Jormag's Story with New Expac Reveal — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home Lore

Jormag's Story with New Expac Reveal

Poormany.4507Poormany.4507 Member ✭✭✭
edited March 12, 2020 in Lore

With the new expac reveal pretty much revealing Cantha as the next expac, what do people think it will mean for Jormag's story? It would seem really rushed if Jormag's killed off in less than a season, so I'm guessing his threat prediction may be true. What do y'all think? How will Jormag's story be transitioned into Cantha?

<1

Comments

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As hyped as I am for the expansion.. freaking CANTHA!!!! AHHHHH!!!
    Ahem, composure.. sanity.. ok, I'm good :D

    I expect it will be a good while before we actually get to play the expansion, very late this year at the earliest is a prediction I've been seeing but I highly doubt we'll be playing it until Q2-3 next year at the earliest.

    Frankly I do not mind the wait, the longer the development time for Cantha the bigger and better it will be when it does come out.
    Gw2's had a bit of a hit/miss relationship with expansions, one of the main criticisms being that they're kind of small... So I am hoping that this expansion is going to be that big traditional expansion that so many of us have been wanting for many years now ^^

    That doesn't mean that Cantha is completely off the table till the expansion though, there's no reason the living world can't take us there first and set us up on Shing Jea Island before the expansion drops which then opens up a huge amount of the mainland for us to explore.

    I expect we'll be playing Icebrood saga for a good while yet, and probably another season of living world after it that will setup the expansion.
    I am completely fine with that personally, Just knowing that another expansion is coming and it's taking me back to my favourite region in Gw1 is more than enough to keep me interested and excited for upcoming Gw2 content ^^

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Episodes 3/4 will take place in Woodland Cascades, which pretty much makes a 100% confirmation that ArenaNet is just revisiting EotN areas, and not taking us anywhere new. This would suggest Episode 5/6 and 7/8 maps will be in Varajar Fells, Norrheart Domains, Battledepths, and Ice Cliff Chasm, most likely.

    Assuming that the expansion takes place at the end of Icebrood Saga, and not that we'll have a Season 6 inbetween, then here's my theories:

    Theory One: We find a way to put Jormag back to sleep, either in the form of forcing it or an agreement. Then we learn that the DSD has attacked Cantha and they're asking for our assistance. AKA the boring theory.

    Theory Two: Jormag isn't "dealt with" at all, but reveals to us the nature of the new threat on the horizons: a new Elder Dragon has risen, one that replaces both Zhaitan and Mordremoth in ways that shouldn't be possible, it rivals all remaining Elder Dragons, and it is sending its forces to Tyria for conquest. Jormag gives us an ultimatum: we agree to an alliance, or it sits back and watches us in our inevitable failure because Aurene, having gained so much magic that Joko's pitiful amount was utterly subsumed, is no longer immortal. Jormag wants the cycle to end one way or another, and will be satisfied with death through Aurene's failure if we refuse to cooperate. Being stubborn dumbasses that the Commander is, we refuse, and Jormag wakes from the ice and takes its forces back north. Then the threat appears: an armada of ships depicting the emblem of a dragon empire, all its sailors augmented by strange energies that mix shadow, star, and mind together. Kuunavang has become an Elder Dragon and has conquered the Canthan empire as the new Elder Celestial Dragon.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I expect it will be a good while before we actually get to play the expansion, very late this year at the earliest is a prediction I've been seeing but I highly doubt we'll be playing it until Q2-3 next year at the earliest.

    We have confirmation of 8 episodes, with Episode 3 coming Mid-May more or less.
    Even if we make a very optimistic view of Mid-April, we're looking at 12 months after for the rest of Icebrood Saga. Mid-April at the absolute earliest.

    But I suspect we'll get more Visions of the Past, either between every map, between every third episode, or between every two maps. Short case scenario, we'll see the expansion in Mid-July 2021. Long case scenario, Mid-November 2021.

    That doesn't mean that Cantha is completely off the table till the expansion though, there's no reason the living world can't take us there first and set us up on Shing Jea Island before the expansion drops which then opens up a huge amount of the mainland for us to explore.

    I highly doubt this. LW Seasons are always rushed, and with our back and forth between Bangar and Jormag, so will Icebrood Saga. More so if the last two episodes' shared map ends up being a completely different plot. That would mean we only have one map after Woodland Cascades to deal with Bangar and Jormag entirely.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Episodes 3/4 will take place in Woodland Cascades, which pretty much makes a 100% confirmation that ArenaNet is just revisiting EotN areas, and not taking us anywhere new. This would suggest Episode 5/6 and 7/8 maps will be in Varajar Fells, Norrheart Domains, Battledepths, and Ice Cliff Chasm, most likely.

    I think this theory forgets that the trailer for Visions of the Past shows off a new map(we can even see a strike mission portal behind one of the new Steel Warband characters,) which makes it unlikely that the map is just an instance for the visions. This map will likely get its own portal scroll, and its pretty likely we are going to get a portal scroll for the tome for the Eye of the North, much like how Sun's Refuge got one as well. I doubt there will be an episode 7/8.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There was once something stated to be worse slumbering in cantha, worse than the elder dragons and worse than anything we know of that resides on tyria. Perhaps jormag is speaking of that? This thing was related to the leviathans that resided on the island, It was said whatever was tied to them they would be something horrifying and potentially cataclysmic.

    Perhaps Kanaxai could play a role, or even the stone forest and the Oni? Perhaps jormag is warrning us the threat is coming from cantha and THAT is what it intends to protect all of us from "I can freeze the sea, I can set you free and keep you from sinking into the depths" was the vibe I got from the announcement trailer for the saga. So My bet is something in the jade sea is what jormag is talking about.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    There was once something stated to be worse slumbering in cantha, worse than the elder dragons and worse than anything we know of that resides on tyria. Perhaps jormag is speaking of that? This thing was related to the leviathans that resided on the island, It was said whatever was tied to them they would be something horrifying and potentially cataclysmic.

    I don't recall anything of the sort. There has been pretty much zero lore on Cantha beyond isolationism and xenophobia for the entirety of GW2 lore. So chances are you're either thinking of something else, or heard player speculation. There's definitely no lore about the Leviathans being anything other than just giant sea wurms.

    A long, long time ago, there were players who thought, for some reason, that the deep sea dragon was hibernating in The Deep of the Jade Sea, though this got disproven pretty much before it came to be.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    There was once something stated to be worse slumbering in cantha, worse than the elder dragons and worse than anything we know of that resides on tyria. Perhaps jormag is speaking of that? This thing was related to the leviathans that resided on the island, It was said whatever was tied to them they would be something horrifying and potentially cataclysmic.

    I don't recall anything of the sort. There has been pretty much zero lore on Cantha beyond isolationism and xenophobia for the entirety of GW2 lore. So chances are you're either thinking of something else, or heard player speculation. There's definitely no lore about the Leviathans being anything other than just giant sea wurms.

    A long, long time ago, there were players who thought, for some reason, that the deep sea dragon was hibernating in The Deep of the Jade Sea, though this got disproven pretty much before it came to be.

    Could be the emperor of the source of his power. We know he hates ANYTHING not human and it could also give credence to bangars fears due the racism and hatred as well power of the emperor and the type of other worldly powers he posseses. (Shiro was unworthy, and not a proper vessel for it so he didn't retain all the power and his death alone devestated cantha. Now imagine a proper vessel and one who could wield it properly becoming an enemy.)

    To be fair you're probably right about the origin of where my initial thought came from, I am concerned however that they will make this nartuo kitten land and not the cantha I remember( The place I started my journey.) Hopefully they can do it justice... unlike how they've handled this saga thus far.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It was Usoku who was xenophobic. Usoku should be long dead by now, given he reigned 200 years before GW2. The current emperor should be his grandson (or son who's 100+ years old at best).

    "Shiro's power" that caused the Jade Wind was an annual blessing from Dwayna that the Canthan Emperors use to benefit the Canthan harvests. Shiro used dark rituals (no doubt guided by Abaddon's teachings) to twist that blessing into power which would turn into the Jade Wind when he unleashed his death wail (he tried to cause another one at the end of Factions, but the acolytes of Suun intercepted the spellcasting and turned it in on Shiro himself). There wasn't anything that Shiro was unworthy about - it got unleashed because Shiro chose to unleash it in his final moments (the first time, he was nearly cut in half by Archemorus and Saint Viktor before unleashing the Jade Wind - his death was guaranteed at that point).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sykper.6583Sykper.6583 Member ✭✭✭

    Honestly I'm in a bit of agreement with Konig, Jormag likely knows something and possibly could 'convince' us to break away from chasing him down for a time to deal with DSD.
    I like to imagine Jormag of Ice and DSD of Water might not actually get along too well. At least that's what I speculate, Jormag needs our help since DSD has been effectively uncontested in Canthan territory.
    I could toss out theories all day but I don't think Arenanet would rush killing another ED in a living story so quickly.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The Visions of the Past maps are story instances, not open world.

    Then explain this shot in the trailer

    We can clearly see a Strike Mission portal behind one of the Steel Warband characters during the trailer. Are you suggesting there is going to be a strike mission, a group experience, inside a story instance you could play alone? How would that even work? You go into a story instance... to go into a raid?

    This would also add up with what That_Shaman posted some time ago that Anet made changes to the landscape OUTSIDE the Eye of the North, in areas we cant normally see. If this release was just the EoTN base, there would be no reason to make those changes as we would still be unable to go outside. This makes it likely there will be some sort of new map area to explore in/around the Eye, and not just the EoTN getting turned into a base, and some instanced story missions.

    And it would fit with this shot in the trailer

    where we see the player characters standing in front of a Wolf shrine, that doesn't appear to be anywhere currently in the game I can think off of the top of my head, sporting some of the new armor.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    For reference, when Season 4's scroll was found, Sun's Refuge was marked as "Season 4Episode 4 Suns Refuge" - if they did have plans for EotN I imagine it'd have been labeled "Season 5 Episode 2 EotN". https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EPc9YLKXUAENuGf?format=png&name=small

    This is actually incorrect. I remember this specifically, when that_shaman originally data-mined the portal tome, it listed 7 episodes, it was only later, after Suns Refuge came out, that they changed the listing of one of said episodes to the Suns' Refuge. Anet isn't that stupid as to spoil something like sun's refuge or EoTN before it officially announces, especially when they know the tomes get mined.

    As I recall, we even had a discussion about this when it did change, because you already felt 7 episodes was too short, and were even more disappointed there was only actually going to be 6.

  • The second screen is in Cragstead, @Sajuuk Khar.1509

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭

    @Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324 said:
    The second screen is in Cragstead, @Sajuuk Khar.1509

    Touche.

    Still, the first pic has a strike portal in it, doesn't make sense they would have a strike portal inside something that is a story mission instance.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324 said:
    The second screen is in Cragstead, @Sajuuk Khar.1509

    Touche.

    Still, the first pic has a strike portal in it, doesn't make sense they would have a strike portal inside something that is a story mission instance.

    It might be how you access the ls1 scrying stuff and it’s avreuse if assets although that seems a bit jarring

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    It might be how you access the ls1 scrying stuff and it’s avreuse if assets although that seems a bit jarring

    I would presume you would access the LWS1 stuff either through the pool itself, or it becomes part of the story journal.

    Having to go into one of these "vision of the past" story missions, where you play as one of the charr characters, to enter a separate story instance to play the LWS1 stuff, doesn't make sense.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I wouldn't assume they will rush things. It's still a long way to go until expac.

    I rather choose death.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 14, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The Visions of the Past maps are story instances, not open world.

    Then explain this shot in the trailer

    We can clearly see a Strike Mission portal behind one of the Steel Warband characters during the trailer. Are you suggesting there is going to be a strike mission, a group experience, inside a story instance you could play alone? How would that even work? You go into a story instance... to go into a raid?

    We are told there is a "public mission" which is Ryland and his warband's recruits. Which that screenshot is clearly depicting.

    That's likely the entry/exit to that mission, using the Strikes portal for whatever reason.

    Public Mission: Join the Steel Warband
    Meet Ryland Steelcatcher’s companions and accompany them on a high-stakes mission to battle the Ancient Forgeman. Best of all, your job is to blow stuff to smithereens with a cutting-edge charr tank.

    Since it's a public mission, it will no doubt have a means to leave. A portal is the perfect method.

    This would also add up with what That_Shaman posted some time ago that Anet made changes to the landscape OUTSIDE the Eye of the North, in areas we cant normally see. If this release was just the EoTN base, there would be no reason to make those changes as we would still be unable to go outside. This makes it likely there will be some sort of new map area to explore in/around the Eye, and not just the EoTN getting turned into a base, and some instanced story missions.

    Or the hub will include the outside of the base, like being able to go to Gwen's garden. None of that implies a full blown map. Especially since nothing in the trailer looks like Ice Cliff Chasm - it's either shots of S1 instances (that second image, as stated, is Cragstead) or are part of the Ryland missions.

    Even if we do assume that there is an open world map, it is very clear that the portal in your first screenshot is not Ice Cliff Chasm but in charr territory. At best, if we get a new map - or a second hub for the new public mission - it'll be connected to Grothmar.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    For reference, when Season 4's scroll was found, Sun's Refuge was marked as "Season 4Episode 4 Suns Refuge" - if they did have plans for EotN I imagine it'd have been labeled "Season 5 Episode 2 EotN". https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EPc9YLKXUAENuGf?format=png&name=small

    This is actually incorrect. I remember this specifically, when that_shaman originally data-mined the portal tome, it listed 7 episodes, it was only later, after Suns Refuge came out, that they changed the listing of one of said episodes to the Suns' Refuge. Anet isn't that stupid as to spoil something like sun's refuge or EoTN before it officially announces, especially when they know the tomes get mined.

    That_shaman actually only said "something, something, seven" in relation to the Season 4 portal tome. He never listed how they were described in the dat.

    As I recall, we even had a discussion about this when it did change, because you already felt 7 episodes was too short, and were even more disappointed there was only actually going to be 6.

    Ironically enough, our positions on the last discussion was reversed, where I didn't trust them to have put all entries in immediately. Whereas now you're the one saying they didn't.

    And it should be noted that ArenaNet explicitly stated they had no portal stone/scroll plans as of the Friday after Episode 2! Which means there would be no entry in the dat because there was no plans for such an entry even days after the release.

    If such an entry was added, it was added after Episode 2's launch, meaning after that_shaman's blog post, and he hasn't made mention of it being updated.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    That's likely the entry/exit to that mission, using the Strikes portal for whatever reason.

    That, again, makes little sense. If its an instanced public mission, why does it have an Asuran waypoint in it?

    Waypoints generally don't appear in missions. Instead they just use some convenient "safe" spot as a reload spot if you die. An Asuran waypoint suggests you can just transport to this area normally like any other, which would mean the map exists outside of just the instanced story missions.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Even if we do assume that there is an open world map, it is very clear that the portal in your first screenshot is not Ice Cliff Chasm but in charr territory. At best, if we get a new map - or a second hub for the new public mission - it'll be connected to Grothmar.

    Being connected to Grothmar doesn't change much TBH. We already saw how big of a map they were willing to make for a simple prologue chapter, that they didn't even consider a full episode.

    We see shots of both Charr areas, and deep mountain areas with Dwarven ruins, in the trailer, making a Bound by Blood sized map would allow them to easily fit both topographies we see in the trailer, as well kitten include the EoTN.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    That's likely the entry/exit to that mission, using the Strikes portal for whatever reason.

    That, again, makes little sense. If its an instanced public mission, why does it have an Asuran waypoint in it?
    -snip image-
    Waypoints generally don't appear in missions. Instead they just use some convenient "safe" spot as a reload spot if you die. An Asuran waypoint suggests you can just transport to this area normally like any other, which would mean the map exists outside of just the instanced story missions.

    And yet, that shot is very clearly of the public mission, because the shot shows a member of the Steel Warband.

    Keep in mind this is not a strike mission. It doesn't have to play by the rule of strike missions, or that of raids. Nor are these story missions. And waypoints do exist in dungeons, so they're not "never inside group instances" either.

    This is a brand new style of content, which means they'll use brand new rules to them. Given that this is clearly a lengthy mission - as shown by how we got shots of both Charr territory and shiverpeak areas - it'd not unlikely to be using waypoints. Raids didn't need waypoints because they had rifts from the mastery; strikes don't need them because they are so tiny; story missions don't use them because archaic spaghetti code.

    But none of that means these new instances cannot, let alone won't, use them.

    Nothing says it's a new map, nothing we've been told says new map. And the shot you keep referencing shows a historical NPC within the mission that is viewing past events. So unless they make an entire map that is purely based in past events - which, imo, is very unlikely but not impossible - then this isn't a new map that's coming out with zero mention or hint of such.

    Being connected to Grothmar doesn't change much TBH. We already saw how big of a map they were willing to make for a simple prologue chapter, that they didn't even consider a full episode.

    We see shots of both Charr areas, and deep mountain areas with Dwarven ruins, in the trailer, making a Bound by Blood sized map would allow them to easily fit both topographies we see in the trailer, as well kitten include the EoTN.

    TBH, I would not say that's a Bound By Blood sized map. Especially from the footage - we see at the base of a mountain, and within it; for all we know, it's the same size as Shiverpeak Pass strike. But I'm expecting a map on par to the raids wings And the new mission is very clearly not going to the Eye of the North - it's literally taking us through dwarven ruins. The entrance shows dwarven ruins, and so does the apparent end (assuming the fire Iron Forgeman is the end-boss).

    To use Grothmar as an example: both topographies fit easily within Shiverpeak Pass and Training Grounds. So a Grothmar-sized map is definitely not necessary.

    But like I said, I'm expecting something on par to a single raid wing, like Spirit Vale. That wing has three topographies, too - jungle, ghostly ruins, and tree huts/bridges. With and without overlooking the other two from any one.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Jormag's been making a big thing about a threat on the horizon, and how ice fortifies and protects, trying to insinuate itself as the only ally that can save us from this danger. With the possibility of it being the deep sea dragon, we don't really need Jormag's ability to save us, we simply have to travel to Cantha and learn the dark rituals that allowed Shiro Tagachi to corrupt Dwayna's magic that eventually unleashed the Jade Wind turning the Jade Sea into solid jade. We would have an effective weapon or defensive measure with which to combat the dragon, or at least slow it down.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I am curious. After the vision, Rytlock tells us Bangar is close to Jormag but has gone North. I thought Jormag fell to sleep near Bitterfrost as per the S3 dialogue?

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Albione.3894 said:
    Jormag's been making a big thing about a threat on the horizon, and how ice fortifies and protects, trying to insinuate itself as the only ally that can save us from this danger. With the possibility of it being the deep sea dragon, we don't really need Jormag's ability to save us, we simply have to travel to Cantha and learn the dark rituals that allowed Shiro Tagachi to corrupt Dwayna's magic that eventually unleashed the Jade Wind turning the Jade Sea into solid jade. We would have an effective weapon or defensive measure with which to combat the dragon, or at least slow it down.

    I doubt that would be of any use. It was Dwayna’s magic supposedly and I think it’s implied that he expelled it and dispersed it/used it. Don’t think there’s anything for us to use or go around and collect.

  • @Albione.3894 said:
    Jormag's been making a big thing about a threat on the horizon, and how ice fortifies and protects, trying to insinuate itself as the only ally that can save us from this danger. With the possibility of it being the deep sea dragon, we don't really need Jormag's ability to save us, we simply have to travel to Cantha and learn the dark rituals that allowed Shiro Tagachi to corrupt Dwayna's magic that eventually unleashed the Jade Wind turning the Jade Sea into solid jade. We would have an effective weapon or defensive measure with which to combat the dragon, or at least slow it down.

    It's interesting because, first, Jormag doesn't have any foresight ability, at least not that we know. And second, one of Jormag's sphere of influence is persuasion. But at the same time, it feels that there is some truth to that warning. And after the recent announcement, it's obviously becoming more apparent. After our final confrontation with Kralk, the Elder Dragons are not as one-dimensional, devour-all, type of entities.

    Our current threat right now is basically Bangar who wants to awaken Jormag who is now still dormant, not sure how he plans to awaken the dragon though. Because if we can stop him, there is practically not much active EDs threat in Tyria. But from the IBS trailer, it seems like he's gonna be successful. It would be interesting to see how they gonna resolve IBS and ties it with the next expac (assuming the expac will be released subsequently after IBS). From past interview, their narrative team kinda mentioned something about writing future story not focused on Elder Dragons, but around Elder Dragons. Like they mentioned how if you watch movie about disasters the big baddy usually is another human, and the disaster only used as a setting of the story. Imagine that disaster is the Elder Dragons, and now we got Bangar as the actual baddy. Not sure if they gonna continue with this formula or not, but if so it would be interesting who will be this next non-dragon antagonist.

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    I am curious. After the vision, Rytlock tells us Bangar is close to Jormag but has gone North. I thought Jormag fell to sleep near Bitterfrost as per the S3 dialogue?

    Jormag is indeed sleeping. Even in the last instance of Ep1 Jormag did mention that they're slumbering beneath the ice (at least I take it literally). But I suppose Elder Dragons always have some capacity to manifest their presence through non-physical form (e.g. Mordremoth who could reach out to Scarlett as she opened herself) as well as through their corrupted minions in Tyria. I guess by slumber it means their physical-self is dormant as they got no energy (or magic) to wake up. At least I see it that way since Mordremoth only actually active once Scarlett reroute some leylines toward him.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    I am curious. After the vision, Rytlock tells us Bangar is close to Jormag but has gone North. I thought Jormag fell to sleep near Bitterfrost as per the S3 dialogue?

    That isn't the only mention of needing to go further north to get to Jormag, which indeed does contradict Season 3's lore.

    One possible explanation is that Jormag flew back north while Braham was hunting it. If this is the case, this would definitely explain why Bangar thinks the bow would be useful - though he does claim it's just a rallying cry and not necessary to subdue Jormag (how far up his own kitten can his head be?) - as such an event could be seen as Jormag "fleeing" from Braham and his bow.

    @ErickDntn.1847 said:
    Jormag is indeed sleeping. Even in the last instance of Ep1 Jormag did mention that they're slumbering beneath the ice (at least I take it literally). But I suppose Elder Dragons always have some capacity to manifest their presence through non-physical form (e.g. Mordremoth who could reach out to Scarlett as she opened herself) as well as through their corrupted minions in Tyria. I guess by slumber it means their physical-self is dormant as they got no energy (or magic) to wake up. At least I see it that way since Mordremoth only actually active once Scarlett reroute some leylines toward him.

    You misunderstood Randulf, who is confused about Jormag's location, not whether or not its still asleep. In Season 3 Episode 3, it's said that Jormag has made its home in a tundra just beyond Bitterfrost Frontier (which is why the zone was given such a name, and why The Bitter Cold area is so darn cold - it's so darn close to Jormag who's freezing the area so thoroughly).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2020

    @ErickDntn.1847 said:
    Jormag is indeed sleeping. Even in the last instance of Ep1 Jormag did mention that they're slumbering beneath the ice (at least I take it literally). But I suppose Elder Dragons always have some capacity to manifest their presence through non-physical form (e.g. Mordremoth who could reach out to Scarlett as she opened herself) as well as through their corrupted minions in Tyria. I guess by slumber it means their physical-self is dormant as they got no energy (or magic) to wake up. At least I see it that way since Mordremoth only actually active once Scarlett reroute some leylines toward him.

    That is not what I was saying. Jormag should be asleep much further south as per S3 alluding to where it fell into the ice. Unless it moved after ep3 of S3, so why would Bangar be going to North to it?

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    You misunderstood Randulf, who is confused about Jormag's location, not whether or not its still asleep. In Season 3 Episode 3, it's said that Jormag has made its home in a tundra just beyond Bitterfrost Frontier (which is why the zone was given such a name, and why The Bitter Cold area is so darn cold - it's so darn close to Jormag who's freezing the area so thoroughly).
    @Randulf.7614 said:
    That is not what I was saying. Jormag should be asleep much further south as per S3 alluding to where it fell into the ice. Unless it moved after ep3 of S3, so why would Bangar be going to North to it?

    Aah yeah sorry my bad. Oop :lol:

  • JTGuevara.9018JTGuevara.9018 Member ✭✭✭

    My guess is that Jormag's story will be revealed at the end of Icebrood Saga, and Bangar is going to pay the price. Bangar will realize that he screwed up big time in getting tricked into awakening Jormag under the pretense of "harnessing" his power. He gets killed off.

    Jormag's plan may involve, I would think the DSD, going into the Cantha.

  • NorthernRedStar.3054NorthernRedStar.3054 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2020

    Interestingly enough, Bangar does mention about extending his charr empire 'all the way to Cantha'. Maybe all the players in this mess aren't getting killed at the end of the day, and the story doesn't quite the spin the way we expect it to.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @NorthernRedStar.3054 said:
    Interestingly enough, Bangar does mention about extending his charr empire 'all the way to Cantha'. Maybe all the players in this mess aren't getting killed at the end of the day, and the story doesn't quite the spin the way we expect it to.

    I noticed that too. I rarely read too much into throwaway lines like this, but it caught my attention

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    I am curious. After the vision, Rytlock tells us Bangar is close to Jormag but has gone North. I thought Jormag fell to sleep near Bitterfrost as per the S3 dialogue?

    Yeah I know what piece of dialogue your speaking of.

    Rytlock Brimstone: Bangar's forces have trekked pretty far north. He's almost made it to Jormag, and when that happens—well, no one knows.

    Could just be the wording, advising that he army had gone north in a past tense and possibly in comparison to their current location at the EOTN.

  • Maybe Jormag is just a restless sleeper and rolled over a couple hundred miles...

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2020

    I think Jormag dies before we get to Cantha. The question is who kills them and why. In Still Waters, Wolf Spirit tells Braham that; "You cracked the Fang of the Serpent. Fate now decrees you will either slay Jormag or fall to Jormag." I think it is likely that Braham deals the final blow with Eir's bow. We will just pretend that everyone is acting sufficiently worried about the bow's potency, we can't have people learn from past encounters with potent anti-dragon weapons. If Eir's bow isn't used, then we will need to discover some other potent weapon. As to why we kill Jormag; his plan may be to end the Elder dragon cycle by freezing all Tyria. In their mind Tyria would be "saved" from the cycle of death by preserving everything in ice.

    I'm even more confident that we are going to learn more about the Elder dragon cycle and the All and then use that knowledge to change how the All functions. We won't be plugging Aurene's children or other entities into the cosmic mechanism because it is too easy for the mechanism to drive its conscious parts insane. We will have to figure out how to fundamentally reconfigure the cosmic machine. My wild guess for Cantha....

    The Tengu have been protecting a clan of dragons that could become Elder dragons. This clan has developed techniques that hide them from the Elder dragons and allow them to cycle magic without succumbing to pathological hunger or All corruption. They share this knowledge with other races and each race develops techniques for cycling magic. Cities could become part of the cosmic mechanism. I would love to see Aurene shed her Elder Dragon status, channeling her magic into a newly configured All, and then joining a dragon people. I like this approach because it isn't the typical frustrated or vicarious resolution of the the power fantasy the studio usually delivers. We can't pursue the power fantasy to the point where the PC becomes an Elder dragon or god so someone else gets the power. My approach would distribute the power among many.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The issue with Jormag's death this season is where the replacement comes in. Unless Kuunavang swoops in and magic-steals when Braham or someone kills Jormag, how will the world avoid going "blargh" as Taimi so eloquently put it in S3/PoF?

    I'm doubtful of any sort of non-living replacement setup. Cities, being just basic brick and mortar, makes no sense as becoming replacement to Elder Dragons - and even if the idea is "spreading to those living in cities", then that just creates the issue of elitism among equals (those who live in cities become much greater than those not). Also not really sure how such would happen - or why Tengu harboring "high dragons" would mean they could make objects and/or other people fulfill the roles that high dragons could.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2020

    If an Elder dragon's death is important, why isn't anyone talking about the full risk Bangar poses? Braham's bow doesn't work to rally Charr to his cause unless it is a potent anti-Jormag weapon. Bangar is as dangerous as Balthazar and we only talk about Ryland's fate and the effect of who gets credit for killing Drakkar. Obviously, we should also be frantic about replacements. I think the absence of obvious questions and dialog is telling. A studio that only pays for the minimum of words isn't spending money on irrelevant plot points.

    Since Aurene's ascension, Taimi's claimed that everything she knew about Elder dragons may be wrong. Aurene has new abilities the make her more resilient to the demands of the All. Aurene tells us that she is discovering deeper knowledge of the All. She knows more about the All than Tiami. Them working together would reveal even more about the All. The six sphere All configuration plot isn't as strong as it used to be. I just don't see us going on to plug more Elder beings into the All magitech. Being an Elder being looks dangerous. The likeliness of going mad and doing Elder damage is high. Suppose Elder beings are tasked with keeping magic flowing and growing. How easy to loose sight of mortals, of civilizations and make decisions about what is best for themselves or an abstract philosophy for All efficiency. Aurene alone in the machine may be the greatest threat.

    The term high dragons works. I think there is a song about their leader. High dragons would practice magic that demonstrated their knowledge of the All. Taimi would tell us that high dragons are natural masters of the Eternal Alchemy. "It would look like all these columns of symbols moving and flowing everywhere. They see it! They see the Eternal Alchemy!" Plugging cities into the All-chemy is the very limit of what I would believe possible. High dragons would be studying ways to run All-chemy without needing and eliminating the potential, for Elder beings. They could have madly effective temple magic. Cities and other places that receive magi-prayer could be given life enough.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Micky.3648Micky.3648 Member ✭✭
    edited March 21, 2020

    Srsly, is no one tired of repeating the cycle of "i saw i came i conquered"? One Dragon rises, commander comes and takes a look, bomb! Dragon gets killed.

    Can we have something different for this time?
    Maybe Jormag is really trying to be helpful? Maybe the terrible thing Jormag mentioned who lurk beyond the horizon is DSD? Maybe DSD has become super charged after all these years hiding in the background absorbing all the magic, and this terrifies Jormag.

    Before We had 2 options to deal with a Dragon Rise.

    1) Kill it. find a replacement.
    2) Somehow drain its magic and put it back to sleep. ( what Bathazar did, with the help of Omadd's Machine )

    But with Jormag's help, this is the first time ever that we have a 3rd option.

    3) To contain an Elder Drgaon without killing it. If we can weaken DSD enough to the point allowing Jormag to freeze the whole ocean, confining the dragon within?

    This can solves a lot of problem.

    1) Explains who is the "terrible thing" Jormag mentioned and why Jormag needs us, he can not confront an overpowered DSD alone,

    2) If Anet is still actively developing GW2. At some point we have to face DSD, we know Anet has been trying to minimize underwater contents for years, but If we are to face the Sea Dragon, they have to deal with underwater contents, If that's the case. why don't we just ask Jormag for help? to freeze the ocean minimizing the underwater contents.

    3) People always want to know the whereabout of DSD, and if we are to go to Cantha. she will be a good reason.

    4) Teaming up with an Elder Dragon a villain temporarily also gives room for lot of drama, tension and uncertainty, All of these if handled properly, can achieve a very interesting story, a different kind of story.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    @Micky.3648 said:
    Srsly, is no one tired of repeating the cycle of "i saw i came i conquered"? One Dragon rises, commander comes and takes a look, bomb! Dragon gets killed.

    Can we have something different for this time?
    Maybe Jormag is really trying to be helpful? Maybe the terrible thing Jormag mentioned who lurk beyond the horizon is DSD? Maybe DSD has become super charged after all these years hiding in the background absorbing all the magic, and this terrifies Jormag.

    Before We had 2 options to deal with a Dragon Rise.

    1) Kill it. find a replacement.
    2) Somehow drain its magic and put it back to sleep. ( what Bathazar did, with the help of Omadd's Machine )

    But with Jormag's help, this is the first time ever that we have a 3rd option.

    3) To contain an Elder Drgaon without killing it. If we can weaken DSD enough to the point allowing Jormag to freeze the whole ocean, confining the dragon within?

    This can solves a lot of problem.

    1) Explains who is the "terrible thing" Jormag mentioned and why Jormag needs us, he can not confront an overpowered DSD alone,

    2) If Anet is still actively developing GW2. At some point we have to face DSD, we know Anet has been trying to minimize underwater contents for years, but If we are to face the Sea Dragon, they have to deal with underwater contents, If that's the case. why don't we just ask Jormag for help? to freeze the ocean minimizing the underwater contents.

    3) People always want to know the whereabout of DSD, and if we are to go to Cantha. she will be a good reason.

    4) Teaming up with an Elder Dragon a villain temporarily also gives room for lot of drama, tension and uncertainty, All of these if handled properly, can achieve a very interesting story, a different kind of story.

    I want us to go in a different direction as well. Your reason #2 is funny but also true. The way to avoid underwater combat is to freeze the water. However, even if we team up with Jormag and defeat the DSD we still would need Elder dragon replacements. We would still be on a similar narrative treadmill of killing Elder dragons and finding replacement Elder dragons. If we change the requirement for replacements we could still partner with Jormag which could be interesting. I am just convinced that being an Elder part of the All drives Elders mad. Jormag, Primordius, and the DSD may be beyond saving. Jormag is actively "consuming" mortals.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Micky.3648Micky.3648 Member ✭✭

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    I want us to go in a different direction as well. Your reason #2 is funny but also true. The way to avoid underwater combat is to freeze the water. However, even if we team up with Jormag and defeat the DSD we still would need Elder dragon replacements. We would still be on a similar narrative treadmill of killing Elder dragons and finding replacement Elder dragons. If we change the requirement for replacements we could still partner with Jormag which could be interesting. I am just convinced that being an Elder part of the All drives Elders mad. Jormag, Primordius, and the DSD may be beyond saving. Jormag is actively "consuming" mortals.

    I mean we don't need a replacement, We just trap the weakened DSD within the ice from Jormag.

  • @Micky.3648 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    I want us to go in a different direction as well. Your reason #2 is funny but also true. The way to avoid underwater combat is to freeze the water. However, even if we team up with Jormag and defeat the DSD we still would need Elder dragon replacements. We would still be on a similar narrative treadmill of killing Elder dragons and finding replacement Elder dragons. If we change the requirement for replacements we could still partner with Jormag which could be interesting. I am just convinced that being an Elder part of the All drives Elders mad. Jormag, Primordius, and the DSD may be beyond saving. Jormag is actively "consuming" mortals.

    I mean we don't need a replacement, We just trap the weakened DSD within the ice from Jormag.

    I think the importance of a replacement is not really to necessarily have another good dragon but to have something else that can regulate the magic flow in Tyria. To backpedal a little, the whole premise we stopped Balthazar killing Kralkatorrik is that even though he was active, killing him would bring catastrophic outcome because he is so integral in a way that he prevent Tyria from blowing up from magical overload by absorbing these magic/energy (through destruction), and release them slowly once back dormant.

    Now I'm wondering if you stuff an Elder Dragon with magic til it goes to sleep, then somehow 'seal' it, what's going to happen? Will the magic keep seeping out? what happen if all the magic released? Is it even possible to keep an Elder Dragon sealed/prisoned/frozen when it is hungry? Or alternatively what will happen to Tyria if no magic that it is consumed being released? Will Tyria go boom in any magical imbalance, either excess or deficit, situation? Probably yes(?)

  • PseudoNewb.5468PseudoNewb.5468 Member ✭✭✭

    The speculation on replacement, and the lack of any for Jormag, has me thinking about a few things fro Path of Fire that we really don't seem to have a conclusion. Vlast, seems to be much more knowledgeable of Glint's legacy, and he, on his demise, has left some interesting words that have yet to seem to have passed.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Sacrifice

    Vlast: It was created so mortals could do the work of dragons, of our line.
    Vlast: To combat cataclysmic power and prevent the destruction of all life.

    Glint's legacy has certainly not been fully realized, if the intent is for mortals to wield the power of dragons themselves. Even Aurene's own ascension does not fulfill this notion of mortals balancing magic. Aurene isn't on of the mortals, even if she is sympathetic with them, she doesn't currently have mortals doing her work. Instead she is taking the burden of dealing with whatever havoc is going, and restoring the mists, on herself. She asks the commander to keep watch on Bangar, and the charr situation, but that isn't related to draconic powers/responsibilities.

    Vlast: I feel trapped in this role...in this "legacy." I yearn for freedom, but I cannot turn away from these responsibilities.

    Vlast seems to have had trouble working with Glint's legacy. And very specifically calls out how it works against his own freedom. Vlast's and now Aurene's role in shaping Glint's legacy with respect to having mortals do the work of dragons is unclear. But I have to wonder if Vlast's mention of freedom is simply referring to being beholden to responsibility, or is it a more literal sense of being enslaved as a result of allowing Glint's legacy to come to be. If the dragons acquiesce in relinquishing their power to mortals, so that the mortals can do this work, it would certainly be some form of servitude if not slavery.

    Details about these parts of Gling't Legacy seem to not exist, but I have to wonder if Aurene, or Caithe, has learned about them. Are they holding back information from the commander (or Anet holding things far from the players, of course)? Perhaps the dragons can be controlled. And controlling them preempts the need to kill them.

    One thing is clear with the first line quoted here from Vlast. Mortals can, and if the plan comes to pass, will wield the power of the dragons. To do the work of the dragons, mortals would clearly need some sort of power equal to the dragons. That leaves Bangar, and Glint's Legacy in an interesting situation. Glint's legacy instructs that mortals will have control over the powers of dragons, and Bangar wants to find a way to take control over Jormag's power. If Bangar succeeds, he will fulfill that step of Glint's legacy. Of course, the next step is for mortals to use that power to prevent cataclysm and protect life. Bangar, wants to use the dragons power to wage war, clearly antithetical to Glint's wishes.

    Aurene seems cautious about Bangar and what he can achieve. She knows full well that the commander will kill him, but is cautious about when and how that will happen. Perhaps she is following a possible future of taking Jormags power and considering how it works in Glint's legacy. Looking at exactly when his chain of events should be cut to bring everything in line with her vision. Vision's of the past also shows us a few things about Ryland too. He seems to be scheming something potentially to usurp Bangar, and is more sympathetic to the Vigial/Pact than is letting anyone else know. I have to wonder, if Ryland gains control of Jormag, would he use the power to support Glint's legacy? Is that why he is following Bangar?

    I think Jormag may very well become enslaved, and power used on behalf of someone or another. And, if Jormag can be enslaved, and the methods to do it become know, then the remaining two dragons, and the balance of magic, have suddenly become extremely vulnerable.

    And what of Aurene, will she eventually loan her power to the commander, or the pact to fulfill Glint's legacy?

    Vlast: Some advice: if you grow weary of your caretakers, offer a hiss or a swat of your tail and watch them scatter.
    Vlast: Do not let them—or yourself—forget what you are.

    Glint's vision give far too much faith in the hands of mortals. If mortals are given the ability to do the work, of dragons. They would immediately fail, and use it to destroy the world instead...

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    Kralk had visions of mortals and dragons peacefully living and working together. I beleive Glint also makes mention of seeing something similar. I don't think we have to approach the idea of mortals "doing the work of dragons" as meaning that mortals can wield Elder dragons as weapons, enslave them, or be as powerful. It could be similar to the difference between market monopolies and distributed small businesses. Both can do similar economic work but only one is can wield totalitarian control. The Elder dragon problem is analogous to the real world's problem of too-big-to-fail banks.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    If an Elder dragon's death is important, why isn't anyone talking about the full risk Bangar poses? Braham's bow doesn't work to rally Charr to his cause unless it is a potent anti-Jormag weapon. Braham's bow doesn't work to rally Charr to his cause unless it is a potent anti-Jormag weapon. Bangar is as dangerous as Balthazar and we only talk about Ryland's fate and the effect of who gets credit for killing Drakkar. Obviously, we should also be frantic about replacements. I think the absence of obvious questions and dialog is telling. A studio that only pays for the minimum of words isn't spending money on irrelevant plot points.

    Because Bangar's goal isn't to kill an Elder Dragon, it's to control it. This is why everyone's talking about the issues of Bangar trying to control Jormag, and not the issues of killing Jormag. Even if Braham's bow can potentially kill Jormag (which some folks doubt), because it isn't being used with the intent to kill people aren't worried about it.

    Like you said - a studio that pays for the minimum of words isn't spending money on irrelevant plot points. And no one in Tyria have expressed interest in killing Jormag right now. Once someone does, then it'll become a relevant plot point.

    I just don't see us going on to plug more Elder beings into the All magitech. Being an Elder being looks dangerous. The likeliness of going mad and doing Elder damage is high. Suppose Elder beings are tasked with keeping magic flowing and growing. How easy to loose sight of mortals, of civilizations and make decisions about what is best for themselves or an abstract philosophy for All efficiency. Aurene alone in the machine may be the greatest threat.

    The Elder Dragons are already "plugged" into the All, and the entire point of their replacement, and the balance of The All, is that the position of the Elder Dragons must be held by someone. If a "something" could do the job, then we hit the major issue of "why couldn't we do this before? Why didn't the bloodstones do this? Why couldn't Balthazar do this? Why could only scions of Elder Dragons do this until now?"

    The term high dragons works. I think there is a song about their leader. High dragons would practice magic that demonstrated their knowledge of the All. Taimi would tell us that high dragons are natural masters of the Eternal Alchemy. "It would look like all these columns of symbols moving and flowing everywhere. They see it! They see the Eternal Alchemy!" Plugging cities into the All-chemy is the very limit of what I would believe possible. High dragons would be studying ways to run All-chemy without needing and eliminating the potential, for Elder beings. They could have madly effective temple magic. Cities and other places that receive magi-prayer could be given life enough.

    I use the term "high dragon" because ArenaNet labels hydras, wyverns, skyscales, and drakes as "lesser dragons" - and lesser dragons cannot ascend to become Elder Dragons or connect to The All. Sadly, all "high dragons" we know of are now currently Elder Dragons - and to be one, the only known quality of them is that they're scions. Meaning, that unless someone had hidden away children of Zhaitan, Jormag, Mordremoth, Primordus, or the DSD, there are no more high dragons out there. (Side note: One theory I had was that Drakkar was Jormag's scion, but unfortunately ANet decided to slaughter the potential of Drakkar, herald of Jormag, who held the same position of power as Glint and the Great Destroyer, for a subplot of adulthood for Braham and made him get one-shotted by an NPC, not even a proper story battle).

    Which is our number one issue of how to replace the remaining Elder Dragons.

    Even if multiple "high dragons" could spread the burden of the All amongst themselves and not rely on six individuals but many, there's the massive issue of "there are none left" to solve. And if we can get some, then why deviate from the proven plan of six for an unproven plan that is, ultimately, a severely high gamble (as if it doesn't work and we kill an Elder Dragon without a replacement, then the world goes boom).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 21, 2020

    Konig

    Rational people wouldn't look at Bangar and rule out his actions leading to Jormag's death. He is leading an army to confront Jormag. Braham's bow need only be potent and everyone must assume some level of potency. Bangar's threat to the All would be foremost on the Commander's mind. We are always looking out for Tyria. You're approach demands we assume a top down homogeneity of thought among actors. Everyone would only ever talk about what is right under their noses. Experienced Elder dragon fighting armies aren't saying a word about what is right under their noses. The studio is very sparse with words and what I am seeing may be caused by their fugal nature. I doubt it though. They have spent money on words eroding the Six sphere configuration.

    Other attempts to provide replacements failed because people didn't understand the All well enough. It doesn't have to be any more complex than that. Going from 'someone' to 'something' is a stretch, but it doesn't break anything or force retcons, just an increase in knowledge. It would be analogous to going from Newtonian gravity to General Relativity.

    To provide 'high dragons', the studio would have to explain how the dragons first gained control of the All. Elder Dragons couldn't be eternal beings. The studio would have to provide a history for Tyria that includes a deeper understanding of All-chemy or All cosmology. Which isn't the worst thing that could happen.

    How is the six sphere configuration a proven plan? Yes, it runs, but you can't deny that there evidence that it is innately risky for Elder dragons because of how it focuses magic through a small number of magi-minds. Elder dragon pain becomes everyone's pain.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Truth be told, I'm not sure how much of the main cast can be categorized as "rational people".

    I also would disagree myself, and I like to believe I'm a rational person, that Bangar's actions will likely lead to Jormag's death. I feel that if they would, it would be because the Commander and co. were the cause of said actions. So it would be more accurate to say "Dragon's Watch's reaction to Bangar's action will likely lead to Jormag's death". Of course, since they're highly aware of what will happen should they kill Jormag, it's also clear to say that "Dragon's Watch will ensure their actions don't lead to Jormag's death without reliable reasoning that it won't end in world destruction".

    After all, the key part in all of this, is that Bangar has zero intention of killing Jormag. And is so far gone, as that worst case scenario is a legion of charr becoming Icebrood and Jormag rising again, not Jormag's death.

    Plus, as shown with Season 3 and Braham, it would appear that everyone and their mother's is in complete and utter convinced belief that an Elder Dragon in protective hibernation is invulnerable. This refers to both Kralkatorrik's cacoon state in Dragonfall, but also Jormag's beneath-the-ice state as well. Which means the Commander and co. are under the adement impression that Jormag cannot be killed at the moment, and must first be made to rise before they can be killed. So the possibility of Jormag's death, on top of the leading cause of it potentially happening being our team, is viewed as something that can only happen if and only if Jormag rises again.

    How is the six sphere configuration a proven plan? Yes, it runs

    You just answered yourself there.

    Also, the Elder Dragons do not configure The All. This needs to be stressed - the Elder Dragons are pieces of the All, not controllers of the All. The All will always have six spheres, as that is the nature of The All.

    Just as there can never be more or fewer than Six of the Six Gods, there can never be more or fewer of the six spheres of The All. If an Elder Dragon dies, the sphere doesn't disappear, doesn't dissipate, or anything else - it just goes inert as shown to us in Flashpoint's Elder Druid Protection story cinematic.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Truth be told, I'm not sure how much of the main cast can be categorized as "rational people".

    I also would disagree myself, and I like to believe I'm a rational person, that Bangar's actions will likely lead to Jormag's death. I feel that if they would, it would be because the Commander and co. were the cause of said actions. So it would be more accurate to say "Dragon's Watch's reaction to Bangar's action will likely lead to Jormag's death". Of course, since they're highly aware of what will happen should they kill Jormag, it's also clear to say that "Dragon's Watch will ensure their actions don't lead to Jormag's death without reliable reasoning that it won't end in world destruction".

    After all, the key part in all of this, is that Bangar has zero intention of killing Jormag. And is so far gone, as that worst case scenario is a legion of charr becoming Icebrood and Jormag rising again, not Jormag's death.

    Plus, as shown with Season 3 and Braham, it would appear that everyone and their mother's is in complete and utter convinced belief that an Elder Dragon in protective hibernation is invulnerable. This refers to both Kralkatorrik's cacoon state in Dragonfall, but also Jormag's beneath-the-ice state as well. Which means the Commander and co. are under the adement impression that Jormag cannot be killed at the moment, and must first be made to rise before they can be killed. So the possibility of Jormag's death, on top of the leading cause of it potentially happening being our team, is viewed as something that can only happen if and only if Jormag rises again.

    How is the six sphere configuration a proven plan? Yes, it runs

    You just answered yourself there.

    Also, the Elder Dragons do not configure The All. This needs to be stressed - the Elder Dragons are pieces of the All, not controllers of the All. The All will always have six spheres, as that is the nature of The All.

    Just as there can never be more or fewer than Six of the Six Gods, there can never be more or fewer of the six spheres of The All. If an Elder Dragon dies, the sphere doesn't disappear, doesn't dissipate, or anything else - it just goes inert as shown to us in Flashpoint's Elder Druid Protection story cinematic.

    I think we have reached a point where we are repeating ourselves, each unable to agree on the importance of the others evidence. I think you are exaggerating how much we understand the All and that most signs are pointing to a revelation and a change of thinking about the All.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    I think we have reached a point where we are repeating ourselves, each unable to agree on the importance of the others evidence. I think you are exaggerating how much we understand the All and that most signs are pointing to a revelation and a change of thinking about the All.

    There's definitely a lot we don't know, but there's still plenty we do know. I do agree that we're bound to get a revelation about The All and the nature of the Elder Dragons, it just feels like if they go in the route of "we do not need at least four with one per sphere" then our establishment of lore has diminished since what we do know points to exactly that.

    And I, for one, am a fan of maintaining lore, not constantly rewriting it with "revelations" and "plot twists".

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 22, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    There's definitely a lot we don't know, but there's still plenty we do know. I do agree that we're bound to get a revelation about The All and the nature of the Elder Dragons, it just feels like if they go in the route of "we do not need at least four with one per sphere" then our establishment of lore has diminished since what we do know points to exactly that.

    And I, for one, am a fan of maintaining lore, not constantly rewriting it with "revelations" and "plot twists".

    I heavily suspect Aurene being the "prismatic" dragon, who can hold the various energies within her, without them conflicting, or causing "torment" like Kralkatorik had, is the escape route to needing 4-6 separate beings each holding one of the six aspects.

    Unless Kralk's mention of her being "the first of her kind" means she has her own children at some point with similar powers.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    There's definitely a lot we don't know, but there's still plenty we do know. I do agree that we're bound to get a revelation about The All and the nature of the Elder Dragons, it just feels like if they go in the route of "we do not need at least four with one per sphere" then our establishment of lore has diminished since what we do know points to exactly that.

    And I, for one, am a fan of maintaining lore, not constantly rewriting it with "revelations" and "plot twists".

    I heavily suspect Aurene being the "prismatic" dragon, who can hold the various energies within her, without them conflicting, or causing "torment" like Kralkatorik had, is the escape route to needing 4-6 separate beings each holding one of the six aspects.

    Unless Kralk's mention of her being "the first of her kind" means she has her own children at some point with similar powers.

    This is a strong possibility. We learn that the right dragon can run the All alone, the other Elder dragons are coming for Aurene, Jormag's offer to help is sincere or a ploy or both. We could get a more complex version of Nightfall's plot. Which is ok. Just ok. It is reliable, inexpensive, and vicariously satisfying. I admit to being a snob but I want a more complex plot. I think we are going to get one. The only new thing we would need to learn about the All is that non-dragons can be plugged into one of the six spheres. The range of compatible beings could be broad. The broader the range, the easier it is to democratize the payout of the Tyrian power fantasy.

    Cantha presents some real potential. There is a stark difference between Western and Eastern dragon traditions. We have been following the Western dragon power fantasy of Saint George; the hero gains power to slay the dragon and gets power from killing the dragon. The studio will have to appropriate Eastern culture and hopefully decide to pay respects to the Eastern dragon tradition.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • @Psientist.6437 said:
    ....We could get a more complex version of Nightfall's plot....

    We already got another one of those, it was called Path of Fire. :\

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    There's definitely a lot we don't know, but there's still plenty we do know. I do agree that we're bound to get a revelation about The All and the nature of the Elder Dragons, it just feels like if they go in the route of "we do not need at least four with one per sphere" then our establishment of lore has diminished since what we do know points to exactly that.

    And I, for one, am a fan of maintaining lore, not constantly rewriting it with "revelations" and "plot twists".

    I heavily suspect Aurene being the "prismatic" dragon, who can hold the various energies within her, without them conflicting, or causing "torment" like Kralkatorik had, is the escape route to needing 4-6 separate beings each holding one of the six aspects.

    Unless Kralk's mention of her being "the first of her kind" means she has her own children at some point with similar powers.

    Well, from Scion & Champion:

    Glint: You will see, Scion, that absorbing magic comes naturally. But the power, its temptations...they exact a price.
    Glint: Champion, this magic is powerful and dangerous. Share the burden so she can absorb it.

    Glint: Good. Power has many uses, Scion. By choosing to share it and heal wounds, you strengthen your bond with mortals.
    Glint: Remember that bond. As the power grows, so will the dangers. And the temptations.
    Glint: More powerful still, and more dangerous...
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scion_&_Champion#In_Glint.27s_Lair

    Glint, in All or Nothing, pretty much outright tells us that too much magic will be too much for even Aurene to handle. The reason she can handle the magic she has without issue is because of her bond with mortals.

    One could theorize that she would just need to spread her bonding to handle replacing more Elder Dragons (by the end of Season 4, she only really has a bond with Caithe and the Commander, and doesn't really show signs of bonds with other members of Dragon's Watch or the Crystal Bloom just yet). However, if we go back to the origin of the whole "can't kill another Elder Dragon bits:

    Taimi: (big breath) Look, we've discovered that eliminating dragons isn't the best thing for the environment...
    Taimi: But what else were we going to do? Keep them alive and just let 'em eat us?
    Taimi: So we destroy them and deal with the fallout, but... But what if we can't deal with the consequences anymore?
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elder_Druid_Protection#Dialogue

    Sadizi: But when two Elder Dragons were unexpectedly eliminated from the cycle at one time, we believe it created a void.
    Sadizi: A void that caused the system to break down and the collapse to begin.
    Sadizi: The hope was that Glint's legacy would stabilize the cycle.
    Sadizi: We theorize these vacancies must be filled with entities that circulate and share magic rather than hoard it.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Way_Forward#In_Kesho

    Pact Commander: Taimi, focus... When Balthazar died, Kralkatorrik absorbed most of his freed energy.
    Pact Commander: Kralkatorrik's even stronger and more dangerous than ever.
    Taimi: Oh boy. That could seriously accelerate the Elder Dragon imbalance. I should run some worst-case hypotheticals right away.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Small_Victory_(Epilogue)#Dialogue

    Taimi explicitly calls it "the Elder Dragon imbalance", and denotes that even an Elder Dragon becoming so much more powerful than the others can worsen said imbalance, while Sadizi suggests (just as Taimi's simulation does), that multiple entities are needed.

    This shows that we are dealing with two types of balances/imbalances: balance of magic, and balance of The All/Elder Dragons.

    Taimi also says during War Eternal:

    Aurene: Now we must ride...scion and champion. Flush Kralkatorrik...from the Mists.
    Taimi: Right! If he dies in the Mists, that's it. His magic is gone. And so is Tyria.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_End#At_the_Auditorium_2

    Which indicates that even if Aurene replaced Kralkatorrik while Kralkatorrik was in the Mists, thus solving the Elder Dragon balance, the magical balance would get proverbially screwed.

    This would imply that even if Aurene can handle all the magic in the world - thus solving magical balance - through bonds with mortals... that doesn't solve the Elder Dragon balance with The All.

    Whether intentional or not, ArenaNet does seem to have established that there are two types of balances needed to watch out for, and the more critical one (when Elder Dragons aren't in the Mists) is the All/Elder Dragon imbalance of "there must be 4 or more".

    But knowing ANet, that will all get tossed aside, and we'll go with the super boring and overly predictable (literally a player theory since S3 began if not older) of having One True Elder Prismatic Dragon.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2020

    The problem with all of this is that everyone speaking at those times did so under the assumption that Aurene would be like the other Elder Dragons, except nice. But, as Kralkatorik pointed out, she isn't. She is fundamentally different due to her ability to have multiple magics in her, and not having them conflict. Glint's warning in "Scion and Champion" is likely a reference to Kralkatorik's torment, which we already know Aurene is unlikely to suffer from due to the above mentioned non-conflict of magic in her.

    As for Taimi's dialog in "Druid Protection" and "A Small Victory", and Sadizi's dialog in "The Way Forward", they are all talking about the same ting, the Elder Dragon's ability to cycle magic/maintain the All. The "Elder Dragon imbalance" is the magic cycle imbalance, since its the Elder Dragons who cycle the magic/All. Its the same thing, not two separate problems. But, again, all of their comments are based on the idea of Elder Dragons as they know them, which is the limited, magic conflicting, dragons we have. And Aurene isn't that.

    For some more specific points,.

    • Taimi's comments about Kralkatorik becoming more powerful, and upsetting the balance, can be compared to a large drilling machine that uses multiple drills to dig through rock. All the drills need to be at the same speed for the machine to run smoothly. Having one drill move much faster then the others creates an imbalance in the machines speed. That however doesn't mean you NEED four drills in the first place. Theoretically, you could make one giant super drill and achieve the same effect. Or, in this case, have one super dragon that does it all. All her comments here indicate is that, in the situation where there are multiple dragons running everything, having one become too powerful is bad. Not that you necessarily need several of them.
    • Her comment about Kralkatorik dying in the Mists only indicates that, for whatever reason, Aurene seemingly wouldn't be able to absorb his magic in the Mists if he is killed there, and thus he has to die in the mortal realm for Aurene to be able to take that magic. If Aurene was able to replace Kralkatorik in the Mists, his magic wouldn't be "gone" as Taimi mentions, it would be in Aurene. So her comment only makes sense in the context of "Aurene can't replace him if he is killed in the Mists"

    Having Aurene become the "one dragon to rule them all" wouldn't be tossing aside any past lore. All of that past lore would still be 100% valid for the context and situation it was originally made in. We are just no longer in that situation.

    And, unless the Sylvari start pulling out some big magic cords to start funneling power into the Pale Tree, or something, Anet has made zero effort to even suggest any other sort of entity that could help Aurene maintain the cycle. Let alone like 3 others. And I don't see them pulling that out with Jormag, or Bubbles, or Primordus. The only other enttiy besides the Pale Tree I could see them shoveling this onto is Kuunavang, but that still leaves us with, at most, 3 entities.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    The problem with all of this is that everyone speaking at those times did so under the assumption that Aurene would be like the other Elder Dragons, except nice. But, as Kralkatorik pointed out, she isn't. She is fundamentally different due to her ability to have multiple magics in her, and not having them conflict. Glint's warning in "Scion and Champion" is likely a reference to Kralkatorik's torment, which we already know Aurene is unlikely to suffer from due to the above mentioned non-conflict of magic in her.

    I'm not so sure. I can certainly see that interpretation, but ask yourself this: why is Aurene different? And what are the known things that makes her different from the Elder Dragons?

    Well, one major thing that is different between Aurene and the Elder Dragons - even different between Aurene and Glint and Vlast, is that she has a bond with mortals. A bond that helps her with the burden of magic.

    The way I see it, it is that bond that makes "Aurene fundamentally different" and gives her the "ability to have multiple magics in her". Because, quite honestly, that's the only presented reason beyond it being Mordremoth's magic that helped bring her about - that she was born from three forms of magic in the first place (plant, death, and crystal) - of course, in the latter, there's no reason to take that to mean "she can handle any type of magic" but rather it just leads to knowing "she can handle those three types of magic".

    Furthermore, Glint's legacy was to make Elder Dragons that wouldn't be afflicted by torment thus by ravenous greed for magic. So it stands to reason that the main critical aspect of her legacy for Aurene - that she would bond with a mortal that would be her champion - would be the key to preventing torment from accumulating in Aurene.

    On top of all of this, in the Guild Chat following War Eternal, Tom Abernathy suggested very heavily that Aurene may not be completely immune to torment - that in the future, we may see her suffering from magical overdose. This would further suggest that it's the bond with mortals that Glint talks about which reduces the affliction of magical torment. Suggesting that for Aurene to handle more magic, she needs to bond with more mortals and share the burden of magic with them (since mortals, as we see throughout S3 and PoF, can only handle so much magic and it's a far smaller threshhold than dragons).

    As for Taimi's dialog in "Druid Protection" and "A Small Victory", and Sadizi's dialog in "The Way Forward", they are all talking about the same ting, the Elder Dragon's ability to cycle magic/maintain the All. The "Elder Dragon imbalance" is the magic cycle imbalance, since its the Elder Dragons who cycle the magic/All. Its the same thing, not two separate problems. But, again, all of their comments are based on the idea of Elder Dragons as they know them, which is the limited, magic conflicting, dragons we have. And Aurene isn't that.

    I would disagree. Taimi explicitly calls them out as being different in Elder Druid Protection, and calls it out as being an issue if Aurene were to replace Kralkatorrik in the Mists.

    • Her comment about Kralkatorik dying in the Mists only indicates that, for whatever reason, Aurene seemingly wouldn't be able to absorb his magic in the Mists if he is killed there, and thus he has to die in the mortal realm for Aurene to be able to take that magic. If Aurene was able to replace Kralkatorik in the Mists, his magic wouldn't be "gone" as Taimi mentions, it would be in Aurene. So her comment only makes sense in the context of "Aurene can't replace him if he is killed in the Mists"

    I don't see this as being plausible. For two reasons:

    First, the magic can't simply disappear. It's been established that magic is, like matter, always in existence - it can change form and location, but it always exists. So magic cannot ever be simply "gone". Taimi's wording clearly indicates that the magic would be leaving Tyria's system, and not that it would vanish.

    Secondly, we see other similar beings get replaced while in the Mists (Abaddon/Kormir), so simply being in the Mists doesn't mean that re-absorbing energy unleashed is impossible. With Aurene being there, since the magic doesn't just magically (no pun intended) vanish, Aurene would be able to absorb it due to her proximity. Worst case scenario should be that she couldn't absorb it all (which we know is true as she couldn't absorb all of Kralkatorrik's magic anyways), which would imply that any magic Aurene couldn't absorb would leave Tyria's system and that this loss would be great enough to cause magical instability (in theory).

    And, unless the Sylvari start pulling out some big magic cords to start funneling power into the Pale Tree, or something, Anet has made zero effort to even suggest any other sort of entity that could help Aurene maintain the cycle. Let alone like 3 others. And I don't see them pulling that out with Jormag, or Bubbles, or Primordus. The only other enttiy besides the Pale Tree I could see them shoveling this onto is Kuunavang, but that still leaves us with, at most, 3 entities.

    Arguably, they have.

    1. In Season 1, Tequatl got a power boost after Zhaitan's death, and this was later confirmed to be that Tequatl was absorbing its power. This indicates that any dragon champion - or at least, any dragon shaped champion - could replace an Elder Dragon just as much as scions can (unless Tequatl was an unnamed scion, which is technically possible). Simply pulling dragon champions and using the ritual the Forgotten used on them would be sufficient to make more potential candidates for Elder Dragons.
    2. If ANet wanted, they could easily just say any dragon champion can eventually replace an Elder Dragon, thus making the Pale Tree viable indeed.
    3. In preparation for GW2, Kuunavang was put on par to Glint - even after Glint's reveal as dragon champion. They can further this, to indeed shovel that onto Kuunavang. But this would also mean any Saltspray Dragon has the potential - such as Albax and Shiny (who, sadly, never played a role in PoF/S4 despite our location proximity...).
    4. And lastly, of course, there's also the possibility of Aurene having children to replace Elder Dragons as well.

    That's four possible directions, each one giving us a bare minimum of 3 potential replacements. Which, incidentally, is the bare minimum we need.

    Personally, I'm hoping for a mix of 2 and 3. Though presenting Drakkar as not just a Herald of Jormag, but a Scion of Jormag, putting it even more on par to Glint, would have been a fun potential plot line. But alas, that ship's sailed.

    All that said, given where expansion 3 takes us, I find it very likely that Elder Dragon Kuunavang will be a thing. For good or ill (I could see a plot where Kuunavang replaces Zhaitan/Mordremoth behind the scenes, becomes evil through magical torment, thus sparking the expansion, and by the end of it we have to help Albax replace her while avoiding torment by bonding with mortals).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.