Jormag's Story with New Expac Reveal - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Jormag's Story with New Expac Reveal

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  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    I don't know where you are getting "less then a season" from. The entire Icebrood Saga is Jormag's story, and it appears fairly lengthy.

    We know that the Icebrood Saga portal tome has 9 slots in it, and from what we can gather, or reasonably guess, so far
    Slot 1 = Bound by Blood
    Slot 2 = Whisper in the Dark
    Slot 3 = Shadow in the Ice
    Slot 4 = Visions of the Past: Steel and Fire
    Slot 5 = Eye of the North base
    Slot 6 = Woodland Cascades map with episode 3
    Slot 7 = Woodland Cascades map with episode 4(expansion of episode 3 map)
    Slot 8 = Shiverpeaks map with episode 5
    Slot 9 = Shiverpeaks map with episode 6(expansion of episode 5 map)

    It will end up being pretty much the same as the Kralkatorik plot, which covered LWS4. We spend the first part of the season fighting a small enemy(Joko in LWS4's case, Bangar in Icebrood Saga's case), then move on to the real threat in the later part. Except in this case Jormag is actually involved in the first half of the season's plot, unlike the Joko stuff what really wasn't tied to Kralk in any way, so they are blending the two together better compared to LWS4.

    As for going from Jormag to Cantha, they could tease it at the end, like Jormag's dying words are like "Dudes, watch out for Cantha!", or something along those lines. That, or they could give us a "prologue" chapter between the end of Icebrood Saga, and expansion 3, where we go to the Dominion of winds, and the Tengu are like "its time we go back to Cantha!"

    Visions of the past doesn’t count. It isn’t taking a portal slot. And eye of the north is something they decided on feedback to add, so the 9 planned will be 8 episodes plus the prologue

    HARRY! DIDYA PUT YER NAME IN DA GOBLET OF FIYAH?!

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I'm not so sure. I can certainly see that interpretation, but ask yourself this: why is Aurene different? And what are the known things that makes her different from the Elder Dragons?

    I see the bond with mortals as only the reason why she isn't likely to go rogue. She gained a fundamental understanding, and appreciation, of mortal life that the Elder Dragons never did. The whole process of Scion and Champion was just a means to bypass having to go through the much longer route Glint did, of being freeded, and then having to spend ages slowly learning to appreciate mortals by reading their minds/feeling their thoughts. Something that doesn't always work out as it did for Glint, as seen with Vlast. This bond also helps steer her in the best direction to use her powers.

    From what we know, Glint wanted herself, Vlast, and Aurene, to replace the other Elder Dragons. Not even she predicted Aurene's ability, or expected her to have as much power as she does. As for why Aurene can do what she does, well, she is a crystal dragon, crystal which focuses light and magic. The rather unique, and likely unexpected, event leading to her birth, and the events that happened after it, where she got dosed with a bunch of various magics while still in her formulative phase, likely "attuned" her crystalline structure to be able to accept all these magics without causing conflict.

    First, the magic can't simply disappear.

    Never said it would. Only that the process by which Aurene would be able to take on said power wouldn't work. The Mists are magic, if anything, its more likely that Kralk's magic would just be dissipated into the super structure of the Mists upon his death, rather then being in a coherent form to absorb. Which would rob the All of one of its major components, and thus, cause doom.

    Secondly, we see other similar beings get replaced while in the Mists (Abaddon/Kormir)

    That's really a different situation entirely. God magic isn't dragon magic, nor was Abaddon a fundamental part of the All like the Elder dragons are. At least, he wasn't for the All of Tyria.

    In Season 1, Tequatl got a power boost after Zhaitan's death, and this was later confirmed to be that Tequatl was absorbing its power. This indicates that any dragon champion - or at least, any dragon shaped champion - could replace an Elder Dragon just as much as scions can (unless Tequatl was an unnamed scion, which is technically possible). Simply pulling dragon champions and using the ritual the Forgotten used on them would be sufficient to make more potential candidates for Elder Dragons.
    If ANet wanted, they could easily just say any dragon champion can eventually replace an Elder Dragon, thus making the Pale Tree viable indeed.

    I don't agree with this assumption at all. It shows that dragon champions can absorb power from their fallen masters, but it gives no credence to champions being able to contain enough power to become part of the controlling mechanism of the all. At best, they can absorb more power then most other things can, but would still eventually reach the same state as the bounty creatures do. I would only presume the Pale Tree could because it has a lot of extra, unexpected, powers, and magical connections, then champions typically have.

    In preparation for GW2, Kuunavang was put on par to Glint - even after Glint's reveal as dragon champion. They can further this, to indeed shovel that onto Kuunavang. But this would also mean any Saltspray Dragon has the potential - such as Albax and Shiny (who, sadly, never played a role in PoF/S4 despite our location proximity...).

    I disagree with this assumption even more. Kunnavang shares the same model as Saltspray dragons, but she is so completely and fundamentally different from them that saying that all of them can do it because she can is baseless. Albax and Shiny, at most, deserve to be turned into legendary bounties.

    And lastly, of course, there's also the possibility of Aurene having children to replace Elder Dragons as well.

    Which is something I suggested previously. Though this does bring up the question of how dragons reproduce.

    Personally, I'm hoping for a mix of 2 and 3. Though presenting Drakkar as not just a Herald of Jormag, but a Scion of Jormag, putting it even more on par to Glint, would have been a fun potential plot line. But alas, that ship's sailed.

    Putting Drakkar on the level of Glint would have been nothing but insulting to Glint's whole purpose.

    All that said, given where expansion 3 takes us, I find it very likely that Elder Dragon Kuunavang will be a thing. For good or ill (I could see a plot where Kuunavang replaces Zhaitan/Mordremoth behind the scenes, becomes evil through magical torment, thus sparking the expansion, and by the end of it we have to help Albax replace her while avoiding torment by bonding with mortals).

    I would honestly expect any Canthan expansion to be like Path of Fire, where we go there to put the slap down on the racist, xenophobic, Canthan Empire. Getting help from Kunnavang who has gotten tired of their BS over the last 250 years, with some hints that Bubbles is somehow involved, leading to the next LW season or Saga or w/e they call it, and at the end we kill bubbles, and Kunnavang takes over for it.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    I see the bond with mortals as only the reason why she isn't likely to go rogue. She gained a fundamental understanding, and appreciation, of mortal life that the Elder Dragons never did. The whole process of Scion and Champion was just a means to bypass having to go through the much longer route Glint did, of being freeded, and then having to spend ages slowly learning to appreciate mortals by reading their minds/feeling their thoughts. Something that doesn't always work out as it did for Glint, as seen with Vlast. This bond also helps steer her in the best direction to use her powers.

    You make it sound like Vlast went rogue, he wasn't. He was fully prepared to go through with the legacy if it came to that. It's true he didn't have a champion and thus was not bonded to mortals to such extent as Aurene, but he wasn't less than Glint as she was near the end.

    Furthermore, the dialogue I quoted has nothing to do with Aurene's behavior towards mortals, but everything to do with her ability to withstand magic. Which earlier you said was there because Glint expected Aurene to be different - one critical issue with such state, besides what I brought up, is that the messages in Glint's trials were reactionary to the current situation, delivered by a magical "AI" of sorts, and catered to Aurene's situation - this would, no doubt, include any physical alterations based on how Aurene handles magic.

    Thus, even if Glint hadn't predicted Aurene's unique state of handling magic (of which we see zero reason to believe such), the lair would have likely picked up on that and adapted accordingly.

    First, the magic can't simply disappear.

    Never said it would. Only that the process by which Aurene would be able to take on said power wouldn't work. The Mists are magic, if anything, its more likely that Kralk's magic would just be dissipated into the super structure of the Mists upon his death, rather then being in a coherent form to absorb. Which would rob the All of one of its major components, and thus, cause doom.

    Secondly, we see other similar beings get replaced while in the Mists (Abaddon/Kormir)

    That's really a different situation entirely. God magic isn't dragon magic, nor was Abaddon a fundamental part of the All like the Elder dragons are. At least, he wasn't for the All of Tyria.

    While it's true that god magic isn't dragon magic, "god magic" is often called "mists magic". If any magic would be harder to absorb while surrounded by the protomatter (not magic) that is the Mists, then it would be "mists magic" and by extension, "god magic".

    There's no reason to believe that dragon magic would react so drastically different that it could not be properly absorbed.

    I don't agree with this assumption at all. It shows that dragon champions can absorb power from their fallen masters, but it gives no credence to champions being able to contain enough power to become part of the controlling mechanism of the all. At best, they can absorb more power then most other things can, but would still eventually reach the same state as the bounty creatures do. I would only presume the Pale Tree could because it has a lot of extra, unexpected, powers, and magical connections, then champions typically have.

    I disagree with this assumption even more. Kunnavang shares the same model as Saltspray dragons, but she is so completely and fundamentally different from them that saying that all of them can do it because she can is baseless. Albax and Shiny, at most, deserve to be turned into legendary bounties.

    You're mistaking a potential plot direction ArenaNet can easily take, with me suggesting such is an actual thing.

    Putting Drakkar on the level of Glint would have been nothing but insulting to Glint's whole purpose.

    Hardly. Glint, the Great Destroyer, and Drakkar were already put on the same levels to each other by ArenaNet the moment Edge of Destiny came out. Glint was then made special again, with Path of Fire confirming her to be the child of Kralkatorrik.

    It's hardly insulting to Glint to say that Drakkar was also an Elder Dragon scion. Their roles in the plot, despite similar backgrounds, were still drastically different - it's no less insulting than putting Aurene and Vlast on par to each other (which they are).

    I would honestly expect any Canthan expansion to be like Path of Fire, where we go there to put the slap down on the racist, xenophobic, Canthan Empire. Getting help from Kunnavang who has gotten tired of their BS over the last 250 years, with some hints that Bubbles is somehow involved, leading to the next LW season or Saga or w/e they call it, and at the end we kill bubbles, and Kunnavang takes over for it.

    Every storyline in GW2 is inevitably directly linked to the Elder Dragons. It seems unlikely, especially out of nowhere as it so far seems to be, for us to go and smack down some empire. To bring Cantha into the fold, either a) we would need to go to Cantha for something, or b) someone from Cantha attacks us.

    For A, there's not many possibilities, beyond it being the land of dragons, unless we're for some reason chasing Bangar, Jormag, or Primordus to Cantha. And as for B, nothing even actually suggests it's still xenophobic or war mongering, and in fact, our last contact called it a culturally rich land by the Zephyrites. Not exactly something they'd actively say about xenophobic or war mongering people.

    I mean, still plausible. Especially given that ANet has a tendency for rule of cool over consistency. But when discussing lore, I prefer only considering the established lore and what that can mean, otherwise anything and everything becomes a possibility.

    All these squares make a circle.
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    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Every storyline in GW2 is inevitably directly linked to the Elder Dragons. It seems unlikely, especially out of nowhere as it so far seems to be, for us to go and smack down some empire. To bring Cantha into the fold, either a) we would need to go to Cantha for something, or b) someone from Cantha attacks us.

    For A, there's not many possibilities, beyond it being the land of dragons, unless we're for some reason chasing Bangar, Jormag, or Primordus to Cantha. And as for B, nothing even actually suggests it's still xenophobic or war mongering, and in fact, our last contact called it a culturally rich land by the Zephyrites. Not exactly something they'd actively say about xenophobic or war mongering people.

    I mean, still plausible. Especially given that ANet has a tendency for rule of cool over consistency. But when discussing lore, I prefer only considering the established lore and what that can mean, otherwise anything and everything becomes a possibility.

    Like I said in the part you quoted "with hints that Bubbles is somehow involved". I am really sick and tired of you selectively ignoring half of what I say, just so you can respond to whatever you want, instead of what I actually said. Don't bother replying from this point on unless you manage to stop.

    And there are plenty of reason to go to Cantha

    • Jormag mentions "Dude, Bubbles is up to no good in Cantha!" right before it dies
    • Bubbles is smart enough to false flag Cantha into thinking we attacked them first, so they attack us in some manner, and we go to Cantha to find out why they attacked us
    • The Tengu go "welp, with four Elder Dragons down, and the seas clear enough for people to be taking boats from Amnoon to Istan with little trouble, its time for us to try to take back our homeland!" and we go along as members of the Pact to try to see if Cantha will be willing to join froces to fight Bubbles and Primordus, and to prevent the situation between the Tengu and Canthans from getting violent.

    And the fact that its still closed to outsiders, and has made no effort to make contact with Elona or Tyria in the last 200+ years does give strong credence to it still being xenophobic, isolationist,and generally, non human hating. They can be culturally rich to the extreme and still be kitten to everyone else.

  • unless we're for some reason chasing Bangar, Jormag, or Primordus to Cantha.

    ironically enough one of my first thoughts when I have started reading this thread today was bangar's quote "charr empire will span from shiverpeaks to cantha" xD

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    And the fact that its still closed to outsiders, and has made no effort to make contact with Elona or Tyria in the last 200+ years does give strong credence to it still being xenophobic, isolationist,and generally, non human hating. They can be culturally rich to the extreme and still be kitten to everyone else.

    I don't read too much into that,since the isolation can be easily accounted for without appealing to xenophobia. The Movement of the World does suggest that attempts to reach Tyria occurred, and wrecked; after a century of Zhaitan keeping them away, it might just be that they don't trust the weird sky hippies when they say the path is now clear. And Elona... they spent even longer under Joko, and are, last we heard, an anarchic mess right now. Not much there to interest reasonable folks. And that's without bringing Bubbles into the mix. If our aquatic friend was able to drive the quaggans and krait into the Sea of Sorrows, there's a pretty good chance that its forces are positioned to catch sea traffic headed to Tyria, if not Elona.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Like I said in the part you quoted "with hints that Bubbles is somehow involved". I am really sick and tired of you selectively ignoring half of what I say, just so you can respond to whatever you want, instead of what I actually said. Don't bother replying from this point on unless you manage to stop.

    And you apparently didn't get that I was indicating that "hints" is not the same as "directly related". I wasn't ignoring any of your post, I just didn't directly quote every tiny bit I was referring to. There is a difference, though it seems hard for you to figure that much out on your own.

    And there are plenty of reason to go to Cantha

    • Jormag mentions "Dude, Bubbles is up to no good in Cantha!" right before it dies
    • Bubbles is smart enough to false flag Cantha into thinking we attacked them first, so they attack us in some manner, and we go to Cantha to find out why they attacked us
    • The Tengu go "welp, with four Elder Dragons down, and the seas clear enough for people to be taking boats from Amnoon to Istan with little trouble, its time for us to try to take back our homeland!" and we go along as members of the Pact to try to see if Cantha will be willing to join froces to fight Bubbles and Primordus, and to prevent the situation between the Tengu and Canthans from getting violent.

    I wasn't going to comment on this section, but since you whine whenever I don't reply to every tiny bit of your posts:

    • Why would we believe Jormag? Even if we assume Jormag does die in this season, the entire lore around Jormag is that they're a liar and manipulator, so trusting Jormag would be as logical as trusting Joko.
    • Despite common player belief, there's actually nothing so far relating the DSD to Cantha (best we have is "its minions exist in the Clashing Seas" but that doesn't say much). It's hard to say how smart the DSD, but that would be one hell of a high level of cunning and manipulation never seen among Elder Dragons - especially since the DSD's minions are made out of water and aren't at all looking like humans or other races; this scenario seems extremely unlikely, but to play devil's advocate and suggest it does occur, then this is far more than a "hint".
    • Tengu don't show any interest in taking back Cantha. In fact, in GW1, it was heavily implied that tengu would leave Cantha for a prophecy, and in GW2, we're told that not just Canthan tengus left for Dominion of Winds, but tengu from "across the globe" - even tribes we never saw in Elona left for the Dominion of Winds, as well as the Avacari who would prosper in the southern Shiverpeaks with the dwarves' disappearance. The tengu leading an assault on Cantha doesn't fit established lore at all.

    And the fact that its still closed to outsiders, and has made no effort to make contact with Elona or Tyria in the last 200+ years does give strong credence to it still being xenophobic, isolationist,and generally, non human hating. They can be culturally rich to the extreme and still be kitten to everyone else.

    The premise here is actually somewhat false. In Sea of Sorrows, it's established that while Cantha had closed its borders for travelers and immigrants, they still traded with Kryta. Both The Movement of the World, and the Bound by Blood magazine from August has lines about Canthan sailors washing ashore and seeing unusual sea creatures. On top of that, Zephyrites were allowed to dock in Cantha.

    All three of these show that Cantha never ceased communications and went into full out isolation - or at least, they weren't the perpetrators of the ceasing of contact. It was Zhaitan and the deep sea dragon causing such.

    Now this doesn't relate to the xenophobia outright, but The Movement of the World - the leading claim of their anti-human tendencies - have been retconned a lot by the core release. It's hard to say why the tengu left, since they don't comment, but given that more than just Canthan tengus migrated, it could easily be changed that the whole 'non-humans were kicked out' was an in-universe misunderstanding based on the tengu's presence.

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