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Siren's Reef | The Boss Fight

hellsqueen.3045hellsqueen.3045 Member ✭✭✭

Can I complete with a decent group?
Yeah sure I can, but compared to other fractals it is just really frustrating to go through and can really be one that makes or breaks a group that is just your average T4 fractal group as opposed to a "We need this this and this, don't have it don't join" sort of thing.

The smaller platform size compared to other fights, combined with so many different AOE types and all those diggity dang mobs pushing you and not a real way or mechanic type to prevent certain things just really makes for the worst fractal boss fight I have experienced.

Bring Forth The Tempest, seems like the perfect triggering line for unlocking the stun bar and preventing a few series series of strong gusts.

Having both the damaging AOE drop and the shark to share, while those are fine, with all the other AOE clutter on this stage, it often makes for a confusing time when you add the adds that you have to deal with, or suffer. There is just so much visual clutter going on with the tempest, the cone, the condition bomb, the shark, the enemies regular aoe attacks. It's christmas light vomit on my eye balls. The amount of times someone is running away with the green simply because there is just too much going on, too much visual clutter all in a very small space. Not to mention your team dealing damage and their AOE effects to add to that vomit of light.

I would like to see more love given to the condition bomb as a mechanic of dealing with the mobs, drop it on the ramps when you have it, and it will kill mobs while it exists there.

I know there is going to be a lot of:
"Git Gud" type responses, and as I said it's not that I can't get a group to get through it. I do get through it well enough.
But the experience feels unenjoyable, stressful because there is no way to prevent certain aspects and just the all around confusion with the visual clutter in a small space is so much.

I can't think of many fighting spaces as small as the ship that have that same level of clutter. Usually it's all well spaced out, there are few AOE's happening at once but letting them happen or not working around them properly can be catastrophic (eg. The first fight in The Shattered Observatory with the orbs that you have to hit away or your whole team gets knocked back and potentially knocked off due to the size of it's explosion when dead centre)

I am not saying remove what's there, just rework some of it for different purposes.

What do you guys think?
What would improve the experience for you?
Etc

Founder of Affinitus Nemus [AFNM]
"Join Us, We're Lonely" - Our Guild At Some Point

JUST LIKE THE LORAX, WE SPEAK FOR THE TREES!

Comments

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2020

    Rarely fail from my experience(semi-pug 2-4 players daily), there are but extemely rare(the last time was months ago). Bring a healer ,condi cleanse and use reflect skills.

  • If you're having issues, try clearing the mobs (having something like staff thief with Dagger Storm helps, having a staff druid helps) at a consistent basis. The actual AoEs are really not that hard to avoid as long as you focus a little. Needless to say, having a healer is preferred (although not mandatory).

    As for the stressful part - that may just be you picking "the wrong" profession to do fractals with. The visual clutter part can be solved as easily as re-positioning your camera.

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2020

    Agree with there's too much visual clutter. The golden rule I follow:

    1) Have everyone stay close to the boss entire time(solving Green), while the person with Red(same for Flux Bomb) run out.
    2) Don't get blown off the ship by the wind gust. Come back asap if did.

    Keep reflect up, condi cleanse and ignore everything else. If the group still fails, there's only 1 reason; lack of BOONS. Group is doing below average DPS. Still can be remedied with (1) & (2):

    3) Thin down the minnions. (Minnions spawn based on Bosses HP%, low dps = slower spawn rate; easier to manage).

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    My biggest problems are not the AoEs on board or the mobs:
    It's the mist. Being pushed off the platform out of the fight already is bad enough, but the area pulsing too many conditions on you is just insultingly unfair on top of it all. And since poison has the unnecessary healing punishment, one can't even properly counter the conditions until one is back on the ship.

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2020

    The main difficulty comes from the instabs, especially ones which buff the mobs. This is most applicable in T4 where there are 3 different instabs, as basically RNG is dictating how bad it wants to make your day. It doesn't help when the wind is affected by sugar rush (as well as giving all the mobs machine guns), or when the game sees if it can turn you into a potato with hamstrung + chill + cripple + slow > 2s daze every 2.5s, or when npng doesn't care if you're dealing with quartermasters/dropping lagoons correctly, or when instab lineup is completely backwards where it discourages you from touching the mobs at all because doing so just randomly makes it harder than before.

    Imo, people aren't actually struggling with the encounter itself as much as they are with the instabs (which aren't as counter-able). The encounter isn't in much need of a rework and instab restrictions (or at least certain combinations such as +dmg, +dmg, +dmg) alone would do wonders.

    This encounter as well as the reworked molten furnace boss could be considered a bit overblown, but only for T1/2/3 where you absolutely cannot expect players to be running a healer or even have pots to deal with all the junk these that things would trivialise.

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • Xentera.4560Xentera.4560 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2020

    As a disclaimer, I haven't failed this fractal since it came out. Yes, there have been times where I've had a couple of wipes there with PUGs but eventually we would get it. Having said that it is obvious that whoever designed this fractal does not have much experience with the rest of the fractals, the game mechanics, or even basic classes skills and abilities. It is frustrating to play through, too long and annoying, and on top of that not rewarding. That's why a lot of PUGs just skip it ll together.

    Make more fractals like 99/100, and way... way less than Sirens Reef and Deepstone.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2020

    You can just cheese it with ventari dome or (lol) Shield of the Avenger since most attacks are projectiles. You also want pulls.

    I think it's annoying that there are so many adds which are not cleared from the last fights. I think maybe the adds should despawn between each fight and phase.

  • It is frustrating to play through, too long and annoying, and on top of that not rewarding.

    Long? Frustrating?

    I don't even know what to say anymore. Guess all this community wants is the same OLD, SAME OLD, served on THE EXACT same OLD platter.

  • hellsqueen.3045hellsqueen.3045 Member ✭✭✭

    Just to be clear, this wasn't like a rage post after not completing it that day or W/E

    In fact, I completed it with a PUG after like one wipe.
    But I still just didn't enjoy the experience as much, I like when there are things for me to use CC on in a fight to prevent something else from happening or have to go somewhere and use blank mechanic to prevent blank.
    I play the healer in the party most times, I play druid. Unfortunately I am a mouse clicker player (am looking into a MOBA mouse to be less of a hinderance) but overall I do pretty well considering all that.

    So basically, this doesn't come from a place of rage or anything, it comes from just a genuine feeling of someone who has experienced this fractal a few times and this is just my constructive criticism on the experience.

    I love the story of Siren's Reef. I don't mind the cannon part, or the throwing of treasure because it's all different and fun.
    It is just simply the fight with Captain Crowe that I don't have fond feelings about. When seeing Siren's Reef it fills me with dread because I know it's just one of those fights that I don't feel I really impact on through mechanics. It's just a fight where you avoid lots of AOEs and don't drop something on your team with a whole bunch of clutter in between.

    Founder of Affinitus Nemus [AFNM]
    "Join Us, We're Lonely" - Our Guild At Some Point

    JUST LIKE THE LORAX, WE SPEAK FOR THE TREES!

  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Sirens is one of my favorite fractals for two main reasons:

    It prioritizes mechanics that alot of other end game doesn't emphasize much; condi cleanse/resistance is super strong. Enhanced movement speed ie. swiftness is very nice for not getting blown over. Aoe soft and hard cc to lock down mobs or pull them in to be cleaved down. Projectile defense shuts down lots of the trash mobs. Boon rip/corruption is also super strong even without no pain no gain. All these things tend to be kinda niche behind SMASH BREAKBAR and DPS actually get some heavy emphasis but they aren't all required. This leaves setting up builds as kind of a puzzle on what you want most. For instance on renegade do I want projectile defense and condi cleanse from ventari, aoe pulsing daze and high Life siphon from kalla, resistance boonrip and aoe pull from malyx, single Target damage and movement speed from shiro, or cleave and group stability from jalis? They are all good but good indifferent ways and what you want to take really depends on what the rest of your group can bring.

    Which leads into reason 2 which is the bosses don't have a breakbar which you can just smash and 100->0 or 100 -> phase change before having to deal with any other mechanics. The cm fractals have become a joke even for average cm + t4 groups because the exposed debuff lasts too long and grants too large a damage boost, the bosses all get pushed to phasing before they can use any attacks at all sometimes. Sirens doesn't have those prolonged periods of free totally safe dps so you are constantly dealing with stuff keeping it more intense and interesting.

    Tldr. Git Gud

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    common fractal for 4 scourges and druid. Use proper class and build.
    Can't ? - don't start at all.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:
    common fractal for 4 scourges and druid. Use proper class and build.
    Can't ? - don't start at all.

    Scourge or druid is not even close to proper class/build for that fractal. cfb is the op build there.

  • hellsqueen.3045hellsqueen.3045 Member ✭✭✭

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    Sirens is one of my favorite fractals for two main reasons:

    It prioritizes mechanics that alot of other end game doesn't emphasize much; condi cleanse/resistance is super strong. Enhanced movement speed ie. swiftness is very nice for not getting blown over. Aoe soft and hard cc to lock down mobs or pull them in to be cleaved down. Projectile defense shuts down lots of the trash mobs. Boon rip/corruption is also super strong even without no pain no gain. All these things tend to be kinda niche behind SMASH BREAKBAR and DPS actually get some heavy emphasis but they aren't all required. This leaves setting up builds as kind of a puzzle on what you want most. For instance on renegade do I want projectile defense and condi cleanse from ventari, aoe pulsing daze and high Life siphon from kalla, resistance boonrip and aoe pull from malyx, single Target damage and movement speed from shiro, or cleave and group stability from jalis? They are all good but good indifferent ways and what you want to take really depends on what the rest of your group can bring.

    Which leads into reason 2 which is the bosses don't have a breakbar which you can just smash and 100->0 or 100 -> phase change before having to deal with any other mechanics. The cm fractals have become a joke even for average cm + t4 groups because the exposed debuff lasts too long and grants too large a damage boost, the bosses all get pushed to phasing before they can use any attacks at all sometimes. Sirens doesn't have those prolonged periods of free totally safe dps so you are constantly dealing with stuff keeping it more intense and interesting.

    Tldr. Git Gud

    There are still people out there who don't do CM's. You are talking about these spaces as if everyone is going to be optimized down to the tiniest portion in a game with a very large casual player base.

    Some people only have 1 or 2 characters geared out because they don't have the ascended items to even begin gearing out multiple character slots just to switch characters every other fractal to get something perfect.

    The break bar is still a mechanic that some people across the entire game, don't know what it does.
    You think they are equipped to handle some sort of complex nuances.

    The break bar was a rewarding feature, especially for lower skilled players.
    Break Bar = Prevention for certain things that would kill them.

    That's a good feature.

    If it's such a good thing, make a CM that deals with these complex minor core mechanics because that is exactly the sort of thing a challenge mode should dabble in.

    Founder of Affinitus Nemus [AFNM]
    "Join Us, We're Lonely" - Our Guild At Some Point

    JUST LIKE THE LORAX, WE SPEAK FOR THE TREES!

  • This Fractal needs to be nerfed or toned down somewhat, not for me, i hate it, but i can do it fine, it's for the sake of others, everytime this one is on the daily rotation, it's a nightmare, you create a group, people do the other ones, and when it's Siren's time, everyone just left, then you have to sit there waiting 2 hours for a group just to do this specific Fractal, and that's if you get lucky, most days T4 Siren's Reef is one fractal i know i won't be able to do because everyone refuses to do it.

    My specific problem with this one is just the mob spam, they are different from every other in the game, they are all veteran, they spam the most annoying condis in the game (chilled, slowed, crippled and weakness), and they even stack, some days ago i had 30 seconds of chilled lol, they don't rally you when killed, they don't even give drops, Molten Boss and Urban Battlegrounds for example, have mob spam of sorts, but they all give loot (when i started doing fractals one guy got a precursor in Urban), aside from that, i think the rest is fine, the boss fights, the mechanics, etc.

  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There are 4 tiers of difficulty. If you can't handle tier 4 do one of the lower tiers, git gud, or skip it for the day. Why have content with multiple difficulty tiers if people want the highest tier to be catered to people who are completely mechanically inept or are too close minded to swap some traits/utilities and try to coordinate a strategy with their group?

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    There are 4 tiers of difficulty. If you can't handle tier 4 do one of the lower tiers, git gud, or skip it for the day. Why have content with multiple difficulty tiers if people want the highest tier to be catered to people who are completely mechanically inept or are too close minded to swap some traits/utilities and try to coordinate a strategy with their group?

    The problems aren't necessarily related to the difficulty scale.
    Even on T1, some of the mechanics can be exceedingly annoying.

  • Shadowmoon.7986Shadowmoon.7986 Member ✭✭✭

    The biggest problem i see is pugs will not focus down the quartermater add.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    here comes the super dudes than only writes to git gud kek.
    This fight is poorly designed, its only about spam: trash mobs, condis, boons. Ye just kill elite quartermasters u might say. gl with finding them in visual clutter that was always the problem with this game. i like blowing wind that cant be just skipped with stab, the main issue with that mechanic is social, that make some ppl go out of the safe zone - someone can just die from doing mechanics, which is borderline stupid.
    all pof is about spam, and i hope this trend wont continue to go on.

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    id like to see a breakbar that prevents boss from teleporting, some additional reward for good gameplay

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • hellsqueen.3045hellsqueen.3045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2020

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    There are 4 tiers of difficulty. If you can't handle tier 4 do one of the lower tiers, git gud, or skip it for the day. Why have content with multiple difficulty tiers if people want the highest tier to be catered to people who are completely mechanically inept or are too close minded to swap some traits/utilities and try to coordinate a strategy with their group?

    How can you strategize with a group when some people have severe limitations?

    Not everyone is carrying whole other armor sets and weapons on them, let alone with just as much agony or stuff to move their agony or legendary armor to switch, not everyone has every character they have geared out so they can switch and optimize to the teeniest amount. And you could say "just craft ascendeds" and "just by the agony" but that implies they have enough money to do that in the first place.

    For example, I only have 2 characters geared out right now for T4 and I am building up a third but I need ascended gear and I have only just started to pick up fractals again. Siren's Reef was garbage when I stopped and it's still garbage now simply because it doesn't feel welcoming to the builds you end up using in all other fractals. In other fractals I switch out stuff here and there, but to have to end up switching to a whole other character just to get the best tools I need to survive. Someone suggested using Renegade, well I don't have enough agony/ascended on them yet to do it, so I am still stuck as a druid for a support. Or I switch to a Dragonhunter which means losing a support which nobody wants to happen unless we have another.

    This is a problem, no other T4 creates problems of exclusion to classes in the same way this one does. You can pass every other fractal with the basic ideas of team composition, but not this fractal. It shouldn't be this precise on any tier other than CM. Challenge mode, you sign up for things to be harder to the point taking specific builds down to the tiniest optimization is what you want to do. And it would make sense their because all the best players who are geared up so well are doing those.

    Founder of Affinitus Nemus [AFNM]
    "Join Us, We're Lonely" - Our Guild At Some Point

    JUST LIKE THE LORAX, WE SPEAK FOR THE TREES!

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 16, 2020

    It should be toned down a bit though, this is the hardest Fractal and is even more irritating than Shattered Observatory. While you can PUG every other Fractal, this one generally requires a specific combination or playing style, which should be reserved for CM.

    Yes, its possible to do it otherwise, but its usually an exercise in frustration.

    If you play all the T1 Fractals with just three people, you'll see the true difference in difficulty on them. The removal of the Instabilities and limiting your party to the minimum number of players needed to pass gatekeeping mechanics, lets you get a real feel how the individual Fractals play out in comparison to one another, in particular that there are about four difficulty levels, and Siren's Reef is the worst:
    Lv4 - Siren's Reef
    Lv3 - Shattered Observatory
    Lv2 - Deepstone, Jade Maw, Nightmare, Twilight Oasis, Underground
    Lv1 - Everything else

    (Ranked by their likelyhood of failing.)
    This is because of the final boss fights, which are essentially a boss rush in a tiny arena, lots of adds and overtuned mechanics.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay | Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest(PvE), Terakura/Spellbreaker & Kitty Koume/Reaper(WvW) | ♀♥♀

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    It should be toned down a bit though, this is the hardest Fractal and is even more irritating than Shattered Observatory. While you can PUG every other Fractal, this one generally requires a specific combination or playing style, which should be reserved for CM.

    Yes, its possible to do it otherwise, but its usually an exercise in frustration.

    If you play all the T1 Fractals with just three people, you'll see the true difference in difficulty on them. The removal of the Instabilities and limiting your party to the minimum number of players needed to pass gatekeeping mechanics, lets you get a real feel how the individual Fractals play out in comparison to one another, in particular that there are about four difficulty levels, and Siren's Reef is the worst:
    Lv4 - Siren's Reef
    Lv3 - Shattered Observatory
    Lv2 - Deepstone, Jade Maw, Nightmare, Twilight Oasis, Underground
    Lv1 - Everything else

    (Ranked by their likelyhood of failing.)
    This is because of the final boss fights, which are essentially a boss rush in a tiny arena, lots of adds and overtuned mechanics.

    imo there are no overtuned mechanics. everything can be dodged side stepped, imo shattered observatory, nightmare and twitlight oasis are best fractals, cuz they have clear indicators to every attack, u actually know what killed u, if u die. even deepstone boss fight is not that bad once u start dealing with shades asap(only dumb mechanic are those aoes that are put on downed ppl which makes resing almost impossible in some situations, and if boss constantly releport to furthest points). sirens is just pure cancer, cuz theres just to much of everything, which u just cant controll activly. u need to be preventive (perma projectiles hate) which is just bad design

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • Siren's Reef is by FAR my favourite fractals for this exact reason.
    The number of layers there are to the fight that need to be learnt create such wonderful satisfaction when completed for the first time, and every time there is to follow.
    Also Arabella Crowe is the best.

    tea ~
    Guild Leader of Court of the Mythical Beasts

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @cinnamonsparkle.2850 said:
    Siren's Reef is by FAR my favourite fractals for this exact reason.
    The number of layers there are to the fight that need to be learnt create such wonderful satisfaction when completed for the first time, and every time there is to follow.
    Also Arabella Crowe is the best.

    There are 4 things only to look out for. Green circles, Red circles, blowing wind AND overwhelming amount of trash mobs. Some comes to melee and are cleaved instantyl, while some shoot projectiles and causes main harm to most of groups. Difficulty should not come from trash but from actuall mechanics.

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2020

    Fractal difficulty? Imo from pugging t4s (non cms)

    T0 (Pug killers): Siren's Reef, Mai Trinn
    T1 (Kittenshow with bad instabilities): Twilight Oasis, Thaumanova Reactor (awful with Social Awkwardness)
    T2 (Troublesome): Underground Facility (Ice Elemental), Shattered Observatory, Snowblind, Deepstone
    T3(Can go either way): Molten Boss, Aquatic, Cliffside, Aetherblade, Urban Battlegrounds (mostly the first part), Chaos (That depends if you have stability)
    T4 (Easy): Volcanic, Jade Maw (T0 if you fall asleep) , Molten Furnace.
    Free (who fails these?): Nightmare, Uncategorized

  • Oogabooga.3812Oogabooga.3812 Member ✭✭✭

    Having played CMs, I think this fractal is just as hard as 100 CM but not as hard as 99 CM, which is great if you love doing CMs; unfun if you never do CMs. You need certain roles in your team to finish t4 Siren’s Reef:

    1. Reflectors and area blocks - an HB must bring wall of reflection in addition to the shield and F3-3 skills. If there is a revenant, the tablet reflect will do wonders. A tempest can do somewhat well with party reflects. Spellbreaker should bring the elite bubble, necros equip corrosive poison cloud, mesmers take Feedback. This will alleviate most of the pressure from the 50 adds so you can effectively ignore them.
    2. DPS booster - I’d highly recommend a banner slave to increase everyone’s damage, otherwise the healer and mechanics will overwhelm the party if the battle drags on.
    3. Stripper - those elite quartermasters apply protection often, making the battle take forever if you don’t have a boon stripper - necros and revs excel at this; mesmers, thieves, and spellbreakers to a lesser degree.
    4. Healer with strong condi removal - if you have ppl who are bad at dodging the winds, they can have 15 stacks of confusion and torment on by the time they get back on deck. This is even worse with the Afflicted instability. Something that will make the winds easier to navigate is to know the sequence of winds at each stage to save unnecessary double-dodging i.e. don’t dodge towards where the next wind will be.

    With the above in place, the party can merely pay attention to the color of the circle on them, whether red or green, and the boss will be done in 5 minutes or less.

    Like other fractals, ppl need to adjust their build accordingly. An unwillingness to modify makes the group struggle. There’s your fortune cookie message.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2020

    Siren's Reef QQ again?

    Bring condi cleanse.
    Stack on boss.
    Pull mobs into boss.
    AoE.
    Bring projectile hate.
    Don't get blown.
    Park red circle elsewhere.

    Rinse and repeat for each phase. Change your build for the boss/fractal if you need to.

    I want to point out that a Guard with spirit weapons traited can pretty much upkeep the dome on Shield of the Avenger so long as they pace themselves with it. That plus SoJ and symbols should put mad stacks of burning on everything and both clear the mobs and provide heave DPS on the boss. This goes for Firebrand and Dragon Hunter as well.

  • Blueberry.8095Blueberry.8095 Member ✭✭
    edited April 1, 2020

    Me & my CM group never fail Siren's reef, unless I run with a non-cm-pug group that day, but everytime we enter this particular fractal we would moans and complain the moment it was selected, even if it was just a rec.

    I just dislike cluster salad that doesn't have a clear phasing.

    Red circle on me must move away, the wind just happen to blown into the space I moved into, so I dodged but the boss saw me and also slam attacked me the split second after I dodged (plus whatever projetiles from the other mobs that also came in my way) - all of these were happen at the same time!!!! Ok after months of doing this fractal, I already knew how to dodge all of these, but everything of this fight especially with bad instab combo that day, was not a normal T4, it was a CM. I think they should relabel this fractal as a CM level.

    Bonus complain was the eyes that as wide as the corridor that follows you.

  • Blueberry.8095Blueberry.8095 Member ✭✭
    edited April 1, 2020

    @Oogabooga.3812 said:
    If there is a revenant, the tablet reflect will do wonders.

    Regarding this, if the renegade falls into the water, the tablet will disappear, and when you move out of the water, you need to re-cast the tablet, but that doesn't bring it back, you have to also "de-activate" the tablet 1st, then "re-activate" it again, then manually move to the constantly jumpy boss face palm (1 of the skill that I wish they'd improve so it's less clunky to use).

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This week I had to drop from 2 different groups who wiped because they couldn't handle the blooms on Arkk - we got bigger issues than Siren's Reef. Actually just going to take a break from fractals for a bit as I'm tired of people wasting my time..