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  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Revenant wont get ritualist. Its not going to happen for them. You're going to have to get over that.

    No one is more fiting for ritualist than revenant, in fact revenant's PvP title say it all:
    Source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Conqueror#achievement2399

    Win 150 rated arena games as a revenant.Sending my enemies to meet the legends.
    Title: Title icon.png Champion Ritualist

    Now, at the same time, since ANet don't create e-specs with the same name as the PvP title, it mean that there will not be any "ritualist" e-spec for any profession.

    I wait with baited breath for Guardian to get Paragon, then.

    It's likely that "Ritualist", per se, will never get used as an elite spec name. We'll get some other name applied to any such elite spec, so they can leave the opportunity open to use similar themes and mechanics for another elite specialisation on another profession some time in the future. "Renegade" has a nice ring to it, maybe it could be based on summoning the warband members of one of the leaders of the revolution against the Flame Legion or something?

    All of the PvP title for each profession sound appaeling for e-specs.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I got a question for you rev guys.

    Since you guys are all about summoning people demons and all that is famous, do you have any way to summon a minion or pet to do your bidding?

    I haven-t seen anything like that yet

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Revenant wont get ritualist. Its not going to happen for them. You're going to have to get over that.

    No one is more fiting for ritualist than revenant, in fact revenant's PvP title say it all:
    Source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Conqueror#achievement2399

    Win 150 rated arena games as a revenant.Sending my enemies to meet the legends.
    Title: Title icon.png Champion Ritualist

    Now, at the same time, since ANet don't create e-specs with the same name as the PvP title, it mean that there will not be any "ritualist" e-spec for any profession.

    Why does it say "champion revered"?

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Revenant wont get ritualist. Its not going to happen for them. You're going to have to get over that.

    No one is more fiting for ritualist than revenant, in fact revenant's PvP title say it all:
    Source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Conqueror#achievement2399

    Win 150 rated arena games as a revenant.Sending my enemies to meet the legends.
    Title: Title icon.png Champion Ritualist

    Now, at the same time, since ANet don't create e-specs with the same name as the PvP title, it mean that there will not be any "ritualist" e-spec for any profession.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ritualist_Josa

    Explain why this ritualist is using necromancer skills.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Why does it say "champion revered"?

    Who know? At the end of the day the title is champion ritualist anyway.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ritualist_Josa

    Explain why this ritualist is using necromancer skills.

    Does he? Well I could just say that this "ritualist Josa" is channeling a legendary necromancer and you couldn't prove me wrong. Because that's just how revenant work.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Why does it say "champion revered"?

    Who know? At the end of the day the title is champion ritualist anyway.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ritualist_Josa

    Explain why this ritualist is using necromancer skills.

    Does he? Well I could just say that this "ritualist Josa" is channeling a legendary necromancer and you couldn't prove me wrong. Because that's just how revenant work.

    Actually I can. Because they're from 250 years ago and Revenant is new magic.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Why does it say "champion revered"?

    Who know? At the end of the day the title is champion ritualist anyway.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ritualist_Josa

    Explain why this ritualist is using necromancer skills.

    Does he? Well I could just say that this "ritualist Josa" is channeling a legendary necromancer and you couldn't prove me wrong. Because that's just how revenant work.

    Also that's not how the burden of proof works. You're making a claim, you need to show it to be the case. Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Why does it say "champion revered"?

    Who know? At the end of the day the title is champion ritualist anyway.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ritualist_Josa

    Explain why this ritualist is using necromancer skills.

    Does he? Well I could just say that this "ritualist Josa" is channeling a legendary necromancer and you couldn't prove me wrong. Because that's just how revenant work.

    Also that's not how the burden of proof works. You're making a claim, you need to show it to be the case. Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

    Well I have just as many evidences that you do and my claim make sense.
    You're saying that necromancer is a ritualist basing yourself on the skills an NPC whose name include the word "ritualist".
    I'm saying revenant is a ritualist basing myself on a title specific to the revenant. And on top of that I point out that revenant channel/summon (you know like ritualist did in GW) legend that can be varied and encompass any profession included the necromancer.

    You can deny as much as you want, the wording associated to the revenant always bring the player back to the GW ritualist's own wording. It's also not hard to see similarities between the revenant summoning legends and the ritualist borrowing the power of "human legends" like Songkai, Mingson, Daoshen, Xinrae, Glaive, Lee Sa, Kuurong, Naomei, Vorizun, Kaolai, Lee Min... etc. The only difference being that the revenant bind the legend to himself while the ritualist bind it to material objects (be it weapons or ashes).

    Obviously your opinion also have it's own valid arguments with the wording in the necromancer's blood magic refering to "rites" or "rituals". However, seeing as this wording refer mostly to "wells" which are in GW already a mechanism bound to the necromancer, it's difficult to really draw a parallele between this wording and the GW's ritualist.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Why does it say "champion revered"?

    Who know? At the end of the day the title is champion ritualist anyway.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ritualist_Josa

    Explain why this ritualist is using necromancer skills.

    Does he? Well I could just say that this "ritualist Josa" is channeling a legendary necromancer and you couldn't prove me wrong. Because that's just how revenant work.

    Also that's not how the burden of proof works. You're making a claim, you need to show it to be the case. Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

    Well I have just as many evidences that you do and my claim make sense.
    You're saying that necromancer is a ritualist basing yourself on the skills an NPC whose name include the word "ritualist".
    I'm saying revenant is a ritualist basing myself on a title specific to the revenant. And on top of that I point out that revenant channel/summon (you know like ritualist did in GW) legend that can be varied and encompass any profession included the necromancer.

    You can deny as much as you want, the wording associated to the revenant always bring the player back to the GW ritualist's own wording. It's also not hard to see similarities between the revenant summoning legends and the ritualist borrowing the power of "human legends" like Songkai, Mingson, Daoshen, Xinrae, Glaive, Lee Sa, Kuurong, Naomei, Vorizun, Kaolai, Lee Min... etc. The only difference being that the revenant bind the legend to himself while the ritualist bind it to material objects (be it weapons or ashes).

    Obviously your opinion also have it's own valid arguments with the wording in the necromancer's blood magic refering to "rites" or "rituals". However, seeing as this wording refer mostly to "wells" which are in GW already a mechanism bound to the necromancer, it's difficult to really draw a parallele between this wording and the GW's ritualist.

    Actually, I've pointed to countless in game examples from both GW1 and GW2 in the past, over and over again. And even pointed out how the Revenant's scope isn't limited to the realm of torment or the Underworld like the Necromancer/Ritualist is. Just because you're denying that doesn't mean I didn't do it.

  • Dadnir brings up a good point. Ritualists are usually channeling specific dead beings and using their skills. All the ash skills were historic figures. In my eye's ritualist and revenants use their magic by connecting to the mists/spirit realm, and yes they are connected. Dead spirits reside in different parts of the mists like the underworld or realm of torment, and other god realms. But yeah, both of these professions (rit and rev) act as a conduit between the mists and the physical world and draw power from it. Sure they act in different ways, like the revenant uses it to enhance its marshall capabilities and to basically use skills of very powerful beings. Revenants are also very new and aren't as well versed in their magic as other professions seeing as their hasn't been a long history of perfecting it. It's new and probably hard to use. Maybe since they are such rookies at using their magic they do not know how to form their own spells and skills with it, resulting in them just mimicking skills from the mists. But only those of legends that have left a large imprint and echo in the mists are easily aquirable or channeled. Like the radio frequency of those legends is higher quality and easier to tune into than some random joe shmo. Ritualists on the other hand are more well trained and have been perfecting their craft for centuries. They can channel lesser know spirits with a wider array of skills to draw from, and they can also harness mist magic more easily, such as in channeling and restoration magic. A revenant on the other hand might have a hard time controlling raw mist magic and making it do what they want.

    Now for how I think necromancers compare. Well, they don't necessarily channel specific people and aren't about using much mist magic. They instead manipulate life force and create their own abominations out of corpses and spirits. Necromancer magic seems seperate than mist magic to me. They aren't channeling and drawing from the mists as inspiration and strength for their abilities, they possess they're own energy and magic within themselves. They can communicate with the spirit realm, so that is a point up for the necromancers. But to me it seems like necro makes its own life from death, wether that be from stealing health with blood magic or by creating abominations from corpses that do not have the original spirit in tact and is instead powered like flesh robot/construct with magic. But, i've never seen a necromancer channel or commune with spirits to do their bidding. The shade minion feels more like a creation than an already existing entity. Probably similar to how grenth/dhuum created shades within the underworld. Revenants currently don't possess the ability to essentially take spirits captive to do theyre bidding, but they do channel their magic which is more on point with ritualist than what necromancer is.

    but all in all, both professions would be a good candidate. They could honestly take different parts of ritualist and split them between nec and rev's next elite specs. There's plenty of ritualist theme for the both of them.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ScottBroChill.3254 said:
    Dadnir brings up a good point. Ritualists are usually channeling specific dead beings and using their skills. All the ash skills were historic figures. In my eye's ritualist and revenants use their magic by connecting to the mists/spirit realm, and yes they are connected. Dead spirits reside in different parts of the mists like the underworld or realm of torment, and other god realms. But yeah, both of these professions (rit and rev) act as a conduit between the mists and the physical world and draw power from it. Sure they act in different ways, like the revenant uses it to enhance its marshall capabilities and to basically use skills of very powerful beings. Revenants are also very new and aren't as well versed in their magic as other professions seeing as their hasn't been a long history of perfecting it. It's new and probably hard to use. Maybe since they are such rookies at using their magic they do not know how to form their own spells and skills with it, resulting in them just mimicking skills from the mists. But only those of legends that have left a large imprint and echo in the mists are easily aquirable or channeled. Like the radio frequency of those legends is higher quality and easier to tune into than some random joe shmo. Ritualists on the other hand are more well trained and have been perfecting their craft for centuries. They can channel lesser know spirits with a wider array of skills to draw from, and they can also harness mist magic more easily, such as in channeling and restoration magic. A revenant on the other hand might have a hard time controlling raw mist magic and making it do what they want.

    Now for how I think necromancers compare. Well, they don't necessarily channel specific people and aren't about using much mist magic. They instead manipulate life force and create their own abominations out of corpses and spirits. Necromancer magic seems seperate than mist magic to me. They aren't channeling and drawing from the mists as inspiration and strength for their abilities, they possess they're own energy and magic within themselves. They can communicate with the spirit realm, so that is a point up for the necromancers. But to me it seems like necro makes its own life from death, wether that be from stealing health with blood magic or by creating abominations from corpses that do not have the original spirit in tact and is instead powered like flesh robot/construct with magic. But, i've never seen a necromancer channel or commune with spirits to do their bidding. The shade minion feels more like a creation than an already existing entity. Probably similar to how grenth/dhuum created shades within the underworld. Revenants currently don't possess the ability to essentially take spirits captive to do theyre bidding, but they do channel their magic which is more on point with ritualist than what necromancer is.

    but all in all, both professions would be a good candidate. They could honestly take different parts of ritualist and split them between nec and rev's next elite specs. There's plenty of ritualist theme for the both of them.

    Since this argument wont die, I decided to Build a concept for the two specs. Not the entire thing because I don't have that kind of energy, but making it how I personally would like it. So, take a look. As for Lore. Our understanding of the Mists is different than it was 250 years ago. Back in GW1 the humans only saw it as the realm of the gods and the dead. Now we know its much much more. Which seems to be a mistake everyone else is making. Either way, take a look.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/100747/elite-spec-ritualist-for-both-necromancer-and-revenant#latest

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    I would really laugh and laugh if anet gives us Balthazar as legend and a ranged gs.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 19, 2020

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Revenant wont get ritualist. Its not going to happen for them. You're going to have to get over that.

    No one is more fiting for ritualist than revenant, in fact revenant's PvP title say it all:
    Source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Conqueror#achievement2399

    Win 150 rated arena games as a revenant.Sending my enemies to meet the legends.
    Title: Title icon.png Champion Ritualist

    Now, at the same time, since ANet don't create e-specs with the same name as the PvP title, it mean that there will not be any "ritualist" e-spec for any profession.

    Why does it say "champion revered"?

    There's something a little strange with the revenant PvP title. The achievement is called "champion revered", but the actual title unlocked by completing it is "champion ritualist".

    @ScottBroChill.3254 said:
    Dadnir brings up a good point. Ritualists are usually channeling specific dead beings and using their skills. All the ash skills were historic figures. In my eye's ritualist and revenants use their magic by connecting to the mists/spirit realm, and yes they are connected. Dead spirits reside in different parts of the mists like the underworld or realm of torment, and other god realms. But yeah, both of these professions (rit and rev) act as a conduit between the mists and the physical world and draw power from it. Sure they act in different ways, like the revenant uses it to enhance its marshall capabilities and to basically use skills of very powerful beings. Revenants are also very new and aren't as well versed in their magic as other professions seeing as their hasn't been a long history of perfecting it. It's new and probably hard to use. Maybe since they are such rookies at using their magic they do not know how to form their own spells and skills with it, resulting in them just mimicking skills from the mists. But only those of legends that have left a large imprint and echo in the mists are easily aquirable or channeled. Like the radio frequency of those legends is higher quality and easier to tune into than some random joe shmo. Ritualists on the other hand are more well trained and have been perfecting their craft for centuries. They can channel lesser know spirits with a wider array of skills to draw from, and they can also harness mist magic more easily, such as in channeling and restoration magic. A revenant on the other hand might have a hard time controlling raw mist magic and making it do what they want.

    Now for how I think necromancers compare. Well, they don't necessarily channel specific people and aren't about using much mist magic. They instead manipulate life force and create their own abominations out of corpses and spirits. Necromancer magic seems seperate than mist magic to me. They aren't channeling and drawing from the mists as inspiration and strength for their abilities, they possess they're own energy and magic within themselves. They can communicate with the spirit realm, so that is a point up for the necromancers. But to me it seems like necro makes its own life from death, wether that be from stealing health with blood magic or by creating abominations from corpses that do not have the original spirit in tact and is instead powered like flesh robot/construct with magic. But, i've never seen a necromancer channel or commune with spirits to do their bidding. The shade minion feels more like a creation than an already existing entity. Probably similar to how grenth/dhuum created shades within the underworld. Revenants currently don't possess the ability to essentially take spirits captive to do theyre bidding, but they do channel their magic which is more on point with ritualist than what necromancer is.

    but all in all, both professions would be a good candidate. They could honestly take different parts of ritualist and split them between nec and rev's next elite specs. There's plenty of ritualist theme for the both of them.

    I think there is also a distinction in that what the revenants channel does not need to be the actual spirit of the legend in question.

    For instance, it's questionable whether Shiro's spirit even still exists. Underworld quests suggested that killing a spirit in the Underworld could be killing it permanently, so killing Shiro at the Gate of Madness possibly means his spirit is destroyed. Possibly more notably, when the revenant channels Joko to break out of the Sunspear Great Hall, this is channeling an echo of Joko himself breaking out of Balthazar's prison.

    What I think is going on is that while ritualists do call on souls, revenant legends are mostly drawing power from fractals. There are probably fractals of the defeat of Shiro and Mallyx, of Glint's lair, of Jalis performing the Rite of the Great Dwarf, Ventari inscribing the Tablet (which is probably not a particularly violent fractal) and Kalla fighting against the Flame Legion - these are all events of similar or greater significance to fractals we've seen. It's possible that the revenant can also draw on the spirit directly when that spirit is available (example: Glint), but back in pre-release discussions of the revenant, we were pretty much told point blank that the revenant does not need to contact the actual soul of the original being that forged the legend in order to channel the legend, but often instead channels the echoes in the Mists left behind by that being's actions.

  • NaiveBayes.2587NaiveBayes.2587 Member ✭✭
    edited March 19, 2020

    From my point of view: Revenant was clearly designed by ANet to be the spiritual successor to the Ritualist and I think it's just wilful ignorance to think otherwise. It might not be so mechanically but that's because it had to be a soldier profession to complete the 3x3x3. It is anyway clear as day that this is the case. Any relation between ritualists and other professions before revenant was announced/released is just a lay-over from the fact that ANet put bits and pieces from GW1 professions that didn't make it into GW2 as their "own-thing". Once revenant came about though it was clearly design to be ritualist's successor, it even got a terrible spirit summoning spec... You can look into all the lore and history as much as you want but it really isn't that deep...

    I really wish someone from ANet could just come here and put a nail in the coffin of this debate and just tell the community what's what

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @NaiveBayes.2587 said:
    From my point of view: Revenant was clearly designed by ANet to be the spiritual successor to the Ritualist and I think it's just wilful ignorance to think otherwise. It might not be so mechanically but that's because it had to be a soldier profession to complete the 3x3x3. It is anyway clear as day that this is the case. Any relation between ritualists and other professions before revenant was announced/released is just a lay-over from the fact that ANet put bits and pieces from GW1 professions that didn't make it into GW2 as their "own-thing". Once revenant came about though it was clearly design to be ritualist's successor, it even got a terrible spirit summoning spec... You can look into all the lore and history as much as you want but it really isn't that deep...

    I really wish someone from ANet could just come here and put a nail in the coffin of this debate and just tell the community what's what

    The person who designed the class no longer works for Anet.

    “Be like water”-Bruce Lee

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    @NaiveBayes.2587 said:
    From my point of view: Revenant was clearly designed by ANet to be the spiritual successor to the Ritualist and I think it's just wilful ignorance to think otherwise. It might not be so mechanically but that's because it had to be a soldier profession to complete the 3x3x3. It is anyway clear as day that this is the case. Any relation between ritualists and other professions before revenant was announced/released is just a lay-over from the fact that ANet put bits and pieces from GW1 professions that didn't make it into GW2 as their "own-thing". Once revenant came about though it was clearly design to be ritualist's successor, it even got a terrible spirit summoning spec... You can look into all the lore and history as much as you want but it really isn't that deep...

    I really wish someone from ANet could just come here and put a nail in the coffin of this debate and just tell the community what's what

    A light armored revenant would be the best profession in the game with correct weapon/legend skills. I still dream about it sometimes.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @NaiveBayes.2587 said:
    From my point of view: Revenant was clearly designed by ANet to be the spiritual successor to the Ritualist and I think it's just wilful ignorance to think otherwise. It might not be so mechanically but that's because it had to be a soldier profession to complete the 3x3x3. It is anyway clear as day that this is the case. Any relation between ritualists and other professions before revenant was announced/released is just a lay-over from the fact that ANet put bits and pieces from GW1 professions that didn't make it into GW2 as their "own-thing". Once revenant came about though it was clearly design to be ritualist's successor, it even got a terrible spirit summoning spec... You can look into all the lore and history as much as you want but it really isn't that deep...

    I really wish someone from ANet could just come here and put a nail in the coffin of this debate and just tell the community what's what

    Engineer is the spiritual successor to the Ritualist. In fact, the Ritualist existed at all because ArenaNet wanted to make an engineer, but they couldn't justify bringing that level of technology into Guild Wars 1, so they found a way to make a fantasy equivalent instead. From memory, they repeated this in GW2's development and said that they saw the Engineer as the successor to the Ritualist playstyle.

    There were a lot of threads before the HoT announcement with people suggesting that since the Dervish apparently could not be made playable in GW2 (since it was seen as being too closely tied to the gods) and the Ritualist also would not be reused (since the Engineer was its replacement), that Ritualist lore could be used to make a 'spirit warrior' profession that mimicked dervish avatars in a religiously-neutral way by summoning spirits into their own bodies. And then the Revenant got announced.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I love revenant. Like, it's my martial class of choice. I like it a lot more than reaper. But you guys are trying desperately hard to make it something it's not. Revenant's mechanical design is nothing close to Ritualist. And we can argue till we're all blue in the face about how related the Shamanistic class, Ritualist, related to Revenant and necromancer. But this wont change how different the Revenant's mechanical design is from Ritualist.

    Revenant's mechanical design and Ritualist's Mechanical design are like oil and water. They do not mesh well at all. You have one of the most martial profession in the game, more martial than Guardian and almost as martial as warrior. They're very geared towards melee with somewhat clunky ranged weapons. And Ritualist which was a backline heavy support profession with very little melee prowess. They did have Spirits strength but even with that they were kinda sitting ducks in melee with minimal protection.

    The Ritualist is a ranged caster. What support for long range does the Revenant offer? Ventari Tablet? Hammer? That's not good enough. They need to have enough utility at long range to keep them in the correct position in combat.

    The Revenant is a melee bruiser. What Support does the Ritualist offer them? Their spirit weapons maybe. But what people ask for is spirits not the spirit weapons. Which is anti synthetic with their martial playstyle. You could have a spec that channels for self and party buffs like the weapon spells. But then again a paragon legend would do the same and how would that be much different from Herald? How would spirits diversify itself from Renegade which I'd say is the worst designed elite spec in PoF that you guys argued was the ritualist even though it played nothing like the ritualist and was extremely clunky [removing the warband would make it soooooo much better]. But now that we got Cantha we're asking for another failed elite spec?

    You guys are a trip. But I don't want to be double disappointed with revenant. Disappointed in another poorly designed shoehorned elite spec for a cool class and disappointed for the ritualist which would never get close to the Veteran players expectations.

  • Elric.4713Elric.4713 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:
    I love revenant. Like, it's my martial class of choice. I like it a lot more than reaper. But you guys are trying desperately hard to make it something it's not. Revenant's mechanical design is nothing close to Ritualist. And we can argue till we're all blue in the face about how related the Shamanistic class, Ritualist, related to Revenant and necromancer. But this wont change how different the Revenant's mechanical design is from Ritualist.

    Revenant's mechanical design and Ritualist's Mechanical design are like oil and water. They do not mesh well at all. You have one of the most martial profession in the game, more martial than Guardian and almost as martial as warrior. They're very geared towards melee with somewhat clunky ranged weapons. And Ritualist which was a backline heavy support profession with very little melee prowess. They did have Spirits strength but even with that they were kinda sitting ducks in melee with minimal protection.

    The Ritualist is a ranged caster. What support for long range does the Revenant offer? Ventari Tablet? Hammer? That's not good enough. They need to have enough utility at long range to keep them in the correct position in combat.

    The Revenant is a melee bruiser. What Support does the Ritualist offer them? Their spirit weapons maybe. But what people ask for is spirits not the spirit weapons. Which is anti synthetic with their martial playstyle. You could have a spec that channels for self and party buffs like the weapon spells. But then again a paragon legend would do the same and how would that be much different from Herald? How would spirits diversify itself from Renegade which I'd say is the worst designed elite spec in PoF that you guys argued was the ritualist even though it played nothing like the ritualist and was extremely clunky [removing the warband would make it soooooo much better]. But now that we got Cantha we're asking for another failed elite spec?

    You guys are a trip. But I don't want to be double disappointed with revenant. Disappointed in another poorly designed shoehorned elite spec for a cool class and disappointed for the ritualist which would never get close to the Veteran players expectations.

    At the moment yes, Rev favors melee especially that hammer is trash now. But Arena Net themselves explained the profession as Melee or Ranged and as Magic-Wielding Fighter, and that's why I'm not for greatsword and further limiting the professions gameplay.
    Instead I'm asking for Channeling Magic oriented specialization with possibly scepter and enhanced ranged gameplay, as Kalla already has spirits such as they are.

    👻Legendary Ritualist Stance - Invoke the power of the legendary ritualist Master Togo.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Elric.4713 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    I love revenant. Like, it's my martial class of choice. I like it a lot more than reaper. But you guys are trying desperately hard to make it something it's not. Revenant's mechanical design is nothing close to Ritualist. And we can argue till we're all blue in the face about how related the Shamanistic class, Ritualist, related to Revenant and necromancer. But this wont change how different the Revenant's mechanical design is from Ritualist.

    Revenant's mechanical design and Ritualist's Mechanical design are like oil and water. They do not mesh well at all. You have one of the most martial profession in the game, more martial than Guardian and almost as martial as warrior. They're very geared towards melee with somewhat clunky ranged weapons. And Ritualist which was a backline heavy support profession with very little melee prowess. They did have Spirits strength but even with that they were kinda sitting ducks in melee with minimal protection.

    The Ritualist is a ranged caster. What support for long range does the Revenant offer? Ventari Tablet? Hammer? That's not good enough. They need to have enough utility at long range to keep them in the correct position in combat.

    The Revenant is a melee bruiser. What Support does the Ritualist offer them? Their spirit weapons maybe. But what people ask for is spirits not the spirit weapons. Which is anti synthetic with their martial playstyle. You could have a spec that channels for self and party buffs like the weapon spells. But then again a paragon legend would do the same and how would that be much different from Herald? How would spirits diversify itself from Renegade which I'd say is the worst designed elite spec in PoF that you guys argued was the ritualist even though it played nothing like the ritualist and was extremely clunky [removing the warband would make it soooooo much better]. But now that we got Cantha we're asking for another failed elite spec?

    You guys are a trip. But I don't want to be double disappointed with revenant. Disappointed in another poorly designed shoehorned elite spec for a cool class and disappointed for the ritualist which would never get close to the Veteran players expectations.

    At the moment yes, Rev favors melee especially that hammer is trash now. But Arena Net themselves explained the profession as Melee or Ranged and as Magic-Wielding Fighter, and that's why I'm not for greatsword and further limiting the professions gameplay.
    Instead I'm asking for Channeling Magic oriented specialization with possibly scepter and enhanced ranged gameplay, as Kalla already has spirits such as they are.

    I'm not only talking about their weapon options, but the Utility options too. The ranged options on the revenant's utility bar are extremely limited with only really the Kalla kit that actually supports it. Mallyx having banish enchantment and Shiro having Impossible odds is about it when it comes to ranged moves you'd really want with a ranged build. You don't want to jump into combat like both do and Shiro does have a dodge back, which is helpful but its not designed for Melee. You can't just look at the revenant's Weapons and think "This is the only aspect of the class that suggests they're mostly a martial melee bruiser" but also their utility. And Revenant doesn't have the appropriate utility to function nearly as effectively at range. Warriors are much the same way. They're far better in melee and midline. Mesmers, Necromancers, Core engineer and Elementalists are extremely effective at ranged. And that's OKAY! Its perfectly reasonable that Revenant isn't best at range. But this does put a damper on them since You won't be able to use a second ranged elite spec with Kalla to fill in the gaps between them. Its just the inharrent flaw of their mechanical design in relationship to Ritualist.

    Now, If you want to discuss revenant getting more skills for their legendary stances and general purpose utility skills I'm 110% on board with you! But until then, we have to look at the reality of the class and what it is now.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 21, 2020

    Similar comments can be made for guardian. It's a property of the heavy armour class in general that you can play range with them, but they're really designed for getting stuck in.

    Mind you, I don't think it's as bad as you imply. Ventari can be fairly stand-off, albeit as a stand-off support. Mallyx can blow his energy on spamming Banish Enchantment. Shiro can do the same with Impossible Odds, and while on a ranged weapon he's not likely to be teleporting into melee, Riposting Shadows is still useful for maintaining a gap.

    At the bottom line, though, like guardian and warrior, it's an implicit assumption of playing revenant that you'll go into melee. Just a question of whether you have the option to hang back when needed or if you're fully committed to melee.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Similar comments can be made for guardian. It's a property of the heavy armour class in general that you can play range with them, but they're really designed for getting stuck in.

    Mind you, I don't think it's as bad as you imply. Ventari can be fairly stand-off, albeit as a stand-off support. Mallyx can blow his energy on spamming Banish Enchantment. Shiro can do the same with Impossible Odds, and while on a ranged weapon he's not likely to be teleporting into melee, Riposting Shadows is still useful for maintaining a gap.

    At the bottom line, though, like guardian and warrior, it's an implicit assumption of playing revenant that you'll go into melee. Just a question of whether you have the option to hang back when needed or if you're fully committed to melee.

    You don't have very good options for a full commitment for range. Guardian I would argue does. And honestly, mechanically, Ritualist probably wouldn't be a terrible fit onto guardian. In terms of their lore? Not quite. All of the Light armored classes are extremely good in pure range. We can't say the same for all the melee classes. Which is okay.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Similar comments can be made for guardian. It's a property of the heavy armour class in general that you can play range with them, but they're really designed for getting stuck in.

    Mind you, I don't think it's as bad as you imply. Ventari can be fairly stand-off, albeit as a stand-off support. Mallyx can blow his energy on spamming Banish Enchantment. Shiro can do the same with Impossible Odds, and while on a ranged weapon he's not likely to be teleporting into melee, Riposting Shadows is still useful for maintaining a gap.

    At the bottom line, though, like guardian and warrior, it's an implicit assumption of playing revenant that you'll go into melee. Just a question of whether you have the option to hang back when needed or if you're fully committed to melee.

    You don't have very good options for a full commitment for range. Guardian I would argue does. And honestly, mechanically, Ritualist probably wouldn't be a terrible fit onto guardian. In terms of their lore? Not quite. All of the Light armored classes are extremely good in pure range. We can't say the same for all the melee classes. Which is okay.

    Sure, guardian can go staff/scepter (or longbow for one of those if DH) and pick utilities oriented towards supporting a ranged group. So can warrior, technically, except the weapons are longbow and rifle. Similar principle - the professions can go ranged, but they're not really designed to.

    Conversely, scholars when originally designed had mostly ranged options and a token melee (or melee-like) option, although the realities of the game mean that they often tend to end up going melee anyway.

  • Rashagar.8349Rashagar.8349 Member ✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    And the point that it would be nice to see legends of the norn - a race whose entire culture is based around the concept of legend - is a valid one.
    Who would that be? Jora, I consider to be no better than Togo - AFAIK, everything we know about her deeds are things she did along with the GW1 PC. If you can take a potential legend and ask "why isn't the GW1 PC the legend instead", then I'm inclined to think you're not being ambitious enough with your choice. Svanir is, honestly, borderline - from the perspective of the norn, he was one scary monster among many in their history, the only reason I'd even consider him is because he inspired the Sons of Svanir. Asgeir is, I think, probably the strongest candidate that we know about.

    *Popping out of the shadows to mention my favourite Norn legend candidate, Owl, again.

  • Doctor.1384Doctor.1384 Member ✭✭✭

    No one wants ritualist because you cant have greatsword on a ritualist because ritualist cant have greatsword

  • Elric.4713Elric.4713 Member ✭✭✭

    So I've been thinking about scepter some more and the fact that we need a new off-hand to pair it with. Well, if they don't want to give us new core weapons (they should) or pair scepter with something else for the new specialization, it could straight up change sword and axe skills when they're paired with it. For example, Temporal Rift can turn into Spirit Rift that work similarly but requires a target and after knocking it down applies vulnerability.

    👻Legendary Ritualist Stance - Invoke the power of the legendary ritualist Master Togo.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2020

    @Doctor.1384 said:
    No one wants ritualist because you cant have greatsword on a ritualist because ritualist cant have greatsword

    A rev that call some legend ritualist where utilities would be more legends :O that would work like kits on its utilities with diferent ffects o.O fused into the GS!!!
    While using this legend Rev would be locked into GS only and would Loose the F keys to swap legens.
    LEGENDARY LEGENDCEPTION!!!!!

    On a serious note it is hard to predict wich and what will be added to Rev..
    Theres alot of characters from Cantha alone that would fit for amazing elite legends in theme and builds design.

  • I agree that Rev has inspiration from Ritualist. As for the weapon I'd like greatsword as a fast paced ranged / minion option. Imagined when you shealth the weapon it becomes enchanted and starts moving around on its own and aiding you in combat. (think like how balthazar's sword moves around ) . when drawn it can be a fast paced melee power weapon thats damage comes from its skills not its AA. I mean sword does a good amount of sustain but its boring and no more legendary really compilements shiro well. I mean glint is kinda meh if you have a good build for might and jalus is ok but very passive.

    Honestly a think rev could use a little love in the skills offered by most of its legends.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Elric.4713 said:
    So I've been thinking about scepter some more and the fact that we need a new off-hand to pair it with. Well, if they don't want to give us new core weapons (they should) or pair scepter with something else for the new specialization, it could straight up change sword and axe skills when they're paired with it. For example, Temporal Rift can turn into Spirit Rift that work similarly but requires a target and after knocking it down applies vulnerability.

    It's a lot of hoops to jump through to get it to work. I had to design a mechanic that actually flies in the face of Revenant's core identity just to get close and it still wasn't even close enough.

    You may be beginning to see its complications and its only going to get worse from here.

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2020

    @Doctor.1384 said:
    No one wants ritualist because you cant have greatsword on a ritualist because ritualist cant have greatsword

    says who? I played a Rit/Derv Spirit's Strength Scythe build in GW1... Professions in GW1 weren't limited by weapon choice like they are in GW2, so literally any profession could use anything. There were some melee weapon Rit builds, that's just a fact. And GS on Rev for a Rit inspired E-spec wouldn't necessarily have to function as full melee either, which further adds to the idea that it would be possible to get a Rit inspired spec for Rev and also get GS at the same time. Personally, I'd rather Scepter + Focus, but think GS could work as well

  • @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @Doctor.1384 said:
    No one wants ritualist because you cant have greatsword on a ritualist because ritualist cant have greatsword

    says who? I played a Rit/Derv Spirit's Strength Scythe build in GW1... Professions in GW1 weren't limited by weapon choice like they are in GW2, so literally any profession could use anything. There were some melee weapon Rit builds, that's just a fact. And GS on Rev for a Rit inspired E-spec wouldn't necessarily have to function as full melee either, which further adds to the idea that it would be possible to get a Rit inspired spec for Rev and also get GS at the same time. Personally, I'd rather Scepter + Focus, but think GS could work as well

    Can confirm. Used to mess around with spirit strength and a spear, but I would dabble with melee weapons occasionally. Rits just didn't have enough armor for the front lines, but revs do.

  • It just dawn on me, but I'd love the next elite spec to be Nika and for or it be really power offensive. While, id prefer Greatsword I think it would be ok if we got dagger for both slots. Shiro imo for pve doesnt really go well with much and we basically just camp sword / sword. (I'll reiterate im talking for power here).

    It terms of ritualist tho, they should add a legend to core for invocation filling that fantasy and add scepter/ focus / dagger with that. God knows rev is seriously lacking in the customization and its mainly due to our inability to customize our skill bars and extremely small weapon pool.

    Imo I want the legend to be a memorable character with a SOLID weapon and skill set. Kalla was awful because she came from no where im terms of gw1 lore, her weapon shortbow was wonky (bloodbane path of frustration and seven arrow of missing) and the spirits that suck with geometry. It was half decent at condi but has always felt like hybrid. I really hope the 3rd elite will do better because kalla and glint have honestly been a such a hard let down.

  • @Lily.1935 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Ritualist summons the dead. The revenant has no such limitations. This might be hard for you to hear this, but the only limitation the Revenant has is that the person they're channeling has to currently be in the mists. It doesn't mean they have to be dead. We saw this with Palawa Joko in the Living story and its likely that the revenant could channel someone like Arkk who never technically died but is lost in the mists. You want to hyper narrow the Revenant's scope to the Death magic that the Ritualist and Necromancer both share. When there is no such limitations. Revenant magic is chaotic and unstable. The stabilizing element is their Legend which grants them access to their abilities. They are more akin to a Blue mage. I will not ignore some of the similarities they have with both necromancer and Ritualist, they do have some. But I also can't ignore the Identity of the ritualist which is that of a Shaman dancer, using bones and ashes to commune with the dead.

    I think it's a bit deeper than that. Revenants have to channel someone which had a significant enough impact to leave a strong echo in the Mists. Joko, for instance, is an individual who has shaped Elonian history for centuries, and not just in the obvious way - the rise to power of the Ossa family and the founding of the Order of Whispers were both in response to him. He's definitely a revenant legend candidate, albeit probably one the PC will never use thanks to that "ugh, never again" response. There are actually pretty strong signs that, contrary to what the PC thought, Joko had already left the mists at that point, but there was still enough there to use.

    Characters whose main claim to fame is opposing a particular villain, however, do not seem to qualify - in these cases, it's the villain that created a big enough impact for the legend to form around. For instance, Shiro represents the events of Factions and the Jade Wind - Vizu, Archemorous, and the others are part of Shiro's legend. The exception seems to be when the primary actor is of the power level of a god or Elder Dragon, or is a dependent champion of an Elder Dragon, such as the Great Destroyer. Now, I don't think ArenaNet has explicitly stated that these are the requirements, but it does seem to fit what we've seen thus far - a legend must have had a significant impact on at least one culture, and they have to do so at least partially on their own initiative rather than simply trying to stop someone else.

    Ironically, if we were to have another legend focused around summoning spirits, I could see it being King Adelbern.

    There is a problem with this hypothesis of yours. And that's Mallyx. Mallyx is not a significant demon in the lore of Tyria and had little individual impact on the story. Varesh Ossa on the other hand was quite prominent. There is no suggestion that the Revenant can channels legends that are currently in Tyria, although considering that Time is irrelevant to the mists, they could channel a version of King Adelbern. Although if you wanted to play like the king he'd function more like a Minion Master as opposed to a Spirit spammer since he's acting as a commander of forces not a conjurer of the mists.

    The Legends must be significant enough in some way. Either powerful or legendary. Much of what the Revenant does would technically allow them to act as any profession in the game, They could channel a necromancer or warrior just fine and gain there abilities. Arkk is a legend that could be channeled. If personal legend is a factor, he's known among Mist being. Otherwise his mother who spearheaded the fractals project in the first place would be a legend enough to be called on.

    Usoku Is such a legend that would satisfy your criteria though. His actions are influenced by Shiro, but Shiro's actions were influenced by a minor demon in the story.

    Um yes Mallyx was huge tho, He was a last general of Abaddon and was out to kill Kormir AFTER she had ascended to godhood. A feat well within his capabilities. He was lvl 33 in Hard Mode meaning he was stronger than Abaddon himself. He was kitten near unkillable in GW1. No, he was part of the main story but he did play a huge part of the story in the Realm of Torment. I like the fact the GW2 gives him a nod as rev is suppose to be a veteran class its nice to see hardcore GW1 stuff acknowledge. Varesh was just a traitor by comparison and not even relevant in term of power.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Ritualist summons the dead. The revenant has no such limitations. This might be hard for you to hear this, but the only limitation the Revenant has is that the person they're channeling has to currently be in the mists. It doesn't mean they have to be dead. We saw this with Palawa Joko in the Living story and its likely that the revenant could channel someone like Arkk who never technically died but is lost in the mists. You want to hyper narrow the Revenant's scope to the Death magic that the Ritualist and Necromancer both share. When there is no such limitations. Revenant magic is chaotic and unstable. The stabilizing element is their Legend which grants them access to their abilities. They are more akin to a Blue mage. I will not ignore some of the similarities they have with both necromancer and Ritualist, they do have some. But I also can't ignore the Identity of the ritualist which is that of a Shaman dancer, using bones and ashes to commune with the dead.

    I think it's a bit deeper than that. Revenants have to channel someone which had a significant enough impact to leave a strong echo in the Mists. Joko, for instance, is an individual who has shaped Elonian history for centuries, and not just in the obvious way - the rise to power of the Ossa family and the founding of the Order of Whispers were both in response to him. He's definitely a revenant legend candidate, albeit probably one the PC will never use thanks to that "ugh, never again" response. There are actually pretty strong signs that, contrary to what the PC thought, Joko had already left the mists at that point, but there was still enough there to use.

    Characters whose main claim to fame is opposing a particular villain, however, do not seem to qualify - in these cases, it's the villain that created a big enough impact for the legend to form around. For instance, Shiro represents the events of Factions and the Jade Wind - Vizu, Archemorous, and the others are part of Shiro's legend. The exception seems to be when the primary actor is of the power level of a god or Elder Dragon, or is a dependent champion of an Elder Dragon, such as the Great Destroyer. Now, I don't think ArenaNet has explicitly stated that these are the requirements, but it does seem to fit what we've seen thus far - a legend must have had a significant impact on at least one culture, and they have to do so at least partially on their own initiative rather than simply trying to stop someone else.

    Ironically, if we were to have another legend focused around summoning spirits, I could see it being King Adelbern.

    There is a problem with this hypothesis of yours. And that's Mallyx. Mallyx is not a significant demon in the lore of Tyria and had little individual impact on the story. Varesh Ossa on the other hand was quite prominent. There is no suggestion that the Revenant can channels legends that are currently in Tyria, although considering that Time is irrelevant to the mists, they could channel a version of King Adelbern. Although if you wanted to play like the king he'd function more like a Minion Master as opposed to a Spirit spammer since he's acting as a commander of forces not a conjurer of the mists.

    The Legends must be significant enough in some way. Either powerful or legendary. Much of what the Revenant does would technically allow them to act as any profession in the game, They could channel a necromancer or warrior just fine and gain there abilities. Arkk is a legend that could be channeled. If personal legend is a factor, he's known among Mist being. Otherwise his mother who spearheaded the fractals project in the first place would be a legend enough to be called on.

    Usoku Is such a legend that would satisfy your criteria though. His actions are influenced by Shiro, but Shiro's actions were influenced by a minor demon in the story.

    Um yes Mallyx was huge tho, He was a last general of Abaddon and was out to kill Kormir AFTER she had ascended to godhood. A feat well within his capabilities. He was lvl 33 in Hard Mode meaning he was stronger than Abaddon himself. He was kitten near unkillable in GW1. No, he was part of the main story but he did play a huge part of the story in the Realm of Torment. I like the fact the GW2 gives him a nod as rev is suppose to be a veteran class its nice to see hardcore GW1 stuff acknowledge. Varesh was just a traitor by comparison and not even relevant in term of power.

    Power is not the determining factor. There really isn't a criteria on what legends can be summoned at all. Mallyx isn't a well known historical figure. This is just fact. How powerful he was is irrelevant. Look at Ventari. A very well known legend, but not known for his power. In his time he was no more powerful than your average centaur commander which we killed dozens in the story like they were nothing. He was a pacifist first. His legend is one that can be called on too. If power was a determining factor Ventari would be too weak