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The Post patch discussion, how do we feel about revenant now?

Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

Personally, as a rev main I feel broken and incomplete as a class at this stage. Yes Condi rev CAN and IS strong but it doesn't mean the class is not in a bad place and honestly it really is right now. Power revenant feels TERRIBLE to play and it feels to me like condi is the only way to go; Some traits feel next to worthless and there are a lot of issues the class still has such as not having a core ranged condi-weapon which shoe-horns them into trying to run ren but outside of PvE renegade just doesn't cut the mustard.

Pair this with staff getting destroyed, and the hammer being bashed into bits and we are left with unrewarding gameplay. I've been running builds in WvW trying to find something OTHER than mallyx that works because I know they are about to nerf it into oblivion. So Im at a loss and not sure how to make it work, I feel like we got hit straight in the core and we can't find our air again. I can get it to function, but it feels clunky and less fluid with more restrictions and higher cost than I feel is necessary at any give time and I almost feel like our class needs a rework or to be pushed back a couple patches. Prior to the patch I felt rev was fine, it needed its damage nerfed but EVERYTHING else didn't need to happen and could of been left alone with our damage modifiers and burst being toned down.

Yet some classes feel relatively fine after the patch. (We all know who they are.)

So tell me how do my fellow revenants feel? Do you have ideas on how this could be fixed, and have you been having any luck with builds that are lesser known? (Outside of Mallyx due to us all knowing the time is coming to see him be once again clapped by the nerf bat.)

Comments

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Condi surely works. Surprising, renegade is much better now, but SB still highly questionable. Power, I have not played it and did not see anyone play it (maybe 1-2 games).

    Hammer does not work. Staff, no damage.

  • Xca.9721Xca.9721 Member ✭✭✭

    I still play Power Rev in SPVP and it feels okay, however the risk of being more squishy compared to condi rev or other condi classes is not really worth the damage output power rev can do now, even with Berserker stats. I also started playing Retribution instead of Devastation cause the trait line is pretty garbage now.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 16, 2020

    [WvW] This is what I have been playing 95% of the time I'm on my Rev, with slight variations to sigils, stats, and trait choices. Aside from Staff 5 being dumpstered, the build feels fine. No stunbreak on swap is not a huge hit when I have a lot of stab, evades, and overall mobility. Immob break is nice because there has been a big increase in immob cancer post-patch. I went back to Cleansing Channel because I didn't really find myself breaking stun that much, and when I would it would usually be followed up by an evade or block so the follow-up stab from Glaring Resolve didn't feel necessary. Damage feels significantly lower, but I can still do good burst (Enchanted Daggers and Impossible Odds did not get touched). Outnumbered is harder, but I don't think that issue is unique to Rev. Certain matchups are also harder, such as Thief as a whole and most condi builds, but in general the build doesn't feel totally destroyed. I still enjoy it, but I do admit it is a bit less fun. I don't really see many power Revs anymore.

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAwyZlxQHMPyh1RNMO6hRSfMCKgl+U6qC-zRRYBRHyXMcBlSbJQmRQnFQvhgTDA-e

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Hammer skill 2 has needed a fix since forever, and staff skill 5 needs to lose the self-root. A windup is okay, but you should be able to move during it. Right now, it's no longer useful as a mobility skill, and it's easy for the enemy to avoid accidentally.

    Both can probably use some DPS buffs to compensate for the lost damage on their skill 5s, especially Staff where it was where the spike really was. Maybe it could have a mechanic whereby if you get knockbacks with the staff, staff skill 2 gets an improved effect if used within a certain period of time? That way, the CC and the damage is still separated, but you're rewarded for a well-executed Surge.

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭

    I miss Rampant Vex, Venom Enhancement, and Spontaneous Destruction. Now my shortbow autos only have slightly longer bleeds and torment sigil procs. :'(

  • zaswer.5246zaswer.5246 Member ✭✭

    Well power renegade is a bit better, you can use it, but it is in a similar position to power reaper (more or less).
    About the changes i liked them, we need more changes to get rev to its full potencial but its a good first step.
    If it were me i would mix the 2 movility skills from shiro into one like the old ranger sword skill(evasion backwards and leap as second cast) , and in the slot left i would get a dmg skill ( something like a guardian sumoned sword , like a jade projectile or similar).
    Also this one might be unpopular but what if we changed assasins precence to invocation and named it legendary presence? I mean i know AP is not a bad trait but this way we could be a little more greedy in devastation wich i think fits more with the tematic of shiro and we would get a good area buff like spotter but with different effects depending on the legend we use wich i think fits fine in invocation .
    At least i think rev should have more unique buff and not just the few boons we get like fury power etc , we need something to get a little spotlight even if only as suports and i think it would be just fine this way , it could work like this: in shiro it gives 150power , jalis 150thoughness, ventari could be 150 healing , mallinx could be expertice(condi duration) glint could be boonduration and finaly got kalla you could have a mix 75feroc 75 condidmg or you could do it more unique and share kallas fervor to your allies.

  • DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well, I'd like to sum up what currently is in a desperate need of fixes.

    Weapon Skills:

    • Axe Frigid Blitz - occassionally doesn't follow the target resulting in dealing 0 damage and energy waste
    • Sword Unrelenting Assault - frequently doesn't follow the target resulting in 0 damage and energy waste
    • Hammer Coalescence of Ruin - frequently disappears in the terrain resulting in 0 damage and energy waste
    • Shortbow Bloodbane Path - frequently doesn't hit the target resulting in 0 damage and energy waste
    • Shortbow Spiritcrush - unable to be used from behind or side. We are playing Revenant, come on
    • Shortbow Sevenshot - this skill is so unreliable against moving targets so that it's not worth using for me
    • Staff Surge of the Mist - the wind up animation kills the purpose of the skill for me as it is no longer a reliable source of CC, I'm fine with the 0 damage

    Legend Skills:

    • Shiro Riposting Shadows - the 40 energy cost for a stunbreak with an evade makes it very unrewarding. And since the Revenant can't choose its utility-set, then playing Shiro forces you to use that skill leaving you with 10 energy. 10 energy is less than the most expensive Weapon Skill. So, using Riposting Shadows after Legend Swap leaves you more vulnerable than using any other Stunbreak in Revenant's kit.
    • Shiro Phase Traversal - again, 35 energy cost leaves you with 15 energy and while the skill itself is pretty strong it leaves Revenant being only able t spam autoattacks with Quickness until it regens some Energy back.
    • Mallyx Banish Enchantment - 30 Energy cost is still a lot. Make it strip 2 boons and use 20 energy instead.
    • Ventari - lacks any stunbreak

    Traits:

    • Devastation Battle Scars - it's a nice concept that is poorly implemented. It promotes spammy and boring playstyle which leads you to keep autoattacking. Is it fun? Not really.
    • Herald
    • Renagade

    So, overall I think that Revenant is in a pretty good spot, but it got nerfed more than it needed. I really like how Mallyx regained its' personality with the recent updates. Jalis is also a very good example of a good change. It went from being very clunky, to feeling impactful and meaningful in the Team-comp. All Ventari needs is a Stunbreak because IMO his role is very clear - you heal, clear boons and provide Regeneration - all of this on top of cool mechanics; Tablet manipulation, mobile projectile absorption, knockback and Alacrity.
    I hated the fact that for almost 5 years Shiro's been taking up the go-to legend slot on Revenant in PvP. But I don't think it got nerfs it deserved. What I'd suggest the Devs should do is to really looks at what Shiro was in GW1, what's his identity in GW2 and play around it. Every Core Legend starts to feel very individual and that's great. Then what is Shiro about? Damage, mobility, boonstrip, Quickness, teleports? Redefine it, and stick to the design.

    Not every Legend has to do tons of damage, heals, CC and cleanses. They should compliment, not work against each other.

    Shiro, Hammer, Staff and Shortbow feel awful to use and I hope something is going to be done about it.
    Herald and Renegade along Ventari became my least used legend as they are uninteresting and don't have any personality. Nothing about them makes these E-Specs interesting in terms of new mechanics or a playstyle. Herald's Traitline is mostly a huge output of passives and boons which doesn't change my gameplay. I don't use the Shield because I don't need it in any situation. Only when I feel like I'm bored of Core Off-hands. I don't mean rework the entire E-Spec, but I feel like there is nothing fun about it. Let's compare Glint to Core Legends. Condition manipulation with pull, teleportations, creating stone roads and taunting foes, summoning Ventari's tablet against what - a shining circle and a knockback?

    Renegade is bad against anything that isn't a huge stationary target. 3 out of 5 Shortbow skills are in a pretty bad spot. Kalla does the Boon job better than Herald and the Utility Skills are simply boring. This E-Specs is boring and lacks depth, bugs aside.

    Lastly,the Energy System.
    Stop trying to hop around the energy system, stick to it. We have weapons skills that use energy and have low or high CDs. Overloaded utility skills that are spammable and leave Revenant without any energy. And we have F skill that also use energy and CDs. This system is nuts and it deosn't serve it's purpose.
    Thief's F have CD and don't use Initiatie, Utility Skills have CD and don't use Initiative. Weapon skills use Initiative and are spammable - simple. Take that as an example

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 16, 2020

    Condi Rev builds are what emerged from the nerf meteor.
    They are ugly, disgusting abominations that aren't even good at applying Condi, more like regurgitating Condi back at people while sustaining really hard.

    Power Rev was put into the grave and had concrete poured in for good measure.
    If Shiro nerf wasn't bad enough, Power damage got nerfed across the board.

    Staff essentially became a pure utility set because SotM no longer does damage, and Staff autos and Staff 2 were never good for power pressure.
    Sword also got affected by Power nerf, and the only good thing that arisen from it was Sword 2 rework.
    OH Sword now has the same cooldowns as any other Profession weapon, except that it still has an energy cost and the damage was significantly neutered.

    Devastation is.... at death's door.
    It's still functional, but there are quite a few problems.

    • Aggressive Agility is a good trait, but with the cooldowns and nerfed utilities, its proc rate is extremely low, no point in picking.
    • Battle Scars is good in PvE, huge joke in competitive. Basically an old Minor turned into stack based but need traits to even exist. Bad. Just bad.
      Only good thing about Devastation now is that Brutality is extremely strong.
      Anyone with Stability is gonna lose it extremely quickly and can then be ping ponged by yur team.
      Very fun to use SotM still with Brutality and just strip an entire blob's Stability.

    Retribution has its problems, but arguebly better than Devastation.

    Invocation is now "optional" due to removal of Empty Vessel.
    Song of the Mists is viable btw, if yu wanna swap to Jalis in the middle of a group and gain 3k worth of Barrier for big memes.
    Everyone is gonna use Charged Mists though, but since most people dropped Shiro, no one is gonna use Charged Mists anyway.

    Salvation : HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Mallyx and Corruption : good for Power builds too. I recommend using it to get unexpected amount of sustain and extreme Condi immunity.

    If yur still playing Power Rev like me, keep up the good fight.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ventusthunder.5067 yes, Essence Sap is what makes me hate fighting Thieves. I am glad that not as many run Improv now (the horrors of getting a quad Essence Sap from acro S/D) but IMO it still does too much damage for it being a ranged skill that does not require you to face the target.

    Also I like having Aggressive Agility simply to get away from Ancient Seeds cancer, but looking at it, it is a pretty lackluster trait otherwise. I don't think sword 3 even procs the break, at least on the tooltip when I first checked.

  • @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:
    @ventusthunder.5067 yes, Essence Sap is what makes me hate fighting Thieves. I am glad that not as many run Improv now (the horrors of getting a quad Essence Sap from acro S/D) but IMO it still does too much damage for it being a ranged skill that does not require you to face the target.

    Also I like having Aggressive Agility simply to get away from Ancient Seeds cancer, but looking at it, it is a pretty lackluster trait otherwise. I don't think sword 3 even procs the break, at least on the tooltip when I first checked.

    I almost forgot how much ancient seeds makes me rage when my Surge no longer does enough damage to kill the binding roots, lmao. I've actually been forced to take the trait just based on how much immob is floating around. Sure, they may have nerfed CC damage, but right now it's running rampant based on having horribly nerfed stunbreaks.

    good lord i am absolute trash at this video game

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I feel like the double penalties for skill use are getting worse and worse with each patch.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    These are all wonderful suggestions, im glad to see this is not something that is a "me" thing. I was concerned I was doing something wrong because I just started having a crazy amount of issues with my rev as of late. (I don't want to jump into the condi-band wagon because I know whats coming.)

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    Well rev is still strong. But it is bad. Before, rev was a jack of all trades and it was fluent. But now it feels slow and clunky. It is still good, true, but it is really boring compared to what it should have been.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I dunno from playing a Rev but I came across a Revenant player in WvW today and he was very difficult to take down even with allies.

    Granted im not a big PvP or WvW player but I get my fair share of kills and earn my fair share of salt from those I do kill so I can't be totally incompetent there.
    But this Rev I fought today had to be the toughest person i've fought in WvW to date, dude was really strong and pushing out so much torment damage I could barely handle it.

    I hold no shame in admitting that in a 1v1 scenario I wouldn't stand a chance against his build and nothing I could do prior to completely changing my build and playstyle would change this.
    Certainly made me put Revs on the Red Alert status haha now every time I see one i'm going to assume they're going to give me far more trouble than I would have expected a few days ago.

    Kudos to that Revenant player whoever he is, I enjoyed our multiple skirmishes ^^

  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ventusthunder.5067 said:

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:
    @ventusthunder.5067 yes, Essence Sap is what makes me hate fighting Thieves. I am glad that not as many run Improv now (the horrors of getting a quad Essence Sap from acro S/D) but IMO it still does too much damage for it being a ranged skill that does not require you to face the target.

    Also I like having Aggressive Agility simply to get away from Ancient Seeds cancer, but looking at it, it is a pretty lackluster trait otherwise. I don't think sword 3 even procs the break, at least on the tooltip when I first checked.

    I almost forgot how much ancient seeds makes me rage when my Surge no longer does enough damage to kill the binding roots, lmao. I've actually been forced to take the trait just based on how much immob is floating around. Sure, they may have nerfed CC damage, but right now it's running rampant based on having horribly nerfed stunbreaks.

    The only thing that aggressive agility has going for it is that the other two traits in the tier are equally ignorable. A 10% modifier for roughly 20% of a fight (so roughly 2% on average and worse if you count down cleave) or roughly 250 damage and 250 healing on two thirty second cooldowns from the tremendously under tuned battle scars, all three of them are either niche or ignorable.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2020

    Used to roam on power herald (since I wouldn't need to swap classes for squad unless missing firebrands) and now I just roam on daredevil (swap to staff or other class for squad).

    It feels really poor when you have 1 stunbreak ; power herald doesn't have the burst on staff at all so you're down to sword + hammer.
    Staff : both damage and healing gutted, staff 5 has really clunky windup
    Sword: not enough pressure without shiro's Impossible Odds
    Hammer: only used for ranged pressure , CoR aiming still wonky since October 2019 , CoR cooldown increased , Drop the Hammer does near zero damage despite the huge tell

    Traits-wise , assassin's annihilation changing to battle scars also hurt sustain.

    The reason people run the condi cancer builds is because mallyx has the pull + leap, without it mace+axe gets kited

  • @zaswer.5246 said:
    If it were me i would mix the 2 movility skills from shiro into one like the old ranger sword skill(evasion backwards and leap as second cast) , and in the slot left i would get a dmg skill ( something like a guardian sumoned sword , like a jade projectile or similar).

    Mixing the 2 mobility skills would be incredibly bad. You would lose a ton of the functionality of each by splitting them. The teleport needs to stay separate so it can be used to hunt down targets without any sort of prior requirement. Shiro's Impossible Odds is already a strong enough damage skill on its own; power rev doesn't need another energy intensive skill outside of that on Shiro's skillset

    Also this one might be unpopular but what if we changed assasins precence to invocation and named it legendary presence? I mean i know AP is not a bad trait but this way we could be a little more greedy in devastation

    Notoriety is the selfish option for that tier in Devastation. Devastation doesn't need another selfish options since they'll directly compete with Notoriety.

  • zaswer.5246zaswer.5246 Member ✭✭

    Well Imposible odds is deffinitely not enought dmg increase as it is right now , at least for pve power revenant , and also sword 5 is already a tp so you dont realy need both .
    Also you dont necesarily need to change AP for another dmg modificator and you could put an utility trait like recovering energy with siphons or giving boons to movement skills .

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Condition: overall great; short bow is still mediocre for PvP/WvW, but can be used
    Physical: garbage; not only is worse than condi at every place in the game but also loss the distinctive flow that has since the release.

    Legends:

    • Mallyx: strong, amongs the best and more usefull.
    • Herald: good, despite the nerfs still provides value at decent cost of oportunity.
    • Jalis: decent, has good synergies with condi builds, but if used in physical damage based ones the dps is really low.
    • Shiro: garbage, skill x skill very low value in relation to the energy cost but more important no longer plays/works as before; 0 reasons to use it in the future.
    • Ventari: useless; never liked the lore or the mechanics of this legend so I never use it; doesn't exist to me.
    • Kalla: useless; never liked the lore and I hate the mechanics of this legend so even when is buffed I don't enjoy this one and keep returning to M/H/J after using Kalla a few days.

      Weapons:

    • Mace: slow but good, easy to interrupt but can put a lot of pressure and stacks damage well.

    • Axe: decent, other classes have better off hand weapons but is still usable.
    • Shield: decent, used to be bad, but the current meta is so tanky and the other weapons so bad that currently works at everything except zerg vs zerg WvW.
    • Shot bow: decent, can be used at every game mode albeit half of the skills are garbage (the state of bows in the game outside Ranger's LB is pitiful).
    • Swords: mediocre, they can't compete against condi in PvE neither beat tanks in PvP/WvW, so no reason to use them.
    • Staff: bad, I wouldn't even use this one for bar breaking in PvE; has a huge "DPS LEAK" neon banner floating around every time you touch one.
    • Hammer: LOL, was only used at long range WvW warfare and now svcks at that, so there's no longer reason for this weapon to exist, much less to use one.

      Overall feel: good, finally condi bunker Rev can stand against all kind of Guardian, Mesmer or Necro builds in Conquest, do it well in WvW and seamlessly level PvE content without even touching the build. Power Rev is garbage, but 2019 was essentially a one year long farewell to that build. For both PvE and competitive game modes if I want to play power there's at least 3 specs of Guardian/DH/FB builds I would run instead of power Rev, which is a bit sad due the time I spent crafting the legendaries (now on track to make Astralaria and Eureka), but what could be said? Main designed of Rev/Herald leaved the ship long ago and the heirs had a long running dismantling the build and how it worked (instead of just squaring the numbers). I don't even think about touching Shiro or the power weapons again. Is all condi Rev for me; If I want hybrid or condi I just play Guardian...

  • @zaswer.5246 said:
    Well Imposible odds is deffinitely not enought dmg increase as it is right now , at least for pve power revenant , and also sword 5 is already a tp so you dont realy need both .
    Also you dont necesarily need to change AP for another dmg modificator and you could put an utility trait like recovering energy with siphons or giving boons to movement skills .

    The extra "utility" choice in that category is "Thrill of Combat." And Impossible Odds is definitely enough of a damage increase for PvE power rev; it carries a lot of its damage. And sure, sword 5 is a TP, but it's a SHORT TP and has a MASSIVE cooldown, unlike Phase Traversal (And Phase Traversal has a range of 1200 + Quickness + Unblockable which is infinitely better). NOT the same at all or as useful.

    Also, 34k DPS POWER REN for PVE now; Power Rev is definitely not struggling to be viable anymore for PvE and doesn't really need much except for maybe a slightly more relevant Elite Spec. up to 65k burst and finishing the opening 20% at 45k. Really solid

  • zaswer.5246zaswer.5246 Member ✭✭

    Ill agree with you with that video benchmark.
    Even so you should take in count that most people will only look at arkdps and not the game dps.(Theres no profound meaning just saing the game and arcdps dontvusually get same numbers)

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The benchmark is great, for PvE min-maxing. But it is suffering in WvW and PvP. Im talking in a general feel a crossed the game, and as I don't raid and don't really care for that content mode Its kinda one of those things thats "cool it can raid! Im happy for them."

  • @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    The benchmark is great, for PvE min-maxing. But it is suffering in WvW and PvP. Im talking in a general feel a crossed the game, and as I don't raid and don't really care for that content mode Its kinda one of those things thats "cool it can raid! Im happy for them."

    My responses were solely directed at Zaswer's opinion's, not directed at your initial post or further statements, so take that as you will. Not meant to be my general feelings on the class as a whole or how it's performing in WvW/PvP

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    The benchmark is great, for PvE min-maxing. But it is suffering in WvW and PvP. Im talking in a general feel a crossed the game, and as I don't raid and don't really care for that content mode Its kinda one of those things thats "cool it can raid! Im happy for them."

    My responses were solely directed at Zaswer's opinion's, not directed at your initial post or further statements, so take that as you will. Not meant to be my general feelings on the class as a whole or how it's performing in WvW/PvP

    Oh alright, my bad mate. I wasn't sure I know raiders come in a circle jerk numbers on test golems but I just feel like sometimes its not the best way to indicate how a class is currently, its easy to rack up damage on a standing target. Another to put it into action on a player, or even a moving target with differing parameters. I meant nothing by it ~

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2020

    [PVP Perspective]

    Condition Mallys is meta, so in that regard Rev is in a good spot.

    Power Rev kind of isn't. A big problem is they nerfed power rev in the wrong way. They really should have focused on reducing quickness, since cheesing animations out for massive burst damage was a big part of what made it "unfun" for other classes to fight against. Technically, that part of power Rev still exists. You can still play Shiro/Glint and still go Brutality+Song and have shitloads of quickness uptime, and you can still do some pretty good bursts because of it. The issue with power Rev is they nerfed everything else. Sustain on Devestation is basically deleted from PvP, RS nerfed to the ground, Staff 5 nerfed to the ground, base damage significantly gutted, condi clear is actually worse now, it just feels really clunky to play. Like you now HAVE to play it as a quickness oneshot cheese or else the ol' Shiro/Glint build flat out doesn't work. You can still play it, it's just not meta.

    There is Shiro/Jalis Renegod. It's not awful and the build I use for it does work. (http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAweZldQMMHyj1QdsHij9RksAigl+067G-zZIPlMFC9KCyXB0xEwDDA . Rune of divinity is also viable. ) But even that is significantly harder to play and do well with than Condi mallyx builds. The staff 5 and RS nerfs probably hurt the hardest. The worst of it really is staff 5. It just feels ridiculously clunky to use and the amount of player skill needed to land it is unironically a thousand times higher than most other CCs in the game. To interrupt a key skill you have to outplay people to the point where you need to both correctly predict where they will be and what skill they will be using a full 3 seconds into the future. No other ability in the game comes anywhere close to being this manic.

    [PVE Perspective]

    PVE actually feels better off. The new sword 2 is a lot less buggy for DPS rotations, and battle scars PvE sustain split makes for a lot of really good solo builds.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    so I took rev out into pvp with the purpose of testing power myself and honestly without empty vessel its trash, the whole thing becomes a ping-pong match and once you try to use a cc-break you're right back to being cc'd. Its completely nonviable and at this point id rather them remove all our power options and force us to go full condi, because it seems to me thats exactly what they are trying to do. This whole change, down from the fact that they gutted one of the core playstyles to the fact that they willingly overlooked rune of tormenting and condition power acrossed the board tells me they want a condi-centric game.

    I can't believe how un-fun it is to play shiro now, on any level and in any mode he is just not fun to play right now outside of PvE. (But really who cares, we knew PvE rev would be fine, its not like any major changes outside of out-right removal of trait lines would kill them there.) This has got to be the biggest and most annoying change for me, because they KNEW that this would end badly and they did it anyway. THEY KNEW full well that shiro would feel like kitten, would play like kitten and would be inferior and they did this inspite of that because of the lacking of peoples understand or willful ignorance on how to counter it.

    Im not even sure its shiro himself but the impact the rest of the changes on the class have been, mallyx/glint is insanely strong right now but you see I know for a fact it will get nerfed into the ground so I don't want to invest in it. I know full well it will be gutted and I know they won't compensate us, they wont fix power as hammer has been sitting there broken for months. The amount of anger as a rev main I feel is immeasurable, its legit "Might as well re-roll" because once mallyx is murdered we won't have a viable way to play outside of MAYBE a bunker tank in jalis/kalla with being a prot bot and alacrity slave. So now we don't have our duelist nature like we did in HoT launch after we got nerfed, we don't have many good weapons as all of them kind of suck outside of mace/axe and sword/shield and thats in combination with one another.

    Hammer? Could remove it from the class and wouldn't make a difference.
    Shortbow? Same as hammer.
    Staff? Same as above now.

    It just seems so short-sighted in my eyes that they would put us in this situation, and not at least consider that we are aware at how they function. They wont fix the bunker meta until the season is over; That is just how its going to be. Condi's will be insane until then as will any other broken interactions; And to me that is indicative of them willfully doing this for the sake of doing it.

    Any new rev's who read this, go condi for the foreseeable future. Because power is dead.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 22, 2020

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    Any new rev's who read this, go condi for the foreseeable future. Because power is dead.

    Agreed, Condi is gonna keep the status quo for a loooong time if Anerf doesn't address it soon, and they probably won't.

    The only thing Power has going for it right now is PvE which is unarguably strong because alot of aspects of PvE Revenant are left entirely intact and unmolested by PvP/WvW nerfs.

    Power isn't exactly "dead" in competitive modes but yu should really listen to all the Revenant threads : It's not worth it, it's too difficult, and yu need extreme knowledge of yur matchups to pull it off.

    I'm still playing it, and I still have some success with it, but it is being carried entirely through gimmicks and trait combinations which are in a volatile state and could change anytime and invalidate my build's existence.

    I freaking hate it but I will keep playing Power Rev as a middle finger to Anerf's balance team until they wrench Swords away from me and bury it.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    so I took rev out into pvp with the purpose of testing power myself and honestly without empty vessel its trash, the whole thing becomes a ping-pong match and once you try to use a cc-break you're right back to being cc'd.

    Glaring Resolve is pretty much essential, but the problem with that is that it's competing with Cleansing Channel and power rev needs all the condi cleanse it can get. Makes me wonder if part of the reason why condi revs are doing well is because they can have condition management and Glaring Resolve.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    I can't believe how un-fun it is to play shiro now, on any level and in any mode he is just not fun to play right now outside of PvE. (But really who cares, we knew PvE rev would be fine, its not like any major changes outside of out-right removal of trait lines would kill them there).

    Honestly I don't think that power Rev is that much hotter in PvE either (at least in open world content). If you try to do something like the Dragon Stand meta event with power you will get a lot less revenue than doing it with a shortbow Renegade: if you run the typical mele power Shiro you'll find that a lot of enemies will melt due ranged attacks from your fellows before you can even touch them, and if you run the hammer the ultra slow cast of the AoE skills can't compete with the shortbow + citadel bombardment. But something similar happens to the Firebrands: Dragon Hunter with lowbow and traps is better than FB with scepter + tomes at farming large mob groups.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Buran.3796 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    I can't believe how un-fun it is to play shiro now, on any level and in any mode he is just not fun to play right now outside of PvE. (But really who cares, we knew PvE rev would be fine, its not like any major changes outside of out-right removal of trait lines would kill them there).

    Honestly I don't think that power Rev is that much hotter in PvE either (at least in open world content). If you try to do something like the Dragon Stand meta event with power you will get a lot less revenue than doing it with a shortbow Renegade: if you run the typical mele power Shiro you'll find that a lot of enemies will melt due ranged attacks from your fellows before you can even touch them, and if you run the hammer the ultra slow cast of the AoE skills can't compete with the shortbow + citadel bombardment. But something similar happens to the Firebrands: Dragon Hunter with lowbow and traps is better than FB with scepter + tomes at farming large mob groups.

    Then I have no Idea what its good at outside of being an Alacrity bot.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    Do you think they'll nerf Battle Scars in PvE ?

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Buran.3796 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    I can't believe how un-fun it is to play shiro now, on any level and in any mode he is just not fun to play right now outside of PvE. (But really who cares, we knew PvE rev would be fine, its not like any major changes outside of out-right removal of trait lines would kill them there).

    Honestly I don't think that power Rev is that much hotter in PvE either (at least in open world content). If you try to do something like the Dragon Stand meta event with power you will get a lot less revenue than doing it with a shortbow Renegade: if you run the typical mele power Shiro you'll find that a lot of enemies will melt due ranged attacks from your fellows before you can even touch them, and if you run the hammer the ultra slow cast of the AoE skills can't compete with the shortbow + citadel bombardment. But something similar happens to the Firebrands: Dragon Hunter with lowbow and traps is better than FB with scepter + tomes at farming large mob groups.

    You're assuming that shortbow renegade can't be power. Shortbow taken as a whole is really more hybrid than condi, and it has both means of quickly building up Battle Scars stacks (skill 5, spirits) and consuming them (skills 2 and 3).

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2020

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    You're assuming that shortbow renegade can't be power. Shortbow taken as a whole is really more hybrid than condi, and it has both means of quickly building up Battle Scars stacks (skill 5, spirits) and consuming them (skills 2 and 3).

    And they can still self stack 25 might as well as give Alacrity uptime.
    Renegade DPS would be way stronger as a DPS especially with how they can stack insane amounts of Vuln with Icerazor, which translate to many stacks of Battle Scars through Dance of Death, which are conveniently consumed at the same time, giving crazy burst sustain and damage at the same time.

    And this is not counting the party DPS increase through Soulcleave's

    Alacri-gade has always been used hand in hand with Firebrand to form the Firebr-igade, and the new update actually made their personal DPS higher.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Do you think they'll nerf Battle Scars in PvE ?

    more than likely.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Do you think they'll nerf Battle Scars in PvE ?

    more than likely.

    I thought so... I assume it'll be something like from 298 (0.1) to 99 (0.01)

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Do you think they'll nerf Battle Scars in PvE ?

    more than likely.

    I thought so... I assume it'll be something like from 298 (0.1) to 99 (0.01)

    Probably, might even be less. Its becoming clear to me that A-net really doesn't like us lol

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2020

    @Julius Seizure.4985 said:
    Revenants were designed to receive reduced recharge or additional effects on skills as compensation for dual gating — having both recharge and energy to manage. Compare Counterattack and Warding Rift to see just how little this applies now.

    Comparing competitive numbers:

    • Primary effect— COUNTERATTACK= 3 seconds block / 25 seconds (20 when traited) recharge vs. WARDING RIFT= 2 seconds block / 20 seconds recharge + 10 energy

    • Secondary effect—COUNTERATTACK= 3/4 second evade + CC vs. WARDING RIFT= melee range Blind in a narrow forward facing cone

    For paying both energy and recharge, Revenants get less total block / second base, and drastically less block / second when traited. The fact that there is a rollover 3/4 second evade + CC competing with a melee range blind in a forward facing cone is the icing on the cake. Revenant weapon skills have been gutted, while other classes have received bloat and simply deal with recharge to manage. Revenant also receives no recharge bonuses anywhere, which is a significant penalty compared to other classes.

    Original design was for the class not to have CDs at all, but I see where you’re going with your point and completely agree with it. Besides that, some skills needed a CD attached to prevent spamming. However, not the CDs we have now. Anyways, have a thumbs up from me.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Julius Seizure.4985 said:
    Revenants were designed to receive reduced recharge or additional effects on skills as compensation for dual gating — having both recharge and energy to manage. Compare Counterattack and Warding Rift to see just how little this applies now.

    Comparing competitive numbers:

    • Primary effect— COUNTERATTACK= 3 seconds block / 25 seconds (20 when traited) recharge vs. WARDING RIFT= 2 seconds block / 20 seconds recharge + 10 energy

    • Secondary effect—COUNTERATTACK= 3/4 second evade + CC vs. WARDING RIFT= melee range Blind in a narrow forward facing cone

    For paying both energy and recharge, Revenants get less total block / second base, and drastically less block / second when traited. The fact that there is a rollover 3/4 second evade + CC competing with a melee range blind in a forward facing cone is the icing on the cake. Revenant weapon skills have been gutted, while other classes have received bloat and simply deal with recharge to manage. Revenant also receives no recharge bonuses anywhere, which is a significant penalty compared to other classes.

    Original design was for the class not to have CDs at all, but I see where you’re going with your point and completely agree with it. Besides that, some skills needed a CD attached to prevent spamming. However, not the CDs we have now. Anyways, have a thumbs up from me.

    The skill were only meant to have short CD to avoid spamming.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    914 hours on Revenant, and I figure about 750hrs of them spent as Hammer Herald in WvW; since the patch, my Rev has been exclusively PvE as Alacrigade for T4 fractals.

    In WvW I'm playing Burn DH (until that is nerfed), still play Medi-Scrapper and have started playing Power DPS Scrapper which has been fun and interesting.

    All ANET has to do is remove the wind up on Staff 5 (which sucks equally in PvE btw - missed CC'ing a Caff Skritt the other day) and return the 4sec cooldown to CoR but with lower damage, and I would happily go back to Hammer Rev, and judging by the fact I might see 1-2 Hammer Revs in an enemy zerg, I'm not alone in this.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Julius Seizure.4985 said:
    I think the important take away is that Revenant no longer appears to receive much benefit from having both energy costs and recharge on many skills. After years of nerfs, all of our skills are largely balanced with other classes in regards to effects / recharge (and often worse), but yet we still pay energy.

    On top of this, we don’t get access to -20% recharge traits anywhere, and this causes some massive disparity like in the example I gave above.

    After the most recent patch, the problems this causes have become more glaring. The Revenant is now massively penalized for breaking stuns, which is due to the removal of Empty Vessel and Shiro’s energy increase. Every time you break a stun, assuming you even have enough energy to do such, you often remove the ability to use the majority of your weapon skills for a counter attack. I find myself forced into eating many CCs for full duration because the cost of breaking a stun is simple math: 2 seconds of CC versus 8 seconds of energy.

    We are now the only class in the game where each and every CC is guaranteed to remove counter pressure regardless of Stunbreak usage, with the one exception being Condi Malyx. This is the main reason you see this spec being used, IMO.

    Im pretty sure this was intended, A-net since the introduction of revenant has tried to homogenize us and kind of remove us from play. Sure we can do raids now (Not that I care or bother.) but we have lost so much of ourselves in the process, they could remove us tomorrow and it wouldn't make a difference which I believe is the point they likely regret the introduction of this class. (Despite it being what brought me, and many others back to the fold.)

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You know what the sad thing is? Revenant should be the easiest to balance since all utilities are locked. There's no theory crafting extremely broken builds , unless something is outright buggy or carried by stats (trailblazer).

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    You know what the sad thing is? Revenant should be the easiest to balance since all utilities are locked. There's no theory crafting extremely broken builds , unless something is outright buggy or carried by stats (trailblazer).

    It should be, you're correct. But a-net seems set on homogenization right now; Note every major class change has brought the three weights and their respective classes closer together, mediums have much of the same tools and playstyles. The heavies are being given the same treatment, this effects rev significantly worse due to their limited skills and abilities. Homogenization is what makes games un-fun~

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2020

    After playing several ATs and a bunch of conquest I think Power Rev is in a good spot. Most of the top revenant players I've been seeing are still playing Power Herald, NOT Condi Herald and overall still seeing mostly power builds and power comps. There are some timing and energy changes to adjust to since the patch, but overall I've been feeling successful with Power Herald as well as Condi Herald. They're just very different builds for very different uses and I don't think the disparity between them (in the overarching meta) is as great as some of this thread makes it out to be.

  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2020

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    After playing several ATs and a bunch of conquest I think Power Rev is in a good spot. Most of the top revenant players I've been seeing are still playing Power Herald, NOT Condi Herald and overall still seeing mostly power builds and power comps. There are some timing and energy changes to adjust to since the patch, but overall I've been feeling successful with Power Herald as well as Condi Herald. They're just very different builds for very different uses and I don't think the disparity between them (in the overarching meta) is as great as some of this thread makes it out to be.

    Or the power heralds are the people like me who only play power for the free games against teams far below my team's skill level because it is the funner build for me. Then when we face an actually tough game I swap right over to condi because it is simply superior for winning games.

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    Such a potential and such a majestic failure. For me condi is boring and unskillful (personal opinion). Some power builds were really fun but they got screwed hard. I was one of the few people that used ventari while roaming but after the patch it also got a heavy nerf (and it needed a real buff/rework).

    Rev is like a quirky warrior now. If I wanted to play a profession like warrior, I would play warrior.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    You're assuming that shortbow renegade can't be power. Shortbow taken as a whole is really more hybrid than condi, and it has both means of quickly building up Battle Scars stacks (skill 5, spirits) and consuming them (skills 2 and 3).

    Correct, but that's a Renegade build. You can play it condi, hybrid or power, but despite your stats of choice Is very different from the power Herald or power core builds which were useful in the past. At open world, non-Renegade power builds are now subpar because mele<ranged when there's a ton of players farming the content and hammer=bad at the current time. My point was only to remark that even in PvE power Rev is not that hot anymore, outside instanced content. But for solo condi Rev is the GOAT.

  • @ArthurDent.9538 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    After playing several ATs and a bunch of conquest I think Power Rev is in a good spot. Most of the top revenant players I've been seeing are still playing Power Herald, NOT Condi Herald and overall still seeing mostly power builds and power comps. There are some timing and energy changes to adjust to since the patch, but overall I've been feeling successful with Power Herald as well as Condi Herald. They're just very different builds for very different uses and I don't think the disparity between them (in the overarching meta) is as great as some of this thread makes it out to be.

    Or the power heralds are the people like me who only play power for the free games against teams far below my team's skill level because it is the funner build for me. Then when we face an actually tough game I swap right over to condi because it is simply superior for winning games.

    Well the monthly AT is on Saturday we’ll see what the top teams are running then. Both are good right now it really just depends on what you need for your team and what the opponent is running