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Soulbeast Damage Adjustments

Hi Everyone,

Outside of various bugfixes, the main balance tweaks we have in today’s build are some adjustments to Soulbeast damage, most notably the single-hit potential of both Maul and Worldly Impact, but also reducing Soulbeast damage output in general. We’ve seen a lot of discussion on the topic and a lot of discussion on what adjustments make sense to bring the damage down, so we wanted to provide some details around what we did and why.

There were a handful of things that were considered:

  • Marksmanship traits (Moment of Clarity+Remorseless)
  • Sic’Em
  • Beastmastery attribute bonuses while merged
  • Merged attribute bonuses from ferocious pets
  • Power coefficients of Maul and Worldly Impact

Marksmanship adjustments were dismissed pretty early due to the impact they would have on other ranger builds, notably core ranger builds that rely more heavily on marksmanship due to the absence of Sic’Em, other multipliers from the soulbeast traitline, and the stat bonuses from merging. In addition, we’re currently less concerned with the build of soulbeast, beastmastery, marksmanship. This is the glassiest iteration of soulbeast and while it hits the largest numbers, it's also extremely vulnerable to enemy pressure. We’ll definitely be keeping an eye on the build moving forward as it will still be able to have massive single hits under ideal conditions, but in general we expect it to be held in check by more balanced builds in the meta.

Moving on, we essentially had two choices. Shaving coefficients of Maul and Worldly impact was definitely warranted, so the remaining question was whether we hit Sic’Em or the soulbeast merge bonuses to make up the remaining damage reduction. We went with the attribute adjustments due to how free they are, or rather the lack of opportunity cost. Beastmastery is full of valuable traits and is a strong choice even in the absence of the soulbeast specialization, so the bonus attributes while merged are just bonus value on top. Similarly, many of the ferocious pets like gazelle and smokescale are already competitive options before considering the extra 200 power and 100 ferocity while merged. Sic’Em, while a powerful utility skill (and probably still a bit overtuned relative to where we want offensive utilities to be), does require a slot on the skill bar, and we’d rather see players continue to slot Sic’Em to maximize damage than simply replace it with something else had we nerfed it and left the merge buffs alone. For some frame of reference, the combination of changes we made is a slightly heavier nerf than if we reduced the Sic’Em multiplier from 25% to 15%, plus the shaves to power coefficients on top of that.

These changes may be a bit light overall, but as we talked about previously our plan is to make smaller, more controlled adjustments more often and re-evaluate as needed with the goal of improving balance in the long run.

That's all for today's update. There's definitely more to discuss balance-wise than just soulbeast, and we'll have more to talk about in a future post.

-The Systems Team

Here are the relevant soulbeast changes for anyone who doesn't want to cross-check with the update notes, but definitely go check out the notes for the full list of bugfixes.

  • Pack Alpha: Reduced stats granted to merged soulbeasts from 150 to 75 in PvP and WvW.
  • Pet's Prowess: Reduced ferocity granted to merged soulbeasts from 300 to 150 in PvP and WvW.
  • Ferocious (Soulbeast Pet Archetype Effect): Reduced power granted from 200 to 100 in PvP and WvW.
  • Maul: Reduced power coefficient from 1.5 to 1.36 in PvP and WvW.
  • Worldly Impact: Reduced power coefficient from 1.512 to 1.36 in PvP and WvW.

aka cmc
Game Designer on PvP/WvW

Tagged:
<13

Comments

  • Glad to see them focus on PVP and WVW this time instead of nerfing PVE along with it.

  • mrauls.6519mrauls.6519 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Obsidian Flesh is bugged. Please fix it ASAP.

    If you cancel it, it doesn't go on the full cooldown.

    https://clips.twitch.tv/SmallFaintEaglePogChamp

    Credit to Helio

    Jesus Christ. Fix ASAP!

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Obsidian Flesh is bugged. Please fix it ASAP.

    If you cancel it, it doesn't go on the full cooldown.

    https://clips.twitch.tv/SmallFaintEaglePogChamp

    Credit to Helio

    This is the most gamebreaking skill bug we've seen yet. =)

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    pls remove might from fresh reinforcement boon table and soulbeast will be good to go.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • aymnad.9023aymnad.9023 Member ✭✭✭

    The stat nerfs affects slightly all the slb builds but I am really happy to see that you still want us to be able to play the sicem version :)

  • Crozame.4098Crozame.4098 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2020

    core ranger is also broken. btw. And about war, 4k GS F1 with full zerker. Now its even more unplayable in 2v2. Emphasis here, 2v2. Can we adjust based on game modes?

  • Cronos.6532Cronos.6532 Member ✭✭✭

    Thanks; Worldly Impact was ridiculous.

    signature

  • witcher.3197witcher.3197 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2020

    My only gripe is that you're only considering zerker soulbeast with longbow/gs and not the other power options. Granted the Sic 'em build is by far the best right now, but this change just buries the less bursty ranger builds even further.

    Could you please consider giving axe mainhand some of its damage back? Right now axe is super underwhelming and barely does damage even with a zerker amulet. Landing all 5 projectiles of axe 2 on a single target does less damage than just throwing an autoattack at them. Axe 3 barely does double of what the autoattack is capable of.

  • @Moira Shalaar.5620 said:
    So, since commanders in WvW already hate rangers and routinely kick us, rangers were left to be the premier roamers, in part because of our DPS. @Cal Cohen, Tell me then, now that you have double nerfed Rangers, first with the tuning down that everybody received and now this, what role in WvW do you envision for Rangers? Surely you haven't adopted the meta opinion that Rangers have no place in WvW, and yet by listening to all the opposition to Rangers on the forums you are stripping away the last role in which playing ranger shined.

    You don't need to be inside of a squad to follow a tag you know?

  • Cyric.7813Cyric.7813 Member ✭✭✭

    jes how annoying..

  • Cyric.7813Cyric.7813 Member ✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    pls remove might from fresh reinforcement boon table and soulbeast will be good to go.

    nobody use this..

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2020

    @Cyric.7813 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    pls remove might from fresh reinforcement boon table and soulbeast will be good to go.

    nobody use this..

    only memers, but that's ok lets allow meme builds to ruin the game until game death.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Andy.5981Andy.5981 Member ✭✭✭

    @Moira Shalaar.5620 said:
    So, since commanders in WvW already hate rangers and routinely kick us, rangers were left to be the premier roamers, in part because of our DPS. @Cal Cohen, Tell me then, now that you have double nerfed Rangers, first with the tuning down that everybody received and now this, what role in WvW do you envision for Rangers? Surely you haven't adopted the meta opinion that Rangers have no place in WvW, and yet by listening to all the opposition to Rangers on the forums you are stripping away the last role in which playing ranger shined.

    You wont get an answer from them. They've been asked this time and time again.

  • cobbah.3102cobbah.3102 Member ✭✭✭

    @Moira Shalaar.5620 said:
    So, since commanders in WvW already hate rangers and routinely kick us, rangers were left to be the premier roamers, in part because of our DPS. @Cal Cohen, Tell me then, now that you have double nerfed Rangers, first with the tuning down that everybody received and now this, what role in WvW do you envision for Rangers? Surely you haven't adopted the meta opinion that Rangers have no place in WvW, and yet by listening to all the opposition to Rangers on the forums you are stripping away the last role in which playing ranger shined.

    There is always PVE enjoy the game.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Substance E.4852 said:
    So when the kitten are you gonna touch condi thieves plaguing WvW?

    Or are we just catering to people who still cry about losing to a ranger?

    I haven't even seen one in wvw since the condi thief nerf half yr ago or so, they still around? Do u mean condi DE?

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @witcher.3197 said:
    My only gripe is that you're only considering zerker soulbeast with longbow/gs and not the other power options. Granted the Sic 'em build is by far the best right now, but this change just buries the less bursty ranger builds even further.

    To be honest, that is an issue on any class. The game is pretty much zerker/marauder and damage modifiers now if you don't want your experience look like fighting 80% bunker builds you can't kill in less than 2 minutes.

  • @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Substance E.4852 said:
    So when the kitten are you gonna touch condi thieves plaguing WvW?

    Or are we just catering to people who still cry about losing to a ranger?

    I haven't even seen one in wvw since the condi thief nerf half yr ago or so, they still around? Do u mean condi DE?

    Can confirm I have seen them

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Hi Everyone,

    Outside of various bugfixes, the main balance tweaks we have in today’s build are some adjustments to Soulbeast damage, most notably the single-hit potential of both Maul and Worldly Impact, but also reducing Soulbeast damage output in general. We’ve seen a lot of discussion on the topic and a lot of discussion on what adjustments make sense to bring the damage down, so we wanted to provide some details around what we did and why.

    There were a handful of things that were considered:

    • Marksmanship traits (Moment of Clarity+Remorseless)
    • Sic’Em
    • Beastmastery attribute bonuses while merged
    • Merged attribute bonuses from ferocious pets
    • Power coefficients of Maul and Worldly Impact

    Marksmanship adjustments were dismissed pretty early due to the impact they would have on other ranger builds, notably core ranger builds that rely more heavily on marksmanship due to the absence of Sic’Em, other multipliers from the soulbeast traitline, and the stat bonuses from merging. In addition, we’re currently less concerned with the build of soulbeast, beastmastery, marksmanship. This is the glassiest iteration of soulbeast and while it hits the largest numbers, it's also extremely vulnerable to enemy pressure. We’ll definitely be keeping an eye on the build moving forward as it will still be able to have massive single hits under ideal conditions, but in general we expect it to be held in check by more balanced builds in the meta.

    Moving on, we essentially had two choices. Shaving coefficients of Maul and Worldly impact was definitely warranted, so the remaining question was whether we hit Sic’Em or the soulbeast merge bonuses to make up the remaining damage reduction. We went with the attribute adjustments due to how free they are, or rather the lack of opportunity cost. Beastmastery is full of valuable traits and is a strong choice even in the absence of the soulbeast specialization, so the bonus attributes while merged are just bonus value on top. Similarly, many of the ferocious pets like gazelle and smokescale are already competitive options before considering the extra 200 power and 100 ferocity while merged. Sic’Em, while a powerful utility skill (and probably still a bit overtuned relative to where we want offensive utilities to be), does require a slot on the skill bar, and we’d rather see players continue to slot Sic’Em to maximize damage than simply replace it with something else had we nerfed it and left the merge buffs alone. For some frame of reference, the combination of changes we made is a slightly heavier nerf than if we reduced the Sic’Em multiplier from 25% to 15%, plus the shaves to power coefficients on top of that.

    These changes may be a bit light overall, but as we talked about previously our plan is to make smaller, more controlled adjustments more often and re-evaluate as needed with the goal of improving balance in the long run.

    That's all for today's update. There's definitely more to discuss balance-wise than just soulbeast, and we'll have more to talk about in a future post.

    -The Systems Team

    Here are the relevant soulbeast changes for anyone who doesn't want to cross-check with the update notes, but definitely go check out the notes for the full list of bugfixes.

    • Pack Alpha: Reduced stats granted to merged soulbeasts from 150 to 75 in PvP and WvW.
    • Pet's Prowess: Reduced ferocity granted to merged soulbeasts from 300 to 150 in PvP and WvW.
    • Ferocious (Soulbeast Pet Archetype Effect): Reduced power granted from 200 to 100 in PvP and WvW.
    • Maul: Reduced power coefficient from 1.5 to 1.36 in PvP and WvW.
    • Worldly Impact: Reduced power coefficient from 1.512 to 1.36 in PvP and WvW.

    I'm really glad the changes are in both competitive modes. It used to be this would be a PvP only change meaning whatever class the changes concerned would continue to run around in small scale WvW being disgusting to play against, which caused me and a lot of my friends to simply stop playing.

    Easy thumbs up, well done.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2020

    I think we are like 1 more patch before zero power builds are sPvP viable... Lets just remove marauder and berserker amulets so people do not make the mistake of playing any power build in sPvP.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Hi Everyone,

    Outside of various bugfixes, the main balance tweaks we have in today’s build are some adjustments to Soulbeast damage, most notably the single-hit potential of both Maul and Worldly Impact, but also reducing Soulbeast damage output in general. We’ve seen a lot of discussion on the topic and a lot of discussion on what adjustments make sense to bring the damage down, so we wanted to provide some details around what we did and why.

    There were a handful of things that were considered:

    • Marksmanship traits (Moment of Clarity+Remorseless)
    • Sic’Em
    • Beastmastery attribute bonuses while merged
    • Merged attribute bonuses from ferocious pets
    • Power coefficients of Maul and Worldly Impact

    Marksmanship adjustments were dismissed pretty early due to the impact they would have on other ranger builds, notably core ranger builds that rely more heavily on marksmanship due to the absence of Sic’Em, other multipliers from the soulbeast traitline, and the stat bonuses from merging. In addition, we’re currently less concerned with the build of soulbeast, beastmastery, marksmanship. This is the glassiest iteration of soulbeast and while it hits the largest numbers, it's also extremely vulnerable to enemy pressure. We’ll definitely be keeping an eye on the build moving forward as it will still be able to have massive single hits under ideal conditions, but in general we expect it to be held in check by more balanced builds in the meta.

    Moving on, we essentially had two choices. Shaving coefficients of Maul and Worldly impact was definitely warranted, so the remaining question was whether we hit Sic’Em or the soulbeast merge bonuses to make up the remaining damage reduction. We went with the attribute adjustments due to how free they are, or rather the lack of opportunity cost. Beastmastery is full of valuable traits and is a strong choice even in the absence of the soulbeast specialization, so the bonus attributes while merged are just bonus value on top. Similarly, many of the ferocious pets like gazelle and smokescale are already competitive options before considering the extra 200 power and 100 ferocity while merged. Sic’Em, while a powerful utility skill (and probably still a bit overtuned relative to where we want offensive utilities to be), does require a slot on the skill bar, and we’d rather see players continue to slot Sic’Em to maximize damage than simply replace it with something else had we nerfed it and left the merge buffs alone. For some frame of reference, the combination of changes we made is a slightly heavier nerf than if we reduced the Sic’Em multiplier from 25% to 15%, plus the shaves to power coefficients on top of that.

    These changes may be a bit light overall, but as we talked about previously our plan is to make smaller, more controlled adjustments more often and re-evaluate as needed with the goal of improving balance in the long run.

    That's all for today's update. There's definitely more to discuss balance-wise than just soulbeast, and we'll have more to talk about in a future post.

    -The Systems Team

    Here are the relevant soulbeast changes for anyone who doesn't want to cross-check with the update notes, but definitely go check out the notes for the full list of bugfixes.

    • Pack Alpha: Reduced stats granted to merged soulbeasts from 150 to 75 in PvP and WvW.
    • Pet's Prowess: Reduced ferocity granted to merged soulbeasts from 300 to 150 in PvP and WvW.
    • Ferocious (Soulbeast Pet Archetype Effect): Reduced power granted from 200 to 100 in PvP and WvW.
    • Maul: Reduced power coefficient from 1.5 to 1.36 in PvP and WvW.
    • Worldly Impact: Reduced power coefficient from 1.512 to 1.36 in PvP and WvW.

    Exciting! I'm thinking we are now 1 step closer to some major improvements and buffs to profession stuff that needs it!

  • Substance E.4852Substance E.4852 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Substance E.4852 said:
    So when the kitten are you gonna touch condi thieves plaguing WvW?

    Or are we just catering to people who still cry about losing to a ranger?

    I haven't even seen one in wvw since the condi thief nerf half yr ago or so, they still around? Do u mean condi DE?

    The only thieves I see not playing condi evade cheese are pew pew rangers who migrated to rifle deadeye builds

  • Bossun.2046Bossun.2046 Member ✭✭✭

    such a well reasoned nerf to slb. attacked where it would only affect one build good job.

    Now if we could have gotten the same train of thought to tools SD holo...

    sugoi monogatari oniichan

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Substance E.4852 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Substance E.4852 said:
    So when the kitten are you gonna touch condi thieves plaguing WvW?

    Or are we just catering to people who still cry about losing to a ranger?

    I haven't even seen one in wvw since the condi thief nerf half yr ago or so, they still around? Do u mean condi DE?

    The only thieves I see not playing condi evade cheese are pew pew rangers who migrated to rifle deadeye builds

    Lol I'm behind the times on sa DD dp

  • Dahkeus.8243Dahkeus.8243 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stallic.2397 said:
    What about the pets and their passive CC's?

    The swap mechanics of pets make them often more of an active effect than a passive one for all but the lowest tiers of gameplay. Hell, I'm a pretty casual player, but I even know how to manage when I un-merge to get a knockdown from my pet.

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2020

    I think you broke the tooltip for Maul with these changes.
    It says it does less damage when ferocious-merged than when un-merged.
    A couple of quick tests suggest that isn't the case though and only a tooltip issue.

    Also, you might want to consider giving them something else in return. Damage changes that smooth things out and address things that stick out are fine, that is the purpose of your changes after all. However, it's a rather under-used class overall (in WvW) and there are things you could give in terms of utility to shape a role for it when playing with other classes. The application and utility on both core, Druid and Soulbeast is often clunky and leaves more to be desired. The staff-mechanics which are very PvE/pet oriented, the power-to-user friendliness balance of glyphs (which are rather weak for how clunky they are) and things like the pre-nerfed state of stance-sharing comes to mind.

  • ArlAlt.1630ArlAlt.1630 Member ✭✭✭

    @Moira Shalaar.5620 said:
    So, since commanders in WvW already hate rangers and routinely kick us, rangers were left to be the premier roamers, in part because of our DPS. @Cal Cohen, Tell me then, now that you have double nerfed Rangers, first with the tuning down that everybody received and now this, what role in WvW do you envision for Rangers? Surely you haven't adopted the meta opinion that Rangers have no place in WvW, and yet by listening to all the opposition to Rangers on the forums you are stripping away the last role in which playing ranger shined.

    Chrono/Mirage wave at you. Welcome, care for some tea?

    [HCM] 4 life!

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    can you fix pet damage?

    This is important. We have a couple of pets hitting for 9-10k (namely tiger and some birds) on good days. people who just played ranger for the maul meme wont have any difficulty moving over to the pet oriented variant, especially because those can also be unblockable.

    It's worth a look.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2020

    @Substance E.4852 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    can you fix pet damage?

    This is important. We have a couple of pets hitting for 9-10k (namely tiger and some birds) on good days. people who just played ranger for the maul meme wont have any difficulty moving over to the pet oriented variant, especially because those can also be unblockable.

    It's worth a look.

    "Birds hitting for 9-10k"

    What is it with the ranger that forces people to just flat out lie?

    Do you people have that much of a personal beef with the class?

    Pets have never been able to hit for this much outside of the very old smokescale and bugged gazelle and nothing has been done to them to make them hit this hard now

    Ranger is simultaneously the most OP class in the game while half the playerbase is running some kind of burn guard these days

    Doesn't make much sense to me

    You arent making sense
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/99760/kitten-fix-this-kitten-pets-coefficients-already#latest
    Still did maul on zerk core ranger 9800 on engi, good nerf /s

  • Substance E.4852Substance E.4852 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArlAlt.1630 said:

    @Moira Shalaar.5620 said:
    So, since commanders in WvW already hate rangers and routinely kick us, rangers were left to be the premier roamers, in part because of our DPS. @Cal Cohen, Tell me then, now that you have double nerfed Rangers, first with the tuning down that everybody received and now this, what role in WvW do you envision for Rangers? Surely you haven't adopted the meta opinion that Rangers have no place in WvW, and yet by listening to all the opposition to Rangers on the forums you are stripping away the last role in which playing ranger shined.

    Chrono/Mirage wave at you. Welcome, care for some tea?

    Veil and portal have alsways been good in a zerg and there was a good period of time when gravity well was top tier CC

    Just because they don't need more than 1 mesmer per 30 or so players doesn't mean mesmer is anywhere nearly as loathed as ranger in a zerg

    Even thieves never got as kitten on, especially back when they could just obliterate a backline with vault spam

  • Substance E.4852Substance E.4852 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Substance E.4852 said:
    Stop crying for anet to nerf it into irrelevance because you want to ignore it instead of learning to play

    An add not maybe not doing 5 digit strikes while the player it is allied to actively attacks you isn't "nerfing it into irrelevance." If it did half that it would still be useful.
    @Odik.4587 Is right on this.

    What is it with the ranger that forces people to just flat out lie?

    :astonished:
    It's not hard to fact check me instead of accusing me of lying. Odik has screenshots though. Pounce for tiger hits about that hard too.

    Bro, look at the pic. It says right there that it hit 6 times with slash which means it hit with 3 separate attacks that do 2 packets of damage each.

    It didn't hit once for 13k.

    No it doesn't, Tiger pounce douesn't even hit that hard in PvE

    And even if it did, we're talking about a dumb melee npc that has 16k health and nearly no armor meaning they can't even survive ambient aoe damage in group fights

    It's just one thing after another. Base game pet's haven't seen a major buff since anet fixed their melee attack range allowing them to actually hit a moving target but suddenly now they do "too much damage"

    Apparently even base ranger isn't allowed to be useful in pvp

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2020

    Bruh, I gave him 2 threads with screens on its damage sources, pounce/F2 on bird/autos on bird 4k EACH and still deny it... if he cant reach that damage because he doesnt know how .... which translates to be bad at his own class... I just took them here, feel free to use them :D



  • Abyssisis.3971Abyssisis.3971 Member ✭✭✭

    ^ what toughness are you running?