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Spoiler: Something very interesting in Steel Warband instance

Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited March 26, 2020 in Lore

I think the thing that caught my attention the most was the introduction of what appeared to be a magically corrupted Stone Summit army. There were also some Destroyers amongst them, so do we think Primordus gained some powers from the other dead Dragons to be able to do something new and unseen from it before?

What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

Comments

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2020

    It was a very.. VERY! curious thing to see Stone Summit in this patch.

    "However, about fifty years after the Rite of the Great Dwarf was first performed, the last of the flesh and blood dwarves felt the call to undergo the Rite themselves. Now, no longer interested in maintaining their solidarity as a race, the last dwarves scattered across Tyria, finding battles to fight in the deep caverns or making new homes in far-flung hills, ever-watching the borders where caverns emerge into the surface world"

    (Edit* this second quote in for more clarity)
    "Initially, some dwarves, such as Ogden Stonehealer and Kilroy Stonekin, were exempt from undergoing the rite. Similarly, the rebel Stone Summit dwarves (who once attempted to summon the Great Destroyer) were not present for the initial ritual. Eventually, all dwarves were made to undergo the rite—by force, if necessary."

    Until now it was pretty much confirmed lore that all Dwarves had eventually undergone the process of becoming Stone Dwarfs, that included the Stone Summit which we now know isn't true.
    Somehow these Dwarfs have not only managed to resist or avoid the call of the Rite but they've become something different.
    Minions of Primordus?.. maybe but Primordus doesn't give two skritts about mortals as has recently been discussed in the forums, he makes his minions from stone and lava.. so it's a very curious thing to see non stone Dwarfs in this game.. let alone ones who can seemingly summon Destroyers.

    This begs a lot of questions that hopefully have good answers because a lot of people are going to be pretty unhappy if the answer turns out tobe.. we kinda forgot about the Stone Dwarf lore lol

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Dwarf playable race one can hope.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I noticed this too and found it curious.

    They come from flame portals, use fire magic exclusively, fight alongside destroyers, and even have a fire-imbued Iron Forgeman. It screams Primordus corruption. The state of these dwarves is questionable, as they seem to be... ghosts of some sort. Sounded very similar to the Shadow Army, personally, being not-quite-ghosts and not-quite-constructs.

    The use of fire magic, especially exclusively, I find equally curious. Even if we ignore non-Elementalists in GW1, most Stone Summit elementalists utilized Water exclusively (like Dagnar and the ice elementals), or used a mix of fire, earth, and water (Sorrow's Embrace foes).

    Now, I draw two conclusions:

    First is akin to @Randulf.7614 and @cNd.1096 - that, somehow, Primordus has corrupted some dwarves into minions.

    But that feels a bit too... simple. Also out of place. All of Primordus' minions have rock and fire in their bodies. Which is par the course for all dragon minions - their bodies shift and shape to the corruption of the Elder Dragon. Only exception are the Aberrants and Fallen, due to them being twisted not by Jormag's magic, but the Lost Spirits'. This would imply Primordus has obtained some sort of subsidiary magic, an entity which serves Primordus, but not fully corruptible, like the Spirits of the Wild.

    The alternative, I think, is far more interesting - and suited for GW1 lore. In GW1, it was no hidden statement that the Stone Summit were trying to make use of the destroyers, specifically the Great Destroyer. They had an entire sect of religion devoted to worshiping the Great Destroyer, even. And Duncan the Black tried to make use of the Great Destroyer's power after its death. With the Stone Summit capable of summoning entities from the Mists, known for imprisoning creatures in summoning stones, and having an interest in the destroyers' magic... What if in the 50 years that passed after Eye of the North, a Duncan-wanna be actually succeeded? What if a contigent of Stone Summit dwarves succeeded in binding power of destroyers (ergo Primordus) to them and their creations - the fragment that had held up in norther Bjora and near Darkrime Delves, where the new missions take place?

    And after obtaining this magic, something happened, that twisted them, cursed them if you will, and bound their souls (and perhaps bodies) to the ruins?

    The first encounter with the Stone Summit has text that hints to their state of being:

    Veteran Stone Summit Cannoneer: (terrifying otherworldly howl)
    [...]
    Nicabar Steelweaver: They don't seem to be...alive. What kind of magic is this?

    Now while I'd debate the "terrifying" part, the "otherworldly" part shows that they're neither living nor dragon minions (after all, dragon minions are very much "thisworldly" in Tyria's scope).

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    It was a very.. VERY! curious thing to see Stone Summit in this patch.
    [...]
    Until now it was pretty much confirmed lore that all Dwarves had eventually undergone the process of becoming Stone Dwarfs, that included the Stone Summit which we now know isn't true.
    Somehow these Dwarfs have not only managed to resist or avoid the call of the Rite but they've become something different.

    I wouldn't say these dwarves resisted the call. They fully appear to be not-living beings. Dead dwarves wouldn't undergo the Rite.

    Vishen makes a point in the mission to call the Stone Summit out as "performers of profane rituals". Them having done something to themselves to avoid the Rite of the Dwarves, by making them not-living thus resisting the call, isn't unlikely. Especially if this group were particularly reverent in worshiping the Great Destroyer.

    Minions of Primordus?.. maybe but Primordus doesn't give two skritts about mortals as has recently been discussed in the forums, he makes his minions from stone and lava.. so it's a very curious thing to see non stone Dwarfs in this game.. let alone ones who can seemingly summon Destroyers.

    It should be noted that it was established that Primordus can corrupt mortals if it pleases, and it is heavily suggested that the imbued shaman of Volcanic Fractal is exactly that: a grawl corrupted by Primordus' energies.

    EDIT: Should also be noted that, aside from the Canonneers, these Stone Summit wield destroyer/Primordus weapons. And it is the Stone Summit Rangers which summon Destroyer Crabs (much like how Sons of Svanir rangers summon Icebrood Wolves).

    Really interesting, but it negs the question when is this subplot gonna continue, are we likely tp see this surface in lw or another vision of past maybe?

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I noticed this too and found it curious.

    They come from flame portals, use fire magic exclusively, fight alongside destroyers, and even have a fire-imbued Iron Forgeman. It screams Primordus corruption. The state of these dwarves is questionable, as they seem to be... ghosts of some sort. Sounded very similar to the Shadow Army, personally, being not-quite-ghosts and not-quite-constructs.

    The use of fire magic, especially exclusively, I find equally curious. Even if we ignore non-Elementalists in GW1, most Stone Summit elementalists utilized Water exclusively (like Dagnar and the ice elementals), or used a mix of fire, earth, and water (Sorrow's Embrace foes).

    Now, I draw two conclusions:

    First is akin to @Randulf.7614 and @cNd.1096 - that, somehow, Primordus has corrupted some dwarves into minions.

    But that feels a bit too... simple. Also out of place. All of Primordus' minions have rock and fire in their bodies. Which is par the course for all dragon minions - their bodies shift and shape to the corruption of the Elder Dragon. Only exception are the Aberrants and Fallen, due to them being twisted not by Jormag's magic, but the Lost Spirits'. This would imply Primordus has obtained some sort of subsidiary magic, an entity which serves Primordus, but not fully corruptible, like the Spirits of the Wild.

    The alternative, I think, is far more interesting - and suited for GW1 lore. In GW1, it was no hidden statement that the Stone Summit were trying to make use of the destroyers, specifically the Great Destroyer. They had an entire sect of religion devoted to worshiping the Great Destroyer, even. And Duncan the Black tried to make use of the Great Destroyer's power after its death. With the Stone Summit capable of summoning entities from the Mists, known for imprisoning creatures in summoning stones, and having an interest in the destroyers' magic... What if in the 50 years that passed after Eye of the North, a Duncan-wanna be actually succeeded? What if a contigent of Stone Summit dwarves succeeded in binding power of destroyers (ergo Primordus) to them and their creations - the fragment that had held up in norther Bjora and near Darkrime Delves, where the new missions take place?

    And after obtaining this magic, something happened, that twisted them, cursed them if you will, and bound their souls (and perhaps bodies) to the ruins?

    The first encounter with the Stone Summit has text that hints to their state of being:

    Veteran Stone Summit Cannoneer: (terrifying otherworldly howl)
    [...]
    Nicabar Steelweaver: They don't seem to be...alive. What kind of magic is this?

    Now while I'd debate the "terrifying" part, the "otherworldly" part shows that they're neither living nor dragon minions (after all, dragon minions are very much "thisworldly" in Tyria's scope).

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    It was a very.. VERY! curious thing to see Stone Summit in this patch.
    [...]
    Until now it was pretty much confirmed lore that all Dwarves had eventually undergone the process of becoming Stone Dwarfs, that included the Stone Summit which we now know isn't true.
    Somehow these Dwarfs have not only managed to resist or avoid the call of the Rite but they've become something different.

    I wouldn't say these dwarves resisted the call. They fully appear to be not-living beings. Dead dwarves wouldn't undergo the Rite.

    Vishen makes a point in the mission to call the Stone Summit out as "performers of profane rituals". Them having done something to themselves to avoid the Rite of the Dwarves, by making them not-living thus resisting the call, isn't unlikely. Especially if this group were particularly reverent in worshiping the Great Destroyer.

    Minions of Primordus?.. maybe but Primordus doesn't give two skritts about mortals as has recently been discussed in the forums, he makes his minions from stone and lava.. so it's a very curious thing to see non stone Dwarfs in this game.. let alone ones who can seemingly summon Destroyers.

    It should be noted that it was established that Primordus can corrupt mortals if it pleases, and it is heavily suggested that the imbued shaman of Volcanic Fractal is exactly that: a grawl corrupted by Primordus' energies.

    EDIT: Should also be noted that, aside from the Canonneers, these Stone Summit wield destroyer/Primordus weapons. And it is the Stone Summit Rangers which summon Destroyer Crabs (much like how Sons of Svanir rangers summon Icebrood Wolves).

    Really interesting, but it negs the question when is this subplot gonna continue, are we likely tp see this surface in lw or another vision of past maybe?

    Likely a teaser for later. If it's Primordus I expect very late in the Saga if not a future arc, but if it is something like Konig suggests, it could be raid material

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I noticed this too and found it curious.

    They come from flame portals, use fire magic exclusively, fight alongside destroyers, and even have a fire-imbued Iron Forgeman. It screams Primordus corruption. The state of these dwarves is questionable, as they seem to be... ghosts of some sort. Sounded very similar to the Shadow Army, personally, being not-quite-ghosts and not-quite-constructs.

    The use of fire magic, especially exclusively, I find equally curious. Even if we ignore non-Elementalists in GW1, most Stone Summit elementalists utilized Water exclusively (like Dagnar and the ice elementals), or used a mix of fire, earth, and water (Sorrow's Embrace foes).

    Now, I draw two conclusions:

    First is akin to @Randulf.7614 and @cNd.1096 - that, somehow, Primordus has corrupted some dwarves into minions.

    But that feels a bit too... simple. Also out of place. All of Primordus' minions have rock and fire in their bodies. Which is par the course for all dragon minions - their bodies shift and shape to the corruption of the Elder Dragon. Only exception are the Aberrants and Fallen, due to them being twisted not by Jormag's magic, but the Lost Spirits'. This would imply Primordus has obtained some sort of subsidiary magic, an entity which serves Primordus, but not fully corruptible, like the Spirits of the Wild.

    The alternative, I think, is far more interesting - and suited for GW1 lore. In GW1, it was no hidden statement that the Stone Summit were trying to make use of the destroyers, specifically the Great Destroyer. They had an entire sect of religion devoted to worshiping the Great Destroyer, even. And Duncan the Black tried to make use of the Great Destroyer's power after its death. With the Stone Summit capable of summoning entities from the Mists, known for imprisoning creatures in summoning stones, and having an interest in the destroyers' magic... What if in the 50 years that passed after Eye of the North, a Duncan-wanna be actually succeeded? What if a contigent of Stone Summit dwarves succeeded in binding power of destroyers (ergo Primordus) to them and their creations - the fragment that had held up in norther Bjora and near Darkrime Delves, where the new missions take place?

    And after obtaining this magic, something happened, that twisted them, cursed them if you will, and bound their souls (and perhaps bodies) to the ruins?

    The first encounter with the Stone Summit has text that hints to their state of being:

    Veteran Stone Summit Cannoneer: (terrifying otherworldly howl)
    [...]
    Nicabar Steelweaver: They don't seem to be...alive. What kind of magic is this?

    Now while I'd debate the "terrifying" part, the "otherworldly" part shows that they're neither living nor dragon minions (after all, dragon minions are very much "thisworldly" in Tyria's scope).

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    It was a very.. VERY! curious thing to see Stone Summit in this patch.
    [...]
    Until now it was pretty much confirmed lore that all Dwarves had eventually undergone the process of becoming Stone Dwarfs, that included the Stone Summit which we now know isn't true.
    Somehow these Dwarfs have not only managed to resist or avoid the call of the Rite but they've become something different.

    I wouldn't say these dwarves resisted the call. They fully appear to be not-living beings. Dead dwarves wouldn't undergo the Rite.

    Vishen makes a point in the mission to call the Stone Summit out as "performers of profane rituals". Them having done something to themselves to avoid the Rite of the Dwarves, by making them not-living thus resisting the call, isn't unlikely. Especially if this group were particularly reverent in worshiping the Great Destroyer.

    Minions of Primordus?.. maybe but Primordus doesn't give two skritts about mortals as has recently been discussed in the forums, he makes his minions from stone and lava.. so it's a very curious thing to see non stone Dwarfs in this game.. let alone ones who can seemingly summon Destroyers.

    It should be noted that it was established that Primordus can corrupt mortals if it pleases, and it is heavily suggested that the imbued shaman of Volcanic Fractal is exactly that: a grawl corrupted by Primordus' energies.

    EDIT: Should also be noted that, aside from the Canonneers, these Stone Summit wield destroyer/Primordus weapons. And it is the Stone Summit Rangers which summon Destroyer Crabs (much like how Sons of Svanir rangers summon Icebrood Wolves).

    Really interesting, but it negs the question when is this subplot gonna continue, are we likely tp see this surface in lw or another vision of past maybe?

    Likely a teaser for later. If it's Primordus I expect very late in the Saga if not a future arc, but if it is something like Konig suggests, it could be raid material

    Really doubt we will get elderdragon related stuff in raids but we'll see.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I noticed this too and found it curious.

    They come from flame portals, use fire magic exclusively, fight alongside destroyers, and even have a fire-imbued Iron Forgeman. It screams Primordus corruption. The state of these dwarves is questionable, as they seem to be... ghosts of some sort. Sounded very similar to the Shadow Army, personally, being not-quite-ghosts and not-quite-constructs.

    The use of fire magic, especially exclusively, I find equally curious. Even if we ignore non-Elementalists in GW1, most Stone Summit elementalists utilized Water exclusively (like Dagnar and the ice elementals), or used a mix of fire, earth, and water (Sorrow's Embrace foes).

    Now, I draw two conclusions:

    First is akin to @Randulf.7614 and @cNd.1096 - that, somehow, Primordus has corrupted some dwarves into minions.

    But that feels a bit too... simple. Also out of place. All of Primordus' minions have rock and fire in their bodies. Which is par the course for all dragon minions - their bodies shift and shape to the corruption of the Elder Dragon. Only exception are the Aberrants and Fallen, due to them being twisted not by Jormag's magic, but the Lost Spirits'. This would imply Primordus has obtained some sort of subsidiary magic, an entity which serves Primordus, but not fully corruptible, like the Spirits of the Wild.

    The alternative, I think, is far more interesting - and suited for GW1 lore. In GW1, it was no hidden statement that the Stone Summit were trying to make use of the destroyers, specifically the Great Destroyer. They had an entire sect of religion devoted to worshiping the Great Destroyer, even. And Duncan the Black tried to make use of the Great Destroyer's power after its death. With the Stone Summit capable of summoning entities from the Mists, known for imprisoning creatures in summoning stones, and having an interest in the destroyers' magic... What if in the 50 years that passed after Eye of the North, a Duncan-wanna be actually succeeded? What if a contigent of Stone Summit dwarves succeeded in binding power of destroyers (ergo Primordus) to them and their creations - the fragment that had held up in norther Bjora and near Darkrime Delves, where the new missions take place?

    And after obtaining this magic, something happened, that twisted them, cursed them if you will, and bound their souls (and perhaps bodies) to the ruins?

    The first encounter with the Stone Summit has text that hints to their state of being:

    Veteran Stone Summit Cannoneer: (terrifying otherworldly howl)
    [...]
    Nicabar Steelweaver: They don't seem to be...alive. What kind of magic is this?

    Now while I'd debate the "terrifying" part, the "otherworldly" part shows that they're neither living nor dragon minions (after all, dragon minions are very much "thisworldly" in Tyria's scope).

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    It was a very.. VERY! curious thing to see Stone Summit in this patch.
    [...]
    Until now it was pretty much confirmed lore that all Dwarves had eventually undergone the process of becoming Stone Dwarfs, that included the Stone Summit which we now know isn't true.
    Somehow these Dwarfs have not only managed to resist or avoid the call of the Rite but they've become something different.

    I wouldn't say these dwarves resisted the call. They fully appear to be not-living beings. Dead dwarves wouldn't undergo the Rite.

    Vishen makes a point in the mission to call the Stone Summit out as "performers of profane rituals". Them having done something to themselves to avoid the Rite of the Dwarves, by making them not-living thus resisting the call, isn't unlikely. Especially if this group were particularly reverent in worshiping the Great Destroyer.

    Minions of Primordus?.. maybe but Primordus doesn't give two skritts about mortals as has recently been discussed in the forums, he makes his minions from stone and lava.. so it's a very curious thing to see non stone Dwarfs in this game.. let alone ones who can seemingly summon Destroyers.

    It should be noted that it was established that Primordus can corrupt mortals if it pleases, and it is heavily suggested that the imbued shaman of Volcanic Fractal is exactly that: a grawl corrupted by Primordus' energies.

    EDIT: Should also be noted that, aside from the Canonneers, these Stone Summit wield destroyer/Primordus weapons. And it is the Stone Summit Rangers which summon Destroyer Crabs (much like how Sons of Svanir rangers summon Icebrood Wolves).

    Really interesting, but it negs the question when is this subplot gonna continue, are we likely tp see this surface in lw or another vision of past maybe?

    Likely a teaser for later. If it's Primordus I expect very late in the Saga if not a future arc, but if it is something like Konig suggests, it could be raid material

    Really doubt we will get elderdragon related stuff in raids but we'll see.

    Direct Elder Dragon stuff no, but what Konig is suggesting is enough apart from the main ED story and self contained to justify being raid material

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Ogwom.7940Ogwom.7940 Member ✭✭

    I found that they explode into ash/embers whenever you kill them.

    If they are corrupted by Primordus, do you think that they were turned into stone form the Great Dwarf ritual, which allowed Primordus to corrupt them as they would be made of rock?
    Or was he able to corrupt them as flesh?

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2020

    @Ogwom.7940 said:
    I found that they explode into ash/embers whenever you kill them.

    If they are corrupted by Primordus, do you think that they were turned into stone form the Great Dwarf ritual, which allowed Primordus to corrupt them as they would be made of rock?
    Or was he able to corrupt them as flesh?

    Its possible that the entire plot of becoming stone to fight The Great Destroyer was a ploy to begin with. Elder Dragons are crafty.

    The last few seasons have shown us there's alot we don't really know about Tyria. Particularly, that pesky thing called the truth. I have a feeling that more storylines of GW1 will get this treatment, because its becoming the game's forte.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay | Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest(PvE), Terakura/Spellbreaker & Kitty Koume/Reaper(WvW) | ♀♥♀

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Really interesting, but it negs the question when is this subplot gonna continue, are we likely tp see this surface in lw or another vision of past maybe?

    Likely a teaser for later. If it's Primordus I expect very late in the Saga if not a future arc, but if it is something like Konig suggests, it could be raid material

    There's books in the two missions that apparently cover the state of the Stone Summit and their relation to the Rite of the Great Dwarf.

    I haven't found any myself, but from what I heard, the TL;DR of some books is:

    They underwent the Rite, then at a later time, Primordus corrupted them, turning their insides into flame (this is easily seen with the drakes, who's mouths are completely lava-like).

    This is rather peculiar because the entire point of the Rite was to make the dwarves more resilient to fighting destroyers. One would then think that it shouldn't be capable of corrupting stone dwarves - we know via CoE and dev comments it can corrupt the living, but the "cold, frosty stone" the dwarves turn into should have been, if not immune, incredibly difficult to corrupt.

    It's also curious why it's just Stone Summit. So I imagine there's further answers in the remaining books those I talked to hadn't found yet. There's apparently 5 books in Forging Steel, and 3 in Darkrime Delves.

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    @Ogwom.7940 said:
    I found that they explode into ash/embers whenever you kill them.

    If they are corrupted by Primordus, do you think that they were turned into stone form the Great Dwarf ritual, which allowed Primordus to corrupt them as they would be made of rock?
    Or was he able to corrupt them as flesh?

    Its possible that the entire plot of becoming stone to fight The Great Destroyer was a ploy to begin with. Elder Dragons are crafty.

    The last few seasons have shown us there's alot we don't really know about Tyria. Particularly, that pesky thing called the truth. I have a feeling that more storylines of GW1 will get this treatment, because its becoming the game's forte.

    Continuous retcons and ignoring the lore's foundation is a forte? :confused:

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Journal_of_Forgemender_Arngirn Lore on the Stone Summit:

    TL;DR

    A faction of the Stone Summit who refused to rejoin Deldrimor unlike the others, and fought hard to resist the Rite of the Great Dwarf. But even without undergoing the Rite directly, they slowly became stone dwarves. Seems they resisted long enough that Jormag rose, as it mentions "ice beasts" (which makes them the last "living" dwarves, the others would have undergone the Rite long before them). After enough time, their scholars found a way to use the Rite's magic to change it, and used Duncan's scrolls to enact this, which corrupted them to Primordus' energies.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2020

    Some good stuff here :) was looking forward to Konig's posts.

    I'm wondering if the key here is the hints that they're not alive.
    Perhaps this was a sort of salvation for them at first giving them the ability to avoid becoming Stone Dwarfs and if they managed to use Primordus magic to achieve it then im curious about how this may/could have backfired after the death of Zhaitan and Promordus absorbing the power of death magic.

    Being un-living beings would not protect them from Primordus in this case, specially if they had used his own magic to twist themselves into the creatures they became, if anything that would probably make them easier for him to corrupt.

    This theory of course would depend on Forging Steel taking place after the Death of Zhaitan which I am not sure if it does or not.. I'm pretty confident it does take place more recently but I don't have any info to confirm it hence my uncertainty.
    All I really have to go on here is Rylands Rank of Centurion which he gained shortly before the events in Grothmar Valley but I'll have to replay Forging Steel to confirm whether he had this rank during those events or not as my memory has once again failed me on this information.
    If he did have the Rank then Forging Steel is very recent and likely took place at some point along side Living world 4.

    Regardless to the truth on the subject the very fact that non stone Dwarves exist in Gw2 is pretty awesome and im curious to find out more about them.

  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2020

    It's very interesting indeed. I think I'm not far wrong by saying they are dwarfs? (they are small). Through, why not having created them like the ones of thunderhead peaks? I mean they are small, but I haven't noticed a big head like the bobbled effect. It kinda ruins it, they feels more like small humans than dwarfs. If dwarfs are now primordius minions and fighting among destroyers, It can be a very interesting plot for the future. Seeing the quality of the strike mission, why not creating scrying pool vision about the past of different races? I mean, we bring an old asuran rock, and we can see what happened, the exodus of asura as example. -> Bring a panel part from rata novus and woops you can re-experience the evacuation with chaks etc! Even for an expansion it's interesting: Asura wanting to rediscover their past in the depths of tyria and having to fight destroyers and corrupted dwarfs. That model of public vision can be frankly adapted to any story/landscape, Mallyck.... following joko invasion in elona... reviving battle on lion's arch awith the miasmas... anything.

    It is awesome to finally see primordius not only creating minions from nothing but also being able to convert living beings, the only thing like this was in Personal sory that destroyer devourer queen at a skritt outpost. But yup you also have the volcanic fractal, but I wonder if for that one, if it's not just the shaman that enhanced himself with grawl fire magic and so not really destroyers.

    +++In creative mood. New Engie Elite spec' , Housing , New asuran expansion , Designing a new lounge , New GameMode
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  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2020

    @hugo.4705 said:
    It's very interesting indeed. I think I'm not far wrong by saying they are dwarfs? (they are small). Through, why not having created them like the ones of thunderhead peaks? I mean they are small, but I haven't noticed a big head like the bobbled effect. It kinda ruins it, they feels more like small humans than dwarfs. If dwarfs are now primordius minions and fighting among destroyers, It can be a very interesting plot for the future. Seeing the quality of the strike mission, why not creating scrying pool vision about the past of different races? I mean, we bring an old asuran rock, and we can see what happened, the exodus of asura as example. -> Bring a panel part from rata novus and woops you can re-experience the evacuation with chaks etc! Even for an expansion it's interesting: Asura wanting to rediscover their past in the depths of tyria and having to fight destroyers and corrupted dwarfs. That model of public vision can be frankly adapted to any story/landscape, Mallyck.... following joko invasion in elona... reviving battle on lion's arch awith the miasmas... anything.

    It is awesome to finally see primordius not only creating minions from nothing but also being able to convert living beings, the only thing like this was in Personal sory that destroyer devourer queen at a skritt outpost. But yup you also have the volcanic fractal, but I wonder if for that one, if it's not just the shaman that enhanced himself with grawl fire magic and so not really destroyers.

    Yes they are dwarves. The Stone Summit were a prominent enemy faction in gw1 during Prophecies and we fought a big battle against their leader in Thunderhead. They also appeared in an endgame dungeon in EotN

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2020

    I suspect the Stone Summit may have attempted to do their own version of the Rites that uses the magical energy of Primordus but something went wrong and it lead to them all turning into this stone fire zombies we see now and minions of Primordus due to becoming pure stone.

    Primordus may not have intentionally corrupted them but it was a accidental side effect of the Stone Summit version of the Rites.
    Thus the Stone Summit can be considered Anti-Great Dwarf Will while the Dwarf we know that became Stone through the normal Rites are the Great Dwarf Will.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I'm wondering if the key here is the hints that they're not alive.
    Perhaps this was a sort of salvation for them at first giving them the ability to avoid becoming Stone Dwarfs and if they managed to use Primordus magic to achieve it then im curious about how this may/could have backfired after the death of Zhaitan and Promordus absorbing the power of death magic.

    Being un-living beings would not protect them from Primordus in this case, specially if they had used his own magic to twist themselves into the creatures they became, if anything that would probably make them easier for him to corrupt.

    It should be noted that being made of stone, all stone dwarves are technically "unliving beings" and "not quite alive". I do not think Zhaitan's magic has anything to do with this - the journal makes it clear that these Stone Summit's attempts at escaping the Rite of the Great Dwarf was utilizing scrolls owned by Duncan the Black, who was seeking to usurp the Great Destroyer's power. It also indicates that they're pulling power from Primordus, though indirectly stating such. There's no death magic involved here, I believe.

    While we're not given an indication for how long these Stone Summit had been Primordus-influenced, it had to have been quite a while given that they began being influenced almost immediately, and they had begun the rituals around when Jormag descended the area based on the "ice beasts" comments. This would put them as "destroyer-dwarves" for ~150 years.

    This theory of course would depend on Forging Steel taking place after the Death of Zhaitan which I am not sure if it does or not.. I'm pretty confident it does take place more recently but I don't have any info to confirm it hence my uncertainty.

    Forging Steel and Darkrime Delves take place just after the events of Bound by Blood, before the events of The Whisper in the Dark. The entire plot is the Steel Warband making their way after Bangar's troops - at the beginning of Forged Steel, you have Ash and Flame talking about their new imperator Bangar, and the Flame guy commenting on Efram's weakness; similarly, we got dialogue about the Metal Legion concert, Bangar's "one charr" speech, and at the end, Bangar and Ryland go into Darkrime Delves to circumnavigate the blizzard that prevented us from following Bangar.

    The last bit is particularly interesting, because this gives a new view as to the relation between Jormag and Bangar. Before, I had theorized that the blizzard was made by the Fraenir to slow down the Commander so they couldn't catch up to Bangar. But the blizzard was slowing down Bangar too, which implies Jormag is trying to slow/stop Bangar just as much as the Commander.

    Regardless to the truth on the subject the very fact that non stone Dwarves exist in Gw2 is pretty awesome and im curious to find out more about them.

    Technically they are stone dwarves, but they're stone dwarves who were "destroyerfied".

    Which is just as interesting - although this was an isolated group, Elder Dragons learn what their minions know, and this is the first time we hear of living beings becoming destroyers. This means that not only might we find an expansion to Primordus' army next time we encounter it, but it also means that Primordus might have learned how to corrupt other stone dwarves after these guys fell. They were locked up by their own accord, hence why they were trapped there, but with Bangar's and Ryland's actions, they're now free to roam with the destroyer armies.

    It leads to several possibilities: Deldrimor Stone Dwarf Destroyers on top of Stone Summit Stone Dwarf Destroyers, but also these Stone Dwarf Destroyers forging weaponry and armor, giving destroyers harder shells and sharper claws. Depending on their level of intellect, and how much knowledge Primordus gained from them.

    @hugo.4705 said:
    It's very interesting indeed. I think I'm not far wrong by saying they are dwarfs? (they are small). Through, why not having created them like the ones of thunderhead peaks? I mean they are small, but I haven't noticed a big head like the bobbled effect. It kinda ruins it, they feels more like small humans than dwarfs.

    Dwarves always had improportionally large heads in GW1: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_Wiki:Projects/NPC_models/Dwarves Larger proportioned heads than humans compared to the body proportions, that's for sure.

    This guy was always the funniest.

    So if you felt the heads were large compared to what were hastily shrunk norn models, then they probably stayed true to GW1's vision of dwarves.

    It is awesome to finally see primordius not only creating minions from nothing but also being able to convert living beings, the only thing like this was in Personal sory that destroyer devourer queen at a skritt outpost. But yup you also have the volcanic fractal, but I wonder if for that one, if it's not just the shaman that enhanced himself with grawl fire magic and so not really destroyers.

    Technically that destroyer queen was also creating minions from rock and lava, just that it used incubation pods (aka eggs) instead of spawning pools. That said, Volcanic Fractal has indeed been a long-time case of Primordus' energies corrupting a living being - besides the description for how Primordus would corrupt the living matching that grawl perfectly, it even wields a destroyer bow - and we see similar to a less flashy effect happen in CoE story.

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    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2020

    I think maybe Primordious with a little Zhaitan spice, managed to reanimate the long dead Dwarves.

    I thought at first "wait, these are hostile dwarves that were alive all this time!?" then I saw the Destroyers.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    This theory of course would depend on Forging Steel taking place after the Death of Zhaitan which I am not sure if it does or not.. I'm pretty confident it does take place more recently but I don't have any info to confirm it hence my uncertainty.
    All I really have to go on here is Rylands Rank of Centurion which he gained shortly before the events in Grothmar Valley but I'll have to replay Forging Steel to confirm whether he had this rank during those events or not as my memory has once again failed me on this information.
    If he did have the Rank then Forging Steel is very recent and likely took place at some point along side Living world 4.

    Didn't Forging Steel happen directly after Bangar broke off from Grothmar Valley?
    Bangar already has Braham's Bow, and they were making their way into the Shiverpeaks.

    Also alot of ambient chatter from Ryland's company discussing their views of Bangar, and Nica mentioned him being a "Rouge Imperator"

    What doesn't make sense is how their base camp wasn't covered in snow but we could just brush that off as being another side of the pass which has lesser snow.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    This theory of course would depend on Forging Steel taking place after the Death of Zhaitan which I am not sure if it does or not.. I'm pretty confident it does take place more recently but I don't have any info to confirm it hence my uncertainty.
    All I really have to go on here is Rylands Rank of Centurion which he gained shortly before the events in Grothmar Valley but I'll have to replay Forging Steel to confirm whether he had this rank during those events or not as my memory has once again failed me on this information.
    If he did have the Rank then Forging Steel is very recent and likely took place at some point along side Living world 4.

    Didn't Forging Steel happen directly after Bangar broke off from Grothmar Valley?
    Bangar already has Braham's Bow, and they were making their way into the Shiverpeaks.

    Also alot of ambient chatter from Ryland's company discussing their views of Bangar, and Nica mentioned him being a "Rouge Imperator"

    What doesn't make sense is how their base camp wasn't covered in snow but we could just brush that off as being another side of the pass which has lesser snow.

    The map's pretty ambiguous about the landscape in that area. Could just be another "lowland" spot like southern Wayfarer Foothills.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I'm wondering if the key here is the hints that they're not alive.
    Perhaps this was a sort of salvation for them at first giving them the ability to avoid becoming Stone Dwarfs and if they managed to use Primordus magic to achieve it then im curious about how this may/could have backfired after the death of Zhaitan and Promordus absorbing the power of death magic.

    Being un-living beings would not protect them from Primordus in this case, specially if they had used his own magic to twist themselves into the creatures they became, if anything that would probably make them easier for him to corrupt.

    It should be noted that being made of stone, all stone dwarves are technically "unliving beings" and "not quite alive". I do not think Zhaitan's magic has anything to do with this - the journal makes it clear that these Stone Summit's attempts at escaping the Rite of the Great Dwarf was utilizing scrolls owned by Duncan the Black, who was seeking to usurp the Great Destroyer's power. It also indicates that they're pulling power from Primordus, though indirectly stating such. There's no death magic involved here, I believe.

    While we're not given an indication for how long these Stone Summit had been Primordus-influenced, it had to have been quite a while given that they began being influenced almost immediately, and they had begun the rituals around when Jormag descended the area based on the "ice beasts" comments. This would put them as "destroyer-dwarves" for ~150 years.

    Ahh I didn't mean Zhaitan's magic had anything to do with with them being unliving, I was referring to these Dwarfs being dead or more specifically like corporeal spirits.
    I hadn't read those journals from the mission, didn't know about them.
    The Stone summit don't look like Stone Dwarfs so I figured they found a way to avoid the transformation or subvert it by becoming some other kind of unliving being using Ritualist magic hence the spirits assumption and how that would now make them more vulnerable to Primordus due to him having the Death Spectrum as well as his own magic.

    What I am getting from the journals is that they did become stone or at the very least they almost did so they may not be completely stone hence why they don't look like Ogden and the other stone dwarfs.
    They've also used some kind of Ritual magic that was once used by Duncan the Black in an attempt to control the Great Destroyer.. my guess is they used this magic on Primordus himself and it backfired badly.
    Perhaps it is some kind of binding ritual or channeling magic that connected them on a spiritual level to Primordus and the fire spectrum which killed some of them (melting them from the inside out) and overwhelming others and driving them insane.

    This would kind of make sense if we bring The All into it.
    "The All is depicted as a grand mechanism moving around a central body. Some, including Scarlet Briar and the Pact Commander, have interpreted this central body to be the Pale Tree,[1][4] although it is more commonly interpreted to be Tyria itself.[3] Orbiting this central body are six large bodies (interpreted as the Elder Dragons or spirit realms), existing in primal symbiosis."

    Specifically the bit that catches my eye here is: "Orbiting this central body are six large bodies (interpreted as the Elder Dragons or spirit realms)"
    What if both those interpritations are in fact true.. and the Orbs represent both an Elder Dragon and a Spirit realm that dragon holds dominion over and is deeply connected to.. in Primordus case Fire.
    Ritualist magic is based around spirits and spiritual energy, communing and channeling.. and the rites used by the Stone summit to become what they are was based on the Ritual used by Duncan the Black.. who was a very powerful Ritualist as well.

    In theory then what the Stone Summit succeeded in doing was tapping into this Spirit realm of pure fire using Primordus as some kind of conduit and then channeling fire magic from the same source that Primordus gets his power from.
    This could be how they obtained some of the same powers as Primordus without actually being corrupted by him, but at the same time this raw primal fire magic completely overwhelmed them and burnt away their minds and their spirits/souls leaving them the raging monsters they are today.. no better than Destroyers in many ways.

  • the appearance of the dwarves was the most anticlimactic thing about this patch... after years of mystery.... we get them in a random patch with nothing relating to then. no buildup for something like that, they just appear like random mobs...

    this was very sad indeed, i mean there could be interesting things like, why they are so many in a snowy area, so close to jormag influence, and that yet can summon destroyers. but nope, all you get is " we are going in a dwarven ruin, i heard it is haunted" and BOOM random dwarven mobs... at first i didn’t even realize they where dwarves because i had music on, it wasn’t until one of the bridge ambush that i realized "wait a minute are those real dwarves?"...

    very disappointing there, but i hope they get real screen time in a real episode.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Karkara.9067 said:
    the appearance of the dwarves was the most anticlimactic thing about this patch... after years of mystery.... we get them in a random patch with nothing relating to then. no buildup for something like that, they just appear like random mobs...

    this was very sad indeed, i mean there could be interesting things like, why they are so many in a snowy area, so close to jormag influence, and that yet can summon destroyers. but nope, all you get is " we are going in a dwarven ruin, i heard it is haunted" and BOOM random dwarven mobs... at first i didn’t even realize they where dwarves because i had music on, it wasn’t until one of the bridge ambush that i realized "wait a minute are those real dwarves?"...

    very disappointing there, but i hope they get real screen time in a real episode.

    There is a reason for that which comes into to play when you do the associated book collection.

    These are offshoot of the main dwarf race and in part carries on from the GW1 EOTN end game plot. That is a very clever tie in by Anet.

    The main dwarven race are still out there. Their story is still out there unspoiled by this very cool reveal

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Karkara.9067 said:
    the appearance of the dwarves was the most anticlimactic thing about this patch... after years of mystery.... we get them in a random patch with nothing relating to then. no buildup for something like that, they just appear like random mobs...

    this was very sad indeed, i mean there could be interesting things like, why they are so many in a snowy area, so close to jormag influence, and that yet can summon destroyers. but nope, all you get is " we are going in a dwarven ruin, i heard it is haunted" and BOOM random dwarven mobs... at first i didn’t even realize they where dwarves because i had music on, it wasn’t until one of the bridge ambush that i realized "wait a minute are those real dwarves?"...

    very disappointing there, but i hope they get real screen time in a real episode.

    I would disagree. It's not really a "random patch" but a patch that covers areas directly tied to the dwarves - in GW1, the Stone Summit were trying to get into Darkrime Delves because they believed it held ancient dwarven artifacts, and they wanted to use it as a base to plan a retaliation against the Deldrimor. They couldn't go in during GW1 because jotuns had inhabited the area - but the PC cleared out the jotun under a bet with some norn.

    There's books in both missions that explain what is going on with the dwarves, so that complaint I feel is unfounded and is just a case of "oh, ANet didn't shove the lore in our face therefore there is no lore worthwhile!" But this is par the course for ANet - ever since the days of Prophecies, 90% of the lore had been in side content: optional dialogue, side quests, the design of the world, scripted behavior of NPCs, etc. It's a staple of what, to me at least, makes GW lore fun to explore.

    On top of that, as Randulf said, this is explained to be a small faction of the Stone Summit - going by placement of Stone Summit in EotN, one of 4 surviving clans of Stone Summit; saying nothing for Deldrimor. And their return, imo, opens a lot of possibilities for the return of other dwarves - keep in mind that before All or Nothing's release, there was only one dwarf model, and it had (and probably still has) zero animations behind an idle standing animation (poor Ogden).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Basically, I'm taking all this as the Stone Summit getting what they eminently deserved, turned into minions of the dark powers they meddled with.

  • @Jimbru.6014 said:
    Basically, I'm taking all this as the Stone Summit getting what they eminently deserved, turned into minions of the dark powers they meddled with.

    Agreed, the slavers are now the slaves.

    Hate Is Fuel.