Unlock elite spec Weapons to core

I'd really love to see the last 2 elite spec weapons unlocked for core game play.

I feel like it would serious give some classes some much needed weapon options and would create some pretty interesting build options in generalI feel like some of the weapons we unlock fill gaps in our characters

I guess this would mean you could experience these weapons whilst leveling too - personally I'd love to run through the game again but sometimes I really just want to try out weaver so I can play a sword engi so I just end up book boosting

I'd really love to use a staff on dead eye, that would be pretty baller - and condi dagger on druid.

I like the current system

No thanks. The weapons are tied to their elite specialization

If you only unlock the spec but none of the traits for it then you can in theory equip the traitline and use the spec's weapon on a core class.. however the trade off is that you are totally wasting a traitline just for a weapon which most would agree isnt worth it.

That said it was pretty funny runing around Tyria on a Condi Necro with a Torch and still having access to a shroud :D

@Teratus.2859 said:If you only unlock the spec but none of the traits for it then you can in theory equip the traitline and use the spec's weapon on a core class.. however the trade off is that you are totally wasting a traitline just for a weapon which most would agree isnt worth it.

That said it was pretty funny runing around Tyria on a Condi Necro with a Torch and still having access to a shroud :D

well thats an interesting one haha i didnt know you could do that

@Billy.1879 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:If you only unlock the spec but none of the traits for it then you can in theory equip the traitline and use the spec's weapon on a core class.. however the trade off is that you are totally wasting a traitline just for a weapon which most would agree isnt worth it.

That said it was pretty funny runing around Tyria on a Condi Necro with a Torch and still having access to a shroud :D

Yep ^^ well it was a while ago when I realized it was possible, I don't know if it has been patched out since then though, don't see why it would be considering it's hardly something that can be exploited, loosing that traitline would hurt a lot more than getting to use a Warhorn with a shroud XD

I think while it's hypothetically possible to equip a functional elite spec weapon while not using the correct elite spec, I could think of two problems why we don't see it happen (well at least as of now):

1. Balance stuff.
2. Possible clash with future elite spec. By clash I mean, if the nature of some future elite specs will alter or augment the weapon skills (think of mirage ambush skill, weaver & thief dual skills) that means the teams will have more weapons to work on and balance. On top of that, existing elite specs that already augment some of the weapon skills have to be updated and revisited continuously when they add more weapons with future elite specs. As example, weaver. They got dual skills for every main hand and two handed weapons. If in the future they add these weapons, that means they gotta revisit weaver and add that skills too. Similar with another class like Mirage as well. Then it goes back to the first point.

So all in all, they might have thought about this, about long into the future, I think the problem they're concerned in is primarily how they can sustainably develop future elite specs. I'm not a developer though, it's just an amateur guess. But if we ignore this problem, I can definitely see elite specs weapon be used outside of its respective spec (for that class obviously). Let's say holo sword, while they are tied with heat mechanic, if hypothetically used by scrapper/core, the skills would just be the default, 0 heat, holo sword skills. Or weaver sword used by core/tempest would just mean that every time they switch element they won't get dual skills and no global cool down.

Edited some typos.

if balance problems were somehow ironed out then this is a good idea. game doesn't have enough options.

I personally would like to see the same (want to level a thief using staff), but I don't expect it to ever happen (because they're locked into the elite spez thematically).

That said, as said before, the way it could work:

• Change the weapon into a core weapon (say staff for Thief)
• Change the staff to be somehow weaker (remove some damage, or boons, or condis or whatever)
• Change the first trait unlock for DareDevil (Proficiency) to instead give back the bonuses removed from staff

That way the weapon gets better with the elite, but you can still play it without.

Elite specs should never have been locked. This is bad design all around. I thought playing your spec while leveling was when you were supposed to learn how to play your spec, the way it is now you level up then re spec and try to learn an entirely new way to play your character. Totally dumb.

the problem is how they were designed from the start, the weapon should not be a part of the elite spec but instead simply unlock said weapon type for the profession.that way professions that already struggle with less weapon availability can expand instead of just one single weapon, the engineer is a prime example for this.

I was just curious about how people would feel regarding a change to Elite Specializations so that the weapons they unlock are usable without the Specialization equipped.

Meaning, you'd be able to create Core or alternate Elite builds that feature said weapon.

Of course, there would need to be a few adjustments to certain weapon sets. Notably, Thief Staff getting a Malicious Hook Strike, Thief Rifle getting a non-malicious Death's Judgment and Warrior Dagger getting Adrenaline 2 and 3 effects.

Outside of that, the only consideration would be any potential adverse effects from a particular build becoming stronger due to access to a weapon that better suits the build (I.e. Condi Chrono being able to use Axe, Condi Herald being able to use Shortbow etc)

Hi there! This topic already exists: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/100684/unlock-elite-spec-weapons-to-core

The quote below why I think a lot of us actually want to see this change.

@"sorudo.9054" said:the problem is how they were designed from the start, the weapon should not be a part of the elite spec but instead simply unlock said weapon type for the profession.that way professions that already struggle with less weapon availability can expand instead of just one single weapon, the engineer is a prime example for this.

I for one could see it being implemented as sinking enough Hero Points into a specialization to acquire it's Tier-0 weapon unlock (30 points), whereafter a player can slot that "weapon mastery" into a separate place in their build.

Concept: Weapon Mastery as an Unlockable Add-On

Rather than a full trait-line, this would be a simple "add-on" bonus that allows a class to wield an additional weapon type -- guardian's could use axes or longbows, engineers could uses hammers or swords, etc. Only one mastery can be chosen at a time, allowing more expansive and atypical builds, but also preventing the wholesale abuse of weaponry.

Keep in mind that this would also be self-limiting, a very important distinction to make! Let us take the following scenario: a Daredevil thief wielding a Rifle. Sure they gain access to the powerful Death's Judgment stealth attack, but keep the following in mind:

• They cannot access the Deadeye traits that improve upon rifle dramatically -- so no "Silent Scope."
• Neither can they gain Malice, greatly inhibiting the effectiveness of "Death's Judgment" (which normally gains +25% damage per stack -- up to +125% or +175% with Maleficent Seven).
• They still only get "Swipe" for their steal ability, so there's no potential for a powerful boon spam as an opener to its use (that doesn't immediately place them in melee range and immobilized for the 1/2 second of activation).
• "Kneel" works entirely counter to Daredevil's core mechanics of rapid movement and evasion, forcing a very detrimental trade-off with the entire trait line if one wishes to maximize rifle's damage and effectiveness. In fact, it could even be noted that kneeling should prevent the use of Daredevil's dodge abilities. (Why? Because you aren't mobile.)
• Losing staff (because they swapped for Rifle!) means they also cannot properly benefit from the "Staff Master" trait.
• Rifle is best used from range (as a 1200/1500 range weapon), which lays well outside of the 360 range of "Marauder's Resilience."

Etcetera, and so on. And this is hardly as polarized (hah) as what synergies a "Holosmith" engineer would lose if they chose to run hammers.

There's something else to keep in mind: weapons already have only limited trait synergy with their elite spec! Trait lines only grant a single trait which directly benefits a weapon's usage -- of those that even do. Dragon Hunter (guardian), Scrapper and Holosmith (engineer), Soulbeast (ranger), Reaper (necromancer), Tempest (elementalist), and Chronomancer (mesmer) do not grant an explicit trait for wielding their elite weapon!

Counterpoint: Handling Competitive Play

While I am very aware that granting access to a number weapon-specific skills could cause some ripples in the balance of the game, this is a feature that could simply be disabled in competitive play -- which is clearly quite possible now that skills and traits (and builds, with the release of templates!) have been split between PvE, PvP, and WvW gameplay.

Having it as a PvE-only ability would not be terribly unfair in any regards, when it has no influence upon other modes of play where strictly regimented builds and balance are a requirement.

tl;dr:

If anything, it would grant a lot of us more freedom and creativity in how we approach problems -- and epitomize the concept of counterplay once touted with the original release of Elite Specializations, for the fact that using a contrary weapon mastery would not only be a conscious choice, but one inhibitive of an "optimal" build.

Weapons are inherently worse without the elite spec traits to make them, at the minimum, balanced with other weapons. So there is no reason to not have them unlocked always after the Elite Spec has been opened up. It hasn't been done likely because they didn't make the tech for it. Not because of balance.

Honestly, just having the 30 HP into unlock the Specialization which allows usage of the weapon should unlock the weapon for core.

There aren't any specs that have weapons that are specifically designed around a particular specialization, to the point where they'd cause an issue if used outside of it. In fact, quite the opposite, many E-Specs literally don't use their associated weapon (Renegade doesn't use Shortbow, Glint doesn't use Shield, Chrono doesn't use shield, many Holo's don't use sword, some Deadeye's don't use Rifle, some Weaver's don't use Sword, Dragonhunter's don't use Longbow etc)

It's not even as though the weapons would suck outside of the spec either, given that not all E-Specs even have traits for their associated weapons (Tempest, Berserker, Soulbeast, Reaper, Dragonhunter, Scrapper, Holosmith, Chronomancer and Herald don't have traits for their weapons at all. While Weaver and Spellbreaker have really minor effects from their traits)

Also, unlike say, Utility skills which also have a similar point of not being directly tied to any particular E-Spec mechanic or E-Spec traits, additional Weapon availability doesn't cause any clutter, since irregardless of if you have access to them or not they show up in your weapon skills tab.

They wouldn't require much work (Currently) in order to make possible either. Simply add Adrenaline 2 and 3 steps to Warrior Dagger and add the relevant Stealth skills to Thief (Malicious Hook Strike). The only issue would be going forward, due to needing to factor in Dual Wield skills for Weaver.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:if balance problems were somehow ironed out then this is a good idea. game doesn't have enough options.

I think them being available in PvP for core is out of the question. Fractals and raids also will have balance issues, so probably not. But OW PvE, why not (as long as you unlocked the elite on that specific character)? I think open world could have all sorts of stuff, like elite weapons or skills for core, cross class weapons and utilities? Someone deals so much damage or spent 45 minutes soloing something that takes a group 10 minutes to solo. And? It is not like the reward is anything but that fun factor.

If I have creative control of GW2, this would be the first thing to add. Zero effort on devs part and tons of content for the players. Balanced for OW? Who cares. It is not OW is remotely difficult or the Risen will complain.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:if balance problems were somehow ironed out...

Good one.

I love the idea but I wouldn't expect it to happen.

@"Taril.8619" said:Honestly, just having the 30 HP into unlock the Specialization which allows usage of the weapon should unlock the weapon for core.

There aren't any specs that have weapons that are specifically designed around a particular specialization, to the point where they'd cause an issue if used outside of it. In fact, quite the opposite, many E-Specs literally don't use their associated weapon (Renegade doesn't use Shortbow, Glint doesn't use Shield, Chrono doesn't use shield, many Holo's don't use sword, some Deadeye's don't use Rifle, some Weaver's don't use Sword, Dragonhunter's don't use Longbow etc)

It's not even as though the weapons would suck outside of the spec either, given that not all E-Specs even have traits for their associated weapons (Tempest, Berserker, Soulbeast, Reaper, Dragonhunter, Scrapper, Holosmith, Chronomancer and Herald don't have traits for their weapons at all. While Weaver and Spellbreaker have really minor effects from their traits)

Also, unlike say, Utility skills which also have a similar point of not being directly tied to any particular E-Spec mechanic or E-Spec traits, additional Weapon availability doesn't cause any clutter, since irregardless of if you have access to them or not they show up in your weapon skills tab.

They wouldn't require much work (Currently) in order to make possible either. Simply add Adrenaline 2 and 3 steps to Warrior Dagger and add the relevant Stealth skills to Thief (Malicious Hook Strike). The only issue would be going forward, due to needing to factor in Dual Wield skills for Weaver.

Holosmith has a meaningful trait for their weapon. The grandmaster trait "Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit" adds another tier of the bonus effects on sword skills while having more than 100 heat. It improves the damage of the weapon quite alot.

And without the heat mechanic in general, Holosmith's sword definitely would suck. It wouldn't be worth taking.In general, I am against giving elite spec weapons to the core classes. These weapons are one of the features of elite specs and should stay that way.

grabs popcorn

Ah yes, gotta love the "I want every weapon in every spec crowd". Always good to make a note of the names and the arguments since most show how little they understand how difficult it is to balance such things. Not to mention the additional effort in actually implementing even MORE splits between game modes (if elite specialization weapons were only available baseline in say pve). Good old: I want, so it can and must be done.

Not getting into (or at all getting) the value of opportunity cost and choice as a design principle. Always assuming access to everything is the most fun.

Meanwhile, it's not even sure we will get additional elite specializations at all.

You go guys, these ideas never disappoint.

@"Kodama.6453" said:In general, I am against giving elite spec weapons to the core classes. These weapons are one of the features of elite specs and should stay that way.

Why though?

Given that there are a number of E-Specs that literally don't use their associated weapons, how much of a "Feature" of the E-Spec are the weapons?

What does it add to the game to have E-Specs weapons locked behind having the E-Spec equipped?

Especially given that the main reason to actually use an E-Spec, is the unique class mechanics that comes with it. With the Utilities and Weapon associated with it being an added bonus if they happen to work well with the build you're making.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Always good to make a note of the names and the arguments since most show how little they understand how difficult it is to balance such things.

Such as?

If you're so much more knowledgable about such things, surely you could offer some insight into the difficulty in balancing being able to use weapons that have already been balanced for the game (And can already be used with any Core specialization) being usable in pure Core builds or with an alternative E-Spec?

All I can think of is some fringe cases where a decent E-Spec weapon is usable by an existing strong build of a different E-Spec (I.e. Condi Chrono having access to Axe)

@Cyninja.2954 said:Not getting into (or at all getting) the value of opportunity cost and choice as a design principle. Always assuming access to everything is the most fun.

You still have opportunity cost and choice. Since you have to choose to use said weapon instead of another weapon.

As I said in response to the other person in this post, given that the primary reason to use an E-Spec is the unique class mechanics that come with them, not their Weapon or even utilities, what does it add to the game to have E-Spec weapon locked behind having the E-Spec equipped?

@Cyninja.2954 said:Meanwhile, it's not even sure we will get additional elite specializations at all.

Which actually means there's even LESS reason against allowing current E-Spec weapons usable without the spec equipped.

Given that the main reasons against allowing E-Spec weapons to become core are things like the extra work that would be required to make all future E-Spec weapons viable for things like Weaver and thus require Dual Wield skills to be created. Or potential issues with balance that would come from a future E-Spec weapon being excessively weird or tuned specifically to an E-Spec (Of which current E-Spec weapons are not. The closest that exists is Holo Sword that utilizes the Heat mechanic)

The thing is that elite specializations are meant to be better than core and as they state they are specializations and specialize in a role. Druid for healing, Soulbeast for damage etc. Let's say Ranger get 1 more and can also be tank.

Then they have them all covered I think and no need to play core ranger. People only play it because they don't have specializations.

@Taril.8619 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Always good to make a note of the names and the arguments since most show how little they understand how difficult it is to balance such things.

I could strait off the bat name at least 4-5 combinations of elite spec weapons which would be a total pain to balance when used with a different elite specialization based on their utility alone.

That was not what I was referring to primarily though. I was referring to the fact that a change like making it only pve viable (which was suggested as a way to avoid balance issues) would cause even more splits to development and work. Meanwhile engi and elementalist gained a second weapon set, which was clearly done to streamline equipment template development. Just as how the devs specifically mentioned the split balance of skills for example will only be in values, not functionality or effects, due to complexity.

The signs that the devs are trying to reduce workload are there, one just need to actually pay attention. Asking for MORE workload in this area is unrealistic.

@Taril.8619 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Not getting into (or at all getting) the value of opportunity cost and choice as a design principle. Always assuming access to everything is the most fun.

That is your interpretation (and a very limited at that) given how almost all elite specs make use of their unique weapons and utilities, it is very clear that these weapon are either:

• direct upgrades to core weapons,
• provide completely new abilities in tune with the elite spec
• the entire balance here is done as a package deal

You deciding that you only want elites for their mechanical changes is personal interpretation and not reflected in the complex synergies of elites, their weapons and their utilities.

@Taril.8619 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Meanwhile, it's not even sure we will get additional elite specializations at all.

No, it is exactly the reason to not ask for changes which increase workload.

If I personally had to chose between making weapons available to core or getting a third elite specialization, I'd go with a new elite specialization all the way and every type of implementation which supports or helps this outcome. Increasing already high workload is as such not my first choice, and I doubt it's the developers choice.

Hence why I am always amused by players who keep asking for this change. Btw, the demands for core availability of elite weapons go as far back as the release of HoT 4.5 years ago. It was neither changed with PoF's release, nor is there any reason to believe that this will ever get changed.

@Cyninja.2954 said:I could strait off the bat name at least 4-5 combinations of elite spec weapons which would be a total pain to balance when used with a different elite specialization based on their utility alone.

Such as?

@Cyninja.2954 said:That was not what I was referring to primarily though. I was referring to the fact that a change like making it only pve viable (which was suggested as a way to avoid balance issues) would cause even more splits to development and work.

Though, personally, I don't ask for such a thing.

I really don't see the need to specifically make it a PvE only thing. Especially given how many E-Spec weapons simply aren't used.

@Cyninja.2954 said:That is your interpretation (and a very limited at that) given how almost all elite specs make use of their unique weapons and utilities, it is very clear that these weapon are either:

They do not.

There are many Elementalist builds that use Staff as Tempest/Weaver or use D + F/D instead of Sword. As well as many Weaver builds that don't use Stances.

A lot of Engie builds still just use Rifle and don't use Exceed skills (With usually the 1 they use being Laser Disc but Exceed skills would also be less desirable without Holo due to heat bonuses)

Pretty much no Dragonhunter uses Longbow and builds tend to only use 1 Trap (Procession of Blades)

Most Chronomancers don't use Shield and typically only the Boon focused variety use Wells. Also, Mirage only uses their Deception skills due to the Mirage trait Self-Deception without it these builds wouldn't use them (Maybe Jaunt would still be used in PvE given that Mesmer Elites are underwhelming there)

Plenty of Reaper builds don't use Shouts, especially Raid builds which tend to favour the Minion skills and Well of Suffering. Though it's worth noting that GS and Torch are both used a lot in Necro mostly because their core weapons are pretty trash.

Few Ranger builds use Dagger MH even fewer use Stances or Glyphs.

Few Revenant's use Shortbow or Shield.

Few Thief's use either Physical or Cantrips.

I can't find any Spellbreaker builds that use even a single Meditation. While I can only find a few Berserker builds that use Torch.

If these things were "Direct upgrades to core" then you'd expect to see every build running their associated weapons and a full suite of their unique utilities.

If these things were in tune with the E-Spec, you'd see much higher representation of their utilities and likely a higher volume of a particular build type on a specific E-Spec (Especially a build type only created with an E-spec). But we see plenty of cases where an E-Spec opens something like a Support build but still has Power AND Condi DPS variants (I.e. Chrono, Herald, Renegade, Druid, Firebrand and Tempest)

If these things were balanced as a package deal, they every build would be running their associated weapons and full suite of unique utilities because they would be balanced around that. In reality, there are plenty of times where core weapons and utilities are used instead, which leads towards GW2's entire ethic of "Play how you want" which allows you to pick specs you want, weapons you want and use gear you want to try and make things work. That is until E-Specs introduced the whole "You MUST play with this E-Spec to use this weapon that isn't really tied to the E-Spec in any way"

It would be a different story if all E-Spec weapons were like Holo Sword, in that they utilized the E-Spec's unique mechanic in their functionality, which would make them more focused around being paired with said E-Spec. But this is not the case. All E-Spec weapons except Holo Sword have 0 interaction with their E-Spec (Before you argue Thief Rifle, Deadeye provides the Malice scaling mechanic to all weapons not just Rifle), with additionally only a few E-Specs even getting a Trait to buff the weapon.

But as it stands, the majority of E-Spec weapons are simply designed as regular weapons, which makes them feel like they could become core without much issue.

@Cyninja.2954 said:No, it is exactly the reason to not ask for changes which increase workload.

If I personally had to chose between making weapons available to core or getting a third elite specialization, I'd go with a new elite specialization all the way and every type of implementation which supports or helps this outcome. Increasing already high workload is as such not my first choice.

Increased workload?

Because of?

Adding 2 additional Adrenaline tiers to Warrior Dagger and putting Malice scaling on a Malicious Hook Strike?

Those would be the only additions required to allow current weapons to become core. (That and adjusting the weapon unlock part of the E-Spec to be global. Which is already partially the case, given that you can equip E-Spec weapons after unlocking them even without the E-Spec equipped and save them to loadouts. You just miss the ability to use them)

Unless you're still talking like EVERYONE who wants E-Spec weapons to be more available specifically wants some random PvE split that would require more work.