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Bring Infuse Light in line

Eugchriss.2046Eugchriss.2046 Member ✭✭✭

I think that this has always been (one of ) the problem with herald. When people talk about herald's sustain, they all refer to this specific skill. The ability to heal more than someone who is built for heal is beyond me. It was like having a better version of reflect which not only reflects all projectiles but all incoming damage. Just imagine how toxic that skill would be. But never mind...
The drawback of such skills like defiant stance is longer cd (30 secs) compared to other "regular" heals (20-25 secs). Rev is the only class that should not have access to this kind of skill because they already have 2 healing skills which in practice makes infuse light only have 15secs cd. This is why I suggest:
-either change the whole skill so that it doesn t convert all incoming damage in heal anymore
-either make it 45 secs cd to match up with other similar skills I mentioned above.

<134

Comments

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:
    That's not a counterplay. It's like saying the counterplay to torment/confusion is to not move/use skills.

    Who would have thought?

    You need to be very careful to notice the small icon under the player's name.

    Also the light emitting from them.

    I agree that it needs to be nerfed, maybe shorter cd shorter duration (endure pain treatment) or longer cd same duration (someone explained why this is spammy).

  • Eugchriss.2046Eugchriss.2046 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 19, 2020

    @Xca.9721 said:
    Nerfing Infuse Light would also nerf Power Shiros sustain by a lot, since that build already struggles with Conditions. You should rather take a look at the resistance uptime condi rev is able to put out.

    You do know that there are other builds which uses Power Shiro without Herald? You do know that those builds were/are viable?
    I personally think that this is the root of the problem with Condi herald. It doesn't need to invest in sustain therefore, it takes all the damaging traits/rune/amu knowing that infuse light will have their back.
    Try to play something else than herald without investing in salvation/retribution. Try to play something else than herald without using healing/toughness amu. You will see how hard this skill carries all herald's builds.

  • Xca.9721Xca.9721 Member ✭✭✭

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    @Xca.9721 said:
    Nerfing Infuse Light would also nerf Power Shiros sustain by a lot, since that build already struggles with Conditions. You should rather take a look at the resistance uptime condi rev is able to put out.

    You do know that there are other builds which uses Power Shiro without Herald? You do know that those builds were/are viable?
    I personally think that this is the root of the problem with Condi herald. It doesn't need to invest in sustain therefore, it takes all the damaging traits/rune/amu knowing that infuse light will have their back.
    Try to play something else than herald without investing in salvation/retribution. Try to play something else than herald without using healing/toughness amu. You will see how hard this skill carries all herald's builds.

    "It doesn't need to invest in sustain" yet most condi revs use resistance runes/resistance traits in corruption traitline, some even use retribution. Why is that? Because Rev in general is weak to CC after the patch. Infuse Light doesn´t save you from getting Chain CCd to death.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 19, 2020

    @Xca.9721 said:
    "It doesn't need to invest in sustain" yet most condi revs use resistance runes/resistance traits in corruption traitline, some even use retribution. Why is that? Because Rev in general is weak to CC after the patch. Infuse Light doesn´t save you from getting Chain CCd to death.

    Herald Conditions that used Retribution instead of Invocation in the past were extremely vulnerable to CC, today ALL form of Revenants have the same weakness because Empty Vessel is gone, this is diversity taking place and that's nothing overpowered about those decisions because everything that you mention was nerfed and you're not taking it into account at all.

    For an universal statement, everyone is even to CC sustain if you are in the context of the patch to which Revenant is still the strongest against it because not facerolling skills = easy stunbreak , after that;

    • Steadfast Rejuvenation had it's heal per upkeep nerf.
    • Unwavering Avoidance doesn't give stability anymore.
    • Resistance Uptime was nerfed with the Mallyx nerfs because skills cannot be used at the same consistency, do the math. Max upkeep = 25 % Energy in 5 seconds which means when you're at 0% you still can't grasp for the ICD of Demonic Defiance.

    All I can say is stop asking for the wrong nerfs before you kill this class diversity. OP has the right concept in mind but the wrong ideas on the approach.

    Infuse Light saves you from any pressure during 3 seconds, recovering from it is an easy feat with shield or having the next legend ready/Facet of Chaos to mitigate the damage afterwards. Should Infuse Light duration be adjust to 2 seconds and the start heal buffed accordingly to about 3.5k, not the cooldown or effect.

  • Xca.9721Xca.9721 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 19, 2020

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Xca.9721 said:
    "It doesn't need to invest in sustain" yet most condi revs use resistance runes/resistance traits in corruption traitline, some even use retribution. Why is that? Because Rev in general is weak to CC after the patch. Infuse Light doesn´t save you from getting Chain CCd to death.

    Herald Conditions that used Retribution instead of Invocation in the past were extremely vulnerable to CC, today ALL form of Revenants have the same weakness because Empty Vessel is gone, this is diversity taking place and that's nothing overpowered about those decisions because everything that you mention was nerfed and you're not taking it into account at all.

    For an universal statement, everyone is even to CC sustain if you are in the context of the patch to which Revenant is still the strongest against it because not facerolling skills = easy stunbreak , after that;

    • Steadfast Rejuvenation had it's heal per upkeep nerf.
    • Unwavering Avoidance doesn't give stability anymore.
    • Resistance Uptime was nerfed with the Mallyx nerfs because skills cannot be used at the same consistency, do the math. Max upkeep = 25 % Energy in 5 seconds which means when you're at 0% you still can't grasp for the ICD of Demonic Defiance.

    All I can say is stop asking for the wrong nerfs before you kill this class diversity. OP has the right concept in mind but the wrong ideas on the approach.

    Infuse Light saves you from any pressure during 3 seconds, recovering from it is an easy feat with shield or having the next legend ready/Facet of Chaos to mitigate the damage afterwards. Should Infuse Light duration be adjust to 2 seconds and the start heal buffed accordingly to about 3.5k, not the cooldown or effect.

    I didn´t mention anything specific that was nerfed, or do you mean the comment before mine? And I said that Rev in general is weak to CC (well, unless you take Jalis), not just Condi Rev.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 19, 2020

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    @NorthernRedStar.3054 said:
    It has counterplay, just don't attack. If that's something you're unable to do, well …
    I agree, though, rev's currently too tanky for the amount of damage they're able to dish out. B-BUT RANGER!!!

    That's not a counterplay. It's like saying the counterplay to torment/confusion is to not move/use skills.
    You need to be very careful to notice the small icon under the player's name. And Still, in more than 1v1 scenario, with all the aoe, the pets, etc.. going around this "counterplay" doesn't work.
    Anyways, all I want is a 15 secs cd increase so that all the "rev's main" aka herald's player will think twice before using it.

    Infuse Light is super easy to bait and to predict. You can still hard cc while it's active because this does not deal damage anymore.

    Revenant's issues have never been based on Infuse Light (well at least since it has a cast time). In Power Shiro days it was the burst rotation while the revenant was basically immune to damage itself and now it's the torment stacking which might be a bit too good against targets that don't run cleansing sigil.

  • Grimjack.8130Grimjack.8130 Member ✭✭✭

    Infuse Light is not an issue in of its self, but no good player will ever decide to target a Herald when they have their Glint Elite up over a different target; I very much dislike that and I'd go so far as to personally say its an issue.

    I'm a well known nobody.
    Former member of [MnF], [DnT], [dP], and [Hg]. Winner of the 2018 ERP Tournament.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's definitely a problem and I don't think there's any real obvious best way to fix it. Especially since in many ways Infuse Light being as strong as it is feels like its very much the glue that holds the entire revenant profession together.

    Damage reversal is definitely extremely strong. Effectively a 3 second invulnerability. And theoretically on the current Mallyx Herald Build the skill can theoretically provide 913 Healing Per Second which is MASSIVE considering the average healing skill typically provides 250 healing per second when used off cooldown.

    While you can say "It's fine just stow weapons" like sure that's one counter play if you're power. But in ranked you can't necessarily coordinate with teammates to stop attacking, especially if they're trading blows with someone else and the rev can simply absorb the cleave, or run into AoEs someone else popped. And if you're condi you can't stop your own condis. And in order to threaten a Herald on a condition build, you basically have to load him down with enough conditions to heal him to full when he pops it. As condi you've always had to operate on the notion that you just have to dump into the Infuse Light and hope you can kill him quickly enough afterwords before Infuse Light is off cooldown, which was fairly reasonable before the mega balance patch back when everyone was doing 2x as much damage as they are but definitely feels less so now.

    Overall I think I'd like to see Facet of Light become and instant cast, and Infuse Light get a 0.5 to 0.75s cast time. I think if anything should really be nerfed about this skill it's how effectively unstoppable it is.

    Readying Facet of Light has a 0.25 second cast time. This means that it's so fast that the revenant themselves at 70 ping will struggle to even be able to cancel cast their own Facet of Light if they try to. As a player you have almost no capacity to see, interpret, react, and interrupt the Facet heal before it's readied once you take ping into account. And the Facet is almost always popped long before the pivotal part of the fight where they're going to try to heal. You basically can't stop it. And even if you can, readying the Facet is done far, earlier than when the healing is typically needed so even if you're a reaction time god and interrupt it once most builds aren't going to be able to interrupt it over and over again and prevent it from ever being readied across a 20-30s fight. I think the skills would have a lot more counter play if readying the Facet was instant, but going into damage reversal has a cast time comparable with other healing skills so that smart reactive players who have saved cool downs specifically to interrupt the healing skill can actually do so.

    I don't mind the damage reversal aspect of the skill I just dislike the unstoppable nature of it.

  • Eugchriss.2046Eugchriss.2046 Member ✭✭✭

    @Xca.9721 said:

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    @Xca.9721 said:
    Nerfing Infuse Light would also nerf Power Shiros sustain by a lot, since that build already struggles with Conditions. You should rather take a look at the resistance uptime condi rev is able to put out.

    You do know that there are other builds which uses Power Shiro without Herald? You do know that those builds were/are viable?
    I personally think that this is the root of the problem with Condi herald. It doesn't need to invest in sustain therefore, it takes all the damaging traits/rune/amu knowing that infuse light will have their back.
    Try to play something else than herald without investing in salvation/retribution. Try to play something else than herald without using healing/toughness amu. You will see how hard this skill carries all herald's builds.

    "It doesn't need to invest in sustain" yet most condi revs use resistance runes/resistance traits in corruption traitline, some even use retribution. Why is that? Because Rev in general is weak to CC after the patch. Infuse Light doesn´t save you from getting Chain CCd to death.

    If you really think that condi herald takes corruption for resistances/self sustain trait then you re fooling yourself. They would have taken that too after POF release when scourge and mirage were everywhere. But nope.
    Resistance doesn t protect from CC and there is no more stab in retribution so your whole post doesn t make any sense. Or it's just I who got the whole thing wrong.

  • Eugchriss.2046Eugchriss.2046 Member ✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    @NorthernRedStar.3054 said:
    It has counterplay, just don't attack. If that's something you're unable to do, well …
    I agree, though, rev's currently too tanky for the amount of damage they're able to dish out. B-BUT RANGER!!!

    That's not a counterplay. It's like saying the counterplay to torment/confusion is to not move/use skills.
    You need to be very careful to notice the small icon under the player's name. And Still, in more than 1v1 scenario, with all the aoe, the pets, etc.. going around this "counterplay" doesn't work.
    Anyways, all I want is a 15 secs cd increase so that all the "rev's main" aka herald's player will think twice before using it.

    Infuse Light is super easy to bait and to predict. You can still hard cc while it's active because this does not deal damage anymore.

    Revenant's issues have never been based on Infuse Light (well at least since it has a cast time). In Power Shiro days it was the burst rotation while the revenant was basically immune to damage itself and now it's the torment stacking which might be a bit too good against targets that don't run cleansing sigil.

    The burst wasn t the issue. It was the consequence. You can fully heal without investing in any trait or any stat, why the kitten would you still invest in sustain? This issue still persists on the current condi herald.
    And how exactly was it immune to damage if it wasn't for infuse light?

  • Xca.9721Xca.9721 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 19, 2020

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    @Xca.9721 said:

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    @Xca.9721 said:
    Nerfing Infuse Light would also nerf Power Shiros sustain by a lot, since that build already struggles with Conditions. You should rather take a look at the resistance uptime condi rev is able to put out.

    You do know that there are other builds which uses Power Shiro without Herald? You do know that those builds were/are viable?
    I personally think that this is the root of the problem with Condi herald. It doesn't need to invest in sustain therefore, it takes all the damaging traits/rune/amu knowing that infuse light will have their back.
    Try to play something else than herald without investing in salvation/retribution. Try to play something else than herald without using healing/toughness amu. You will see how hard this skill carries all herald's builds.

    "It doesn't need to invest in sustain" yet most condi revs use resistance runes/resistance traits in corruption traitline, some even use retribution. Why is that? Because Rev in general is weak to CC after the patch. Infuse Light doesn´t save you from getting Chain CCd to death.

    If you really think that condi herald takes corruption for resistances/self sustain trait then you re fooling yourself. They would have taken that too after POF release when scourge and mirage were everywhere. But nope.
    Resistance doesn t protect from CC and there is no more stab in retribution so your whole post doesn t make any sense. Or it's just I who got the whole thing wrong.

    What I meant with this is that many condi Revs choose Demonic Defiance instead of Acolyte of Torment and Fiendish Tenacity over the more offensive trait lines. They choose resistance over more damage output (sustain over damage). You said that Condi Heralds use all the damaging traits/runes because they don´t need to invest in sustain due to Infuse Light, which is not true.

  • Neil.3825Neil.3825 Member ✭✭

    @NorthernRedStar.3054 said:
    It has counterplay, just don't attack. If that's something you're unable to do, well …

    Don't work with condi.

  • @Neil.3825 said:

    @NorthernRedStar.3054 said:
    It has counterplay, just don't attack. If that's something you're unable to do, well …

    Don't work with condi.

    You mean you unloaded all your condi package in one go, and got punished?

    Oh sweet kitten, how to work that out....

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:
    Wow....just WOW! Never thought we'd come to this ----as many have already said, Infuse Light is one of the easiest skill to counter play by .....NOT attacking. It's also so easy to see when a Herald uses it - besides the icon, and the blue aura, you should try and pay attention to those green floating animations when you are hitting a Herald under IL effect. Please, stop asking for more nerfs and try to improve your overall awareness instead.

    Condi, ground effects, cleave. When should we stop using those exactly? I can certainly stop directly attacking the rev. But how do you stop all that other stuff?

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 19, 2020

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:
    And how exactly was it immune to damage if it wasn't for infuse light?

    Because the burst rotation was a chain of something like: teleport > hard cc + damage > block that blinds > sword attack that evades > sword attack that chills > disengage that evades > kite > repeat

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:
    Wow....just WOW! Never thought we'd come to this ----as many have already said, Infuse Light is one of the easiest skill to counter play by .....NOT attacking. It's also so easy to see when a Herald uses it - besides the icon, and the blue aura, you should try and pay attention to those green floating animations when you are hitting a Herald under IL effect. Please, stop asking for more nerfs and try to improve your overall awareness instead.

    Condi, ground effects, cleave. When should we stop using those exactly? I can certainly stop directly attacking the rev. But how do you stop all that other stuff?

    Deal with it? Predict the opponent action? Strategize? It isn't rocket science. And to think of it ---- you are basically asking to nerf into oblivion the only viable heal skill that Herald has.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236
    they could make infuse reduce condi damage taken by 50-75%.
    having full hp heal every 30s that cant be stopped that also acts as 3s of invulnerability is a middle finger to any and all condi builds.
    It works fine against power, you attack me, you kitten up and I get healed.
    But if you eat 10k condi you can just chew it like a snack for big heals

  • Neil.3825Neil.3825 Member ✭✭

    @NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

    @Neil.3825 said:

    @NorthernRedStar.3054 said:
    It has counterplay, just don't attack. If that's something you're unable to do, well …

    Don't work with condi.

    You mean you unloaded all your condi package in one go, and got punished?

    Oh sweet kitten, how to work that out....

    Just pointing a fact, if you're a condi build infuse light is very powerful.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:
    Wow....just WOW! Never thought we'd come to this ----as many have already said, Infuse Light is one of the easiest skill to counter play by .....NOT attacking. It's also so easy to see when a Herald uses it - besides the icon, and the blue aura, you should try and pay attention to those green floating animations when you are hitting a Herald under IL effect. Please, stop asking for more nerfs and try to improve your overall awareness instead.

    Condi, ground effects, cleave. When should we stop using those exactly? I can certainly stop directly attacking the rev. But how do you stop all that other stuff?

    Deal with it? Predict the opponent action? Strategize? It isn't rocket science. And to think of it ---- you are basically asking to nerf into oblivion the only viable heal skill that Herald has.

    I didn't propose anything. I merely observe that your advice avoids addressing the issues people have mentioned repeatedly in this thread. Why is that? Well, common sense suggests you'd rather not give up an ability that is too much of a good thing, but you don't really have a good argument to make in its defense.

  • szeng.1267szeng.1267 Member ✭✭

    Maybe the problem isn't infuse light being too good but conditions are ticking for too high. Conditions shouldn't be ticking for 3-4k in the first place.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @szeng.1267 said:
    Maybe the problem isn't infuse light being too good but conditions are ticking for too high. Conditions shouldn't be ticking for 3-4k in the first place.

    depends how they are applied, if guard sneezes and you eat 30k burn thats kitten, but if someone lands 4-5 abilities they you 100% should take alot of damage.
    realism of the situation is that infuse is AT LEAST healing for 50% hp against condi builds while acting as 3s invlunerability on top

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Shao.7236
    they could make infuse reduce condi damage taken by 50-75%.
    having full hp heal every 30s that cant be stopped that also acts as 3s of invulnerability is a middle finger to any and all condi builds.
    It works fine against power, you attack me, you kitten up and I get healed.
    But if you eat 10k condi you can just chew it like a snack for big heals

    I thought about that, but I am honestly more in favor of making it 2 seconds. It just seems clunky to have the mechanic be given this exception when with 2 seconds that would limit the healing down right to bursts and reward good plays. The way the skill works is asking for timing while also limiting it's stupid potential, the defensive rotation is still doable in 2 seconds as well the shield being a good pair.

    Most players don't know, but nothing forces them to stick on Glint once the skill is used, this can be used then legend swap for bait or facetank rush with no risk as it heals. I can hear all the screams and complains in the back of my head but I don't care, all Revenant heals aside Ventari heal for about the average of Soothing Stone unless doing the right plays to gain extra benefits, here with Infuse Light the right plays are not really difficult and can easily give a full heal. Getting 6k in the standard of Revenant is really good and should players start realizing that since they've been spoiled for a while with this full heal aspect of it.

  • Avatar.3568Avatar.3568 Member ✭✭✭

    Just stop dmg

  • szeng.1267szeng.1267 Member ✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @szeng.1267 said:
    Maybe the problem isn't infuse light being too good but conditions are ticking for too high. Conditions shouldn't be ticking for 3-4k in the first place.

    depends how they are applied, if guard sneezes and you eat 30k burn thats kitten, but if someone lands 4-5 abilities they you 100% should take alot of damage.
    realism of the situation is that infuse is AT LEAST healing for 50% hp against condi builds while acting as 3s invlunerability on top

    So conditions doing AT LEAST 50% hp (ie ~10k) dmg in 3 seconds is considered the low end whats the high end?

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 19, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Shao.7236
    they could make infuse reduce condi damage taken by 50-75%.
    having full hp heal every 30s that cant be stopped that also acts as 3s of invulnerability is a middle finger to any and all condi builds.
    It works fine against power, you attack me, you kitten up and I get healed.
    But if you eat 10k condi you can just chew it like a snack for big heals

    You might have missed that Herald is weak at cleansing conditions (esp. in PvP where cleansing sigil doesn't do much) and that's why such thing like Infused Light exists to be at least able to negate one condi burst every 30 seconds.

    You are asking to nerf a mechanic that exists for a purpose you don't seem to understand.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @szeng.1267 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @szeng.1267 said:
    Maybe the problem isn't infuse light being too good but conditions are ticking for too high. Conditions shouldn't be ticking for 3-4k in the first place.

    depends how they are applied, if guard sneezes and you eat 30k burn thats kitten, but if someone lands 4-5 abilities they you 100% should take alot of damage.
    realism of the situation is that infuse is AT LEAST healing for 50% hp against condi builds while acting as 3s invlunerability on top

    So conditions doing AT LEAST 50% hp (ie ~10k) dmg in 3 seconds is considered the low end whats the high end?

    there is no high end.
    you take as much as you let your enemies to.
    what is the high end of power damage? in 3s?
    mault for 15k? WI for 20k, still not 3s, hmmm bird for 10k, some longbow for 5-10k is it 3s yet?
    if you eat the condi like bonzoo then you get melted, only farters like guard need to be nerfed becouse they touch you and you insta melt with 20k burns

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Shao.7236
    they could make infuse reduce condi damage taken by 50-75%.
    having full hp heal every 30s that cant be stopped that also acts as 3s of invulnerability is a middle finger to any and all condi builds.
    It works fine against power, you attack me, you kitten up and I get healed.
    But if you eat 10k condi you can just chew it like a snack for big heals

    You might have missed that Herald is weak at cleansing conditions (esp. in PvP where cleansing sigil doesn't do much) and that's why such thing like Infused Light exists to be at least able to negate one condi burst every 30 seconds.

    You are asking to nerf a mechanic that exists for a purpose you don't seem to understand.

    they are not negating condi bursts, they are negating condi bursts, while healing to full while remaining invlunerable at the same time.
    there used to be counter, filling them with condis during infuse, now its gone becouse all condi builds are hybrids anyways, and if you do that you do kitten for damage becouse no expertise kekW.
    whenever anything is brought up with mesmer its shot down as a counter, whelp here you go lads
    mb rev should be countered by condis, you want to be strong against condi go core and spam resist, otherwise die burning.

  • szeng.1267szeng.1267 Member ✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @szeng.1267 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @szeng.1267 said:
    Maybe the problem isn't infuse light being too good but conditions are ticking for too high. Conditions shouldn't be ticking for 3-4k in the first place.

    depends how they are applied, if guard sneezes and you eat 30k burn thats kitten, but if someone lands 4-5 abilities they you 100% should take alot of damage.
    realism of the situation is that infuse is AT LEAST healing for 50% hp against condi builds while acting as 3s invlunerability on top

    So conditions doing AT LEAST 50% hp (ie ~10k) dmg in 3 seconds is considered the low end whats the high end?

    there is no high end.
    you take as much as you let your enemies to.
    what is the high end of power damage? in 3s?
    mault for 15k? WI for 20k, still not 3s, hmmm bird for 10k, some longbow for 5-10k is it 3s yet?
    if you eat the condi like bonzoo then you get melted, only farters like guard need to be nerfed becouse they touch you and you insta melt with 20k burns

    All the outlier power skills need to be nerfed. Don't use outlier power skills to justify over performing condition dmg.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @szeng.1267 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @szeng.1267 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @szeng.1267 said:
    Maybe the problem isn't infuse light being too good but conditions are ticking for too high. Conditions shouldn't be ticking for 3-4k in the first place.

    depends how they are applied, if guard sneezes and you eat 30k burn thats kitten, but if someone lands 4-5 abilities they you 100% should take alot of damage.
    realism of the situation is that infuse is AT LEAST healing for 50% hp against condi builds while acting as 3s invlunerability on top

    So conditions doing AT LEAST 50% hp (ie ~10k) dmg in 3 seconds is considered the low end whats the high end?

    there is no high end.
    you take as much as you let your enemies to.
    what is the high end of power damage? in 3s?
    mault for 15k? WI for 20k, still not 3s, hmmm bird for 10k, some longbow for 5-10k is it 3s yet?
    if you eat the condi like bonzoo then you get melted, only farters like guard need to be nerfed becouse they touch you and you insta melt with 20k burns

    All the outlier power skills need to be nerfed. Don't use outlier power skills to justify over performing condition dmg.

    XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
    then what the heck do you use?
    you compare the best to the best

  • Infuse Light isn't an issue. As others have mentioned it's easily counterplayed; I've successfully done it against tons of the revenants I've fought this mini-season. Look for the animation, look for the green numbers, stop damaging. Also I play condi and don't think it's an issue, sooooo.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    All we get is 1v1 perspectives, this won't get anywhere. The wrong things will likely get nerfed with the average opinion of condition damage. Class already lost half of it's damage and there's still complains.

    It's an obvious fact that the ability to full heal as is for Herald is unhealthy and no one wants to accept it, they really take it for granted. It's a real thing that Herald has little to invest into because the healing is that strong, it's not like Warrior where it's /all/ they got in the following. They can't fall back on anything else once it's done, Herald can because of all that slack nobody wants to admit of. I've played what people have for about a year consecutively before anyone ever considered it then switching back to core, the build was always like that until the recent nerfs, it was quite shocking that people said whenever I was winning that my build was trash and now it's considered super powerful when nothing had really change, the irony. Just stupid pairs with the class like FB or anything overly oppressive that holds the Herald leash really makes it look overpowered.

    Before even touching Infuse Light, I would properly tweak Mallyx Facet and see how it turns out for the careless players. Gone with the stuff that's not evadable. It's too much.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    IL is one of the few skills that punish braindead spam. Be it the herald itself or the enemy, IL can do anything from a 100% heal to basicly nothing. When playing power, the counter is just "don't attack for 3 seconds". If you can't do that, you deserve to lose. When playing condi, do half-kittened bursts to bait IL out, then go for a proper condibomb.
    The skill is perfectly fine.

    By that logic, what if we made every single healing skill operate like Infuse Light? what if every single skill on every class was a full on damage reversal? It's "fair" right.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    IL is one of the few skills that punish braindead spam. Be it the herald itself or the enemy, IL can do anything from a 100% heal to basicly nothing. When playing power, the counter is just "don't attack for 3 seconds". If you can't do that, you deserve to lose. When playing condi, do half-kittened bursts to bait IL out, then go for a proper condibomb.
    The skill is perfectly fine.

    By that logic, what if we made every single healing skill operate like Infuse Light? what if every single skill on every class was a full on damage reversal? It's "fair" right.

    tbh I always found this ability kitten, I found it fine for berserk becouse it fits thematically, on rev with 2! healing skills its just broken.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2020

    Make their heal share the same cd, so no more 2 heals. They were left alone when all others got nurfd.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2020

    On a side note I find pretty funny that many people here come saying :
    "Just don't attack during infuse light" wherease they spam nerf post on confusion.
    Seems it's just a : "L2P when fighting me but your mechanics is op, nerf it ! ". (The funniest part is when they can actually rollface under confusion while on infuse light haha, seems bad faith has no limit.)
    Thanks for this giggles.

  • Neil.3825Neil.3825 Member ✭✭
    edited March 20, 2020

    IMO the only prob with this skill is the cast time. The cast time should be on infuse light and not on facet of light. Because actually infuse light works as some sort of break stun and glint already has one (and not the weakest one of rev's kit).

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    IL is one of the few skills that punish braindead spam. Be it the herald itself or the enemy, IL can do anything from a 100% heal to basicly nothing. When playing power, the counter is just "don't attack for 3 seconds". If you can't do that, you deserve to lose. When playing condi, do half-kittened bursts to bait IL out, then go for a proper condibomb.
    The skill is perfectly fine.

    By that logic, what if we made every single healing skill operate like Infuse Light? what if every single skill on every class was a full on damage reversal? It's "fair" right.

    If we made every healskill the exact same, that would bring this game closer to perfect balance. Would also be very boring. What point are you trying to make?

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    tbh I always found this ability kitten, I found it fine for berserk becouse it fits thematically, on rev with 2! healing skills its just broken.

    I find it hilarious how many people think this is broken. Not hitting enemies at key times is part of this game. Fullcounter, Bandit's Defense, Counterattack etc... IL is just a healskill version of this skill type. Especially with the nerfs to shiroglints evasiveness, IL is just not a balance problem.

  • Fix Mallyx facet being undodgable and unblockable before you even consider touching Infuse Light. Shiro facet got changed fairly quickly after the patch because people actually played power rev and no one played condi rev at the time. Now that the majority of builds played are condi and condi rev is beyond meta, fix the facet.

    Infuse Light doesn't save you from being CC spammed to death, it doesn't prevent your opponents from stacking more conditions during its duration to kill you after the 3 seconds. Just because your thief decided to steal in to attack while there's the most obvious animation and tooltip that the revenant is healing doesn't mean it's an inherently broken skill.

    You want to make power herald even worse in a meta where condi is already running rampant? Condi herald is inherently too tanky for the amount of damage it can do., no reason to nerf power further when it has already lost 2/3 of its stunbreak power, might stacking ability, and a heck of a lot of damage. You want to take the one defense power herald has against condi in PvP? Focus on Mallyx facet, if only for the fact that it's the one way that you can nerf condi herald directly without nerfing power herald or condi base rev.

    good lord i am absolute trash at this video game

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2020

    Just make the Poison condition reduce its duration by 33%; the counter to it should be the same as any other heal skill.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay | Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest(PvE), Terakura/Spellbreaker & Kitty Koume/Reaper(WvW) | ♀♥♀

  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Just make the Poison condition reduce its duration by 33%; the counter to it should be the same as any other heal skill.

    Poison already reduces the heal by 33%, it is just as countered by poison as most other heals.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Just make the Poison condition reduce its duration by 33%; the counter to it should be the same as any other heal skill.

    Poison already reduces the heal by 33%, it is just as countered by poison as most other heals.

    Except for the fact that Poison is the highest damaging condition next to Burning, and any stacks of Poison on the Revenant will also be healing them, thus negating the penalty as people pointed out above in several posts regarding conditions.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay | Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest(PvE), Terakura/Spellbreaker & Kitty Koume/Reaper(WvW) | ♀♥♀

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Renegade is busted needs nerfs

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 21, 2020

    @NorthernRedStar.3054 said:
    It has counterplay, just don't attack. If that's something you're unable to do, well …
    I agree, though, rev's currently too tanky for the amount of damage they're able to dish out. B-BUT RANGER!!!

    "JUST DON'T ATTACK, BRO" is not counterplay considering that the Revenant can still take any sort of action during that window. Considering how Healing Skills are designed to sustain combat duration, it's important to compare them within that framework. Looking at all Healing Skills in the game, one is hard pressed to find one which does as much work as Infuse Light: effectively instant cast, a baseline healing amount, perfectly negates all incoming damage and also just adds that damage to the user's healthpool as healing, has a fixed duration which cannot be influenced; it more or less throws every meta mechanic into one skill. Infuse Light isn't so much a Healing Skill as it is a combat rotation skill: people use it to effortlessly keep pressure on when opponents have to rely on their own Healing Skills in order to sustain combat duration (and heaven forbid you're in a teamfight when the enemy Revenant is suddenly no longer a viable focus target because they pressed a button; that can screw up the entire teamfight dynamic). The only other Healing Skill that comes remotely close to being as powerful as Infuse Light is Defiant Stance, and that skill has two large downsides in comparison: it has a longer baseline cooldown, and it has a massive opportunity cost associated with it considering that, in order to take it, one has to give up "hahaha, I'm regenerating health forever now" which nobody would do.

    The only reason why Infuse Light or Revenant isn't seen as such an egregiously oppressive issue anymore is because their burst output was cleaved into pieces with the global damage nerf. However, considering that Infuse Light still remains the fulcrum upon which the Revenant's PvP viability swings, and also considering how the only thing which would probably tip Revenant back into S-tier would just be a braindead damage buff, it really goes to show just how hard-carried the entire class is by a single, baked-in Healing Skill. If Revenant wasn't "Thief with some cooldowns but also Defiant Stance" but instead just "Thief with some cooldowns," it would be as worthless in gameplay practice as it already is as a thematic class in GW2. Infuse Light is a braindead, garbage skill which has no right to exist, but if you cull it, you also utterly kill the Revenant. That said, the Revenant never deserved to exist in the first place, so it's more or less all up in the air lmao.