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Bring Infuse Light in line

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  • szeng.1267szeng.1267 Member ✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @szeng.1267 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    if you cant use IL to "block" big hits with its "long" 1/4s cast time its l2p issue.
    and I already told you why defiant stance has issues, its the ONLY heal warrior has, if warrior missplays it, he can not heal for 30s.
    rev still has daggers.
    As for mending it has synergy with warrior and low cooldown, you can run cleansing sigil + swap cleansing trait, and preety much swap + heal to get 5 cleanses off ( full cleanse most of the time ) every 20s

    If you cant stow weapon to cancel your big hits that's also a l2p issue. Funny how that works. Or are you also going to defend big hits with such low cast time that you can't cancel it once casted?

    Daggers is not a reliable heal to fall back on. As it can be reflected, blocked, or dodged.

    Power revs is the only class with 2 heals yet both the heals can be out played to essentially only heal for 1.8k each and in terms of daggers it can heal the enemy and dmg the rev. You know kinda like how IL works but in reserve and much worse as you are healing the enemy and dmging yourself with your own heal skill. But of course this is probably fine for you.

    As I said before if you want to remove the counter play to IL then turn it into a decent flat heal and also remove the counters to daggers.

    enchanted daggers can be reflected becouse otherwise it would be broken heal too ?
    1/2s cast time 6k+ heal that also deals damage, ofc cant be interrupted becouse 1/2 cast time. while everyone else has 3/4 or 1s
    And nobody will cancel cast times against IL, becouse you are not forced to use it, you actively lose damage every times you stow anyway, if you keep stowing then the fact you have IL alone generates value, without even using it. Unless you know for a FACT someone is going to use IL stowing is a bad thing to do, there are times where it will come into play but its not something that will happen much. and even if it does its 1v1 only.
    AT WORST Il is 1,8k heal with 3s invulnerability.
    As for enchanting daggers, hmm how about dont use it when enemy has reflects? Its like one of the only skills that can be reflected, just use it when you can.
    Its not like condi mes that gets 90% of skills reflected back.
    Who can actually reflect it? Guard in the right tome -> use when they are on different one or cd.
    Thief with daggerstorm -> dont attack daggerstorming thief?
    Shield block from warrior -> dont attack shieldblocking warrior?
    What else is there? lol. Proj block is the most people can do, and its ele aoe wind and smoke from thief.

    Ya no, enchanted daggers can be changed to give a flat 4.5k heal at beginning instead of having to actually required taking the risk of hitting the enemy with each dagger to work. Also remove the projectile property so it can still be blocked and evaded but not reflected to dmg yourself with your own heal skill. Or is 4.5k too much to ask since you know full well that most daggers actually don't land and 4.5k is a buff to its so called 6k heal. Also it was you that bought up revs has a reliable heal to fall back on. Now you are trying to defend why it's not reliable.

    And even if you are right,which you are not, how much dmg can these so called big hits do after the patch anyways?

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @szeng.1267 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @szeng.1267 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    if you cant use IL to "block" big hits with its "long" 1/4s cast time its l2p issue.
    and I already told you why defiant stance has issues, its the ONLY heal warrior has, if warrior missplays it, he can not heal for 30s.
    rev still has daggers.
    As for mending it has synergy with warrior and low cooldown, you can run cleansing sigil + swap cleansing trait, and preety much swap + heal to get 5 cleanses off ( full cleanse most of the time ) every 20s

    If you cant stow weapon to cancel your big hits that's also a l2p issue. Funny how that works. Or are you also going to defend big hits with such low cast time that you can't cancel it once casted?

    Daggers is not a reliable heal to fall back on. As it can be reflected, blocked, or dodged.

    Power revs is the only class with 2 heals yet both the heals can be out played to essentially only heal for 1.8k each and in terms of daggers it can heal the enemy and dmg the rev. You know kinda like how IL works but in reserve and much worse as you are healing the enemy and dmging yourself with your own heal skill. But of course this is probably fine for you.

    As I said before if you want to remove the counter play to IL then turn it into a decent flat heal and also remove the counters to daggers.

    enchanted daggers can be reflected becouse otherwise it would be broken heal too ?
    1/2s cast time 6k+ heal that also deals damage, ofc cant be interrupted becouse 1/2 cast time. while everyone else has 3/4 or 1s
    And nobody will cancel cast times against IL, becouse you are not forced to use it, you actively lose damage every times you stow anyway, if you keep stowing then the fact you have IL alone generates value, without even using it. Unless you know for a FACT someone is going to use IL stowing is a bad thing to do, there are times where it will come into play but its not something that will happen much. and even if it does its 1v1 only.
    AT WORST Il is 1,8k heal with 3s invulnerability.
    As for enchanting daggers, hmm how about dont use it when enemy has reflects? Its like one of the only skills that can be reflected, just use it when you can.
    Its not like condi mes that gets 90% of skills reflected back.
    Who can actually reflect it? Guard in the right tome -> use when they are on different one or cd.
    Thief with daggerstorm -> dont attack daggerstorming thief?
    Shield block from warrior -> dont attack shieldblocking warrior?
    What else is there? lol. Proj block is the most people can do, and its ele aoe wind and smoke from thief.

    Ya no, enchanted daggers can be changed to give a flat 4.5k heal at beginning instead of having to actually required taking the risk of hitting the enemy with each dagger to work. Also remove the projectile property so it can still be blocked and evaded but not reflected to dmg yourself with your own heal skill. Or is 4.5k too much to ask since you know full well that most daggers actually don't land and 4.5k is a buff to its so called 6k heal. Also it was you that bought up revs has a reliable heal to fall back on. Now you are trying to defend why it's not reliable.

    And even if you are right,which you are not, how much dmg can these so called big hits do after the patch anyways?

    propably difference of perspective here.
    this "kitten daggers" take 15-20% of mesmers HP if all land.
    you guys are too used to chunking people for 1/2 HP while remaining impossible to kill.
    Now its time to count the pennies of small hits and add them to big total instead of having everything burst people down.

  • szeng.1267szeng.1267 Member ✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @szeng.1267 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @szeng.1267 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    if you cant use IL to "block" big hits with its "long" 1/4s cast time its l2p issue.
    and I already told you why defiant stance has issues, its the ONLY heal warrior has, if warrior missplays it, he can not heal for 30s.
    rev still has daggers.
    As for mending it has synergy with warrior and low cooldown, you can run cleansing sigil + swap cleansing trait, and preety much swap + heal to get 5 cleanses off ( full cleanse most of the time ) every 20s

    If you cant stow weapon to cancel your big hits that's also a l2p issue. Funny how that works. Or are you also going to defend big hits with such low cast time that you can't cancel it once casted?

    Daggers is not a reliable heal to fall back on. As it can be reflected, blocked, or dodged.

    Power revs is the only class with 2 heals yet both the heals can be out played to essentially only heal for 1.8k each and in terms of daggers it can heal the enemy and dmg the rev. You know kinda like how IL works but in reserve and much worse as you are healing the enemy and dmging yourself with your own heal skill. But of course this is probably fine for you.

    As I said before if you want to remove the counter play to IL then turn it into a decent flat heal and also remove the counters to daggers.

    enchanted daggers can be reflected becouse otherwise it would be broken heal too ?
    1/2s cast time 6k+ heal that also deals damage, ofc cant be interrupted becouse 1/2 cast time. while everyone else has 3/4 or 1s
    And nobody will cancel cast times against IL, becouse you are not forced to use it, you actively lose damage every times you stow anyway, if you keep stowing then the fact you have IL alone generates value, without even using it. Unless you know for a FACT someone is going to use IL stowing is a bad thing to do, there are times where it will come into play but its not something that will happen much. and even if it does its 1v1 only.
    AT WORST Il is 1,8k heal with 3s invulnerability.
    As for enchanting daggers, hmm how about dont use it when enemy has reflects? Its like one of the only skills that can be reflected, just use it when you can.
    Its not like condi mes that gets 90% of skills reflected back.
    Who can actually reflect it? Guard in the right tome -> use when they are on different one or cd.
    Thief with daggerstorm -> dont attack daggerstorming thief?
    Shield block from warrior -> dont attack shieldblocking warrior?
    What else is there? lol. Proj block is the most people can do, and its ele aoe wind and smoke from thief.

    Ya no, enchanted daggers can be changed to give a flat 4.5k heal at beginning instead of having to actually required taking the risk of hitting the enemy with each dagger to work. Also remove the projectile property so it can still be blocked and evaded but not reflected to dmg yourself with your own heal skill. Or is 4.5k too much to ask since you know full well that most daggers actually don't land and 4.5k is a buff to its so called 6k heal. Also it was you that bought up revs has a reliable heal to fall back on. Now you are trying to defend why it's not reliable.

    And even if you are right,which you are not, how much dmg can these so called big hits do after the patch anyways?

    propably difference of perspective here.
    this "kitten daggers" take 15-20% of mesmers HP if all land.
    you guys are too used to chunking people for 1/2 HP while remaining impossible to kill.
    Now its time to count the pennies of small hits and add them to big total instead of having everything burst people down.

    Basically an "I know daggers is kitten and actually heals for less than 4.5k in its current states so no you can't have a reliable 4.5k heal. It needs to remain as kitten. My mirage became kitten so power revs needs to join the club too." response.

    And as said before IL is only over tuned against over tuned condi builds which shouldn't exist in the first place. The it's great against power builds "just use it to block big hits or its l2p" is complete nonsense.

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2020

    I wish the Deviant Stance clone would just go away. If it were gone they could bump up healing of the Skelk Venom clone, Consume Conditions clone, and Mending clone so core rev doesn't have two halves of one healing skill anymore.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @szeng.1267 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @szeng.1267 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @szeng.1267 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    if you cant use IL to "block" big hits with its "long" 1/4s cast time its l2p issue.
    and I already told you why defiant stance has issues, its the ONLY heal warrior has, if warrior missplays it, he can not heal for 30s.
    rev still has daggers.
    As for mending it has synergy with warrior and low cooldown, you can run cleansing sigil + swap cleansing trait, and preety much swap + heal to get 5 cleanses off ( full cleanse most of the time ) every 20s

    If you cant stow weapon to cancel your big hits that's also a l2p issue. Funny how that works. Or are you also going to defend big hits with such low cast time that you can't cancel it once casted?

    Daggers is not a reliable heal to fall back on. As it can be reflected, blocked, or dodged.

    Power revs is the only class with 2 heals yet both the heals can be out played to essentially only heal for 1.8k each and in terms of daggers it can heal the enemy and dmg the rev. You know kinda like how IL works but in reserve and much worse as you are healing the enemy and dmging yourself with your own heal skill. But of course this is probably fine for you.

    As I said before if you want to remove the counter play to IL then turn it into a decent flat heal and also remove the counters to daggers.

    enchanted daggers can be reflected becouse otherwise it would be broken heal too ?
    1/2s cast time 6k+ heal that also deals damage, ofc cant be interrupted becouse 1/2 cast time. while everyone else has 3/4 or 1s
    And nobody will cancel cast times against IL, becouse you are not forced to use it, you actively lose damage every times you stow anyway, if you keep stowing then the fact you have IL alone generates value, without even using it. Unless you know for a FACT someone is going to use IL stowing is a bad thing to do, there are times where it will come into play but its not something that will happen much. and even if it does its 1v1 only.
    AT WORST Il is 1,8k heal with 3s invulnerability.
    As for enchanting daggers, hmm how about dont use it when enemy has reflects? Its like one of the only skills that can be reflected, just use it when you can.
    Its not like condi mes that gets 90% of skills reflected back.
    Who can actually reflect it? Guard in the right tome -> use when they are on different one or cd.
    Thief with daggerstorm -> dont attack daggerstorming thief?
    Shield block from warrior -> dont attack shieldblocking warrior?
    What else is there? lol. Proj block is the most people can do, and its ele aoe wind and smoke from thief.

    Ya no, enchanted daggers can be changed to give a flat 4.5k heal at beginning instead of having to actually required taking the risk of hitting the enemy with each dagger to work. Also remove the projectile property so it can still be blocked and evaded but not reflected to dmg yourself with your own heal skill. Or is 4.5k too much to ask since you know full well that most daggers actually don't land and 4.5k is a buff to its so called 6k heal. Also it was you that bought up revs has a reliable heal to fall back on. Now you are trying to defend why it's not reliable.

    And even if you are right,which you are not, how much dmg can these so called big hits do after the patch anyways?

    propably difference of perspective here.
    this "kitten daggers" take 15-20% of mesmers HP if all land.
    you guys are too used to chunking people for 1/2 HP while remaining impossible to kill.
    Now its time to count the pennies of small hits and add them to big total instead of having everything burst people down.

    Basically an "I know daggers is kitten and actually heals for less than 4.5k in its current states so no you can't have a reliable 4.5k heal. It needs to remain as kitten. My mirage became kitten so power revs needs to join the club too." response.

    And as said before IL is only over tuned against over tuned condi builds which shouldn't exist in the first place. The it's great against power builds "just use it to block big hits or its l2p" is complete nonsense.

    its very good against everything, and utterly broken against condi.
    I already told you, there is too many scenarios that make this ability full heal, from 1vX to team fights to condi to pulsing aoe to pets etc etc.
    And enchanting daggers is NOT a bad healing skill, it has potential to heal 6,2k its on par with alot of other healing skills. AND it deals good damage.
    compare it to skills like https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Eternity or https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Blood .
    Its VERY comperable to them.

  • szeng.1267szeng.1267 Member ✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @szeng.1267 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @szeng.1267 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @szeng.1267 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    if you cant use IL to "block" big hits with its "long" 1/4s cast time its l2p issue.
    and I already told you why defiant stance has issues, its the ONLY heal warrior has, if warrior missplays it, he can not heal for 30s.
    rev still has daggers.
    As for mending it has synergy with warrior and low cooldown, you can run cleansing sigil + swap cleansing trait, and preety much swap + heal to get 5 cleanses off ( full cleanse most of the time ) every 20s

    If you cant stow weapon to cancel your big hits that's also a l2p issue. Funny how that works. Or are you also going to defend big hits with such low cast time that you can't cancel it once casted?

    Daggers is not a reliable heal to fall back on. As it can be reflected, blocked, or dodged.

    Power revs is the only class with 2 heals yet both the heals can be out played to essentially only heal for 1.8k each and in terms of daggers it can heal the enemy and dmg the rev. You know kinda like how IL works but in reserve and much worse as you are healing the enemy and dmging yourself with your own heal skill. But of course this is probably fine for you.

    As I said before if you want to remove the counter play to IL then turn it into a decent flat heal and also remove the counters to daggers.

    enchanted daggers can be reflected becouse otherwise it would be broken heal too ?
    1/2s cast time 6k+ heal that also deals damage, ofc cant be interrupted becouse 1/2 cast time. while everyone else has 3/4 or 1s
    And nobody will cancel cast times against IL, becouse you are not forced to use it, you actively lose damage every times you stow anyway, if you keep stowing then the fact you have IL alone generates value, without even using it. Unless you know for a FACT someone is going to use IL stowing is a bad thing to do, there are times where it will come into play but its not something that will happen much. and even if it does its 1v1 only.
    AT WORST Il is 1,8k heal with 3s invulnerability.
    As for enchanting daggers, hmm how about dont use it when enemy has reflects? Its like one of the only skills that can be reflected, just use it when you can.
    Its not like condi mes that gets 90% of skills reflected back.
    Who can actually reflect it? Guard in the right tome -> use when they are on different one or cd.
    Thief with daggerstorm -> dont attack daggerstorming thief?
    Shield block from warrior -> dont attack shieldblocking warrior?
    What else is there? lol. Proj block is the most people can do, and its ele aoe wind and smoke from thief.

    Ya no, enchanted daggers can be changed to give a flat 4.5k heal at beginning instead of having to actually required taking the risk of hitting the enemy with each dagger to work. Also remove the projectile property so it can still be blocked and evaded but not reflected to dmg yourself with your own heal skill. Or is 4.5k too much to ask since you know full well that most daggers actually don't land and 4.5k is a buff to its so called 6k heal. Also it was you that bought up revs has a reliable heal to fall back on. Now you are trying to defend why it's not reliable.

    And even if you are right,which you are not, how much dmg can these so called big hits do after the patch anyways?

    propably difference of perspective here.
    this "kitten daggers" take 15-20% of mesmers HP if all land.
    you guys are too used to chunking people for 1/2 HP while remaining impossible to kill.
    Now its time to count the pennies of small hits and add them to big total instead of having everything burst people down.

    Basically an "I know daggers is kitten and actually heals for less than 4.5k in its current states so no you can't have a reliable 4.5k heal. It needs to remain as kitten. My mirage became kitten so power revs needs to join the club too." response.

    And as said before IL is only over tuned against over tuned condi builds which shouldn't exist in the first place. The it's great against power builds "just use it to block big hits or its l2p" is complete nonsense.

    its very good against everything, and utterly broken against condi.
    I already told you, there is too many scenarios that make this ability full heal, from 1vX to team fights to condi to pulsing aoe to pets etc etc.
    And enchanting daggers is NOT a bad healing skill, it has potential to heal 6,2k its on par with alot of other healing skills. AND it deals good damage.
    compare it to skills like https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Eternity or https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Blood .
    Its VERY comperable to them.

    Ok I'm not going to get into a new discussion over why daggers is is so good but you refuse to turn it into a mediocre 4.5k. You clearly know that daggers currently is worth less than that and thats why you refuse to bring it up to mediocre status.

    No IL is not good against everything. Not even pre patch when power was hitting for 10k constantly. If that was true why didn't warriors choose defiant stance over mendings? According to you it's because defiant stance isn't reliable against power and warriors doesn't have a second heal to fall back on right? Thats why revs having the second heal to fall back on was so good right? But also according to you it's a l2p issue if you can't use it to block the big 10k hits essentially healing you for 10k and avoiding 10k for a total of 20k worth of hp value right? So basically your reasoning for warriors not picking defiant stance over mending is because it's not reliable but also it not being reliable is a l2p issue right? So following your logic, if you can't get 20k Hp value out of defiant stance against condi AND power builds it's a l2p issue right? So if that's the case a 10k flat heal for defiant stance is a nerf right?

    But wait a minute the op thought I was high when I tried to follow your logic.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @szeng.1267 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @szeng.1267 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @szeng.1267 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @szeng.1267 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    if you cant use IL to "block" big hits with its "long" 1/4s cast time its l2p issue.
    and I already told you why defiant stance has issues, its the ONLY heal warrior has, if warrior missplays it, he can not heal for 30s.
    rev still has daggers.
    As for mending it has synergy with warrior and low cooldown, you can run cleansing sigil + swap cleansing trait, and preety much swap + heal to get 5 cleanses off ( full cleanse most of the time ) every 20s

    If you cant stow weapon to cancel your big hits that's also a l2p issue. Funny how that works. Or are you also going to defend big hits with such low cast time that you can't cancel it once casted?

    Daggers is not a reliable heal to fall back on. As it can be reflected, blocked, or dodged.

    Power revs is the only class with 2 heals yet both the heals can be out played to essentially only heal for 1.8k each and in terms of daggers it can heal the enemy and dmg the rev. You know kinda like how IL works but in reserve and much worse as you are healing the enemy and dmging yourself with your own heal skill. But of course this is probably fine for you.

    As I said before if you want to remove the counter play to IL then turn it into a decent flat heal and also remove the counters to daggers.

    enchanted daggers can be reflected becouse otherwise it would be broken heal too ?
    1/2s cast time 6k+ heal that also deals damage, ofc cant be interrupted becouse 1/2 cast time. while everyone else has 3/4 or 1s
    And nobody will cancel cast times against IL, becouse you are not forced to use it, you actively lose damage every times you stow anyway, if you keep stowing then the fact you have IL alone generates value, without even using it. Unless you know for a FACT someone is going to use IL stowing is a bad thing to do, there are times where it will come into play but its not something that will happen much. and even if it does its 1v1 only.
    AT WORST Il is 1,8k heal with 3s invulnerability.
    As for enchanting daggers, hmm how about dont use it when enemy has reflects? Its like one of the only skills that can be reflected, just use it when you can.
    Its not like condi mes that gets 90% of skills reflected back.
    Who can actually reflect it? Guard in the right tome -> use when they are on different one or cd.
    Thief with daggerstorm -> dont attack daggerstorming thief?
    Shield block from warrior -> dont attack shieldblocking warrior?
    What else is there? lol. Proj block is the most people can do, and its ele aoe wind and smoke from thief.

    Ya no, enchanted daggers can be changed to give a flat 4.5k heal at beginning instead of having to actually required taking the risk of hitting the enemy with each dagger to work. Also remove the projectile property so it can still be blocked and evaded but not reflected to dmg yourself with your own heal skill. Or is 4.5k too much to ask since you know full well that most daggers actually don't land and 4.5k is a buff to its so called 6k heal. Also it was you that bought up revs has a reliable heal to fall back on. Now you are trying to defend why it's not reliable.

    And even if you are right,which you are not, how much dmg can these so called big hits do after the patch anyways?

    propably difference of perspective here.
    this "kitten daggers" take 15-20% of mesmers HP if all land.
    you guys are too used to chunking people for 1/2 HP while remaining impossible to kill.
    Now its time to count the pennies of small hits and add them to big total instead of having everything burst people down.

    Basically an "I know daggers is kitten and actually heals for less than 4.5k in its current states so no you can't have a reliable 4.5k heal. It needs to remain as kitten. My mirage became kitten so power revs needs to join the club too." response.

    And as said before IL is only over tuned against over tuned condi builds which shouldn't exist in the first place. The it's great against power builds "just use it to block big hits or its l2p" is complete nonsense.

    its very good against everything, and utterly broken against condi.
    I already told you, there is too many scenarios that make this ability full heal, from 1vX to team fights to condi to pulsing aoe to pets etc etc.
    And enchanting daggers is NOT a bad healing skill, it has potential to heal 6,2k its on par with alot of other healing skills. AND it deals good damage.
    compare it to skills like https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Eternity or https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Blood .
    Its VERY comperable to them.

    Ok I'm not going to get into a new discussion over why daggers is is so good but you refuse to turn it into a mediocre 4.5k. You clearly know that daggers currently is worth less than that and thats why you refuse to bring it up to mediocre status.

    No IL is not good against everything. Not even pre patch when power was hitting for 10k constantly. If that was true why didn't warriors choose defiant stance over mendings? According to you it's because defiant stance isn't reliable against power and warriors doesn't have a second heal to fall back on right? Thats why revs having the second heal to fall back on was so good right? But also according to you it's a l2p issue if you can't use it to block the big 10k hits essentially healing you for 10k and avoiding 10k for a total of 20k worth of hp value right? So basically your reasoning for warriors not picking defiant stance over mending is because it's not reliable but also it not being reliable is a l2p issue right? So following your logic, if you can't get 20k Hp value out of defiant stance against condi AND power builds it's a l2p issue right? So if that's the case a 10k flat heal for defiant stance is a nerf right?

    But wait a minute the op thought I was high when I tried to follow your logic.

    You can try to loop around all you want pal but you need to learn how to understand what you read instead of just repeating like a parrot.
    Warrior can NOT fall back into another healing skill if he kitten up his stance, rev can so ANY risk of using IL is negated.
    I also mention how mending has synergy with warrior celanse switch, it can be used to 5cleanse every 20s.
    OFC you have decided to ignore that, It is the best way to argue, ignore the point someone is trying to make.
    ED also deals damage, you MIGHT have missed that, its not just heal. It also pops blind/aegis etc etc
    No warrior was using stance becouse signet was braindead easy to use with no drawback, no counter overpowered piece of kitten heal.
    And honestly I would take stance over mending If I were to play warrior, mending sounds like lazy low effort good reward vs stance high effort high reward.

  • szeng.1267szeng.1267 Member ✭✭
    edited March 24, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    You can try to loop around all you want pal but you need to learn how to understand what you read instead of just repeating like a parrot.
    Warrior can NOT fall back into another healing skill if he kitten up his stance, rev can so ANY risk of using IL is negated.
    I also mention how mending has synergy with warrior celanse switch, it can be used to 5cleanse every 20s.
    OFC you have decided to ignore that, It is the best way to argue, ignore the point someone is trying to make.
    ED also deals damage, you MIGHT have missed that, its not just heal. It also pops blind/aegis etc etc
    No warrior was using stance becouse signet was braindead easy to use with no drawback, no counter overpowered piece of kitten heal.
    And honestly I would take stance over mending If I were to play warrior, mending sounds like lazy low effort good reward vs stance high effort high reward.

    You can also try to lie and over exaggerate the effectiveness of IL all you want pal. Those are your words not mine. You are the one who stated are those things.
    According to you of warriors kitten up his stance its an l2p issue. Again your words not mine.
    Ya because the the 5 cleanse is so much better than an 26k value hp value from defiant stance. Again its your logic that gave defiant stance this inflated value.
    You only need one reflect to counter daggers as power revs only have one projectile skill.

    Lets apply more of your logic.
    Enchanting daggers:
    Siphon Damage: 858
    Siphon Healing: 768
    If you reflect ONE of the projectiles the rev lost 768 healing and took 858 dmg while the enemy gained 768 healing and blocked 858 dmg thats a total net lost of 3.2k for the rev from ONE reflected daggers. This is the logic you used to get the 20k+ hp value from IL is it not?

    "Thief with daggerstorm -> dont attack daggerstorming thief?
    Shield block from warrior -> dont attack shieldblocking warrior?"

    Revs can just stop attacking when the target used their reflects right?
    Funny how "if you cant use IL to "block" big hits with its "long" 1/4s cast time its l2p issue" but if you cant use your reflects to "block" daggers its totally fine.

    Funny how when I suggest to change both daggers and infused light to give flat heals which solves both problems of IL of being "broken against condi builds" and daggers dmging the revs himself, you refuse. It's as if you only think counter play is good if it benefits you. It's as if you don't really want to fix the "broken against condi" issue but just wants a blanket nerf to herald as a whole. And this is why I laugh at you for mirages getting dumped on because you are essentially doing the exact same thing as the people who cry for mirage nerf as a whole. For other power mirage mains the one dodge is stupid but for you ya you deserve it.

  • Chungo.3169Chungo.3169 Member ✭✭

    How can anyone say that IL is broken? It's as simple as pressing a button and that rev didn't get any healing anymore lol. Reflect projectiles is not broken? I saw more than one commit suicide, gg. If you want flat cures to rev even better, I'm sick of them keeping their weapons and not healing me, if they don't know how to do it it's their ltp problem. If you throw a stone it will fall on your roof;)

  • Vornollo.5182Vornollo.5182 Member ✭✭✭

    You can play around it pretty easily, bait it before your burst, kite until they have to legend swap (do put some counter pressure of course) and then put your bomb on them while they're locked out of Glint for 8 seconds...
    Essentially, don't just faceroll... It's like using weapon stowing with some skills, really nice for baiting dodges.
    Just take a step back, think, anticipate, then act.
    Play it right and it'll heal for just about nothing.

    Hate to break it, but It's pretty much a "git gud" sort of thing. Separates different levels of players, which is completely fine, some people will simply be better at something, no need to ask for nerfs just because you yourself do not want to make use of counter mechanics...

    Also, just to put it out there; No, I'm not a Revenant player.

    [PUSH] Constant Pressure

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    enchanted daggers can be reflected becouse otherwise it would be broken heal too ?
    1/2s cast time 6k+ heal that also deals damage, ofc cant be interrupted becouse 1/2 cast time. while everyone else has 3/4 or 1s

    Just going to chime in since I see this tactic used a lot. It's disingenuous to simply list off all the pros of something as if reading off a grocery list and use that as an example for why said thing is (or would be) broken.

    I could easily sit here listing off all the stregnths of Druid in PvP: Bonkers sustain, crazy mobility, pets that hit hard, low cooldown stunbreaks that double as condi cleanses and they can easily take 3 of them. Immob spam, teamfight utility with CA, near perma prot uptime while pooping out weakness, and a 13 condi cleanse on CA making them immune to power and condi damage alike, and on top of all that, one of the best heal skills in the game with troll ungent and it's many skill synergies.

    It doesn't take long for someone to dismantle this argument by stating the many reasons why Druid does not work in practice as well as it does on paper.

    Likewise, I could point out a number of reasons why, despite the 6k heal on a short cast time, Daggers would not be necessarily be broken if the reflect weakness were removed.

    You do not simply press the skill for an instant 6k heal. You press the skill for a 6k heal delivered to you over time, but only if all hits land and are not either evaded blocked. On top of that you must put yourself in harms way in order to gain said heal which isn't always an optimal place to be if you're in a position where you want to resustain.

    `

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    enchanted daggers can be reflected becouse otherwise it would be broken heal too ?
    1/2s cast time 6k+ heal that also deals damage, ofc cant be interrupted becouse 1/2 cast time. while everyone else has 3/4 or 1s

    Just going to chime in since I see this tactic used a lot. It's disingenuous to simply list off all the pros of something as if reading off a grocery list and use that as an example for why said thing is (or would be) broken.

    I could easily sit here listing off all the stregnths of Druid in PvP: Bonkers sustain, crazy mobility, pets that hit hard, low cooldown stunbreaks that double as condi cleanses and they can easily take 3 of them. Immob spam, teamfight utility with CA, near perma prot uptime while pooping out weakness, and a 13 condi cleanse on CA making them immune to power and condi damage alike, and on top of all that, one of the best heal skills in the game with troll ungent and it's many skill synergies.

    It doesn't take long for someone to dismantle this argument by stating the many reasons why Druid does not work in practice as well as it does on paper.

    Likewise, I could point out a number of reasons why, despite the 6k heal on a short cast time, Daggers would not be necessarily be broken if the reflect weakness were removed.

    You do not simply press the skill for an instant 6k heal. You press the skill for a 6k heal delivered to you over time, but only if all hits land and are not either evaded blocked. On top of that you must put yourself in harms way in order to gain said heal which isn't always an optimal place to be if you're in a position where you want to resustain.

    `

    and there are plent of MAIN heals that do the same, and are still used.
    Like mirage oasis, necro well, troll urgent to name the few.
    Or other heals that have counterplay like necro well, you are stuck in place.
    ED fits power rev playstyle and it is a good heal, the best? nope. but it holds its own.

  • Xca.9721Xca.9721 Member ✭✭✭

    I wouldn´t bother arguing with Leonidrex, this dude is on a holy crusade defending Mirage while wanting every other class nerfed

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Xca.9721 said:
    I wouldn´t bother arguing with Leonidrex, this dude is on a holy crusade defending Mirage while wanting every other class nerfed

    I'm a rev main and I think Infuse Light is bloated and should be nerfed to only be used as an anti-burst because in it's current state, it's too forgiving and noob friendly.

    All Revenants skills heal on an average of 5k, it wouldn't hurt it all.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Xca.9721 said:
    I wouldn´t bother arguing with Leonidrex, this dude is on a holy crusade defending Mirage while wanting every other class nerfed

    I'm a rev main and I think Infuse Light is bloated and should be nerfed to only be used as an anti-burst because in it's current state, it's too forgiving and noob friendly.

    All Revenants skills heal on an average of 5k, it wouldn't hurt it all.

    most humans disagree with you if they dont like you. and its meaningless if you are right or wrong or if they even know what you are talking about ;p

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @szeng.1267
    brochacho, I know some of the daggers will get reflected from time to time. this happens to everyone.
    But they have ICD at throw so you should not get reflected more then 2 ever, and realistically 1 tops.
    Raw numbers of dagger is really huge for a healing skill. 850 dmg each x 6 = 5k. you add 6,2k heal and it ends up being a big number.11k+ HP swing is nothing to scoff at.
    Its balanced out by missing, being blocked and being spread over duration.
    1850 always from IL + 1650 from daggers and from that alone you get 3,5k heal.

    I looked again at warrior example, and now I understand why its used over stance.
    Becouse peak performance puts it at ridiculous 16s CD full cleanse + 7% dmg buff.
    IF spammed off cooldown it provides slightly over 400hp/s, combine it with good cleanse and dmg boost its better then stance.
    Mesmers Eather Feast, if used off cooldown, and used ALWAYS with 3 clones up has 300hp/s. Not only you are tied to ammout of clones but you also dont get dps buff or cleanse.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2020

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:
    GL activating this skill at the right moment while being chain CCed to oblivion.

    it can be interrupted.... even while in effect.... (some holo skills sometimes even bug and ignore the convert damage, never understood when that happens).
    The skill only conververts all incoming damage to healing for 3 seconds... its not a invunerable skill...
    I use it only in panic situations, when im getting ganked, when i ended being pulled and jumped... when im cought in a bomb, just as in to delay or help or try to move of the current situation, and its on a 30sec cooldown like any other healing skill :\

    Altough m8 be a very very strong(as in overwhelming of understanding how to counter) skill against very "im here to smuch keys" kinda of players...
    All that OP needs to do is wait 3 seconds and he/she can get back to atack ...... more eyes less key bashing id say.

    Maybe some animation should be more noticeable, but hard to say due Gw2 visual noise clusterkiten....

    Note: i believe some unblockable skills will ignore this skill converto to damage.

  • Eugchriss.2046Eugchriss.2046 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    The skill only conververts all incoming damage to healing for 3 seconds... its not a invunerable skill...

    You re kitten right: this is not an invuneralble skill. This is better than an invulnerable skill. (btw **most **invulnerable skills last 3 secs)

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    I use it only in panic situations, when im getting ganked, when i ended being pulled and jumped... when im cought in a bomb, just as in to delay or help or try to move of the current situation, and its on a 30sec cooldown like any other healing skill :\

    except that most other healing skills don t heal for 10k+ and don t have that "don t touch me" effect.

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    Altough m8 be a very very strong(as in overwhelming of understanding how to counter) skill against very "im here to smuch keys" kinda of players...

    Defiance stance is too, but yet no one complains about it? Do you have any explanation for that?

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    All that OP needs to do is wait 3 seconds and he/she can get back to atack ...... more eyes less key bashing id say.

    Thank you for the advice but If only it was that simple....
    What most of you don t understand is that NOT ALL ATTACKS CAN BE STOWED. Condi, pets, spirits, turrets, wells, clones/phantasm, necro's marks, guard's symbols, traps. Basically everything that is not direct/no delay, power damage CAN T BE CANCELLED.
    Now look at defiance stance, it behaves EXACTLY the same way that infuse light but is way more balanced. But then what is the difference between those 2? COOLDOWN
    With war (and most classes), you have 30 secs to burst him down before he can heal again. With rev you have 15 seconds. So you have to be able to burst/damage him twice in 15 secs (or less)if you want to kill him. The first row is to bait him enough so he uses infuse light. The second one is to kill him before he uses his other legend's heal. Now, how many classes can do that? How may classes can burst someone one twice in 15 secs? That's where the problem is. That's why I want this skill to be on 45 secs cd, so it would match defiance stance cooldown.

  • Razor.6392Razor.6392 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Imagine being the only class with 2 different healing abilities and saying "just stop attacking lolol" nevermind the conditions that might already be ticking.

    It's factually an invuln. Not every encounter is a 1v1 where you can just stop attacking, in a teamfight or aoe fiesta the rev can just choose to take damage on purpose.

    3 seconds where they can autoattack away or dps as much as they want without needing to dodge or anything. AND even if you do the counterplay, guess what, they got another heal.

    Rev has never not been broken. It's such a mess of a dumb class, when I tried to describe it to a friend I wouldn't even know what to call it. It doesn't fit in any archetype, it's bursty and mobile yet uses heavy armor, has medium health and cc / dodges.

    Horrendous design tbh.

    Never said I'm the best, but I believe I'm better than you.

  • szeng.1267szeng.1267 Member ✭✭
    edited March 27, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @szeng.1267
    brochacho, I know some of the daggers will get reflected from time to time. this happens to everyone.
    But they have ICD at throw so you should not get reflected more then 2 ever, and realistically 1 tops.
    Raw numbers of dagger is really huge for a healing skill. 850 dmg each x 6 = 5k. you add 6,2k heal and it ends up being a big number.11k+ HP swing is nothing to scoff at.
    Its balanced out by missing, being blocked and being spread over duration.
    1850 always from IL + 1650 from daggers and from that alone you get 3,5k heal.

    I looked again at warrior example, and now I understand why its used over stance.
    Becouse peak performance puts it at ridiculous 16s CD full cleanse + 7% dmg buff.
    IF spammed off cooldown it provides slightly over 400hp/s, combine it with good cleanse and dmg boost its better then stance.
    Mesmers Eather Feast, if used off cooldown, and used ALWAYS with 3 clones up has 300hp/s. Not only you are tied to ammout of clones but you also dont get dps buff or cleanse.

    Ok. You need to stop using the best of the best scenarios to claim why you think something is overperforming. On average only about 3 daggers land. That's about 4k heal and 2.5k dmg with a 6.5k swing NOT 11k+. If one gets reflected that "swing" goes down to 3.3k. Also in order for the Rev to get that mediocre 4k hp they MUST fight and take the risks. It's not an oh you getting pressured lets heal/kite and play it safe like a normal heal. It's oh you getting pressured and want heal? Too bad go risk your life to get it. And usually the risk is not worth it so revs just use it for an offensive dmg boost instead.

    You also don't need to tell me why warriors choose mending over stance against condi. I already know why. All you have to do is admit you lied about the effectiveness of IL/defiant stance and that it is not worth 20k/26k hp against balanced condi builds.

    Bottom line you know those numbers you're throwing out for daggers and IL against condi are complete bull manure and not realistic. Revs DON'T get 11k + 20k every 30 seconds against condi. You know this. I know this. Everyone on this forums knows this.

    Edit: At least this time you acknowledged ED and IL combined can sometimes heal for only 3.5k

  • Brujeria.7536Brujeria.7536 Member ✭✭✭

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:
    I think that this has always been (one of ) the problem with herald. When people talk about herald's sustain, they all refer to this specific skill. The ability to heal more than someone who is built for heal is beyond me. It was like having a better version of reflect which not only reflects all projectiles but all incoming damage. Just imagine how toxic that skill would be. But never mind...
    The drawback of such skills like defiant stance is longer cd (30 secs) compared to other "regular" heals (20-25 secs). Rev is the only class that should not have access to this kind of skill because they already have 2 healing skills which in practice makes infuse light only have 15secs cd. This is why I suggest:
    -either change the whole skill so that it doesn t convert all incoming damage in heal anymore
    -either make it 45 secs cd to match up with other similar skills I mentioned above.

    Just cap the maximum amount it can heal to a reasonable number and reduce the duration to 2 seconds. Or: change it so that it does not heal for condition damage.

    Not attacking as counterplay is good in general, but conditions are already at the target most of the times, and rev has enough against conditions already.

  • Xca.9721Xca.9721 Member ✭✭✭

    @Brujeria.7536 said:

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:
    I think that this has always been (one of ) the problem with herald. When people talk about herald's sustain, they all refer to this specific skill. The ability to heal more than someone who is built for heal is beyond me. It was like having a better version of reflect which not only reflects all projectiles but all incoming damage. Just imagine how toxic that skill would be. But never mind...
    The drawback of such skills like defiant stance is longer cd (30 secs) compared to other "regular" heals (20-25 secs). Rev is the only class that should not have access to this kind of skill because they already have 2 healing skills which in practice makes infuse light only have 15secs cd. This is why I suggest:
    -either change the whole skill so that it doesn t convert all incoming damage in heal anymore
    -either make it 45 secs cd to match up with other similar skills I mentioned above.

    Just cap the maximum amount it can heal to a reasonable number and reduce the duration to 2 seconds. Or: change it so that it does not heal for condition damage.

    Not attacking as counterplay is good in general, but conditions are already at the target most of the times, and rev has enough against conditions already.

    Condi Rev has enough against conditions, not power rev. If they change IL, they need to give us something to cleanse Conditions in return.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @szeng.1267
    you reading improperly every time is getting tiring to me honestly.
    ED has POTENTIAL to make 11k HP swing, never have I mentioned it doing it every time, depending on the enemy 4-8k is relistic.
    there is no point arguing with you, you will choose to ignore what I say, and you will read what you want to read.

  • Zephoid.4263Zephoid.4263 Member ✭✭✭

    @szeng.1267 said:
    On average only about 3 daggers land.

    There are ~4 abilities that actually reflect that are used. Almost never more than 1 on a class, usually 0. If you are getting your dagger reflected every single cast, you are seriously doing something wrong.

    That rev even has a 2nd heal skill that CAN be on par with every other class is already putting it at a HUGE sustain advantage. IL Is the strongest heal ability in the game bar none. That you even have a backup to it isn't balanced. With PVP turning into bunker and condi wars, IL is clearly putting rev leagues over almost any other condi class. That IL is both a anti-condi and anti-power heal skill (3s of actable invuln) is really not balanced. As i mentioned earlier, Consume Conditions got nerfed for being too good and IL is easily better than a 1.25s cast time consume conditions. Especially with the condi duration and condi rune nerfs.

  • Chungo.3169Chungo.3169 Member ✭✭

    IL good vs condi? Conditions last 3sec? The power rev has little cleanliness, little breakstun (is the only class in the game that is punished for breakstun) and IL is strong vs condi? If the conditions only lasted 3 sec instead of 10+ and 8/10 different types + spam and the spam cc was not in the current state I would NOT tell the rev that I killed you GG.

  • Zephoid.4263Zephoid.4263 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chungo.3169 said:
    IL good vs condi? Conditions last 3sec? The power rev has little cleanliness, little breakstun (is the only class in the game that is punished for breakstun) and IL is strong vs condi? If the conditions only lasted 3 sec instead of 10+ and 8/10 different types + spam and the spam cc was not in the current state I would NOT tell the rev that I killed you GG.

    The most damaging condi is burning. Almost all burning have 4s duration or less. IL negates all but a single sec of that and full heals on most numbers of burning stacks.

    Also, because of IL's reverse damage, a 6s condi at the time of IL's cast is going to be effectively 0 damage.

    Also, almost no condition is 10s+. A few abilities can apply bleeding >10s, but everything else has been significantly nerfed. No expertise stats and nerfed runes means condition durations don't go up a whole lot more. Condi rev can also use rune of oor which is -25% incoming duration.

    Even if condi durations are >3s, IL is a FULL HEAL 3s INVULN vs condi. How is that a remotely balanced. Compare to consume conditions, again. Not even close.

  • Chungo.3169Chungo.3169 Member ✭✭

    @Zephoid.4263 said:

    @Chungo.3169 said:
    IL good vs condi? Conditions last 3sec? The power rev has little cleanliness, little breakstun (is the only class in the game that is punished for breakstun) and IL is strong vs condi? If the conditions only lasted 3 sec instead of 10+ and 8/10 different types + spam and the spam cc was not in the current state I would NOT tell the rev that I killed you GG.

    The most damaging condi is burning. Almost all burning have 4s duration or less. IL negates all but a single sec of that and full heals on most numbers of burning stacks.

    Also, because of IL's reverse damage, a 6s condi at the time of IL's cast is going to be effectively 0 damage.

    Also, almost no condition is 10s+. A few abilities can apply bleeding >10s, but everything else has been significantly nerfed. No expertise stats and nerfed runes means condition durations don't go up a whole lot more. Condi rev can also use rune of oor which is -25% incoming duration.

    Even if condi durations are >3s, IL is a FULL HEAL 3s INVULN vs condi. How is that a remotely balanced. Compare to consume conditions, again. Not even close.

    Well, I could waste my time making a table about duration and different types of condi + cd can pump certain classes, and you will see that it is not only fire that kills. We all know. But ... tell me which class is punished for stunbreak other than rev, or tell me which class has fewer weapon sets or customization on their abilities than rev. This is what differentiates each class, if they were not all the same. Rev needs more weapon sets and to be able to choose more, if a thief takes the dagger, he still has a sword, if they take a scepter from Mesmer, he still has an ax ... Go try rev power without resistance runes :) or nerf runes which is what seems like the best solution.

  • Eugchriss.2046Eugchriss.2046 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chungo.3169 said:

    @Zephoid.4263 said:

    @Chungo.3169 said:
    IL good vs condi? Conditions last 3sec? The power rev has little cleanliness, little breakstun (is the only class in the game that is punished for breakstun) and IL is strong vs condi? If the conditions only lasted 3 sec instead of 10+ and 8/10 different types + spam and the spam cc was not in the current state I would NOT tell the rev that I killed you GG.

    The most damaging condi is burning. Almost all burning have 4s duration or less. IL negates all but a single sec of that and full heals on most numbers of burning stacks.

    Also, because of IL's reverse damage, a 6s condi at the time of IL's cast is going to be effectively 0 damage.

    Also, almost no condition is 10s+. A few abilities can apply bleeding >10s, but everything else has been significantly nerfed. No expertise stats and nerfed runes means condition durations don't go up a whole lot more. Condi rev can also use rune of oor which is -25% incoming duration.

    Even if condi durations are >3s, IL is a FULL HEAL 3s INVULN vs condi. How is that a remotely balanced. Compare to consume conditions, again. Not even close.

    Well, I could waste my time making a table about duration and different types of condi + cd can pump certain classes, and you will see that it is not only fire that kills. We all know. But ... tell me which class is punished for stunbreak other than rev, or tell me which class has fewer weapon sets or customization on their abilities than rev. This is what differentiates each class, if they were not all the same. Rev needs more weapon sets and to be able to choose more, if a thief takes the dagger, he still has a sword, if they take a scepter from Mesmer, he still has an ax ... Go try rev power without resistance runes :) or nerf runes which is what seems like the best solution.

    chewbacca defense in action lmao.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2020

    @Xca.9721 said:

    @Brujeria.7536 said:

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:
    I think that this has always been (one of ) the problem with herald. When people talk about herald's sustain, they all refer to this specific skill. The ability to heal more than someone who is built for heal is beyond me. It was like having a better version of reflect which not only reflects all projectiles but all incoming damage. Just imagine how toxic that skill would be. But never mind...
    The drawback of such skills like defiant stance is longer cd (30 secs) compared to other "regular" heals (20-25 secs). Rev is the only class that should not have access to this kind of skill because they already have 2 healing skills which in practice makes infuse light only have 15secs cd. This is why I suggest:
    -either change the whole skill so that it doesn t convert all incoming damage in heal anymore
    -either make it 45 secs cd to match up with other similar skills I mentioned above.

    Just cap the maximum amount it can heal to a reasonable number and reduce the duration to 2 seconds. Or: change it so that it does not heal for condition damage.

    Not attacking as counterplay is good in general, but conditions are already at the target most of the times, and rev has enough against conditions already.

    Condi Rev has enough against conditions, not power rev. If they change IL, they need to give us something to cleanse Conditions in return.

    Infuse Light + Shiro proc trait if picked (Cleanse, Quickness, Vulnerability) + Riposting Shadows + Staff/Shield proc any sigils (Cleansing, Escape) + Renewing Wave/Crystal Hibernation. Kite and repeat. Total of 9 conditions every in less than 30 seconds, that's plenty. 12 with Lyssa or 11 with Leadership.

    Infuse Light + Jalis proc trait if picked (Cleanse, Barrier, Weakness) + Vengeful Hammers + Staff/Shield proc any sigils (Cleansing, Escape) + Renewing Wave/Crystal Hibernation. Add Jalis heal if needed. Kite and repeat. Total of 14 conditions every 30 seconds with damage reductions. 17 with Lyssa or 16 Leadership.

    Infuse Light + Ventari proc trait if picked (Cleanse, Healing) + Purifying Essence + True nature + Staff/Shield proc any sigils (Cleansing, Escape) + Renewing Wave/Crystal Hibernation. Kite and Repeat. Possible total of 18 conditions without counting the different combinations of weapons. 21 with Lyssa or 20 with Leadership.

    As an anti-burst for 2 seconds, you got plenty.

    @Chungo.3169 said:

    @Zephoid.4263 said:

    @Chungo.3169 said:
    IL good vs condi? Conditions last 3sec? The power rev has little cleanliness, little breakstun (is the only class in the game that is punished for breakstun) and IL is strong vs condi? If the conditions only lasted 3 sec instead of 10+ and 8/10 different types + spam and the spam cc was not in the current state I would NOT tell the rev that I killed you GG.

    The most damaging condi is burning. Almost all burning have 4s duration or less. IL negates all but a single sec of that and full heals on most numbers of burning stacks.

    Also, because of IL's reverse damage, a 6s condi at the time of IL's cast is going to be effectively 0 damage.

    Also, almost no condition is 10s+. A few abilities can apply bleeding >10s, but everything else has been significantly nerfed. No expertise stats and nerfed runes means condition durations don't go up a whole lot more. Condi rev can also use rune of oor which is -25% incoming duration.

    Even if condi durations are >3s, IL is a FULL HEAL 3s INVULN vs condi. How is that a remotely balanced. Compare to consume conditions, again. Not even close.

    Well, I could waste my time making a table about duration and different types of condi + cd can pump certain classes, and you will see that it is not only fire that kills. We all know. But ... tell me which class is punished for stunbreak other than rev, or tell me which class has fewer weapon sets or customization on their abilities than rev. This is what differentiates each class, if they were not all the same. Rev needs more weapon sets and to be able to choose more, if a thief takes the dagger, he still has a sword, if they take a scepter from Mesmer, he still has an ax ... Go try rev power without resistance runes :) or nerf runes which is what seems like the best solution.

    I can beat condition builds as Berserker Jalis/Shiro core, it's quite doable without the rune, in fact never used it since I have Lynx for mobility.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭

    I ended up doing my placements playing mostly power Rev. Not sure why so many people say it's dead, still feels quite strong even after the nerfs.

    Started in mid silver. People mindlessly spammed into my infuse light and gave me free heals for days. I'm at around Gold 2 now, and it would seem that the ruse is up. If I use IL, people simply stop hitting me until it ends and I don't get my heal. Where IL still gives me good value is in teamfights where Necros, Firebrands, and Condi Rev's galore are spamming condis and AoEs.

    My theory for why IL was fine before, but seems problematic now is not due to the skill itself, but due to Rev's role shifting. Before, when power was the meta build, you would mostly find yourself in duels, +1s, or small skirmishes. In these scenarios it's easy to counterplay IL by pausing damage on the Rev, especially in the previous power meta.

    Now, Rev is a teamfighter with the condi build, and often finds itself in larger fights where it can take advantage of the opposing team's AoE's to heal itself. Condis are stronger now as well, so you can pop it reactively if you find yourself at the opposing end of a large condi burst.

    Condi Rev is almost certainly going to get nerfed again. As a result, they'll most likely default back to the power build. Rev will be teamfighting less and therefore gaining less value out of their heal once more.

    I suggest waiting to see how Rev shapes up after condi takes a hit before doubling up on nerfs to the heal as well.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    I ended up doing my placements playing mostly power Rev. Not sure why so many people say it's dead, still feels quite strong even after the nerfs.

    Started in mid silver. People mindlessly spammed into my infuse light and gave me free heals for days. I'm at around Gold 2 now, and it would seem that the ruse is up. If I use IL, people simply stop hitting me until it ends and I don't get my heal. Where IL still gives me good value is in teamfights where Necros, Firebrands, and Condi Rev's galore are spamming condis and AoEs.

    My theory for why IL was fine before, but seems problematic now is not due to the skill itself, but due to Rev's role shifting. Before, when power was the meta build, you would mostly find yourself in duels, +1s, or small skirmishes. In these scenarios it's easy to counterplay IL by pausing damage on the Rev, especially in the previous power meta.

    Now, Rev is a teamfighter with the condi build, and often finds itself in larger fights where it can take advantage of the opposing team's AoE's to heal itself. Condis are stronger now as well, so you can pop it reactively if you find yourself at the opposing end of a large condi burst.

    Condi Rev is almost certainly going to get nerfed again. As a result, they'll most likely default back to the power build. Rev will be teamfighting less and therefore gaining less value out of their heal once more.

    I suggest waiting to see how Rev shapes up after condi takes a hit before doubling up on nerfs to the heal as well.

    What would they nerf, last patch was 50% less damage. There's nothing else to nerf without killing Mallyx altogether. They also have to fix Permeating Pestilence not working properly.

  • Eugchriss.2046Eugchriss.2046 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2020

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    I ended up doing my placements playing mostly power Rev. Not sure why so many people say it's dead, still feels quite strong even after the nerfs.

    Started in mid silver. People mindlessly spammed into my infuse light and gave me free heals for days. I'm at around Gold 2 now, and it would seem that the ruse is up. If I use IL, people simply stop hitting me until it ends and I don't get my heal. Where IL still gives me good value is in teamfights where Necros, Firebrands, and Condi Rev's galore are spamming condis and AoEs.

    My theory for why IL was fine before, but seems problematic now is not due to the skill itself, but due to Rev's role shifting. Before, when power was the meta build, you would mostly find yourself in duels, +1s, or small skirmishes. In these scenarios it's easy to counterplay IL by pausing damage on the Rev, especially in the previous power meta.

    Now, Rev is a teamfighter with the condi build, and often finds itself in larger fights where it can take advantage of the opposing team's AoE's to heal itself. Condis are stronger now as well, so you can pop it reactively if you find yourself at the opposing end of a large condi burst.

    Condi Rev is almost certainly going to get nerfed again. As a result, they'll most likely default back to the power build. Rev will be teamfighting less and therefore gaining less value out of their heal once more.

    I suggest waiting to see how Rev shapes up after condi takes a hit before doubling up on nerfs to the heal as well.

    What would they nerf, last patch was 50% less damage. There's nothing else to nerf without killing Mallyx altogether. They also have to fix Permeating Pestilence not working properly.

    call for anguish -> 50e.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2020

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    What would they nerf, last patch was 50% less damage. There's nothing else to nerf without killing Mallyx altogether. They also have to fix Permeating Pestilence not working properly.

    If I had to guess, either they're going to nerf its Resistance access, nerf mallyx upkeep to 8 energy/sec, or nerf true nature's flip. Either way, there's enough of a forum outcry for condi rev to be nerfed that changes are likely coming. Personally, I think the claims are overblown due to bad expereinces fighting it in 2v2, but others would disagree.

    Either way, IL doesn't overperform on power builds due to the reasons listed above. At best it helps give Rev a way to play around some of its weaknesses (subpar teamfight and vulnerability to condi pressure). If condi rev takes a hit it will no longer be a problematic spell.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2020

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    What would they nerf, last patch was 50% less damage. There's nothing else to nerf without killing Mallyx altogether. They also have to fix Permeating Pestilence not working properly.

    If I had to guess, either they're going to nerf its Resistance access, nerf mallyx upkeep to 8 energy/sec, or nerf true nature's flip. Either way, there's enough of a forum outcry for condi rev to be nerfed that changes are likely coming. Personally, I think the claims are overblown due to bad expereinces fighting it in 2v2, but others would disagree.

    Either way, IL doesn't overperform on power builds due to the reasons listed above. At best it helps give Rev a way to play around some of its weaknesses (subpar teamfight and vulnerability to condi pressure). If condi rev takes a hit it will no longer be a problematic spell.

    So Herald Facets, as I've been asking for myself because the Mallyx one is indeed overpowered.

    I can't play Core Condi Rev like I used to because the traits are bugged, I'd have to be Herald to achieve the same now which is extremely upsetting.

    No IL doesn't overperform on power but it wouldn't be useless either given proper use is still extremely effective. All I'm seeing is just Defiant Stance and Endure Pain mixed together, which I would like it to be 2 seconds with better healing in PvP so I'd feel less dirty getting more than I deserve. From the experience I've gathered with Core, going back to Herald occasionally really makes me feel spoiled aside the stunbreak nerf that should be 20 seconds. Should the facet of chaos get buffed on it's cooldown also at 20 seconds.

  • szeng.1267szeng.1267 Member ✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @szeng.1267
    you reading improperly every time is getting tiring to me honestly.
    ED has POTENTIAL to make 11k HP swing, never have I mentioned it doing it every time, depending on the enemy 4-8k is relistic.
    there is no point arguing with you, you will choose to ignore what I say, and you will read what you want to read.

    Oh I read your comment correctly. Let me show you how you are going about your argument.

    False Oasis is op because it heals 1.2k for 5 times for 6khp and also spawns mirror which does 1k dmg and apply weakness for 4s. In those 4s you could have taken 20k dmg but since they have weakness you blocked 10k of it. On top of that you get an ambush skill which you can use to deal another 5k dmg. On top of that you get a cloak which you can use to block another 5k. So False Oasis is worth 6+1+10+5+5= 27k hp value + 3/4s of 66% speed improvement + 5s of endurance + enemy loses 50% endurance regen for 4s. This sounds completely stupid doesn't it? Just because you put "Potential" in there doesn't make it any less stupid. This statement shouldn't have been made in the first place.

    I have no problem with you thinking IL is over performing. The only reason I singled you out and ignored others is because they are at least making somewhere realistic claims to back up their argument.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @szeng.1267 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @szeng.1267
    you reading improperly every time is getting tiring to me honestly.
    ED has POTENTIAL to make 11k HP swing, never have I mentioned it doing it every time, depending on the enemy 4-8k is relistic.
    there is no point arguing with you, you will choose to ignore what I say, and you will read what you want to read.

    Oh I read your comment correctly. Let me show you how you are going about your argument.

    False Oasis is op because it heals 1.2k for 5 times for 6khp and also spawns mirror which does 1k dmg and apply weakness for 4s. In those 4s you could have taken 20k dmg but since they have weakness you blocked 10k of it. On top of that you get an ambush skill which you can use to deal another 5k dmg. On top of that you get a cloak which you can use to block another 5k. So False Oasis is worth 6+1+10+5+5= 27k hp value + 3/4s of 66% speed improvement + 5s of endurance + enemy loses 50% endurance regen for 4s. This sounds completely stupid doesn't it? Just because you put "Potential" in there doesn't make it any less stupid. This statement shouldn't have been made in the first place.

    I have no problem with you thinking IL is over performing. The only reason I singled you out and ignored others is because they are at least making somewhere realistic claims to back up their argument.

    Mirages have one Evade.

    Revenant can do the same, if not better as False Oasis does.

  • Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭

    @NorthernRedStar.3054 said:
    It has counterplay, just don't attack. If that's something you're unable to do, well …

    Soooo you're saying either attack and give them HP or don't attack and... let them be invulnerable for 3 sec while they go on the offense? Yeah OP is right, that is not counterplay. Make it a channeled skill. Or, if it's still oppressive, make CC interrupt the channel.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2020

    @Shao.7236 said:

    No IL doesn't overperform on power but it wouldn't be useless either given proper use is still extremely effective. All I'm seeing is just Defiant Stance and Endure Pain mixed together, which I would like it to be 2 seconds with better healing in PvP so I'd feel less dirty getting more than I deserve. From the experience I've gathered with Core, going back to Herald occasionally really makes me feel spoiled aside the stunbreak nerf that should be 20 seconds. Should the facet of chaos get buffed on it's cooldown also at 20 seconds.

    I understand where you're coming from. It's basic human nature to look at two things are similar, notice one that is clearly better, and point it out as an outlier.

    However, lets think ahead to the scenario where condi rev gets nerfed. It's no longer a meta staple. Most revs go power. Lets look at the overall picture instead of comparing heal for heal. Does power rev have more sustain in its kit than warrior? How reliable is it's access to sustain?

    If Rev goes Shiro/Glint, both heals are counterplayable. IL isn't a guaranteed source a of sustain unless it's either teamfighting (An area where it can struggle, so not an issue) or if it's dueling a condi spec (a scenario where it must play carefully due to it's inherent weakness to condi pressure). Daggers can be evaded, dodged, or reflected. Factor this in, then factor in healing from passives, signets, traits ect.

    Compare that to Warrior. In order to dertermine if it's in line overall, I suggest also comparing Rev's overall sustain to Weaver, Ranger, Guardian, Necro, ect.

    I'd argue that it's in line.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    However, lets think ahead to the scenario where condi rev gets nerfed. It's no longer a meta staple. Most revs go power. Lets look at the overall picture instead of comparing heal for heal. Does power rev have more sustain in its kit than warrior? How reliable is it's access to sustain?

    Depends, Revenant has a lot of barrier/weakness/damage reduction if you play core. Herald has more utility to some extend and can benefit from core.
    If you ask the typical Shiro/Glint then comparatively Warrior is only superior in the beginning of the fight, as time goes Herald will surpass if played right.

    It's mandatory that people stop waiting to be at 5% health as Herald if they want to keep their momentum because that's where everything will fall short. People have no reason to be wary as much as when one is not at critical health compared half wounded, in fact having Infuse Light can play in favor of the players because nobody will dare bursting it if they know it's up, they'll want to tickle the Herald and that's when you can get those opportunities to be aggressive.

    To me as it stand, Core Revenant Power is the superior duelist in most of scenario's because of it's versatility that not even a warrior can have. Only thieves can really put the pressure on them.

  • FrownyClown.8402FrownyClown.8402 Member ✭✭✭

    If 1 heal skill is what is holding up revenant it's probably too strong. No one complained about it pre patch though which makes me think it's the combination of mallyx and glint that makes their sustain too high

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    If 1 heal skill is what is holding up revenant it's probably too strong. No one complained about it pre patch though which makes me think it's the combination of mallyx and glint that makes their sustain too high

    That's only one Herald condition build. I was playing that one in the 2 v 2 season, but now I'm ridding a Jalis/Mallyx Renegade and also saw people running core condition Rev. How is Infused Light (which has a clear call and only works on dummies) broken if is only present in one of the multiple builds that are being used? How can be Infused Light a problem except to bots which can't stop spamming attacks? Is like people advisedly entering in a Scourge shade: you known what you shouldn't do when you hear the whistle. Is broken the chess pawn because can be promoted to be a queen if reaches the 8th line? Or is fault of the adversary for not preventing it?

  • Zephoid.4263Zephoid.4263 Member ✭✭✭

    @Buran.3796 said:

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    If 1 heal skill is what is holding up revenant it's probably too strong. No one complained about it pre patch though which makes me think it's the combination of mallyx and glint that makes their sustain too high

    That's only one Herald condition build. I was playing that one in the 2 v 2 season, but now I'm ridding a Jalis/Mallyx Renegade and also saw people running core condition Rev. How is Infused Light (which has a clear call and only works on dummies) broken if is only present in one of the multiple builds that are being used? How can be Infused Light a problem except to bots which can't stop spamming attacks? Is like people advisedly entering in a Scourge shade: you known what you shouldn't do when you hear the whistle. Is broken the chess pawn because can be promoted to be a queen if reaches the 8th line? Or is fault of the adversary for not preventing it?

    You might want to read the, you know, 3 pages of comments detailing all the reasons why. Rather than spouting off on your own tangent. Please tell me how to turn off field pulsing and condis on target at a sec's notice. Please tell me how a minimum 3s invuln+ full heal vs condi with 30s cd and instant cast is balanced. Again, compare to consume conditions.

  • FrownyClown.8402FrownyClown.8402 Member ✭✭✭

    @Buran.3796 said:

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    If 1 heal skill is what is holding up revenant it's probably too strong. No one complained about it pre patch though which makes me think it's the combination of mallyx and glint that makes their sustain too high

    That's only one Herald condition build. I was playing that one in the 2 v 2 season, but now I'm ridding a Jalis/Mallyx Renegade and also saw people running core condition Rev. How is Infused Light (which has a clear call and only works on dummies) broken if is only present in one of the multiple builds that are being used? How can be Infused Light a problem except to bots which can't stop spamming attacks? Is like people advisedly entering in a Scourge shade: you known what you shouldn't do when you hear the whistle. Is broken the chess pawn because can be promoted to be a queen if reaches the 8th line? Or is fault of the adversary for not preventing it?

    I haven't really seen anyone running anything else in ranked except power shiro. 1v1 it's okay but in teamfights it can be a free 100% heal.

  • Eugchriss.2046Eugchriss.2046 Member ✭✭✭
    edited 3:21AM

    @Buran.3796 said:

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    If 1 heal skill is what is holding up revenant it's probably too strong. No one complained about it pre patch though which makes me think it's the combination of mallyx and glint that makes their sustain too high

    How is Infused Light (which has a clear call and only works on dummies) broken if is only present in one of the multiple builds that are being used? How can be Infused Light a problem except to bots which can't stop spamming attacks? Is like people advisedly entering in a Scourge shade: you known what you shouldn't do when you hear the whistle. Is broken the chess pawn because can be promoted to be a queen if reaches the 8th line? Or is fault of the adversary for not preventing it?

    read this:

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    All that OP needs to do is wait 3 seconds and he/she can get back to atack ...... more eyes less key bashing id say.

    Thank you for the advice but If only it was that simple....
    What most of you don t understand is that NOT ALL ATTACKS CAN BE STOWED. Condi, pets, spirits, turrets, wells, clones/phantasm, necro's marks, guard's symbols, traps. Basically everything that is not direct/no delay, power damage CAN T BE CANCELLED.

    Now, what do you think? Am I still a "dummy" or a spamming bot?

  • Eugchriss.2046Eugchriss.2046 Member ✭✭✭
    edited 3:21AM

    double post

  • Chungo.3169Chungo.3169 Member ✭✭
    edited 10:59AM

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    @Buran.3796 said:

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    If 1 heal skill is what is holding up revenant it's probably too strong. No one complained about it pre patch though which makes me think it's the combination of mallyx and glint that makes their sustain too high

    How is Infused Light (which has a clear call and only works on dummies) broken if is only present in one of the multiple builds that are being used? How can be Infused Light a problem except to bots which can't stop spamming attacks? Is like people advisedly entering in a Scourge shade: you known what you shouldn't do when you hear the whistle. Is broken the chess pawn because can be promoted to be a queen if reaches the 8th line? Or is fault of the adversary for not preventing it?

    read this:

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    All that OP needs to do is wait 3 seconds and he/she can get back to atack ...... more eyes less key bashing id say.

    Thank you for the advice but If only it was that simple....
    What most of you don t understand is that NOT ALL ATTACKS CAN BE STOWED. Condi, pets, spirits, turrets, wells, clones/phantasm, necro's marks, guard's symbols, traps. Basically everything that is not direct/no delay, power damage CAN T BE CANCELLED.

    Now, what do you think? Am I still a "dummy" or a spamming bot?

    If you are being carried by a construction like necro minion, mesmer, ranger ... Aoes ... in which you do not have full control of the attacks of your pets, I consider that IL is not OP since this mechanic of minions is helping you To be more offensive / defensive, this is the drawback of playing with pets against IL since they are receiving other benefits that rev does not have.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:

    I haven't really seen anyone running anything else in ranked except power shiro. 1v1 it's okay but in teamfights it can be a free 100% heal.

    Only saw a single power Shiro in 33 ranked matches in the current season.

    @Eugchriss: So pulsating damage over time as Guardian symbols and Necro marks are balanced, but a healing skill with a base heal of 1853 each 30 seconds which works based on enemies attacking you in a 3 second window is broken? Why not to try to not be carried BY PASSIVE SKILLS? That for sure should fix "your problem".

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited 12:54PM

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    @Buran.3796 said:

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    If 1 heal skill is what is holding up revenant it's probably too strong. No one complained about it pre patch though which makes me think it's the combination of mallyx and glint that makes their sustain too high

    How is Infused Light (which has a clear call and only works on dummies) broken if is only present in one of the multiple builds that are being used? How can be Infused Light a problem except to bots which can't stop spamming attacks? Is like people advisedly entering in a Scourge shade: you known what you shouldn't do when you hear the whistle. Is broken the chess pawn because can be promoted to be a queen if reaches the 8th line? Or is fault of the adversary for not preventing it?

    read this:

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    All that OP needs to do is wait 3 seconds and he/she can get back to atack ...... more eyes less key bashing id say.

    Thank you for the advice but If only it was that simple....
    What most of you don t understand is that NOT ALL ATTACKS CAN BE STOWED. Condi, pets, spirits, turrets, wells, clones/phantasm, necro's marks, guard's symbols, traps. Basically everything that is not direct/no delay, power damage CAN T BE CANCELLED.

    Now, what do you think? Am I still a "dummy" or a spamming bot?

    Neither nor! But you don't get the intention. Infuse light is a situational heal. It's not just "I press a button and get a heal". It has to be used under certain conditions to be effective. That's tricky for a heal skill which has to be ready on demand as you can not "plan" to use a heal at a certain point in the encounter. It depends on what your target does.

    Infuse light has drawbacks and strenghs like every other heal in the game too. There are heals on low cooldowns that heal only for a small amount or only over time. Then there are strong heals that have huge cooldowns or that weaken yourself. Infuse Light (and the warior stance heal too) are heals that can be strong in one scenario but extremely weak in another scenario. This is balanced. It would not be balanced if a spec that has tons of condi cleanses would also get the best anti condi heal on top. But exactly the opposite is the case with herald.

    Do you also complain about consume conditions (the necro heal that is strong against conditions)? That skill can heal you for 12k HP when it cleanses a condibomb. But it has a huge cast time and telegraph as drawback.

    Infuse light is not even good as an invunerability that covers a burst because the revenant will usually stop attacking to invite the target to attack to heal the rev. If the rev casts infuse light while attacking, then he risks that the targets switches into defense and does no damage at all to the rev, which wastes infuse light. So most of the time infuse light is just 3 seconds where nothing happens. The rev asks for damage and the target stows his weapon.