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Dragon Gender & Torment

I can't stop pondering this because there's consternation over both what Jormag's gender is and whether Jormag's intent is for good or ill. It's interesting that whilst the Forsaken couldn't break Kralkatorrik from his torment with their ritual, they were able to break Glint from hers, and Aurene is able to resist the torment completely. I feel that the torment itself plays a big role in all of this, I think that what the dragons have done thus far is either due to the affliction of the torment or out of an effort to resist it. What's fascinating is is that Jormag might be going a bit crazy with being overprotective because she doesn't want anyone to fall to one of the dragons who is afflicted with torment, and due to being fairly out-of-touch (which I'd say would be easy for an Elder Dragon) she doesn't realise why bringing everyone under her protection with mind control-like persuasion is bad.

"I'm protecting you. You'd want this if you understood what it was I was offering you, if you understood the dangers, if you understood what will happen to the world if we don't stand against the torment. I don't know how to explain this to you, so it's just far easier to opt for mental persuasion because you wouldn't be able to understand in time and I'm not going to limit your will in any way other than what I'd need to to protect you. Admittedly, some of my influence is making the mortal children xenophobic but once I have everyone under my sway there's going to be no 'them' to worry about other than the torment so that'll pass. It's just an unfortunate side effect of what I'm trying to do. I'm just tryign to protect you and you're too folish to realise that."

In other words Jormag is the hero of her own story. She sees the torment of Primordius and the deep sea-dwelling Elder Dragon and she's preparing for what it'll drive them to do. In other words, Jormag may not be fully resisting the torment but she might be more akin to Glint and Aurene than we realise. That the torment is nagging at her mind may be why she's so ardent about this approach because she knows how dangerous it is. Whatever the torment was originally created for, it now seems to want to enforce the cycle of destruction and creation. It afflicted Kralkatorrik with great pain and promised him that if he ended everything the pain too would cease.

It's looking more and more like the Elder Dragons are just patsies to the torment, something that Jormag wants no part of. Jormag wants the cycle of destruction and creation to end because that's standing in opposition to the torment. Kralkatorrik told us that Aurene is able to resist the torment for some reason and we know that after the Forgotten ritual Glint was able to as well. What if that's true of Jormag? What if Jormag broke herself free? Gender may play a role in this. The male approach to aggressive domination seems to serve the desires of torment better, so maybe that's why it's able to exert its will there more thoroughly. It's hard to say for sure but it seems like the more masculine dragons are all in with the torment whilst the more feminine ones aren't.

It'll be interesting to see where this goes.

Comments

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    I think the parallels you point to between the dragons that are presented more feminine vs masculine simply falls into old stereotypes about gender, and what traits and methods are viewed as more "female" or "male." Women are often pegged as being more manipulative, social, compromising, nurturing, etc, where as men are often associated with the opposite spectrum. So we see these stereotypes reflected in a lot of popular literature/media, and GW2 is no exception. Coincidentally, I think Jormag has a female VA because we've had three EDs who have all been attributed he/him pronouns and/or had male voice actors.

    Konig is correct though, Elder Dragons are technically genderless beings and in so far we know, it seems they reproduce asexually/magically. One of the devs has confirmed in Jormag's case that they are "non-binary" and don't fall into the traditional male-female binary. By and large, I think Jormag's VA being female is mostly to switch things up, and even then they warp the actress' voice to sound a bit more androgynous. Especially in the original Icebrood Saga trailer, it wasn't immediately easy to tell the gender of the VA. The last episode though, the vocal quality definitely sounded more feminine than before to me.

    I do enjoy the notion that Jormag thinks they're saving the world/mortal races though, but that their experience of time/reality/the world is so alien to us that they seem incomprehensible, sinister, and dangerous. Of course, I fully believe Jormag is an evil being, but I see them as lawful evil so far. They would be willing to accept compromise and want to be part of the new world order, and thus they're forging alliances. Jormag won't balk at doing "evil" things (if the EDs really have a concept of morality to begin with), but I think they can play by the rules -- and they have a clear interest in helping to establish those new, hypothetical rules.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Arguing what gender a dragon have is about the same as arguing what gender a mountain have.

    Not quite. After all, mountains don't breath, bleed, or breed.

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  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Arguing what gender a dragon have is about the same as arguing what gender a mountain have.

    Not quite. After all, mountains don't breath, bleed, or breed.

    A mountain can shake with an earthquake, erupt as a violent volcano and be just one of many in a mountain range created by the movement of the earth. Dragons are a force of nature. I would also argue they dont do anything of what you say either. At least not by human definition.

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  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think the gender question is only relevant to players who really give a kitten about what is ultimately a pointless attribute.
    Whether Elder Dragons are male or female or whatever really doesn't change anything important or relevant about them.

    Their personalities are going to be the same as are their capability to reproduce so whatever gender the mortals of Tyria want to attribute to genderless beings doesn't mean anything.
    Elder Dragons are ridiculously powerful creatures which are almost godlike in power so they likely could care less about what pronouns insigfnificant mortals use for them.

    So far the only instance of such a thing even being in the game has come from the commander who "corrects" a Charr (Bangar I think) about Aurine when she was referred to as an it.
    Frankly Aurine herself probably would not have cared about this as with all the important things going on in the world that she is paying attention to, this kind of thing would be so far into the realms of irrelevance that it would be complete pettyness for her to even dignify it with a response.

    As for the Torment side of things, this is a far more interesting area for conversation.
    I'm curious as to if we'll see more dragon torments in future and how different they will be, if they are at all.

    Kralkatorriks torment we know give him relentless hunger and great conflict within himself.
    Jormag as far as we know doesn't appear to be suffering from the same thing and seems at least to be far more in control of it's mind than the majorly unstable Kralkatorrik was.
    What we do know about Jormag though is that it lies and manipulates, betrays those it makes deals with etc which tends to suggest that Jormag's torment could be more related to mistrust and paranoia which would be far more in line with it's manipulative and controlling personality.. perhaps it's preference for it's subjects to choose corruption gives it piece of mind or something, after all those who would choose servitude/slavery willingly would be far more compliant than those forced into it.

    Then again Im not sure if it's confirmed yet that all dragons suffer from Torment, Kralkatorrik could very well be the only one although it's unlikely.

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    One clarification: The Forgotten's ritual wasn't related to the torment at all. It was used to give Glint free will, breaking her from Kralkatorrik's thrall. It was used on Kralkatorrik in hopes of purifying him, but his hunger and greed for magic was too strong that he resisted the ritual.

    Gender can't play a role in it because the Elder Dragons and their scions don't actually have biological male-female genders. This was established back in 2009 and is why Jormag is now called "non-binary". Technically, so was Mordremoth, Zhaitan, Primordus, and even Kralkatorrik. Glint, Aurene, and Vlast assumed genders because of their relations to mortals - but there's no reason for the Elder Dragons to do so, since they don't care about relating to them. Glint and Aurene do call Kralkatorrik male, pronouns but he never calls himself such. From a narrative perspective, this was likely done for the sake of drama and writing - after all, having lines like "Grandfather, look at me!" or "I am not him." sounds better than "Grandparent, look at me!" and "I am not them." (well, okay, the latter still works).

    You keep referring to Jormag as female, likely because Jormag's voice actor is female - same happens with Mordremoth even - but they're both genderless. Jormag doesn't care whether they're called he, she, or they (and undoubtedly doesn't mind being called it) so long as how they're called can further their goals.

    The "high dragons", as I dub them, have only shown signs of being asexual. This is why we hear nothing about Glint's mother, or Aurene's and Vlast's father. By all indication, there doesn't seem to be one.

    I always thought Mordremoth as the Father of Aurene.

    Thats why she had some similar features.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Arguing what gender a dragon have is about the same as arguing what gender a mountain have.

    Not quite. After all, mountains don't breath, bleed, or breed.

    A mountain can shake with an earthquake, erupt as a violent volcano and be just one of many in a mountain range created by the movement of the earth. Dragons are a force of nature. I would also argue they dont do anything of what you say either. At least not by human definition.

    Mordremoth was commented on breathing several times throughout HoT.

    Kralkatorrik bleeds, as that's how the Dragonsblood spear was made (and the yoke that Snaff created to mind-link him to Kralkatorrik). He also has a heartbeat, as experienced in Descent.

    And Glint is Kralkatorrik's child, so he breeded too.

    Is any of that correct though? We can easily describe a tree as bleeding when you stab it. It doesnt mean it has blood. And how do you know its actual breath and heartbeats and not just the dragon mimicking it in their physical form? Have you verified an elder dragon has lungs and veins? That it has any need for air to live and something to pump blood? The statement was also breeding, yes. As in a sexual action that requires gender. Did the elder dragons do the nasty? Or did Kralkatorrik just Thanos snap Glint into existance? Do we know?

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    Is any of that correct though? We can easily describe a tree as bleeding when you stab it. It doesnt mean it has blood. And how do you know its actual breath and heartbeats and not just the dragon mimicking it in their physical form? Have you verified an elder dragon has lungs and veins? That it has any need for air to live and something to pump blood? The statement was also breeding, yes. As in a sexual action that requires gender. Did the elder dragons do the nasty? Or did Kralkatorrik just Thanos snap Glint into existance? Do we know?

    So, where does this put the sylvari (and possibly the other plant creatures, although I have no idea how they reproduce) in your opinion? Since they have no heart and their "blood" is, in fact, sap. And they don't sexually reproduce (which apparently doesn't prevent them from having sexes and genders).

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  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2020

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:
    I can't stop pondering this because there's consternation over both what Jormag's gender is and whether Jormag's intent is for good or ill. It's interesting that whilst the Forsaken couldn't break Kralkatorrik from his torment with their ritual, they were able to break Glint from hers, and Aurene is able to resist the torment completely. I feel that the torment itself plays a big role in all of this, I think that what the dragons have done thus far is either due to the affliction of the torment or out of an effort to resist it. What's fascinating is is that Jormag might be going a bit crazy with being overprotective because she doesn't want anyone to fall to one of the dragons who is afflicted with torment, and due to being fairly out-of-touch (which I'd say would be easy for an Elder Dragon) she doesn't realise why bringing everyone under her protection with mind control-like persuasion is bad.

    "I'm protecting you. You'd want this if you understood what it was I was offering you, if you understood the dangers, if you understood what will happen to the world if we don't stand against the torment. I don't know how to explain this to you, so it's just far easier to opt for mental persuasion because you wouldn't be able to understand in time and I'm not going to limit your will in any way other than what I'd need to to protect you. Admittedly, some of my influence is making the mortal children xenophobic but once I have everyone under my sway there's going to be no 'them' to worry about other than the torment so that'll pass. It's just an unfortunate side effect of what I'm trying to do. I'm just tryign to protect you and you're too folish to realise that."

    In other words Jormag is the hero of her own story. She sees the torment of Primordius and the deep sea-dwelling Elder Dragon and she's preparing for what it'll drive them to do. In other words, Jormag may not be fully resisting the torment but she might be more akin to Glint and Aurene than we realise. That the torment is nagging at her mind may be why she's so ardent about this approach because she knows how dangerous it is. Whatever the torment was originally created for, it now seems to want to enforce the cycle of destruction and creation. It afflicted Kralkatorrik with great pain and promised him that if he ended everything the pain too would cease.

    It's looking more and more like the Elder Dragons are just patsies to the torment, something that Jormag wants no part of. Jormag wants the cycle of destruction and creation to end because that's standing in opposition to the torment. Kralkatorrik told us that Aurene is able to resist the torment for some reason and we know that after the Forgotten ritual Glint was able to as well. What if that's true of Jormag? What if Jormag broke herself free? Gender may play a role in this. The male approach to aggressive domination seems to serve the desires of torment better, so maybe that's why it's able to exert its will there more thoroughly. It's hard to say for sure but it seems like the more masculine dragons are all in with the torment whilst the more feminine ones aren't.

    It'll be interesting to see where this goes.

    This might be an unpopular opinion, but here goes...

    My gut feeling about this "torment" thing is that it's due, in part, to the overlap of the various magics. Right now we have been presented with the idea that magic is like light. So, it consists of red magic, blue magic, and green magic. The extent to which torment affects a dragon might be linked to the number of colors that it can combine. So, Primordus and Bubbles experience the most torment; Kralkatorrik and Mordremoth experience quite a bit of torment; Zaithan and Jormag experience the least torment, perhaps none at all.

    Then there's Aurene. We tend to think that she doesn't experience torment, or that she won't ever experience torment. It's quite possible. As a hybrid dragon, inheriting traits from Mordy (green-yellow) and Kralk (purple), she has the genetics to help her metabolize torment in a similar manner to Jormag.

    In fact, Jormag's true form may be similar to Aurene's; they may both be breathtakingly beautiful. Hence, Gorrik's statement that Aurene is some kind of new "prismatic" dragon is probably wrong. Jormag, like Aurene, is "prismatic" in that it can combine the various magics to generate an incredibly pure form of white light.

    I guess the long and short of this is that Aurene isn't as unique as the Free Peoples of Tyria think, and that an Elder Dragon's ability to metabolize torment isn't just about the gender with which they identify. For Zaithan, the first dragon to fall, was definitely incredibly capable, perhaps the most capable, of the Elder Dragons. It fielded a large army and strategically worked toward specific military goals, doubtless to benefit both itself and it's fellows.

    I believe that, when we finally see Jormag's true form, it will be one of the most amazing things that we have ever witnessed. It gets me thinking: Has Bangar seen Jormag's form? Or has he heard legends from others? Does he know something about Jormag that we don't? Perhaps seeing Jormag's higher form really would drive someone like Bangar mad for Jormag.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anninke.7469 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    Is any of that correct though? We can easily describe a tree as bleeding when you stab it. It doesnt mean it has blood. And how do you know its actual breath and heartbeats and not just the dragon mimicking it in their physical form? Have you verified an elder dragon has lungs and veins? That it has any need for air to live and something to pump blood? The statement was also breeding, yes. As in a sexual action that requires gender. Did the elder dragons do the nasty? Or did Kralkatorrik just Thanos snap Glint into existance? Do we know?

    So, where does this put the sylvari (and possibly the other plant creatures, although I have no idea how they reproduce) in your opinion? Since they have no heart and their "blood" is, in fact, sap. And they don't sexually reproduce (which apparently doesn't prevent them from having sexes and genders).

    You just proved the point. The "gender" of a Sylvari is selected by the Pale Tree based on its interpretation of the shape and functionality of human biology.

    Ie its completely fake. They dont have real genders. Its like putting a banana in your pants and declaring "I am now male!". I mean you can still use it for certain purposes...

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Arguing what gender a dragon have is about the same as arguing what gender a mountain have.

    Mountains are usually given female pronouns for some reason (read that it's probably due to ancient people thinking mountains are giant goddess or deities)

    I think arguing about a Dragon's gender is the same as arguing about the gender of a roll of toilet paper.

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2020

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Arguing what gender a dragon have is about the same as arguing what gender a mountain have.

    Not quite. After all, mountains don't breath, bleed, or breed.

    A mountain can shake with an earthquake, erupt as a violent volcano and be just one of many in a mountain range created by the movement of the earth. Dragons are a force of nature. I would also argue they dont do anything of what you say either. At least not by human definition.

    Mordremoth was commented on breathing several times throughout HoT.

    Kralkatorrik bleeds, as that's how the Dragonsblood spear was made (and the yoke that Snaff created to mind-link him to Kralkatorrik). He also has a heartbeat, as experienced in Descent.

    And Glint is Kralkatorrik's child, so he breeded too.

    Is any of that correct though? We can easily describe a tree as bleeding when you stab it. It doesnt mean it has blood. And how do you know its actual breath and heartbeats and not just the dragon mimicking it in their physical form? Have you verified an elder dragon has lungs and veins? That it has any need for air to live and something to pump blood? The statement was also breeding, yes. As in a sexual action that requires gender. Did the elder dragons do the nasty? Or did Kralkatorrik just Thanos snap Glint into existance? Do we know?

    I mean, we literally see Kralkatorrik bleeding and hear its heartbeat indicating it still lived. And we know they reproduce because they have children.

    Can't get much more verification than literally witnessing it first hand.

    And no, reproduction does not require more than one sexes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asexual_reproduction

    I imagine with Elder Dragons, it's some magical variation of Parthenogenesis. Granted I'm no biologist, so my understanding may be off and I may be drastically incorrect.

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @anninke.7469 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    Is any of that correct though? We can easily describe a tree as bleeding when you stab it. It doesnt mean it has blood. And how do you know its actual breath and heartbeats and not just the dragon mimicking it in their physical form? Have you verified an elder dragon has lungs and veins? That it has any need for air to live and something to pump blood? The statement was also breeding, yes. As in a sexual action that requires gender. Did the elder dragons do the nasty? Or did Kralkatorrik just Thanos snap Glint into existance? Do we know?

    So, where does this put the sylvari (and possibly the other plant creatures, although I have no idea how they reproduce) in your opinion? Since they have no heart and their "blood" is, in fact, sap. And they don't sexually reproduce (which apparently doesn't prevent them from having sexes and genders).

    You just proved the point. The "gender" of a Sylvari is selected by the Pale Tree based on its interpretation of the shape and functionality of human biology.

    Ie its completely fake. They dont have real genders. Its like putting a banana in your pants and declaring "I am now male!". I mean you can still use it for certain purposes...

    That seems a bit of a strawman argument in relation to the Elder Dragon topic. Being asexual / genderless / non-binary (whatever terminology would be most accurate), is not the same as "genders and sexes are false".

    And anninke was talking about more than just gender, but the bleeding and breathing parts too. Mountains are inanimate objects, made of rocks and other inorganic materials. Elder Dragons - and sylvari - are made out of organic material. They breath, they bleed, and, in the case of dragons, they also reproduce.

    They're not inorganic entities, they're fully organic. Even if they're non-standard organics.

    Unlike mountains and toilet papers.

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  • Valmir.4590Valmir.4590 Member ✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Arguing what gender a dragon have is about the same as arguing what gender a mountain have.

    Mountains are usually given female pronouns for some reason (read that it's probably due to ancient people thinking mountains are giant goddess or deities)

    I think arguing about a Dragon's gender is the same as arguing about the gender of a roll of toilet paper.

    It really depends on the language. Most of the name of mountains in France (and thus in french) are male, for instance.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @anninke.7469 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    Is any of that correct though? We can easily describe a tree as bleeding when you stab it. It doesnt mean it has blood. And how do you know its actual breath and heartbeats and not just the dragon mimicking it in their physical form? Have you verified an elder dragon has lungs and veins? That it has any need for air to live and something to pump blood? The statement was also breeding, yes. As in a sexual action that requires gender. Did the elder dragons do the nasty? Or did Kralkatorrik just Thanos snap Glint into existance? Do we know?

    So, where does this put the sylvari (and possibly the other plant creatures, although I have no idea how they reproduce) in your opinion? Since they have no heart and their "blood" is, in fact, sap. And they don't sexually reproduce (which apparently doesn't prevent them from having sexes and genders).

    You just proved the point. The "gender" of a Sylvari is selected by the Pale Tree based on its interpretation of the shape and functionality of human biology.

    Ie its completely fake. They dont have real genders. Its like putting a banana in your pants and declaring "I am now male!". I mean you can still use it for certain purposes...

    In regards to Sylvari their phsyical gender IE S word (would probably get censored here) is completely irrlevant for multiple reasons.

    Firstly they cannot reproduce so the difference between male and female sylvari is purely cosmetic and not in any way biologically functional or neccessary.

    Secondly Sylvari gender doesn't factor into any relevant roles or even attraction and relationships.
    All Sylvari as far as we know have no gender preference when it comes to relationships, intimacy or anything like that which would be relevant for most other species.
    Sylvari romance is rather based on a connection between two Sylvari and pretty much nothing else, it doesn't matter to them what their mate looks like or what physical gender they represent or even morality, it's entirely about who that person is instead and the connection between them.

    Caithe and Faolain are a good example, no matter how many times they opposed each other and choose different paths they still loved each other and were drawn to one another, and that only changed after Faolain was corrupted by Mordremoth and Caithe finally regarded her as dead, which is why she had little trouble with killing her in the end but could never bring herself to do it before no matter how evil she was.

    In many ways you could also say that Sylvari are also technically genderless beings because of this, although they do physically mimic bigendered humans, gender is still a concept that serves no actual relevance to them.

    As for dragons well they reproduce solo and need no companions or mates.. Glint layed eggs and 2 of them we know hatched and we also know that Glint came from Kralkatorrik and Kralkatorrik too was also born and had a mother so it's a pretty safe bet that this entire bloodline of Dragons both came from and are capable of laying eggs.
    The real questions there is whether or not they retain that ability after becoming Elder Dragons and whether Glint was born before or after Kralkatorrik become a Elder Dragon.. we don't know how old Glint is but we do know she was around during the last Elder Dragon rising, possibly more before that but that's not been confirmed.

    Considering though that Elder Dragons have been around for a very, very long and there is little to no evidence of them actually reproducing outside of Glint then there's a chance that becoming an Elder Dragon does stop the ability to produce eggs, reproducing being pointless to immortals not to mention the physical changes the dragon's body would go though as we've seen first hand with Aurine.
    Dragon Champions can come in as a coutner to this however we know for a fact that Zhaitans and Kralkatorriks Dragon Champions were created not born and it's also expected that it's the same for Shadow of the Dragon and Claw of Jormag as well, not real corrupted dragons but mearly powerful constructs.
    The only Dragons that come to mind as real born ones that still exist are the Canthan Saltspreys which don't have much of an origin story right now and most fo them were corrupted in the Jade Wind too so there probably aren't many of them around these days either unless they've managed to repopulate over the years.

  • Drgnfly.5812Drgnfly.5812 Member ✭✭
    edited March 24, 2020

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Is any of that correct though? We can easily describe a tree as bleeding when you stab it. It doesnt mean it has blood. And how do you know its actual breath and heartbeats and not just the dragon mimicking it in their physical form? Have you verified an elder dragon has lungs and veins? That it has any need for air to live and something to pump blood? The statement was also breeding, yes. As in a sexual action that requires gender. Did the elder dragons do the nasty? Or did Kralkatorrik just Thanos snap Glint into existance? Do we know?

    These are very interesting concepts being discussed here. Are the Elder Dragons "alive"? I suppose the first step would be to give a biological definition to the word Life from a Tyrian perspective. I would submit that our current biological definition would be most useful here. A thing could be considered alive if it is composed of cells that metabolizes magics, that grows and responds to the environment, and that regulates an internal state with the capability of replication and adaptation. Using this definition I believe we can consider both Elder Dragons and Sylvari to be alive. The Risen, the Awakened, ghosts, and other necromantic minions do not seem to completely fulfill this definition and are therefore are classified as undead.

    The next question would be "Do all living things (organisms) in Tyria have a sex?". Sex is a label often used to describe the biological reproductive characteristics of an organism. Based of the information presented within the game, we can see that multiple types of reproductive characteristics should exist within Tyria. Humans appear to have the typical types of sexual characteristics found IRL. But Sylvari are born forth from the Pale Tree and sexual characteristics are more ambiguous. Sylvari seem to be produced through a magically induced system of asexual reproduction. Sylvari may therefore be considered magically motile fruit capable of interaction with other creatures. I theorize Sylvari are not so much individuals but divergent physical expressions of the Pale Tree itself.

    Elder Dragons are different problem unto themselves when it comes sex determination. Because they are portrayed to be such ancient entities shrouded in both mystery and power many of the following statements are admittedly conjecture. We have evidence of a singular dragon, Glint, producing eggs. It is generally accepted that egg production is a female characteristic. If we found evidence that Jormag, Mordremoth, or any other dragon created eggs then we should consider that dragon to be female. Since we do not know how dragon's reproduce such a distinction is probably meaningless. However, my theory is that the dragons of Tyria are haplodiploids. Their unfertilized eggs become male and thereby give rise to creations such as Vlast. Fertilized dragon eggs create female dragons and give rise rise to creatures such as Aurene. And here we might unexpectedly have caught a glimpse of Glint's overall plan. Glint wanted Mordremoth to fertilize her egg! To create a new dragon that could take Glint's place an Elder Dragon had to die. So Glint manipulated the Commander into fulfilling her desire! Clever Glint predicting the future then plotting to make it so. ;)

    What does this tell us about Jormag? Admittedly not much of anything. The story still needs to unfold. But what if Jormag is female? What if Glint inadvertently taught Jormag how to create her own female Scion? What if this story goes deeper than we think? What secrets might rise to the surface? I have really high hopes that I am on the right track. Because imagine if Jormag wants to create a dragon to balance the existence of Aurene, who would she use? Primordus or the DSD?

    "There is little love for those of my kind in this place, yet I am here to help save them all. To those who matter, actions speak louder than words and my actions shall echo across this city for eternity until all recognize the honor of the Tengu race." ~ Talon Silverwing

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Zhaitan, Mordy and Kralk all had male voices, and NPCs in game referred to them with male or neutral pronouns.

    Jormag deliberately does not choose a gender and whispers in many voices; I have heard both male and female whispers at different times in game. Jormag will use whatever gender and voice gets you to listen. The Sons of Svanir see Jormag as male, but to everyone else, Jormag is simply "IT", and rightly so.

    There seems to be a broad assumption that Primordus is male, probably because the "-us" ending makes the name sound masculine (it's a masculine form in Latin). But we have never heard Primordus speak and information about Primordus is relatively scarce compared to the other dragons.

    DSD is a complete mystery.

    Vlast spoke and was referred to as male. Glint's voice and references were female, as are Aurene's.

    Glint and Vlast were Kralk's scions. We don't know who or what their "mother" was, if they had any. Similarly, we don't know who or what Aurene's "father" was.

    I'm wondering if the Elder Dragons have scions by parthenogenesis -- or even WHY they have scions, for that matter. Apparently Kralk wanted his to be super minions, but it didn't work out that way. And so far as we know, Kralk is the ONLY ED so far to produce scions.

    Many mysteries...

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    Glint and Vlast were Kralk's scions. We don't know who or what their "mother" was, if they had any. Similarly, we don't know who or what Aurene's "father" was.

    Agree with pretty much all you're saying, but an important note is that Vlast was Glint's first scion, with Aurene being her second (and Vlast being her elder sibling, essentially).

    A shame he had barely any screentime.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2020

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    Zhaitan, Mordy and Kralk all had male voices, and NPCs in game referred to them with male or neutral pronouns.

    Zhaitan doesn't have a voice, but it's screeches were high pitched compared to Mordremoth, Kralkatorrik, or Primordus, so I imagine if Zhaitan did have a voice, it'd have a female voice actor.

    There seems to be a broad assumption that Primordus is male, probably because the "-us" ending makes the name sound masculine (it's a masculine form in Latin). But we have never heard Primordus speak and information about Primordus is relatively scarce compared to the other dragons.

    I don't think there's any such assumption, just that the English language has a long-standing history of denoting figures with unknown gender as masculine. This has been changing in the past decade with gender movement, to be more utilizing the formerly less common "they", though, but overall Primordus is never actively given a gender, much like Zhaitan.

    Glint and Vlast were Kralk's scions. We don't know who or what their "mother" was, if they had any. Similarly, we don't know who or what Aurene's "father" was.

    As mentioned by @Svennis.3852, Vlast was Glint's scion - Glint didn't have any siblings (known to us players).

    I'm wondering if the Elder Dragons have scions by parthenogenesis -- or even WHY they have scions, for that matter. Apparently Kralk wanted his to be super minions, but it didn't work out that way. And so far as we know, Kralk is the ONLY ED so far to produce scions.

    Maybe not - the Mordrem Spitfires seen in Dragon's Stand are internally called "Lesser Mordremoth Heads", and have an appearance bearing heavy resemblance to Mordremoth which may signify that these were also scions born from Mordremoth's true body (the Mouth of Mordremoth). Unless Mordremoth was secretly some sort of Beholder thing, a bundle of snakes with many, many small heads.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Jimbru.6014 said:
    I'm wondering if the Elder Dragons have scions by parthenogenesis -- or even WHY they have scions, for that matter. Apparently Kralk wanted his to be super minions, but it didn't work out that way. And so far as we know, Kralk is the ONLY ED so far to produce scions.

    If we are to accept that the sex determination of the Elder Dragons is anything other than female then parthenogenesis would not be a good description. Parthenogenesis specifically refers to reproduction from an ovum, a female reproductive cell.

    As far as Kralkatorrik being the only Elder Dragon to produce scions there is no lore or information from developers to support that statement. Glint was a champion and scion of the Elder Dragon Kralkatorrik, but she was not the only champion and therefore possibly not the only scion. Unless definitive statements are given about the other champions (Drakkar, Tequatl, The Great Destroyer, et al.) or the Elder Dragons themselves then we have to entertain the possibility that these champions are scions of the Elder Dragons too.

    "There is little love for those of my kind in this place, yet I am here to help save them all. To those who matter, actions speak louder than words and my actions shall echo across this city for eternity until all recognize the honor of the Tengu race." ~ Talon Silverwing

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    I would argue that a scion is a direct continuation of that dragon’s line. Kralk > glint > vlast and Aurene are all “crystal” dragons and share inherent biological traits and/or hereditary abilities. We haven’t learned of any offspring/scions of other EDs yet, but a scion is specifically defined as the offspring of an ED on the wiki, whereas a Champion is not. In so far as I can fell, a champion is simply another being corrupted/uplifted by an ED (though clearly a scion can also be an ED champion).

    Perhaps some champions are created by an ED, but if so these are not defined as being the result of reproduction like Kralk and Glint’s scions.

    And that’s just thus far. The writers could drop a lore bomb that reveals Teq was Zhaitan’s child/scion at any time, etc. lol

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2020

    I'm going to ignore that ANET deliberately did this to appease the LGBT pride era.

    I'm going to ignore this because people at ANET somehow suddenly needed to make sure that gender neutrality is represented. It's pretty clear that ANET doesn't understand the difference between sex and gender. And decided "well let's call Jormag an it" so we don't offend people. People can't seem to grasp the concept that male and female don't mean man and woman respectively. Masculinity and feminism arent things that decide your private parts.

    And despite my protests at the time about how disrespectful it actually was to the LGBT community as an insipid stunt to need to feel some sort of pride for their sexual orientation, nobody looked to reason, and the media just kept the hype wagon going hard enough that ANET even showed pictures on Reddit of their attempts to make dialogue more gender neutral because apparently even that was so offensive.

    It seemed that nobody realized that actual LGBT people just want to be seen as normal and accepted, not actually celebrated for their sexual orientation. And when I argued this with people who quite obviously weren't LGBT to begin with, I kept getting censored violently by ANET and reported for harassment by idiots.

    People are extremely fickle, and now it's apparently an issue that people have a sudden need to feel representation for something they're a part of, and this could be some stupid kitten like sexual orientation to literally the soap you shower with (although extreme it is literally going down that road). I literally had this guy telling me black people need more respresentation in the world because racism is so rampant, and if I didn't agree that made me a racist.

    I'm not saying that ANET shouldn't have made the dragon a genderless entity despite the other dragons having clear ones. I'm simply saying their reason for making Jormag genderless was wrong. I'm not sure if any more of these toxic employees advocating this behavior still exists at ANET but if it happens again I'm determined to just leave the game.

    They didn't just do it with Jormag either, there are in fact other examples of them doing this kitten. Taimi is one, she's apparently supposed to represent the crippled---err sorry-- too offensive, the physically disabled!

    Let's just keep it simple and ignore that part. Let's say Jormag came from out of nowhere and IT never had a parent. Let's say this is the "special" dragon for now. This is what happens when you trade emphasis on the fun of the game in exchange for emphasis on it being a political stunt...which is stupid.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    Woof. That tea is just... cold. It’s frigid. Jormag just corrupted that tea into Icebrood.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Drgnfly.5812 said:
    As far as Kralkatorrik being the only Elder Dragon to produce scions there is no lore or information from developers to support that statement. Glint was a champion and scion of the Elder Dragon Kralkatorrik, but she was not the only champion and therefore possibly not the only scion. Unless definitive statements are given about the other champions (Drakkar, Tequatl, The Great Destroyer, et al.) or the Elder Dragons themselves then we have to entertain the possibility that these champions are scions of the Elder Dragons too.

    It is confirmed that Glint is Kralkatorriks Scion and she came from Kralkatorrik but it is to my knowledge not confirmed if she was born before or after Kralkatorrik became and Elder Dragon.
    We do know that Kralkatorrik was also born from a mother and from that can also speculate that Kralkatorrik was at one point in time a normal Dragon and not an Elder Dragon.

    The fact that Elder Dragons are immortal and can create minions and various other creatures does suggest that reproduction is pretty irrelevant for them so Im leaning more to the idea that Glint was born before Kralkatorrik became and Elder Dragon and he likely did to Glint what Aurine did with Caithe before he was corrupted by torment and became what he did.. Glint's "connection" as Caithe described it becoming corruption instead.

    As for the other Champions it is confirmed on the wiki pages for some of them that Dragon Champions like Shatterer and Tequatl were not corrupted beings, they were created by their Elder Dragons to be powerful Champions and it's speculated that others like Shadow of the Dragon and Claw of Jormag were also created as well.
    That would make Glint more unique as far as Dragon Champions go.

    I guess unique also applies to Aurine in this case too since her Champion is an uncorrupted mortal.. I.E us lol

  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    I'm going to ignore that ANET deliberately did this to appease the LGBT pride era.

    I'm going to ignore this because people at ANET somehow suddenly needed to make sure that gender neutrality is represented. It's pretty clear that ANET doesn't understand the difference between sex and gender. And decided "well let's call Jormag an it" so we don't offend people. People can't seem to grasp the concept that male and female don't mean man and woman respectively. Masculinity and feminism arent things that decide your private parts.

    And despite my protests at the time about how disrespectful it actually was to the LGBT community as an insipid stunt to need to feel some sort of pride for their sexual orientation, nobody looked to reason, and the media just kept the hype wagon going hard enough that ANET even showed pictures on Reddit of their attempts to make dialogue more gender neutral because apparently even that was so offensive.

    It seemed that nobody realized that actual LGBT people just want to be seen as normal and accepted, not actually celebrated for their sexual orientation. And when I argued this with people who quite obviously weren't LGBT to begin with, I kept getting censored violently by ANET and reported for harassment by idiots.

    People are extremely fickle, and now it's apparently an issue that people have a sudden need to feel representation for something they're a part of, and this could be some stupid kitten like sexual orientation to literally the soap you shower with (although extreme it is literally going down that road). I literally had this guy telling me black people need more respresentation in the world because racism is so rampant, and if I didn't agree that made me a racist.

    I'm not saying that ANET shouldn't have made the dragon a genderless entity despite the other dragons having clear ones. I'm simply saying their reason for making Jormag genderless was wrong. I'm not sure if any more of these toxic employees advocating this behavior still exists at ANET but if it happens again I'm determined to just leave the game.

    They didn't just do it with Jormag either, there are in fact other examples of them doing this kitten. Taimi is one, she's apparently supposed to represent the crippled---err sorry-- too offensive, the physically disabled!

    Let's just keep it simple and ignore that part. Let's say Jormag came from out of nowhere and IT never had a parent. Let's say this is the "special" dragon for now. This is what happens when you trade emphasis on the fun of the game in exchange for emphasis on it being a political stunt...which is stupid.

    But the elder dragons have always been called "it" and they were always considered genderless. Even though they had male voice actors. I actually think it's the other way around and they've got genders assigned just recently (in-game) and I'd assume it's at least partially because a "he(she)-enemy" is somehow better to understand and deal with than an "alienish-it-enemy" for those who need to fight them (and maybe Aurene and Glint being around mortals a bit too much). As for out of game... I guess we just usually tend to see dragons as male cratures, hm, traditionally? Well, in my first language "a dragon" is a male noun (we do, however have male and female nouns for various types of dragons).

    What I do mind, though, is calling Jormag "they" instead of "it". But that's my personal problem, i guess.

    Do not fear difficulty. Hard ground makes sore feet.
    All things...grow. And the blossom bothers the weed.
    Act with wisdom and axe.

  • @Svennis.3852 said:
    but a scion is specifically defined as the offspring of an ED on the wiki, whereas a Champion is not. In so far as I can fell, a champion is simply another being corrupted/uplifted by an ED (though clearly a scion can also be an ED champion).

    I am in total agreement here. In places where it is obvious (for instance Fraenir) or it strains credulity (for instance the Branded Devourer Queen) I would maintain that these champions are not scions of any particular ED. But when we discuss other draconic entities, like Tequatl, then the possibility that they are descendants from or at least magical grafts of the EDs has to be considered. Which is why I assert statements like "Kralk is the ONLY ED so far to produce scions." is a step to far.

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    I'm going to ignore that ANET deliberately did this to appease the LGBT pride era.

    Your whole post comes across as defensive and verging on hostile to me. Not necessarily towards LGBT people but perhaps to the idea of the inclusion of LGBT images in a MMORPG. I'm not quite sure what to make of your post in a lore forum, but I would like to make a singular point. This isn't real. These characters are fabrications. Jormag, Aurene, Almorra, Snaff, Eir, and all other characters are meant to portray concepts so as to tell a story, not be arguments for LGBT inclusion. I believe AN is being inclusive simply so that they might reach as broad an audience as possible. I don't really think there is some sinister, malicious, or offensive intent originating from the developers and producers of this game. Is it necessary to touch on gender identity, perhaps not. But for someone who is transgender perhaps the inclusion of a powerful entity that appears gender fluid or is non-conforming is a source of enjoyment for them. I myself would rather focus on the lore and development of the story than argue about which character traits are necessary.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    It is confirmed that Glint is Kralkatorriks Scion and she came from Kralkatorrik but it is to my knowledge not confirmed if she was born before or after Kralkatorrik became and Elder Dragon.
    We do know that Kralkatorrik was also born from a mother and from that can also speculate that Kralkatorrik was at one point in time a normal Dragon and not an Elder Dragon.

    These are wonderful ideas to speculate on. Developing ideas about how the EDs reproduce could open up all sorts of threads with regards to motivation. I will admit I am always a sucker for the "fallen" character trope. Perhaps part of the elevating to ED and the ultimate torment of Kralk was that he consumed his mother. Perhaps he consumed other scions in a desire to feed on magic. Perhaps Kralk is driven by an addiction and is "strung out" on the magics with an unquenchable thirst. Ultimately all of these points are unknown until we get more direction from the developers. I would love to discuss the torments of all these dragons. But perhaps in another thread as I think we have drifted from the original point from Hypnowulf.7403.

    "There is little love for those of my kind in this place, yet I am here to help save them all. To those who matter, actions speak louder than words and my actions shall echo across this city for eternity until all recognize the honor of the Tengu race." ~ Talon Silverwing

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    -snipping pointlessly antagonizing and simple-minded kitten-

    The Elder Dragons were considered genderless and were called "it" since 2009.

    There wasn't any pleasing, so get your kitten out of your head.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Drgnfly.5812 said:

    @Svennis.3852 said:
    but a scion is specifically defined as the offspring of an ED on the wiki, whereas a Champion is not. In so far as I can fell, a champion is simply another being corrupted/uplifted by an ED (though clearly a scion can also be an ED champion).

    I am in total agreement here. In places where it is obvious (for instance Fraenir) or it strains credulity (for instance the Branded Devourer Queen) I would maintain that these champions are not scions of any particular ED. But when we discuss other draconic entities, like Tequatl, then the possibility that they are descendants from or at least magical grafts of the EDs has to be considered. Which is why I assert statements like "Kralk is the ONLY ED so far to produce scions." is a step to far.

    As I posted above we know that Tequatl (as well as Zhaitans other Dragon like Champions) and the Shatter were created by their respective Elder Dragons.
    They were not corrupted beings or born in the traditional sense but constructed.
    It's speculated the same is true for Shadow of the Dragon and Claws of Jormag too which would make sense really.
    Taking into account that Primordus essentially crafts all his minions too including his Destroyer champions it would make sense that corruption isn't the only method they have to create minions.
    Kralkatorrik is currently the only EDragon we know of so far who has produced living Scions via reproduction and who had some kind of mother but that could change as we learn more about them in the future and I expect that all the Elder Dragons have similar origins hidden away in the mystery of their past.
    Exciting story for sure ^^

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    It is confirmed that Glint is Kralkatorriks Scion and she came from Kralkatorrik but it is to my knowledge not confirmed if she was born before or after Kralkatorrik became and Elder Dragon.
    We do know that Kralkatorrik was also born from a mother and from that can also speculate that Kralkatorrik was at one point in time a normal Dragon and not an Elder Dragon.

    These are wonderful ideas to speculate on. Developing ideas about how the EDs reproduce could open up all sorts of threads with regards to motivation. I will admit I am always a sucker for the "fallen" character trope. Perhaps part of the elevating to ED and the ultimate torment of Kralk was that he consumed his mother. Perhaps he consumed other scions in a desire to feed on magic. Perhaps Kralk is driven by an addiction and is "strung out" on the magics with an unquenchable thirst. Ultimately all of these points are unknown until we get more direction from the developers. I would love to discuss the torments of all these dragons. But perhaps in another thread as I think we have drifted from the original point from Hypnowulf.7403.

    I enjoy a good fallen trope too as well as self sacrifice trope.
    First time I remember that hitting me was when I was a young kid and I first watched Black Cauldren.. Gurgi sacrificing himself to save his only friends got me right in the child feels hahaha

    Im looking forward to learning more about Dragon Torment too, Kralk is the only one we know of who had one so far but if the others do as well then I wonder how it will manifest.
    I've made several posts in the past regarding Jormag's torment possibly manifesting as Paranoia which might explain it's behaviour of manipulating and betraying those it made deals with.. it could also be the reason why we've seen so many people succuming to Paranoia, vigil members stating they cannot trust their allies and listening to Jormag who promises them protection etc
    This could be Jormag projecting it's own paranoia on others, breaking them and making them loyal to it

    One trait of PPD (Paranoid Personality Disorder) is being cold and distant which often leads to them becoming controlling and jealous which is pretty fitting for the Elder Dragon of Ice right xD
    Jealous of Aurine, cold and distant being quite literal in Jormags case and controlling fits the dragon perfectly.
    Some other traits being:
    Always believing they are right (Elder Dragons in a nutshell)
    Doubting loyalties of others (Hence the need to break their victims mentally and corruption of only the most loyal minions)
    Believing others are exploiting or deceiving them. (Gotta control them so they don't exploit me.. Makes sense for Jormag)
    Are Hostile, stubbon and argumentative (Hostile definitely, Stubbon.. yeah Jormag seems pretty persistent to get it's way no matter what and the last we've yet to see.)
    Are unforgiving and hold grudges. (Could definitely see Jormag become this when we eventually agree to work with it and turn on it)
    Tend to develop negative stereotypes of others, especially those from different cultural groups. (This could be something Anet could fit in well with Jormag and the Norn/Charr specifically, specially with a whole Canthan expansion on the horizon and non human racism very likely being a part of it)

    Kralks torment drove him to consume.
    Jormags could drive it to control..
    Mordremoths could have driven it to dominate..
    And Zhaitans could have been similar to Kralks.. consumption or it could have been to spread like a pestilence.

    As for the other two.. DSD is too much an enigma to really work out but Primordus.. Primordus's torment could be to burn everything in it's path, some extreme form of Pyromania or something.
    It's ideal world being one absent of life and consumed by fire and ash, which could explain why it has little to no interest in corrupting mortals and would rather create minions of stone and fire.

  • XenoSpyro.1780XenoSpyro.1780 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2020

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    Taimi is one, she's apparently supposed to represent the crippled---err sorry-- too offensive, the physically disabled!

    My favorite grotesque evasion is if someone says "handi-capable".

    @Drgnfly.5812 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    I'm going to ignore that ANET deliberately did this to appease the LGBT pride era.

    Your whole post comes across as defensive and verging on hostile to me. Not necessarily towards LGBT people but perhaps to the idea of the inclusion of LGBT images in a MMORPG.

    I'm Bi, and I don't get that vibe at all. Kinda shows you're one of those overtly sensitive types of people this post is referring to.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    If you didn't get that vibe, I'm not sure we read the same post.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Compared to the other EDs, Primordus has shown relatively little interest in affairs on the surface on Tyria. Primordus and the Destroyers certainly wreaked havoc on the underground races, but that seems to have been as much or more by them happening to be in Primordus' way, as by deliberate design. I mean, look at it from Primordus' perspective: would YOU be happy to wake up after millennia and find an entire civilization (Asura) leeching your magical energy? Little wonder that the Asura felt his wrath first and hardest, by both physical proximity to him and the provocation of powering the Central Transfer Chamber from him.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    Compared to the other EDs, Primordus has shown relatively little interest in affairs on the surface on Tyria. Primordus and the Destroyers certainly wreaked havoc on the underground races, but that seems to have been as much or more by them happening to be in Primordus' way, as by deliberate design. I mean, look at it from Primordus' perspective: would YOU be happy to wake up after millennia and find an entire civilization (Asura) leeching your magical energy? Little wonder that the Asura felt his wrath first and hardest, by both physical proximity to him and the provocation of powering the Central Transfer Chamber from him.

    I would disagree. We were told that the Great Destroyer's purpose was to - to paraphrase - clear surface life in preparation for Primordus' rising. The main reason there isn't much surface activity from destroyers in the past 200 years is because the dwarves has been in the way, fighting the destroyers and Primordus. That's why destroyers began surfacing "only recently" - which is why almost all surfacers believe dwarves completely extinct by now, not just as creatures of flesh but even creatures of stone. Not to mention that Primordus has had all the time in the world to chow down on six Rata Sum-equivalent asuran cities that are underground.

    So I would argue that Primordus is interested in the surface - hence why we see any destroyer activity at all on the surface - but it has been incapable of afflicting the surface until recently, and it only is interested minutely at that.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:
    As I posted above we know that Tequatl (as well as Zhaitans other Dragon like Champions) and the Shatter were created by their respective Elder Dragons.
    They were not corrupted beings or born in the traditional sense but constructed.

    What would be the traditional sense for an ED to create a scion? Are not all systems of reproduction simply forms and methods by which living entities biologically "construct" new individuals? Perhaps we are just picturing two different, but equally plausible, forms of creation based on the information provided.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I enjoy a good fallen trope too as well as self sacrifice trope.
    First time I remember that hitting me was when I was a young kid and I first watched Black Cauldren.. Gurgi sacrificing himself to save his only friends got me right in the child feels hahaha

    I would have to say my most favorite fallen heroes would be Achilles and Anakin. I love the idea of portraying a suffering in literature and then turning it into a madness. Whether it is an uncontrollable rage (Achilles), a cold heartless fist (Anakin), or possibly in the case of Kralk. an unquenchable thirst.

    I cannot say I've heard of Black Cauldren (sp?) though. Is that a book?

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Primordus's torment could be to burn everything in it's path, some extreme form of Pyromania or something.
    It's ideal world being one absent of life and consumed by fire and ash, which could explain why it has little to no interest in corrupting mortals and would rather create minions of stone and fire.

    This makes a lot sense to me. I could see Primordius being perhaps the most primal of the EDs. Where Mordremoth or Jormag are very thoughtful and cunning, this potential hunger of Primordus seems thematically likely. Fire is a consuming force with no regard to boundaries. Perhaps Primordius's torment isn't just pyromantic in nature but verges on a type of filicide.

    @XenoSpyro.1780 said:
    I'm Bi, and I don't get that vibe at all. Kinda shows you're one of those overtly sensitive types of people this post is referring to.

    I'm not sure what your sexual orientation has to do with his, yours, or my point. Unless you trying to appeal to your authority in order to convince me that I did not read what I read. Nevertheless, you are entitled to your interpretation same as me. My desire here is simply to discuss Tyrian lore and stories. I do not feel that I was in any way disrespectful to Aridon.8362. I am genuinely confused as to why you feel the need to defend that particular post. And I certainly don't see how trying to characterize me as "overtly sensitive" is in any way necessary within this forum.

    "There is little love for those of my kind in this place, yet I am here to help save them all. To those who matter, actions speak louder than words and my actions shall echo across this city for eternity until all recognize the honor of the Tengu race." ~ Talon Silverwing

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Drgnfly.5812 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    As I posted above we know that Tequatl (as well as Zhaitans other Dragon like Champions) and the Shatter were created by their respective Elder Dragons.
    They were not corrupted beings or born in the traditional sense but constructed.

    What would be the traditional sense for an ED to create a scion? Are not all systems of reproduction simply forms and methods by which living entities biologically "construct" new individuals? Perhaps we are just picturing two different, but equally plausible, forms of creation based on the information provided.

    I would assume there is a difference yeah.
    Glint as we know was her own being, as was Vlast and Aurine but typical Dragon Champions have shown no sign of any real individuality before nor after their masters were destroyed.
    They don't seem capable of speech or free will, but we do know they have some level of intelligence.
    I would say there is a big difference between the two based on that and the possibility that Dragon Champions don't appear to have the ability to reproduce or duplicate themselves where as Glint could.. verdicts out with Aurine atm though as we don't know for sure if she can lay eggs as an Elder Dragon though being the "first of her kind" she might be able to.
    That might be a bit too cheap of a plot narrative though.. yay more scions now we can kill the rest etc.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I enjoy a good fallen trope too as well as self sacrifice trope.
    First time I remember that hitting me was when I was a young kid and I first watched Black Cauldren.. Gurgi sacrificing himself to save his only friends got me right in the child feels hahaha

    I would have to say my most favorite fallen heroes would be Achilles and Anakin. I love the idea of portraying a suffering in literature and then turning it into a madness. Whether it is an uncontrollable rage (Achilles), a cold heartless fist (Anakin), or possibly in the case of Kralk. an unquenchable thirst.

    I cannot say I've heard of Black Cauldren (sp?) though. Is that a book?

    I think it's based on novels yea, but I know it as an old Disney movie from 1985, I used to have it on VHS when I was a kid and that one bit with Gurgi always used to make me sad haha Disney used to put some pretty dark stuff in their films back then.

    Here's a clip from the movie if you're interested (Gurgi is that little dog looking creature btw) This movie is probably one of the main reasons why I really got hooked into fantasy RPG's like Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Guildwars, Final Fantasy etc and probably one reason why I enjoy dark classes like Necromancers XD
    For a 35 year old animated movie it holds up pretty kitten well imo I might just rewatch it again soon now because of this lol

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Primordus's torment could be to burn everything in it's path, some extreme form of Pyromania or something.
    It's ideal world being one absent of life and consumed by fire and ash, which could explain why it has little to no interest in corrupting mortals and would rather create minions of stone and fire.

    This makes a lot sense to me. I could see Primordius being perhaps the most primal of the EDs. Where Mordremoth or Jormag are very thoughtful and cunning, this potential hunger of Primordus seems thematically likely. Fire is a consuming force with no regard to boundaries. Perhaps Primordius's torment isn't just pyromantic in nature but verges on a type of filicide.

    Primal definitely fits the bill, The Stone Summit journals refer to Primordus as a being a pure and ancient fire as well.
    Tapping into his power is actually what drove them to become what they are in Forging Steel.
    Everything they once were seems to have been burned away by fire.
    The last journal entry suggests as much with lines like "Somethings wrong, thoughts thin, burning, ash, summit..."

    Perhaps this gives us a short peek into Primordus's personality.. much like the Stone summit his mind and senses were burnt away by primal fire long ago and he too is basically just an raging inferno in physical form, It would make sense since he's the Dragon of Fire and Conflagration..
    Conflagration basically giving emphasis to the kind of destruction he is capable of, the difference between a campfire and an inferno kinda thing.

    It does make Primordus your typical big bad evil though.. however with Dragons becoming more complicated that might not be a bad thing in the end.
    Kralkatorrik ultimately didn't want to be that way and was more focused on consuming than just destroying.
    Primordus on the other hand being totally genocidal and wanting nothing but to watch the whole world burn away would in a way be more unique than the others.. plus it would also really highlight how dangerous he is if Anet does it right.
    Imagine going to an area of the world that we would expect to be full of nature and life only to get there and find everything is just dead and charred.

  • Taylan.2187Taylan.2187 Member ✭✭✭

    People are talking about the fact that the EDs breath, bleed and have a heartbeat, to argue that they're organic creatures and therefore must have a sex(*), but given how ancient and a part of the universe they are, isn't it more likely that organic creatures were "created in their image" and only developed sex after that? I.e. in the GW universe, breath, blood and heartbeat might be part of a more fundamental aspect of existence, something higher than biology, whereas sex is only an aspect of the lesser, squishy, organic creatures.

    (*) Everyone here saying "gender" when they mean sex. "Gender" seems to mean a hundred different things depending on who you ask nowadays so best to just avoid the term unless you clarify what you mean with it, e.g. biological gender (= sex) or grammatical gender (= pronouns, le/la in French, etc.)

    In my head canon, the EDs have no sex and lesser creatures only attribute them a grammatical gender (and maybe an imagined sex) because they're used to thinking that way.

    It's a more difficult question when it comes to the human gods. There's another thread right now discussing whether the gods might all actually be ascended humans, which would be the simplest explanation. If they're not originally human, but rather higher creatures like the EDs, then why do they seem to come in female and male form? (I'm assuming they can't sexually reproduce like organic creatures.) Only way to resolve that would be to conclude that in the GW universe, female and male are something beyond mundane biology, something that originally has a higher divine meaning, which is an idea I don't really like.

    Another thing that comes to mind: Aurene came from an egg. Again, this might mean that female/male exists beyond organic biology in the GW universe, although it could also be that Glint was just imitating organic biology for the sake of familiarity. Has there ever been another dragon egg than Aurene's?

  • Drgnfly.5812Drgnfly.5812 Member ✭✭

    @Taylan.2187 said:
    (*) Everyone here saying "gender" when they mean sex. "Gender" seems to mean a hundred different things depending on who you ask nowadays so best to just avoid the term unless you clarify what you mean with it, e.g. biological gender (= sex) or grammatical gender (= pronouns, le/la in French, etc.)

    I myself try to shy away from discussion of the gender of the EDs. Gender itself is a social construct more so than a biological description. Certain societies may base specific gender associations and/or roles off of biological factors, but it is not required. EDs do not technically participate in a society, therefore it would be unexpected if the EDs had a gender identity. To discuss the masculine and feminine designations of any particular ED as a "fact" seems futile to me.

    That said, we should realize that there are Tyrian societies that have relationships to the EDs. Each particular race will view the EDs (as well the Gods) through their own cultural lenses. These various races of Tyria will ascribe characteristics and descriptions to the EDs that may be viewed as masculine, feminine, or some degree of from within that society . When the Sons of Svanir ascribe a masculine gender to Jormag, for example, we are learning about SoS's viewpoint and not particularly of Jormag itself.

    It is for these reason I initially leaned into discussing biological sex more so than the initial discussion of gender. I found it interesting to discuss particular physical characteristics of the EDs because it makes them seem more real. To theorize that EDs may reproduce in a manner similar to bees, that their minions act with a hive mentality, that they collect magic which other races then "harvest" makes them hypothetically seem plausible in some other reality. Therein lies the keystone of a good story, plausibility.

    "There is little love for those of my kind in this place, yet I am here to help save them all. To those who matter, actions speak louder than words and my actions shall echo across this city for eternity until all recognize the honor of the Tengu race." ~ Talon Silverwing

  • Taylan.2187Taylan.2187 Member ✭✭✭

    Agreed. I wonder about one thing though:

    @Drgnfly.5812 said:
    Each particular race will view the EDs (as well the Gods) through their own cultural lenses.

    Isn't it a bit different with the gods? They look exactly like humans, and it's being claimed that they brought humans to Tyria. They seem to have a sex, which some older races on Tyria (jotun, kodan, dwarves) also seem to have, casting doubt to the claim that they're really so different to the humanoid races that existed in Tyria before the arrival of the gods.

    Theoretically it could be that the gods created humans in mammalian form so they would fit in to Tyria, and that they then assumed a humanoid shape themselves to feel more familiar, although I find this a bit far-fetched. I think it would be a lot more interesting if it were revealed that the gods were originally mammals descending from some other race in Tyria, who found a way to garner so much magic that they could then create a new race to represent themselves and be worshipped.

    More generally I wonder how, if at all, Tyrian lore can be reconciled with biology and evolution. Given that the EDs breathe, bleed and have a heartbeat, it would require either some far-fetched explanation, or a revelation that even the EDs are actually organic creatures that merely garnered a ton of magical power. Would be compatible with your bee theory I guess.

    Then there are creatures from the mists... Are there any creatures in GW2 lore that come entirely from outside Tyria but still have a shape akin to creatures in Tyria? (Be it serpent, bird-like, humanoid, or else.) I guess that would make it difficult to reconcile the GW2 universe with biology and evolution.

  • Drgnfly.5812Drgnfly.5812 Member ✭✭

    @Taylan.2187 said:
    Isn't it a bit different with the gods? They look exactly like humans, and it's being claimed that they brought humans to Tyria. They seem to have a sex, which some older races on Tyria (jotun, kodan, dwarves) also seem to have, casting doubt to the claim that they're really so different to the humanoid races that existed in Tyria before the arrival of the gods.

    Admittedly the gods of Tyria do seem to exist within their own society. They interact with each other, impose their will on each other, and are capable of given physical birth. I wasn't trying to make the argument that the gods of Tyria have no gender identity. Only that the majority of attributes that are used to describe the gods has to do with how any particular race sees them. For instance, Humans see near omnipotent entities worthy worship while Asura see vessels whose existence can be rationally predicted.

    And perhaps your right. It is possible that the gods of Tyria walked through the Mists and elevated an already existing species thereby creating humanity. Perhaps the gods crafted humanity from clay and bone as speculated by the asura Xakk. I would love to create some solid answers to these and many questions concerning the lore of Tyria. Though I suspect the developers at ArenaNet prefer the nebulous nature of this lore for more pragmatic reasons.

    I do remember a long time ago there used to be a lot of fan fiction that had been written about Tyria. People crafted intricate stories explaining the skills and events that existed in the original game. I can no longer remember or even find an archive of those sites, but I would love to reread those ideas. Properly drawn upon and fleshed out I would think they would provide a treasure trove of ideas for the developers. Much like how some of the Star Wars fan fiction had an impact on the later released movies.

    "There is little love for those of my kind in this place, yet I am here to help save them all. To those who matter, actions speak louder than words and my actions shall echo across this city for eternity until all recognize the honor of the Tengu race." ~ Talon Silverwing

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2020

    @Drgnfly.5812 said:

    @Taylan.2187 said:
    Isn't it a bit different with the gods? They look exactly like humans...and perhaps your right. It is possible that the gods of Tyria walked through the Mists and elevated an already existing species thereby creating humanity. Perhaps the gods crafted humanity from clay and bone as speculated by the asura Xakk. I would love to create some solid answers to these and many questions concerning the lore of Tyria. Though I suspect the developers at ArenaNet prefer the nebulous nature of this lore for more pragmatic reasons.

    I tend to agree with you. I believe humanity was cultivated from another, source race. The GWP Manuscripts reveal a relationship between the Forgotten and the Gods, so it's possible that the Gods grafted humanity from them. Thruuln the Lost also talks about a relationship between the Gods and the jotun, and I guess that is another source race from which humanity might've been seeded.

    If the jotun turn out to be the vine through which humanity emerged, I think that the norn might be prototype humans who were largely, but not completely, cleansed of torment.

    How was this achieved? Probably by sacrificing jotun atop the bloodstone and using a resurrection ceremony similar to that employed by the White Mantle to restore Lazarus the Dire's form. The difference would be that the physical form of the jotun candidate was changed between each round of sacrifice until the norn emerged. The grafting of norn from jotun might be what Thruuln refers to when he says that the jotun were "gaining" on the gods.

  • Project exa.3204Project exa.3204 Member ✭✭

    Glad I wasn't the only one thinking this! lol

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    @Project exa.3204 said:
    Glad I wasn't the only one thinking this! lol

    Yeah, big lolz right? I always like theories about the bloodstone. Maybe if you've got some you should start a new thread?