Raids are not balanced when there is a 9-10k Difference between professions. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Raids are not balanced when there is a 9-10k Difference between professions.

Josiah.2967Josiah.2967 Member ✭✭✭

Please either nerf the top performing professions (this would include Guardians even if they are not the top offender) or buff the lower end. The DPS spread between professions keeps getting bigger. Every profession should be viable for end game content.

When certain professions are only doing 3/4's of the damage in their top DPS spec...they are not viable.

Comments

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    My condi engineer does ~5k dps on a stationary golem and according to the WvW forums it uses the most broken super OP toxic gear there is.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Josiah.2967Josiah.2967 Member ✭✭✭

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    What should they base off of? snowcrows on a stationary DPS golem with full boons? The average player in a real scenario? An average player with quickness + alacrity?

    If you are saying 3/4 damage, classes like power reaper and power herald are consistent even if they're not top DPS. The problem with power reaper (IMO) is only the life force generation when there isn't things dying whiich is why they're stronger in fractals than raids/strikes. I've seen someone benchmark auto attacks and it was something like 25K for reaper shroud and photon forge with 22K for staff daredevil ; 18K for power herald presumably on sword as well as Greatsword soulbeast with skirmishing hitting from side.

    I can tell you for a fact that your average merged Greatsword soulbeast or sword holo (with better cleave and CC) is going to do more than your average chrono that doesn't shatter properly or dragonhunter let alone something considered more complicated such as condi weaver.

    Just something to keep in mind.

    End game content should be kept with the players that do the content. There needs to be at least one spec viable in an organized group of players who play the profession properly.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Why when its the smallest population of content, is PvE so it likely doesn't matter and it also doesn't effect anyone else really. So your damage is not the highest in the group; Its not like it matters when there are no new raid wings in the works and all of that potential content is being pushed into strikes/visions.

  • Josiah.2967Josiah.2967 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2020

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Why when its the smallest population of content, is PvE so it likely doesn't matter and it also doesn't effect anyone else really. So your damage is not the highest in the group; Its not like it matters when there are no new raid wings in the works and all of that potential content is being pushed into strikes/visions.

    It simply is not fun to know your not competitive in Strike Missions, Raids, or Fractals. Since they are creating more Fractals and Strike Missions. This content needs to be balanced.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Why when its the smallest population of content, is PvE so it likely doesn't matter and it also doesn't effect anyone else really. So your damage is not the highest in the group; Its not like it matters when there are no new raid wings in the works and all of that potential content is being pushed into strikes/visions.

    It simply is not fun to know your not competitive in Strike Missions, Raids, or Fractals. Since they are creating more Fractals and Strike Missions. This content needs to be balanced.

    The only way anything will be balanced is if they truly homogenize the game and at that point we will likely loose many more players. Including myself, they just need to bring the others up to the level of those strong classes not the other way around.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The only spec I've seen struggle in FotM was a core engi, and a spellbreaker who couldn't break 7k dps. If you can manage 18k on a half assed rotation then you are better than most of the non speed clear players in FotM and should have no problem doing dailies. I expect the same is true for Raids, but it is pretty much the toxic community left there. Especially now that you can get both Legendary rings out of WvW for far less effort and anxiety. Honestly I'd love for them to include a leggy amulet into FotM.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2020

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Why when its the smallest population of content, is PvE so it likely doesn't matter and it also doesn't effect anyone else really. So your damage is not the highest in the group; Its not like it matters when there are no new raid wings in the works and all of that potential content is being pushed into strikes/visions.

    It simply is not fun to know your not competitive in Strike Missions, Raids, or Fractals. Since they are creating more Fractals and Strike Missions. This content needs to be balanced.

    The only way anything will be balanced is if they truly homogenize the game and at that point we will likely loose many more players. Including myself, they just need to bring the others up to the level of those strong classes not the other way around.

    Well I think ultimately what has caused the greatest disparity was when Scholar rune was changed in November 2018 to add +125 ferocity on the 6th bonus. Scholar was already meta before that, so it just exacerbated any underlying issues since you then have +8.3% critical hit damage on top of the +5% while > 90% health. Before that the increase was <7% unless you managed the 10% bonus while >90% health.

    If it weren't for that massive ferocity bonus then you'd close the gap with something like spellbreaker runes (+7% vs boonless but no ferocity) , ogre runes (missing the 6th rune +125 ferocity bonus, +4% flat damage) , or thief runes (+10% while flanking ; currently meta for warrior likely due to the added +125 precision). Coincidentally warrior has a lower personal damage.


    Also, unless your group is a tryhard elitist group I don't think anyone is going to fuss about DPS in strikes and fractals. What does bother people is if you're a greatsword camping mesmer at max range , condi scourge on anything but boneskinner "easymode" comps, or the meme 1500 range ranger on longbow (which has no cleave on auto or rapid fire unless you run marksmanship for piercing which isn't the same as cleave).

    Guardian: have to be pretty bad to get yelled at if you run power greatsword (~16K auto) and sword+focus or even condi axe
    Warrior: while greatsword is slightly less damage than axes ~ 14K, it isn't terrible unless you auto; mace is used for CC ; hammer sees use in WvW prepatch but not so much after Feb 25
    Revenant : any revenant running alacrity and double swords is already decent group-wise and also brings ~14K DPS ; condi revs camping mace already do about 15K ; power herald camping swords about 18K as previously stated ; 10K hammer auto on power herald (which is very rare in PVE)
    Ranger: as stated above, if running skirmishing +beastmastery+soulbeast ~18K is achieved just camping Greatsword... the problem is people being idiots max range longbow off stack getting zero boons
    Thief: lowest bar for doing good damage , staff daredevil does ~22K autoing as stated above
    Engineer: as stated above, just using photon forge can get you 25K auto if you have conditions on the target, camping sword/bomb kit on holo is around 15K
    Mesmer: a full zerk chrono can average around 15K autoing , if you use blurred frenzy (sword 2) it will be higher of course
    Elementalist: as long as you don't run condi your auto on sword weaver can do about 18K with bolt to the heart ; ~10K staff auto
    Necro: needs a bit of help but as stated above it's about 25K in shroud and I think 15-16K camping Greatsword so the biggest issue is life force generation when there aren't deaths (strikes generally don't have them unless your party dies)

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Most professions are close to the average 36k. The necromancer is the only exception because he is "victim" of the shroud. The choice to put the damage and the defense packed together onto the shroud mean that dealing damage with a necromancer is relatively "safer" than doing it with other professions and thus it justify the "low" dps potential.

    The profession is just imbalanced and some players defend it as it is. Ideally, the shroud should be the defensive stance only while being out of shroud should be the offensive stance. If that was the case, balancing scourge would have been a breeze, but, somehow, the lack of damage out of shroud led ANet to pack damage on the shade skills leading to the mess of absurd nerfs that pushed the scourge toward the trash can.

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    Please either nerf the top performing professions (this would include Guardians even if they are not the top offender) or buff the lower end. The DPS spread between professions keeps getting bigger. Every profession should be viable for end game content.

    When certain professions are only doing 3/4's of the damage in their top DPS spec...they are not viable.

    Maybe this applies to hitting the training dummy realistically people have to use their dodges and actually move around on bosses. DPS checks feel like a thing of the past right now. I did VG the other day and we beat the timer on normal mode with like 3 min to spare, we didn't even have to worry about the green circles.

  • Thorstienn.1642Thorstienn.1642 Member ✭✭✭

    What classes arent "viable" in raids? People have to stop using that word so incorrectly.

    And what DPS are you comparing too? In your raid group, friends, PUGs? Stormcrows benchmarks? They dont know how to use words either. A benchmark is NOT the "perfect world, full buffs, bash dummy", that's called an "Optimal Parse".

    Benchmarks would be purely self buffed, probably not even with food and utilities; that's a benchmark that you can then build upon to improve as an individual and a group.

    And if all you care about is the absolute top DPS with a perfect group etc (top 1%ers), then it wouldn't matter if the difference is 1k between the "top" and "bottom" class, ur gonna stack that top class.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2020

    @Thorstienn.1642 said:
    What classes arent "viable" in raids? People have to stop using that word so incorrectly.

    And what DPS are you comparing too? In your raid group, friends, PUGs? Stormcrows benchmarks? They dont know how to use words either. A benchmark is NOT the "perfect world, full buffs, bash dummy", that's called an "Optimal Parse".

    Benchmarks would be purely self buffed, probably not even with food and utilities; that's a benchmark that you can then build upon to improve as an individual and a group.

    And if all you care about is the absolute top DPS with a perfect group etc (top 1%ers), then it wouldn't matter if the difference is 1k between the "top" and "bottom" class, ur gonna stack that top class.

    Can't do self buff when other classes provides Alacrity / Quickness / Fury / Might / Banner / Spotter / ... to yours
    Depends on your raid comp

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    Well I think ultimately what has caused the greatest disparity was when Scholar rune was changed in November 2018 to add +125 ferocity on the 6th bonus. Scholar was already meta before that, so it just exacerbated any underlying issues since you then have +8.3% critical hit damage on top of the +5% while > 90% health. Before that the increase was <7% unless you managed the 10% bonus while >90% health.

    Not sure if i understood you correctly but the scholar change was a significant nerf which affected all power builds.

    @Thorstienn.1642 said:
    And what DPS are you comparing too? In your raid group, friends, PUGs? Stormcrows benchmarks? They dont know how to use words either. A benchmark is NOT the "perfect world, full buffs, bash dummy", that's called an "Optimal Parse".

    Isn't a benchmark just a standardised test to compare stuff? The snowcrows table is exactly that. Using selfbuffs or not using food would make the whole thing worthless for raid comparisons.
    They use buffs you have in raids anyways. the only thing not used anymore is "empower allies" but nobody wants to redo everything so its just kept for better comparability. a benchmark can be perfect world, not sure what definition you are using. it just needs to be standardised.

  • Blood Red Arachnid.2493Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2020

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Why when its the smallest population of content, is PvE so it likely doesn't matter and it also doesn't effect anyone else really. So your damage is not the highest in the group; Its not like it matters when there are no new raid wings in the works and all of that potential content is being pushed into strikes/visions.

    This is a multiplayer game. The social hurdles are just as real as the physical ones. Being unable to complete content because you can't perform well enough is effectively the same as being unable to complete content because no one else will let you. Likewise, roaming players upscale enemies and events, so it really does affect other people.

    General PVE is downwind of raid performance. The damage that class X does against the raid golem in ideal situations is just the sum of all their skill coefficients divided by the total time it takes to do those skill, then multiplied by all of the unique modifiers that class has. If you take away external buffs, you still have the same skill coefficients and modifiers. A class with high burst will, relatively, still have high burst, and a class with good sustained damage will still have good sustained damage even if there's nobody around to buff you. This DOES affect class performance, from soloing champions to making money.


    The big problem with getting Anet to balance PVE performance is that we don't actually know what standards Anet has for PVE performance. We don't know their goals, their standards, or their methods. We don't even know if Anet actually has any of these, or if they're just balancing everything for lore reasons.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's fine, because ideal DPS are a pipe dream most of the time. Some can do it more easily and on basically all bosses, others only have certain times where they can hit their peak DPS due to movement or phases and what have you. Not every class does the exact same thing, hence these rather large differences. There are times where you really want those insane spike DPS and there are many where just a consistent DPS is far better.

    I rather choose death.

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    Anet's new formula for reaching the holy 38k+ grail is adding in fantastic conditions which are questionable to satisfy. Guard can reach 38k... if it manages to not get hit at all. Chrono can reach 40k... if it demands other players to supply slow for them. Slb - flanking (remembering to think outside raids). DE - standing completely still.

    If these conditions are not met, the dps of these builds drop dramatically - coincidently, somewhere only a little higher than what reaper is now.

    Using the same theory, necro already has that one magical interaction that boosts their dps closer to the holy grail - Dread: deal 33% increased dmg to foes under the effect of fear. It’s as simple as asking anet to double (triple in the case for reaper) the fear duration of the related shroud fear skills for PvE only, which means necro can then reach these numbers if you simply stack ~6 of them, or 3-4 if they run Fear of Death. Lo and behold, you have your 38k dream!

    /3chars

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2020

    Professions are different for a reason.
    They may do well in one encounter and totally fall flat in another.

    Reaper is one such example, due to Lifeforce availability.
    They may be weaker in Raids but they are stronger elsewhere.

    Similarly yur uber DPS Deadeye may be great in Raids but be doo doo at cleaving for stuff like Dungeons or Fractals.

    While some classes indeed need buffs because they are extremely weak in ALL encounters, I don't think there really is a need to "nerf the top performers, buff the under performers" just by looking at DPS benchmarks for a stupid stationary Golem or for specific encounters.

    Raids aren't the only content in the game, yu can't just balance classes around Raid encounters.

    And besides, each Profession has different specs.
    Yu can't just go "DUR NECRO BAD, REAPER BAD DPS" but on the flip side Scourge support be a viable and sometimes strong addition to the Raid group.

    Similarly, if Core Engi is literal dumpster at anything (which is really sad btw, this is something Anet should look at because Engi is a core profession), Holo exists which does respectable DPS, and Scrapper does offer pretty decent support.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2020

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    When certain professions are only doing 3/4's of the damage in their top DPS spec...they are not viable.

    You don't need to top the dps charts to be "viable", so your statemnet is just wrong.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    Professions are different for a reason.
    They may do well in one encounter and totally fall flat in another.

    Reaper is one such example, due to Lifeforce availability.
    They may be weaker in Raids but they are stronger elsewhere.

    Similarly yur uber DPS Deadeye may be great in Raids but be doo doo at cleaving for stuff like Dungeons or Fractals.

    While some classes indeed need buffs because they are extremely weak in ALL encounters, I don't think there really is a need to "nerf the top performers, buff the under performers" just by looking at DPS benchmarks for a stupid stationary Golem or for specific encounters.

    Raids aren't the only content in the game, yu can't just balance classes around Raid encounters.

    And besides, each Profession has different specs.
    Yu can't just go "DUR NECRO BAD, REAPER BAD DPS" but on the flip side Scourge support be a viable and sometimes strong addition to the Raid group.

    Similarly, if Core Engi is literal dumpster at anything (which is really sad btw, this is something Anet should look at because Engi is a core profession), Holo exists which does respectable DPS, and Scrapper does offer pretty decent support.

    Well, the main issue is less balance than the priorities each individual see in balance. ANet's dev as individual balance toward an image where every profession can hold itself with a bit of work into instance/raid content. The players as individual look at efficiency when they think about the word "balance". Players do not care about minor builds or the fact that anything work, they care about the most effective tactic available. And because dps is a very convenient way to bypass bothersome mechanism in raids encounter, players care about dps. Because offensive support is the best way to have high dps and thus bypass the bothersome mechanism, players look for the most cost effective offensive support.

    In this context, some profession out perform other. The necromancer is and have always been in a bind because it's tools are geared toward environment that are full of conditions and boons. Raids don't offer that and even if it were to offer that, the sheer fact that there is 10 players facing a single foe make it that either the number of conditions and boons would be overwhelming without a full group of necromancer or the necromancer is left fighting with it's teammate for every scrap of boon/condition. In our case, the necromancer face the later option (which is probably for the best if we look at the broad picture).

    There is no way for the current necromancer's tools to put him in a spot where he would compete as an optimal option. And even if he were, it's inate resilience given by the shroud/shade would make him OP and thus a candidate for a much needed nerf.

    When ANet announced the e-spec system with the first expansion, I had hope that it would be a bridge that would help the necromancer to free himself from the broken designs that shackle him but... No. If anything, along the years ANet just strenghtened the shackles not willing to give even the slight bit of relief to the necromancer.

  • XenoSpyro.1780XenoSpyro.1780 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    My condi engineer does ~5k dps on a stationary golem

    I get more burning damage alone on a power class than that. What the Phlunt are you doing?

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XenoSpyro.1780 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    My condi engineer does ~5k dps on a stationary golem

    I get more burning damage alone on a power class than that. What the Phlunt are you doing?

    Probably predicting golem's movement while forgetting it's stationary. :p

  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Infusion.7149 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Why when its the smallest population of content, is PvE so it likely doesn't matter and it also doesn't effect anyone else really. So your damage is not the highest in the group; Its not like it matters when there are no new raid wings in the works and all of that potential content is being pushed into strikes/visions.

    It simply is not fun to know your not competitive in Strike Missions, Raids, or Fractals. Since they are creating more Fractals and Strike Missions. This content needs to be balanced.

    The only way anything will be balanced is if they truly homogenize the game and at that point we will likely loose many more players. Including myself, they just need to bring the others up to the level of those strong classes not the other way around.

    Well I think ultimately what has caused the greatest disparity was when Scholar rune was changed in November 2018 to add +125 ferocity on the 6th bonus. Scholar was already meta before that, so it just exacerbated any underlying issues since you then have +8.3% critical hit damage on top of the +5% while > 90% health. Before that the increase was <7% unless you managed the 10% bonus while >90% health.

    If it weren't for that massive ferocity bonus then you'd close the gap with something like spellbreaker runes (+7% vs boonless but no ferocity) , ogre runes (missing the 6th rune +125 ferocity bonus, +4% flat damage) , or thief runes (+10% while flanking ; currently meta for warrior likely due to the added +125 precision). Coincidentally warrior has a lower personal damage.


    Also, unless your group is a tryhard elitist group I don't think anyone is going to fuss about DPS in strikes and fractals. What does bother people is if you're a greatsword camping mesmer at max range , condi scourge on anything but boneskinner "easymode" comps, or the meme 1500 range ranger on longbow (which has no cleave on auto or rapid fire unless you run marksmanship for piercing which isn't the same as cleave).

    Guardian: have to be pretty bad to get yelled at if you run power greatsword (~16K auto) and sword+focus or even condi axe
    Warrior: while greatsword is slightly less damage than axes ~ 14K, it isn't terrible unless you auto; mace is used for CC ; hammer sees use in WvW prepatch but not so much after Feb 25
    Revenant : any revenant running alacrity and double swords is already decent group-wise and also brings ~14K DPS ; condi revs camping mace already do about 15K ; power herald camping swords about 18K as previously stated ; 10K hammer auto on power herald (which is very rare in PVE)
    Ranger: as stated above, if running skirmishing +beastmastery+soulbeast ~18K is achieved just camping Greatsword... the problem is people being idiots max range longbow off stack getting zero boons
    Thief: lowest bar for doing good damage , staff daredevil does ~22K autoing as stated above
    Engineer: as stated above, just using photon forge can get you 25K auto if you have conditions on the target, camping sword/bomb kit on holo is around 15K
    Mesmer: a full zerk chrono can average around 15K autoing , if you use blurred frenzy (sword 2) it will be higher of course
    Elementalist: as long as you don't run condi your auto on sword weaver can do about 18K with bolt to the heart ; ~10K staff auto
    Necro: needs a bit of help but as stated above it's about 25K in shroud and I think 15-16K camping Greatsword so the biggest issue is life force generation when there aren't deaths (strikes generally don't have them unless your party dies)

    Why are you comparing auto attack chains? Please tell me you aren't advocating for balancing based on people who can't even be kitten to learn the basics of a rotation.