Raids are not balanced when there is a 9-10k Difference between professions. — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Raids are not balanced when there is a 9-10k Difference between professions.

Josiah.2967Josiah.2967 Member ✭✭✭✭

Please either nerf the top performing professions (this would include Guardians even if they are not the top offender) or buff the lower end. The DPS spread between professions keeps getting bigger. Every profession should be viable for end game content.

When certain professions are only doing 3/4's of the damage in their top DPS spec...they are not viable.

<134567

Comments

  • Josiah.2967Josiah.2967 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    What should they base off of? snowcrows on a stationary DPS golem with full boons? The average player in a real scenario? An average player with quickness + alacrity?

    If you are saying 3/4 damage, classes like power reaper and power herald are consistent even if they're not top DPS. The problem with power reaper (IMO) is only the life force generation when there isn't things dying whiich is why they're stronger in fractals than raids/strikes. I've seen someone benchmark auto attacks and it was something like 25K for reaper shroud and photon forge with 22K for staff daredevil ; 18K for power herald presumably on sword as well as Greatsword soulbeast with skirmishing hitting from side.

    I can tell you for a fact that your average merged Greatsword soulbeast or sword holo (with better cleave and CC) is going to do more than your average chrono that doesn't shatter properly or dragonhunter let alone something considered more complicated such as condi weaver.

    Just something to keep in mind.

    End game content should be kept with the players that do the content. There needs to be at least one spec viable in an organized group of players who play the profession properly.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Why when its the smallest population of content, is PvE so it likely doesn't matter and it also doesn't effect anyone else really. So your damage is not the highest in the group; Its not like it matters when there are no new raid wings in the works and all of that potential content is being pushed into strikes/visions.

  • Josiah.2967Josiah.2967 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2020

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Why when its the smallest population of content, is PvE so it likely doesn't matter and it also doesn't effect anyone else really. So your damage is not the highest in the group; Its not like it matters when there are no new raid wings in the works and all of that potential content is being pushed into strikes/visions.

    It simply is not fun to know your not competitive in Strike Missions, Raids, or Fractals. Since they are creating more Fractals and Strike Missions. This content needs to be balanced.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Why when its the smallest population of content, is PvE so it likely doesn't matter and it also doesn't effect anyone else really. So your damage is not the highest in the group; Its not like it matters when there are no new raid wings in the works and all of that potential content is being pushed into strikes/visions.

    It simply is not fun to know your not competitive in Strike Missions, Raids, or Fractals. Since they are creating more Fractals and Strike Missions. This content needs to be balanced.

    The only way anything will be balanced is if they truly homogenize the game and at that point we will likely loose many more players. Including myself, they just need to bring the others up to the level of those strong classes not the other way around.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The only spec I've seen struggle in FotM was a core engi, and a spellbreaker who couldn't break 7k dps. If you can manage 18k on a half assed rotation then you are better than most of the non speed clear players in FotM and should have no problem doing dailies. I expect the same is true for Raids, but it is pretty much the toxic community left there. Especially now that you can get both Legendary rings out of WvW for far less effort and anxiety. Honestly I'd love for them to include a leggy amulet into FotM.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2020

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Why when its the smallest population of content, is PvE so it likely doesn't matter and it also doesn't effect anyone else really. So your damage is not the highest in the group; Its not like it matters when there are no new raid wings in the works and all of that potential content is being pushed into strikes/visions.

    It simply is not fun to know your not competitive in Strike Missions, Raids, or Fractals. Since they are creating more Fractals and Strike Missions. This content needs to be balanced.

    The only way anything will be balanced is if they truly homogenize the game and at that point we will likely loose many more players. Including myself, they just need to bring the others up to the level of those strong classes not the other way around.

    Well I think ultimately what has caused the greatest disparity was when Scholar rune was changed in November 2018 to add +125 ferocity on the 6th bonus. Scholar was already meta before that, so it just exacerbated any underlying issues since you then have +8.3% critical hit damage on top of the +5% while > 90% health. Before that the increase was <7% unless you managed the 10% bonus while >90% health.

    If it weren't for that massive ferocity bonus then you'd close the gap with something like spellbreaker runes (+7% vs boonless but no ferocity) , ogre runes (missing the 6th rune +125 ferocity bonus, +4% flat damage) , or thief runes (+10% while flanking ; currently meta for warrior likely due to the added +125 precision). Coincidentally warrior has a lower personal damage.


    Also, unless your group is a tryhard elitist group I don't think anyone is going to fuss about DPS in strikes and fractals. What does bother people is if you're a greatsword camping mesmer at max range , condi scourge on anything but boneskinner "easymode" comps, or the meme 1500 range ranger on longbow (which has no cleave on auto or rapid fire unless you run marksmanship for piercing which isn't the same as cleave).

    Guardian: have to be pretty bad to get yelled at if you run power greatsword (~16K auto) and sword+focus or even condi axe
    Warrior: while greatsword is slightly less damage than axes ~ 14K, it isn't terrible unless you auto; mace is used for CC ; hammer sees use in WvW prepatch but not so much after Feb 25
    Revenant : any revenant running alacrity and double swords is already decent group-wise and also brings ~14K DPS ; condi revs camping mace already do about 15K ; power herald camping swords about 18K as previously stated ; 10K hammer auto on power herald (which is very rare in PVE)
    Ranger: as stated above, if running skirmishing +beastmastery+soulbeast ~18K is achieved just camping Greatsword... the problem is people being idiots max range longbow off stack getting zero boons
    Thief: lowest bar for doing good damage , staff daredevil does ~22K autoing as stated above
    Engineer: as stated above, just using photon forge can get you 25K auto if you have conditions on the target, camping sword/bomb kit on holo is around 15K
    Mesmer: a full zerk chrono can average around 15K autoing , if you use blurred frenzy (sword 2) it will be higher of course
    Elementalist: as long as you don't run condi your auto on sword weaver can do about 18K with bolt to the heart ; ~10K staff auto
    Necro: needs a bit of help but as stated above it's about 25K in shroud and I think 15-16K camping Greatsword so the biggest issue is life force generation when there aren't deaths (strikes generally don't have them unless your party dies)

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Most professions are close to the average 36k. The necromancer is the only exception because he is "victim" of the shroud. The choice to put the damage and the defense packed together onto the shroud mean that dealing damage with a necromancer is relatively "safer" than doing it with other professions and thus it justify the "low" dps potential.

    The profession is just imbalanced and some players defend it as it is. Ideally, the shroud should be the defensive stance only while being out of shroud should be the offensive stance. If that was the case, balancing scourge would have been a breeze, but, somehow, the lack of damage out of shroud led ANet to pack damage on the shade skills leading to the mess of absurd nerfs that pushed the scourge toward the trash can.

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    Please either nerf the top performing professions (this would include Guardians even if they are not the top offender) or buff the lower end. The DPS spread between professions keeps getting bigger. Every profession should be viable for end game content.

    When certain professions are only doing 3/4's of the damage in their top DPS spec...they are not viable.

    Maybe this applies to hitting the training dummy realistically people have to use their dodges and actually move around on bosses. DPS checks feel like a thing of the past right now. I did VG the other day and we beat the timer on normal mode with like 3 min to spare, we didn't even have to worry about the green circles.

  • Thorstienn.1642Thorstienn.1642 Member ✭✭✭

    What classes arent "viable" in raids? People have to stop using that word so incorrectly.

    And what DPS are you comparing too? In your raid group, friends, PUGs? Stormcrows benchmarks? They dont know how to use words either. A benchmark is NOT the "perfect world, full buffs, bash dummy", that's called an "Optimal Parse".

    Benchmarks would be purely self buffed, probably not even with food and utilities; that's a benchmark that you can then build upon to improve as an individual and a group.

    And if all you care about is the absolute top DPS with a perfect group etc (top 1%ers), then it wouldn't matter if the difference is 1k between the "top" and "bottom" class, ur gonna stack that top class.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2020

    @Thorstienn.1642 said:
    What classes arent "viable" in raids? People have to stop using that word so incorrectly.

    And what DPS are you comparing too? In your raid group, friends, PUGs? Stormcrows benchmarks? They dont know how to use words either. A benchmark is NOT the "perfect world, full buffs, bash dummy", that's called an "Optimal Parse".

    Benchmarks would be purely self buffed, probably not even with food and utilities; that's a benchmark that you can then build upon to improve as an individual and a group.

    And if all you care about is the absolute top DPS with a perfect group etc (top 1%ers), then it wouldn't matter if the difference is 1k between the "top" and "bottom" class, ur gonna stack that top class.

    Can't do self buff when other classes provides Alacrity / Quickness / Fury / Might / Banner / Spotter / ... to yours
    Depends on your raid comp

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    Well I think ultimately what has caused the greatest disparity was when Scholar rune was changed in November 2018 to add +125 ferocity on the 6th bonus. Scholar was already meta before that, so it just exacerbated any underlying issues since you then have +8.3% critical hit damage on top of the +5% while > 90% health. Before that the increase was <7% unless you managed the 10% bonus while >90% health.

    Not sure if i understood you correctly but the scholar change was a significant nerf which affected all power builds.

    @Thorstienn.1642 said:
    And what DPS are you comparing too? In your raid group, friends, PUGs? Stormcrows benchmarks? They dont know how to use words either. A benchmark is NOT the "perfect world, full buffs, bash dummy", that's called an "Optimal Parse".

    Isn't a benchmark just a standardised test to compare stuff? The snowcrows table is exactly that. Using selfbuffs or not using food would make the whole thing worthless for raid comparisons.
    They use buffs you have in raids anyways. the only thing not used anymore is "empower allies" but nobody wants to redo everything so its just kept for better comparability. a benchmark can be perfect world, not sure what definition you are using. it just needs to be standardised.

  • Blood Red Arachnid.2493Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2020

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Why when its the smallest population of content, is PvE so it likely doesn't matter and it also doesn't effect anyone else really. So your damage is not the highest in the group; Its not like it matters when there are no new raid wings in the works and all of that potential content is being pushed into strikes/visions.

    This is a multiplayer game. The social hurdles are just as real as the physical ones. Being unable to complete content because you can't perform well enough is effectively the same as being unable to complete content because no one else will let you. Likewise, roaming players upscale enemies and events, so it really does affect other people.

    General PVE is downwind of raid performance. The damage that class X does against the raid golem in ideal situations is just the sum of all their skill coefficients divided by the total time it takes to do those skill, then multiplied by all of the unique modifiers that class has. If you take away external buffs, you still have the same skill coefficients and modifiers. A class with high burst will, relatively, still have high burst, and a class with good sustained damage will still have good sustained damage even if there's nobody around to buff you. This DOES affect class performance, from soloing champions to making money.


    The big problem with getting Anet to balance PVE performance is that we don't actually know what standards Anet has for PVE performance. We don't know their goals, their standards, or their methods. We don't even know if Anet actually has any of these, or if they're just balancing everything for lore reasons.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's fine, because ideal DPS are a pipe dream most of the time. Some can do it more easily and on basically all bosses, others only have certain times where they can hit their peak DPS due to movement or phases and what have you. Not every class does the exact same thing, hence these rather large differences. There are times where you really want those insane spike DPS and there are many where just a consistent DPS is far better.

    I rather choose death.

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    Anet's new formula for reaching the holy 38k+ grail is adding in fantastic conditions which are questionable to satisfy. Guard can reach 38k... if it manages to not get hit at all. Chrono can reach 40k... if it demands other players to supply slow for them. Slb - flanking (remembering to think outside raids). DE - standing completely still.

    If these conditions are not met, the dps of these builds drop dramatically - coincidently, somewhere only a little higher than what reaper is now.

    Using the same theory, necro already has that one magical interaction that boosts their dps closer to the holy grail - Dread: deal 33% increased dmg to foes under the effect of fear. It’s as simple as asking anet to double (triple in the case for reaper) the fear duration of the related shroud fear skills for PvE only, which means necro can then reach these numbers if you simply stack ~6 of them, or 3-4 if they run Fear of Death. Lo and behold, you have your 38k dream!

    /3chars

    Currently meme’ing on core mesmer for PvE content.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2020

    Professions are different for a reason.
    They may do well in one encounter and totally fall flat in another.

    Reaper is one such example, due to Lifeforce availability.
    They may be weaker in Raids but they are stronger elsewhere.

    Similarly yur uber DPS Deadeye may be great in Raids but be doo doo at cleaving for stuff like Dungeons or Fractals.

    While some classes indeed need buffs because they are extremely weak in ALL encounters, I don't think there really is a need to "nerf the top performers, buff the under performers" just by looking at DPS benchmarks for a stupid stationary Golem or for specific encounters.

    Raids aren't the only content in the game, yu can't just balance classes around Raid encounters.

    And besides, each Profession has different specs.
    Yu can't just go "DUR NECRO BAD, REAPER BAD DPS" but on the flip side Scourge support be a viable and sometimes strong addition to the Raid group.

    Similarly, if Core Engi is literal dumpster at anything (which is really sad btw, this is something Anet should look at because Engi is a core profession), Holo exists which does respectable DPS, and Scrapper does offer pretty decent support.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2020

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    When certain professions are only doing 3/4's of the damage in their top DPS spec...they are not viable.

    You don't need to top the dps charts to be "viable", so your statemnet is just wrong.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    Professions are different for a reason.
    They may do well in one encounter and totally fall flat in another.

    Reaper is one such example, due to Lifeforce availability.
    They may be weaker in Raids but they are stronger elsewhere.

    Similarly yur uber DPS Deadeye may be great in Raids but be doo doo at cleaving for stuff like Dungeons or Fractals.

    While some classes indeed need buffs because they are extremely weak in ALL encounters, I don't think there really is a need to "nerf the top performers, buff the under performers" just by looking at DPS benchmarks for a stupid stationary Golem or for specific encounters.

    Raids aren't the only content in the game, yu can't just balance classes around Raid encounters.

    And besides, each Profession has different specs.
    Yu can't just go "DUR NECRO BAD, REAPER BAD DPS" but on the flip side Scourge support be a viable and sometimes strong addition to the Raid group.

    Similarly, if Core Engi is literal dumpster at anything (which is really sad btw, this is something Anet should look at because Engi is a core profession), Holo exists which does respectable DPS, and Scrapper does offer pretty decent support.

    Well, the main issue is less balance than the priorities each individual see in balance. ANet's dev as individual balance toward an image where every profession can hold itself with a bit of work into instance/raid content. The players as individual look at efficiency when they think about the word "balance". Players do not care about minor builds or the fact that anything work, they care about the most effective tactic available. And because dps is a very convenient way to bypass bothersome mechanism in raids encounter, players care about dps. Because offensive support is the best way to have high dps and thus bypass the bothersome mechanism, players look for the most cost effective offensive support.

    In this context, some profession out perform other. The necromancer is and have always been in a bind because it's tools are geared toward environment that are full of conditions and boons. Raids don't offer that and even if it were to offer that, the sheer fact that there is 10 players facing a single foe make it that either the number of conditions and boons would be overwhelming without a full group of necromancer or the necromancer is left fighting with it's teammate for every scrap of boon/condition. In our case, the necromancer face the later option (which is probably for the best if we look at the broad picture).

    There is no way for the current necromancer's tools to put him in a spot where he would compete as an optimal option. And even if he were, it's inate resilience given by the shroud/shade would make him OP and thus a candidate for a much needed nerf.

    When ANet announced the e-spec system with the first expansion, I had hope that it would be a bridge that would help the necromancer to free himself from the broken designs that shackle him but... No. If anything, along the years ANet just strenghtened the shackles not willing to give even the slight bit of relief to the necromancer.

  • XenoSpyro.1780XenoSpyro.1780 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    My condi engineer does ~5k dps on a stationary golem

    I get more burning damage alone on a power class than that. What the Phlunt are you doing?

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XenoSpyro.1780 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    My condi engineer does ~5k dps on a stationary golem

    I get more burning damage alone on a power class than that. What the Phlunt are you doing?

    Probably predicting golem's movement while forgetting it's stationary. :p

  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Infusion.7149 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Why when its the smallest population of content, is PvE so it likely doesn't matter and it also doesn't effect anyone else really. So your damage is not the highest in the group; Its not like it matters when there are no new raid wings in the works and all of that potential content is being pushed into strikes/visions.

    It simply is not fun to know your not competitive in Strike Missions, Raids, or Fractals. Since they are creating more Fractals and Strike Missions. This content needs to be balanced.

    The only way anything will be balanced is if they truly homogenize the game and at that point we will likely loose many more players. Including myself, they just need to bring the others up to the level of those strong classes not the other way around.

    Well I think ultimately what has caused the greatest disparity was when Scholar rune was changed in November 2018 to add +125 ferocity on the 6th bonus. Scholar was already meta before that, so it just exacerbated any underlying issues since you then have +8.3% critical hit damage on top of the +5% while > 90% health. Before that the increase was <7% unless you managed the 10% bonus while >90% health.

    If it weren't for that massive ferocity bonus then you'd close the gap with something like spellbreaker runes (+7% vs boonless but no ferocity) , ogre runes (missing the 6th rune +125 ferocity bonus, +4% flat damage) , or thief runes (+10% while flanking ; currently meta for warrior likely due to the added +125 precision). Coincidentally warrior has a lower personal damage.


    Also, unless your group is a tryhard elitist group I don't think anyone is going to fuss about DPS in strikes and fractals. What does bother people is if you're a greatsword camping mesmer at max range , condi scourge on anything but boneskinner "easymode" comps, or the meme 1500 range ranger on longbow (which has no cleave on auto or rapid fire unless you run marksmanship for piercing which isn't the same as cleave).

    Guardian: have to be pretty bad to get yelled at if you run power greatsword (~16K auto) and sword+focus or even condi axe
    Warrior: while greatsword is slightly less damage than axes ~ 14K, it isn't terrible unless you auto; mace is used for CC ; hammer sees use in WvW prepatch but not so much after Feb 25
    Revenant : any revenant running alacrity and double swords is already decent group-wise and also brings ~14K DPS ; condi revs camping mace already do about 15K ; power herald camping swords about 18K as previously stated ; 10K hammer auto on power herald (which is very rare in PVE)
    Ranger: as stated above, if running skirmishing +beastmastery+soulbeast ~18K is achieved just camping Greatsword... the problem is people being idiots max range longbow off stack getting zero boons
    Thief: lowest bar for doing good damage , staff daredevil does ~22K autoing as stated above
    Engineer: as stated above, just using photon forge can get you 25K auto if you have conditions on the target, camping sword/bomb kit on holo is around 15K
    Mesmer: a full zerk chrono can average around 15K autoing , if you use blurred frenzy (sword 2) it will be higher of course
    Elementalist: as long as you don't run condi your auto on sword weaver can do about 18K with bolt to the heart ; ~10K staff auto
    Necro: needs a bit of help but as stated above it's about 25K in shroud and I think 15-16K camping Greatsword so the biggest issue is life force generation when there aren't deaths (strikes generally don't have them unless your party dies)

    Why are you comparing auto attack chains? Please tell me you aren't advocating for balancing based on people who can't even be kitten to learn the basics of a rotation.

  • Agrippa Oculus.3726Agrippa Oculus.3726 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2020

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    What should they base off of? snowcrows on a stationary DPS golem with full boons? The average player in a real scenario? An average player with quickness + alacrity?

    If you are saying 3/4 damage, classes like power reaper and power herald are consistent even if they're not top DPS. The problem with power reaper (IMO) is only the life force generation when there isn't things dying whiich is why they're stronger in fractals than raids/strikes. I've seen someone benchmark auto attacks and it was something like 25K for reaper shroud and photon forge with 22K for staff daredevil ; 18K for power herald presumably on sword as well as Greatsword soulbeast with skirmishing hitting from side.

    I can tell you for a fact that your average merged Greatsword soulbeast or sword holo (with better cleave and CC) is going to do more than your average chrono that doesn't shatter properly or dragonhunter let alone something considered more complicated such as condi weaver.

    Just something to keep in mind.

    I think this will always remain a stigma that will never get old. Because it's actually proven with statistics now, that (A LOT) higher DPS can be pulled off by mediocre Condi Weaver players compared to veteran (min-maxing) Power Reaper players for instance.
    It doesn't really have to do with the difficulty of the rotation. It has to do with the forgiveness of that rotation. If you miss a beat in the Condi Weaver build, you generally don't drop that much in DPS. If you miss a beat in Reaper Shroud (half of the Power Reapers rotation), which is easy when you for instance take damage in shroud you drop significantly in DPS output.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2020

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Why when its the smallest population of content, is PvE so it likely doesn't matter and it also doesn't effect anyone else really. So your damage is not the highest in the group; Its not like it matters when there are no new raid wings in the works and all of that potential content is being pushed into strikes/visions.

    It simply is not fun to know your not competitive in Strike Missions, Raids, or Fractals. Since they are creating more Fractals and Strike Missions. This content needs to be balanced.

    Then choose better ... play a class that is 'fun'. There isn't a need to balance when you have enough choice to give you what you want.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Brujeria.7536Brujeria.7536 Member ✭✭✭

    I totally agree, balancing DPS by the numbers is not exactly hard. Also from a logical standpoint it doesnt make any sense that pure DPS specs with 0 utility and teambuffs such as reaper does less damage than a warrior or elementalist which naturally can easily provide support.

    The balance decisions in PVE are really mind boggling and make no sense.

  • Agrippa Oculus.3726Agrippa Oculus.3726 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Why when its the smallest population of content, is PvE so it likely doesn't matter and it also doesn't effect anyone else really. So your damage is not the highest in the group; Its not like it matters when there are no new raid wings in the works and all of that potential content is being pushed into strikes/visions.

    It simply is not fun to know your not competitive in Strike Missions, Raids, or Fractals. Since they are creating more Fractals and Strike Missions. This content needs to be balanced.

    Then choose better ... play a class that is 'fun'. There isn't a need to balance when you have enough choice to give you what you want.

    That's a lot easier said than done. If you invested a lot of time in gearing your main character, and you now get to a point (say the PvE endgame) where that class is undesirable at best, it's not THAT easy to just switch class. There is not a very good say unlocking and/or template system in place where ANet caters truly easy class switching! There's absolutely not!

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2020

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Why when its the smallest population of content, is PvE so it likely doesn't matter and it also doesn't effect anyone else really. So your damage is not the highest in the group; Its not like it matters when there are no new raid wings in the works and all of that potential content is being pushed into strikes/visions.

    It simply is not fun to know your not competitive in Strike Missions, Raids, or Fractals. Since they are creating more Fractals and Strike Missions. This content needs to be balanced.

    Then choose better ... play a class that is 'fun'. There isn't a need to balance when you have enough choice to give you what you want.

    That's a lot easier said than done. If you invested a lot of time in gearing your main character, and you now get to a point (say the PvE endgame) where that class is undesirable at best, it's not THAT easy to just switch class. There is not a very good say unlocking and/or template system in place where ANet caters truly easy class switching! There's absolutely not!

    People have to balance what they want against the time they invest to get it. Anyone that has played this game for any significant period of time knows that they have to choose their class for theme or performance ... but they aren't going to get both. That's the nature of this game. Anything is easier said than done ... but if a player values performance over theme, they know how to do that in this game ... rolling characters of different classes.

    @Brujeria.7536 said:
    I totally agree, balancing DPS by the numbers is not exactly hard. Also from a logical standpoint it doesnt make any sense that pure DPS specs with 0 utility and teambuffs such as reaper does less damage than a warrior or elementalist which naturally can easily provide support.

    The balance decisions in PVE are really mind boggling and make no sense.

    That true ... it's not hard ... that's why it's really easy to conclude it's not Anet's target to do so based on how the game is designed. ANet's balance decisions DO make sense if you aren't burdened with self-imposed ideas of what balance means.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Josiah.2967Josiah.2967 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2020

    @Obtena.7952

    I am lost. You are now justifying the imbalance based on "theme balance" .

    The reaper theme from Arenanet:

    Slow and hard-hitting, these deadly combatants call out the impending doom of their enemies with piercing shouts....the reaper wades into melee receiving and dealing blows knowing nothing can save its foes!

    — Reaper release notes

    Nothing about that says, does significantly less DPS than other DPS specs.

    All other successful MMO's balance to make sure every class has a competitive spec for endgame PVE. GW2 now has the widest spread I have seen in ages.

    Then again this is exactly why I switched to the OP Guardian and Mesmer, and am now calling nerfs in those threads. They are so boring. Guardian seems easier to master too.

  • Brujeria.7536Brujeria.7536 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Why when its the smallest population of content, is PvE so it likely doesn't matter and it also doesn't effect anyone else really. So your damage is not the highest in the group; Its not like it matters when there are no new raid wings in the works and all of that potential content is being pushed into strikes/visions.

    It simply is not fun to know your not competitive in Strike Missions, Raids, or Fractals. Since they are creating more Fractals and Strike Missions. This content needs to be balanced.

    Then choose better ... play a class that is 'fun'. There isn't a need to balance when you have enough choice to give you what you want.

    That's a lot easier said than done. If you invested a lot of time in gearing your main character, and you now get to a point (say the PvE endgame) where that class is undesirable at best, it's not THAT easy to just switch class. There is not a very good say unlocking and/or template system in place where ANet caters truly easy class switching! There's absolutely not!

    People have to balance what they want against the time they invest to get it. Anyone that has played this game for any significant period of time knows that they have to choose their class for theme or performance ... but they aren't going to get both. That's the nature of this game. Anything is easier said than done ... but if a player values performance over theme, they know how to do that in this game ... rolling characters of different classes.

    @Brujeria.7536 said:
    I totally agree, balancing DPS by the numbers is not exactly hard. Also from a logical standpoint it doesnt make any sense that pure DPS specs with 0 utility and teambuffs such as reaper does less damage than a warrior or elementalist which naturally can easily provide support.

    The balance decisions in PVE are really mind boggling and make no sense.

    That true ... it's not hard ... that's why it's really easy to conclude it's not Anet's target to do so based on how the game is designed. ANet's balance decisions DO make sense if you aren't burdened with self-imposed ideas of what balance means.

    Well balance means equality either between all options or between the direct opposites. If you look at equality in a certain game mode you need to consider what this gamemode values. In PVP Mobility is highly valued for decaping and map controll. In PVE not so. The biggest feat for PVE is DPS. Its really not hard to balance all classes at the same DPS number if they spec for it. This has no effect on any other gamemode. Its just numbers, no functionality changes. The other factor that matters here is team support. This support has more facets, healing, preventing damage, boons, corruptions, condition controll, stealth etc. and can not be balanced as easily as its depending on the encounters and its value is not as easily measured and streamlined as dps is.

    But given that some professions with builds that spec for 0 team support and full focus on damage have less dps than other classes WITH support is mind boggling and the epitome of no balance. You can balance and value support differently, but the core value you need in ANY encounter in PVE is Damage, and damage is soley measured on the numbers.

    Also a class can have a good performance and a good theme. A "good" theme is highly up to the liking and sense of the individual playing. Person A can say Engineers have a great theme, Person B can say Engineers have the worst theme. It does not matter as you cant compare themes. You dont balance between two factors that have completly no connection. They could swap the skills of professions and mechanics around and it would still not matter. If they give The current guardian profession mechanic to necros, "Orders" instead of Vitues and Guardian "Angelic Form" instead of Deathshroud it would still not matter. Its still Performance vs. Performance and Theme Vs. Theme.

    Only the performance matters in terms of balance for PVE. And the performance really should be the same across all professions and all playtypes of these professions.

    That does not mean however, that the professions should FEEL the same. The playstyle currently is very distinct, and that is wonderfull. But again, the playstyle should equal the same performance, if you willingly spec for the same goal which, in case of PvE, is DPS.

  • Agrippa Oculus.3726Agrippa Oculus.3726 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Why when its the smallest population of content, is PvE so it likely doesn't matter and it also doesn't effect anyone else really. So your damage is not the highest in the group; Its not like it matters when there are no new raid wings in the works and all of that potential content is being pushed into strikes/visions.

    It simply is not fun to know your not competitive in Strike Missions, Raids, or Fractals. Since they are creating more Fractals and Strike Missions. This content needs to be balanced.

    Then choose better ... play a class that is 'fun'. There isn't a need to balance when you have enough choice to give you what you want.

    That's a lot easier said than done. If you invested a lot of time in gearing your main character, and you now get to a point (say the PvE endgame) where that class is undesirable at best, it's not THAT easy to just switch class. There is not a very good say unlocking and/or template system in place where ANet caters truly easy class switching! There's absolutely not!

    People have to balance what they want against the time they invest to get it. Anyone that has played this game for any significant period of time knows that they have to choose their class for theme or performance ... but they aren't going to get both.

    Why not?
    I just happen to love the theme of the guardian ... AND it happens to be one of the best performing classes in the game (actually in pretty much every gamemode right now).
    So what you're saying is incorrect ...
    You just have to be lucky when you choose your class by theme ...

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Why when its the smallest population of content, is PvE so it likely doesn't matter and it also doesn't effect anyone else really. So your damage is not the highest in the group; Its not like it matters when there are no new raid wings in the works and all of that potential content is being pushed into strikes/visions.

    It simply is not fun to know your not competitive in Strike Missions, Raids, or Fractals. Since they are creating more Fractals and Strike Missions. This content needs to be balanced.

    Then choose better ... play a class that is 'fun'. There isn't a need to balance when you have enough choice to give you what you want.

    That's a lot easier said than done. If you invested a lot of time in gearing your main character, and you now get to a point (say the PvE endgame) where that class is undesirable at best, it's not THAT easy to just switch class. There is not a very good say unlocking and/or template system in place where ANet caters truly easy class switching! There's absolutely not!

    People have to balance what they want against the time they invest to get it. Anyone that has played this game for any significant period of time knows that they have to choose their class for theme or performance ... but they aren't going to get both.

    Why not?
    I just happen to love the theme of the guardian ... AND it happens to be one of the best performing classes in the game (actually in pretty much every gamemode right now).
    So what you're saying is incorrect ...
    You just have to be lucky when you choose your class by theme ...

    No it's not incorrect at all. No one should expect that they should get performance and theme with whatever choice they want to play. You did get lucky .. but that doesn't make what I said wrong.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2020

    @Brujeria.7536 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Why when its the smallest population of content, is PvE so it likely doesn't matter and it also doesn't effect anyone else really. So your damage is not the highest in the group; Its not like it matters when there are no new raid wings in the works and all of that potential content is being pushed into strikes/visions.

    It simply is not fun to know your not competitive in Strike Missions, Raids, or Fractals. Since they are creating more Fractals and Strike Missions. This content needs to be balanced.

    Then choose better ... play a class that is 'fun'. There isn't a need to balance when you have enough choice to give you what you want.

    That's a lot easier said than done. If you invested a lot of time in gearing your main character, and you now get to a point (say the PvE endgame) where that class is undesirable at best, it's not THAT easy to just switch class. There is not a very good say unlocking and/or template system in place where ANet caters truly easy class switching! There's absolutely not!

    People have to balance what they want against the time they invest to get it. Anyone that has played this game for any significant period of time knows that they have to choose their class for theme or performance ... but they aren't going to get both. That's the nature of this game. Anything is easier said than done ... but if a player values performance over theme, they know how to do that in this game ... rolling characters of different classes.

    @Brujeria.7536 said:
    I totally agree, balancing DPS by the numbers is not exactly hard. Also from a logical standpoint it doesnt make any sense that pure DPS specs with 0 utility and teambuffs such as reaper does less damage than a warrior or elementalist which naturally can easily provide support.

    The balance decisions in PVE are really mind boggling and make no sense.

    That true ... it's not hard ... that's why it's really easy to conclude it's not Anet's target to do so based on how the game is designed. ANet's balance decisions DO make sense if you aren't burdened with self-imposed ideas of what balance means.

    Well balance means equality either between all options or between the direct opposites.

    Sure, that's your definition of it. Clearly, Anet has their own. Frankly, what Anet does is not what I would call balance ... or what anyone else would call it, but that's just semantics. Whatever they 'balance' to, it's obviously not some notion of equivalent performance between classes.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2020

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    I am lost. You are now justifying the imbalance based on "theme balance" .

    You are lost, because you are imposing your own ideas of what balance means on a game you don't control. I'm not justifying anything ... it's EXACTLY how this game has worked for almost 8 years now.

    People need to get with the program here. Anet isn't wrong in their approach just because they don't conform to what other studios do in other games for balancing. They don't have to, because the game doesn't need classes to have equivalent performance at some player-defined level for players to succeed.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • skarpak.8594skarpak.8594 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2020

    there is a lot of things you have to consider when looking at the dps of specs. for example that necromancer is a selfbuffing beast which gets up 25 might, 25 vuln on the enemy and 100% critchance ezpz without sacrificing anything. apart from that its basically unkillable and has a not too bad burst with wells when being solo.

    now if you are a person which never raided and is only playing arround in some loose groups / only openworld without coordination at all and looks at some dps table tailored to raids and concludes: the balance is bad! ...then i can only say one thing: you. are. wrong.
    in this case the balance is only bad in one single area in the game: in raids or other 10 man highly organized group content with absolute top players which alwas give their 100%.....and purly in raids under the condition that you see this single dps build, we don't want to forget that necro for example has one of the most op healer carry builds and another one which even puts out quite some damage for being a healer carry build.

    i am not saying that the blanace is good btw. i also don't know where anets goal is in terms of damage or if they even have one.

    but in the end there is more then raids in this game. in the end there are high skill ceiling builds like condition weaver and you can call it unbalanced 24/7 but the real scenario is: there are only a handful players which can even pump out that kitten.
    and then there is the rest of the world. install arc and look at any worldboss where you are still fully buffed with might and kitten and see what players are doing. dog kitten dps. even those which copypasted snowcrows and think they are good.

    in this game there is only one thing that makes you have that big kitten dps...and thats your own kitten skill. everything else is just potentionally something something for most people. get on that reaper, invest that time and git gud and then proceed to outdps anyone everywhere. sure, now you could fare better on another class...but in the end it doesn't matter that much.
    right now there are a lot of builds close to eachother and through the balance change we got quite a bit higher numbers apart from necromancer, thats true. but does it matter for 99% of the players? no it doesn't. simply because necro is solo still one of the top tier classes one can play. its a kitten wet dream for anything. 5 target group pull on 1,2k range? check. perma might, 100% critchance and 25 vuln? check. kitten of blinds / cc? check? quickness? check. has a second hp bar? check. aoe? everything necro does is aoe wth.

    if you really want to discuss game balance on a higher level then you need to get an idea of the whole game first. its not enough to look at snowcrows and say: this class is kitten because it has way too low dps. you are making a fool out of yourself.

    you did not even include killtime / phase time which is already a huge factor to descide if a condi build or a power build is better for something. or cooldown times. how good your own team fares to really make a class shine since you can push on the whole rotation with timings well better. the only thing you did was looking at the chart and concluded: this profession bad. master of balance for sure.
    in the end only a handful of people can push far enough to do certain things. take your usual vg pug / avg guild group, put in a reaper and they all will do relativly compareable dps except if you got that one player which puts in some more effort than the rest.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I first damage mostly the same. And second, main m ind - why it should be same I don't know.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Josiah.2967Josiah.2967 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It is time to stop hiding behind unjustified overpowered unbalanced specs while trying to justify others being low. It's time to have a level playing field where you can't hide behind your OP profession.

    I myself am a mediocre Guardian and Mesmer easily doing 5k more dps than my main while still learning the rotation in raids. I can easily do 8k more on HP sponges that allow me to focus on DPS with my mesmer. So much easier to play in raids too without having to manage life force and having better survivability. I can even take more damage without sacrificing my dps. It's time for balance with end game content. End game PVE currently includes T4 fractals, Stike Missions, and Raida.

    If you really don't want to buff the weak, it's time for nerf hammers to really do some damage to the top dps specs. Especially the ones that have been consistantly top tier for years.

    Note: Shared buffs will always be more valuable thsn self buffs. I am not even asking to take that into consideration for DPS balance, but maybe we should.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2020

    No one is hiding behind anything. There are game design decisions that result in Anet not needing balanced DPS between classes. It's not a debate about who's wrong or right; it's simply a recognition that GW2 isn't designed like a typical MMO and that leads to the situation we have with classes. Anet gives players choice. WHATEVER criteria you want to use to filter those classes, there should be an option in those 9 classes to give you what you want. If you want DPS, you need to choose DPS.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Bealis.6023Bealis.6023 Member ✭✭
    edited April 3, 2020

    As long as raids are just a small part of the game, I believe it could be smarter to actually rework raid mechanics, than to balance all professions to raids as a template.
    For instance placing max dps ceiling one can do to raid bosses and lowering their health a bit.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bealis.6023 said:
    As long as raids are just a small part of the game, I believe it could be smarter to actually rework raid mechanics, than to balance all professions to raids as a template.
    For instance placing max dps ceiling one can do to raid bosses and lowering their health a bit.

    Unfortunately it would solve nothing. Doing that would make players with a seemingly harder to play main profession cry that there is no reason to play their profession because the seemingly easiest one can do the job "more reliably". We've got years of this argument already, we all know how it would end up.

    The point is that there will always be a profession that will hold the title of "most effective profession" and this profession will be favored in PvE content and complain about by other professions. When it was elementalists it was the case, when it was core condi ranger it was the case, when it was necromancer's epi bounce it was the case and I'm pretty sure guardian, thief, revenant, mesmer and warrior faced the same thing.

    Truth be told, the necromancer have half of it's mechanisms (boon corruption/condition manipulation) only really working in sPvP environment while the other half (the shroud) hover in an awkward state where it can't deal to much damage due to it's fondamentally defensive nature yet is the recipient of all the effort of the balance team to give the necromancer some dps. Design wise it's like trying to put a large round piece into a tiny square hole, it's no wonder it doesn't work.

  • Brujeria.7536Brujeria.7536 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Bealis.6023 said:
    As long as raids are just a small part of the game, I believe it could be smarter to actually rework raid mechanics, than to balance all professions to raids as a template.
    For instance placing max dps ceiling one can do to raid bosses and lowering their health a bit.

    Unfortunately it would solve nothing. Doing that would make players with a seemingly harder to play main profession cry that there is no reason to play their profession because the seemingly easiest one can do the job "more reliably". We've got years of this argument already, we all know how it would end up.

    Ultimately you should be able to play the profession you wanna play and not be punished because you wanna play that profession. If all professions would do about equal damage you have exactly 2 types of scenarios: Players who want the most optimal result and choose their profession based on that factor (as it is now in raids). And players that play the profession they like. Nobody would take any harm in that scenario.

    The point is that there will always be a profession that will hold the title of "most effective profession" and this profession will be favored in PvE content and complain about by other professions. When it was elementalists it was the case, when it was core condi ranger it was the case, when it was necromancer's epi bounce it was the case and I'm pretty sure guardian, thief, revenant, mesmer and warrior faced the same thing.

    Epi bounce was really an edge case as it was highly dependant on the encounter, which is bad. Just as bad as the damage difference between hitboxes is, its just a unreliable mess. Speaking about the "most effective profession" its totaly fine to have differences in DPS, 3%, 5% is all fine and reasonable, but the huge gaps we currently have are not.

    Truth be told, the necromancer have half of it's mechanisms (boon corruption/condition manipulation) only really working in sPvP environment while the other half (the shroud) hover in an awkward state where it can't deal to much damage due to it's fondamentally defensive nature yet is the recipient of all the effort of the balance team to give the necromancer some dps. Design wise it's like trying to put a large round piece into a tiny square hole, it's no wonder it doesn't work.

    Its actually not that hard to balance necro for DPS even with these things in mind. All condition manipulation comes from traits or some utility skills, if you bump up the utlity skills that should increase damage and also the traits that should increase damage you fixed the problem. Pick either DPS or these aspects. The best part here: it are just number changes, you dont need to do any mechanical changes at all.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Brujeria.7536 said:

    Truth be told, the necromancer have half of it's mechanisms (boon corruption/condition manipulation) only really working in sPvP environment while the other half (the shroud) hover in an awkward state where it can't deal to much damage due to it's fondamentally defensive nature yet is the recipient of all the effort of the balance team to give the necromancer some dps. Design wise it's like trying to put a large round piece into a tiny square hole, it's no wonder it doesn't work.

    Its actually not that hard to balance necro for DPS even with these things in mind. All condition manipulation comes from traits or some utility skills, if you bump up the utlity skills that should increase damage and also the traits that should increase damage you fixed the problem. Pick either DPS or these aspects. The best part here: it are just number changes, you dont need to do any mechanical changes at all.

    That's not fixing the problem that's just adding damage by playing with numbers. Not acknowledging that some designs/mechanisms are broken and need fixing is the main issue of this game.

  • @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Why when its the smallest population of content, is PvE so it likely doesn't matter and it also doesn't effect anyone else really. So your damage is not the highest in the group; Its not like it matters when there are no new raid wings in the works and all of that potential content is being pushed into strikes/visions.

    It simply is not fun to know your not competitive in Strike Missions, Raids, or Fractals. Since they are creating more Fractals and Strike Missions. This content needs to be balanced.

    Then choose better ... play a class that is 'fun'. There isn't a need to balance when you have enough choice to give you what you want.

    That's a lot easier said than done. If you invested a lot of time in gearing your main character, and you now get to a point (say the PvE endgame) where that class is undesirable at best, it's not THAT easy to just switch class. There is not a very good say unlocking and/or template system in place where ANet caters truly easy class switching! There's absolutely not!

    People have to balance what they want against the time they invest to get it. Anyone that has played this game for any significant period of time knows that they have to choose their class for theme or performance ... but they aren't going to get both.

    Why not?
    I just happen to love the theme of the guardian ... AND it happens to be one of the best performing classes in the game (actually in pretty much every gamemode right now).
    So what you're saying is incorrect ...
    You just have to be lucky when you choose your class by theme ...

    No it's not incorrect at all. No one should expect that they should get performance and theme with whatever choice they want to play. You did get lucky .. but that doesn't make what I said wrong.

    I see what you were trying to say and I understand you, but you were not saying that though. You were saying: "but they aren't going to get both". You didnt say: You cannot expect to get both! There's a big difference there.

    Normally I'd never call someone out on something small like this, but you're notoriously well-known for not even once admitting you might be a tiny bit on the wrong side of the spectrum, or that you've made a mistake. And I've got a feeling you're still not going to do that right now ... (if you do, I'll gladly admit I was wrong though :))

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2020

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Why when its the smallest population of content, is PvE so it likely doesn't matter and it also doesn't effect anyone else really. So your damage is not the highest in the group; Its not like it matters when there are no new raid wings in the works and all of that potential content is being pushed into strikes/visions.

    It simply is not fun to know your not competitive in Strike Missions, Raids, or Fractals. Since they are creating more Fractals and Strike Missions. This content needs to be balanced.

    Then choose better ... play a class that is 'fun'. There isn't a need to balance when you have enough choice to give you what you want.

    That's a lot easier said than done. If you invested a lot of time in gearing your main character, and you now get to a point (say the PvE endgame) where that class is undesirable at best, it's not THAT easy to just switch class. There is not a very good say unlocking and/or template system in place where ANet caters truly easy class switching! There's absolutely not!

    People have to balance what they want against the time they invest to get it. Anyone that has played this game for any significant period of time knows that they have to choose their class for theme or performance ... but they aren't going to get both.

    Why not?
    I just happen to love the theme of the guardian ... AND it happens to be one of the best performing classes in the game (actually in pretty much every gamemode right now).
    So what you're saying is incorrect ...
    You just have to be lucky when you choose your class by theme ...

    No it's not incorrect at all. No one should expect that they should get performance and theme with whatever choice they want to play. You did get lucky .. but that doesn't make what I said wrong.

    I see what you were trying to say and I understand you, but you were not saying that though. You were saying: "but they aren't going to get both". You didnt say: You cannot expect to get both! There's a big difference there.

    Normally I'd never call someone out on something small like this, but you're notoriously well-known for not even once admitting you might be a tiny bit on the wrong side of the spectrum, or that you've made a mistake. And I've got a feeling you're still not going to do that right now ... (if you do, I'll gladly admit I was wrong though :))

    If you know how notoriously well-known I am, you will know I'm not going to go down arguing something as pedantic as this with you. You admit you understand what I was trying to say ... I will leave it right there. I don't care if you were wrong or right. The point is that people have choices to make to get the classes that conform to whatever factors they want to base those choices on. It's always been like that in any MMO I've ever played and GW2 isn't an exception to that. IF some combination of more than one factor is something a player wants and they get it on one class, great for them.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2020

    I feel like I have to point out that buffing something like reaper to the dps level of other professions would be a complete disaster balance wise. The other tools that a build brings absolutely matter, but many people like to ignore this whenever it's not convenient. If reaper had top tier damage potential we would enter the least diverse and most stale meta that this game has ever seen. The meta comp would probably look something like 7x reaper, 1x dps FB, 1x alacrigade, and maybe 1x druid. You could easily afford to have only 1 dps FB to provide a bit of quickness, because reapers already give themselves tons of free might and quickness for no effort whatsoever. Then you also have the high HP pool and shroud hp covering for your mistakes way better than any other class can, which makes reaper a safe choice as well. So you end up with even casuals able to make groups with mostly reapers and doing all the content. You'd end up with most groups doing even more dps than before and with less risk. There would be no reason to take any other class ever.

    Reaper is already the go to noob choice because of how easy it is to not be a burden to your group, and because it can function well even with bad supports. Let's not make it the top choice for every skill level while making the game into easymode. There needs to be a reward for actually taking a risk with squishier classes, or with classes that actually require your supports to know what they are doing.

  • Josiah.2967Josiah.2967 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I can not believe what I am reading. Even if Reaper had the same max dps as abother spec, if they take any damage their dps would go down. I am ok with up to a 5% difference.

    Reaper isn't the only low end. It is obviously by your responses it is significantly low end. Thank you for indirectly proving my point. The gap is way to big right now, to the point it is extremely unhealthy for the games end game content.

    Reapers do not have good sustain in raids. Guardian has much better sustain in raids.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2020

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    I can not believe what I am reading. Even if Reaper had the same max dps as abother spec, if they take any damage their dps would go down. I am ok with up to a 5% difference.

    Reaper isn't the only low end. It is obviously by your responses it is significantly low end. Thank you for indirectly proving my point. The gap is way to big right now, to the point it is extremely unhealthy for the games end game content.

    Reapers do not have good sustain in raids. Guardian has much better sustain in raids.

    These things aren't being disagreed with. They just aren't relevant in this game. It's unhealthy? Maybe ... but not enough to bother changing it. Players ideas about how this should work are tainted by their expectations that aren't aligned with how this game is designed. The solution to this already exists: Choice.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    I feel like I have to point out that buffing something like reaper to the dps level of other professions would be a complete disaster balance wise. The other tools that a build brings absolutely matter, but many people like to ignore this whenever it's not convenient. If reaper had top tier damage potential we would enter the least diverse and most stale meta that this game has ever seen. The meta comp would probably look something like 7x reaper, 1x dps FB, 1x alacrigade, and maybe 1x druid.

    How exactly is this different to current meta with that amount of guardians/mesmers stacked on overy boss? Currently you are stacking firebrands in like every gamemode. Condi fb is so op that it can outburst multiple power builds and then there is the super balanced tome reset.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ganathar.4956
    You're right because the shroud is a balance issue in itself (No tool should be able to shield health while dishing out top damage at the same time for extended duration).
    You're wrong because a poorly played reaper don't fare any better than any other profession poorly played.

    Since meta builds have become dominant and advertised in GW2, players always turned themself toward what have been proven to be the most effective choices. Reaper's having competitive dps might prove to be more effective than elementalist having competitive dps but it doesn't mean that a poorly played reaper with competitive dps will be more effective than a well played elementalist.

    In an ideal world you just play the profession that you're the most proficient in for the same damage potential. In GW2, you just ignore what's not proven to be effective. This is where the problem lie. It's not that the shroud isn't a broken mechanism. It is! But it doesn't mean either that the necromancer should be kept out of being competitive because it's broken. If anything balance should strive to fix what is broken in the shroud while at the same time make the profession competitive in an healthy way. (Something that ANet's devs seem to be completly oblivious about. They are set on specific designs for each profession and don't seem to care much whether those design are healthy or not for their in-game experience.)

  • Brujeria.7536Brujeria.7536 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    @Ganathar.4956
    You're right because the shroud is a balance issue in itself (No tool should be able to shield health while dishing out top damage at the same time for extended duration).
    You're wrong because a poorly played reaper don't fare any better than any other profession poorly played.

    Not really, shroud does kitten damage for core nec. For Reaper it does good damage, but is also limited and, if you want achieve any form of good DPS you need rotation, hence you cant choose when to go in shroud for defense unless you seriously hinder your own dps. Also you dont NEED that defense in the first place. Every other class can easily survive raid mechanics even without shroud, so your argument holds no value here. You arent forced to use shroud to survive as necro either.

    Since meta builds have become dominant and advertised in GW2, players always turned themself toward what have been proven to be the most effective choices. Reaper's having competitive dps might prove to be more effective than elementalist having competitive dps but it doesn't mean that a poorly played reaper with competitive dps will be more effective than a well played elementalist.

    No, there are 2 types of players: Players that play for the result - they will always play the meta class no matter what the FotM is. And players that play for fun or because they like a certain profession. These Players are naturally forced out of raids because of the HUGE dps difference. If they balance all professions roughly withing 5% of dps nothing would change for the META players, but everything changes for the players that play for fun. You can play your profession in raids, no matter what, you are not hindering anybody, you dont bring down the DPS. Really, it would have no downside for nobody.

    In an ideal world you just play the profession that you're the most proficient in for the same damage potential. In GW2, you just ignore what's not proven to be effective. This is where the problem lie. It's not that the shroud isn't a broken mechanism. It is! But it doesn't mean either that the necromancer should be kept out of being competitive because it's broken. If anything balance should strive to fix what is broken in the shroud while at the same time make the profession competitive in an healthy way. (Something that ANet's devs seem to be completly oblivious about. They are set on specific designs for each profession and don't seem to care much whether those design are healthy or not for their in-game experience.)

    Again shroud isnt broken in the slightest. You could say the same about any class. Why is elementalist allowed to have support and heals even though it is built for DPS? Why does it always have water attunement? Why does engineer have more toolbelt skills / heals / stunbreaks even though its meant for DPS? Why does rev have 2 healing skills and buff support even though its built for DPS? Why does Warrior deal DPS even if hes built for support? Nothing is wrong with the design of shroud. Its a limited set of skills which are even way too weak in PVE in terms of base shroud.

  • @Ganathar.4956 said:
    I feel like I have to point out that buffing something like reaper to the dps level of other professions would be a complete disaster balance wise. The other tools that a build brings absolutely matter, but many people like to ignore this whenever it's not convenient. If reaper had top tier damage potential we would enter the least diverse and most stale meta that this game has ever seen. The meta comp would probably look something like 7x reaper, 1x dps FB, 1x alacrigade, and maybe 1x druid. You could easily afford to have only 1 dps FB to provide a bit of quickness, because reapers already give themselves tons of free might and quickness for no effort whatsoever. Then you also have the high HP pool and shroud hp covering for your mistakes way better than any other class can, which makes reaper a safe choice as well. So you end up with even casuals able to make groups with mostly reapers and doing all the content. You'd end up with most groups doing even more dps than before and with less risk. There would be no reason to take any other class ever.

    Reaper is already the go to noob choice because of how easy it is to not be a burden to your group, and because it can function well even with bad supports. Let's not make it the top choice for every skill level while making the game into easymode. There needs to be a reward for actually taking a risk with squishier classes, or with classes that actually require your supports to know what they are doing.

    You're probably right that you'll see (a lot) more Reapers in Raids, etc. when dps is buffed to competitive levels, but that's not for the reasons you're giving, it's because of the theme. It's a theme that is always chosen a lot in every single (MMO)RPG ... And when it's finally on the level of every other class in this PvE endgame, it will see a lot more play, obviously.

    Furthermore, about your safety and lesser risk claim: people always tend to forget, that every other single class can be given Marauder gear and is safer to play and will still do more DPS than a Reaper. But thinking out of the Berserker box is absolutely blasphemy here!

    Lastly, the buffing advantage of a Reaper is imo exaggerated. Take might for instance: it can be found across the board, it's far from a Reaper only thing. What is pretty much Reaper only about that though, is the fact that it's purely selfish buffing, whereas quite a few other classes at least have the ability to buff teammates with it as well. Even the self quickness isnt THAT great, cause it's never going to be 100% uptime, so you always need an external supplier. What is worrying though is Reapers abundant access to Fury ... A widely available buff across most classes, except for that one class .... the Necro (except when you go into curses, which you wont as a power Reaper).
    Look, don't get me wrong, the Reaper (or Necro in general) IS self sufficient up to a certain point, not 100%, but no class is. But every other class is self-sufficient as well, the only big difference is that with every other class you have to look at other builds/gear/etc. than Meta, to make the game as you said it: more "easymode". The Necro or more specifically the Reaper only has its meta build!

    In other words, for every other class you're able to take off your training wheels and dish out some serious damage when you're ready for it (OR NOT, whatever you prefer). The Necro simply doesn't have that option!
    And it's even worse, if you make use of your training wheels as a Reaper (shroud), your DPS drops a lot further than pretty much any other class with there training wheels on!