What happens when you nerf every class into the ground - A cautionary tale — Guild Wars 2 Forums

What happens when you nerf every class into the ground - A cautionary tale

Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭
edited March 24, 2020 in PVP

What happens when you systematically strip away "bloat" which is a fancy term for cutting mechanics, trait synergies, and sometimes... entire abilities (Looking at you threads that want to have firebrand tomes removed).

I won't sit here and spout off doomsday prophecies. Instead, I will link you to threads and videos posted about a game that did exactly that. You may believe that these changes helped to bring about a move balanced landscape, but... I'll just let these people speak for me.

A legnthy reddit post that goes into detail about how classes feel after repeated rounds of pruning and nerfs.

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/car0uh/class_design_is_still_one_of_the_worst_parts_of/

A very informative video of how Arcane mage plays.
Note how he casts arcane missle. And then follows that up with an arcane missle. Next he makes the tactical decision to cast arcane missle, but only after first casting arcane-- you get where this is going. `

A Dev insider post where the devs admit that they may have gone too far when trimming classes down. If you haven't been keeping up with Blizzad's many, many mishaps lately (cough Do you guys not have phones cough Free Hong Kong) You might know that getting Blizzard to admit something went wrong means that something must have gone very wrong. `

https://www.wowhead.com/news=292386/class-design-too-much-pruning-pvp-gear-from-pve-developer-insights-with-ion-hazz

But I hear you thinking, with all the nerfs, surely PvP is more balanced... Weeeeellll--

And I assure you, this is only the tip of the iceburg.


Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's never right to nerf a class. Sometimes, classes overperform and need to be brought in line. You see this in just about any competetive online game. However, I strongly advise thinking twice when you suggest nerfs that strip away class mechanics. Whether it be nerfing synergies or simplifying mechanics. Changes like these may not bring about the kind of game you're hoping for. `

Comments

  • @Kuma.1503 said:
    What happens when you systematically strip away "bloat" which is a fancy term for cutting mechanics, trait synergies, and sometimes... entire abilities (Looking at you threads that want to have firebrand tomes removed).

    But something must be done about them one way or another, access to 3 tomes is nono and screws balance too much on its own.
    Honestly speaking, there wouldn't be any kind of "need" for that nuke from the orbit to nerf everything to the ground IF e-speces were properly designed and balanced from the very beginning with clear "strong" and "weak" sides, not "whatever, straight powerup" like it was and still is present for certain classes. People will now cry and whine about "taking away mechanics", but in reality some of them shouldn't even be there from the very release. Like look at Warriors Berserker e-spec, it had from get-go access to core BURST and BERSERKER mode which was a bad design decision, after it was taken away people were crying "unplayable".
    To put it in simpler terms: A-net gave players big fancy cake and cookies in one-go and it created diabetes, when they've decided to take away either cake or cookies, people started to cry because they've already been high on sugar. This is the same for most of GW2 life after HoT and PoF release. A-net should from the very beginning give players e-speces that weren't core+.
    Good designed elite specializations in this game for me are: Reaper, Scourge, Scrapper and Berserker(after reworks) and to some degree Tempest/Holosmith/Chronomancer(still need rework on F-skills to have proper identity). Of course, they look great on paper, but balance-wise meh, still need a lot of work to fix them properly.
    Now compare these to: Mirage, Weaver, Daredevil, Deadeye, Soulbeast, Druid, Spellbreaker.
    They don't change your playstyle that much, they're just core+ at this point, because their design is bad. They don't have their own identity.
    Firebrand is in akward position, the idea of tomes is quite good and all, but giving access to all 3 of them at any given time makes it a clear core+ e-spec.
    And there is forgotten child core Revenant that was created AROUND it's elite-spec Herald, Kalla have no true identity(ranger spirits but worse).
    Most of these e-speces came out as much stronger variants compared to their core counterpart(Firebrad, Mirage, etc.), which began somekind of race of powercreep(let's buff x to keep up with y, let's buff y to keep up with z, let's buff z to keep up with x). It continued for years and many people have left the game because of that. The nuke was needed and on certain classes nerfs are still needed.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    WoW has a mana system, right? So they will spam the strongest skill. In GW2 we have cooldowns instead, except for thief, firebrand and revenant.

    Wow has both mana and cooldowns. Most specs in recent times have ditched the mana system in favor of a builder / spender playstyle. Essentially, press your weak skill which has no cooldown to build X resource, then spend resource on button Y which deals more damage and often has a long cooldown attatched. Outside of that, you press your damage over time skill and make sure to keep it up whenever it falls off, hit your offensive CD's off cooldown, and press the hardest hitting buttons with the longest cooldowns first. Most rotations are anywhere from 1-5 steps long so classes have very small learning curves. (I was able to get near perfect benchmarks despite being relatively new to the game)

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2020

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    What happens when you systematically strip away "bloat" which is a fancy term for cutting mechanics, trait synergies, and sometimes... entire abilities (Looking at you threads that want to have firebrand tomes removed).

    To put it in simpler terms: A-net gave players big fancy cake and cookies in one-go and it created diabetes, when they've decided to take away either cake or cookies, people started to cry because they've already been high on sugar. This is the same for most of GW2 life after HoT and PoF release. A-net should from the very beginning give players e-speces that weren't core+.

    Hoo boy, If I had a cookie for the amount of times I heard the "You just want to have your cake and eat it too" analogy. Especially on the transition from WoD to Legion, which is when Blizzard really went ham on taking things away then forcing players to choose which one they'd like to get back.

    Disclaimer: toning down sustain numbers, boon spam, and damage was the right choice for PvP. I won't even begin to dispute that things were out of hand before. My post does not exist to say that powercreep wasn't an issue. It's a cautionary tale for those that seek to point out design flaws where none exist and nerf things which are not an issue (Cries to nerf Renegade for example)

    I actually like what they did to Soulbeast despite Anet taking something away. SB already stayed merged in PvE, and it actually increases the difficulty of the class in other areas of the game since you must be mindful of which pet you're using before engaging a fight. (Plus it should have had one pet to begin with). I am not always opposed to nerfs which cut mechanics so long as they're done well. In SBs' case it made more sense for them thematically so it's a win-win. `

    All that being said...

    I have a different take on E-specs, and that's that they should be allowed to add something on top of core specs, but should act as specialists. I'd argue most E-specs do accomplish this well. Druid in it's current state sacrifices damage in order to specialize in healing. If you want a dps spec, you either run Soulbeast or you run core.

    Reaper gains a stronger shroud, but sacrifices the duration (and by extention durability) that core shroud provides. Weaver is a weird one. It doesn't actually add that much outside of a dual skill, but it completely changes the playstyle of the class.

    I will always advocate nerfs which bring elite specs in line so long as it doesn't come at the cost of complexity or skill cap. If firebrand were to specialize in support/utility and lose a significant portion of damage dealt as a consequence, I'd be all for that change. It wouldn't dumb down the class in any way, but it would make you think twice before taking one over a core guard. Do you want the utility firebrand can provide even though your group will effectively be down half a man damage wise? Removing tomes would bring them in line, but it would also dumb down the class and kill the fun for people who came to love it for it's increased complexity. A game should, above all else, be fun, even if we must shift the bar of what was once an acceptable standard of balance.
    `

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    What happens when you systematically strip away "bloat" which is a fancy term for cutting mechanics, trait synergies, and sometimes... entire abilities (Looking at you threads that want to have firebrand tomes removed).

    To put it in simpler terms: A-net gave players big fancy cake and cookies in one-go and it created diabetes, when they've decided to take away either cake or cookies, people started to cry because they've already been high on sugar. This is the same for most of GW2 life after HoT and PoF release. A-net should from the very beginning give players e-speces that weren't core+.

    Hoo boy, If I had a cookie for the amount of times I heard the "You just want to have your cake and eat it too" analogy. Especially on the transition from WoD to Legion, which is when Blizzard really went ham on taking things away then forcing players to choose which one they'd like to get back.

    Disclaimer: toning down sustain numbers, boon spam, and damage was the right choice for PvP. I won't even begin to dispute that things were out of hand before. My post does not exist to say that powercreep wasn't an issue. It's a cautionary tale for those that seek to point out design flaws where none exist and nerf things which are not an issue (Cries to nerf Renegade for example)

    I actually like what they did to Soulbeast despite Anet taking something away. SB already stayed merged in PvE, and it actually increases the difficulty of the class in other areas of the game since you must be mindful of which pet you're using before engaging a fight. (Plus it should have had one pet to begin with). I am not always opposed to nerfs which cut mechanics so long as they're done well. In SBs' case it made more sense for them thematically so it's a win-win. `

    All that being said...

    I have a different take on E-specs, and that's that they should be allowed to add something on top of core specs, but should act as specialists. I'd argue most E-specs do accomplish this well. Druid in it's current state sacrifices damage in order to specialize in healing. If you want a dps spec, you either run Soulbeast or you run core.

    Reaper gains a stronger shroud, but sacrifices the duration (and by extention durability) that core shroud provides. Weaver is a weird one. It doesn't actually add that much outside of a dual skill, but it completely changes the playstyle of the class.

    I will always advocate nerfs which bring elite specs in line so long as it doesn't come at the cost of complexity or skill cap. If firebrand were to specialize in support/utility and lose a significant portion of damage dealt as a consequence, I'd be all for that change. It wouldn't dumb down the class in any way, but it would make you think twice before taking one over a core guard. Do you want the utility firebrand can provide even though your group will effectively be down half a man damage wise? Removing tomes would bring them in line, but it would also dumb down the class and kill the fun for people who came to love it for it's increased complexity. A game should, above all else, be fun, even if we must shift the bar of what was once an acceptable standard of balance.
    `

    Its more along the lines of people whine about x class and blizzard listens and nerfs them too hard. Blizzard loves to also favor melee classes and a lot of kids play wow still who whine when they fight let's say, rogue because people love to whine about rogue as much as a thief in gw2.

    The thing about wow is, they favor melee over casters heavily in PVP, and sometimes hybrids over pure.

    It looks like they don't have a full team testing each class and don't care about some of the specs. Some specs are neglected more and prey tell what classes do they most favor? well, melee mostly demon hunter(Newest class) Death knights(been around since 2008-2009 I believe) Some form of monk.

    Their consequence of dumbing down is a mixture of them either not caring about other classes and focusing on melee or nerfing stuff around.

    Just look at raids where casters get all the trash while melee has easy free cruise with mobility unnerfed and stuns and interrupts for EZ mode.

    GW2 has some similarities, but it stops since every class is essentially a hybrid.

    Necromancers certainly are, since you got melee reaper and core condi and scourge support or tempest which has easy access to heals and melee overloads that deal stun.

    GW2 problem is slightly different because their issue is about having each hybrid variation useful in some way or another. If for instance scourge and reaper are viable for WVW and let's say druid soulbeast or core aren't ranger mains are going to be angry(and rightly so) There does need to be some dps viability for horde and i think ranged bow with that aoe seems likely candidate unless rangers have some other huge aoe I don't know of since I'm not the most experienced ranger player.

    Also, guild wars 2 has other complex mechanical issues such as how much evade is enough evade? how big should the skill cap be between a total noob and the 0.1?

    How do you balance the ceiling and floor so a person who is a newbie isn't turned off by being completely wrecked and can't even land a kill?

    I think the mobility issue is no different than the rogue one is in wow but the difference is, the most mobile tend to have low armor and the more tanky ones tend to be actual tank classes with heavy armor and melee attacks but they got some other upside as pallies do with their bubbles and some of their other stuff or DK with their aoes and chains and aoe stuns.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I dont know If I would take wow balancing seriously.
    roge legit could perma CC you. naked rogue could kill you in CC chain from stealth 0 counterplay.
    shaman could kill you with 1 attack becouse rng auto proc can proc another rng auto proc that can proc another rng auto proc etc etc and each of those proc can proc another weapon bull proc.

  • I don't play WoW but I think that buffing the weak is generally the better option if that's what you're trying to say.

    I also think that nerfs should only be reserved for the extreme IE classes + skill + equipment combinations that are so overpowered that they warrant not taking anything else to fill that role. IE a single side-noder spec being so strong that it makes every other side-noder spec obsolete by comparison. That's powercreep, and that's where nerfs are justified.

    And when they do happen, I feel they should be done in more creative ways than just tweaking down coefficients and increasing CDs. Tradeoffs and actual skill reworks that open up new counterplay are much more interesting imo. It's also less work, because instead of having to tune everything down and inevitably leaving all new outliers for however long, the focus would be bringing existing outliers in line by shifting the power curve to match them.

    We are a species that is prone to loss aversion, so when we see blanket statements like "Buffs in 2020 LUL" a lot of us don't feel very good about it. A perfectly balanced game isn't always fun, and sometimes an over-commitment to balance can even be detrimental to fun which seems to be the case with WoW? Don't play it tho.

    Remove or Split DuoQ, revolution of our time! 😷

  • Shagie.7612Shagie.7612 Member ✭✭

    why link a video of a pre-expansion patch where everything is broken because you have overinflated stats, extra procs from trinkets/legendaries/tier, and are missing things that came from leveling through BFA (azerite, mostly)
    the arcane mage video is absolutely useless and intentionally misleading even though the spec (and all others) is a joke.

    wow is bad and has been forever, bfa is extreme trash, but removing things isn't inherently a bad idea. sometimes things just outright don't work mechanically or are bad for game balance and a class would be better off without it.
    changing things via removal is only a bad idea because no game developers understand why something should or should not exist, especially in the case of blizzard.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2020

    @Shagie.7612 said:
    why link a video of a pre-expansion patch where everything is broken because you have overinflated stats, extra procs from trinkets/legendaries/tier, and are missing things that came from leveling through BFA (azerite, mostly)
    the arcane mage video is absolutely useless and intentionally misleading even though the spec (and all others) is a joke.

    wow is bad and has been forever, BFA is extreme trash, but removing things isn't inherently a bad idea. sometimes things just outright don't work mechanically or are bad for game balance and a class would be better off without it.
    changing things via removal is only a bad idea because no game developers understand why something should or should not exist, especially in the case of blizzard.

    Wow, devs messed up because they kittened with the class in ways that makes both sides unfun.

    They pruned warlock so much, that the complexity of ways you can counter something was removed so now there are actually fewer ways to fight something that might counter you. Before you could take silence to be able to fight paladins.

    Oh, paladins like to use spells? silence them with the pet. Got a prob with melee use howl of terror and conflag, etc, etc.

    They also introduced really kitten ideas like UA stacks which is both unfun when stacked to 1 hit kills and unfun for necro when you can never do enough damage to kill anything because its kittened unless you get a lot of stacks which is impossible because it gets dispelled constantly, and there is no downside to dispelling UA practically.

    Warlocks have an unhealthy mechanic of tanking stuff since no mobility which is bad for the game but if you nerf said sustain, they become free kills to all melee classes and get shredded(this actually has similarity to necros in gw2) In wow its because they stripped away from other tools necros had so they were forced to tank in PVP but would get shredded without the tools needed to tank players, and it would be boring and unfun if they do.

    Remember when wow had resto warlocks? yeah, it was literally destro locks who couldn't do hardly any damage, but they were invincible because they healed themselves and kept themselves alive in PVP and were immortal more or less.

    The thing about wow is, conditions also work different so at times people get mixed up who has what.

    ele might be blamed for guardian having a ton of burns or vice versa, since everyone uses one of these condis, and there is a problem in balancing condis and condi cleanses because people hate dying no matter what it is, but they really hate condis.

    I don't think its really fair to say condis should not be viable and to nerf into the ground.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aktium.9506 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    What happens when you systematically strip away "bloat" which is a fancy term for cutting mechanics, trait synergies, and sometimes... entire abilities

    Most of the truly egregious offenders where this has happened have been especs that were stupidly OP. Nerfing them to the point of effectively removing them from gamemodes like with Scourge and Mirage is more than right. Trying to bring other classes up to the same level of stupidly strong would have been the worst decision ever. Just think back on some of the dumpster fires we've had with both the aforementioned ones as well as some notable like Boonbeast, Deadeye and Holo. The baseline of balance should always be the core builds. If certain especs are grossly overperforming and can't be fixed easily it's better to just kill it off.

    That's pretty weak. What game mode was mirage dominating? 1v1? LoL Yeah, shut it down! It's the only way!

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    I dont know If I would take wow balancing seriously.
    roge legit could perma CC you. naked rogue could kill you in CC chain from stealth 0 counterplay.
    shaman could kill you with 1 attack becouse rng auto proc can proc another rng auto proc that can proc another rng auto proc etc etc and each of those proc can proc another weapon bull proc.

    And those were things balanced fixed more than a decade ago, but because they went back to classic wow and people wanted no changes... well they're back in there, but current wow doesn't have those versions. There's a hell of a lot more one shot skills and cc with no diminishing returns in gw2 than wow...

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs - Thieves
    A skill overpowered? just nerf their dodge, balanced. - Anet
    There's no power creep you just don't recognize more people hitting you - Flat Earther

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    What happens when you systematically strip away "bloat" which is a fancy term for cutting mechanics, trait synergies, and sometimes... entire abilities (Looking at you threads that want to have firebrand tomes removed).

    I won't sit here and spout off doomsday prophecies. Instead, I will link you to threads and videos posted about a game that did exactly that. You may believe that these changes helped to bring about a move balanced landscape, but... I'll just let these people speak for me.

    A legnthy reddit post that goes into detail about how classes feel after repeated rounds of pruning and nerfs.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/car0uh/class_design_is_still_one_of_the_worst_parts_of/

    A very informative video of how Arcane mage plays.
    Note how he casts arcane missle. And then follows that up with an arcane missle. Next he makes the tactical decision to cast arcane missle, but only after first casting arcane-- you get where this is going. `

    A Dev insider post where the devs admit that they may have gone too far when trimming classes down. If you haven't been keeping up with Blizzad's many, many mishaps lately (cough Do you guys not have phones cough Free Hong Kong) You might know that getting Blizzard to admit something went wrong means that something must have gone very wrong. `

    https://www.wowhead.com/news=292386/class-design-too-much-pruning-pvp-gear-from-pve-developer-insights-with-ion-hazz

    But I hear you thinking, with all the nerfs, surely PvP is more balanced... Weeeeellll--

    And I assure you, this is only the tip of the iceburg.


    Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's never right to nerf a class. Sometimes, classes overperform and need to be brought in line. You see this in just about any competetive online game. However, I strongly advise thinking twice when you suggest nerfs that strip away class mechanics. Whether it be nerfing synergies or simplifying mechanics. Changes like these may not bring about the kind of game you're hoping for. `

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    What happens when you systematically strip away "bloat" which is a fancy term for cutting mechanics, trait synergies, and sometimes... entire abilities (Looking at you threads that want to have firebrand tomes removed).

    I won't sit here and spout off doomsday prophecies. Instead, I will link you to threads and videos posted about a game that did exactly that. You may believe that these changes helped to bring about a move balanced landscape, but... I'll just let these people speak for me.

    A legnthy reddit post that goes into detail about how classes feel after repeated rounds of pruning and nerfs.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/car0uh/class_design_is_still_one_of_the_worst_parts_of/

    A very informative video of how Arcane mage plays.
    Note how he casts arcane missle. And then follows that up with an arcane missle. Next he makes the tactical decision to cast arcane missle, but only after first casting arcane-- you get where this is going. `

    A Dev insider post where the devs admit that they may have gone too far when trimming classes down. If you haven't been keeping up with Blizzad's many, many mishaps lately (cough Do you guys not have phones cough Free Hong Kong) You might know that getting Blizzard to admit something went wrong means that something must have gone very wrong. `

    https://www.wowhead.com/news=292386/class-design-too-much-pruning-pvp-gear-from-pve-developer-insights-with-ion-hazz

    But I hear you thinking, with all the nerfs, surely PvP is more balanced... Weeeeellll--

    And I assure you, this is only the tip of the iceburg.

    You were not here when Holismith could effectively 1v4 were you?

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2020

    The issue with their blanket style approach at lowering the damage throughout the game is yes it lowered the over all damage throughout the game but changed nothing with regards to the disparity of power lv's between the classes themselves. Secondly the fact all hp and barrier type skills etc was left the same without considering the drop in power lvs. I get that the team want this to be a power lv base line to start with unfortunately doing a few changes to one class every few weeks, ones being qq'd about won't leave this game in any semblance of balance any time soon.
    I see the community praising the few changes as they came within few weeks but when u look at the substance within those changes it would be over a yr before most classes were touched.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2020

    @Aktium.9506 said:
    If certain especs are grossly overperforming and can't be fixed easily it's better to just kill it off.

    that is the worst possible decision and will kill the game over time. the solution, and it really should be the only solution, is to know what the kitten is going on and fix any problem areas with either tweaks or functionality changes that are in line with reality. goes for both nerfs and buffs.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2020

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Aktium.9506 said:
    If certain especs are grossly overperforming and can't be fixed easily it's better to just kill it off.

    that is the worst possible decision and will kill the game over time. the solution, and it really should be the only solution, is to know what the kitten is going on and fix any problem areas with either tweaks or functionality changes that are in line with reality. goes for both nerfs and buffs.

    What they need to do is overhaul stuff over time

    Mesmers need an overhaul to fix issues regarding their phantoms and illusions necromancers need an overhaul on how some of their traits work and separate the offensive areas.

    Mes also need chronomancer overhaul as well i think and maybe looking at why people complain about mirage evades and blinks.

    So many things that could use looking at rather than flat out nerf, because truth is, nerfing something into the ground just reveals why they might need an overhaul as is.

    Also nerfing it into the ground also just not only cuts out viability of one possible espec, but possibly entire class and leave in obscurity.

    Take necro for example in SPVP and how for some time it was left in limbo, well its not good for any spec to be left in such a state, not ele mesmer ranger certainly not warrior either.

    Wouldn't it be better to make it feel fun for the person playing the class rather than supplement the whines of a possible toxic and unhealthy class and leave it in limbo?

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Extremely strong elite specialisations, simply by being many times better than everything else, did hurt PvP even more though: they effectively removed every other option from PvP because everything that came before the latest expansion was strictly inferior to the point of turning the player that chose to roll with previous builds into dead weight.

    Adding more power on top of more power isn't a solution either.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭

    Seems most of ya'll understand that balancing via dumbing things down isn't a very good solution in the long run... which is pleasing to see. It's interesting to read that each of you has different ideas on how Anet should go about toning things down. It's a shame that they've left these forums so neglected because there could be some good conversations here.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    I dont know If I would take wow balancing seriously.
    roge legit could perma CC you. naked rogue could kill you in CC chain from stealth 0 counterplay.
    shaman could kill you with 1 attack becouse rng auto proc can proc another rng auto proc that can proc another rng auto proc etc etc and each of those proc can proc another weapon bull proc.

    Good times... and by good times I mean this is one of the reasons why I love GW2's take on combat. A player who playes perfectly shouldn't consistently get out dps'd by a mediocre player who gets lucky with random procs. Shaman was bad with this, but frost mage... It was literally a slave to rng. If you got it bad you were stuck spamming your filler for the entire fight.

    @Elmo Benchwarmer.3025 said:
    Extremely strong elite specialisations, simply by being many times better than everything else, did hurt PvP even more though: they effectively removed every other option from PvP because everything that came before the latest expansion was strictly inferior to the point of turning the player that chose to roll with previous builds into dead weight.

    Adding more power on top of more power isn't a solution either.

    Being a lover of core classes myself, I wholeheartedly agree. I'm planning on doing a post soon where I outline nerfs done to elite specs that I liked vs those that were done hastily. While everyone else was complaining about Holo losing toolbelt skills on overheat, I was glad (despite maining holo myself at the time) because it introduced an element to the class that punished careless play. What I didn't like was how the nerf interacted with Photonic Blasting Module in PvE, since you already have the tradeoff of literally killing yourself, but thankfully that's been addressed.

  • Eddbopkins.2630Eddbopkins.2630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2020

    They did this massive nerf to all classes because of the upcoming expansion. They want us to get used to playing these nerfed/weekend classes so when the expansion drops it has a bigger impact on the classes and playstyles.
    They did this before hot and before pof. But this time they did it way in advanced to really help the feel of powercreep when the new expansion drops.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    They did this massive nerf to all classes because of the upcoming expansion. They want us to get used to playing these nerfed/weekend classes so when the expansion drops it has a bigger impact on the classes and playstyles.
    They did this before hot and before pof. But this time they did it way in advanced to really help the feel of powercreep when the new expansion drops.

    I wont buy expac untill they fix hot/pof/core specs. and I wont buy gems propably ever, unless they SOMEHOW impress me.
    so far they made my class garbage, and both pve patches that I tried bugged and I could not progress them.
    If they think they deserve my money they are vert wrong.