Pros and cons of different ranked splits — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Pros and cons of different ranked splits

Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

Solo que
Pros - entirely based on performance of a person, players get rewards based on their own performance, ratings discrepancies between groups and solo quers avoided
Cons- cannot group up with friends, less popular, encouragement to avoid prime time, more que dodging/ manipulating the match maker and more claims(valid or not) of high elo players cheating
Duo
Pros: more accurate ratings for duo groups, more popular, more high skill players per team, chance to learn from skilled players and in general will have more ppl encouraged to play at prime time
Cons: que dodging and match maker manipulation will still be present, not really possible to have by itself since some will be solo- could only be implemented as a separate leaderboard in addition to solo q and will have players with near perfect win rates as we see atm with the mini season
Team que
Pros- encourage high level teams to form, almost all the play will be at prime time, super low match maker manipulation unless 2 high elo teams play each other nonstop
Cons- huge disparity in ratings, lack of individual expectations, won’t really work in low population games where high rating teams will always dodge each other and again like duo not really possible unless you have a separate leaderboard from solo q and some ppl will have insane win rates
Merged solo and duo
Pros- possibility to play with friend and/or have rating based on individual performance, less matchmaker manipulation than solo and more players on at prime time, also there will be a decent variety in ratings lastly it works without separating the leaderboards though some will still want a separated one
Cons- still will have match making manipulation in form of que dodging and off hours queuing, a disparity in rating to a decent extent and there will still be “teams” if players who via discord and guild will basically help each other climb by never quing into each other and duo together all the time for unfair advantage
Limited solo duo merged(plat2+ solo)
Pros: High ranks based on individual performance, some ppl can play with friends, somewhat competitive and somewhat popular
Cons: players below plat2 will still see slight disparity in rating, less popular in prime time than duo q+, still high levels in match maker manipulation for top spots followed by claims of cheating for rank 1-10 spots and lastly THIS WILL FAIL iff the average rating for places like top 10 fall to plat2 elo as the players there will be forced to solo at only a slightly different rating than players slightly under them who will pad their own with duo- forcing many ppl to compete over tiny rating differences, none of whom will get good rating unless they manipulate the match maker
Completely merged 1-5 players
Pros: lots of variety in team comps with plenty of play during prime time, big lack in match maker manipulation, will allow in a wide diversity in play and ratings and might have a decent lfg population or even bring in some more pvers
Cons: HUGE disparity in ratings at the top end, might not be fair without separate ratings and even though it won’t directly cause it but solo Qing will almost assuredly disappear

This is a basic list of pro and cons. When you take into account that team queue rating disparity will be so immense and probably destroy solo q population, also that ats are a thing now, I think it’s fair to cross that off the list. So it seems fair atm to choose the fairest one as either a solo or duo q merged or only format. Now with ratings as they are a plat 2+ restricted solo q system will 100% fail so let’s look at solo q only- it will 100% be based on individual and that’s great, but prime time Qing will be replaced will offhour matchmaking manipulation and the games popularity will plummet. So let’s look at duo only- just not exactly possible as it will stop average ppl from playing, but the ppl who do will play seriously and possibly during prime time, so not bad but represents too few of ppl and will kill popularity. So we are stuck with solo duo merged, this will definitely represent lots of ppl playing at all times of day and still represent individual performance but again duos will in 75% of cases dominate top spots so maybe we could try to split the leaderboards but again this will split the population and hurt players chances to measure their performance as the que is merged but with separate leaderboards. Only solution to that would be have 1 leaderboard for both or to split solo and duo and have 2 leaderboards though that would force some players to have to play more in general than they already do which is generally not liked by the average casual and hence might hurt population.
In conclusion, as much as I’d like to either have a leaderboard measured only on my own performance(solo q) that would be rife in MM and would hurt game popularity or to have a full team que this just wouldn’t measure individual performance or help popularity either. So things rn seem to be about as good as it can get and even if I wanted the leaderboard to show if someone duos or not- that would be unrealistic and probably wouldn’t increase popularity of pvp in general. Feel free to leave your own opinion or suggestions of a way to improve the current system that would solve the cons listed above and/or would satisfy everyone.

Comments

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2020

    I think solo q is a huge fail. conquest isn't designed for a bunch of random single players, its designed for a team that syncs builds and works together. on the other end, team q is also a fail since there is such a huge skill gap between the few top teams and everyone else. low population forces top teams to play vs lower ranked teams, resulting in stomps which no one enjoys and so it dies.

    so I think a middle ground would be worth a shot. what about a system that only accepts parties of 2 or 3? force people to team up, but have enough variety in each team to prevent constant snowballing matches. imo waiting 5+ mins for a match (that is assumedly of better quality) is a hell of a lot better then wasting 15 mins in a bad one.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    I think solo q is a huge fail. conquest isn't designed for a bunch of random single players, its designed for a team that syncs builds and works together. on the other end, team q is also a fail since there is such a huge skill gap between the few top teams and everyone else. low population forces top teams to play vs lower ranked teams, resulting in stomps which no one enjoys and so it dies.

    so I think a middle ground would be worth a shot. what about a system that only accepts parties of 2 or 3? force people to team up, but have enough variety in each team to prevent constant snowballing matches. imo waiting 5+ mins for a match (that is assumedly of better quality) is a hell of a lot better then wasting 15 mins in a bad one.

    I kind of addressed that as duo q only section. It would be decent but forcing players to team up means eliminating solo q which will only starve the population as being able to que as 1 is fundamental. But it might work if they seperate solo q and team q with separate leader boards and ratin disparity wouldn’t be as bad as full team que, I also pointed out separate leaderboards are unrealistic but it’s totally possible so not bad but it won’t make the situation better than it is rn imo, though feel free to have a different one

  • @Dantheman.3589 said:
    Solo que
    Cons- cannot group up with friends, less popular, encouragement to avoid prime time, more que dodging/ manipulating the match maker and more claims(valid or not) of high elo players cheating

    Would definitely say the whole "more wintrading with SoloQ" argument is very misleading. Yes; it's true that some people stooped so low as to wintrade, but at least it was obvious and harder to pull off than metagaming, which is borderline match manipulation with a far greater impact on ranked in general.

    You can see it in the winrates. It's generally the same people that did well and won top place during SoloQ-only, the only difference being was back then they had to work for a 50-60% winrate like all the rest of us, and now; it's still them at the top, they just win 80, 90, or even 100% of their games played.

    They'll say that SoloQ was more manipulable simply because they don't like SoloQ, even though it's extremely difficult to get someone to throw in exchange for gold with pretty much random, and more skill-based matchmaking. It's also much easier to actually identify match manipulation and punish it when the only way they can do it is by wintrading.
    And therein lies the reason certain top players love to use it as a scapegoat. "Because match manipulation can be more easily identified and actually punished in SoloQ, SoloQ is clearly where all the match manipulation happens. Now if you'll excuse me, i'm off to win nearly every single one of my games with my Duo."

    That's not to say that these pros/cons aren't accurate, I think they are. I just don't agree with that particular one. Don't think it's true.
    If you want a real con, obviously you've got queue-dodging(which is really a flaw with GW2's quantity over quality matchmaking, and not any particular queue-style.)

    I'd say a very real con and downside to SoloQ in split-queue scenario is toxicity compared to the other options. People harassing their teams, sitting in spawn AFK, that sort.
    In order to make it work, AFKers would need much harsher punishments, and the worst type of players; the shameless pip-farmers, would need to go bye-bye. No more handing out pips just because they were there, they need to actually put in work to get them.

    Remove or Split DuoQ, revolution of our time! 😷

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2020

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    Solo que
    Cons- cannot group up with friends, less popular, encouragement to avoid prime time, more que dodging/ manipulating the match maker and more claims(valid or not) of high elo players cheating

    Would definitely say the whole "more wintrading with SoloQ" argument is very misleading. Yes; it's true that some people stooped so low as to wintrade, but at least it was obvious and harder to pull off than metagaming, which is borderline match manipulation with a far greater impact on ranked in general.

    You can see it in the winrates. It's generally the same people that did well and won top place during SoloQ-only, the only difference being was back then they had to work for a 50-60% winrate like all the rest of us, and now; it's still them at the top, they just win 80, 90, or even 100% of their games played.

    They'll say that SoloQ was more manipulable simply because they don't like SoloQ, even though it's extremely difficult to get someone to throw in exchange for gold with pretty much random, and more skill-based matchmaking. It's also much easier to actually identify match manipulation and punish it when the only way they can do it is by wintrading.
    And therein lies the reason certain top players love to use it as a scapegoat. "Because match manipulation can be more easily identified and actually punished in SoloQ, SoloQ is clearly where all the match manipulation happens. Now if you'll excuse me, i'm off to win nearly every single one of my games with my Duo."

    That's not to say that these pros/cons aren't accurate, I think they are. I just don't agree with that particular one. Don't think it's true.
    If you want a real con, obviously you've got queue-dodging(which is really a flaw with GW2's quantity over quality matchmaking, and not any particular queue-style.)

    I'd say a very real con and downside to SoloQ in split-queue scenario is toxicity compared to the other options. People harassing their teams, sitting in spawn AFK, that sort.
    In order to make it work, AFKers would need much harsher punishments, and the worst type of players; the shameless pip-farmers, would need to go bye-bye. No more handing out pips just because they were there, they need to actually put in work to get them.

    I agree that is misleading. What I said from what I recall was match making manipulation- which is not the same as match manipulation. Solo is definitely full of playing trying to stretch the rule of proper match making by nonstop queue sniping, playing in off hours etc all to avoid other solo queuers to boost there rating the what like 50 points that gets them top 25 as compared to top 75.
    This is pretty evident once you see all streamers stop streaming because no one continues to q normally and it happens to most and prime time all of a sudden disappears. This is just kind of evident based off 1.) logic 2.) what happened in the past of this game and others.
    Also once this happens and players stop seeing top players stream they also start to make more threads accusing players cheating when the reality is that they just are match making for a little more elo- not “match manipulating” match making, bending the rules to get slightly better match making hence somehow getting that 1 plat3- legend rating while every other player is only pla2
    Edit: I don’t think that increased toxicity is a problem. Yes team que is slightly more likely to be friends but other teams maybe toxic to each other, also toxicity even in solo q is entirely a persons choice and you can report or block them, yes they might afk but that’s not that common and isn’t a factual problem of solo q since it’s equally likely someone will afk anyways team queue or not...

  • Avatar.3568Avatar.3568 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2020

    What about 1-3 matchmaking, you can q with 1 more friend, maybe get a duo in your team too, it would bring more teamplay but still not destroying solo or duoq

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Avatar.3568 said:
    What about 1-3 matchmaking, you can q with 1 more friend, maybe get a duo in your team too, it would bring more teamplay but still not destroying solo or duoq

    It wouldn’t directly destroy solo but tbh it’s excessive as there is no team comp that will ever really require 3 set roles to function as say necro+fb, sidenode+roamer or roamer+Roamer. So all it will do is allow one team to have an excessively strong comp while the other will almost never be able to win causing rating similar to what we see this mini season. It could also be broken with 3 mirror classes like 3 necros one on each node causing matches to 1.) take too long 2.) have 0% chance of being fair

  • @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I agree that is misleading. What I said from what I recall was match making manipulation- which is not the same as match manipulation. Solo is definitely full of playing trying to stretch the rule of proper match making by nonstop queue sniping, playing in off hours etc all to avoid other solo queuers to boost there rating the what like 50 points that gets them top 25 as compared to top 75.
    This is pretty evident once you see all streamers stop streaming because no one continues to q normally and it happens to most and prime time all of a sudden disappears. This is just kind of evident based off 1.) logic 2.) what happened in the past of this game and others.
    Also once this happens and players stop seeing top players stream they also start to make more threads accusing players cheating when the reality is that they just are match making for a little more elo- not “match manipulating” match making, bending the rules to get slightly better match making hence somehow getting that 1 plat3- legend rating while every other player is only pla2

    I mean, I can appreciate you trying to look at it logically and such like that.

    I would think the exact opposite to be true based on said logic though. I think that SoloQ makes it infinitely harder to snipe people and DuoQ makes it substantially more easy. Through the power of mathematics(Which I failed, but this is pretty simple math that I even I can understand) and fractions/probability, I have deduced that a DuoQ automatically gives a potential queue/stream sniper increased chance to snipe the Streamer/players they're after. The sniper's chance of ending up on the enemy team is increased by 2/5(That's 40% B) ) Because guaranteeing two people to the same team inherently makes the matchmaking more tractable, and that's where the 2/5ths comes from.

    The chance is increased further if a DuoQ is sniping another DuoQ, because the matchmaking tries. Granted; it usually fails, but it tries to find an even average rating between teams, and in most cases 2 DuoQ's versus an entire team of SoloQs is rare, but does happen sometimes.

    In SoloQ it's down to 1/5(20%) and it's only really easy to snipe people of the same rating, which would in theory be a fair fight anyway. The only earthly reason I can see someone sniping for a fair fight, and not a straight advantage over the other person is for attention. Which brings me back to this...

    Edit: I don’t think that increased toxicity is a problem. Yes team que is slightly more likely to be friends but other teams maybe toxic to each other, also toxicity even in solo q is entirely a persons choice and you can report or block them, yes they might afk but that’s not that common and isn’t a factual problem of solo q since it’s equally likely someone will afk anyways team queue or not...

    You are right, it isn't fact, but just in general people seem to think SoloQ is more toxic.

    I agree with that notion really, because someone you trust and you're in direct communication with seems far less likely to AFK than a complete stranger. Which still sounds like a SoloQ problem; at least to me, it's your list though, you do you.

    Remove or Split DuoQ, revolution of our time! 😷

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I agree that is misleading. What I said from what I recall was match making manipulation- which is not the same as match manipulation. Solo is definitely full of playing trying to stretch the rule of proper match making by nonstop queue sniping, playing in off hours etc all to avoid other solo queuers to boost there rating the what like 50 points that gets them top 25 as compared to top 75.
    This is pretty evident once you see all streamers stop streaming because no one continues to q normally and it happens to most and prime time all of a sudden disappears. This is just kind of evident based off 1.) logic 2.) what happened in the past of this game and others.
    Also once this happens and players stop seeing top players stream they also start to make more threads accusing players cheating when the reality is that they just are match making for a little more elo- not “match manipulating” match making, bending the rules to get slightly better match making hence somehow getting that 1 plat3- legend rating while every other player is only pla2

    I mean, I can appreciate you trying to look at it logically and such like that.

    I would think the exact opposite to be true based on said logic though. I think that SoloQ makes it infinitely harder to snipe people and DuoQ makes it substantially more easy. Through the power of mathematics(Which I failed, but this is pretty simple math that I even I can understand) and fractions/probability, I have deduced that a DuoQ automatically gives a potential queue/stream sniper increased chance to snipe the Streamer/players they're after. The sniper's chance of ending up on the enemy team is increased by 2/5(That's 40% B) ) Because guaranteeing two people to the same team inherently makes the matchmaking more tractable, and that's where the 2/5ths comes from.

    The chance is increased further if a DuoQ is sniping another DuoQ, because the matchmaking tries. Granted; it usually fails, but it tries to find an even average rating between teams, and in most cases 2 DuoQ's versus an entire team of SoloQs is rare, but does happen sometimes.

    In SoloQ it's down to 1/5(20%) and it's only really easy to snipe people of the same rating, which would in theory be a fair fight anyway. The only earthly reason I can see someone sniping for a fair fight, and not a straight advantage over the other person is for attention. Which brings me back to this...

    Edit: I don’t think that increased toxicity is a problem. Yes team que is slightly more likely to be friends but other teams maybe toxic to each other, also toxicity even in solo q is entirely a persons choice and you can report or block them, yes they might afk but that’s not that common and isn’t a factual problem of solo q since it’s equally likely someone will afk anyways team queue or not...

    You are right, it isn't fact, but just in general people seem to think SoloQ is more toxic.

    I agree with that notion really, because someone you trust and you're in direct communication with seems far less likely to AFK than a complete stranger. Which still sounds like a SoloQ problem; at least to me, it's your list though, you do you.

    Q-sniping does seem to persist with duo and I’m pretty sure I list these type of things will persist with duo, but let’s look at what happened with the past basically “solo season”. When it first came out players got to good ratings still because previous season they were like legend 2-3 w.e and then these ppl(ex steelrage) would stream, what those solo matches were like was literally 10 legendish rated players q-sniping for legend matches and the result like 5-7 legend players in a match, but often the other players were not and even sometimes all legend players on one side. This seems not bad but these players had to do that and ppls ratings were good for abit, just look how vaanns was like legend 2 for rank 1, though he was still Qsniping other ppl in legend, which isn’t cheating but it’s an activity listed above. So for first season or 2 things seemed great, but obviously artificially so because when these streams and w.e stopped everyone in top tens rating fell to like plat2, which I explained would crash the system. Then even more of this match making manipulation occurred as it’s simple to just q a few in off hours.
    But the difference between solo and duos not that duo won’t have ppl bending rules but that at least the game is sustainable. In both yeah it happens but in solo it failed becuz of this that’s why duo+solo seems better to me at least on this point.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The easier solution tbh would be to add to the algorithm so it limits duo's to one per team, and so a duo will always face a duo. This way alot of the arguments fall away, and shouldn't affect queue time drastically while removing the necessity of more leaderboards.

  • Thorstienn.1642Thorstienn.1642 Member ✭✭✭

    Just make 2 things invisible:
    1. The leaderboard until the end of the season. Maybe just show your individual rank so you can have a "feel" for your standing.
    2. Dont show that friends, guildies, etc are IN a match. Display there location as just where they queued in from.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Again somethings just aren’t realistic, anet could try and do some fancy stuff to prevent match making manipulation or just bad match making but this would complicate the game in every way shape or form and would just make weird matches anyways.