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I don't like this game of play what wasn't nerfed yet.

Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

Factually speaking, you can gather an average of any builds that have success and they would be using something that the patch completely ignored in terms of what it was supposed to do. This should be a game of it's own because it's absolutely disgusting how uneven and unfair it is for certain profession options, while you have other things that have been nerfed but don't function accordingly, we had a whole entire mini season to test this and right now the Conquest season already kicked in without any of the problematic addressed, how is Anet gonna address those problems? Not even post an acknowledgement about it? Was there even one? The consistency of the patches looked good first hand but it pretty much stopped there as people shifted to the next untouched broken elements.

Then you have the "stay away from that cause they never cared about it" section. How do you handle traits that even on paper don't make sense? Why are you letting them gather dust when what they need so obvious that you get a migraine realizing it should have been like that in the first place.

God this season is going to be extremely unfun with how gloomy 2v2 turned out in terms of balance, showing the obvious problems that have been forever took for granted and never address, really hard to keep hope on this where I can't find any info on the intentions Anet have in the nearest future. Should be expect a patch this tuesday, I hope I am wrong and that things are going to take a better turn today.

Comments

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Maybe an average build is but there are some huge exceptions I’ll just point out how PW got huge nerfs and is still decent in fact pretty much great as a thief build, dp builds in general got good nerfs to and some variants are still great. Not just thief, from what I understand war, engi, ele lots of classes you would think highly affected by cc nerfs dps and sustain nerfs are still doing great

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    Maybe an average build is but there are some huge exceptions I’ll just point out how PW got huge nerfs and is still decent in fact pretty much great as a thief build, dp builds in general got good nerfs to and some variants are still great. Not just thief, from what I understand war, engi, ele lots of classes you would think highly affected by cc nerfs dps and sustain nerfs are still doing great

    Alot of the stuff was tickled and not nerfed.
    Necro and guard ate almost no nerfs whatsoever, kitten like maul after double nerf is still nerfed less then most things.
    They should just add global -30% dmg taken instead of going skill by skill becouse its impossible to touch everything.
    Removal of CC removal and evasion made escaping CC much harder.
    If I play mirage against warrior my CC remove got CD increases, I lost a dodge, Im forced out of vigor ( chaos line ) and my scepter 2 and axe 3 got increased cooldowns.
    Bottom line is I can dodge WAAAAY the kitten less, and remove CC less often. But there is same ammout of CC on warrior for example. And if they take hammer then kitten me im not gonna move.
    like just look at it.
    daze/stun from dagger.
    stun from shield 4
    stun from hammer f1.
    daze from F2
    stun from F1 if reset by f2
    knockdown from bull
    aids stun spam from rampage
    backbreaker Knockdown
    staggering knockback
    thats potential 9 Hard CC skills, who the kitten can avoid all dis, im not saying its op or whatever becouse I didnt play against it but its the matter of principle.
    evade/stab/cc remov got dunked and cc remained.

    InTeRRuPt tHeIr CC! We are reaching GW1 levels of interrupt/CC-spam lately, and in that game this unironically was a thing.

    I remember reading in 2011/12 that they don't want CC overloaded builds in GW2, because they learned it from GW1 how stunlocking targets untill they die is a terrible design.

    What builds could stun lock you until you die in GW1? The one that could remotely do that was moebius strike + horns of the ox assassin which you only needed to block one chain skill to mess it all and that was in low tier pvp.

    The degenerate

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2020

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    Maybe an average build is but there are some huge exceptions I’ll just point out how PW got huge nerfs and is still decent in fact pretty much great as a thief build, dp builds in general got good nerfs to and some variants are still great. Not just thief, from what I understand war, engi, ele lots of classes you would think highly affected by cc nerfs dps and sustain nerfs are still doing great

    Alot of the stuff was tickled and not nerfed.
    Necro and guard ate almost no nerfs whatsoever, kitten like maul after double nerf is still nerfed less then most things.
    They should just add global -30% dmg taken instead of going skill by skill becouse its impossible to touch everything.
    Removal of CC removal and evasion made escaping CC much harder.
    If I play mirage against warrior my CC remove got CD increases, I lost a dodge, Im forced out of vigor ( chaos line ) and my scepter 2 and axe 3 got increased cooldowns.
    Bottom line is I can dodge WAAAAY the kitten less, and remove CC less often. But there is same ammout of CC on warrior for example. And if they take hammer then kitten me im not gonna move.
    like just look at it.
    daze/stun from dagger.
    stun from shield 4
    stun from hammer f1.
    daze from F2
    stun from F1 if reset by f2
    knockdown from bull
    aids stun spam from rampage
    backbreaker Knockdown
    staggering knockback
    thats potential 9 Hard CC skills, who the kitten can avoid all dis, im not saying its op or whatever becouse I didnt play against it but its the matter of principle.
    evade/stab/cc remov got dunked and cc remained.

    InTeRRuPt tHeIr CC! We are reaching GW1 levels of interrupt/CC-spam lately, and in that game this unironically was a thing.

    I remember reading in 2011/12 that they don't want CC overloaded builds in GW2, because they learned it from GW1 how stunlocking targets untill they die is a terrible design.

    What builds could stun lock you until you die in GW1? The one that could remotely do that was moebius strike + horns of the ox assassin which you only needed to block one chain skill to mess it all and that was in low tier pvp.

    Any DH or Backbreaker A/W or W/A variant. Once the target gets hit by the first attack, only Disciplined Stance or Shield Bash could have saved them(and these skills were pretty much only run by monks, or required the target to be on their defensive weaponset before eating the first hit). While this combo was the worst offender, any class with a knockdown could combo ridiculous things togheter, like my Rt/A lifesteal meme build that only did armor ignoring and lifesteal damage.
    All you had to do to "stunlock" someone is knocking them down again just as they were standing up. GW1 had no stunbreaks, only some instant cast stances/skills that could maybe defend you from the incoming spike once you've been incapacitated. GW1 also had no stealth whatsoever, so anticipating incoming spikes was easier, but still.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Naa, plenty of stuff could save you, anything anti-melee, anti-kd, a rupt or even a monk heal or prot.
    Like I said that only worked on low pvp as FA, JQ, AB or if caught splitting alone.
    Plus it isn't really a stun lock, that build has one kd.

    The only build that had something akin to stun lock was the one that I said above, and hammer war if played right.

    The degenerate

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Naa, plenty of stuff could save you, anything anti-melee, anti-kd, a rupt or even a monk heal or prot.
    Like I said that only worked on low pvp as FA, JQ, AB or if caught splitting alone.
    Plus it isn't really a stun lock, that build has one kd.

    The only build that had something akin to stun lock was the one that I said above, and hammer war if played right.

    Roll A/W, slot in Dash somewhere in the build, so noone can melee you unless you want to. Stack adrenaline on spear/shield set, engage on hammer: DH(the elite knockdown), use flail(attack speed boosting stance) smash escape to cancer the aftercast, setswap to dagger, 1 offhand, 1 duel attack, smash escape again to cancel aftercast, swap to hammer, hammerbash(or DH if you lucked in with the dual attack proc), smash esacpe again, swap to dagger, 1 offhand, 1 duel attack. If you synch up with your mesmer who diversion-ed or shame-ed the enemy monks, you got a kill. ALONE. IN 8V8.
    Also there were countless variations to this. But I don't think this interests GW2 only players, my point is, stunlocking shouldn't be possible on your own, or if it is, you shouldn't be able to do insane amounts of damage while completely disabling the enemy. It doesn't matter if the CC skill in itself doesn't do damage, if you can follow it up with a oneshot.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Naa, plenty of stuff could save you, anything anti-melee, anti-kd, a rupt or even a monk heal or prot.
    Like I said that only worked on low pvp as FA, JQ, AB or if caught splitting alone.
    Plus it isn't really a stun lock, that build has one kd.

    The only build that had something akin to stun lock was the one that I said above, and hammer war if played right.

    Roll A/W, slot in Dash somewhere in the build, so noone can melee you unless you want to. Stack adrenaline on spear/shield set, engage on hammer: DH(the elite knockdown), use flail(attack speed boosting stance) smash escape to cancer the aftercast, setswap to dagger, 1 offhand, 1 duel attack, smash escape again to cancel aftercast, swap to hammer, hammerbash(or DH if you lucked in with the dual attack proc), smash esacpe again, swap to dagger, 1 offhand, 1 duel attack. If you synch up with your mesmer who diversion-ed or shame-ed the enemy monks, you got a kill. ALONE. IN 8V8.
    Also there were countless variations to this. But I don't think this interests GW2 only players, my point is, stunlocking shouldn't be possible on your own, or if it is, you shouldn't be able to do insane amounts of damage while completely disabling the enemy. It doesn't matter if the CC skill in itself doesn't do damage, if you can follow it up with a oneshot.

    I know how to play backbreaker.
    That example that you talked about might work now that the entire teams are heroes/henchies, with human players it wouldn't work, thats why you needed to coordinate a spike and kill someone in half a second and not solo/duo someone.

    My point is there wasn't such a thing as stun lock on GW1 High pvp since it was teambased.
    Gw2 on the other hand I agree there is, this game is mostly a single player game in a multiplayer setting.

    The degenerate

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2020

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Factually speaking, you can gather an average of any builds that have success and they would be using something that the patch completely ignored in terms of what it was supposed to do. This should be a game of it's own because it's absolutely disgusting how uneven and unfair it is for certain profession options, while you have other things that have been nerfed but don't function accordingly, we had a whole entire mini season to test this and right now the Conquest season already kicked in without any of the problematic addressed, how is Anet gonna address those problems? Not even post an acknowledgement about it? Was there even one? The consistency of the patches looked good first hand but it pretty much stopped there as people shifted to the next untouched broken elements.

    Then you have the "stay away from that cause they never cared about it" section. How do you handle traits that even on paper don't make sense? Why are you letting them gather dust when what they need so obvious that you get a migraine realizing it should have been like that in the first place.

    God this season is going to be extremely unfun with how gloomy 2v2 turned out in terms of balance, showing the obvious problems that have been forever took for granted and never address, really hard to keep hope on this where I can't find any info on the intentions Anet have in the nearest future. Should be expect a patch this tuesday, I hope I am wrong and that things are going to take a better turn today.

    While I understand your sentiment, there's really nothing that can be done about this apart from wait it out and see what happens.

    The gloominess is a result of a large number of people that want to win more than they want to accept that builds should not be completely mechanically insulated against damage or counter (which is the default pvp mentality). For a lot of people that have played pvp nonstop, having builds and comps that players realistically cannot do anything about is the norm, so they will continue to gravitate toward whatever gets them there as long as its available.

    There are still some builds that allow people to cheese wins, that dodged balancing. Anet devs already acknowledged that this would be an ongoing process, and there's thousands of skills to sift through, and exponentially more combinations. They started with an absolute mess of coefficients, to boot.
    The 2v2 season should have given them good data on what people tend to play when they want to win 2v2 scenarios. Those metrics will probably be used for further balancing.

    Let them work on it. They've had a pretty good patch cadence so far, and right now things might be slow due to viral concerns. As for people jumping onto another cheese bandwagon, that has been happening and will continue to happen. It's not a problem that's going to get fully fixed in a month.

    @Kickpuncher.8109 said:
    ANET doesnt play PVP.

    Even playing pvp on every class isn't an adequate predictor of what overpowered combination people will use to secure wins if it works. As long as it isn't left unbalanced for long periods of time once it is discovered, mechanics surfacing that overperform are to be expected.

    They absolutely should find themselves on the business end of some of these builds occasionally though.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2020

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Factually speaking, you can gather an average of any builds that have success and they would be using something that the patch completely ignored in terms of what it was supposed to do. This should be a game of it's own because it's absolutely disgusting how uneven and unfair it is for certain profession options, while you have other things that have been nerfed but don't function accordingly, we had a whole entire mini season to test this and right now the Conquest season already kicked in without any of the problematic addressed, how is Anet gonna address those problems? Not even post an acknowledgement about it? Was there even one? The consistency of the patches looked good first hand but it pretty much stopped there as people shifted to the next untouched broken elements.

    Then you have the "stay away from that cause they never cared about it" section. How do you handle traits that even on paper don't make sense? Why are you letting them gather dust when what they need so obvious that you get a migraine realizing it should have been like that in the first place.

    God this season is going to be extremely unfun with how gloomy 2v2 turned out in terms of balance, showing the obvious problems that have been forever took for granted and never address, really hard to keep hope on this where I can't find any info on the intentions Anet have in the nearest future. Should be expect a patch this tuesday, I hope I am wrong and that things are going to take a better turn today.

    Yes and only a few people on this forum actually had the foresight to see this as a consequence of the balance changes.

    Even a blanket nerf of 30% on every skill like @Leonidrex.5649 says, still wouldn’t avoid this behavior, because power damage, condo damage and sustain are in an ever-present, interlocking trinity. Nerf one thing, and the others become stronger, nerf them all and we are back to square one.

    This all stems from the most BASIC and fundamental meaning of what balance actually means....which I’ve said many times before, implies that in order for all things to be balanced, they must all be completely equal in every way, which means that balance will always converge to a single skill....the stick. At that point it’s no longer gw2, but stickwars2 where everyone has the same skills and the same traits just with different names.

    There is another way to balance the game but it is a complete 180 degrees in thinking...and rather closely resembles balance that NATURE does in real life:

    Diversity.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/91924/the-importance-of-build-diversity-and-why-its-more-important-than-balance/p1

    You can look deeper into the discussion about it there. Not exactly easy to follow since at the time, the initial hypothesis was vague, but towards the end we flesh out all the details.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2020

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 I can agree with the "back to square one" to an extend. The only thing that never changes is the health pool which is a good thing to base a lot of the hypothesizes around.

    Some things are in a definitive need of rework/checkup because of their already underpowered/badly designed by nature, while things that have got broken by a specific patch really should have their functions fixed so we can have more on the table instead of leaving the option dead over the years.

    Things that are okay, be okay, they can overperform in the good way which is fine, but in a lot of cases it's too good. Not because of their overblown design but some specific attribute that lacks a certain consequence to it.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684
    I know that blanked -30% nerf would not be perfect. But it would be MUCH better then was implemented. It would also take WAAAY less developement time.
    The time they took to look through every single skill they could devote to futher balance AFTER the 30% was implemented.
    Right now we are at the stage where they STILL have to keep going back and nerfing things that were not nerfed.
    I watched ajaxx stream and engi was hitting him with mortar autos for 2k each.
    I bet it wasnt even nerfed.
    Maybe nerfing it by 30% would be too hash but now they have to go through all this overlooked skills and making rounds and rounds and rounds.
    And how long ago was the patch? is there any progress being made?
    After the release they got JOKE of a nerf to necro and guard, joke of a ner to Lrod.
    All they did was finally nerf maul, remove stun from F3 from mesmer and fixed weaver perma invuln bug.
    They spent ALOT of time doing nothing.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    we get perfect 2 vs 2
    Now have very good start. You have change try new build and new classes. Be happy or take break.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    Maybe an average build is but there are some huge exceptions I’ll just point out how PW got huge nerfs and is still decent in fact pretty much great as a thief build, dp builds in general got good nerfs to and some variants are still great. Not just thief, from what I understand war, engi, ele lots of classes you would think highly affected by cc nerfs dps and sustain nerfs are still doing great

    Alot of the stuff was tickled and not nerfed.
    Necro and guard ate almost no nerfs whatsoever, kitten like maul after double nerf is still nerfed less then most things.
    They should just add global -30% dmg taken instead of going skill by skill becouse its impossible to touch everything.
    Removal of CC removal and evasion made escaping CC much harder.
    If I play mirage against warrior my CC remove got CD increases, I lost a dodge, Im forced out of vigor ( chaos line ) and my scepter 2 and axe 3 got increased cooldowns.
    Bottom line is I can dodge WAAAAY the kitten less, and remove CC less often. But there is same ammout of CC on warrior for example. And if they take hammer then kitten me im not gonna move.
    like just look at it.
    daze/stun from dagger.
    stun from shield 4
    stun from hammer f1.
    daze from F2
    stun from F1 if reset by f2
    knockdown from bull
    aids stun spam from rampage
    backbreaker Knockdown
    staggering knockback
    thats potential 9 Hard CC skills, who the kitten can avoid all dis, im not saying its op or whatever becouse I didnt play against it but its the matter of principle.
    evade/stab/cc remov got dunked and cc remained.

    This pretty much sums up one of the biggest problems with the current meta. You can't just nerf all of the defenses against CC while leave all of the sources intact! Rather than making it a skill game where proper timing is rewarded, you can properly time everything and still never have enough defenses to handle the endless onslaught of CC.
    Of course, players realize this and capitalize on it to win, so the prevalence of CC increases even further. I imagine stun spam isn't enjoyable for most players. I know I am not a particular fan of it, though overall I enjoyed PvP prior to the balance patch and I enjoy it more or less just as much now.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:

    we get perfect 2 vs 2
    Now have very good start. You have change try new build and new classes. Be happy or take break.

    I've pretty much tried everything possible on Revenant and the problem doesn't lie in the balance of it, but the bugs. Broken traits and broken skills that don't work like they should. Revenant has actually more builds than most other professions right now so I don't have a lack of diversity at all. Just problems that lie in the situation.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2020

    @Shao.7236 said:
    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 I can agree with the "back to square one" to an extend. The only thing that never changes is the health pool which is a good thing to base a lot of the hypothesizes around.

    Some things are in a definitive need of rework/checkup because of their already underpowered/badly designed by nature, while things that have got broken by a specific patch really should have their functions fixed so we can have more on the table instead of leaving the option dead over the years.

    Things that are okay, be okay, they can overperform in the good way which is fine, but in a lot of cases it's too good. Not because of their overblown design but some specific attribute that lacks a certain consequence to it.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684
    I know that blanked -30% nerf would not be perfect. But it would be MUCH better then was implemented. It would also take WAAAY less developement time.
    The time they took to look through every single skill they could devote to futher balance AFTER the 30% was implemented.
    Right now we are at the stage where they STILL have to keep going back and nerfing things that were not nerfed.
    I watched ajaxx stream and engi was hitting him with mortar autos for 2k each.
    I bet it wasnt even nerfed.
    Maybe nerfing it by 30% would be too hash but now they have to go through all this overlooked skills and making rounds and rounds and rounds.
    And how long ago was the patch? is there any progress being made?
    After the release they got JOKE of a nerf to necro and guard, joke of a ner to Lrod.
    All they did was finally nerf maul, remove stun from F3 from mesmer and fixed weaver perma invuln bug.
    They spent ALOT of time doing nothing.

    Right, The health pool remaining the same is the very premise for reducing TTK...which is okay, but even the health pool is tied to this trinity, and even then people complain about the health pool and downstate differences between classes and want that standardized too, so is it really the last bastion of hope for true balance? In my opinion it isn’t, but that is a fundamental part of the game and as you can tell it’s a rabbit hole...how deep do we have to go?

    It goes so deep until we hit stick wars.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    I've pretty much tried everything possible on Revenant and the problem doesn't lie in the balance of it, but the bugs.

    This is not problem. This is gift. Gift to try another class. Or rethink current. And rethink again. The one of way make change - broke something or broke all. This is very cool. I have all classes, and after rebalance always try find more overpowered class and play.

    Broken traits and broken skills that don't work like they should.

    And why you don't feel that this is great ??? At all I have idea random disable one of 3 trait in each column in each class each day.

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    how deep do we have to go?

    There is only one issue - some people don't understand what it mean "rebalance".
    They think what this is way to find some "balance". Oh, this absolutely not the main target. And no one want make balance.
    Target is break, give some fresh breath, broke or overpowered something, make wind of change, so some "ou, what it it is??? how???"
    To understand this you should play more and more years in perfect game - GuildWars2

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    I've pretty much tried everything possible on Revenant and the problem doesn't lie in the balance of it, but the bugs.

    This is not problem. This is gift. Gift to try another class. Or rethink current. And rethink again. The one of way make change - broke something or broke all. This is very cool. I have all classes, and after rebalance always try find more overpowered class and play.

    Broken traits and broken skills that don't work like they should.

    And why you don't feel that this is great ??? At all I have idea random disable one of 3 trait in each column in each class each day.

    You don't get it, things don't work like they should. I can't rethink when I said I already have done pretty much everything and can't do certain things because the game is bugged. I want to play differently, can't do it. The game has bugs.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 Surprised? I am not. Once I saw the rework and the amount of tardiness in leaving “to be fixed later” all over the place, it was clear how and things will turn out. It will take 8-12 month to get things to a stable level. With the current balance team we will never get more than a handful of meta builds.

    This is why you do not do hard reset if you don’t have the capacity and the competence to release a complete product.

  • Zagerus.8675Zagerus.8675 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Factually speaking, you can gather an average of any builds that have success and they would be using something that the patch completely ignored in terms of what it was supposed to do. This should be a game of it's own because it's absolutely disgusting how uneven and unfair it is for certain profession options, while you have other things that have been nerfed but don't function accordingly, we had a whole entire mini season to test this and right now the Conquest season already kicked in without any of the problematic addressed, how is Anet gonna address those problems? Not even post an acknowledgement about it? Was there even one? The consistency of the patches looked good first hand but it pretty much stopped there as people shifted to the next untouched broken elements.

    Then you have the "stay away from that cause they never cared about it" section. How do you handle traits that even on paper don't make sense? Why are you letting them gather dust when what they need so obvious that you get a migraine realizing it should have been like that in the first place.

    God this season is going to be extremely unfun with how gloomy 2v2 turned out in terms of balance, showing the obvious problems that have been forever took for granted and never address, really hard to keep hope on this where I can't find any info on the intentions Anet have in the nearest future. Should be expect a patch this tuesday, I hope I am wrong and that things are going to take a better turn today.

    You are exactly right. The things that are thriving right now are things that were relatively healthy in the previous meta. The previous meta had a higher APM for most professions - to some it was spammy, to some it was just mechanical pressure - in any sense you have to be thoughtful now about how you approach a fight and thoughtful about how you apply your resources. Everything counts and if you waste it you feel it - as it should be. Some professions get a luxurious pass on this in practice, though, and it's generally professions that can fire and forget skills that have lingering effects.

    Guardian symbols are a great example of this. Symbols are essentially passive cleave pressure on point that can hit 5 targets. They probably shouldn't be hitting for 2-3k, applying vuln, applying aoe boons on an interval ect. from a single skill. And you can apply this to many other professions where their traits beef up skills to the point where a regular skill is outshining the utility value of an Elite skill. That's not good.

    I'd hope that the next balance patch takes a look at this kind of stuff so that when you line up your damage properly/skillfully and evade key things that you can secure at least a decap instead of these fire and forget traits/skills warding off any kind of momentum that you might gain in a fight.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    You don't get it, things don't work like they should. I can't rethink when I said I already have done pretty much everything and can't do certain things because the game is bugged. I want to play differently, can't do it. The game has bugs.

    this is normal state of any game what I play. And this is cool for my opinion.

  • Rukia.4802Rukia.4802 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2020

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    Maybe an average build is but there are some huge exceptions I’ll just point out how PW got huge nerfs and is still decent in fact pretty much great as a thief build, dp builds in general got good nerfs to and some variants are still great. Not just thief, from what I understand war, engi, ele lots of classes you would think highly affected by cc nerfs dps and sustain nerfs are still doing great

    Alot of the stuff was tickled and not nerfed.
    Necro and guard ate almost no nerfs whatsoever, kitten like maul after double nerf is still nerfed less then most things.
    They should just add global -30% dmg taken instead of going skill by skill becouse its impossible to touch everything.
    Removal of CC removal and evasion made escaping CC much harder.
    If I play mirage against warrior my CC remove got CD increases, I lost a dodge, Im forced out of vigor ( chaos line ) and my scepter 2 and axe 3 got increased cooldowns.
    Bottom line is I can dodge WAAAAY the kitten less, and remove CC less often. But there is same ammout of CC on warrior for example. And if they take hammer then kitten me im not gonna move.
    like just look at it.
    daze/stun from dagger.
    stun from shield 4
    stun from hammer f1.
    daze from F2
    stun from F1 if reset by f2
    knockdown from bull
    aids stun spam from rampage
    backbreaker Knockdown
    staggering knockback
    thats potential 9 Hard CC skills, who the kitten can avoid all dis, im not saying its op or whatever becouse I didnt play against it but its the matter of principle.
    evade/stab/cc remov got dunked and cc remained.

    InTeRRuPt tHeIr CC! We are reaching GW1 levels of interrupt/CC-spam lately, and in that game this unironically was a thing.

    I remember reading in 2011/12 that they don't want CC overloaded builds in GW2, because they learned it from GW1 how stunlocking targets untill they die is a terrible design.

    What builds could stun lock you until you die in GW1? The one that could remotely do that was moebius strike + horns of the ox assassin which you only needed to block one chain skill to mess it all and that was in low tier pvp.

    Any DH or Backbreaker A/W or W/A variant. Once the target gets hit by the first attack, only Disciplined Stance or Shield Bash could have saved them(and these skills were pretty much only run by monks, or required the target to be on their defensive weaponset before eating the first hit). While this combo was the worst offender, any class with a knockdown could combo ridiculous things togheter, like my Rt/A lifesteal meme build that only did armor ignoring and lifesteal damage.
    All you had to do to "stunlock" someone is knocking them down again just as they were standing up. GW1 had no stunbreaks, only some instant cast stances/skills that could maybe defend you from the incoming spike once you've been incapacitated. GW1 also had no stealth whatsoever, so anticipating incoming spikes was easier, but still.

    Yeah dude this was like loooow tier pvp.. you can't just wombo combo someone solo in a GvG lol ofc this happened in jq/fa/ab/ra but even still there are tons of anti melee. Real spike dmg in GW1 was coordinated from most of the group on comms, dying to a single assassin meme spec is impossible in a real group and that goes for any other class too. We weren't rambo 1man armies like in GW2.

    GW2 need list:
    GW1 Assassin elite spec
    Option to hide party/squad nameplate
    Particle effect slider/ability to turn friendly player effects off

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    Maybe an average build is but there are some huge exceptions I’ll just point out how PW got huge nerfs and is still decent in fact pretty much great as a thief build, dp builds in general got good nerfs to and some variants are still great. Not just thief, from what I understand war, engi, ele lots of classes you would think highly affected by cc nerfs dps and sustain nerfs are still doing great

    Alot of the stuff was tickled and not nerfed.
    Necro and guard ate almost no nerfs whatsoever, kitten like maul after double nerf is still nerfed less then most things.
    They should just add global -30% dmg taken instead of going skill by skill becouse its impossible to touch everything.
    Removal of CC removal and evasion made escaping CC much harder.
    If I play mirage against warrior my CC remove got CD increases, I lost a dodge, Im forced out of vigor ( chaos line ) and my scepter 2 and axe 3 got increased cooldowns.
    Bottom line is I can dodge WAAAAY the kitten less, and remove CC less often. But there is same ammout of CC on warrior for example. And if they take hammer then kitten me im not gonna move.
    like just look at it.
    daze/stun from dagger.
    stun from shield 4
    stun from hammer f1.
    daze from F2
    stun from F1 if reset by f2
    knockdown from bull
    aids stun spam from rampage
    backbreaker Knockdown
    staggering knockback
    thats potential 9 Hard CC skills, who the kitten can avoid all dis, im not saying its op or whatever becouse I didnt play against it but its the matter of principle.
    evade/stab/cc remov got dunked and cc remained.

    InTeRRuPt tHeIr CC! We are reaching GW1 levels of interrupt/CC-spam lately, and in that game this unironically was a thing.

    I remember reading in 2011/12 that they don't want CC overloaded builds in GW2, because they learned it from GW1 how stunlocking targets untill they die is a terrible design. Guess those people don't work there anymore. By the way, when the game released 2 dodges were more then enough to handle CC in teamfights. The "just dodge" meme wasn't always a meme, both CC and stability used to be really really rare.

    Imo roughly half of the CC skills across the board need to be reworked into something else. If you wan't to keep the enemy stunlocked, spec into something that cannot be all that offensive by default(like hammer+mace/shield warrior or something ridiculous like that).

    We also have to remember there's a few key differences between the game back then and now.
    Energy sigil refunded 1 full dodge - everyone ran 1 or 2 of these.
    Vigor was 100% endurance regeneration and not the 50% we have now
    Who remembers original vamp runes with auto proc mist form?
    Stability was a binary product, when you had it you were immune to CC and some classes had tons of it.
    Boon rips and corruptions were less prevalent back then, so too were boons but we also had things like double balanced stance etc.

    CMC has got halfway there, they need to increase the CDs on the CC skills mostly, I made a post a long time ago when people were complaining about CI showing we have more than double the amount of CC on mesmer vs core interrupt build, you could have a lot more if you wanted it. Unfortunately some of the problems are deep seated design problems that need to be negotiated with the skills team I believe, example being the CC baseline on FB is hard to deal with unless you literally add a 300s CD on them, Full Counter mechanically is very difficult to balance in regards to CC spam and that's without thinking about the tether.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:
    @Shao.7236 Surprised? I am not. Once I saw the rework and the amount of tardiness in leaving “to be fixed later” all over the place, it was clear how and things will turn out. It will take 8-12 month to get things to a stable level. With the current balance team we will never get more than a handful of meta builds.

    This is why you do not do hard reset if you don’t have the capacity and the competence to release a complete product.

    Still playable, there's a clear amount self carry content in the game now though. So far, the season has been not as bad as I thought, besides the few occasions of clear advantages at least. You put your predictions down, we'll see how Anet holds up, the patch looked like it would have done way more as a blanket, clearly it wasn't.

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rukia.4802 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    Maybe an average build is but there are some huge exceptions I’ll just point out how PW got huge nerfs and is still decent in fact pretty much great as a thief build, dp builds in general got good nerfs to and some variants are still great. Not just thief, from what I understand war, engi, ele lots of classes you would think highly affected by cc nerfs dps and sustain nerfs are still doing great

    Alot of the stuff was tickled and not nerfed.
    Necro and guard ate almost no nerfs whatsoever, kitten like maul after double nerf is still nerfed less then most things.
    They should just add global -30% dmg taken instead of going skill by skill becouse its impossible to touch everything.
    Removal of CC removal and evasion made escaping CC much harder.
    If I play mirage against warrior my CC remove got CD increases, I lost a dodge, Im forced out of vigor ( chaos line ) and my scepter 2 and axe 3 got increased cooldowns.
    Bottom line is I can dodge WAAAAY the kitten less, and remove CC less often. But there is same ammout of CC on warrior for example. And if they take hammer then kitten me im not gonna move.
    like just look at it.
    daze/stun from dagger.
    stun from shield 4
    stun from hammer f1.
    daze from F2
    stun from F1 if reset by f2
    knockdown from bull
    aids stun spam from rampage
    backbreaker Knockdown
    staggering knockback
    thats potential 9 Hard CC skills, who the kitten can avoid all dis, im not saying its op or whatever becouse I didnt play against it but its the matter of principle.
    evade/stab/cc remov got dunked and cc remained.

    InTeRRuPt tHeIr CC! We are reaching GW1 levels of interrupt/CC-spam lately, and in that game this unironically was a thing.

    I remember reading in 2011/12 that they don't want CC overloaded builds in GW2, because they learned it from GW1 how stunlocking targets untill they die is a terrible design.

    What builds could stun lock you until you die in GW1? The one that could remotely do that was moebius strike + horns of the ox assassin which you only needed to block one chain skill to mess it all and that was in low tier pvp.

    Any DH or Backbreaker A/W or W/A variant. Once the target gets hit by the first attack, only Disciplined Stance or Shield Bash could have saved them(and these skills were pretty much only run by monks, or required the target to be on their defensive weaponset before eating the first hit). While this combo was the worst offender, any class with a knockdown could combo ridiculous things togheter, like my Rt/A lifesteal meme build that only did armor ignoring and lifesteal damage.
    All you had to do to "stunlock" someone is knocking them down again just as they were standing up. GW1 had no stunbreaks, only some instant cast stances/skills that could maybe defend you from the incoming spike once you've been incapacitated. GW1 also had no stealth whatsoever, so anticipating incoming spikes was easier, but still.

    Yeah dude this was like loooow tier pvp.. you can't just wombo combo someone solo in a GvG lol ofc this happened in jq/fa/ab/ra but even still there are tons of anti melee. Real spike dmg in GW1 was coordinated from most of the group on comms, dying to a single assassin meme spec is impossible in a real group and that goes for any other class too. We weren't rambo 1man armies like in GW2.

    I literally got silvercape by memeing a 4/4 split and 2 A/W as frontline, also trolled with the knockdown-spam in r10+ HoH teams. If that's low tier, what's high?
    If abusing out of control CC-spam builds is possible, there will be high end pvp players doing it. That's what happened in GW1 and it will also happen in GW2 now.

    I have played several dozen matches with Lightning Rod weaver this last two weeks, I can finally say I can utilise most of it's potential. And it's distgusting. A few builds with on-demand stability counter it, rest has to flee and/or gank. Lack of condiremoval could mean that condition builds keep it in check however... no they don't. I can just charge the enemy condi-bunker revenant/necro, and interrupt them to death. This feels exactly like A/W did back in my GW1 days. A few mindgames to bait/fake out defenses, and everything dies.

  • Rukia.4802Rukia.4802 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2020

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    Maybe an average build is but there are some huge exceptions I’ll just point out how PW got huge nerfs and is still decent in fact pretty much great as a thief build, dp builds in general got good nerfs to and some variants are still great. Not just thief, from what I understand war, engi, ele lots of classes you would think highly affected by cc nerfs dps and sustain nerfs are still doing great

    Alot of the stuff was tickled and not nerfed.
    Necro and guard ate almost no nerfs whatsoever, kitten like maul after double nerf is still nerfed less then most things.
    They should just add global -30% dmg taken instead of going skill by skill becouse its impossible to touch everything.
    Removal of CC removal and evasion made escaping CC much harder.
    If I play mirage against warrior my CC remove got CD increases, I lost a dodge, Im forced out of vigor ( chaos line ) and my scepter 2 and axe 3 got increased cooldowns.
    Bottom line is I can dodge WAAAAY the kitten less, and remove CC less often. But there is same ammout of CC on warrior for example. And if they take hammer then kitten me im not gonna move.
    like just look at it.
    daze/stun from dagger.
    stun from shield 4
    stun from hammer f1.
    daze from F2
    stun from F1 if reset by f2
    knockdown from bull
    aids stun spam from rampage
    backbreaker Knockdown
    staggering knockback
    thats potential 9 Hard CC skills, who the kitten can avoid all dis, im not saying its op or whatever becouse I didnt play against it but its the matter of principle.
    evade/stab/cc remov got dunked and cc remained.

    InTeRRuPt tHeIr CC! We are reaching GW1 levels of interrupt/CC-spam lately, and in that game this unironically was a thing.

    I remember reading in 2011/12 that they don't want CC overloaded builds in GW2, because they learned it from GW1 how stunlocking targets untill they die is a terrible design.

    What builds could stun lock you until you die in GW1? The one that could remotely do that was moebius strike + horns of the ox assassin which you only needed to block one chain skill to mess it all and that was in low tier pvp.

    Any DH or Backbreaker A/W or W/A variant. Once the target gets hit by the first attack, only Disciplined Stance or Shield Bash could have saved them(and these skills were pretty much only run by monks, or required the target to be on their defensive weaponset before eating the first hit). While this combo was the worst offender, any class with a knockdown could combo ridiculous things togheter, like my Rt/A lifesteal meme build that only did armor ignoring and lifesteal damage.
    All you had to do to "stunlock" someone is knocking them down again just as they were standing up. GW1 had no stunbreaks, only some instant cast stances/skills that could maybe defend you from the incoming spike once you've been incapacitated. GW1 also had no stealth whatsoever, so anticipating incoming spikes was easier, but still.

    Yeah dude this was like loooow tier pvp.. you can't just wombo combo someone solo in a GvG lol ofc this happened in jq/fa/ab/ra but even still there are tons of anti melee. Real spike dmg in GW1 was coordinated from most of the group on comms, dying to a single assassin meme spec is impossible in a real group and that goes for any other class too. We weren't rambo 1man armies like in GW2.

    I literally got silvercape by memeing a 4/4 split and 2 A/W as frontline, also trolled with the knockdown-spam in r10+ HoH teams. If that's low tier, what's high?
    If abusing out of control CC-spam builds is possible, there will be high end pvp players doing it. That's what happened in GW1 and it will also happen in GW2 now.

    I have played several dozen matches with Lightning Rod weaver this last two weeks, I can finally say I can utilise most of it's potential. And it's distgusting. A few builds with on-demand stability counter it, rest has to flee and/or gank. Lack of condiremoval could mean that condition builds keep it in check however... no they don't. I can just charge the enemy condi-bunker revenant/necro, and interrupt them to death. This feels exactly like A/W did back in my GW1 days. A few mindgames to bait/fake out defenses, and everything dies.

    Yeah sure I believe you bro.. mind showing me in GW1 as I still GvG you can show me how assassin just destroys with perma CC :# it'll be a bit difficult when target has support and is in an actual team.

    anyway what isn't cancer in gw2

    GW2 need list:
    GW1 Assassin elite spec
    Option to hide party/squad nameplate
    Particle effect slider/ability to turn friendly player effects off

  • Erzian.5218Erzian.5218 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2020

    @Rukia.4802 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    Maybe an average build is but there are some huge exceptions I’ll just point out how PW got huge nerfs and is still decent in fact pretty much great as a thief build, dp builds in general got good nerfs to and some variants are still great. Not just thief, from what I understand war, engi, ele lots of classes you would think highly affected by cc nerfs dps and sustain nerfs are still doing great

    Alot of the stuff was tickled and not nerfed.
    Necro and guard ate almost no nerfs whatsoever, kitten like maul after double nerf is still nerfed less then most things.
    They should just add global -30% dmg taken instead of going skill by skill becouse its impossible to touch everything.
    Removal of CC removal and evasion made escaping CC much harder.
    If I play mirage against warrior my CC remove got CD increases, I lost a dodge, Im forced out of vigor ( chaos line ) and my scepter 2 and axe 3 got increased cooldowns.
    Bottom line is I can dodge WAAAAY the kitten less, and remove CC less often. But there is same ammout of CC on warrior for example. And if they take hammer then kitten me im not gonna move.
    like just look at it.
    daze/stun from dagger.
    stun from shield 4
    stun from hammer f1.
    daze from F2
    stun from F1 if reset by f2
    knockdown from bull
    aids stun spam from rampage
    backbreaker Knockdown
    staggering knockback
    thats potential 9 Hard CC skills, who the kitten can avoid all dis, im not saying its op or whatever becouse I didnt play against it but its the matter of principle.
    evade/stab/cc remov got dunked and cc remained.

    InTeRRuPt tHeIr CC! We are reaching GW1 levels of interrupt/CC-spam lately, and in that game this unironically was a thing.

    I remember reading in 2011/12 that they don't want CC overloaded builds in GW2, because they learned it from GW1 how stunlocking targets untill they die is a terrible design.

    What builds could stun lock you until you die in GW1? The one that could remotely do that was moebius strike + horns of the ox assassin which you only needed to block one chain skill to mess it all and that was in low tier pvp.

    Any DH or Backbreaker A/W or W/A variant. Once the target gets hit by the first attack, only Disciplined Stance or Shield Bash could have saved them(and these skills were pretty much only run by monks, or required the target to be on their defensive weaponset before eating the first hit). While this combo was the worst offender, any class with a knockdown could combo ridiculous things togheter, like my Rt/A lifesteal meme build that only did armor ignoring and lifesteal damage.
    All you had to do to "stunlock" someone is knocking them down again just as they were standing up. GW1 had no stunbreaks, only some instant cast stances/skills that could maybe defend you from the incoming spike once you've been incapacitated. GW1 also had no stealth whatsoever, so anticipating incoming spikes was easier, but still.

    Yeah dude this was like loooow tier pvp.. you can't just wombo combo someone solo in a GvG lol ofc this happened in jq/fa/ab/ra but even still there are tons of anti melee. Real spike dmg in GW1 was coordinated from most of the group on comms, dying to a single assassin meme spec is impossible in a real group and that goes for any other class too. We weren't rambo 1man armies like in GW2.

    I literally got silvercape by memeing a 4/4 split and 2 A/W as frontline, also trolled with the knockdown-spam in r10+ HoH teams. If that's low tier, what's high?
    If abusing out of control CC-spam builds is possible, there will be high end pvp players doing it. That's what happened in GW1 and it will also happen in GW2 now.

    I have played several dozen matches with Lightning Rod weaver this last two weeks, I can finally say I can utilise most of it's potential. And it's distgusting. A few builds with on-demand stability counter it, rest has to flee and/or gank. Lack of condiremoval could mean that condition builds keep it in check however... no they don't. I can just charge the enemy condi-bunker revenant/necro, and interrupt them to death. This feels exactly like A/W did back in my GW1 days. A few mindgames to bait/fake out defenses, and everything dies.

    Yeah sure I believe you bro.. mind showing me in GW1 as I still GvG you can show me how assassin just destroys with perma CC :# it'll be a bit difficult when target has support and is in an actual team.

    anyway what isn't cancer in gw2

    He most likely played the game before you got silver trim by signing up for the mat, in a different balance patch and maybe even before eye of the north (aura of stability). The game is entirely different nowadays from what it used to be as damage is out of control and 8v8s being decided in less than 4 minutes regularly because the back line starts to struggle the moment your midline plays aggressively despite people having 3(!) monks and running flag on mid- or frontline instead of having 2 monks and primarily running on a ritualist.
    I’d pick gw2 pvp over the current form of gw1 anytime (but not over gw1 when it still had support).