Strike wont make me raid - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Strike wont make me raid

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  • psyt.9415psyt.9415 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2020

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    Strikes were never going to get people to raid. ANet are like a toddler in MMO-basics. An easy mode for casuals is the norm now but ANet didn't get the memo just like proper queue system for instances.

    Its a shame because probably so few people actually see raids and they don't see it as a great return on investment. If they just implement a LFR then 90% of players will queue into it if all they have to do is press a button and do a couple ez mechanics and see the story. I bet the public option for strikes is very popular for example.

    Then the content isn't "wasted" and THIS is what gets people to move onto pugging normal, heroic, etc. in WoW. Sure, most will probably stick to LFR which is fine, but you do get quite a few new raiders and in the end what does it matter if everyone gets to see the content you will still have your casuals and hardcores.

    Strikes are so disconnected with raids its silly.

    I had a debate on this very point on the actual Raid/ Strike sub forum. This is what ive been saying for years. The fact you have to make your own group is a pain in the kitten. Im up for more content on the same difficulty level as the old explore dungeons were but I dont necessarily want to be making my own group every time I feel the need.

  • Mea.5491Mea.5491 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    That's why I intentionally mentioned that I was not attacking you or criticizing.

    It's okay, I didn't consider it an attack. Just wanna make sure people don't think that I kept trying with my FB. :lol: I'm crazy but not THAT crazy.

  • Adul.1520Adul.1520 Member ✭✭✭

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    Maybe give a 10% DPS/Health/Healing buff for every player not in your party and call it a day.

    Expansion 3 headlining feature: heroes and henchmen. :lol:

  • Cuks.8241Cuks.8241 Member ✭✭✭

    The problem GW2 has with raiding is that raids are a side project. Their main focus is on open world and they handle it very well with the big metas. These open world metas also complement the story well, you fight many of the big bosses of the game there.
    In comparison Wow's raids were the pinnacle of everything. All the main story, everything happening in the world lead to these big famous raid bosses like Illidan or the Lich King and they dropped unique legendary weapons (not only legendary quality wise but literary weapons of legends) . Everyone wanted to fight Arthas since the start of Woltk if not since the start of Wow because of War3. The opening cinematic for Woltk (very cool one also) featured the Lich King, the last boss in the final raid of the expansion. This is why people started raiding.
    I agree that something like LFR mode would help raiding a lot or at least make the content worthwhile to develop. It also makes sense in a game without real gear progression. In Wow LFR was criticized that it obsoletes previous raids because it is easier to gear up in the current LFR as in older raids so progression became playing the same raid on different difficulties. It was also seen as a free gear handout. Here these complaints are moot because gear is very cheap and available through any content.

  • sevenDEADLY.5281sevenDEADLY.5281 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2020

    How would you propose a queue system in this game work? Other MMOs have the regular Tank, Healer, DPS trinity to role queue. Here we don't have that but we do have a soft group subset. While not 100% required, things like alacrity support, quickness support, healers, banner warrior, and the appropriate tank make raids 10x more manageable than not having any of those. If you just throw 10 randos into a raid queue you could end up with literally none of those things.

  • Brimstone.3807Brimstone.3807 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cuks.8241 said:
    The problem GW2 has with raiding is that raids are a side project. Their main focus is on open world and they handle it very well with the big metas. These open world metas also complement the story well, you fight many of the big bosses of the game there.
    In comparison Wow's raids were the pinnacle of everything. All the main story, everything happening in the world lead to these big famous raid bosses like Illidan or the Lich King and they dropped unique legendary weapons (not only legendary quality wise but literary weapons of legends) . Everyone wanted to fight Arthas since the start of Woltk if not since the start of Wow because of War3. The opening cinematic for Woltk (very cool one also) featured the Lich King, the last boss in the final raid of the expansion. This is why people started raiding.
    I agree that something like LFR mode would help raiding a lot or at least make the content worthwhile to develop. It also makes sense in a game without real gear progression. In Wow LFR was criticized that it obsoletes previous raids because it is easier to gear up in the current LFR as in older raids so progression became playing the same raid on different difficulties. It was also seen as a free gear handout. Here these complaints are moot because gear is very cheap and available through any content.

    I hear you. However; I'd say this is NOT a problem, but a feature. ESO does this as well. The Main plot being resolved in raids is why I personally raided in WoW. I never enjoyed the concept of raiding. Too many people and schedules to juggle. LFR was created to save raiding because too few were doing it. Static Group Non Casual Raiding is and always has been niche. That is not to say that raiding is bad or good, just that it does not have mass appeal. For me, if Arena Net ever opts to culminate a Main Plot in the story in a Raid, I am out for good. I am just done with the non-sense that is required. I will say, Strikes are accessible enough, and while it would annoy me that a major plot point was being resolved in a Strike, I'd probably tolerate it. They are quick bursts of instanced cooperative effort that don't take long to assemble for. My prediction is that Raids will go the way of the Dinosaur and we'll be seeing a focus on Strikes and Fractals.

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Adul.1520 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    Maybe give a 10% DPS/Health/Healing buff for every player not in your party and call it a day.

    Expansion 3 headlining feature: heroes and henchmen. :lol:

    lol, funnily enough I believe there's a fair chance this may end up being the main selling point of expansion 3.

    My ears, how are you! | Staff | Greatsword

  • @Curunen.8729 said:

    @Adul.1520 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    Maybe give a 10% DPS/Health/Healing buff for every player not in your party and call it a day.

    Expansion 3 headlining feature: heroes and henchmen. :lol:

    lol, funnily enough I believe there's a fair chance this may end up being the main selling point of expansion 3.

    250 man blobs in wvw :)

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @Adul.1520 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    Maybe give a 10% DPS/Health/Healing buff for every player not in your party and call it a day.

    Expansion 3 headlining feature: heroes and henchmen. :lol:

    lol, funnily enough I believe there's a fair chance this may end up being the main selling point of expansion 3.

    250 man blobs in wvw :)

    Not saying I support it! xD But wouldn't be surprised to see some kind of henchman mastery system in the future, maybe open world pve only - for example, just like you can't use mounts in fractals, and so on.

    I suppose just as mounts have areas they are disabled (ie jumping puzzles), it could be made to work by having "henchmen disabled" zones around world boss locations, and maybe completely disabled on certain maps like Dragon's Stand. And disabled in both PvP and wvw, until they decide to add the equivalent of a "warclaw"...

    But random pointless brainstorming aside, yeah I have no strong feelings one way or the other, just curious. /neutral

    My ears, how are you! | Staff | Greatsword

  • Josiah.2967Josiah.2967 Member ✭✭✭

    @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:
    How would you propose a queue system in this game work? Other MMOs have the regular Tank, Healer, DPS trinity to role queue. Here we don't have that but we do have a soft group subset. While not 100% required, things like alacrity support, quickness support, healers, banner warrior, and the appropriate tank make raids 10x more manageable than not having any of those. If you just throw 10 randos into a raid queue you could end up with literally none of those things.

    Easy.. . You Que for a dungeon.
    40% more health
    40% more dps
    40% more healing received

    You should have no problem healing yourself or getting a few AOE heals from the group to be able to handle any dungeon. Maybe add 20% damage reduction to if you need to.

  • If you feel a Moses leading your herd, great! I've seen the strike and raid population stir upwards, and that's a good thing.

  • Etria.3642Etria.3642 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So about Whisper. They really do need to fix the bug where it despawns. Had to reset it 4 times before we finally had it work. We weren't wiping...the boss was vanishing. It isn't the most recent one anymore, this should already be fixed.

  • xenon.3264xenon.3264 Member ✭✭✭

    they should convert raid into strikes splitting them. you want a single boss ? you do that . i do not raid nor i'll ever do and i hate i cannot get the legendary armor for this

  • xenon.3264xenon.3264 Member ✭✭✭

    @Adul.1520 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    Maybe give a 10% DPS/Health/Healing buff for every player not in your party and call it a day.

    Expansion 3 headlining feature: heroes and henchmen. :lol:

    so i could finally play alone ? jesus i'd pay 100 euro in the blink of an eye. this is what this game really needs .

  • coso.9173coso.9173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    me neith i'm a casual who enjoys casual content. open world content and living world episodes. a few collections too if they're easy and not too grindy. I've been playing for like 4 years and a few weeks ago i finally got my first ascended weapon by doing the bo collection.
    I did like the strike mission we got, but it's different from previous strikes that require much more coordinated efforts and bosses are harder too.

  • Kanok.3027Kanok.3027 Member ✭✭✭

    Well, people were asking for easy mode raids without the rewards from them and they got them, kind of. I'd say it's a win for everyone.

    I Rev, therefore I am. Don't ruin my favorite class, please and thank you.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Raids here have never appealed to me, I Raided in legion and I even mythic raided. I enjoyed it but I also had reasons to do it (The plot was ended there, it was built from the ground up with raids in mind.) Guild wars 2 was never designed for raids, not in one single way was it and it was designed to have WvW be it's end game and I can prove it simply by bringing up that their headlining feature durring the original launch next to a progressive, evolving ever expanding world that you played a hand in crafting (lol never happened.)

    Was WvW, the war. The true end game where everything culminated too; The story was there sure but the mist war was the focus of the end game and they abandoned it. The games combat engine is indicitive of a PvP centric game. Why would you need freaking need this kind of gameplay and class design for your typical pve mmo? Even Tera who was the closest game to guild wars 2 at the time, did not have the same combat and fluidity of this game. This game argueably still is the king of that, BDO is cool and all but I mean it feels better on a controller not a mouse and keyboard. Guild wars was built to be something FAR different then it is now~

    Its the foundation of the game that is your issue, the game does nothing and offers nothing for raiding to be more pushed toward and raiding has no purpose. You don't gain power through raids, you don't gain anything outside of legendary gear (Obtainable elsewhere) and specific skins. The meant and potatoes of Raids is missing, the end of a story and the growth in power.

    Had raids been here from the beginning im a 100% the game would be completely different and built around them, the trinity would be hard in place and not the soft trinity we have now. Gear would be upgrades and there would be tiers that is the ONLY way to make the vast majority try to raid, is by making it the end game and the focus but we are too far down the rabbit hole to do that now.

    If they made that jump and tried to do that, the game would die. Im not sure the raiding community heck, I know the raiding community is pathetic when it comes to head count the dev's have even said as much on NUMEROUS occasions and it is niche content. Its small, like very small and it always has been small because this game does not and will not ever cater or probably even begin to scratch the itch or get just the tip of what raiding is all about. Raids are like everything else = destination.

    people like to talk about the journey, but everyone I've ever talked too acrossed all the games I've played (litterally all the mmo-rpgs on the market right now) have told me they only raid if there is a point to it. No carrot? No vast overwhelming majority. Legendary armor is not enough of a carrot especially because DIFFERENT and honestly EASIER forms of obtaining it exist.

  • vyncius.6105vyncius.6105 Member ✭✭✭

    Story content isnt fun to me, i play once and i never playing story again. Because its boring press F simulator. Its not my thing.
    Does that mean anet shouldnt develop story content???? HELL NO! Some people like that and i respect that.

    I like my raids, i like to join discord with people and discuss strategies about raid. Doesnt matter if its new (those are hella fun first time) or just how to be more efficient on old raids.

    So please, keep your opinion to yourself, we understand its not your thing, but atleast stay silent and let us hope for wing 8.

    I also like strikes, especially new one and whispers of jormag.

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    Some people will never press more than AA on their main character and refuse to learn basic 3-button rotation too. Should every single one of them make a thread as well so they feel more special? Dman.. should've thought about it when dps golem was added to the game. This could've made a great post!

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2020

    @Zaklex.6308 said:
    Personal opinion is that people should start forgetting about rewards and find what's fun to play, just look for fun...and nothing else, but that's just me(and what I presume most single-player game players look for, at least in RPG's), if you're looking at the rewards, then you've already partially conditioned yourself to always look for the rewards in everything in life.

    I don't fully agree with this being a negative thing because a huge driving factor of the game is cosmetics/gear and theme park checklists.

    The latter, sure it is largely inconsequential (though I imagine AP hunters must get a sense of satisfaction ticking things off), but when it comes to skins and gear - there's a lot of fun to be had in making things look good, or acquiring legendary gear to allow the fun of endless free stat experimentation.

    But just as in real life if you have to do a job that isn't the most exciting thing eg to be able to buy something that gives you pleasure, the hurdles to earn some of this might not be fun, though the potential fun to be had drives a player through it.

    My ears, how are you! | Staff | Greatsword

  • Raizel.1839Raizel.1839 Member ✭✭
    edited March 26, 2020

    The biggest wall to enter raid for new players are LIs, so in order for strikes to break that wall, they should drop LIs too.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2020

    @Raizel.1839 said:
    The biggest wall to enter raid for new players are LIs, so in order for strikes to break that wall, they should drop LIs too.

    No, the biggest wall for new players to enter into raids is EXPERIENCE, which they will not get while getting carried in groups which demand LI.

    Find a training run and gather experience there, not leech off of a group which looks for already experienced players.

    If you are new to raids or want to get into raiding, and are looking at groups which demand LI or KP, you are looking in the wrong place.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • FrizzFreston.5290FrizzFreston.5290 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Frostfang.5109 said:
    I could raid - if i had the time, wich i dont have atm with kids.

    So true, especially with them all home these days.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    Looking For Group raiding was the best thing that happened to WOW in ages. It is what this game needs. An easier casual version of raiding where people can experience some great content for the first time. You que for a group and when it's full you are ported in. The bigger question is does GW2 have the player base to support such a system.

    Honestly, I would love Dungeon Finder too. Dungeons are a pain in the neck to do in their current state. Maybe give a 10% DPS/Health/Healing buff for every player not in your party and call it a day.

    Apples vs. Oranges.

    In WoW raids were a continuation, if not, the culmination of the story for that expansion. All the best gear, most of the best mounts, etc, all came from raids. Around the time of WoTLK, Blizzard expressed frustration that all their work and effort into designing raids was being experienced by a fraction of the population. In TBC there were no pug raids - not really. By mid-way through WoTLK you saw that a bit more; my guild leader organized weekly 25 man pug raids, and we all brought our alt characters.

    GW2 raiding isn't the same thing. They story they offer is tangent to the overall story of the game. Unique skins are present, but the gear isn't any higher a quality than what can be earned elsewhere. I'd say that the major loot incentive for raiding is faster acquisition of Legendary Armor, but Leg armor can still be earned via WvW / PvP avenues.

    Blizzard eventually created LFR because it was important to them that as many players raided as possible. In TBC you didn't fight any of the major villains (Vashj, Kael or Illidan) outside of Raids. In WoTLK you needed to raid to fight Arthas...and the same continued with future expansions and villains.

    I bet you many GW2 players have no idea who Dhuum or Qadim are, nor does it matter to them that they haven't fought them. Raiding isn't as essential to the GW2 endgame system as it is in WoW.

    So while it's great ANET want's to expand the appeal of raiding to GW2 players, it isn't done so for the same reasons Blizzard bent over backwards to make raids accessible.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raizel.1839 said:
    The biggest wall to enter raid for new players are LIs, so in order for strikes to break that wall, they should drop LIs too.

    How so? Last time I checked every1 could post their own groups in LFG with whatever requirements they want. LI or lack of them won't block any1 from raids.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2020

    @Shena Fu.5792 said:
    The problem is Anet doesn't even know what they themselves want, but try to read the players' mind on why they detest and avoid raids? I mean, conceptually what's the difference between dungeons, fractals, raids, and now strike missions? They're the same genre of content, but for some reason Anet wants to splinter the content, and consequently also splinter the playerbase.

    As for easier raids, shouldn't the solution be to use the same maps, but provide varying levels of difficulty? Like the dungeons with easier story mode and harder exploration modes. So that players can familiarize with the same map, mechanics, and encounters. What doesn't relate is how completing strike missions would help with raids, when their requirements are totally different--possibly even opposite and counterproductive of each other.

    Unfortunately, what don't differ between modes are the elitism and toxicity with certain raiders (where raider here generally means players who devote to instanced, small group, high difficulty content, including in GW2 dungeons, fractals, raids, and strike missions). The elitism, toxicity, arrogance, exclusion, etc. will persist due to the nature of this type of content. And this type of behavior won't vanish just because difficulty is altered. As we have seen for dungeons and fractals, and now strike missions, some devoted players will always want to do it faster, better.

    So the elitism and exclusion remains; just because you call these contents different names won't make the issues magically go away. It's inherent in this type of content. And why huge portion of the playerbase won't engage in any similar content--it's the principle of the matter.

    +10

    you are outrightly correct. Those are the exact reasons why i don't raid and do not have any intention of doing so

  • sevenDEADLY.5281sevenDEADLY.5281 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2020

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:
    How would you propose a queue system in this game work? Other MMOs have the regular Tank, Healer, DPS trinity to role queue. Here we don't have that but we do have a soft group subset. While not 100% required, things like alacrity support, quickness support, healers, banner warrior, and the appropriate tank make raids 10x more manageable than not having any of those. If you just throw 10 randos into a raid queue you could end up with literally none of those things.

    Easy.. . You Que for a dungeon.
    40% more health
    40% more dps
    40% more healing received

    You should have no problem healing yourself or getting a few AOE heals from the group to be able to handle any dungeon. Maybe add 20% damage reduction to if you need to.

    Those numbers are extremely unrealistic. Why not just make it so when you enter, all the bosses just die instantly? That's taking "challenging group content (Arenanet's purposeful design)" and turning it into a joke simply because some people can't be bothered to better themselves. Even WoW's dungeon queue only added 5% - 15% to the things you're describing and that already turns the dungeons into a walking simulator.

  • Just to toss my few cents in here:
    I tried to get into raiding once, I've dedicated considerable amount of effort to get minimal required gear - as per raiding community advises at the time - trinkets and weapons ascended, armor exotic. Wasn't ever a persistent farmer myself hence even that was big effort for me.

    and just after I have got that assembled and started running some runs with friends from a guild to introduce me into mechanics balance pass came that heavilly shifted he meta - and now all my gear I have worked for so long was "wrong". Since friends encouraged that it can still work just won't be optimally strong I have hanged around for one more week.

    Why only one more week?
    Because then we started trying fruther bosses than just vale guardian, and we were failing dps checks on sabetha, and dpsers were complaining about insufficient might generation. Considering I was a druid which now had a role for might generation and I had clerics instead of harriers, I had added the dots, come to conclusion that it's my gear defficiencies that are hamperign the squad and decided to get back to the topic once I will get the "proper" gear.

    Which I didn't, like ever.

    Now I will admit that I don't know how the balancing of raids changed over the years since that but I am still convinced on not going back without full ascended set. I was pretty "meh" about strike missions as they have released - only bothered really with shiverpeaks pass because I really wanted ebon vanguard shoulderpiece skin for my thief. But with newest updates to it I have found the crystals to be finally a method of gearing up accessible enough for me to be able to meet the gear goal in comfortable timespan. In that regard strike missions for now appears "good" for closing the gap - I can get geared up while I get comfortable with 10-man mechanics and compositions and how weird boss mechanics affects the scope. So that's a win for me ;)

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2020

    @Zaklex.6308 said:
    Let me stop you right there, do you even know what the actual true definition of an MMO is? I'm not sure everyone here understands it, and I'm talking the definition as defined in today's world, not as it was 10 - 20 years ago. To make it simple for those that don't get it, I'll break it down: M = Massive(that's an easy one); M = Multi-player, ala multiple players(not groups, just multiple players inhabiting the same world space); O = Online(again, that's easy). So, in essence it's really a huge game that allows hundreds if not thousands of people to play in the same world space alone OR with others. This whole game is basically been single player(s) on the same plane since the beginning with the Personal Stories(all single player instances up until Zaitan until it was redone as a single player instance), and they've continued that with the LS with the exceptions of some parts of LS1(which I skipped because I already didn't like it before release) and this latest Visions of the Past.

    Were you just here to dance or did you have a point to prove somewhere in there? You are after all asking about the "true" definition of MMO, suggest that it is different now from how it used to be only to quote the definition as it always has been.

    Not only that but you then proceed to claim that it has always been single-player driven while every player who played back then knows that no one cared about the personal story at release. It was generally regarded as piecemeal and bad. The maps and the dynamic events made up the majority of your playtime. Even the dungeons were played far more than the story and while not massive, at least they were multiplayer. You mention some exceptions in LS1 but if you look at the releases of the game (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Release): the focus on Living World as something that transpires on the open maps in a massive-multiplayer environment comprised the first two years of the game. It was generally massive-multiplayer events on the maps or event-instances of the maps. The stuff people actually cared about with LS1, like the Marionette events, was clear-cut MMO content. The stuff that made the game sell 3-4 million copies in the first few years was the dynamic events on the maps, world bosses and all PvP. That is what was marketed and sold.

    What has transpired after that can best be described as waves of failed attempts to draw in other audiences and hoping that their core audience won't abandon them. That's the trainwreck of failures that we have seen since even if it is true for most part that their core audience has proven loyal and resilient.

    Ed. In fact, arguably, even S2 was mostly run as an aside, setting up the expansion as a prelude with a new type of event maps and even HoT was initially more map-focused with the verticality and the new event maps - the more grindy kind of event map (with progression-end boss-reset) that you have mostly seen accompanying LS ever since. It wasn't really until later that the story of the LS started to take more focus than the event map that accompanied it. S3 had perhaps more a focus on the story with the maps being variably good or bad.

  • Josiah.2967Josiah.2967 Member ✭✭✭

    @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:
    How would you propose a queue system in this game work? Other MMOs have the regular Tank, Healer, DPS trinity to role queue. Here we don't have that but we do have a soft group subset. While not 100% required, things like alacrity support, quickness support, healers, banner warrior, and the appropriate tank make raids 10x more manageable than not having any of those. If you just throw 10 randos into a raid queue you could end up with literally none of those things.

    Easy.. . You Que for a dungeon.
    40% more health
    40% more dps
    40% more healing received

    You should have no problem healing yourself or getting a few AOE heals from the group to be able to handle any dungeon. Maybe add 20% damage reduction to if you need to.

    Those numbers are extremely unrealistic. Why not just make it so when you enter, all the bosses just die instantly? That's taking "challenging group content (Arenanet's purposeful design)" and turning it into a joke simply because some people can't be bothered to better themselves. Even WoW's dungeon queue only added 5% - 15% to the things you're describing and that already turns the dungeons into a walking simulator.

    Percentages can easily be adjusted. Guild Wars 2 does not have a dedicated trinity, so I believe the numbers need to be slightly higher. That was just an example on the top of my head.

  • Alyster.9470Alyster.9470 Member ✭✭✭

    Wow, why do people get so offended by strikes lol? If you dont want to do raids, then just dont do it? I never heard ANet "Forcing" people to do them, smh.

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭

    That would require a premise that is simply not true.

    If they were actually trying to get people to do raids then that would imply they were stuff putting a lot of efforts into creating raids but there is nothing to suggest that they are.

    Raids look like just another one of the failed experiments. Dungeons would be another.

    Strikes is the new thing. Success or failure is yet to be determined.

  • Josiah.2967Josiah.2967 Member ✭✭✭

    @Alyster.9470 said:
    Wow, why do people get so offended by strikes lol? If you dont want to do raids, then just dont do it? I never heard ANet "Forcing" people to do them, smh.

    I honestly believe it's because the meta achievement and a mastery point. The lock of a "Strike" mastery line, makes some players feel they need it for world content.

  • Zaklex.6308Zaklex.6308 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @Zaklex.6308 said:
    Let me stop you right there, do you even know what the actual true definition of an MMO is? I'm not sure everyone here understands it, and I'm talking the definition as defined in today's world, not as it was 10 - 20 years ago. To make it simple for those that don't get it, I'll break it down: M = Massive(that's an easy one); M = Multi-player, ala multiple players(not groups, just multiple players inhabiting the same world space); O = Online(again, that's easy). So, in essence it's really a huge game that allows hundreds if not thousands of people to play in the same world space alone OR with others. This whole game is basically been single player(s) on the same plane since the beginning with the Personal Stories(all single player instances up until Zaitan until it was redone as a single player instance), and they've continued that with the LS with the exceptions of some parts of LS1(which I skipped because I already didn't like it before release) and this latest Visions of the Past.

    Were you just here to dance or did you have a point to prove somewhere in there? You are after all asking about the "true" definition of MMO, suggest that it is different now from how it used to be only to quote the definition as it always has been.

    Not only that but you then proceed to claim that it has always been single-player driven while every player who played back then knows that no one cared about the personal story at release. It was generally regarded as piecemeal and bad. The maps and the dynamic events made up the majority of your playtime. Even the dungeons were played far more than the story and while not massive, at least they were multiplayer. You mention some exceptions in LS1 but if you look at the releases of the game (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Release): the focus on Living World as something that transpires on the open maps in a massive-multiplayer environment comprised the first two years of the game. It was generally massive-multiplayer events on the maps or event-instances of the maps. The stuff people actually cared about with LS1, like the Marionette events, was clear-cut MMO content. The stuff that made the game sell 3-4 million copies in the first few years was the dynamic events on the maps, world bosses and all PvP. That is what was marketed and sold.

    What has transpired after that can best be described as waves of failed attempts to draw in other audiences and hoping that their core audience won't abandon them. That's the trainwreck of failures that we have seen since even if it is true for most part that their core audience has proven loyal and resilient.

    Ed. In fact, arguably, even S2 was mostly run as an aside, setting up the expansion as a prelude with a new type of event maps and even HoT was initially more map-focused with the verticality and the new event maps - the more grindy kind of event map (with progression-end boss-reset) that you have mostly seen accompanying LS ever since. It wasn't really until later that the story of the LS started to take more focus than the event map that accompanied it. S3 had perhaps more a focus on the story with the maps being variably good or bad.

    That was in response to the specific part of your prior post talking about the story isn't working out for ArenaNet, yet the entire game has been story driven from the beginning and still is to this day, and most stories are single-player based. They also heavily pushed the Personal Story before and up to the games release, it wasn't just the Dynamic events, WvW, PvP and World Bosses...it was equal marketing of all 4 parts, not emphasizing one area over another.

    I'm pretty sure apart from Map Meta events or world bosses I've done most of the game in a solo mode, only with this latest episode(and Zaitan before the change) did I have to group with others to complete anything main story related. I don't consider the raids in this game main story related. As for LS1, I didn't even play it live because I was sick of it before it even released...can't tell you how but I'm pretty sure it's not that hard to figure out how I could've been sick of it before release, and I didn't like it either.

    Do you deny that with the exception of the Map Meta's, Dungeon's(at the start), Fractals and Raids everything else can be done solo, apart from those few(2) maps that require groups to complete. I can tell we're never going to agree so there's really no point in discussing this anymore...perhaps ArenaNet would've been better just following their design intent, what ever story they had outlined and not listened to any players at all, however anti-customer satisfying that would be.

    Yes...no...maybe...what do you want, can't you see I'm busy saving the world...AGAIN!

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2020

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Amy of Darkness.5248 said:

    @Khisanth.2948 said:
    That would require a premise that is simply not true.

    If they were actually trying to get people to do raids then that would imply they were stuff putting a lot of efforts into creating raids but there is nothing to suggest that they are.

    They expressly said that strike missions are a ramp on to raids.
    So yeah, it is true. And yeah, they are putting the cart before the horse by not making new Raid content while soft-pushing Raid content. Why make new Raid when so many players haven't even played the "Raid they have at home" even once, yet? This is not made for Raid longtime players-- this is an attempt to appeal to new potential Raiders. When those numbers are up, they might make more Raid content, maybe.

    But I'm sorry, as much as Raid folks might want that, that's no excuse for the people acting defensive and weirdly hostile over how other people want to play the game if it differs from their preferred way of playing it?

    I have not seen one single person say they want Anet to stop making Raids and Strikes, only to keep that stuff opt-in and not entangle it with Story and map meta achievements going forward, it's basically a "but-thou-must" just to frog boil players into harder and harder content in vain hope we will check out raids without actually fixing the fundamental problems with them. We are allowed to push back with our opinion and say "No thank you, please, not like this".

    The problem is that no developer can fix player behavior, and player behavior is a bigger barrier to this type of content than the content itself. They have the "You must be this tall to ride this ride" mentality built into them from the moment they decide to dedicate their time to it and get into the little clique. Anything that they feel may negatively impact them, real or imagined, such as "people insisting they stop making group content", something that is very definitely made up, they have to go in full on attack mode with "well, you're just bad" and the like. I guess it's easier to argue against the fiction than admit the truth.

    Well said. Nothing wrong with raids, it serves a particular player type and anet should keep assigning resource to raids proportional to the value the player base gets out of it.

    Equally it would be good if anet acknowledged that people enjoyed strikes assuming that the case, and perhaps design a type of raid that other demographics enjoy alongside strikes.

    Devs thinking that players will like the current style of raids because they will use strikes as a stepping stone is ill informed. It's like saying: you don't like marmite, but you will like marmite if you try gravy. No, I just don't like marmite!

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭

    @Elden Arnaas.4870 said:
    re: Some people will never press more than AA on their main character and refuse to learn basic 3-button rotation too. Should every single one of them make a thread as well so they feel more special? - The other threads about strikes are about strikes being used to gate achievements and story. This thread is about strikes being used to get more people to do raids - which ANet has explicttly said is the purpose of strikes.(under the raids heading, second paragraph)
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97028/a-message-from-andrew-gray
    So this thread is different from those others - it is not redundant. And it is quite relevant. Other posters have agreed with the OP. And there are those who have disagreed with the OP. That's what these forums are for - discussion.
    And thanks for the cheap shot where you assert that anyone who doesn't want to raid only wants to auto attack, and refuses to learn the simplest rotations. Players who want to get into strikes and maybe raids need to know the hardships that they're going to face - and toxic l33tists are certainly one of them.

    He didn't actually cheap shot you if your not the guy aa only. In fact his whole rant wasn't that bad. There are alot of players who join content they aren't geared/prepared or specced for. If I join Whisper and get downed instantly a few times and we wipe and the group asks me to change stuff or even class and I don't and the group removes me that's fine. And that's whisper. Nvm the guys getting downed over and over in groth but it's groth so they carry you. Then that same dude or 2 or 3 join raven and it's downed downed downed others get downed rezzing etc nvm BS Whisper or raids. I don't raid but you kinda get it when so many players join stuff and expect to be carried. Sometimes you can but sometimes you cause the wipe. So if raiders ask you to change specc and learn in the lfg then don't join unless you are willing too. I don't. I mean that's toxic as well joining a lfg that say whisper exp only when your not exp at all.
    I also see nonsense the opposite way. Today a group was farming koda in lfg asking for meta raid builds so I block that leader even tho I wouldn't join that group and the dudes rocking 3k AP. I've been targeted by the ldr in effing groth because I move outta the way when it's inv him screaming stack like it's effing groth so yeah both sides are toxic. But assessing the player base as highly unskilled is a legit observation. You won't see much toxicity if you join stuff you are geared/specced and prepared for so don't.