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Dragon replacement is stupid, Aurene is on the edge of being a Sue

Slowpokeking.8720Slowpokeking.8720 Member ✭✭✭

If they let her take all kinds of magic to stay as the "good dragon".

Seriously I think Anet giving "you can't kill more dragon" is stupid, it simply put the player in a very strange corner, you have to kill the evil dragon and find replacement, which could result in even worst plot. "kill the dragon and get a replacement" plot could easily backfire.

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Comments

  • @Swagger.1459 said:
    Do you actually pay attention to the story and essential elements? What is so important about dragons for the world? What would be a better story?... Like, you want all dragons to be bad and we must kill dragons as the super story plot?

    They were evil and world consuming monsters when they were designed. It's a faceslap if you try to retcon them in the middle of the story.

    I don't see "replace every dragon" is better than "kill every dragon". Zhaitan's plot was much better than Kralkatorrik's other than the last fight.

  • Also Aurene's plot worked for now because her plot has the long setup since LWS2 and Glint's connection. Still her current status would be very difficult to handle.

    I don't see how this plot route could be repeated for the other dragons and if you want Aurene to take everything it's gonna turn her into a super sue/plot device.

  • Slowpokeking.8720Slowpokeking.8720 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2020

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Right, at the time humanoids may have known the dragons to be the ultimate evil that needs to be eradicated, but then the humanoid races learned that the dragons were a part of the natural order and part of the magic fabric of the world... So plot twist off of the old, and unoriginal,1 dimensional "monsters bad, kill minsters" stories and themes.

    I'm not talking about humanoids, it's the design of dragons by Anet before LWS3. Did you even see the end of EotN how did they describe the Elder Dragons?

    The dragons are the ultimate evil that needs to be eradicated, they kill all the living things, and they don't restore nature Their corruption has nothing to do with natural order. They simply want to consume all lives and magic. All of these made them the big bad.

    Even now, the dragons are still no different, they are just very bad. The only difference is that you cannot kill them without replacement.

    Unless they do a huge retcon, that's how the dragons are. "Monster bad, but you can't kill them, has to find replacement" conflicting plot is much worse actually.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2020

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Right, at the time humanoids may have known the dragons to be the ultimate evil that needs to be eradicated, but then the humanoid races learned that the dragons were a part of the natural order and part of the magic fabric of the world... So plot twist off of the old, and unoriginal,1 dimensional "monsters bad, kill minsters" stories and themes.

    I'm not talking about humanoids, it's the design of dragons by Anet before LWS3. Did you even see the end of EotN how did they describe the Elder Dragons?

    The dragons are the ultimate evil that needs to be eradicated, they kill all the living things, and they don't restore nature Their corruption has nothing to do with natural order. They simply want to consume all lives and magic. All of these made them the big bad.

    Even now, the dragons are still no different, they are just very bad. The only difference is that you cannot kill them without replacement.

    Unless they do a huge retcon, that's how the dragons are. "Monster bad, but you can't kill them, has to find replacement" conflicting plot is much worse actually.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragon

    "Dragons are powerful creatures which come in many forms and live across Tyria. They are reptilian beasts connected to various elements, most commonly fire. Unrelated to the ancient Elder Dragons bound to the All"... https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_All

  • Slowpokeking.8720Slowpokeking.8720 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2020

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragon

    "Dragons are powerful creatures which come in many forms and live across Tyria. They are reptilian beasts connected to various elements, most commonly fire. Unrelated to the ancient Elder Dragons bound to the All"... https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_All

    We are talking about the Elder Dragons. They were created to be the big bad.

    I don't disagree to add more character development, but that doesn't mean you have to add the "you can't kill them" stupid plot. Actually it added nothing to the dragons other than killing them=blow up the world.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2020

    @Slowpokeking.8720

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Elder_Dragon

    "The Elder Dragons are primordial creatures dating back before the time of the Giganticus Lupicus and long before the arrival of the gods in Tyria."

    Even in Guild Wars the elder dragons weren't just some toss in "bad" monsters. They were/are "primordial creatures" on this planet, long before any humanoid races were walking around.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Eternal_Alchemy

    "The Eternal Alchemy is the common deistic ideology of the Asuran view on the world, the Mists, and all life. The belief states that all things and events are part of a greater scheme of existence and that even the Human Gods, the Spirits of the Wild, and other deities are a part of this grand scheme as mere cogs, albeit larger ones. Although the Asura do not know where this scheme will lead, they strive to figure out the Eternal Alchemy and its secrets."

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_All

    "The All, also referred to as the Antikytheria, is a symbolic representation of the world of Tyria as a machine with various moving parts. Those who have seen it describe it synonymously with the Eternal Alchemy.

    The All is depicted as a grand mechanism moving around a central body. Some, including Scarlet Briar and the Pact Commander, have interpreted this central body to be the Pale Tree,[1][4] although it is more commonly interpreted to be Tyria itself.[3] Orbiting this central body are six large bodies (interpreted as the Elder Dragons or spirit realms), existing in primal symbiosis."

    The current story fits perfectly with the lore and legends...

  • Slowpokeking.8720Slowpokeking.8720 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2020

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Actually, it added a lot of depth and creativity to the world and story, but you don't seem to appreciate it. I'm sure you'd prefer the story to revolve around some form of the typical "knight in shining armor that slays all dragons because they are bad" plot that we've seen in stories a thousand times over.

    It added nothing other than a contradicted motive against the heroes.

    Right now the plot is "knight in shining armor that slays dragons because they are bad and let the good dragon get power". The story is worse than before because such plot could get bored quicker than the old forumla.

  • @Swagger.1459 said:
    @Slowpokeking.8720

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Elder_Dragon

    "The Elder Dragons are primordial creatures dating back before the time of the Giganticus Lupicus and long before the arrival of the gods in Tyria."

    Even in Guild Wars the elder dragons weren't just some toss in "bad" monsters. They were/are "primordial creatures" on this planet, long before any humanoid races were walking around.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Eternal_Alchemy

    "The Eternal Alchemy is the common deistic ideology of the Asuran view on the world, the Mists, and all life. The belief states that all things and events are part of a greater scheme of existence and that even the Human Gods, the Spirits of the Wild, and other deities are a part of this grand scheme as mere cogs, albeit larger ones. Although the Asura do not know where this scheme will lead, they strive to figure out the Eternal Alchemy and its secrets."

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_All

    "The All, also referred to as the Antikytheria, is a symbolic representation of the world of Tyria as a machine with various moving parts. Those who have seen it describe it synonymously with the Eternal Alchemy.

    The All is depicted as a grand mechanism moving around a central body. Some, including Scarlet Briar and the Pact Commander, have interpreted this central body to be the Pale Tree,[1][4] although it is more commonly interpreted to be Tyria itself.[3] Orbiting this central body are six large bodies (interpreted as the Elder Dragons or spirit realms), existing in primal symbiosis."

    The current story fits perfectly with the lore and legends...

    None of this add anything to the plot. The dragons are still bad, other than if you kill them the world will explode there is nothing new.

    It's like SC2 whitewash Overmind to fight some bigger bad, it didn't add anything to the story other than making it worse..

  • @Swagger.1459 said:
    I know, if you prefer the " I am hero, must kill dragons" then you may not like this direction. However, some of us actually appreciate the unique story and different angle with dragons. And the fact that the story has us as part of bigger, and super important, things happening around them, much like we as humans are today part of big things, and not the big things.

    Wake up, right now it's still " I am hero, must kill dragons", nothing changed other than you have to let another dragon take the replacement.

    What different angle with dragons? All the Elder Dragons other than Aurene are still big bad who wanted to consume living and magic. Including Kralkatorrik, some ration deep inside him doesn't change anything he had done.

    You still need to kill them. Nothing has changed other than introducing some new dragons to do the replacement. And these dragons could easily become Mary Sues and very hard to handle after their replacement plot is done.

  • @Swagger.1459 said:
    Yeah? How would you have made the story better?

    I'm not saying all the dragons must be bad in all stories, but GW2 or since GW1 EotN has already made them as the big bad by trying to consume everything and corrupt everything they could.

    Since Anet have settled the tone, trying to turn it around simply for plot twist is not going to do anything good.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Yeah? How would you have made the story better?

    I'm not saying all the dragons must be bad in all stories, but GW2 or since GW1 EotN has already made them as the big bad by trying to consume everything and corrupt everything they could.

    Since Anet have settled the tone, trying to turn it around simply for plot twist is not going to do anything good.

    That doesn't answer how you would have made the story better... The dragons were obviously part of tyria before humanoids, so they have the right to be here. Maybe the reason for tyria is because of these creatures... They also have ties to the very make-up of the world and magics. So what do you do instead?

  • Slowpokeking.8720Slowpokeking.8720 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2020

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    That doesn't answer how you would have made the story better... The dragons were obviously part of tyria before humanoids, so they have the right to be here. Maybe the reason for tyria is because of these creatures... They also have ties to the very make-up of the world and magics. So what do you do instead?

    I simply would NOT try to make it biting its own tail. Not by inserting "you kill more dragon the world will explode" dumb plot.

    It doesn't mean they have the rights to destroy and corrupt everything they have seen. The dragons don't just corrupt and kill humanoids, they corrupt nearly everything, including animals, plants or even terrains of their domain.

  • This is also a major reason that why the dragons are not good at "wiping out and reset the world" tool or part of the nature cycle to not kill.

    1. They are not just against civilization, they are against all living, even plants and elementals.
    2. They don't just destroy, they corrupt the place and creatures into a unnatural state and make part of the world their domain.

    They were designed to be world level threat, trying to twist it in middle of the story would only break the consistency.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2020

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    This is also a major reason that why the dragons are not good at "wiping out and reset the world" tool or part of the nature cycle to not kill.

    1. They are not just against civilization, they are against all living, even plants and elementals.
    2. They don't just destroy, they corrupt the place and creatures into a unnatural state and make part of the world their domain.

    They were designed to be world level threat, trying to twist it in middle of the story would only break the consistency.

    Dragons are "primordial creatures" and more important than you think they are in this story. I know you want them to be expendable creatures, but they are not. You may not appreciate the story, but it's refreshing considering most dragon related stories are the ones you like. You want 1 dimensional "dragon bad, kill dragon" as your consistency, but some are tired of it.

  • Slowpokeking.8720Slowpokeking.8720 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2020

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Dragons are "primordial creatures" and more important than you think they are in this story. I know you want them to be expendable creature, but they are not. You may not appreciate the story, but it's refreshing considering most dragon related stories are the ones you like.

    Yeah they are the main villains, that's a huge role.

    They are still expandable, you just need another replacement for them. They are designed that way to against all livings and all good stuff, so it's not a good idea to change it midstory. It's even easier to get tired with replacement and the replacement story isn't really amazing. We already saw it once in GW1 Nightfall.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2020

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Dragons are "primordial creatures" and more important than you think they are in this story. I know you want them to be expendable creature, but they are not. You may not appreciate the story, but it's refreshing considering most dragon related stories are the ones you like.

    Yeah they are the main villains, that's a huge role.

    They are still expandable, you just need another replacement for them. They are designed that way to against all livings and all good stuff, so it's not a good idea to change it midstory. It's even easier to get tired with replacement and the replacement story isn't really amazing. We already saw it once in GW1 Nightfall.

    And those villains are the original creatures of the planet. And without those villians for the balance of nature and magics it all goes poof... That in itself is a compelling and interesting story to tell and go through of "what do you do?" that you don't consider or appreciate. You just think it's "stupid", because you can't see beyond your "good guy kill bad guy" story without variation... Not very imaginative of you.

  • @Swagger.1459 said:
    And those villains are the original creatures of the planet. And without those villians for the balance of nature and magics it all goes poof... That in itself is a compelling and interesting story to tell and go through of "what do you do?" that you don't consider or appreciate. You just think it's "stupid", because you can't see beyond your "good guy kill bad guy" story without variation... Not very imaginative of you.

    So what? It doesn't mean they have any rights to kill others.

    They are not balancing, they are abusing their power to corrupt everything freaking thing they met. Those corrupted domain like the dragonbrand had nothing to do with nature at all. Not to say hordes of Risen zombies being animated from dead.

    Anet simply insert this into PoF to give us a reason stop Balathazar from killing them. What do we do? We still kill the dragons, only with a replacement, understand it. It's still "good guy kill bad guy" other than "you need a good guy as replacment" and "Those corruption against all livings are natural balance" garbage.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You are mentally stick in 1 dimension. The universe doesn’t revolve around your character. You think in micro, not macro terms. You should actually read more of the background and ponder things.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Sue how?
    Dragons, or at least Elder Dragons, are considered to be legendary beings, and Aurene is just growing up to fill her role in life.

    And besides, the only "sue" moment is her conviniently eating Joko for his revival magic, but that can be forgiven since she has saw her death coming and had to take precautions and follow through with eating Joko.

    My only gripe is that she grew too fast during Season 4 but I guess that can't be helped since the Devs already built Kralk up to be such a huge threat, but even so she didn't "1v1 Kralk", she had the entire Pact hammering Kralk from the outside while she, the Commander and Co. went for the heart.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • XenoSpyro.1780XenoSpyro.1780 Member ✭✭✭

    OP should just stop playing the game.

  • @Swagger.1459 said:
    You are mentally stick in 1 dimension. The universe doesn’t revolve around your character. You think in micro, not macro terms. You should actually read more of the background and ponder things.

    Again, the EDs are still pretty much 1 dimensional monsters.

  • Slowpokeking.8720Slowpokeking.8720 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2020

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    Sue how?
    Dragons, or at least Elder Dragons, are considered to be legendary beings, and Aurene is just growing up to fill her role in life.

    Legendary world threats. Like we don't need some other dragons to continue Zhaitan's campaign of spreading death.

    And besides, the only "sue" moment is her conviniently eating Joko for his revival magic, but that can be forgiven since she has saw her death coming and had to take precautions and follow through with eating Joko.

    And now she's Elder Dragon, what are you gong to do then. Also she could use all other magic without having trouble, not even the legendary Kralkatorrik could do it with out huge pain and losing mind.

    More importantly, are you going to introduce more dragons like her to be the replacement of the remaining dragons? Because it's gonna easily become repetitive. Nor do they have the setup like her.

    Or bind all the magic to Aurene to make her a super Sue?

  • Slowpokeking.8720Slowpokeking.8720 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2020

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    A sue only becomes a sue when they are posed with challenges and effortlessly overcomes them without any character growth.

    Or they simply have super advantage like Aurene without trouble with different magic.

    Aurene has had some growth, and she didn't effortlessly overcome every single obstacle, and she is also choosing to sit out of the upcoming one due to how Elder Dragons are being viewed and wished not to make a negative impact with her presence.

    Just because she holds so much power doesn't mean she is a sue.

    But she still have huge advantage even compare to other Elder Dragons. She didn't even have the weakness Kralkatorrik had.

    And Jormag may be stronger than her, does that make Jormag a sue? Does that make Balthazar a sue? Does this make every single one of the non present gods a sue?

    Power =/= sue
    Dealing with problems all ezpz with no effort = a sue.

    Too much good setting of power without enough backfire does make a character Sue. Especially when others are far behind you.
    Balthazar and Jormag are both foes, they are big bad villains to pose threat for us to defeat, and both of them have weakness. But Aurene is on our side and got no weakness, she could even come back to life with a huge blast on the face by Kralkatorrik without much injury.

    Aurene doesn't have problem with different magic, and she could absorb a big Elder Dragon's power without paying any debt, how is it not Sueish? Even if it's not, she will be when it happens more than once.

    Aurene could have the power of the entire universe but if she doesn't just shoo da woop all her troubles away, I won't count her as a sue.

    That's going to be huge Sue if there is no burden of her power, especially compare to the mighty Elder Dragons.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So far it's fine aside from 1 or 2 nitpicks..

    Having the Dragons become more than raging monsters does make them more interesting as well as puts the plot in a better direction other than "Dat thing Evil stab it!!"

    However I don't want to see Aurine become this Sue as you said who can replace them all.
    We've 3 dragons left to kill and kill them we have no choice in the matter, but we also can't kill them because they play a vital role in The All which is the whole reason we went after Balthazar in PoF.

    So we have to kill them to save the world but we can't kill them or we'll destroy the world.
    Add to that there are no more known Scions to use to replace them so atm we're in a pretty tough situation until we can work something out that will allow us to replace them.
    I really hope Aruine isn't going to just become the answer to this problem either as that would be a really poor story.. much like the whole "I eats da Lich so I no dies" thing which I still dislike as an excuse, specially considering Lich's are almost as absent lore in this franchise as the DSD is

    What they are going to do with Jormag is anyones guess atm but I have a feeling it aint dying anytime soon and chances are we might just have to bite the bullet and enter some kind of distrustful truce with it until we deal with that so called "threat on the horizon" that Jormag warned us about and that we would "Need!" it's help against.
    With expansion 3 confirmed then there's a good possibility that the solution for this threat and maybe even Jormag will be found in Cantha and the next expansion could possibly set us up for 2 Elder Dragon deaths/replacements in the same release.. There were two uncorrupted Dragons over there back in Gw1 which some believe might be candidates for new Elders in Gw2 so who knows.. just gotta wait and see.

    Frankly I rather enjoy the idea of showing up in Cantha with 2 Elder Dragons.. bet the Dragon Empire would soil themselves XD

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    So far it's fine aside from 1 or 2 nitpicks..

    Having the Dragons become more than raging monsters does make them more interesting as well as puts the plot in a better direction other than "Dat thing Evil stab it!!"

    However I don't want to see Aurine become this Sue as you said who can replace them all.
    We've 3 dragons left to kill and kill them we have no choice in the matter, but we also can't kill them because they play a vital role in The All which is the whole reason we went after Balthazar in PoF.

    So we have to kill them to save the world but we can't kill them or we'll destroy the world.
    Add to that there are no more known Scions to use to replace them so atm we're in a pretty tough situation until we can work something out that will allow us to replace them.
    I really hope Aruine isn't going to just become the answer to this problem either as that would be a really poor story.. much like the whole "I eats da Lich so I no dies" thing which I still dislike as an excuse, specially considering Lich's are almost as absent lore in this franchise as the DSD is

    What they are going to do with Jormag is anyones guess atm but I have a feeling it aint dying anytime soon and chances are we might just have to bite the bullet and enter some kind of distrustful truce with it until we deal with that so called "threat on the horizon" that Jormag warned us about and that we would "Need!" it's help against.
    With expansion 3 confirmed then there's a good possibility that the solution for this threat and maybe even Jormag will be found in Cantha and the next expansion could possibly set us up for 2 Elder Dragon deaths/replacements in the same release.. There were two uncorrupted Dragons over there back in Gw1 which some believe might be candidates for new Elders in Gw2 so who knows.. just gotta wait and see.

    Frankly I rather enjoy the idea of showing up in Cantha with 2 Elder Dragons.. bet the Dragon Empire would soil themselves XD

    Why do you think Balthazar went after the Elder Dragons?

  • @Stephen.6312 said:
    Why do you think Balthazar went after the Elder Dragons?

    because, just as OP, he was unable to get beyond the precept of "dragonz bad must kill" ;)

  • @Teratus.2859 said:
    So far it's fine aside from 1 or 2 nitpicks..

    Having the Dragons become more than raging monsters does make them more interesting as well as puts the plot in a better direction other than "Dat thing Evil stab it!!"

    No they are not just raging monsters. Jormag has been a manipulative jerk from the beginning, Zhaitan and Mordremoth are both intelligent as well. Right now they are still pretty much the same other than Kralkatorrik had some ration inside him, but that's all.

    And make the dragons more interesting doesn't mean you have to add the "can't kill".

  • Slowpokeking.8720Slowpokeking.8720 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2020

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    Why do you think Balthazar went after the Elder Dragons?

    because, just as OP, he was unable to get beyond the precept of "dragonz bad must kill" ;)

    We still kill dragons, just got to find a replacement before that.

    The dragons are bad because they have destroyed so much. They want to kill us first.

  • Terra.9506Terra.9506 Member ✭✭

    I'm kind of Agreed with OP, once we kill all bad dragon Aurene would get all the power and now the entire world only in her mercy...

  • Again, it's not we want to kill dragons, it's the dragons want to kill us.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    The elder dragons as Eldritch beings bound to a cosmic mechanism isn't stupid. It just makes it impossible for the PC to hold the ultimate role. From your comments Slowpokeking, it seems as though that is your actual complaint. We no longer have a reliable, dull, power fantasy that the PC can climb to the ultimate peak. The plot you want is the equivalent to playing wack-a-mole until there are no more moles. I want a story about the whole kitten carnival. We can still kill the bad Elder Dragons, but it will take longer and need more set up. We may even be on a journey to change how the All is configured; we could defeat the evil Elder dragons and ensure the end of Elder beings and the risk they pose. The main difference I can find between the OP's plot preference and what we have is there is less smoke available to blow up the PC's behind with the plot we have.

    That being said, Aurene keeps playing chicken with the definition of a Sue. We are told her physiology makes her resistant to magic dissonance but her physiology is also a coincidence. Has the problem always been the lack of crystal dragons? That would be a very weak way to resolve the dilemma of the All. You could make the argument that being raised by mortals changed her physiology but not without making her physiology plastic and less reliable. I don't agree that using Lich magic to explain her resurrection was lore breaking or 'wrong' but it was handled so flippantly that it became Suzy.

    I also agree that if we take the All dilemma seriously, then replacing the current Elder dragons with nice Elder dragons or just Nicest Aurene is a weak resolution. The All dilemma describes the trope that power corrupts and absolute/cosmic power corrupts absolutely/cosmically. The All mechanizes this trope, the more magic or power flows through an Elder dragon, the more likely they are to be corrupted. An Elder dragon may not be evil, wanting to kill mortals, but just pathologically fixated on efficient cycling of magic. Mortals just aren't important to them. The All may be completely responsible for their pathological personalities.

    I want the All dilemma to make the plot more complex and I want the resolution of the dilemma to be complex enough to offer a genuine resolution. I think the financial crisis of 2008 is a great analogy for the All dilemma. The necessary cycling of magic is the necessary cycling of money. The six sphere All configuration is the too big to fail configuration of financial institutions. Sticking with six spheres but making sure they are filled with nice dragons is a Dodd-Frank approach that doesn't change the too big too fail configuration. Using just Aurene is the equivalent of replacing all financial institutions with one institution. This approach maximizes the risk of failure and the demand that Aurene be perfect or a Sue. I am hoping for a more aggressive resolution to the power corrupts and too big to fail tropes and those resolutions exist.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • @Psientist.6437 said:
    The elder dragons as Eldritch beings bound to a cosmic mechanism isn't stupid. It just makes it impossible for the PC to hold the ultimate role. From your comments Slowpokeking, it seems as though that is your actual complaint. We no longer have a reliable, dull, power fantasy that the PC can climb to the ultimate peak. The plot you want is the equivalent to playing wack-a-mole until there are no more moles. I want a story about the whole kitten carnival. We can still kill the bad Elder Dragons, but it will take longer and need more set up. We may even be on a journey to change how the All is configured; we could defeat the evil Elder dragons and ensure the end of Elder beings and the risk they pose. The main difference I can find between the OP's plot preference and what we have is there is less smoke available to blow up the PC's behind with the plot we have.

    No it's not the point, actually the change had made the dragons even weaker.

    Primordus and Jormag almost both got killed simply because the machine turned their power against each other. Kralkatorrik even needed us to save them. The changed had added nothing good to the dragons.

    An Elder dragon may not be evil, wanting to kill mortals, but just pathologically fixated on efficient cycling of magic. Mortals just aren't important to them. The All may be completely responsible for their pathological personalities.

    >

    But it's not the case, other than DSD not being clear, all dragons were designed to be evil world threat. It's how they were designed to be, it cause bigger problem if you try to turn it in the middle of the story.

  • Slowpokeking.8720Slowpokeking.8720 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2020

    It's not "I want to kill the dragon", it's the "Elder Dragons have been corrupting and killing everything ever since their awakening and posing a HUGE threat against all livings including our player race", which forcing us to kill them.

    Trying to change it just made the story biting its own tail because it pretty much twisted the tone of the previous installment of heroes saving the world by defeating the dragons.

    So our GW1 character was wrong to oppose the Great Destroyer?
    The EoD was wrong to kill dragon champions like the Dragonspawn?
    The Sea of Sorrows characters was wrong to fight Zhaitan's navy?
    It was wrong to forge the vigil or the Pact?
    Our PC was wrong to kill Zhaitan and Mordremoth?

    It just did a huge slap in the face against our previous story and made bad excuse for so many innocent lives died in the dragons' hands.

    Nor does it offer any reasonable solution to the story other than "the replacement" which could easily go boring and Sueish.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    So far it's fine aside from 1 or 2 nitpicks..

    Having the Dragons become more than raging monsters does make them more interesting as well as puts the plot in a better direction other than "Dat thing Evil stab it!!"

    No they are not just raging monsters. Jormag has been a manipulative jerk from the beginning, Zhaitan and Mordremoth are both intelligent as well. Right now they are still pretty much the same other than Kralkatorrik had some ration inside him, but that's all.

    And make the dragons more interesting doesn't mean you have to add the "can't kill".

    Jormag has been manipulative yes but ultimately still followed the same path of destroy/corrupt everything despite that.. to most Norn and other Mortals Jormag isnt much different than the others.

    Dragon intelligence is also a relatively new concept to mortals.. most don't see them as anything more than destroyers and Mordremoth wasn't even known until Scarlet woke it up.
    Even then Mordy was all Consume the world despite his intelligence and the same for Zhaitan who despite being capable of military like strategy was still hell bent on consuming everything.. much like Kralkatorrik.
    The only difference was their methods, abilities and power.

    Jormag is ultimately the first Dragon who has broken trend and decided to reach out and recognize mortals as both a threat and a potential ally or tool that demands some level of respect.
    Had we not 3 Dead Dragons and a God under our belt, not to mention an Elder Dragon for an ally then chances are it wouldn't care about us at all and wouldn't be trying to build some kind of relationship with us outside of the usual seduction to corruption tactics it's known for.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:
    Jormag has been manipulative yes but ultimately still followed the same path of destroy/corrupt everything despite that.. to most Norn and other Mortals Jormag isnt much different than the others.

    Yes it is still doing the same right now. It was manipulating us by sending whispers and using Drakkar to empower itself.

    Dragon intelligence is also a relatively new concept to mortals.. most don't see them as anything more than destroyers and Mordremoth wasn't even known until Scarlet woke it up.
    Even then Mordy was all Consume the world despite his intelligence and the same for Zhaitan who despite being capable of military like strategy was still hell bent on consuming everything.. much like Kralkatorrik.
    The only difference was their methods, abilities and power.

    Yeah because it was how they were designed to be, and they were still doing it. Kralkatorrik was trying to consume everything in LW4

    Jormag is ultimately the first Dragon who has broken trend and decided to reach out and recognize mortals as both a threat and a potential ally or tool that demands some level of respect.

    No, it had been manipulating Svanir and countless others before its awakening. It's pretty much doing the same thing right now. Using Almmora's voice to lure us, trying to break Ryland and Rytlock.

    It's pretty much doing what it had been doing from the beginning: Seduce and manipulating mortals, using them to reach its goal.

    Had we not 3 Dead Dragons and a God under our belt, not to mention an Elder Dragon for an ally then chances are it wouldn't care about us at all and wouldn't be trying to build some kind of relationship with us outside of the usual seduction to corruption tactics it's known for.

    Yes we killed 3 dragons, but the rest of them are still harassing and corrupting the world. Jormag is still doing evil stuff like it has been doing for hundreds of years. A large part of Norn/Racial Sympathy quests have to do with fighting Jormag's scheme.

    You can't simply say "Hey let's retcon all of those and make Jormag a good guy, even though it's still doing bad stuff", it's a direct slap in the face of previous GW lore, since Svanir and Jora's story.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    Post the discovery of the All dilemma, Elder dragons hold a more powerful position. They can now hold the fate of the world ransom. Their physical ability to prevent their death hasn't changed but they have gained a strategic advantage.

    Obviousally the tone has changed but the change hardly comes as a 'smack in the face' or a destructive twisting of our goals. Of course it isn't wrong to defend Tyria and mortals. We still must defeat the remaining Elder dragons. Now they are more powerful and more of a threat than ever before. Do you think we will resolve the All dilemma and the Elder dragon threat by explaining that some people just have to die for the sake of the All? Make Tyria great again by making every Tyrian for themselves?

    Face it Slowpokeking, your problem is with changing how the power fantasy is resolved. You want a simple resolution where the heroes gain power and defeat dragons with no power or responsibility left over to be distributed. Only fame is left over to distribute. This resolution is boring and just as vulnerable to Suziness. The only real difference with adding the All dilemma is this resolution becomes impossible.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • @Psientist.6437 said:
    Face it Slowpokeking, your problem is with changing how the power fantasy is resolved. You want a simple resolution where the heroes gain power and defeat dragons with no power or responsibility left over to be distributed. Only fame is left over to distribute.

    Actually it's not my desire, it's how Anet has been writing the dragon story for so long.

    They were made to be EVIL world threat from EotN. They took countless lives and everything had been telling us: Your destiny is to fight the dragons and bring peace again.

    This resolution is boring and just as vulnerable to Suziness. The only real difference with adding the All dilemma is this resolution becomes impossible.

    And saving the dragon, then kill it to replace it isn't boring? If you really compare, Zhaitan's plot was much better than Kralkatorrik's other than the final dragon fight. It's much more complete, involving far many more NPCs and had touching sacrifices.

  • @Psientist.6437 said:
    Post the discovery of the All dilemma, Elder dragons hold a more powerful position. They can now hold the fate of the world ransom. Their physical ability to prevent their death hasn't changed but they have gained a strategic advantage.

    Obviousally the tone has changed but the change hardly comes as a 'smack in the face' or a destructive twisting of our goals. Of course it isn't wrong to defend Tyria and mortals. We still must defeat the remaining Elder dragons. Now they are more powerful and more of a threat than ever before. Do you think we will resolve the All dilemma and the Elder dragon threat by explaining that some people just have to die for the sake of the All? Make Tyria great again by making every Tyrian for themselves?

    Face it Slowpokeking, your problem is with changing how the power fantasy is resolved. You want a simple resolution where the heroes gain power and defeat dragons with no power or responsibility left over to be distributed. Only fame is left over to distribute. This resolution is boring and just as vulnerable to Suziness. The only real difference with adding the All dilemma is this resolution becomes impossible.

    Let's break it:

    EotN's epilogue

    Ogden Stonehealer: "And the greatest threat of all was yet to come."
    Ogden Stonehealer: "A threat that would consume the entire world."
    Ogden Stonehealer: "And call upon the greatest of heroes."
    Ogden Stonehealer: "The children of the legends.
    

    The three novels:
    GoA: Getting the Claw to help unite the Charr/humans to fight the dragons.
    EoD: How they fight dragons.
    SoS: How they unite to fight Zhaitan's navy.

    Nearly the whole vanilla GW2 pact plot is about fighting and kill Zhaitan, if you don't you die. a large part of the pre pact quests are about fighting dragons.

    It's not I want to do it, it's the tone GW2 has been setting upon.

    It's pretty much like SW trying to make Palpatine and the Empire "can't be wiped or it will cause the galaxy to explode" in the middle, 99% of the time it would destroy the story.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    How are Elder dragons less of a threat or less 'evil'? You keep saying the All dilemma makes them so but I don't see how that works. The Elder dragons are now more dangerous. The All dilemma forces us to change our approach to overcoming their danger. That hardly qualifies as a slap in the face or the studio committing a breach of agreement or intent. We still need to defeat Elder dragons. Why are you claiming that requirement has changed? Why does changing our strategy mean abandoning any strategy?

    If the fate of Palpatine and the galaxy were linked then 99.99% we would discover a way to break that link, change the system, or a new Emperor less intent on carnage. There are countless, exciting stories about eliminating bad guys in positions of power and changing the system to make bad guys in positions of power less likely. Stop acting like what the studio is doing is baffling or fated to inadequacy. They are simply trying to tackle the power vacuum frequently caused by resolving the power fantasy. That power vacuum is realistic, killing Palpatine caused a power vacuum. The studio is trying to show us a bigger, richer, more realistic picture of Tyria and it is making you angry. Be honest, is it the power left over, the need for a Kormir, that is making you angry?

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Slowpokeking.8720Slowpokeking.8720 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2020

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    How are Elder dragons less of a threat or less 'evil'? You keep saying the All dilemma makes them so but I don't see how that works. The Elder dragons are now more dangerous.

    Thus you agree that the plot had added nothing upon the dragon's depth, good.

    The All dilemma forces us to change our approach to overcoming their danger. That hardly qualifies as a slap in the face or the studio committing a breach of agreement or intent. We still need to defeat Elder dragons. Why are you claiming that requirement has changed? Why does changing our strategy mean abandoning any strategy?

    Of course it slapped us on the face, it means that our previous fights against the dragons were actually damaging Tyria, especially killing Zhaitan and Mordremoth.

    Especially in the last few quests of Zhaitan. It's made clear that you NEED to kill it to end its tyranny and the corruption of Orr's magic.

    Mordremoth also showed to be a huge threat which you are forced to kill the former marshal to end its life.

    Then all of sudden, all these had become that "you are damaging Tyria by killing dragon and break balance"?

    kitten is this?

    If the fate of Palpatine and the galaxy were linked then 99.99% we would discover a way to break that link, change the system, or a new Emperor less intent on carnage. There are countless, exciting stories about eliminating bad guys in positions of power and changing the system to make bad guys in positions of power less likely. Stop acting like what the studio is doing is baffling or fated to inadequacy. They are simply trying to tackle the power vacuum frequently caused by resolving the power fantasy. That power vacuum is realistic, killing Palpatine caused a power vacuum.

    You know why SW didn't try it? Because it will cause the story to become inconsistent, nor would the "find a new emperor" work 99% of the time without seem forced or even contradicting early stuff. Especially if there is "no even though Palpatine is bad and wanted to kill us all, you need to save him".

    The studio is trying to show us a bigger, richer, more realistic picture of Tyria and it is making you angry. Be honest, is it the power left over,

    Lol, putting "balance of the world" on "world consuming monster who only care about corrupt and kill everything" doesn't make anything bigger, richer or more realistic.

    Face it, the dragons were not designed to be such thing, putting them into it in the middle of the story only ruin everything.

    the need for a Kormir, that is making you angry?

    Wrong.

    The Six Gods were not designed to be all evil world ending threat from the beginning unlike the dragons. Even Abaddon wasn't evil at first, it's more like he was having a different idea than the rest. They are entities with their own thoughts, just like we humans. Thus a new god replacement makes a lot of sense.

    Kormir's plot didn't involve us to save a world destroying Abaddon, thus making him more powerful and caused a huge problem to the world as well.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Jormag has been manipulative yes but ultimately still followed the same path of destroy/corrupt everything despite that.. to most Norn and other Mortals Jormag isnt much different than the others.

    Yes it is still doing the same right now. It was manipulating us by sending whispers and using Drakkar to empower itself.

    Yes but it only did this to select candidates, for the most part it sent icebrood to attack and slaughter everything and remained silent to most mortals.
    Hence contributing to the Dragon being no different to the others in terms of a being bent on destruction and nothing else.
    Jormag speaking to us and many others on a larger scale is a very recent occurance and only happening because it recognizes what we have achieved in recent years.

    Jormag is ultimately the first Dragon who has broken trend and decided to reach out and recognize mortals as both a threat and a potential ally or tool that demands some level of respect.

    No, it had been manipulating Svanir and countless others before its awakening. It's pretty much doing the same thing right now. Using Almmora's voice to lure us, trying to break Ryland and Rytlock.

    It's pretty much doing what it had been doing from the beginning: Seduce and manipulating mortals, using them to reach its goal.

    Not on this scale it hasn't, as I said above most interactions with Jormag has been through it's Icebrood attacks which are no different to any other Dragon Minion attack.
    Jormag never attempted to speak to us until we became someone worth speaking to.
    This is why until recently Jormag has been percieved by many mortals as just another Elder Dragon bent on nothing but destruction and it's Sons of Svanir have been seen as little more than foolish fanatics who are worshipping a false spirit.. one they call Dragon.
    Jormags current activity has been a more recent occurance, likely brought on by neccessity caused by the changing world it now finds itself in.
    Jormag is trying to adapt and prepare for some unknown threat on the horizon.. which is why it's become far more active and seeking to control as many minions/allies as it can.

    Had we not 3 Dead Dragons and a God under our belt, not to mention an Elder Dragon for an ally then chances are it wouldn't care about us at all and wouldn't be trying to build some kind of relationship with us outside of the usual seduction to corruption tactics it's known for.

    Yes we killed 3 dragons, but the rest of them are still harassing and corrupting the world. Jormag is still doing evil stuff like it has been doing for hundreds of years. A large part of Norn/Racial Sympathy quests have to do with fighting Jormag's scheme.

    Yeah and it never once spoke to us back then which is my point.
    Most of those encounters with Icebrood/sons were no different than encounters with Branded, Risen, Destroyers etc.
    It's why the perception of ED being little more than raging destroyers was a thing in the first place.

    You can't simply say "Hey let's retcon all of those and make Jormag a good guy, even though it's still doing bad stuff", it's a direct slap in the face of previous GW lore, since Svanir and Jora's story.

    That's not what Anet is doing.
    Jormag is just trying to adapt to a new world order for it's own survival.. it's not a good dragon and nobody believes it to be.
    It's argument isn't "hey im good now lets team up" its more "I am a neccessary evil and you need me"
    Nothing has changed about Jormag only our perception of it, same with Kralkatorrik who despite being a raging monster turned out to be more complicated.
    It's not a retcon or a slap in the face, they're just making their main antagonists more interesting and complex which is a good thing.
    Jormag has always been a manipulator just very selective about it.. now we finally get to explore this side of it rather than just dealing with same old same old minion raids which was more or less the only in game intereactions with it in the past.. Jormag was really no more complex than early perceptions of Zhaitan in the personal story because of this.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:
    Yes but it only did this to select candidates, for the most part it sent icebrood to attack and slaughter everything and remained silent to most mortals.
    Hence contributing to the Dragon being no different to the others in terms of a being bent on destruction and nothing else.
    Jormag speaking to us and many others on a larger scale is a very recent occurance and only happening because it recognizes what we have achieved in recent years.

    It spoke to ppl to seduce and use them.
    Jormag speaking to us is no different than it speaking to Svanir and other ppl, it was trying to deceive and use us.

    Not on this scale it hasn't, as I said above most interactions with Jormag has been through it's Icebrood attacks which are no different to any other Dragon Minion attack.

    It has, it spoke to Svanir through Drakkar and others

    Jormag never attempted to speak to us until we became someone worth speaking to.

    It simply spoke to us to manipulative us.

    This is why until recently Jormag has been percieved by many mortals as just another Elder Dragon bent on nothing but destruction and it's Sons of Svanir have been seen as little more than foolish fanatics who are worshipping a false spirit.. one they call Dragon.

    Again, Jormag has been doing the same thing, trying to fool us and use us.

    Jormags current activity has been a more recent occurance, likely brought on by neccessity caused by the changing world it now finds itself in.

    Jormag's recent activity:
    Using corrupted spirits to make minions and attack ppl.
    Trying to break and lure ppl

    It has been doing such thing for so many years.

    Jormag is trying to adapt and prepare for some unknown threat on the horizon.. which is why it's become far more active and seeking to control as many minions/allies as it can.

    By keep attacking ppl and trying to break ppl, yeah that's something new. You truly believe its lies?

    Yeah and it never once spoke to us back then which is my point.
    Most of those encounters with Icebrood/sons were no different than encounters with Branded, Risen, Destroyers etc.
    It's why the perception of ED being little more than raging destroyers was a thing in the first place.

    But it spoke to many others before, since Svanir. It simply spoke ppl to break them and use them.

    That's not what Anet is doing.
    Jormag is just trying to adapt to a new world order for it's own survival.. it's not a good dragon and nobody believes it to be.

    No, it's more likely trying to deceive us through lies.

    It's argument isn't "hey im good now lets team up" its more "I am a neccessary evil and you need me"

    But the story failed to show it. We are still fighting it, breaking its scheme.

    The world has been totally fine without Jormag's meddling, actually it was much better before that. Jormag even destroyed landscape through its blizzard, you say it's just doing nature cycle?

    Nothing has changed about Jormag only our perception of it, same with Kralkatorrik who despite being a raging monster turned out to be more complicated.

    Yeah, so why add the "dragon replacement" garbage?

    It's not a retcon or a slap in the face, they're just making their main antagonists more interesting and complex which is a good thing.

    It is, they are trying to make our past good doing into "you are damaging the world by killing dragons".

    Jormag has always been a manipulator just very selective about it.. now we finally get to explore this side of it rather than just dealing with same old same old minion raids which was more or less the only in game intereactions with it in the past.. Jormag was really no more complex than early perceptions of Zhaitan in the personal story because of this.

    It is a big evil manipulator, exploring it has nothing to do with dragon replacement and killing it or not.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    Why do you think Balthazar went after the Elder Dragons?

    because, just as OP, he was unable to get beyond the precept of "dragonz bad must kill" ;)

    Lol. I thought you might have something else for me.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Yes but it only did this to select candidates, for the most part it sent icebrood to attack and slaughter everything and remained silent to most mortals.
    Hence contributing to the Dragon being no different to the others in terms of a being bent on destruction and nothing else.
    Jormag speaking to us and many others on a larger scale is a very recent occurance and only happening because it recognizes what we have achieved in recent years.

    It spoke to ppl to seduce and use them.
    Jormag speaking to us is no different than it speaking to Svanir and other ppl, it was trying to deceive and use us.

    Not on this scale it hasn't, as I said above most interactions with Jormag has been through it's Icebrood attacks which are no different to any other Dragon Minion attack.

    It has, it spoke to Svanir through Drakkar and others

    Those were limited cases, Now Jormag is speaking to entire armies of soldiers at the same time.
    Basically every living thing within it's reach it is now speaking too and attempting to manipulate and corrupt where as before it would only speak to a chosen few and would slaughter most people using it's Icebrood instead.
    Now that it needs allies and numbers against another threat it's manipulating more and slaughtering less.

    Yeah and it never once spoke to us back then which is my point.
    Most of those encounters with Icebrood/sons were no different than encounters with Branded, Risen, Destroyers etc.
    It's why the perception of ED being little more than raging destroyers was a thing in the first place.

    But it spoke to many others before, since Svanir. It simply spoke ppl to break them and use them.

    Again, not on this scale it didn't, not even close.
    Most people who have encoutered icebrood have never heard Jormags voice.
    The Vigil etc we see now suffering Jormags voice in Jora's Keep have been in this region of the world for years and Jormag speaking to them has only started happening fairly recently and both Jormag and Drakkar have been in the exact same place for years.

    That's not what Anet is doing.
    Jormag is just trying to adapt to a new world order for it's own survival.. it's not a good dragon and nobody believes it to be.

    No, it's more likely trying to deceive us through lies.

    More like trying to use us and Aurine to serve it's own agenda.
    Point is Jormag cannot rely on it's own strength against this unknown threat and it knows that, that's why it's talking to us and trying to manipulate us while also talking to mortals on a mass scale and trying to corrupt them.
    It needs us and it's trying to make us believe that we need it as well.

    It's argument isn't "hey im good now lets team up" its more "I am a neccessary evil and you need me"

    But the story failed to show it. We are still fighting it, breaking its scheme.

    The world has been totally fine without Jormag's meddling, actually it was much better before that. Jormag even destroyed landscape through its blizzard, you say it's just doing nature cycle?

    The story did show that, Jormag literally told us we need it's help multiple times and we refused.
    We're still fighting Jormag and Jormag is still trying to seduce us to it's side rather than just kill us which it has had multiple opportunities to do.
    It will continue to do so because it needs us, our last encounter with it quite literally ended with "Don't worry. We will all talk to each other again soon. That I promise."

    Nothing has changed about Jormag only our perception of it, same with Kralkatorrik who despite being a raging monster turned out to be more complicated.

    Yeah, so why add the "dragon replacement" garbage?

    Because it makes the story more interesting than just stab the big bad thing..
    A main antagonist without an agenda, personality or motive is just a bad antagonist.. and the only thing worse than a bad antagonist is several of them.
    Anet want to tell a better story than that and most of us are glad they are.

    It's not a retcon or a slap in the face, they're just making their main antagonists more interesting and complex which is a good thing.

    It is, they are trying to make our past good doing into "you are damaging the world by killing dragons".

    No they're just highlighting our past ignorance.
    When a being of that kind of power is defeated there are often consequences, the Gods learned this lesson when they defeated Abaddon and his fall turned an entire ocean into a desert.
    The Charr devistated Ascalon with the Searing Cauldrons which took many years to recover.
    Vizier khilbron sank an entire continent to stop a Charr army and turned himself into a Lich.. likewise provided Zhaitan with an army when he woke up.
    Shiro unleashed a Jade Wind upon his death.
    Killing Dragons allows their powers to transfer to other Dragons and makes them more powerful.
    The White Mantle messed with a bloodstone and nearly eradicated a whole region.
    We killed a fallen God and supercharged an Elder Dragon with his magic.

    Actions having consequences has always been a thing with this franchise and it's a good thing that we screw up from time to time.
    Nobody wants to play a flawless perfect mary sue type character which a lot of people did feel like the Commander was for a good while in Gw2.
    Mary sues are boring and uninteresting, that's why people dislike them so much.