Do you think dungeon "level requirement" is kind of mislead? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Do you think dungeon "level requirement" is kind of mislead?

Do you think dungeon "level requirement" is kind of mislead. specialize for new player? Personally I think I have this issue since playing this game at launch where dungeon suppose to be end game content but the map it's locate and level requirement make it look like it can be done by low level/ low gear character let alone party that make up with inexperience player.

Caudecus manor for example, Some new player might want to try this content (and level 35 isn't that hard to get) but what happen when they found out even the best gear at their level can't even scratched the first bandit they meet and get one shot even on 1v1 fight. (and truly even the 80 gear didn't do much different since enemy balance in dungeon seem no exist in first place). Make me think this low dungeon only keep new player away from this content instead of draw them in.

Isn't it would better if we re-balance all these low level dungeon or at least put something to make it clear this content isn't for low level character/gear like it claim to be?

I understand this's old content dev might not want to brother anymore but I think this low level dungeon is very important to keep new player play the game.

All this just my opinion though.. what about you?

Comments

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2020

    The dungeon level requirements were fine. Dungeons were supposed to be the challenging PvE content before fractals came to be.
    The problem these days is how broken core professions have become because they were adjusted and in most cases nerfed to unviability (Guardian and Warrior are the only ones I'd play as core professions these days) to conform the power creep elite specs have introduced.

    Last time I looked, Caudecus Manor was level 40 for the story and level 45 for the explorable modes.

  • Terra.9506Terra.9506 Member ✭✭
    edited March 27, 2020

    Sorry for my mistake about Caudecus Manor level requirement but 45 still didn't much different consider even level 80 character with Ascend gear still take aged to bring down enemy in 1 on 1 fight let alone level 45 character/gear (when enemy hit like that have lv9000). It's even impossible to have a good fight in this content, seem like only way to complete is avoid all fight as possible which make other class other then thief useless.

    Even faction mob difficult is more reasonable.
    If I can do anything about dungeon I would nerf the low level one and add more lvl80+ dungeon as the real "Challenge" content.

  • If you need ages taking down a single mob with lvl 80 gear, you should probably check it.
    That being said, Dungeons are 5 man content and as such balanced for this. (More or less nowadays)
    I dont know why you use a 1v1 fight as an example. This simple isnt intended for dungeons.

  • Terra.9506Terra.9506 Member ✭✭
    edited March 27, 2020

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:
    If you need ages taking down a single mob with lvl 80 gear, you should probably check it.
    That being said, Dungeons are 5 man content and as such balanced for this. (More or less nowadays)
    I dont know why you use a 1v1 fight as an example. This simple isnt intended for dungeons.

    Because only thing that make this dungeon hard is enemy stat not mechanic or their pattern I didn't call this challenge, it's just bully.
    I'm fine with some stat boost for dungeon enemy but current one is ridiculous specialize their damage output. (I'd rater have them attack faster but deal less damage)

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Definitely challenging, but I remember doing them as I reached their required levels back on release and players have only gotten stronger since then. You even get better gear just from level up rewards now, back then it was getting really lucky or spending coin for some rare gear.

    I rather choose death.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2020

    Dungeons scale to your level or to be more precise, you scale to the dungeons level. Yes, level 80 characters do have more talents, skills and abilities available thus that level 80 is also only level 45, but that was never the issue.

    The issue with dungeons always has been:

    • they require proper stacking and knowledge of encounters
    • specific skills help a lot and might not be available to lower level characters (example reflect)
    • the way scaling works, it takes into account the color of your gear when scaling one down. Characters not at level 80 will likely not be in ideal on level gear, making them even weaker
    • nothing in the open world prepares players for dungeon gameplay
    • having no trinity in place needs a lot of getting used to, something not many players have done while leveling

    Otherwise from a design and scaling perspective, they are not that hard.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Party full of lvl45 players are indeed able to clear cadecus dungeon expl mode.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2020

    For me it is a mistake.

    As a long time dungeon runner I often poke fun at the fact that the first Boss in lv 35 Ascolonian catacombs - Spider Queen to be one of the hardest dungeon boss in this game.

    Why would anet introduce an boss that AMMBUSH with multiple large area condi pulsing damage coupled with frequent immobilize, coupled with large amount of minions that each does 4x ranged rapid physical damage plus condi, THEN add two flame turrets as the entry boss for an target audience that has only one traitline unlocked, is completely beyond me.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Fortunately, I think it'll be somewhat rare to run an explorable dungeon with a party full of learning players. More likely than not, the party will have a few Max level players willing to help, so it isn't that bad.

    In general scaling down does need looking at, a level 80 scaled down to... say, 35, shouldn't be more than 10~20% stronger than a real level 35, but as mentioned before, various factors come into play and it isn't so.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2020

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    For me it is a mistake.

    As a long time dungeon runner I often poke fun at the fact that the first Boss in lv 35 Ascolonian catacombs - Spider Queen to be one of the hardest dungeon boss in this game.

    Why would anet introduce an boss that AMMBUSH with multiple large area condi pulsing damage coupled with frequent immobilize, coupled with large amount of minions that each does 4x ranged rapid physical damage plus condi, THEN add two flame turrets as the entry boss for an target audience that has only one traitline unlocked, is completely beyond me.

    You can, or at least could so in the past, destroy the turrets.
    People also used stack in a corner on the queen and beat her in few minutes.
    Apparently, Arenanet didn't like how people cheesed their way through dungeon bosses and decided to overtune some of them.
    The spider wasn't always this atrocious.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    For me it is a mistake.

    As a long time dungeon runner I often poke fun at the fact that the first Boss in lv 35 Ascolonian catacombs - Spider Queen to be one of the hardest dungeon boss in this game.

    Why would anet introduce an boss that AMMBUSH with multiple large area condi pulsing damage coupled with frequent immobilize, coupled with large amount of minions that each does 4x ranged rapid physical damage plus condi, THEN add two flame turrets as the entry boss for an target audience that has only one traitline unlocked, is completely beyond me.

    When dungeons came out poison or burning didn't stack. Dmg from spider queen was a lot lower

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2020

    @Skotlex.7580 said:
    Fortunately, I think it'll be somewhat rare to run an explorable dungeon with a party full of learning players. More likely than not, the party will have a few Max level players willing to help, so it isn't that bad.

    In general scaling down does need looking at, a level 80 scaled down to... say, 35, shouldn't be more than 10~20% stronger than a real level 35, but as mentioned before, various factors come into play and it isn't so.

    Yeah downscaling is broken. Go to low lvl arena with max lvl character and your damage is still way too powerful mostly because you can stack raw dmg % mods and downscaling won't affect those.

    Lets take power DD for example: 5% dmg from scholar runes, 5% from sigil of force, 3% from sigil of impact, 2%-20% more damage from Exposed Weakness, 10% more damage against crippled foes and 52% or 59% dmg increase from other traits + some stat boosts aswell which will get downscaled tho.

    Those mods more or less increases your dmg 75-95% already plus you have way more critical hit chance, power and critical dmg than low lvl player aswell because you are most likely using ascended berzerker gear instead of some random low lvl armor with weird stats.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    For me it is a mistake.

    As a long time dungeon runner I often poke fun at the fact that the first Boss in lv 35 Ascolonian catacombs - Spider Queen to be one of the hardest dungeon boss in this game.

    Why would anet introduce an boss that AMMBUSH with multiple large area condi pulsing damage coupled with frequent immobilize, coupled with large amount of minions that each does 4x ranged rapid physical damage plus condi, THEN add two flame turrets as the entry boss for an target audience that has only one traitline unlocked, is completely beyond me.

    You can, or at least could so in the past, destroy the turrets.
    People also used stack in a corner on the queen and beat her in few minutes.
    Apparently, Arenanet didn't like how people cheesed their way through dungeon bosses and decided to overtune some of them.
    The spider wasn't always this atrocious.

    Yeah I know the history, which follows another joke that Anet made this adjustment to encourage new players to spread up, use range attack, and stay as far as they could, just to be massively kicked in the next following Caudecus dungeons.

  • Westenev.5289Westenev.5289 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Honestly, I've seen level 30 players who continuously die to ascalon catacomb flame traps (sometimes more than once, as they flounder around like headless chickens).

    I've also seen level 40 WoW veterans who stormed Caudicus manor p1, all combat, no deaths, no skips.

    There is a huge gap between wow veterans and "first time mmo" players. Dungeons are certainly able to be completed at the levels stated, but it's definitely down to player build/skill to make it happen. That being said, being level 80 does provide a huge advantage.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Westenev.5289 said:
    Honestly, I've seen level 30 players who continuously die to ascalon catacomb flame traps (sometimes more than once, as they flounder around like headless chickens).

    I've seen level 80 pushovers dying to the traps in AC, so doing that at level 30 is not surprising.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    some people ask 100+li for AC123.
    So be chill. You can always make yours lfg group and write "welcome all"

  • @Terra.9506 said:
    All this just my opinion though.. what about you?

    1. The story modes need to be rolled into the personal story like Arah was.
    2. The explorable modes should be reworked as LVL 80 content akin to raids.
  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 12, 2020

    That's actually what Story Mode was for. Story Mode is more level appropriate, while exploitable is more for the advanced player that wants to go further.

    In practice though as players progressed, story mode was forgotten about and dungeons as a whole just don't reward that much. So it is really just a relic of the past.

    I actually find dungeons pretty hard. Even for my friends that clears CMs every day, we often potato in dungeons because the whole "what mechanics, just dps this kitten" mentality comes around. Also, not being able to /gg feels so archaic. Apples and oranges! Most of this is due to the lack of rewards and often being here just for some tokens and leaving, but still.

  • mizaru.1385mizaru.1385 Member ✭✭

    Story mode is the appropriate level but being a sort or pre req, it needs to be made into personal story that can be soloed proper as LFG for story is cumbersome and long.

    The explorables on the other hand are not balanced properly. Like some1 said, AC being at lvl 30 is abit misleading. I remember back in the day without the power creeps it was pretty hard even at lvl 80. Sure it should be easier now, but for the newer players, going in at 30 is suicide. They can barely dent the bosses.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 5, 2020

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    Yeah I know the history, which follows another joke that Anet made this adjustment to encourage new players to spread up, use range attack, and stay as far as they could, just to be massively kicked in the next following Caudecus dungeons.

    You could kill the Spider Queen while afk

    I guess going from one extreme to another is Anet's specialty

  • Lexi.1398Lexi.1398 Member ✭✭✭

    Well, i beat CM story when i was a new player, with my 2 new player friends at level 50 ish and one at 80, none of us having really any grip on the combat system nevermind buildcraft, all in mostly greens/blues with story given trinkets. And some of those CM story bosses are no joke, though i imagine the harder fights in dungeons in general were easier when condis worked differently.

    So thats undergeared, not having the same amount of players dungeons were made for, with really little knowledge of the game...sure, it didn't take the 10 minutes clear i'd expect from groups of 5 now, and it wasn't easy for us, but it was very much possible and would have been even more so if the open world actually taught anything about combat at all.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The few things you need to be able to avoid with the spider seem to make it a hard boss in the eyes of today's players.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Henry.5713 said:
    The few things you need to be able to avoid with the spider seem to make it a hard boss in the eyes of today's players.

    If they took away the giant AoE's, I'd happy to see it receive some interesting mechanics.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Terra.9506 said:
    what happen when they found out even the best gear at their level can't even scratched the first bandit they meet and get one shot even on 1v1 fight.

    They are 5v1 fights.Why are you concerned about 1v1?

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 6, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    Yeah I know the history, which follows another joke that Anet made this adjustment to encourage new players to spread up, use range attack, and stay as far as they could, just to be massively kicked in the next following Caudecus dungeons.

    You could kill the Spider Queen while afk

    I guess going from one extreme to another is Anet's specialty

    That's a 6 years old video, plus the players cleared all of its sub minions before hand on a lvl 80 heal ele.
    Doesn't work on the post patch Spider Queen.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    Yeah I know the history, which follows another joke that Anet made this adjustment to encourage new players to spread up, use range attack, and stay as far as they could, just to be massively kicked in the next following Caudecus dungeons.

    You could kill the Spider Queen while afk

    I guess going from one extreme to another is Anet's specialty

    That's a 6 years old video, plus the players cleared all of its sub minions before hand.
    Doesn't work on the post patch Spider Queen.

    TBH post patch queen is still easy(with 4 lvl 80s), not sure about a group running at level however. I ran AC once or twice with a character at the required level and i probably wont do that again.
    Cant afk it thankfully, and out of all the dungeon bosses its probably the most interactive.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • skarpak.8594skarpak.8594 Member ✭✭
    edited May 7, 2020

    i don't think that they are misleading in the slightest. i recently leveled several characters to 80 on my second account and with the appropriate gear to my level (for example having level 35 blue/green gear with level 35) and slotted in runes / sigils it was no problem at all to even solo some of the paths from different kind of dungeons. usually i was already halfway through until someone finally descided to "help out that cute lowlevel nooby".

    some classes with the right first picked traitline do already burst like mad without problems for their respective level.

    what makes low level failing dungeons is what makes them also fail in the late game. having mix and match gear with random stats and random traits. if you actually play with power gear only and have useful traits in which either scale your damage up, let you throw in another aoe field, critchance up or give boons like might (especially those are kitten powerful in early game) and fury, then the content is childs play with 5 people.

    i had it several times on my leveling spree that i outdpsed people on level 80 in full asceded gear, simply because they suck. even selfbuffing reapers made for solo play.

    ofc a completly new player does not have that kind of insight like when to use which skill and what is useful in general. but on the other hand, you are also 5 people in a dungeons and when playing through the first time, there should be no problem at all in learning stuff. i mean thats what we did back at launch. we played those dungeons at their respective level and there was no fancy easy trait system back then and getting all the traits was quite some money investment beforehand. having a single full traitline at level 31 with master traits? that would have been a dream. guide on skill rotations or which ones are good to use? nope, not there. also people running the worst kind of mix and match because no one knew better.

    right now there are enough infos, guides and other stuff out there, even for low level stuff. if you think dungeons are not appropriate for their level and they are too hard then sorry, come back later when you are more experienced....thats the message they always had. making tier 1 fractals out of them would just make them even worse then their current state.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    Yeah I know the history, which follows another joke that Anet made this adjustment to encourage new players to spread up, use range attack, and stay as far as they could, just to be massively kicked in the next following Caudecus dungeons.

    You could kill the Spider Queen while afk

    I guess going from one extreme to another is Anet's specialty

    That's a 6 years old video, plus the players cleared all of its sub minions before hand on a lvl 80 heal ele.
    Doesn't work on the post patch Spider Queen.

    I know it doesn't work now but the video shows the challenge level (or lack of it) of the Spider Queen back on those days. Then the developers buffed the Spider Queen to be more of a challenge and maybe they overshoot towards the other direction.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 8, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    Yeah I know the history, which follows another joke that Anet made this adjustment to encourage new players to spread up, use range attack, and stay as far as they could, just to be massively kicked in the next following Caudecus dungeons.

    You could kill the Spider Queen while afk

    I guess going from one extreme to another is Anet's specialty

    That's a 6 years old video, plus the players cleared all of its sub minions before hand on a lvl 80 heal ele.
    Doesn't work on the post patch Spider Queen.

    I know it doesn't work now but the video shows the challenge level (or lack of it) of the Spider Queen back on those days. Then the developers buffed the Spider Queen to be more of a challenge and maybe they overshoot towards the other direction.

    Yes, but topic is how Dungeon misled with their level requirement on low level players, not how a level 80 player can exploit out heal the boss on specific builds in a orchestrated instance where there is no flame turret, no minions.
    This is supposed to be the first encounter on a level 35 dungeon, post patch served neither training players in battle mechanics for the rest of the encounter, nor balancing challenges for the rest of the dungeon path.

  • Dayra.7405Dayra.7405 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 8, 2020

    @Terra.9506 said:
    consider even level 80 character with Ascend gear still take aged to bring down enemy in 1 on 1 fight

    Dungeons have no scaling for 1 on 1 they are meant to be 5 on 1

    (and as most skills are AoE, 5 on 3 work as well as 5 on 1 and 5 on 5 nearly as good as 5 on 1)