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Norn legends for possible future Elite Specs

Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭
  • Jora: We all know who Jora, the curse breaker and the one who washes blood with blood is. We met her in guild wars 1 and she became a companion to the main protagnist; Many adventures were to be had and honestly we don't know how far she truly went. Some like myself like to believe she went to factions, and nightfall alongside the hero to further her legend but thats up to A-net to decide. Her special mechanic could be "Shatter-Curse" Which makes it so you can break negative effects and convert them to health/resources, with her Elite skill being "Blood washes Blood". Could be thematic and she could be given greatsword as a weapon; But I highly doubt we will see her as it seems somewhat generic and outside the scope of what the revenant is. Might make it a bit too warrior and less occulty than it is, so eh might not be the best bet.
  • Svanir: Jora's brother and the original icebrood norn, the monster who terroized his people. The nornbear. He needs little introduction and I Feel he might be a more likely canidate if A-net decides to give us an "Evil" legend. Imagine becoming the norn-bear and having two sets of utilities based on how far along your madness/corruption goes; Duel daggers to represent the claws of the nornbear and bam you have a legend.
  • Asgeir Dragonrender: We all know who this guy is. The one who killed frostfang, injured another champion and fought jormag to a point where jormag told him to take his fang and go home. Basically a B.A.M.F and the founder of hoelbrak ===>https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/47611/e-spec-suggestion-broodslayer
  • Olaf Olafson, The seventh son of Olaf: He fought along side us in Eye of the north and was the "closest" thing the norn had at the time to a leader; He isn't mentioned much but he was extremely strong. So much so that lore wise he and FOUR other norn took on the army of destroyers and hunted them like cattle giving us time along with the dwarves and asuran golems to kill the great destroyer. He is a huge hero; One I wouldn't mind seeing as a legend simply due to how over the top, beowulf he was in personality.
  • Gaerta Whitebear: Enchantress, slayer of fleshreaver lords is a character with a statue in eir's homestead. Not much is known about her but she is legendary enough to have a statue, and if Kalla can be a legend when we knew the bare bones about her story then I don't see why anyone who is important enough to get a statue can't be a legend too. (No idea what enchantress means, at least in terms of guild wars 2.)
  • Brothander Halfmad: He invtented the most popular mead in norn society, has a statue and its said he made powerful poisions in a search for his "perfect brew". Could be REALLY FUNNY to have a drunken legend, about poison and intoxication as well tons of cc. (Im thinking Bachus from smite, litterally the funniest thing we could get.) Though I really don't want our one norn legend to be a drunk.... so might not be the best Idea.
  • Setta Bladestrong: A norn on an eternal journey to hunt down blackheart the messmer, who slew her lover. Apparently a legendary hero we again know nothing about; But she has a statue in Eir's house so im assuming that she is important. Could be really cool to have a legend all about clapping messmers, and countering them and their mechanics it would also make us the Ire of messmers... (Kinda already are, thieves too... they hate us for some reason.)
  • Egil Fireteller: The norn who told jora that "Blood washes blood", a sage who tells stories and knows of legends from times immemorial. He would be a very fitting legend for the revenant given how he knows legends outside of the norns from what he hints at. Would be very cool to see him in a role; He might be a minor character in GW1 but he was important due to his role at helping jora restore her ability to become the bear again.
  • Havroun Solvi: The old havroun of wolf, who died in the norn personal story. He was killed by son's of svanir who sought to use him as a vessel to enter the mists, we thwarted them but it costed him his life. He is said to have been noteworthy if not legendary and Eir promised to tell his story to the norn, and keep his legend alive so I assume he was important enough to be legendary. Could have him be a very "Werewolf" like Elite spec focused on becoming a werewolf and just ripping into things like a monster. Pair it with some wolf magic, and maybe some interactions with the wolf spirit and WHAM you have a thematic legend.
  • Havroun Grechen: The now dead Havroun of Bear, we don't know who took her place but she was killed durring the fight with Zaithan and then raised to be an undead horror. Again as above we could have her be a werebear themed legend all about becoming bear and wrecking havoc. Again thematic and cool; She is noteworthy and was one of the most headstrong and powerful havroun's to date in current time according to the personal story. Could be pretty cool to have her be the one who go up with, this way we could interact with her just a bit more.
  • Forgal Kernsson: He was your mentor if you went with the vigil, he lost his family to jormag and came to see you as his new family. He died willingly giving himself to save you from the dragons minions. Could be cool; Not as Iconic as Tybalt but this is a norn thread... the other races are not my concern at this time.

Bonus Round: We could also merely have the spirits of the wild, and have use swap between them via our F2-F5 abilities with utilities that base themselves around their stance. This means we could have them effect our skills in other legends as well. Would be super cool to interact with each one of them individually as we change stances ONTOP of legends: Could be really cool to see them as they are be our E-spec. But it might be out of scope due to how much work it would be, Id want voice acting for each stance so we really get the idea that changing what spirit we are in changes how it effects us.
Wolf could be all about the pack, working as a pack and buffing allies while summoning spirit wolves.
Bear could be all about CC, and massive damage with huge cleaves and AOE while becoming tankier due to the power of bear
Raven could be all about magic, shadows, darkness and misdirection
Snow-leopard could be about quick strikes, teleports and evasion
Wolverine could be all about bleeds and lifesteal
(Ox and Eagle I don't feel would offer enough uniqueness not covered by the others.)

If anything Bear could be our spirit of the wild, she is the strongest and is the most prominent of the legends. The leader of them and the one who has the most power; So it only makes sense that she could be the one we get due to power scaling. But if they wanted to make the excuse the others could be just as viable, I wouldn't mind having a focused E-spec on any of them. (More partial to wolf/bear especially bear as they are my favorite animal. And they seem more thematic that the others outside of maybe raven.... as they really are the only ones who have been super involved thus far.)

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Comments

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Note really quick that I left Eir out because she has recently died; GW3 if it ever happens would be the place Id suspect to see her as a legend. Here Im not so sure it would be wise to make her a legend; When she would end up bringing long bow considering its her iconic weapon. And Kalla already kind of brought that; Plus she while being a legend is not as much so a legend as some other norn heroes with more impressive feats and lore. (Similar to kalla, id be upset like I was when Pyre wasn't chosen. I doubt they will make that mistake again.)

  • jpsssss.7530jpsssss.7530 Member ✭✭

    Its possible that they add Eir to the list for GW2 as they added Tybalt to the mist champion roster.

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Note really quick that I left Eir out because she has recently

    spoiler

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    One of the rules I tend to apply towards proposals for the legends is the "then why isn't the GW1 PC the legend?" rule. Anybody who's eclipsed by the PC is probably not powerful enough to be a legend.

    As one out-there possibility that isn't technically norn but which could be viewed as norn-related... what about a legend based on the last giant-king before jotun society collapsed?

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    One of the rules I tend to apply towards proposals for the legends is the "then why isn't the GW1 PC the legend?" rule. Anybody who's eclipsed by the PC is probably not powerful enough to be a legend.

    As one out-there possibility that isn't technically norn but which could be viewed as norn-related... what about a legend based on the last giant-king before jotun society collapsed?

    Could be cool, Rune magic and all the jotuun power from long before the current day. I'd like that but the issue is HE himself is not the most notable as I believe it was either the first or second who united the clans, and basically led them to prosperity through savagery and magic. Id love to see him as I believe he is somewhat different from what we currently have, would definitely make room for greatsword which despite me not being a fan of right now could be cool. I feel like we learn enough about him in the Personal story, that it could make sense given the fact we do speak with one of the kings.

    Wonder what the mechanics could be.... I love the Idea. Though I would still like one norn later down the line, someone notable. Asgeir honestly eclipses the PC from guild wars 1 as he did fight and kill frostfang, he inured another champion at the same time and even fought jormag to a stand still. Him being blessed by the spirits of the wild makes him the only norn candidate I FEEL is worthy of us channeling. Especially with his relevance and inclusion in current events, Our revenants sure are learning a lot about him? I wonder if that will help us channel his power?

    I also feel the spirits of the wild themselves are excellent candidates, given that they do exist and can move between our world and the mists.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Last giant-king, first giant-king, the giant-king that was in charge during the last dragonrise, the giant-king that did something else particularly impressive... doesn't really matter. Any of them could potentially have an interesting playstyle and open up lore we might not get otherwise.

    I wouldn't necessarily say Asgeir eclipses the GW1 PC, particularly given what we found out in episode 1. However, unlike Jora, Olaf, or Egil - or, more recently, Forgal and the two havrouns - he is the central figure in his story (apart from Jormag) who had a significant impact in his own right rather than someone who showed up at some point in the PC's story.

    Broadly speaking, too, I think the cup is beginning to run dry on mining GW1 for legends. All of the original set are essentially GW1 callbacks, and even Kalla could be said to be finishing what Pyre started in EOTN. Now, Svanir certainly is a potential candidate (although I'm inclined to consider him to be on the weaker side still) but it would be nice to see some legends from other time periods (sure, most of the original set of legends predated the events of GW1, particularly Glint, but let's be realistic, they were used because we saw them in GW1).

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Note really quick that I left Eir out because she has recently died; GW3 if it ever happens would be the place Id suspect to see her as a legend. Here Im not so sure it would be wise to make her a legend; When she would end up bringing long bow considering its her iconic weapon. And Kalla already kind of brought that; Plus she while being a legend is not as much so a legend as some other norn heroes with more impressive feats and lore. (Similar to kalla, id be upset like I was when Pyre wasn't chosen. I doubt they will make that mistake again.)

    Interestingly enough, the april fool's patchnotes also have the following joke:

    • Revenant - Blind Shot: The longbow range has been increased from 1,200 to 2,400.

    You won't find it in the english notes, since it is listed as a localization change.

    I suspect someone doesn't have to be dead to be considered a legend by the mists. Revs were able to invoke Joko during a story mission (The Hero of Istan). While technically dead, he was still active on Tyria at that time. If I've understood it correctly, Revs only channel echoes of the legends and their deeds.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you. Umbasa.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Last giant-king, first giant-king, the giant-king that was in charge during the last dragonrise, the giant-king that did something else particularly impressive... doesn't really matter. Any of them could potentially have an interesting playstyle and open up lore we might not get otherwise.

    I wouldn't necessarily say Asgeir eclipses the GW1 PC, particularly given what we found out in episode 1. However, unlike Jora, Olaf, or Egil - or, more recently, Forgal and the two havrouns - he is the central figure in his story (apart from Jormag) who had a significant impact in his own right rather than someone who showed up at some point in the PC's story.

    Broadly speaking, too, I think the cup is beginning to run dry on mining GW1 for legends. All of the original set are essentially GW1 callbacks, and even Kalla could be said to be finishing what Pyre started in EOTN. Now, Svanir certainly is a potential candidate (although I'm inclined to consider him to be on the weaker side still) but it would be nice to see some legends from other time periods (sure, most of the original set of legends predated the events of GW1, particularly Glint, but let's be realistic, they were used because we saw them in GW1).

    This is true but Id like norn, jotuun and other legends outside of human. And I honestly lack interest in asura so I mean it leaves them out; As for charr Im unsure if they'd do another one. And sylvari only really have Riannoc the original wielder of caldebolg and he wasn't.... well too powerful. He got clapped by a lich who we EASILY pummel~

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Note really quick that I left Eir out because she has recently died; GW3 if it ever happens would be the place Id suspect to see her as a legend. Here Im not so sure it would be wise to make her a legend; When she would end up bringing long bow considering its her iconic weapon. And Kalla already kind of brought that; Plus she while being a legend is not as much so a legend as some other norn heroes with more impressive feats and lore. (Similar to kalla, id be upset like I was when Pyre wasn't chosen. I doubt they will make that mistake again.)

    Interestingly enough, the april fool's patchnotes also have the following joke:

    • Revenant - Blind Shot: The longbow range has been increased from 1,200 to 2,400.

    You won't find it in the english notes, since it is listed as a localization change.

    I suspect someone doesn't have to be dead to be considered a legend by the mists. Revs were able to invoke Joko during a story mission (The Hero of Istan). While technically dead, he was still active on Tyria at that time. If I've understood it correctly, Revs only channel echoes of the legends and their deeds.

    I mean I don't think we will get another bow as a E-spec wep. And Id love to believe that but I Feel like we only channel an echo of joko to escape through his magic, while it opens some doors Id rather not channel someones echo while dealing with them extensively in the story. It would be kind of... well annoying? I mean imagine if we channel joko while fighting joko, it would be so weird and without our inner joko having snarky diolauge for the moment it would be kinda meh. Id love for Mist echo joko to talk smack about himself as you beat him around.

    Mist joko: "By me, is that what I sound like? IS that what I do? The hubris. Clearly this me is a fake..... you must execute it in the name of joko. PRAISE JOKO!!!"
    My male norn Rev: "Ugh, between the two of you I feel like Im going to be sick. Im not sure who is worse, him posturing or you sitting there getting off over yourself."

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2020

    Well, going outside of GW1 references also opens up more possibilities for legends that aren't connected to human history...

    I think ArenaNet has already set channeling Joko up as being a one-off. The PC says 'okay, I'll do this once, but NEVER AGAIN because channeling Joko just puts a bad taste in my mouth' (not a precise quote, but that's the gist). I could see it being a thing where channeling Joko is a thing that theoretically could happen, but just never does within the timespan covered by GW2 because all revenants are only a couple of degrees of separation from Rytlock and they all agree that channeling Joko is inappropriate.

    That, and a hypothetical Legendary Lich Stance would probably just result in pretending to be a necro anyway.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Well, going outside of GW1 references also opens up more possibilities for legends that aren't connected to human history...

    I think ArenaNet has already set channeling Joko up as being a one-off. The PC says 'okay, I'll do this once, but NEVER AGAIN because channeling Joko just puts a bad taste in my mouth' (not a precise quote, but that's the gist). I could see it being a thing where channeling Joko is a thing that theoretically could happen, but just never does within the timespan covered by GW2 because all revenants are only a couple of degrees of separation from Rytlock and they all agree that channeling Joko is inappropriate.

    That, and a hypothetical Legendary Lich Stance would probably just result in pretending to be a necro anyway.

    I wouldn't say all rev's are a few degrees from rytlock, again norn can utilize and work with mist magic and have been doing so since time immamorial from how they set it up. (Havrouns and shamans) so Id assume its probably safe to say that at least on that end they don't have to be tied to rytlock lore wise. But all the charr revenants are tied to him because he went back to the citadel to train them, thus the renegades were born.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    The last ones in the list can't be legend. A brewer and a storyteller are no fighters. And NPCs that died during low level content from current game do not deserve to be.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2020

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Well, going outside of GW1 references also opens up more possibilities for legends that aren't connected to human history...

    I think ArenaNet has already set channeling Joko up as being a one-off. The PC says 'okay, I'll do this once, but NEVER AGAIN because channeling Joko just puts a bad taste in my mouth' (not a precise quote, but that's the gist). I could see it being a thing where channeling Joko is a thing that theoretically could happen, but just never does within the timespan covered by GW2 because all revenants are only a couple of degrees of separation from Rytlock and they all agree that channeling Joko is inappropriate.

    That, and a hypothetical Legendary Lich Stance would probably just result in pretending to be a necro anyway.

    I wouldn't say all rev's are a few degrees from rytlock, again norn can utilize and work with mist magic and have been doing so since time immamorial from how they set it up. (Havrouns and shamans) so Id assume its probably safe to say that at least on that end they don't have to be tied to rytlock lore wise. But all the charr revenants are tied to him because he went back to the citadel to train them, thus the renegades were born.

    Fluffwise, Rytlock is the first revenant on Tyria, and there's no indication that there's been an independent development of the revenant profession anywhere. Every revenant was either trained by Rytlock (the PC is presumed to have been something else before HoT and then become Rytlock's first student in HoT if the PC is a revenant) or part of a chain that stretches back to Rytlock.

    It's possible that now people know it's possible that at some stage someone will figure it out for themselves, but we have no evidence of that. Yes, the norn have some ability to manipulate the Mists, usually with the aid of the Spirits of the Wild, but there's a big difference between "has some Mists-related magic" and actually calling on legends for empowerment the way that a revenant does.

    So, yeah, at this stage, I think the statement is fairly accurate. Keep in mind that the links to Rytlock are a large part of the reason for thinking that a new elite specialisation might be more likely to be related to a core Tyria culture than to Cantha - after all, Canthans also have a long history with Mists magic as well as a few possible candidates for legends. If we are to consider the possibility of an independent revenant line sprouting somewhere, it could just as easily (possibly more so) be in Cantha than among the norn.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    The last ones in the list can't be legend. A brewer and a storyteller are no fighters. And NPCs that died during low level content from current game do not deserve to be.

    Kalla wasn't really worthy either, she died as a martyr and had no real power. She as a legend is a "weak" choice due to the fact that she was merely another charr warrior, sure she created a ripple but of all the powerful things to conjure into ones self Id of assumed they'd of chosen something stronger. If kalla can be a legend, then a brewer who created EIGHT different highly toxic and deadly poisons in pursuit of his craft can be one. And remember all norn are warriors, no matter their profession they are expected to be capable of fighting and need to do so to survive. So even a brewer would be more then a match for a regular human/charr.

    Norn are legends, they desire to become legendary and ANY NORN who has a story told through-out their society and beyond could be a candidate. Sure would it be lame? Yea thats true it could be, but I mean kalla exists and she isn't really cream of the crop either. Ill take any norn I can get as long as we get a norn legend, Id like one just one norn legend to be based around them and their aesthetic. We have a charr one, we have a human one, Sylvari have one... and some netural ones. I think each race can be represented....

    Zin would be a great one for asura, a mad scientist who is constantly badgering the player about needing more "Test subjects".

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2020

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    The last ones in the list can't be legend. A brewer and a storyteller are no fighters. And NPCs that died during low level content from current game do not deserve to be.

    Kalla wasn't really worthy either, she died as a martyr and had no real power. She as a legend is a "weak" choice due to the fact that she was merely another charr warrior, sure she created a ripple but of all the powerful things to conjure into ones self Id of assumed they'd of chosen something stronger. If kalla can be a legend, then a brewer who created EIGHT different highly toxic and deadly poisons in pursuit of his craft can be one. And remember all norn are warriors, no matter their profession they are expected to be capable of fighting and need to do so to survive. So even a brewer would be more then a match for a regular human/charr.

    Norn are legends, they desire to become legendary and ANY NORN who has a story told through-out their society and beyond could be a candidate. Sure would it be lame? Yea thats true it could be, but I mean kalla exists and she isn't really cream of the crop either. Ill take any norn I can get as long as we get a norn legend, Id like one just one norn legend to be based around them and their aesthetic. We have a charr one, we have a human one, Sylvari have one... and some netural ones. I think each race can be represented....

    Zin would be a great one for asura, a mad scientist who is constantly badgering the player about needing more "Test subjects".

    But Kalla was a fighter and doesn't appear when you're level 10 to die after doing barely anything.
    Also, her legend is strong among the Charrs, not as "merely an other warrior".
    I said that the "last ones" weren't worthy of becoming a legend. The first part of the list is full of legit options.
    Asgeir is my personal favourite. Zin would be great yes.
    Shiro is already a legend so Cantha is covered in a way.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    The last ones in the list can't be legend. A brewer and a storyteller are no fighters. And NPCs that died during low level content from current game do not deserve to be.

    Kalla wasn't really worthy either, she died as a martyr and had no real power. She as a legend is a "weak" choice due to the fact that she was merely another charr warrior, sure she created a ripple but of all the powerful things to conjure into ones self Id of assumed they'd of chosen something stronger. If kalla can be a legend, then a brewer who created EIGHT different highly toxic and deadly poisons in pursuit of his craft can be one. And remember all norn are warriors, no matter their profession they are expected to be capable of fighting and need to do so to survive. So even a brewer would be more then a match for a regular human/charr.

    Norn are legends, they desire to become legendary and ANY NORN who has a story told through-out their society and beyond could be a candidate. Sure would it be lame? Yea thats true it could be, but I mean kalla exists and she isn't really cream of the crop either. Ill take any norn I can get as long as we get a norn legend, Id like one just one norn legend to be based around them and their aesthetic. We have a charr one, we have a human one, Sylvari have one... and some netural ones. I think each race can be represented....

    Zin would be a great one for asura, a mad scientist who is constantly badgering the player about needing more "Test subjects".

    The ripple is kinda the point, though: Kalla was the catalyst that overturned charr society as it was then and made it into what it is now. The only norn that can be said to be even close to having that sort of impact are Asgeir and Svanir, and even then, norn society hasn't had the complete turnaround that the overthrow of the Flame Legion produced. Apart from moving location and maybe being a little less individualistic and belligerent (remember the GW1 norn that wouldn't even talk to you until you fought them?) norn haven't really changed much.

    Inventing a set of poisons or holding a position that has passed on from predecessor to successor like being a havroun just doesn't even approach that scale.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    The last ones in the list can't be legend. A brewer and a storyteller are no fighters. And NPCs that died during low level content from current game do not deserve to be.

    Kalla wasn't really worthy either, she died as a martyr and had no real power. She as a legend is a "weak" choice due to the fact that she was merely another charr warrior, sure she created a ripple but of all the powerful things to conjure into ones self Id of assumed they'd of chosen something stronger. If kalla can be a legend, then a brewer who created EIGHT different highly toxic and deadly poisons in pursuit of his craft can be one. And remember all norn are warriors, no matter their profession they are expected to be capable of fighting and need to do so to survive. So even a brewer would be more then a match for a regular human/charr.

    Norn are legends, they desire to become legendary and ANY NORN who has a story told through-out their society and beyond could be a candidate. Sure would it be lame? Yea thats true it could be, but I mean kalla exists and she isn't really cream of the crop either. Ill take any norn I can get as long as we get a norn legend, Id like one just one norn legend to be based around them and their aesthetic. We have a charr one, we have a human one, Sylvari have one... and some netural ones. I think each race can be represented....

    Zin would be a great one for asura, a mad scientist who is constantly badgering the player about needing more "Test subjects".

    The ripple is kinda the point, though: Kalla was the catalyst that overturned charr society as it was then and made it into what it is now. The only norn that can be said to be even close to having that sort of impact are Asgeir and Svanir, and even then, norn society hasn't had the complete turnaround that the overthrow of the Flame Legion produced. Apart from moving location and maybe being a little less individualistic and belligerent (remember the GW1 norn that wouldn't even talk to you until you fought them?) norn haven't really changed much.

    Inventing a set of poisons or holding a position that has passed on from predecessor to successor like being a havroun just doesn't even approach that scale.

    Havrouns go through ALOT to become what they are. And they kind of dictate and control each tribe of norn so the Bear Havroun has complete dominion on guiding the bear-born norn. Asgeir did change the norn in that he had to create hoelbrak and made the prophecy of the fang, their entire way of life right now is based on the foundations on what he created. He not only saved them but he is as far as we know the only being blessed by ALL of the spirits of the wild, he killed frostfang and injured jormag. I think he is a heavy weight in this debate~

    Svanir is also pretty heavy and changed a lot for the norn, he basically was the first icebrood and honestly seems like the most dangerous. The damage he caused and the devastation he unleashed far at least from what we see in game outweighs the kind of destruction modern Son's of Svanir are capable of. I feel like either one is more than worthy especially when compared to kalla, or mallyx even as mallyx REALLY didn't do anything besides remain in the realm of torment and get farmed. Mallyx is a real head-scratcher because he isn't relevant to the story of either game very much... he was a side outing but one that had little that could be said is a ripple effect. (Kanaxai and Urgoz were WAAAAY bigger of a deal.)

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    The last ones in the list can't be legend. A brewer and a storyteller are no fighters. And NPCs that died during low level content from current game do not deserve to be.

    Kalla wasn't really worthy either, she died as a martyr and had no real power. She as a legend is a "weak" choice due to the fact that she was merely another charr warrior, sure she created a ripple but of all the powerful things to conjure into ones self Id of assumed they'd of chosen something stronger. If kalla can be a legend, then a brewer who created EIGHT different highly toxic and deadly poisons in pursuit of his craft can be one. And remember all norn are warriors, no matter their profession they are expected to be capable of fighting and need to do so to survive. So even a brewer would be more then a match for a regular human/charr.

    Norn are legends, they desire to become legendary and ANY NORN who has a story told through-out their society and beyond could be a candidate. Sure would it be lame? Yea thats true it could be, but I mean kalla exists and she isn't really cream of the crop either. Ill take any norn I can get as long as we get a norn legend, Id like one just one norn legend to be based around them and their aesthetic. We have a charr one, we have a human one, Sylvari have one... and some netural ones. I think each race can be represented....

    Zin would be a great one for asura, a mad scientist who is constantly badgering the player about needing more "Test subjects".

    The ripple is kinda the point, though: Kalla was the catalyst that overturned charr society as it was then and made it into what it is now. The only norn that can be said to be even close to having that sort of impact are Asgeir and Svanir, and even then, norn society hasn't had the complete turnaround that the overthrow of the Flame Legion produced. Apart from moving location and maybe being a little less individualistic and belligerent (remember the GW1 norn that wouldn't even talk to you until you fought them?) norn haven't really changed much.

    Inventing a set of poisons or holding a position that has passed on from predecessor to successor like being a havroun just doesn't even approach that scale.

    Havrouns go through ALOT to become what they are. And they kind of dictate and control each tribe of norn so the Bear Havroun has complete dominion on guiding the bear-born norn. Asgeir did change the norn in that he had to create hoelbrak and made the prophecy of the fang, their entire way of life right now is based on the foundations on what he created. He not only saved them but he is as far as we know the only being blessed by ALL of the spirits of the wild, he killed frostfang and injured jormag. I think he is a heavy weight in this debate~

    Svanir is also pretty heavy and changed a lot for the norn, he basically was the first icebrood and honestly seems like the most dangerous. The damage he caused and the devastation he unleashed far at least from what we see in game outweighs the kind of destruction modern Son's of Svanir are capable of. I feel like either one is more than worthy especially when compared to kalla, or mallyx even as mallyx REALLY didn't do anything besides remain in the realm of torment and get farmed. Mallyx is a real head-scratcher because he isn't relevant to the story of either game very much... he was a side outing but one that had little that could be said is a ripple effect. (Kanaxai and Urgoz were WAAAAY bigger of a deal.)

    Don't forget that when Norns became playable, they got heavily nerfed in what they can achieve individually.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    The last ones in the list can't be legend. A brewer and a storyteller are no fighters. And NPCs that died during low level content from current game do not deserve to be.

    Kalla wasn't really worthy either, she died as a martyr and had no real power. She as a legend is a "weak" choice due to the fact that she was merely another charr warrior, sure she created a ripple but of all the powerful things to conjure into ones self Id of assumed they'd of chosen something stronger. If kalla can be a legend, then a brewer who created EIGHT different highly toxic and deadly poisons in pursuit of his craft can be one. And remember all norn are warriors, no matter their profession they are expected to be capable of fighting and need to do so to survive. So even a brewer would be more then a match for a regular human/charr.

    Norn are legends, they desire to become legendary and ANY NORN who has a story told through-out their society and beyond could be a candidate. Sure would it be lame? Yea thats true it could be, but I mean kalla exists and she isn't really cream of the crop either. Ill take any norn I can get as long as we get a norn legend, Id like one just one norn legend to be based around them and their aesthetic. We have a charr one, we have a human one, Sylvari have one... and some netural ones. I think each race can be represented....

    Zin would be a great one for asura, a mad scientist who is constantly badgering the player about needing more "Test subjects".

    The ripple is kinda the point, though: Kalla was the catalyst that overturned charr society as it was then and made it into what it is now. The only norn that can be said to be even close to having that sort of impact are Asgeir and Svanir, and even then, norn society hasn't had the complete turnaround that the overthrow of the Flame Legion produced. Apart from moving location and maybe being a little less individualistic and belligerent (remember the GW1 norn that wouldn't even talk to you until you fought them?) norn haven't really changed much.

    Inventing a set of poisons or holding a position that has passed on from predecessor to successor like being a havroun just doesn't even approach that scale.

    Havrouns go through ALOT to become what they are. And they kind of dictate and control each tribe of norn so the Bear Havroun has complete dominion on guiding the bear-born norn. Asgeir did change the norn in that he had to create hoelbrak and made the prophecy of the fang, their entire way of life right now is based on the foundations on what he created. He not only saved them but he is as far as we know the only being blessed by ALL of the spirits of the wild, he killed frostfang and injured jormag. I think he is a heavy weight in this debate~

    Svanir is also pretty heavy and changed a lot for the norn, he basically was the first icebrood and honestly seems like the most dangerous. The damage he caused and the devastation he unleashed far at least from what we see in game outweighs the kind of destruction modern Son's of Svanir are capable of. I feel like either one is more than worthy especially when compared to kalla, or mallyx even as mallyx REALLY didn't do anything besides remain in the realm of torment and get farmed. Mallyx is a real head-scratcher because he isn't relevant to the story of either game very much... he was a side outing but one that had little that could be said is a ripple effect. (Kanaxai and Urgoz were WAAAAY bigger of a deal.)

    Don't forget that when Norns became playable, they got heavily nerfed in what they can achieve individually.

    thats because A-net hates the norn. Quite litterally they have been destroying their lore, their depth and their uniqueness to a point where we have always been "The back seat race" even in our OWN SAGA. Might as well be called charr time, with bangar and friends.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    The last ones in the list can't be legend. A brewer and a storyteller are no fighters. And NPCs that died during low level content from current game do not deserve to be.

    Kalla wasn't really worthy either, she died as a martyr and had no real power. She as a legend is a "weak" choice due to the fact that she was merely another charr warrior, sure she created a ripple but of all the powerful things to conjure into ones self Id of assumed they'd of chosen something stronger. If kalla can be a legend, then a brewer who created EIGHT different highly toxic and deadly poisons in pursuit of his craft can be one. And remember all norn are warriors, no matter their profession they are expected to be capable of fighting and need to do so to survive. So even a brewer would be more then a match for a regular human/charr.

    Norn are legends, they desire to become legendary and ANY NORN who has a story told through-out their society and beyond could be a candidate. Sure would it be lame? Yea thats true it could be, but I mean kalla exists and she isn't really cream of the crop either. Ill take any norn I can get as long as we get a norn legend, Id like one just one norn legend to be based around them and their aesthetic. We have a charr one, we have a human one, Sylvari have one... and some netural ones. I think each race can be represented....

    Zin would be a great one for asura, a mad scientist who is constantly badgering the player about needing more "Test subjects".

    The ripple is kinda the point, though: Kalla was the catalyst that overturned charr society as it was then and made it into what it is now. The only norn that can be said to be even close to having that sort of impact are Asgeir and Svanir, and even then, norn society hasn't had the complete turnaround that the overthrow of the Flame Legion produced. Apart from moving location and maybe being a little less individualistic and belligerent (remember the GW1 norn that wouldn't even talk to you until you fought them?) norn haven't really changed much.

    Inventing a set of poisons or holding a position that has passed on from predecessor to successor like being a havroun just doesn't even approach that scale.

    Havrouns go through ALOT to become what they are. And they kind of dictate and control each tribe of norn so the Bear Havroun has complete dominion on guiding the bear-born norn. Asgeir did change the norn in that he had to create hoelbrak and made the prophecy of the fang, their entire way of life right now is based on the foundations on what he created. He not only saved them but he is as far as we know the only being blessed by ALL of the spirits of the wild, he killed frostfang and injured jormag. I think he is a heavy weight in this debate~

    Svanir is also pretty heavy and changed a lot for the norn, he basically was the first icebrood and honestly seems like the most dangerous. The damage he caused and the devastation he unleashed far at least from what we see in game outweighs the kind of destruction modern Son's of Svanir are capable of. I feel like either one is more than worthy especially when compared to kalla, or mallyx even as mallyx REALLY didn't do anything besides remain in the realm of torment and get farmed. Mallyx is a real head-scratcher because he isn't relevant to the story of either game very much... he was a side outing but one that had little that could be said is a ripple effect. (Kanaxai and Urgoz were WAAAAY bigger of a deal.)

    Havrouns might be important and there might be some impressive acts required to get that position, but it is still part of a chain of predecessors and successors. If all someone has going for them is that they have the title of 'havroun', they're no more legendary than a human king or a charr imperator - just one more link in a chain. (Admittedly, kings are hereditary while havrouns and imperators are at least somewhat meritocratic in their selection, but the principle remains - what makes this havroun more impressive than any of the dozens that preceded or followed them through history?)

    But there was only one rebellion that overthrew the shamans. There is only one Dragonrender who fought Jormag to the negotiating table and led the norn south. Only one Svanir which the Sons of Svanir now claim to have their inspiration from (although I question how much influence Svanir actually had - it seems entirely likely that there would still have been a Jormag cult among the norn regardless). Or to pick a human example, only one first king of a united Orr, Ascalon, and Kryta who petitioned the gods to reduce the power of magic to preserve the world.

    That's the sort of thing that seems to be required to be a revenant legend. Can't just be the next holder of a title, however impressive that title is. You need to have done something that is entirely unique to you which is impressive enough to leave echoes in the Mists.

    Furthermore, while I might be misremembering, I do recall that there was a statement around the time that Stronghold was being promoted that the heroes you can channel in Stronghold are echoes of individuals who were impressive enough to leave an impression on the Mists, but not so impressive that their echo is strong enough to serve as the basis of a revenant legend. If I am remembering correctly, this sets a minimum level of what it takes - a revenant legend must be someone who was more important to history than Turai freaking Ossa.

    Some random havroun or a guy who's legend is based around his skill at brewing need not apply.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    The last ones in the list can't be legend. A brewer and a storyteller are no fighters. And NPCs that died during low level content from current game do not deserve to be.

    Kalla wasn't really worthy either, she died as a martyr and had no real power. She as a legend is a "weak" choice due to the fact that she was merely another charr warrior, sure she created a ripple but of all the powerful things to conjure into ones self Id of assumed they'd of chosen something stronger. If kalla can be a legend, then a brewer who created EIGHT different highly toxic and deadly poisons in pursuit of his craft can be one. And remember all norn are warriors, no matter their profession they are expected to be capable of fighting and need to do so to survive. So even a brewer would be more then a match for a regular human/charr.

    Norn are legends, they desire to become legendary and ANY NORN who has a story told through-out their society and beyond could be a candidate. Sure would it be lame? Yea thats true it could be, but I mean kalla exists and she isn't really cream of the crop either. Ill take any norn I can get as long as we get a norn legend, Id like one just one norn legend to be based around them and their aesthetic. We have a charr one, we have a human one, Sylvari have one... and some netural ones. I think each race can be represented....

    Zin would be a great one for asura, a mad scientist who is constantly badgering the player about needing more "Test subjects".

    The ripple is kinda the point, though: Kalla was the catalyst that overturned charr society as it was then and made it into what it is now. The only norn that can be said to be even close to having that sort of impact are Asgeir and Svanir, and even then, norn society hasn't had the complete turnaround that the overthrow of the Flame Legion produced. Apart from moving location and maybe being a little less individualistic and belligerent (remember the GW1 norn that wouldn't even talk to you until you fought them?) norn haven't really changed much.

    Inventing a set of poisons or holding a position that has passed on from predecessor to successor like being a havroun just doesn't even approach that scale.

    Havrouns go through ALOT to become what they are. And they kind of dictate and control each tribe of norn so the Bear Havroun has complete dominion on guiding the bear-born norn. Asgeir did change the norn in that he had to create hoelbrak and made the prophecy of the fang, their entire way of life right now is based on the foundations on what he created. He not only saved them but he is as far as we know the only being blessed by ALL of the spirits of the wild, he killed frostfang and injured jormag. I think he is a heavy weight in this debate~

    Svanir is also pretty heavy and changed a lot for the norn, he basically was the first icebrood and honestly seems like the most dangerous. The damage he caused and the devastation he unleashed far at least from what we see in game outweighs the kind of destruction modern Son's of Svanir are capable of. I feel like either one is more than worthy especially when compared to kalla, or mallyx even as mallyx REALLY didn't do anything besides remain in the realm of torment and get farmed. Mallyx is a real head-scratcher because he isn't relevant to the story of either game very much... he was a side outing but one that had little that could be said is a ripple effect. (Kanaxai and Urgoz were WAAAAY bigger of a deal.)

    Havrouns might be important and there might be some impressive acts required to get that position, but it is still part of a chain of predecessors and successors. If all someone has going for them is that they have the title of 'havroun', they're no more legendary than a human king or a charr imperator - just one more link in a chain. (Admittedly, kings are hereditary while havrouns and imperators are at least somewhat meritocratic in their selection, but the principle remains - what makes this havroun more impressive than any of the dozens that preceded or followed them through history?)

    But there was only one rebellion that overthrew the shamans. There is only one Dragonrender who fought Jormag to the negotiating table and led the norn south. Only one Svanir which the Sons of Svanir now claim to have their inspiration from (although I question how much influence Svanir actually had - it seems entirely likely that there would still have been a Jormag cult among the norn regardless). Or to pick a human example, only one first king of a united Orr, Ascalon, and Kryta who petitioned the gods to reduce the power of magic to preserve the world.

    That's the sort of thing that seems to be required to be a revenant legend. Can't just be the next holder of a title, however impressive that title is. You need to have done something that is entirely unique to you which is impressive enough to leave echoes in the Mists.

    Furthermore, while I might be misremembering, I do recall that there was a statement around the time that Stronghold was being promoted that the heroes you can channel in Stronghold are echoes of individuals who were impressive enough to leave an impression on the Mists, but not so impressive that their echo is strong enough to serve as the basis of a revenant legend. If I am remembering correctly, this sets a minimum level of what it takes - a revenant legend must be someone who was more important to history than Turai freaking Ossa.

    Some random havroun or a guy who's legend is based around his skill at brewing need not apply.

    The point was Id take any norn, over another human or charr. Im so fizzled out on human and charr stuff right now that its insane, I want more norn and Im tired of feeling like the race as a whole is a back burner race meant for comic relief and to be the punching bag. Quite literally nothing overly impressive or interesting regarding the norn has happened since launch; Even then it was kind of hit or miss. We list Eir, we've lost our cool racial uniqueness and now we are being denied a legend in the revenants lists when by all standards we should probably have more legends worthy of being in that poll than most races do in the history of tyria. But then again most of the legends aren't known(or are extremely vauge.) because most of the time norn get no shine or focus.

    This saga was supposed to be different, thus far the only thing that has happened is they've elaborated on Asgeir's feat. And we've had some svanir action, outside of that its all charr kitten again. More charr focus, charr victim complexes and more of the same stuff we've had the entire time the game has been out with everyone and everything taking center stage..... other than the norn.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    The last ones in the list can't be legend. A brewer and a storyteller are no fighters. And NPCs that died during low level content from current game do not deserve to be.

    Kalla wasn't really worthy either, she died as a martyr and had no real power. She as a legend is a "weak" choice due to the fact that she was merely another charr warrior, sure she created a ripple but of all the powerful things to conjure into ones self Id of assumed they'd of chosen something stronger. If kalla can be a legend, then a brewer who created EIGHT different highly toxic and deadly poisons in pursuit of his craft can be one. And remember all norn are warriors, no matter their profession they are expected to be capable of fighting and need to do so to survive. So even a brewer would be more then a match for a regular human/charr.

    Norn are legends, they desire to become legendary and ANY NORN who has a story told through-out their society and beyond could be a candidate. Sure would it be lame? Yea thats true it could be, but I mean kalla exists and she isn't really cream of the crop either. Ill take any norn I can get as long as we get a norn legend, Id like one just one norn legend to be based around them and their aesthetic. We have a charr one, we have a human one, Sylvari have one... and some netural ones. I think each race can be represented....

    Zin would be a great one for asura, a mad scientist who is constantly badgering the player about needing more "Test subjects".

    The ripple is kinda the point, though: Kalla was the catalyst that overturned charr society as it was then and made it into what it is now. The only norn that can be said to be even close to having that sort of impact are Asgeir and Svanir, and even then, norn society hasn't had the complete turnaround that the overthrow of the Flame Legion produced. Apart from moving location and maybe being a little less individualistic and belligerent (remember the GW1 norn that wouldn't even talk to you until you fought them?) norn haven't really changed much.

    Inventing a set of poisons or holding a position that has passed on from predecessor to successor like being a havroun just doesn't even approach that scale.

    Havrouns go through ALOT to become what they are. And they kind of dictate and control each tribe of norn so the Bear Havroun has complete dominion on guiding the bear-born norn. Asgeir did change the norn in that he had to create hoelbrak and made the prophecy of the fang, their entire way of life right now is based on the foundations on what he created. He not only saved them but he is as far as we know the only being blessed by ALL of the spirits of the wild, he killed frostfang and injured jormag. I think he is a heavy weight in this debate~

    Svanir is also pretty heavy and changed a lot for the norn, he basically was the first icebrood and honestly seems like the most dangerous. The damage he caused and the devastation he unleashed far at least from what we see in game outweighs the kind of destruction modern Son's of Svanir are capable of. I feel like either one is more than worthy especially when compared to kalla, or mallyx even as mallyx REALLY didn't do anything besides remain in the realm of torment and get farmed. Mallyx is a real head-scratcher because he isn't relevant to the story of either game very much... he was a side outing but one that had little that could be said is a ripple effect. (Kanaxai and Urgoz were WAAAAY bigger of a deal.)

    Havrouns might be important and there might be some impressive acts required to get that position, but it is still part of a chain of predecessors and successors. If all someone has going for them is that they have the title of 'havroun', they're no more legendary than a human king or a charr imperator - just one more link in a chain. (Admittedly, kings are hereditary while havrouns and imperators are at least somewhat meritocratic in their selection, but the principle remains - what makes this havroun more impressive than any of the dozens that preceded or followed them through history?)

    But there was only one rebellion that overthrew the shamans. There is only one Dragonrender who fought Jormag to the negotiating table and led the norn south. Only one Svanir which the Sons of Svanir now claim to have their inspiration from (although I question how much influence Svanir actually had - it seems entirely likely that there would still have been a Jormag cult among the norn regardless). Or to pick a human example, only one first king of a united Orr, Ascalon, and Kryta who petitioned the gods to reduce the power of magic to preserve the world.

    That's the sort of thing that seems to be required to be a revenant legend. Can't just be the next holder of a title, however impressive that title is. You need to have done something that is entirely unique to you which is impressive enough to leave echoes in the Mists.

    Furthermore, while I might be misremembering, I do recall that there was a statement around the time that Stronghold was being promoted that the heroes you can channel in Stronghold are echoes of individuals who were impressive enough to leave an impression on the Mists, but not so impressive that their echo is strong enough to serve as the basis of a revenant legend. If I am remembering correctly, this sets a minimum level of what it takes - a revenant legend must be someone who was more important to history than Turai freaking Ossa.

    Some random havroun or a guy who's legend is based around his skill at brewing need not apply.

    The point was Id take any norn, over another human or charr. Im so fizzled out on human and charr stuff right now that its insane, I want more norn and Im tired of feeling like the race as a whole is a back burner race meant for comic relief and to be the punching bag. Quite literally nothing overly impressive or interesting regarding the norn has happened since launch; Even then it was kind of hit or miss. We list Eir, we've lost our cool racial uniqueness and now we are being denied a legend in the revenants lists when by all standards we should probably have more legends worthy of being in that poll than most races do in the history of tyria. But then again most of the legends aren't known(or are extremely vauge.) because most of the time norn get no shine or focus.

    This saga was supposed to be different, thus far the only thing that has happened is they've elaborated on Asgeir's feat. And we've had some svanir action, outside of that its all charr kitten again. More charr focus, charr victim complexes and more of the same stuff we've had the entire time the game has been out with everyone and everything taking center stage..... other than the norn.

    Yeah, but I wouldn't want a cheap legend to fill quota.
    I would like having Asgeir Dragonrender with Greatsword and Spirit-themed skills
    Raven as heal, Wolf / Snow Leopard / Bear for utility, and an elite encompassing all of them.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Personally I'd prefer a norn legend attached to one of the lost or less known totems.
    Granted how we are flooded with hyleks, a legend linked to the frog spirit could very well happen.

    It's just hypothetic but you could very well start from this point:

    Frog is one of the lesser Spirits of the Wild. Little is known about this spirit; some hylek such as Watl are interested in learning more about Frog while some norn such as Frakki view the spirit as not being worth their time or praise.

    End up with a backstory on how the frog spirit is frustrated by it's unpopularity, thinking that it's power can matter in the fight against the dragons. And thus this spirit chose a hilek (due to their similarity) that achieve legendary feats to carry it's power not unlike norn carry the power of the bear, wolf, raven and snow leopard.

    By a twist it's discovered that this frog spirit is named Ameyalli by the hileks and that this name was given to it by this hylek legend.

    The e-spec end up with an F2 that transform the player into an hylek (time to recycle hylek skins!) as an upkeep, giving it access to a specific weapon skillkit. The utility skills end up being summoned minions that you can command with a flip skill (after all, apart from transformation, norn skills are summoned minions).

    Well, that was just to point out that a norn flavored e-spec don't necessarily need to have a norn legend.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Personally I'd prefer a norn legend attached to one of the lost or less known totems.
    Granted how we are flooded with hyleks, a legend linked to the frog spirit could very well happen.

    It's just hypothetic but you could very well start from this point:

    Frog is one of the lesser Spirits of the Wild. Little is known about this spirit; some hylek such as Watl are interested in learning more about Frog while some norn such as Frakki view the spirit as not being worth their time or praise.

    End up with a backstory on how the frog spirit is frustrated by it's unpopularity, thinking that it's power can matter in the fight against the dragons. And thus this spirit chose a hilek (due to their similarity) that achieve legendary feats to carry it's power not unlike norn carry the power of the bear, wolf, raven and snow leopard.

    By a twist it's discovered that this frog spirit is named Ameyalli by the hileks and that this name was given to it by this hylek legend.

    The e-spec end up with an F2 that transform the player into an hylek (time to recycle hylek skins!) as an upkeep, giving it access to a specific weapon skillkit. The utility skills end up being summoned minions that you can command with a flip skill (after all, apart from transformation, norn skills are summoned minions).

    Well, that was just to point out that a norn flavored e-spec don't necessarily need to have a norn legend.

    I want a norn themed, norn legend. Not a discount legend. Humans have one, charr have one and sylvari have one as I've stated. Asuran and norn both deserve to have one that is something relevant to them. I know the community over-all hate norn and honestly I don't get why, I feel the same way about humans and im begining to feel the same way about charr.. But I understand why they both got legends prior to the norn. Asgeir is perfect for the role, him or svanir. I just want ONE E-spec for rev that is a norn, I don't feel like its asking for a lot.

    Or you can do some generic togo/whatever else and just convince me further that the creators hate the norn. I mean we really haven't gotten anything specific to our race, our lore is all over the place, and we are used as comedic relife a lot of the time. The LEAST THEY COULD DO is use one of the LEGENDARY heroes who they remind us that they are indeed some of the most LEGENDARY heroes on a class all about LEGENDS and channeling LEGENDS to fight with. Plus Asgeir and Svanir both had unique power sets and in the case of both of them Asgeir had the blessings of the spirits which are god level beings. (If we go by the established lore im sure they will change. As it seems given the ambient diolouge given by rando charrs that the spirits are "False gods".)

    Svanir had an ability that called energy from the mists to assault the player, and is theorized to be a havroun or proto-havroun to jormag. BOTH of which could be something interesting given they both had unique powers and energy.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    The last ones in the list can't be legend. A brewer and a storyteller are no fighters. And NPCs that died during low level content from current game do not deserve to be.

    Kalla wasn't really worthy either, she died as a martyr and had no real power. She as a legend is a "weak" choice due to the fact that she was merely another charr warrior, sure she created a ripple but of all the powerful things to conjure into ones self Id of assumed they'd of chosen something stronger. If kalla can be a legend, then a brewer who created EIGHT different highly toxic and deadly poisons in pursuit of his craft can be one. And remember all norn are warriors, no matter their profession they are expected to be capable of fighting and need to do so to survive. So even a brewer would be more then a match for a regular human/charr.

    Norn are legends, they desire to become legendary and ANY NORN who has a story told through-out their society and beyond could be a candidate. Sure would it be lame? Yea thats true it could be, but I mean kalla exists and she isn't really cream of the crop either. Ill take any norn I can get as long as we get a norn legend, Id like one just one norn legend to be based around them and their aesthetic. We have a charr one, we have a human one, Sylvari have one... and some netural ones. I think each race can be represented....

    Zin would be a great one for asura, a mad scientist who is constantly badgering the player about needing more "Test subjects".

    The ripple is kinda the point, though: Kalla was the catalyst that overturned charr society as it was then and made it into what it is now. The only norn that can be said to be even close to having that sort of impact are Asgeir and Svanir, and even then, norn society hasn't had the complete turnaround that the overthrow of the Flame Legion produced. Apart from moving location and maybe being a little less individualistic and belligerent (remember the GW1 norn that wouldn't even talk to you until you fought them?) norn haven't really changed much.

    Inventing a set of poisons or holding a position that has passed on from predecessor to successor like being a havroun just doesn't even approach that scale.

    Havrouns go through ALOT to become what they are. And they kind of dictate and control each tribe of norn so the Bear Havroun has complete dominion on guiding the bear-born norn. Asgeir did change the norn in that he had to create hoelbrak and made the prophecy of the fang, their entire way of life right now is based on the foundations on what he created. He not only saved them but he is as far as we know the only being blessed by ALL of the spirits of the wild, he killed frostfang and injured jormag. I think he is a heavy weight in this debate~

    Svanir is also pretty heavy and changed a lot for the norn, he basically was the first icebrood and honestly seems like the most dangerous. The damage he caused and the devastation he unleashed far at least from what we see in game outweighs the kind of destruction modern Son's of Svanir are capable of. I feel like either one is more than worthy especially when compared to kalla, or mallyx even as mallyx REALLY didn't do anything besides remain in the realm of torment and get farmed. Mallyx is a real head-scratcher because he isn't relevant to the story of either game very much... he was a side outing but one that had little that could be said is a ripple effect. (Kanaxai and Urgoz were WAAAAY bigger of a deal.)

    Havrouns might be important and there might be some impressive acts required to get that position, but it is still part of a chain of predecessors and successors. If all someone has going for them is that they have the title of 'havroun', they're no more legendary than a human king or a charr imperator - just one more link in a chain. (Admittedly, kings are hereditary while havrouns and imperators are at least somewhat meritocratic in their selection, but the principle remains - what makes this havroun more impressive than any of the dozens that preceded or followed them through history?)

    But there was only one rebellion that overthrew the shamans. There is only one Dragonrender who fought Jormag to the negotiating table and led the norn south. Only one Svanir which the Sons of Svanir now claim to have their inspiration from (although I question how much influence Svanir actually had - it seems entirely likely that there would still have been a Jormag cult among the norn regardless). Or to pick a human example, only one first king of a united Orr, Ascalon, and Kryta who petitioned the gods to reduce the power of magic to preserve the world.

    That's the sort of thing that seems to be required to be a revenant legend. Can't just be the next holder of a title, however impressive that title is. You need to have done something that is entirely unique to you which is impressive enough to leave echoes in the Mists.

    Furthermore, while I might be misremembering, I do recall that there was a statement around the time that Stronghold was being promoted that the heroes you can channel in Stronghold are echoes of individuals who were impressive enough to leave an impression on the Mists, but not so impressive that their echo is strong enough to serve as the basis of a revenant legend. If I am remembering correctly, this sets a minimum level of what it takes - a revenant legend must be someone who was more important to history than Turai freaking Ossa.

    Some random havroun or a guy who's legend is based around his skill at brewing need not apply.

    The point was Id take any norn, over another human or charr. Im so fizzled out on human and charr stuff right now that its insane, I want more norn and Im tired of feeling like the race as a whole is a back burner race meant for comic relief and to be the punching bag. Quite literally nothing overly impressive or interesting regarding the norn has happened since launch; Even then it was kind of hit or miss. We list Eir, we've lost our cool racial uniqueness and now we are being denied a legend in the revenants lists when by all standards we should probably have more legends worthy of being in that poll than most races do in the history of tyria. But then again most of the legends aren't known(or are extremely vauge.) because most of the time norn get no shine or focus.

    This saga was supposed to be different, thus far the only thing that has happened is they've elaborated on Asgeir's feat. And we've had some svanir action, outside of that its all charr kitten again. More charr focus, charr victim complexes and more of the same stuff we've had the entire time the game has been out with everyone and everything taking center stage..... other than the norn.

    I'd question the assertion that norn should have more suitable candidates than any other race. Yes, they have the drive to prove themselves as a primary racial motivator... but while this means the average norn is generally more impressive than the average member of other races, their overall focus on individual accomplishment hinders them from ever becoming truly legendary, because that usually requires having a larger impact on the world than one person, however impressive, can achieve on their own.

    Look at the existing legends. Kalla was a leader. So was Mallyx. Ventari is a legend primarily due to the effect of his philosophies on the sylvari - there's a reason all of his legend skills are focused around the Tablet. Jalis was the king who decided to transform the dwarfs (back?) into stone. Joko got as powerful as he did because he raised an army. Glint is the architect of multiple schemes, and she certainly didn't do everything by herself.

    The closest legend to being norn-like is Shiro, since in his first life, he did appear to be someone who went around doing stuff on his own... but even then, it's mentioned early in Factions that he did in fact have a guild so he wasn't as much of a loner as all that, and the Jade Wind came about because he exploited an aspect of the culture he came from. And then when he returned, what do you know? He created an army. Two of them, technically - one that just kinda appeared in his wake, and one he constructed deliberately.

    The norn drive to build their individual legends means that across history you've probably got a lot of norn who will have songs sung about them for centuries... but few that quite managed to have the impact to become a revenant legend, because achieving that sort of impact is something that's hard to do alone. Compounding that is that norn themselves seem to have a relatively low population (so even if their average population is more impressive than the average human or charr, the most impressive humans and charr might actually outstrip the most impressive norn simply because of the effect of numbers) and the fact that norn have generally been fairly passive when it comes to world history: as focused as they are on building their personal legend, the norn as a whole have generally remained in their own territory and rarely set out to change the world like members of other races have. The typical norn is happy trying to prove themselves to be the best monster hunter or the best smith or the best whatever of their time, but this is a personal quest of self-improvement and demonstration of personal prowess - it's not in the general norn mindset to set out to change the world.

    This doesn't mean that it never happens, just that norn culture doesn't actually do anything to create more revenant-level legends than other races. Instead, you get a series of norn trying to be the best brewer, the best thief, the best wurmslayer, or whatever of their time, and there are plenty of members of other races that are exceptional smiths, brewers, and monster hunters. If anything, it makes norn less likely to do so - because when a human or charr has vision, ambition, and can establish themselves enough that they're respected by their peers, they can usually get their peers to rally behind them. A norn who has that sort of ambition is more likely to just have the other norn look at them and go "well, go ahead then, but we'll keep doing our own thing". We can look at EOTN for an example - Olaf Olafson is described as being among the most respected norn of his time, and even he only managed to rally together four other norn, one of whom is his own daughter, and all of which already had a personal connection to the PC... and this was to fight something that was potentially an existential threat to the norn. As much as the norn like to boast about five of them being worth an army... it really isn't.

    I sympathise and agree with wanting to have a norn legend, but I think we need to be realistic about who really meets the criteria. Drawing up a list of every named norn of any significance whatsoever doesn't help the case, because when push comes to shove, most of them really aren't that significant.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    The last ones in the list can't be legend. A brewer and a storyteller are no fighters. And NPCs that died during low level content from current game do not deserve to be.

    Kalla wasn't really worthy either, she died as a martyr and had no real power. She as a legend is a "weak" choice due to the fact that she was merely another charr warrior, sure she created a ripple but of all the powerful things to conjure into ones self Id of assumed they'd of chosen something stronger. If kalla can be a legend, then a brewer who created EIGHT different highly toxic and deadly poisons in pursuit of his craft can be one. And remember all norn are warriors, no matter their profession they are expected to be capable of fighting and need to do so to survive. So even a brewer would be more then a match for a regular human/charr.

    Norn are legends, they desire to become legendary and ANY NORN who has a story told through-out their society and beyond could be a candidate. Sure would it be lame? Yea thats true it could be, but I mean kalla exists and she isn't really cream of the crop either. Ill take any norn I can get as long as we get a norn legend, Id like one just one norn legend to be based around them and their aesthetic. We have a charr one, we have a human one, Sylvari have one... and some netural ones. I think each race can be represented....

    Zin would be a great one for asura, a mad scientist who is constantly badgering the player about needing more "Test subjects".

    The ripple is kinda the point, though: Kalla was the catalyst that overturned charr society as it was then and made it into what it is now. The only norn that can be said to be even close to having that sort of impact are Asgeir and Svanir, and even then, norn society hasn't had the complete turnaround that the overthrow of the Flame Legion produced. Apart from moving location and maybe being a little less individualistic and belligerent (remember the GW1 norn that wouldn't even talk to you until you fought them?) norn haven't really changed much.

    Inventing a set of poisons or holding a position that has passed on from predecessor to successor like being a havroun just doesn't even approach that scale.

    Havrouns go through ALOT to become what they are. And they kind of dictate and control each tribe of norn so the Bear Havroun has complete dominion on guiding the bear-born norn. Asgeir did change the norn in that he had to create hoelbrak and made the prophecy of the fang, their entire way of life right now is based on the foundations on what he created. He not only saved them but he is as far as we know the only being blessed by ALL of the spirits of the wild, he killed frostfang and injured jormag. I think he is a heavy weight in this debate~

    Svanir is also pretty heavy and changed a lot for the norn, he basically was the first icebrood and honestly seems like the most dangerous. The damage he caused and the devastation he unleashed far at least from what we see in game outweighs the kind of destruction modern Son's of Svanir are capable of. I feel like either one is more than worthy especially when compared to kalla, or mallyx even as mallyx REALLY didn't do anything besides remain in the realm of torment and get farmed. Mallyx is a real head-scratcher because he isn't relevant to the story of either game very much... he was a side outing but one that had little that could be said is a ripple effect. (Kanaxai and Urgoz were WAAAAY bigger of a deal.)

    Havrouns might be important and there might be some impressive acts required to get that position, but it is still part of a chain of predecessors and successors. If all someone has going for them is that they have the title of 'havroun', they're no more legendary than a human king or a charr imperator - just one more link in a chain. (Admittedly, kings are hereditary while havrouns and imperators are at least somewhat meritocratic in their selection, but the principle remains - what makes this havroun more impressive than any of the dozens that preceded or followed them through history?)

    But there was only one rebellion that overthrew the shamans. There is only one Dragonrender who fought Jormag to the negotiating table and led the norn south. Only one Svanir which the Sons of Svanir now claim to have their inspiration from (although I question how much influence Svanir actually had - it seems entirely likely that there would still have been a Jormag cult among the norn regardless). Or to pick a human example, only one first king of a united Orr, Ascalon, and Kryta who petitioned the gods to reduce the power of magic to preserve the world.

    That's the sort of thing that seems to be required to be a revenant legend. Can't just be the next holder of a title, however impressive that title is. You need to have done something that is entirely unique to you which is impressive enough to leave echoes in the Mists.

    Furthermore, while I might be misremembering, I do recall that there was a statement around the time that Stronghold was being promoted that the heroes you can channel in Stronghold are echoes of individuals who were impressive enough to leave an impression on the Mists, but not so impressive that their echo is strong enough to serve as the basis of a revenant legend. If I am remembering correctly, this sets a minimum level of what it takes - a revenant legend must be someone who was more important to history than Turai freaking Ossa.

    Some random havroun or a guy who's legend is based around his skill at brewing need not apply.

    The point was Id take any norn, over another human or charr. Im so fizzled out on human and charr stuff right now that its insane, I want more norn and Im tired of feeling like the race as a whole is a back burner race meant for comic relief and to be the punching bag. Quite literally nothing overly impressive or interesting regarding the norn has happened since launch; Even then it was kind of hit or miss. We list Eir, we've lost our cool racial uniqueness and now we are being denied a legend in the revenants lists when by all standards we should probably have more legends worthy of being in that poll than most races do in the history of tyria. But then again most of the legends aren't known(or are extremely vauge.) because most of the time norn get no shine or focus.

    This saga was supposed to be different, thus far the only thing that has happened is they've elaborated on Asgeir's feat. And we've had some svanir action, outside of that its all charr kitten again. More charr focus, charr victim complexes and more of the same stuff we've had the entire time the game has been out with everyone and everything taking center stage..... other than the norn.

    I'd question the assertion that norn should have more suitable candidates than any other race. Yes, they have the drive to prove themselves as a primary racial motivator... but while this means the average norn is generally more impressive than the average member of other races, their overall focus on individual accomplishment hinders them from ever becoming truly legendary, because that usually requires having a larger impact on the world than one person, however impressive, can achieve on their own.

    Look at the existing legends. Kalla was a leader. So was Mallyx. Ventari is a legend primarily due to the effect of his philosophies on the sylvari - there's a reason all of his legend skills are focused around the Tablet. Jalis was the king who decided to transform the dwarfs (back?) into stone. Joko got as powerful as he did because he raised an army. Glint is the architect of multiple schemes, and she certainly didn't do everything by herself.

    The closest legend to being norn-like is Shiro, since in his first life, he did appear to be someone who went around doing stuff on his own... but even then, it's mentioned early in Factions that he did in fact have a guild so he wasn't as much of a loner as all that, and the Jade Wind came about because he exploited an aspect of the culture he came from. And then when he returned, what do you know? He created an army. Two of them, technically - one that just kinda appeared in his wake, and one he constructed deliberately.

    The norn drive to build their individual legends means that across history you've probably got a lot of norn who will have songs sung about them for centuries... but few that quite managed to have the impact to become a revenant legend, because achieving that sort of impact is something that's hard to do alone. Compounding that is that norn themselves seem to have a relatively low population (so even if their average population is more impressive than the average human or charr, the most impressive humans and charr might actually outstrip the most impressive norn simply because of the effect of numbers) and the fact that norn have generally been fairly passive when it comes to world history: as focused as they are on building their personal legend, the norn as a whole have generally remained in their own territory and rarely set out to change the world like members of other races have. The typical norn is happy trying to prove themselves to be the best monster hunter or the best smith or the best whatever of their time, but this is a personal quest of self-improvement and demonstration of personal prowess - it's not in the general norn mindset to set out to change the world.

    This doesn't mean that it never happens, just that norn culture doesn't actually do anything to create more revenant-level legends than other races. Instead, you get a series of norn trying to be the best brewer, the best thief, the best wurmslayer, or whatever of their time, and there are plenty of members of other races that are exceptional smiths, brewers, and monster hunters. If anything, it makes norn less likely to do so - because when a human or charr has vision, ambition, and can establish themselves enough that they're respected by their peers, they can usually get their peers to rally behind them. A norn who has that sort of ambition is more likely to just have the other norn look at them and go "well, go ahead then, but we'll keep doing our own thing". We can look at EOTN for an example - Olaf Olafson is described as being among the most respected norn of his time, and even he only managed to rally together four other norn, one of whom is his own daughter, and all of which already had a personal connection to the PC... and this was to fight something that was potentially an existential threat to the norn. As much as the norn like to boast about five of them being worth an army... it really isn't.

    I sympathise and agree with wanting to have a norn legend, but I think we need to be realistic about who really meets the criteria. Drawing up a list of every named norn of any significance whatsoever doesn't help the case, because when push comes to shove, most of them really aren't that significant.

    Insightful. I think Asgeir Dragonrender, Svanir, and Jora are the only candidates for a norn legend.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    The last ones in the list can't be legend. A brewer and a storyteller are no fighters. And NPCs that died during low level content from current game do not deserve to be.

    Kalla wasn't really worthy either, she died as a martyr and had no real power. She as a legend is a "weak" choice due to the fact that she was merely another charr warrior, sure she created a ripple but of all the powerful things to conjure into ones self Id of assumed they'd of chosen something stronger. If kalla can be a legend, then a brewer who created EIGHT different highly toxic and deadly poisons in pursuit of his craft can be one. And remember all norn are warriors, no matter their profession they are expected to be capable of fighting and need to do so to survive. So even a brewer would be more then a match for a regular human/charr.

    Norn are legends, they desire to become legendary and ANY NORN who has a story told through-out their society and beyond could be a candidate. Sure would it be lame? Yea thats true it could be, but I mean kalla exists and she isn't really cream of the crop either. Ill take any norn I can get as long as we get a norn legend, Id like one just one norn legend to be based around them and their aesthetic. We have a charr one, we have a human one, Sylvari have one... and some netural ones. I think each race can be represented....

    Zin would be a great one for asura, a mad scientist who is constantly badgering the player about needing more "Test subjects".

    The ripple is kinda the point, though: Kalla was the catalyst that overturned charr society as it was then and made it into what it is now. The only norn that can be said to be even close to having that sort of impact are Asgeir and Svanir, and even then, norn society hasn't had the complete turnaround that the overthrow of the Flame Legion produced. Apart from moving location and maybe being a little less individualistic and belligerent (remember the GW1 norn that wouldn't even talk to you until you fought them?) norn haven't really changed much.

    Inventing a set of poisons or holding a position that has passed on from predecessor to successor like being a havroun just doesn't even approach that scale.

    Havrouns go through ALOT to become what they are. And they kind of dictate and control each tribe of norn so the Bear Havroun has complete dominion on guiding the bear-born norn. Asgeir did change the norn in that he had to create hoelbrak and made the prophecy of the fang, their entire way of life right now is based on the foundations on what he created. He not only saved them but he is as far as we know the only being blessed by ALL of the spirits of the wild, he killed frostfang and injured jormag. I think he is a heavy weight in this debate~

    Svanir is also pretty heavy and changed a lot for the norn, he basically was the first icebrood and honestly seems like the most dangerous. The damage he caused and the devastation he unleashed far at least from what we see in game outweighs the kind of destruction modern Son's of Svanir are capable of. I feel like either one is more than worthy especially when compared to kalla, or mallyx even as mallyx REALLY didn't do anything besides remain in the realm of torment and get farmed. Mallyx is a real head-scratcher because he isn't relevant to the story of either game very much... he was a side outing but one that had little that could be said is a ripple effect. (Kanaxai and Urgoz were WAAAAY bigger of a deal.)

    Havrouns might be important and there might be some impressive acts required to get that position, but it is still part of a chain of predecessors and successors. If all someone has going for them is that they have the title of 'havroun', they're no more legendary than a human king or a charr imperator - just one more link in a chain. (Admittedly, kings are hereditary while havrouns and imperators are at least somewhat meritocratic in their selection, but the principle remains - what makes this havroun more impressive than any of the dozens that preceded or followed them through history?)

    But there was only one rebellion that overthrew the shamans. There is only one Dragonrender who fought Jormag to the negotiating table and led the norn south. Only one Svanir which the Sons of Svanir now claim to have their inspiration from (although I question how much influence Svanir actually had - it seems entirely likely that there would still have been a Jormag cult among the norn regardless). Or to pick a human example, only one first king of a united Orr, Ascalon, and Kryta who petitioned the gods to reduce the power of magic to preserve the world.

    That's the sort of thing that seems to be required to be a revenant legend. Can't just be the next holder of a title, however impressive that title is. You need to have done something that is entirely unique to you which is impressive enough to leave echoes in the Mists.

    Furthermore, while I might be misremembering, I do recall that there was a statement around the time that Stronghold was being promoted that the heroes you can channel in Stronghold are echoes of individuals who were impressive enough to leave an impression on the Mists, but not so impressive that their echo is strong enough to serve as the basis of a revenant legend. If I am remembering correctly, this sets a minimum level of what it takes - a revenant legend must be someone who was more important to history than Turai freaking Ossa.

    Some random havroun or a guy who's legend is based around his skill at brewing need not apply.

    The point was Id take any norn, over another human or charr. Im so fizzled out on human and charr stuff right now that its insane, I want more norn and Im tired of feeling like the race as a whole is a back burner race meant for comic relief and to be the punching bag. Quite literally nothing overly impressive or interesting regarding the norn has happened since launch; Even then it was kind of hit or miss. We list Eir, we've lost our cool racial uniqueness and now we are being denied a legend in the revenants lists when by all standards we should probably have more legends worthy of being in that poll than most races do in the history of tyria. But then again most of the legends aren't known(or are extremely vauge.) because most of the time norn get no shine or focus.

    This saga was supposed to be different, thus far the only thing that has happened is they've elaborated on Asgeir's feat. And we've had some svanir action, outside of that its all charr kitten again. More charr focus, charr victim complexes and more of the same stuff we've had the entire time the game has been out with everyone and everything taking center stage..... other than the norn.

    I'd question the assertion that norn should have more suitable candidates than any other race. Yes, they have the drive to prove themselves as a primary racial motivator... but while this means the average norn is generally more impressive than the average member of other races, their overall focus on individual accomplishment hinders them from ever becoming truly legendary, because that usually requires having a larger impact on the world than one person, however impressive, can achieve on their own.

    Look at the existing legends. Kalla was a leader. So was Mallyx. Ventari is a legend primarily due to the effect of his philosophies on the sylvari - there's a reason all of his legend skills are focused around the Tablet. Jalis was the king who decided to transform the dwarfs (back?) into stone. Joko got as powerful as he did because he raised an army. Glint is the architect of multiple schemes, and she certainly didn't do everything by herself.

    The closest legend to being norn-like is Shiro, since in his first life, he did appear to be someone who went around doing stuff on his own... but even then, it's mentioned early in Factions that he did in fact have a guild so he wasn't as much of a loner as all that, and the Jade Wind came about because he exploited an aspect of the culture he came from. And then when he returned, what do you know? He created an army. Two of them, technically - one that just kinda appeared in his wake, and one he constructed deliberately.

    The norn drive to build their individual legends means that across history you've probably got a lot of norn who will have songs sung about them for centuries... but few that quite managed to have the impact to become a revenant legend, because achieving that sort of impact is something that's hard to do alone. Compounding that is that norn themselves seem to have a relatively low population (so even if their average population is more impressive than the average human or charr, the most impressive humans and charr might actually outstrip the most impressive norn simply because of the effect of numbers) and the fact that norn have generally been fairly passive when it comes to world history: as focused as they are on building their personal legend, the norn as a whole have generally remained in their own territory and rarely set out to change the world like members of other races have. The typical norn is happy trying to prove themselves to be the best monster hunter or the best smith or the best whatever of their time, but this is a personal quest of self-improvement and demonstration of personal prowess - it's not in the general norn mindset to set out to change the world.

    This doesn't mean that it never happens, just that norn culture doesn't actually do anything to create more revenant-level legends than other races. Instead, you get a series of norn trying to be the best brewer, the best thief, the best wurmslayer, or whatever of their time, and there are plenty of members of other races that are exceptional smiths, brewers, and monster hunters. If anything, it makes norn less likely to do so - because when a human or charr has vision, ambition, and can establish themselves enough that they're respected by their peers, they can usually get their peers to rally behind them. A norn who has that sort of ambition is more likely to just have the other norn look at them and go "well, go ahead then, but we'll keep doing our own thing". We can look at EOTN for an example - Olaf Olafson is described as being among the most respected norn of his time, and even he only managed to rally together four other norn, one of whom is his own daughter, and all of which already had a personal connection to the PC... and this was to fight something that was potentially an existential threat to the norn. As much as the norn like to boast about five of them being worth an army... it really isn't.

    I sympathise and agree with wanting to have a norn legend, but I think we need to be realistic about who really meets the criteria. Drawing up a list of every named norn of any significance whatsoever doesn't help the case, because when push comes to shove, most of them really aren't that significant.

    The only reason this is the case is because A-net has actively disregarded and refused to flush them out in any capacity once so ever. I mean quite literally we've spent almost no time at all with them, their people or their culture and know next to nothing about them. Id argue that should they decide not to just ignore them they COULD be something interesting, regardless if the next legend is some other human trash ill probably drop rev for the foreseeable future. I really just can't be bothered to care about the lore anymore, when every-time I turn around its being sent through a blender. Togo is not worthy in my opinion, he was a worthless old man who died and much like ventari (Ventari is ONLY significant to the sylvari.) He didn't do as much as one might claim they did. Ventari is a perfect example as to something that is not necessarily legend material; But because the game had a heavy focus on the sylvari at the base game and HoT they added him.

    Ventari did next to nothing of significance I mean even tybalt did more than ventari, and he only spent a very short time with us in cannon. Id say Olaf is more worthy than Ventari because he did rally four norn, whom fought alongside the PC to end the destroyer threat. Svanir, Asgeir, Jora are all more than worthy to become a legend for the revenants, more so than some rando horse man who helped plant people learn to not be complete arses (And in some cases he failed to do so, the tablet doesn't really effect their culture as much as it should considering the reverence they show it.) Im so sick of being ignored, disregarded and almost kitten on by the community AND A-net themselves and them handing us JUST ONE norn legend would go a long way. But they probably never will due to their blatant dislike of the race, their blatant disregard of the race and the community's blatant biased Ire.

    A shame, a cool concept and interesting species and all it gets is the shaft. Meanwhile cow-cat monsters become center focus alongside some humans in a generic fantasy setting where the cats equate to orcs, and the humans are humans. Fantastic. Wonderful. Why bother even creating, or having anything other than these two and the sylvari? Clearly that is all they care about. The two other races (Asura less so, due to their heavy focus in the living world and the fact they help solve all our problems) Get ignored.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    The last ones in the list can't be legend. A brewer and a storyteller are no fighters. And NPCs that died during low level content from current game do not deserve to be.

    Kalla wasn't really worthy either, she died as a martyr and had no real power. She as a legend is a "weak" choice due to the fact that she was merely another charr warrior, sure she created a ripple but of all the powerful things to conjure into ones self Id of assumed they'd of chosen something stronger. If kalla can be a legend, then a brewer who created EIGHT different highly toxic and deadly poisons in pursuit of his craft can be one. And remember all norn are warriors, no matter their profession they are expected to be capable of fighting and need to do so to survive. So even a brewer would be more then a match for a regular human/charr.

    Norn are legends, they desire to become legendary and ANY NORN who has a story told through-out their society and beyond could be a candidate. Sure would it be lame? Yea thats true it could be, but I mean kalla exists and she isn't really cream of the crop either. Ill take any norn I can get as long as we get a norn legend, Id like one just one norn legend to be based around them and their aesthetic. We have a charr one, we have a human one, Sylvari have one... and some netural ones. I think each race can be represented....

    Zin would be a great one for asura, a mad scientist who is constantly badgering the player about needing more "Test subjects".

    The ripple is kinda the point, though: Kalla was the catalyst that overturned charr society as it was then and made it into what it is now. The only norn that can be said to be even close to having that sort of impact are Asgeir and Svanir, and even then, norn society hasn't had the complete turnaround that the overthrow of the Flame Legion produced. Apart from moving location and maybe being a little less individualistic and belligerent (remember the GW1 norn that wouldn't even talk to you until you fought them?) norn haven't really changed much.

    Inventing a set of poisons or holding a position that has passed on from predecessor to successor like being a havroun just doesn't even approach that scale.

    Havrouns go through ALOT to become what they are. And they kind of dictate and control each tribe of norn so the Bear Havroun has complete dominion on guiding the bear-born norn. Asgeir did change the norn in that he had to create hoelbrak and made the prophecy of the fang, their entire way of life right now is based on the foundations on what he created. He not only saved them but he is as far as we know the only being blessed by ALL of the spirits of the wild, he killed frostfang and injured jormag. I think he is a heavy weight in this debate~

    Svanir is also pretty heavy and changed a lot for the norn, he basically was the first icebrood and honestly seems like the most dangerous. The damage he caused and the devastation he unleashed far at least from what we see in game outweighs the kind of destruction modern Son's of Svanir are capable of. I feel like either one is more than worthy especially when compared to kalla, or mallyx even as mallyx REALLY didn't do anything besides remain in the realm of torment and get farmed. Mallyx is a real head-scratcher because he isn't relevant to the story of either game very much... he was a side outing but one that had little that could be said is a ripple effect. (Kanaxai and Urgoz were WAAAAY bigger of a deal.)

    Havrouns might be important and there might be some impressive acts required to get that position, but it is still part of a chain of predecessors and successors. If all someone has going for them is that they have the title of 'havroun', they're no more legendary than a human king or a charr imperator - just one more link in a chain. (Admittedly, kings are hereditary while havrouns and imperators are at least somewhat meritocratic in their selection, but the principle remains - what makes this havroun more impressive than any of the dozens that preceded or followed them through history?)

    But there was only one rebellion that overthrew the shamans. There is only one Dragonrender who fought Jormag to the negotiating table and led the norn south. Only one Svanir which the Sons of Svanir now claim to have their inspiration from (although I question how much influence Svanir actually had - it seems entirely likely that there would still have been a Jormag cult among the norn regardless). Or to pick a human example, only one first king of a united Orr, Ascalon, and Kryta who petitioned the gods to reduce the power of magic to preserve the world.

    That's the sort of thing that seems to be required to be a revenant legend. Can't just be the next holder of a title, however impressive that title is. You need to have done something that is entirely unique to you which is impressive enough to leave echoes in the Mists.

    Furthermore, while I might be misremembering, I do recall that there was a statement around the time that Stronghold was being promoted that the heroes you can channel in Stronghold are echoes of individuals who were impressive enough to leave an impression on the Mists, but not so impressive that their echo is strong enough to serve as the basis of a revenant legend. If I am remembering correctly, this sets a minimum level of what it takes - a revenant legend must be someone who was more important to history than Turai freaking Ossa.

    Some random havroun or a guy who's legend is based around his skill at brewing need not apply.

    The point was Id take any norn, over another human or charr. Im so fizzled out on human and charr stuff right now that its insane, I want more norn and Im tired of feeling like the race as a whole is a back burner race meant for comic relief and to be the punching bag. Quite literally nothing overly impressive or interesting regarding the norn has happened since launch; Even then it was kind of hit or miss. We list Eir, we've lost our cool racial uniqueness and now we are being denied a legend in the revenants lists when by all standards we should probably have more legends worthy of being in that poll than most races do in the history of tyria. But then again most of the legends aren't known(or are extremely vauge.) because most of the time norn get no shine or focus.

    This saga was supposed to be different, thus far the only thing that has happened is they've elaborated on Asgeir's feat. And we've had some svanir action, outside of that its all charr kitten again. More charr focus, charr victim complexes and more of the same stuff we've had the entire time the game has been out with everyone and everything taking center stage..... other than the norn.

    I'd question the assertion that norn should have more suitable candidates than any other race. Yes, they have the drive to prove themselves as a primary racial motivator... but while this means the average norn is generally more impressive than the average member of other races, their overall focus on individual accomplishment hinders them from ever becoming truly legendary, because that usually requires having a larger impact on the world than one person, however impressive, can achieve on their own.

    Look at the existing legends. Kalla was a leader. So was Mallyx. Ventari is a legend primarily due to the effect of his philosophies on the sylvari - there's a reason all of his legend skills are focused around the Tablet. Jalis was the king who decided to transform the dwarfs (back?) into stone. Joko got as powerful as he did because he raised an army. Glint is the architect of multiple schemes, and she certainly didn't do everything by herself.

    The closest legend to being norn-like is Shiro, since in his first life, he did appear to be someone who went around doing stuff on his own... but even then, it's mentioned early in Factions that he did in fact have a guild so he wasn't as much of a loner as all that, and the Jade Wind came about because he exploited an aspect of the culture he came from. And then when he returned, what do you know? He created an army. Two of them, technically - one that just kinda appeared in his wake, and one he constructed deliberately.

    The norn drive to build their individual legends means that across history you've probably got a lot of norn who will have songs sung about them for centuries... but few that quite managed to have the impact to become a revenant legend, because achieving that sort of impact is something that's hard to do alone. Compounding that is that norn themselves seem to have a relatively low population (so even if their average population is more impressive than the average human or charr, the most impressive humans and charr might actually outstrip the most impressive norn simply because of the effect of numbers) and the fact that norn have generally been fairly passive when it comes to world history: as focused as they are on building their personal legend, the norn as a whole have generally remained in their own territory and rarely set out to change the world like members of other races have. The typical norn is happy trying to prove themselves to be the best monster hunter or the best smith or the best whatever of their time, but this is a personal quest of self-improvement and demonstration of personal prowess - it's not in the general norn mindset to set out to change the world.

    This doesn't mean that it never happens, just that norn culture doesn't actually do anything to create more revenant-level legends than other races. Instead, you get a series of norn trying to be the best brewer, the best thief, the best wurmslayer, or whatever of their time, and there are plenty of members of other races that are exceptional smiths, brewers, and monster hunters. If anything, it makes norn less likely to do so - because when a human or charr has vision, ambition, and can establish themselves enough that they're respected by their peers, they can usually get their peers to rally behind them. A norn who has that sort of ambition is more likely to just have the other norn look at them and go "well, go ahead then, but we'll keep doing our own thing". We can look at EOTN for an example - Olaf Olafson is described as being among the most respected norn of his time, and even he only managed to rally together four other norn, one of whom is his own daughter, and all of which already had a personal connection to the PC... and this was to fight something that was potentially an existential threat to the norn. As much as the norn like to boast about five of them being worth an army... it really isn't.

    I sympathise and agree with wanting to have a norn legend, but I think we need to be realistic about who really meets the criteria. Drawing up a list of every named norn of any significance whatsoever doesn't help the case, because when push comes to shove, most of them really aren't that significant.

    The only reason this is the case is because A-net has actively disregarded and refused to flush them out in any capacity once so ever. I mean quite literally we've spent almost no time at all with them, their people or their culture and know next to nothing about them. Id argue that should they decide not to just ignore them they COULD be something interesting, regardless if the next legend is some other human trash ill probably drop rev for the foreseeable future. I really just can't be bothered to care about the lore anymore, when every-time I turn around its being sent through a blender. Togo is not worthy in my opinion, he was a worthless old man who died and much like ventari (Ventari is ONLY significant to the sylvari.) He didn't do as much as one might claim they did. Ventari is a perfect example as to something that is not necessarily legend material; But because the game had a heavy focus on the sylvari at the base game and HoT they added him.

    Ventari did next to nothing of significance I mean even tybalt did more than ventari, and he only spent a very short time with us in cannon. Id say Olaf is more worthy than Ventari because he did rally four norn, whom fought alongside the PC to end the destroyer threat. Svanir, Asgeir, Jora are all more than worthy to become a legend for the revenants, more so than some rando horse man who helped plant people learn to not be complete arses (And in some cases he failed to do so, the tablet doesn't really effect their culture as much as it should considering the reverence they show it.) Im so sick of being ignored, disregarded and almost kitten on by the community AND A-net themselves and them handing us JUST ONE norn legend would go a long way. But they probably never will due to their blatant dislike of the race, their blatant disregard of the race and the community's blatant biased Ire.

    A shame, a cool concept and interesting species and all it gets is the shaft. Meanwhile cow-cat monsters become center focus alongside some humans in a generic fantasy setting where the cats equate to orcs, and the humans are humans. Fantastic. Wonderful. Why bother even creating, or having anything other than these two and the sylvari? Clearly that is all they care about. The two other races (Asura less so, due to their heavy focus in the living world and the fact they help solve all our problems) Get ignored.

    Ventari influenced the whole Sylvari culture. That's something significant.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    The last ones in the list can't be legend. A brewer and a storyteller are no fighters. And NPCs that died during low level content from current game do not deserve to be.

    Kalla wasn't really worthy either, she died as a martyr and had no real power. She as a legend is a "weak" choice due to the fact that she was merely another charr warrior, sure she created a ripple but of all the powerful things to conjure into ones self Id of assumed they'd of chosen something stronger. If kalla can be a legend, then a brewer who created EIGHT different highly toxic and deadly poisons in pursuit of his craft can be one. And remember all norn are warriors, no matter their profession they are expected to be capable of fighting and need to do so to survive. So even a brewer would be more then a match for a regular human/charr.

    Norn are legends, they desire to become legendary and ANY NORN who has a story told through-out their society and beyond could be a candidate. Sure would it be lame? Yea thats true it could be, but I mean kalla exists and she isn't really cream of the crop either. Ill take any norn I can get as long as we get a norn legend, Id like one just one norn legend to be based around them and their aesthetic. We have a charr one, we have a human one, Sylvari have one... and some netural ones. I think each race can be represented....

    Zin would be a great one for asura, a mad scientist who is constantly badgering the player about needing more "Test subjects".

    The ripple is kinda the point, though: Kalla was the catalyst that overturned charr society as it was then and made it into what it is now. The only norn that can be said to be even close to having that sort of impact are Asgeir and Svanir, and even then, norn society hasn't had the complete turnaround that the overthrow of the Flame Legion produced. Apart from moving location and maybe being a little less individualistic and belligerent (remember the GW1 norn that wouldn't even talk to you until you fought them?) norn haven't really changed much.

    Inventing a set of poisons or holding a position that has passed on from predecessor to successor like being a havroun just doesn't even approach that scale.

    Havrouns go through ALOT to become what they are. And they kind of dictate and control each tribe of norn so the Bear Havroun has complete dominion on guiding the bear-born norn. Asgeir did change the norn in that he had to create hoelbrak and made the prophecy of the fang, their entire way of life right now is based on the foundations on what he created. He not only saved them but he is as far as we know the only being blessed by ALL of the spirits of the wild, he killed frostfang and injured jormag. I think he is a heavy weight in this debate~

    Svanir is also pretty heavy and changed a lot for the norn, he basically was the first icebrood and honestly seems like the most dangerous. The damage he caused and the devastation he unleashed far at least from what we see in game outweighs the kind of destruction modern Son's of Svanir are capable of. I feel like either one is more than worthy especially when compared to kalla, or mallyx even as mallyx REALLY didn't do anything besides remain in the realm of torment and get farmed. Mallyx is a real head-scratcher because he isn't relevant to the story of either game very much... he was a side outing but one that had little that could be said is a ripple effect. (Kanaxai and Urgoz were WAAAAY bigger of a deal.)

    Havrouns might be important and there might be some impressive acts required to get that position, but it is still part of a chain of predecessors and successors. If all someone has going for them is that they have the title of 'havroun', they're no more legendary than a human king or a charr imperator - just one more link in a chain. (Admittedly, kings are hereditary while havrouns and imperators are at least somewhat meritocratic in their selection, but the principle remains - what makes this havroun more impressive than any of the dozens that preceded or followed them through history?)

    But there was only one rebellion that overthrew the shamans. There is only one Dragonrender who fought Jormag to the negotiating table and led the norn south. Only one Svanir which the Sons of Svanir now claim to have their inspiration from (although I question how much influence Svanir actually had - it seems entirely likely that there would still have been a Jormag cult among the norn regardless). Or to pick a human example, only one first king of a united Orr, Ascalon, and Kryta who petitioned the gods to reduce the power of magic to preserve the world.

    That's the sort of thing that seems to be required to be a revenant legend. Can't just be the next holder of a title, however impressive that title is. You need to have done something that is entirely unique to you which is impressive enough to leave echoes in the Mists.

    Furthermore, while I might be misremembering, I do recall that there was a statement around the time that Stronghold was being promoted that the heroes you can channel in Stronghold are echoes of individuals who were impressive enough to leave an impression on the Mists, but not so impressive that their echo is strong enough to serve as the basis of a revenant legend. If I am remembering correctly, this sets a minimum level of what it takes - a revenant legend must be someone who was more important to history than Turai freaking Ossa.

    Some random havroun or a guy who's legend is based around his skill at brewing need not apply.

    The point was Id take any norn, over another human or charr. Im so fizzled out on human and charr stuff right now that its insane, I want more norn and Im tired of feeling like the race as a whole is a back burner race meant for comic relief and to be the punching bag. Quite literally nothing overly impressive or interesting regarding the norn has happened since launch; Even then it was kind of hit or miss. We list Eir, we've lost our cool racial uniqueness and now we are being denied a legend in the revenants lists when by all standards we should probably have more legends worthy of being in that poll than most races do in the history of tyria. But then again most of the legends aren't known(or are extremely vauge.) because most of the time norn get no shine or focus.

    This saga was supposed to be different, thus far the only thing that has happened is they've elaborated on Asgeir's feat. And we've had some svanir action, outside of that its all charr kitten again. More charr focus, charr victim complexes and more of the same stuff we've had the entire time the game has been out with everyone and everything taking center stage..... other than the norn.

    I'd question the assertion that norn should have more suitable candidates than any other race. Yes, they have the drive to prove themselves as a primary racial motivator... but while this means the average norn is generally more impressive than the average member of other races, their overall focus on individual accomplishment hinders them from ever becoming truly legendary, because that usually requires having a larger impact on the world than one person, however impressive, can achieve on their own.

    Look at the existing legends. Kalla was a leader. So was Mallyx. Ventari is a legend primarily due to the effect of his philosophies on the sylvari - there's a reason all of his legend skills are focused around the Tablet. Jalis was the king who decided to transform the dwarfs (back?) into stone. Joko got as powerful as he did because he raised an army. Glint is the architect of multiple schemes, and she certainly didn't do everything by herself.

    The closest legend to being norn-like is Shiro, since in his first life, he did appear to be someone who went around doing stuff on his own... but even then, it's mentioned early in Factions that he did in fact have a guild so he wasn't as much of a loner as all that, and the Jade Wind came about because he exploited an aspect of the culture he came from. And then when he returned, what do you know? He created an army. Two of them, technically - one that just kinda appeared in his wake, and one he constructed deliberately.

    The norn drive to build their individual legends means that across history you've probably got a lot of norn who will have songs sung about them for centuries... but few that quite managed to have the impact to become a revenant legend, because achieving that sort of impact is something that's hard to do alone. Compounding that is that norn themselves seem to have a relatively low population (so even if their average population is more impressive than the average human or charr, the most impressive humans and charr might actually outstrip the most impressive norn simply because of the effect of numbers) and the fact that norn have generally been fairly passive when it comes to world history: as focused as they are on building their personal legend, the norn as a whole have generally remained in their own territory and rarely set out to change the world like members of other races have. The typical norn is happy trying to prove themselves to be the best monster hunter or the best smith or the best whatever of their time, but this is a personal quest of self-improvement and demonstration of personal prowess - it's not in the general norn mindset to set out to change the world.

    This doesn't mean that it never happens, just that norn culture doesn't actually do anything to create more revenant-level legends than other races. Instead, you get a series of norn trying to be the best brewer, the best thief, the best wurmslayer, or whatever of their time, and there are plenty of members of other races that are exceptional smiths, brewers, and monster hunters. If anything, it makes norn less likely to do so - because when a human or charr has vision, ambition, and can establish themselves enough that they're respected by their peers, they can usually get their peers to rally behind them. A norn who has that sort of ambition is more likely to just have the other norn look at them and go "well, go ahead then, but we'll keep doing our own thing". We can look at EOTN for an example - Olaf Olafson is described as being among the most respected norn of his time, and even he only managed to rally together four other norn, one of whom is his own daughter, and all of which already had a personal connection to the PC... and this was to fight something that was potentially an existential threat to the norn. As much as the norn like to boast about five of them being worth an army... it really isn't.

    I sympathise and agree with wanting to have a norn legend, but I think we need to be realistic about who really meets the criteria. Drawing up a list of every named norn of any significance whatsoever doesn't help the case, because when push comes to shove, most of them really aren't that significant.

    The only reason this is the case is because A-net has actively disregarded and refused to flush them out in any capacity once so ever. I mean quite literally we've spent almost no time at all with them, their people or their culture and know next to nothing about them. Id argue that should they decide not to just ignore them they COULD be something interesting, regardless if the next legend is some other human trash ill probably drop rev for the foreseeable future. I really just can't be bothered to care about the lore anymore, when every-time I turn around its being sent through a blender. Togo is not worthy in my opinion, he was a worthless old man who died and much like ventari (Ventari is ONLY significant to the sylvari.) He didn't do as much as one might claim they did. Ventari is a perfect example as to something that is not necessarily legend material; But because the game had a heavy focus on the sylvari at the base game and HoT they added him.

    Ventari did next to nothing of significance I mean even tybalt did more than ventari, and he only spent a very short time with us in cannon. Id say Olaf is more worthy than Ventari because he did rally four norn, whom fought alongside the PC to end the destroyer threat. Svanir, Asgeir, Jora are all more than worthy to become a legend for the revenants, more so than some rando horse man who helped plant people learn to not be complete arses (And in some cases he failed to do so, the tablet doesn't really effect their culture as much as it should considering the reverence they show it.) Im so sick of being ignored, disregarded and almost kitten on by the community AND A-net themselves and them handing us JUST ONE norn legend would go a long way. But they probably never will due to their blatant dislike of the race, their blatant disregard of the race and the community's blatant biased Ire.

    A shame, a cool concept and interesting species and all it gets is the shaft. Meanwhile cow-cat monsters become center focus alongside some humans in a generic fantasy setting where the cats equate to orcs, and the humans are humans. Fantastic. Wonderful. Why bother even creating, or having anything other than these two and the sylvari? Clearly that is all they care about. The two other races (Asura less so, due to their heavy focus in the living world and the fact they help solve all our problems) Get ignored.

    Ventari influenced the whole Sylvari culture. That's something significant.

    yes, but its not as significant as saving your entire race. Killing a dragon champion, injuring an elder dragon (Prior to the whole pact and zaithan arc) AND being blessed by not one but ALL of the spirits of the wild. Asgeir> Ventari. If anyone norn is worthy its Asgeir 100% Actually Im pretty sure he is the most likely, and worthy candidate to be a legend because simply put he is on a level of power that is enough to "Rival" an elder dragon. He wrestled jormag to a negotiation, and made the norn earn the dragons respect he is literally the All-might of the norn. If they don't do him and go with togo or some other trash, ill be severely disappointed.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    The last ones in the list can't be legend. A brewer and a storyteller are no fighters. And NPCs that died during low level content from current game do not deserve to be.

    Kalla wasn't really worthy either, she died as a martyr and had no real power. She as a legend is a "weak" choice due to the fact that she was merely another charr warrior, sure she created a ripple but of all the powerful things to conjure into ones self Id of assumed they'd of chosen something stronger. If kalla can be a legend, then a brewer who created EIGHT different highly toxic and deadly poisons in pursuit of his craft can be one. And remember all norn are warriors, no matter their profession they are expected to be capable of fighting and need to do so to survive. So even a brewer would be more then a match for a regular human/charr.

    Norn are legends, they desire to become legendary and ANY NORN who has a story told through-out their society and beyond could be a candidate. Sure would it be lame? Yea thats true it could be, but I mean kalla exists and she isn't really cream of the crop either. Ill take any norn I can get as long as we get a norn legend, Id like one just one norn legend to be based around them and their aesthetic. We have a charr one, we have a human one, Sylvari have one... and some netural ones. I think each race can be represented....

    Zin would be a great one for asura, a mad scientist who is constantly badgering the player about needing more "Test subjects".

    The ripple is kinda the point, though: Kalla was the catalyst that overturned charr society as it was then and made it into what it is now. The only norn that can be said to be even close to having that sort of impact are Asgeir and Svanir, and even then, norn society hasn't had the complete turnaround that the overthrow of the Flame Legion produced. Apart from moving location and maybe being a little less individualistic and belligerent (remember the GW1 norn that wouldn't even talk to you until you fought them?) norn haven't really changed much.

    Inventing a set of poisons or holding a position that has passed on from predecessor to successor like being a havroun just doesn't even approach that scale.

    Havrouns go through ALOT to become what they are. And they kind of dictate and control each tribe of norn so the Bear Havroun has complete dominion on guiding the bear-born norn. Asgeir did change the norn in that he had to create hoelbrak and made the prophecy of the fang, their entire way of life right now is based on the foundations on what he created. He not only saved them but he is as far as we know the only being blessed by ALL of the spirits of the wild, he killed frostfang and injured jormag. I think he is a heavy weight in this debate~

    Svanir is also pretty heavy and changed a lot for the norn, he basically was the first icebrood and honestly seems like the most dangerous. The damage he caused and the devastation he unleashed far at least from what we see in game outweighs the kind of destruction modern Son's of Svanir are capable of. I feel like either one is more than worthy especially when compared to kalla, or mallyx even as mallyx REALLY didn't do anything besides remain in the realm of torment and get farmed. Mallyx is a real head-scratcher because he isn't relevant to the story of either game very much... he was a side outing but one that had little that could be said is a ripple effect. (Kanaxai and Urgoz were WAAAAY bigger of a deal.)

    Havrouns might be important and there might be some impressive acts required to get that position, but it is still part of a chain of predecessors and successors. If all someone has going for them is that they have the title of 'havroun', they're no more legendary than a human king or a charr imperator - just one more link in a chain. (Admittedly, kings are hereditary while havrouns and imperators are at least somewhat meritocratic in their selection, but the principle remains - what makes this havroun more impressive than any of the dozens that preceded or followed them through history?)

    But there was only one rebellion that overthrew the shamans. There is only one Dragonrender who fought Jormag to the negotiating table and led the norn south. Only one Svanir which the Sons of Svanir now claim to have their inspiration from (although I question how much influence Svanir actually had - it seems entirely likely that there would still have been a Jormag cult among the norn regardless). Or to pick a human example, only one first king of a united Orr, Ascalon, and Kryta who petitioned the gods to reduce the power of magic to preserve the world.

    That's the sort of thing that seems to be required to be a revenant legend. Can't just be the next holder of a title, however impressive that title is. You need to have done something that is entirely unique to you which is impressive enough to leave echoes in the Mists.

    Furthermore, while I might be misremembering, I do recall that there was a statement around the time that Stronghold was being promoted that the heroes you can channel in Stronghold are echoes of individuals who were impressive enough to leave an impression on the Mists, but not so impressive that their echo is strong enough to serve as the basis of a revenant legend. If I am remembering correctly, this sets a minimum level of what it takes - a revenant legend must be someone who was more important to history than Turai freaking Ossa.

    Some random havroun or a guy who's legend is based around his skill at brewing need not apply.

    The point was Id take any norn, over another human or charr. Im so fizzled out on human and charr stuff right now that its insane, I want more norn and Im tired of feeling like the race as a whole is a back burner race meant for comic relief and to be the punching bag. Quite literally nothing overly impressive or interesting regarding the norn has happened since launch; Even then it was kind of hit or miss. We list Eir, we've lost our cool racial uniqueness and now we are being denied a legend in the revenants lists when by all standards we should probably have more legends worthy of being in that poll than most races do in the history of tyria. But then again most of the legends aren't known(or are extremely vauge.) because most of the time norn get no shine or focus.

    This saga was supposed to be different, thus far the only thing that has happened is they've elaborated on Asgeir's feat. And we've had some svanir action, outside of that its all charr kitten again. More charr focus, charr victim complexes and more of the same stuff we've had the entire time the game has been out with everyone and everything taking center stage..... other than the norn.

    I'd question the assertion that norn should have more suitable candidates than any other race. Yes, they have the drive to prove themselves as a primary racial motivator... but while this means the average norn is generally more impressive than the average member of other races, their overall focus on individual accomplishment hinders them from ever becoming truly legendary, because that usually requires having a larger impact on the world than one person, however impressive, can achieve on their own.

    Look at the existing legends. Kalla was a leader. So was Mallyx. Ventari is a legend primarily due to the effect of his philosophies on the sylvari - there's a reason all of his legend skills are focused around the Tablet. Jalis was the king who decided to transform the dwarfs (back?) into stone. Joko got as powerful as he did because he raised an army. Glint is the architect of multiple schemes, and she certainly didn't do everything by herself.

    The closest legend to being norn-like is Shiro, since in his first life, he did appear to be someone who went around doing stuff on his own... but even then, it's mentioned early in Factions that he did in fact have a guild so he wasn't as much of a loner as all that, and the Jade Wind came about because he exploited an aspect of the culture he came from. And then when he returned, what do you know? He created an army. Two of them, technically - one that just kinda appeared in his wake, and one he constructed deliberately.

    The norn drive to build their individual legends means that across history you've probably got a lot of norn who will have songs sung about them for centuries... but few that quite managed to have the impact to become a revenant legend, because achieving that sort of impact is something that's hard to do alone. Compounding that is that norn themselves seem to have a relatively low population (so even if their average population is more impressive than the average human or charr, the most impressive humans and charr might actually outstrip the most impressive norn simply because of the effect of numbers) and the fact that norn have generally been fairly passive when it comes to world history: as focused as they are on building their personal legend, the norn as a whole have generally remained in their own territory and rarely set out to change the world like members of other races have. The typical norn is happy trying to prove themselves to be the best monster hunter or the best smith or the best whatever of their time, but this is a personal quest of self-improvement and demonstration of personal prowess - it's not in the general norn mindset to set out to change the world.

    This doesn't mean that it never happens, just that norn culture doesn't actually do anything to create more revenant-level legends than other races. Instead, you get a series of norn trying to be the best brewer, the best thief, the best wurmslayer, or whatever of their time, and there are plenty of members of other races that are exceptional smiths, brewers, and monster hunters. If anything, it makes norn less likely to do so - because when a human or charr has vision, ambition, and can establish themselves enough that they're respected by their peers, they can usually get their peers to rally behind them. A norn who has that sort of ambition is more likely to just have the other norn look at them and go "well, go ahead then, but we'll keep doing our own thing". We can look at EOTN for an example - Olaf Olafson is described as being among the most respected norn of his time, and even he only managed to rally together four other norn, one of whom is his own daughter, and all of which already had a personal connection to the PC... and this was to fight something that was potentially an existential threat to the norn. As much as the norn like to boast about five of them being worth an army... it really isn't.

    I sympathise and agree with wanting to have a norn legend, but I think we need to be realistic about who really meets the criteria. Drawing up a list of every named norn of any significance whatsoever doesn't help the case, because when push comes to shove, most of them really aren't that significant.

    The only reason this is the case is because A-net has actively disregarded and refused to flush them out in any capacity once so ever. I mean quite literally we've spent almost no time at all with them, their people or their culture and know next to nothing about them. Id argue that should they decide not to just ignore them they COULD be something interesting, regardless if the next legend is some other human trash ill probably drop rev for the foreseeable future. I really just can't be bothered to care about the lore anymore, when every-time I turn around its being sent through a blender. Togo is not worthy in my opinion, he was a worthless old man who died and much like ventari (Ventari is ONLY significant to the sylvari.) He didn't do as much as one might claim they did. Ventari is a perfect example as to something that is not necessarily legend material; But because the game had a heavy focus on the sylvari at the base game and HoT they added him.

    Ventari did next to nothing of significance I mean even tybalt did more than ventari, and he only spent a very short time with us in cannon. Id say Olaf is more worthy than Ventari because he did rally four norn, whom fought alongside the PC to end the destroyer threat. Svanir, Asgeir, Jora are all more than worthy to become a legend for the revenants, more so than some rando horse man who helped plant people learn to not be complete arses (And in some cases he failed to do so, the tablet doesn't really effect their culture as much as it should considering the reverence they show it.) Im so sick of being ignored, disregarded and almost kitten on by the community AND A-net themselves and them handing us JUST ONE norn legend would go a long way. But they probably never will due to their blatant dislike of the race, their blatant disregard of the race and the community's blatant biased Ire.

    A shame, a cool concept and interesting species and all it gets is the shaft. Meanwhile cow-cat monsters become center focus alongside some humans in a generic fantasy setting where the cats equate to orcs, and the humans are humans. Fantastic. Wonderful. Why bother even creating, or having anything other than these two and the sylvari? Clearly that is all they care about. The two other races (Asura less so, due to their heavy focus in the living world and the fact they help solve all our problems) Get ignored.

    Ventari influenced the whole Sylvari culture. That's something significant.

    yes, but its not as significant as saving your entire race. Killing a dragon champion, injuring an elder dragon (Prior to the whole pact and zaithan arc) AND being blessed by not one but ALL of the spirits of the wild. Asgeir> Ventari. If anyone norn is worthy its Asgeir 100% Actually Im pretty sure he is the most likely, and worthy candidate to be a legend because simply put he is on a level of power that is enough to "Rival" an elder dragon. He wrestled jormag to a negotiation, and made the norn earn the dragons respect he is literally the All-might of the norn. If they don't do him and go with togo or some other trash, ill be severely disappointed.

    I agree that Asgeir is fitting to be a legend.
    Ventari was chose so we could have a heal/support legend.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    yes, but its not as significant as saving your entire race. Killing a dragon champion, injuring an elder dragon (Prior to the whole pact and zaithan arc) AND being blessed by not one but ALL of the spirits of the wild. Asgeir> Ventari. If anyone norn is worthy its Asgeir 100% Actually Im pretty sure he is the most likely, and worthy candidate to be a legend because simply put he is on a level of power that is enough to "Rival" an elder dragon. He wrestled jormag to a negotiation, and made the norn earn the dragons respect he is literally the All-might of the norn. If they don't do him and go with togo or some other trash, ill be severely disappointed.

    It kinda is. Sylvari culture as we currently know it simply wouldn't exist without Ventari. What we would have had instead isn't really known, but it wouldn't be what we have.

    Asgeir certainly is a possible candidate, but that's the level we're looking at. Anybody that comes in as a legend should either be a name that pretty much anyone with a basic familiarity with the lore immediately recognises, or something new that is presented with the context of why they're impressive. A character which shows up in an instance but which is largely forgettable, though, is probably not a suitable candidate.

  • Scoobaniec.9561Scoobaniec.9561 Member ✭✭✭

    Why do you care about lore when they gave Kalla a shortbow even tho she never used it to begin with?

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2020

    Throwing my 2c in. Jora would make the most sense with a new E-Spec that was Norn themed along with a greatsword. She was sword and board themed in GW1, but honestly if greatswords were in GW1 I think she would have used that instead.

    Also, I shamelessly have a female Norn Revenant and I would love a Jora Legend to go with it.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2020

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    yes, but its not as significant as saving your entire race. Killing a dragon champion, injuring an elder dragon (Prior to the whole pact and zaithan arc) AND being blessed by not one but ALL of the spirits of the wild. Asgeir> Ventari. If anyone norn is worthy its Asgeir 100% Actually Im pretty sure he is the most likely, and worthy candidate to be a legend because simply put he is on a level of power that is enough to "Rival" an elder dragon. He wrestled jormag to a negotiation, and made the norn earn the dragons respect he is literally the All-might of the norn. If they don't do him and go with togo or some other trash, ill be severely disappointed.

    It kinda is. Sylvari culture as we currently know it simply wouldn't exist without Ventari. What we would have had instead isn't really known, but it wouldn't be what we have.

    Asgeir certainly is a possible candidate, but that's the level we're looking at. Anybody that comes in as a legend should either be a name that pretty much anyone with a basic familiarity with the lore immediately recognises, or something new that is presented with the context of why they're impressive. A character which shows up in an instance but which is largely forgettable, though, is probably not a suitable candidate.

    So asgeir or svanir due to the impact they had.

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    Throwing my 2c in. Jora would make the most sense with a new E-Spec that was Norn themed along with a greatsword. She was sword and board themed in GW1, but honestly if greatswords were in GW1 I think she would have used that instead.

    Also, I shamelessly have a female Norn Revenant and I would love a Jora Legend to go with it.

    As much as Id be interested to see jora I don't feel like she is as significant of a figure as Svanir or Asgeir.. Mainly because while she did resist jormags corruption her brother spawned a death cult. And Asgeir could of killed jormag from the sounds of it, if not for frostfang and jormag tag teaming him and had he been allowed to face jormag 1 v 1 the lore and the book in Bjora hints that he could of overcome the dragon.

    Ventari influenced the culture of all sylvari, but so has Svanir and the norn. Love him, hate him regardless of how you feel about the man he is one of the most influential and recognized characters from their race.

    Asgeir is also the greatest of their heroes, but again I think we have seen enough heroes as legends.... we could use some darker legends.

    @Scoobaniec.9561 said:
    Why do you care about lore when they gave Kalla a shortbow even tho she never used it to begin with?

    Im not, I just want a norn legend. Something of the norn, A norn E-spec for revenant so I can be full theme. Kalla was and is a mess and it needs a rework because honestly the spec on its own (Legend function included) feels bleh. It felt uninspired and shortbow feels like poop, so I get where you're coming from but im not going at this on a strict lore basis. I was merely trying to give them candidates because we know A-net loves to "Subvert" our "Expectations"

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    yes, but its not as significant as saving your entire race. Killing a dragon champion, injuring an elder dragon (Prior to the whole pact and zaithan arc) AND being blessed by not one but ALL of the spirits of the wild. Asgeir> Ventari. If anyone norn is worthy its Asgeir 100% Actually Im pretty sure he is the most likely, and worthy candidate to be a legend because simply put he is on a level of power that is enough to "Rival" an elder dragon. He wrestled jormag to a negotiation, and made the norn earn the dragons respect he is literally the All-might of the norn. If they don't do him and go with togo or some other trash, ill be severely disappointed.

    It kinda is. Sylvari culture as we currently know it simply wouldn't exist without Ventari. What we would have had instead isn't really known, but it wouldn't be what we have.

    Asgeir certainly is a possible candidate, but that's the level we're looking at. Anybody that comes in as a legend should either be a name that pretty much anyone with a basic familiarity with the lore immediately recognises, or something new that is presented with the context of why they're impressive. A character which shows up in an instance but which is largely forgettable, though, is probably not a suitable candidate.

    So asgeir or svanir due to the impact they had.

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    Throwing my 2c in. Jora would make the most sense with a new E-Spec that was Norn themed along with a greatsword. She was sword and board themed in GW1, but honestly if greatswords were in GW1 I think she would have used that instead.

    Also, I shamelessly have a female Norn Revenant and I would love a Jora Legend to go with it.

    As much as Id be interested to see jora I don't feel like she is as significant of a figure as Svanir or Asgeir.. Mainly because while she did resist jormags corruption her brother spawned a death cult. And Asgeir could of killed jormag from the sounds of it, if not for frostfang and jormag tag teaming him and had he been allowed to face jormag 1 v 1 the lore and the book in Bjora hints that he could of overcome the dragon.

    Ventari influenced the culture of all sylvari, but so has Svanir and the norn. Love him, hate him regardless of how you feel about the man he is one of the most influential and recognized characters from their race.

    Asgeir is also the greatest of their heroes, but again I think we have seen enough heroes as legends.... we could use some darker legends.

    I think you are discounting the extent of Jora's Legend too much. There is a reason why you see so many of her statues around. Asgeir is recent all things considered and not one of the Norn's Legendary Heroes like Jora is, so his ranking as a possible Legend for a Revenant is a fair bit lower of the totem pole.

    I can see Svanir happening, would bring a chilling legend that is a bit darker.

    But sadly it seems we are going to Cantha, so odds are more likely that it will be a Tengu legend, assuming that the espec needs to be tied to the expansion lore/story wise. The new legend may reflect how we get there, like through some old Asuran tunnels/gates and be an Asuran legend, which is frankly sorely missing. It could be that we get there through the Domain of Wind, hence the Tengu, or via the Unending Ocean and the Largos.

    @Scoobaniec.9561 said:
    Why do you care about lore when they gave Kalla a shortbow even tho she never used it to begin with?

    Im not, I just want a norn legend. Something of the norn, A norn E-spec for revenant so I can be full theme. Kalla was and is a mess and it needs a rework because honestly the spec on its own (Legend function included) feels bleh. It felt uninspired and shortbow feels like poop, so I get where you're coming from but im not going at this on a strict lore basis. I was merely trying to give them candidates because we know A-net loves to "Subvert" our "Expectations"

  • Elric.4713Elric.4713 Member ✭✭✭

    I feel like even Arena net sees Norn as a joke race, a mistake. They should have embraced their shapeshifting side instead of making them just big goofy humans. Kinda like how Worgen are in WoW, you can have the human form out of combat but when they fight they embrace their Bear/Raven/Wolf form.
    I think we can safely assume that spirits of the wild or shapeshifting won't ever be a part of Revenant, for the same reasons Balthazar won't.

    👻Legendary Ritualist Stance - Invoke the power of the legendary ritualist Master Togo.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    yes, but its not as significant as saving your entire race. Killing a dragon champion, injuring an elder dragon (Prior to the whole pact and zaithan arc) AND being blessed by not one but ALL of the spirits of the wild. Asgeir> Ventari. If anyone norn is worthy its Asgeir 100% Actually Im pretty sure he is the most likely, and worthy candidate to be a legend because simply put he is on a level of power that is enough to "Rival" an elder dragon. He wrestled jormag to a negotiation, and made the norn earn the dragons respect he is literally the All-might of the norn. If they don't do him and go with togo or some other trash, ill be severely disappointed.

    It kinda is. Sylvari culture as we currently know it simply wouldn't exist without Ventari. What we would have had instead isn't really known, but it wouldn't be what we have.

    Asgeir certainly is a possible candidate, but that's the level we're looking at. Anybody that comes in as a legend should either be a name that pretty much anyone with a basic familiarity with the lore immediately recognises, or something new that is presented with the context of why they're impressive. A character which shows up in an instance but which is largely forgettable, though, is probably not a suitable candidate.

    So asgeir or svanir due to the impact they had.

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    Throwing my 2c in. Jora would make the most sense with a new E-Spec that was Norn themed along with a greatsword. She was sword and board themed in GW1, but honestly if greatswords were in GW1 I think she would have used that instead.

    Also, I shamelessly have a female Norn Revenant and I would love a Jora Legend to go with it.

    As much as Id be interested to see jora I don't feel like she is as significant of a figure as Svanir or Asgeir.. Mainly because while she did resist jormags corruption her brother spawned a death cult. And Asgeir could of killed jormag from the sounds of it, if not for frostfang and jormag tag teaming him and had he been allowed to face jormag 1 v 1 the lore and the book in Bjora hints that he could of overcome the dragon.

    Ventari influenced the culture of all sylvari, but so has Svanir and the norn. Love him, hate him regardless of how you feel about the man he is one of the most influential and recognized characters from their race.

    Asgeir is also the greatest of their heroes, but again I think we have seen enough heroes as legends.... we could use some darker legends.

    I think you are discounting the extent of Jora's Legend too much. There is a reason why you see so many of her statues around. Asgeir is recent all things considered and not one of the Norn's Legendary Heroes like Jora is, so his ranking as a possible Legend for a Revenant is a fair bit lower of the totem pole.

    I can see Svanir happening, would bring a chilling legend that is a bit darker.

    But sadly it seems we are going to Cantha, so odds are more likely that it will be a Tengu legend, assuming that the espec needs to be tied to the expansion lore/story wise. The new legend may reflect how we get there, like through some old Asuran tunnels/gates and be an Asuran legend, which is frankly sorely missing. It could be that we get there through the Domain of Wind, hence the Tengu, or via the Unending Ocean and the Largos.

    @Scoobaniec.9561 said:
    Why do you care about lore when they gave Kalla a shortbow even tho she never used it to begin with?

    Im not, I just want a norn legend. Something of the norn, A norn E-spec for revenant so I can be full theme. Kalla was and is a mess and it needs a rework because honestly the spec on its own (Legend function included) feels bleh. It felt uninspired and shortbow feels like poop, so I get where you're coming from but im not going at this on a strict lore basis. I was merely trying to give them candidates because we know A-net loves to "Subvert" our "Expectations"

    Kalla had so few ties to PoF its pathetic. To say that the legend will be linked to the lore of the land? Far fetched. Nothing provides that the legend itself will be for cantha. Kalla was chosen because she was legendary for facing down tyrany, and standing against the status quo. Svanir could be used for "Fighting against all odds, and winning" the kind of strength we will need facing down the extremist canthans and their race-puring ways. Honestly a Norn legend like jora, asgeir or svanir would be perfect for cantha as we know we wont have friends when we land. And we sure as heck will have to face down the empire due to their.... well views.

    @Elric.4713 said:
    I feel like even Arena net sees Norn as a joke race, a mistake. They should have embraced their shapeshifting side instead of making them just big goofy humans. Kinda like how Worgen are in WoW, you can have the human form out of combat but when they fight they embrace their Bear/Raven/Wolf form.
    I think we can safely assume that spirits of the wild or shapeshifting won't ever be a part of Revenant, for the same reasons Balthazar won't.

    Balthazar can't be channeled because when a mist being dies, they leave no ripples in the mist. Therefor they can't be called upon because they cease to exist, Balthazar as he was is no more and the new war-god is something of a mystery. The spirits are tyrian in nature, and yet have ties to the mists and they do have ripples within the mists as well and I believe because its never been stated otherwise that they don't. The gods honestly probably can't be called upon because of their very nature, the spirits are not such and Im sure will be much more malleable if chosen. But I agree we likely will never see it.

  • Stinja.9612Stinja.9612 Member ✭✭

    If we do go to Cantha, I would assume there's 3-5 legend ideas on the table. Master Togo, Urgoz, Kanaxai, Kunnavang or The Kirin Zunraa. Personally, I would just want Balthazar that plays like a Gilgamesh from Fate stay series, but given the poor balancing of the class i'm sure if it was fun and powerful it would get dumpstered immediately. Given how shiro was dealt with in the first game he shouldnt even be channel-able but yet he is so i dont see why Balth wouldn't be either. If they ever want to give Rifle to rev we'll likely get scarlet as the legend.
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Urgoz
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kanaxai
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kuunavang
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Master_Togo
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Zunraa

    I may be harsh but i care deeply about the game.

    https://twitch.tv/phenomatron

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stinja.9612 said:
    If we do go to Cantha, I would assume there's 3-5 legend ideas on the table. Master Togo, Urgoz, Kanaxai, Kunnavang or The Kirin Zunraa. Personally, I would just want Balthazar that plays like a Gilgamesh from Fate stay series, but given the poor balancing of the class i'm sure if it was fun and powerful it would get dumpstered immediately. Given how shiro was dealt with in the first game he shouldnt even be channel-able but yet he is so i dont see why Balth wouldn't be either. If they ever want to give Rifle to rev we'll likely get scarlet as the legend.
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Urgoz
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kanaxai
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kuunavang
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Master_Togo
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Zunraa

    1. Kanaxai can't be channeled as he is a demon who does not exist within the mists, and we don't know if he ever got tied to the mists. We have little idea of if he could make ripples in the mists due to demons being like gods, mist beings. Mist beings do NOT leave ripples in the mists and Kanaxai did little in his time to warrent being a legend, honestly most wouldn't likely know who he is.

    2. I doubt Zunraa would get it either, strictly speaking I don't feel its worthy enough as honestly its one of those beings that probably only a few can recall. (I hadn't even remembered until now) Just seems like Reaching..

    3. Kuunavang would be waaaaay too close to herald in theme so No. They won't do it. Just like they won't do a ritualist on rev due to it being WAAAY too close to renegade in scope. So I have a hard doubt it would be a legend, but I anticipate we might see her in the game as a character due to her potentially being immortal.

    4. Urgoz and togo are possible but I highly doubt they will be chosen as again Kalla had nothing to do with PoF at least in theme, like it was mostly based around elona and the six and she is SOO far flung from that. The Idea is that the revenants channel beings they can relate too or the very least could need in a specific situation and kalla's "Fervor" and nature to stand against oppression paired with rytlock teaching some of the first few revenants (Who were charr) that needed a legend to call upon. It happened due to the charr learning the magic from rytlock, it had a tie to the living world previous to PoF but it did not have much to tie into PoF. I really don't want togo as we have a canthan legend in shiro.. They don't need another. We don't need another and I Feel togo wouldn't bring enough to the table in terms of theme to the revenant as its already kinda encompassing his mystical field.

    5. In all likely hood we will get Asgeir mainly because the charr renegade can be found in grothmar, speaking to a norn who says she likes kalla's legend. The charr then replies with "I like the tale your people tell of Asgeir. Id like to meet him, if ever given the chance." Or some such thing referencing Asgeir by name and now we have his mist Echo in Asgeir's legacy where you van view him hauling the fang in bjora's marches. This paired with the fact that he has a heavy focus and he is so relevant to the story, I feel like as revenant legends go he is the most likely candidate and Id be surprised if they gave us anything but him. Balthazar can't be channeled due to being a god, he did not leave a single ripple in the mists and as close as we could get too him would be a Zaisheen of prestigious nature and had a hand in big events.. They could go completely left field but Id wager they are going to make this fan-service of sorts with cantha. We will have a LOT of stuff the community is asking for that is within reason, and the rev has been screaming (not I) about greatsword. None of the characters you mentioned make sense with that, but Asgeir, svanir or Jora do and honestly any of those three are the most likely scenario.

    Remember they caved and gave thief rifle in PoF after the screams about it In HoT. I wager we might see something very similar due to how poorly received renegade has been, and how people are not that impressed with it or the weapon associated with it. Again if they do anything else Ill be highly dissapointed as they have set all three of the norn heroes I pointed too up to be the next legend. More established lore, mist echos, voices and even direct nods pointed in their direction and all of them have effected the world, not just their sphere of influence.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't think we can say that mist beings don't leave ripples in the mists, since we already HAVE a demon legend in Mallyx - while Mallyx seems to be more Margonite than pure Torment Demon and thus was probably human once, the powers of his legend are fairly clearly linked to the Realm of Torment and his demonic incarnation rather than to his human existence. A better reason for excluding Kanaxai is simply that we already have a Legendary Demon Stance. (Similar, in that regard, to Kuunavang, since we already have a Legendary Dragon Stance.)

    I'm inclined to agree that Zunraa is probably not significant enough. She (I think Zunraa was a she, I might be wrong) is more of a local spirit/minor deity than anything world-shattering on her own.

    Urgoz and Togo... Urgoz is what it became because of Shiro, and most of Togo's accomplishments were also in response to Shiro. Shiro was the mover and shaker behind both of them.

    Well spotted regarding that conversation in Grothmar. Where is this conversation - I haven't been able to find it myself.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Note really quick that I left Eir out because she has recently died; GW3 if it ever happens would be the place Id suspect to see her as a legend. Here Im not so sure it would be wise to make her a legend; When she would end up bringing long bow considering its her iconic weapon. And Kalla already kind of brought that; Plus she while being a legend is not as much so a legend as some other norn heroes with more impressive feats and lore. (Similar to kalla, id be upset like I was when Pyre wasn't chosen. I doubt they will make that mistake again.)

    So, I'd like to respond to this idea of GW3 and revenant. If we assume GW3 takes place in Tyria's future, which I personally don't necessarily think it has to, there are some Mechanical changes we can be sure would take place.

    1. Revenant wouldn't be the only class that uses energy. Energy would be universal across all professions once again. This I'm pretty certain of as when the dev's talk about mistakes in design, this is a major one for sure.
    2. Revenant will have a more refined magic than they do now which would lead a more stable connection with their legends which also allows for more branching out.
    3. Revenant would have more available legends. And possibly lose access to some old ones.
    4. The Magic of the world might be much weaker than it is currently which could result in revenants losing specific abilities.
    5. Armor has a lot of mistakes in its design in GW2 so we'll likely see tanky armor be exclusively heavy while light armor is high energy like in GW1 and I don't think light medium and heavy will be restricted by class so revenant could wear Light armor.

    This would all impact the revenant as one aspect of the revenant's design is that it is the blue mage of the game. Sorta. It has some comparisons with Classic Final Fantasy red mage as well. And given this I'd imagined the Revenant would be the Cross class profession and this would be its identity so I could see it mixing strategies of classes like the elementalist and ranger. While those classes offer a more pure experience the revenant would have more options in combat but their opinions will be somewhere weaker. That's my speculation though and it might not be true or work well in practice.

    Maybe even channel two legends at once. It would be quite something for a light armor Revenant to channel a Domiation Mesmer like Gwen Thackeray and a fire shaman like Gaheron Baelfire. Burn your opponent's energy and swap to nuke them. Or just steal the energy and swap to Baelfire to nuke them with all your extra energy.

    But I'm getting ahead of myself. Its probably a bad idea of mine.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    I don't think we can say that mist beings don't leave ripples in the mists, since we already HAVE a demon legend in Mallyx - while Mallyx seems to be more Margonite than pure Torment Demon and thus was probably human once, the powers of his legend are fairly clearly linked to the Realm of Torment and his demonic incarnation rather than to his human existence. A better reason for excluding Kanaxai is simply that we already have a Legendary Demon Stance. (Similar, in that regard, to Kuunavang, since we already have a Legendary Dragon Stance.)

    I'm inclined to agree that Zunraa is probably not significant enough. She (I think Zunraa was a she, I might be wrong) is more of a local spirit/minor deity than anything world-shattering on her own.

    Urgoz and Togo... Urgoz is what it became because of Shiro, and most of Togo's accomplishments were also in response to Shiro. Shiro was the mover and shaker behind both of them.

    Well spotted regarding that conversation in Grothmar. Where is this conversation - I haven't been able to find it myself.

    Excuse me it is a farmer, and a Hunter. Both of which talk about revenant legends and the histories of them; It doesn't show up in the text box but its there.. Ill provide some pictures.
    bf739bfd4cebfc4cc34a349e48f76226.png

    cb852a8da124ec8bf3f7cfd256c68566.png

    a3e9cdcf0279f97d72dca60f3086252d.png

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Note really quick that I left Eir out because she has recently died; GW3 if it ever happens would be the place Id suspect to see her as a legend. Here Im not so sure it would be wise to make her a legend; When she would end up bringing long bow considering its her iconic weapon. And Kalla already kind of brought that; Plus she while being a legend is not as much so a legend as some other norn heroes with more impressive feats and lore. (Similar to kalla, id be upset like I was when Pyre wasn't chosen. I doubt they will make that mistake again.)

    So, I'd like to respond to this idea of GW3 and revenant. If we assume GW3 takes place in Tyria's future, which I personally don't necessarily think it has to, there are some Mechanical changes we can be sure would take place.

    1. Revenant wouldn't be the only class that uses energy. Energy would be universal across all professions once again. This I'm pretty certain of as when the dev's talk about mistakes in design, this is a major one for sure.
    2. Revenant will have a more refined magic than they do now which would lead a more stable connection with their legends which also allows for more branching out.
    3. Revenant would have more available legends. And possibly lose access to some old ones.
    4. The Magic of the world might be much weaker than it is currently which could result in revenants losing specific abilities.
    5. Armor has a lot of mistakes in its design in GW2 so we'll likely see tanky armor be exclusively heavy while light armor is high energy like in GW1 and I don't think light medium and heavy will be restricted by class so revenant could wear Light armor.

    This would all impact the revenant as one aspect of the revenant's design is that it is the blue mage of the game. Sorta. It has some comparisons with Classic Final Fantasy red mage as well. And given this I'd imagined the Revenant would be the Cross class profession and this would be its identity so I could see it mixing strategies of classes like the elementalist and ranger. While those classes offer a more pure experience the revenant would have more options in combat but their opinions will be somewhere weaker. That's my speculation though and it might not be true or work well in practice.

    Maybe even channel two legends at once. It would be quite something for a light armor Revenant to channel a Domiation Mesmer like Gwen Thackeray and a fire shaman like Gaheron Baelfire. Burn your opponent's energy and swap to nuke them. Or just steal the energy and swap to Baelfire to nuke them with all your extra energy.

    But I'm getting ahead of myself. Its probably a bad idea of mine.

    This is of course, if revenant even appears in a hypothetical guild wars 3. I honestly think A-net would get rid of it as it seems they don't much care for the proffession much, so I imagine they would be like the Dervish or ritualist and just not exist as a playable thing and only be something that happened but then "Ceased" to be.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Note really quick that I left Eir out because she has recently died; GW3 if it ever happens would be the place Id suspect to see her as a legend. Here Im not so sure it would be wise to make her a legend; When she would end up bringing long bow considering its her iconic weapon. And Kalla already kind of brought that; Plus she while being a legend is not as much so a legend as some other norn heroes with more impressive feats and lore. (Similar to kalla, id be upset like I was when Pyre wasn't chosen. I doubt they will make that mistake again.)

    So, I'd like to respond to this idea of GW3 and revenant. If we assume GW3 takes place in Tyria's future, which I personally don't necessarily think it has to, there are some Mechanical changes we can be sure would take place.

    1. Revenant wouldn't be the only class that uses energy. Energy would be universal across all professions once again. This I'm pretty certain of as when the dev's talk about mistakes in design, this is a major one for sure.
    2. Revenant will have a more refined magic than they do now which would lead a more stable connection with their legends which also allows for more branching out.
    3. Revenant would have more available legends. And possibly lose access to some old ones.
    4. The Magic of the world might be much weaker than it is currently which could result in revenants losing specific abilities.
    5. Armor has a lot of mistakes in its design in GW2 so we'll likely see tanky armor be exclusively heavy while light armor is high energy like in GW1 and I don't think light medium and heavy will be restricted by class so revenant could wear Light armor.

    This would all impact the revenant as one aspect of the revenant's design is that it is the blue mage of the game. Sorta. It has some comparisons with Classic Final Fantasy red mage as well. And given this I'd imagined the Revenant would be the Cross class profession and this would be its identity so I could see it mixing strategies of classes like the elementalist and ranger. While those classes offer a more pure experience the revenant would have more options in combat but their opinions will be somewhere weaker. That's my speculation though and it might not be true or work well in practice.

    Maybe even channel two legends at once. It would be quite something for a light armor Revenant to channel a Domiation Mesmer like Gwen Thackeray and a fire shaman like Gaheron Baelfire. Burn your opponent's energy and swap to nuke them. Or just steal the energy and swap to Baelfire to nuke them with all your extra energy.

    But I'm getting ahead of myself. Its probably a bad idea of mine.

    This is of course, if revenant even appears in a hypothetical guild wars 3. I honestly think A-net would get rid of it as it seems they don't much care for the proffession much, so I imagine they would be like the Dervish or ritualist and just not exist as a playable thing and only be something that happened but then "Ceased" to be.

    Hard to say. Anet made a lot of mistakes with GW1 and GW2. Some mistakes they made in GW2 they didn't make in gw1. One such mistake is the lack of energy. Another is how some of the professions work such as revenant, Elementalist, necromancer and engineer.

    I could see revenant coming back but that's assuming we are in the future for GW3. We could be in the past or even on a different world in the mists entirely. I personally wouldn't mind leaving Tyria but I might be an outlier on that.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Note really quick that I left Eir out because she has recently died; GW3 if it ever happens would be the place Id suspect to see her as a legend. Here Im not so sure it would be wise to make her a legend; When she would end up bringing long bow considering its her iconic weapon. And Kalla already kind of brought that; Plus she while being a legend is not as much so a legend as some other norn heroes with more impressive feats and lore. (Similar to kalla, id be upset like I was when Pyre wasn't chosen. I doubt they will make that mistake again.)

    So, I'd like to respond to this idea of GW3 and revenant. If we assume GW3 takes place in Tyria's future, which I personally don't necessarily think it has to, there are some Mechanical changes we can be sure would take place.

    1. Revenant wouldn't be the only class that uses energy. Energy would be universal across all professions once again. This I'm pretty certain of as when the dev's talk about mistakes in design, this is a major one for sure.
    2. Revenant will have a more refined magic than they do now which would lead a more stable connection with their legends which also allows for more branching out.
    3. Revenant would have more available legends. And possibly lose access to some old ones.
    4. The Magic of the world might be much weaker than it is currently which could result in revenants losing specific abilities.
    5. Armor has a lot of mistakes in its design in GW2 so we'll likely see tanky armor be exclusively heavy while light armor is high energy like in GW1 and I don't think light medium and heavy will be restricted by class so revenant could wear Light armor.

    This would all impact the revenant as one aspect of the revenant's design is that it is the blue mage of the game. Sorta. It has some comparisons with Classic Final Fantasy red mage as well. And given this I'd imagined the Revenant would be the Cross class profession and this would be its identity so I could see it mixing strategies of classes like the elementalist and ranger. While those classes offer a more pure experience the revenant would have more options in combat but their opinions will be somewhere weaker. That's my speculation though and it might not be true or work well in practice.

    Maybe even channel two legends at once. It would be quite something for a light armor Revenant to channel a Domiation Mesmer like Gwen Thackeray and a fire shaman like Gaheron Baelfire. Burn your opponent's energy and swap to nuke them. Or just steal the energy and swap to Baelfire to nuke them with all your extra energy.

    But I'm getting ahead of myself. Its probably a bad idea of mine.

    This is of course, if revenant even appears in a hypothetical guild wars 3. I honestly think A-net would get rid of it as it seems they don't much care for the proffession much, so I imagine they would be like the Dervish or ritualist and just not exist as a playable thing and only be something that happened but then "Ceased" to be.

    Hard to say. Anet made a lot of mistakes with GW1 and GW2. Some mistakes they made in GW2 they didn't make in gw1. One such mistake is the lack of energy. Another is how some of the professions work such as revenant, Elementalist, necromancer and engineer.

    I could see revenant coming back but that's assuming we are in the future for GW3. We could be in the past or even on a different world in the mists entirely. I personally wouldn't mind leaving Tyria but I might be an outlier on that.

    It also assumes they wont want to distance themselves from the franchise, and explore new titles.. I honestly doubt GW3 will ever be a thing at this point..

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Note really quick that I left Eir out because she has recently died; GW3 if it ever happens would be the place Id suspect to see her as a legend. Here Im not so sure it would be wise to make her a legend; When she would end up bringing long bow considering its her iconic weapon. And Kalla already kind of brought that; Plus she while being a legend is not as much so a legend as some other norn heroes with more impressive feats and lore. (Similar to kalla, id be upset like I was when Pyre wasn't chosen. I doubt they will make that mistake again.)

    So, I'd like to respond to this idea of GW3 and revenant. If we assume GW3 takes place in Tyria's future, which I personally don't necessarily think it has to, there are some Mechanical changes we can be sure would take place.

    1. Revenant wouldn't be the only class that uses energy. Energy would be universal across all professions once again. This I'm pretty certain of as when the dev's talk about mistakes in design, this is a major one for sure.
    2. Revenant will have a more refined magic than they do now which would lead a more stable connection with their legends which also allows for more branching out.
    3. Revenant would have more available legends. And possibly lose access to some old ones.
    4. The Magic of the world might be much weaker than it is currently which could result in revenants losing specific abilities.
    5. Armor has a lot of mistakes in its design in GW2 so we'll likely see tanky armor be exclusively heavy while light armor is high energy like in GW1 and I don't think light medium and heavy will be restricted by class so revenant could wear Light armor.

    This would all impact the revenant as one aspect of the revenant's design is that it is the blue mage of the game. Sorta. It has some comparisons with Classic Final Fantasy red mage as well. And given this I'd imagined the Revenant would be the Cross class profession and this would be its identity so I could see it mixing strategies of classes like the elementalist and ranger. While those classes offer a more pure experience the revenant would have more options in combat but their opinions will be somewhere weaker. That's my speculation though and it might not be true or work well in practice.

    Maybe even channel two legends at once. It would be quite something for a light armor Revenant to channel a Domiation Mesmer like Gwen Thackeray and a fire shaman like Gaheron Baelfire. Burn your opponent's energy and swap to nuke them. Or just steal the energy and swap to Baelfire to nuke them with all your extra energy.

    But I'm getting ahead of myself. Its probably a bad idea of mine.

    This is of course, if revenant even appears in a hypothetical guild wars 3. I honestly think A-net would get rid of it as it seems they don't much care for the proffession much, so I imagine they would be like the Dervish or ritualist and just not exist as a playable thing and only be something that happened but then "Ceased" to be.

    Hard to say. Anet made a lot of mistakes with GW1 and GW2. Some mistakes they made in GW2 they didn't make in gw1. One such mistake is the lack of energy. Another is how some of the professions work such as revenant, Elementalist, necromancer and engineer.

    I could see revenant coming back but that's assuming we are in the future for GW3. We could be in the past or even on a different world in the mists entirely. I personally wouldn't mind leaving Tyria but I might be an outlier on that.

    It also assumes they wont want to distance themselves from the franchise, and explore new titles.. I honestly doubt GW3 will ever be a thing at this point..

    I have the same feelings actually... Unfortunately.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Note really quick that I left Eir out because she has recently died; GW3 if it ever happens would be the place Id suspect to see her as a legend. Here Im not so sure it would be wise to make her a legend; When she would end up bringing long bow considering its her iconic weapon. And Kalla already kind of brought that; Plus she while being a legend is not as much so a legend as some other norn heroes with more impressive feats and lore. (Similar to kalla, id be upset like I was when Pyre wasn't chosen. I doubt they will make that mistake again.)

    So, I'd like to respond to this idea of GW3 and revenant. If we assume GW3 takes place in Tyria's future, which I personally don't necessarily think it has to, there are some Mechanical changes we can be sure would take place.

    1. Revenant wouldn't be the only class that uses energy. Energy would be universal across all professions once again. This I'm pretty certain of as when the dev's talk about mistakes in design, this is a major one for sure.
    2. Revenant will have a more refined magic than they do now which would lead a more stable connection with their legends which also allows for more branching out.
    3. Revenant would have more available legends. And possibly lose access to some old ones.
    4. The Magic of the world might be much weaker than it is currently which could result in revenants losing specific abilities.
    5. Armor has a lot of mistakes in its design in GW2 so we'll likely see tanky armor be exclusively heavy while light armor is high energy like in GW1 and I don't think light medium and heavy will be restricted by class so revenant could wear Light armor.

    This would all impact the revenant as one aspect of the revenant's design is that it is the blue mage of the game. Sorta. It has some comparisons with Classic Final Fantasy red mage as well. And given this I'd imagined the Revenant would be the Cross class profession and this would be its identity so I could see it mixing strategies of classes like the elementalist and ranger. While those classes offer a more pure experience the revenant would have more options in combat but their opinions will be somewhere weaker. That's my speculation though and it might not be true or work well in practice.

    Maybe even channel two legends at once. It would be quite something for a light armor Revenant to channel a Domiation Mesmer like Gwen Thackeray and a fire shaman like Gaheron Baelfire. Burn your opponent's energy and swap to nuke them. Or just steal the energy and swap to Baelfire to nuke them with all your extra energy.

    But I'm getting ahead of myself. Its probably a bad idea of mine.

    This is of course, if revenant even appears in a hypothetical guild wars 3. I honestly think A-net would get rid of it as it seems they don't much care for the proffession much, so I imagine they would be like the Dervish or ritualist and just not exist as a playable thing and only be something that happened but then "Ceased" to be.

    Hard to say. Anet made a lot of mistakes with GW1 and GW2. Some mistakes they made in GW2 they didn't make in gw1. One such mistake is the lack of energy. Another is how some of the professions work such as revenant, Elementalist, necromancer and engineer.

    I could see revenant coming back but that's assuming we are in the future for GW3. We could be in the past or even on a different world in the mists entirely. I personally wouldn't mind leaving Tyria but I might be an outlier on that.

    It also assumes they wont want to distance themselves from the franchise, and explore new titles.. I honestly doubt GW3 will ever be a thing at this point..

    I have the same feelings actually... Unfortunately.

    Birds of a feather flock together, sadly it seems you and I are kindred spirits in this. Though I do appreciate your Ideas and the kind of vision you have, I wish that some would share it both within and outside of the game.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Note really quick that I left Eir out because she has recently died; GW3 if it ever happens would be the place Id suspect to see her as a legend. Here Im not so sure it would be wise to make her a legend; When she would end up bringing long bow considering its her iconic weapon. And Kalla already kind of brought that; Plus she while being a legend is not as much so a legend as some other norn heroes with more impressive feats and lore. (Similar to kalla, id be upset like I was when Pyre wasn't chosen. I doubt they will make that mistake again.)

    So, I'd like to respond to this idea of GW3 and revenant. If we assume GW3 takes place in Tyria's future, which I personally don't necessarily think it has to, there are some Mechanical changes we can be sure would take place.

    1. Revenant wouldn't be the only class that uses energy. Energy would be universal across all professions once again. This I'm pretty certain of as when the dev's talk about mistakes in design, this is a major one for sure.
    2. Revenant will have a more refined magic than they do now which would lead a more stable connection with their legends which also allows for more branching out.
    3. Revenant would have more available legends. And possibly lose access to some old ones.
    4. The Magic of the world might be much weaker than it is currently which could result in revenants losing specific abilities.
    5. Armor has a lot of mistakes in its design in GW2 so we'll likely see tanky armor be exclusively heavy while light armor is high energy like in GW1 and I don't think light medium and heavy will be restricted by class so revenant could wear Light armor.

    This would all impact the revenant as one aspect of the revenant's design is that it is the blue mage of the game. Sorta. It has some comparisons with Classic Final Fantasy red mage as well. And given this I'd imagined the Revenant would be the Cross class profession and this would be its identity so I could see it mixing strategies of classes like the elementalist and ranger. While those classes offer a more pure experience the revenant would have more options in combat but their opinions will be somewhere weaker. That's my speculation though and it might not be true or work well in practice.

    Maybe even channel two legends at once. It would be quite something for a light armor Revenant to channel a Domiation Mesmer like Gwen Thackeray and a fire shaman like Gaheron Baelfire. Burn your opponent's energy and swap to nuke them. Or just steal the energy and swap to Baelfire to nuke them with all your extra energy.

    But I'm getting ahead of myself. Its probably a bad idea of mine.

    This is of course, if revenant even appears in a hypothetical guild wars 3. I honestly think A-net would get rid of it as it seems they don't much care for the proffession much, so I imagine they would be like the Dervish or ritualist and just not exist as a playable thing and only be something that happened but then "Ceased" to be.

    Hard to say. Anet made a lot of mistakes with GW1 and GW2. Some mistakes they made in GW2 they didn't make in gw1. One such mistake is the lack of energy. Another is how some of the professions work such as revenant, Elementalist, necromancer and engineer.

    I could see revenant coming back but that's assuming we are in the future for GW3. We could be in the past or even on a different world in the mists entirely. I personally wouldn't mind leaving Tyria but I might be an outlier on that.

    It also assumes they wont want to distance themselves from the franchise, and explore new titles.. I honestly doubt GW3 will ever be a thing at this point..

    I have the same feelings actually... Unfortunately.

    Birds of a feather flock together, sadly it seems you and I are kindred spirits in this. Though I do appreciate your Ideas and the kind of vision you have, I wish that some would share it both within and outside of the game.

    Yeah. I am off topic though. I do however think it would be extremely cool if Revenant did end up having a legend for each class. Having weird hybrids between the 8 classes sounds nostalgic to me.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Note really quick that I left Eir out because she has recently died; GW3 if it ever happens would be the place Id suspect to see her as a legend. Here Im not so sure it would be wise to make her a legend; When she would end up bringing long bow considering its her iconic weapon. And Kalla already kind of brought that; Plus she while being a legend is not as much so a legend as some other norn heroes with more impressive feats and lore. (Similar to kalla, id be upset like I was when Pyre wasn't chosen. I doubt they will make that mistake again.)

    So, I'd like to respond to this idea of GW3 and revenant. If we assume GW3 takes place in Tyria's future, which I personally don't necessarily think it has to, there are some Mechanical changes we can be sure would take place.

    1. Revenant wouldn't be the only class that uses energy. Energy would be universal across all professions once again. This I'm pretty certain of as when the dev's talk about mistakes in design, this is a major one for sure.
    2. Revenant will have a more refined magic than they do now which would lead a more stable connection with their legends which also allows for more branching out.
    3. Revenant would have more available legends. And possibly lose access to some old ones.
    4. The Magic of the world might be much weaker than it is currently which could result in revenants losing specific abilities.
    5. Armor has a lot of mistakes in its design in GW2 so we'll likely see tanky armor be exclusively heavy while light armor is high energy like in GW1 and I don't think light medium and heavy will be restricted by class so revenant could wear Light armor.

    This would all impact the revenant as one aspect of the revenant's design is that it is the blue mage of the game. Sorta. It has some comparisons with Classic Final Fantasy red mage as well. And given this I'd imagined the Revenant would be the Cross class profession and this would be its identity so I could see it mixing strategies of classes like the elementalist and ranger. While those classes offer a more pure experience the revenant would have more options in combat but their opinions will be somewhere weaker. That's my speculation though and it might not be true or work well in practice.

    Maybe even channel two legends at once. It would be quite something for a light armor Revenant to channel a Domiation Mesmer like Gwen Thackeray and a fire shaman like Gaheron Baelfire. Burn your opponent's energy and swap to nuke them. Or just steal the energy and swap to Baelfire to nuke them with all your extra energy.

    But I'm getting ahead of myself. Its probably a bad idea of mine.

    This is of course, if revenant even appears in a hypothetical guild wars 3. I honestly think A-net would get rid of it as it seems they don't much care for the proffession much, so I imagine they would be like the Dervish or ritualist and just not exist as a playable thing and only be something that happened but then "Ceased" to be.

    Hard to say. Anet made a lot of mistakes with GW1 and GW2. Some mistakes they made in GW2 they didn't make in gw1. One such mistake is the lack of energy. Another is how some of the professions work such as revenant, Elementalist, necromancer and engineer.

    I could see revenant coming back but that's assuming we are in the future for GW3. We could be in the past or even on a different world in the mists entirely. I personally wouldn't mind leaving Tyria but I might be an outlier on that.

    It also assumes they wont want to distance themselves from the franchise, and explore new titles.. I honestly doubt GW3 will ever be a thing at this point..

    I have the same feelings actually... Unfortunately.

    Birds of a feather flock together, sadly it seems you and I are kindred spirits in this. Though I do appreciate your Ideas and the kind of vision you have, I wish that some would share it both within and outside of the game.

    Yeah. I am off topic though. I do however think it would be extremely cool if Revenant did end up having a legend for each class. Having weird hybrids between the 8 classes sounds nostalgic to me.

    I mean it would be, but Im not sure how to translate the dervish over because of how it was sort of tied around the six and its monk like behavior makes it hard to really bring into the current setting. I also feel like it wouldn't do ritualist very well because of its unique class mechanics, I think necromancer would be better. Paragon exists on the warrior as spellbreaker, and monk is within guardian.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Note really quick that I left Eir out because she has recently died; GW3 if it ever happens would be the place Id suspect to see her as a legend. Here Im not so sure it would be wise to make her a legend; When she would end up bringing long bow considering its her iconic weapon. And Kalla already kind of brought that; Plus she while being a legend is not as much so a legend as some other norn heroes with more impressive feats and lore. (Similar to kalla, id be upset like I was when Pyre wasn't chosen. I doubt they will make that mistake again.)

    So, I'd like to respond to this idea of GW3 and revenant. If we assume GW3 takes place in Tyria's future, which I personally don't necessarily think it has to, there are some Mechanical changes we can be sure would take place.

    1. Revenant wouldn't be the only class that uses energy. Energy would be universal across all professions once again. This I'm pretty certain of as when the dev's talk about mistakes in design, this is a major one for sure.
    2. Revenant will have a more refined magic than they do now which would lead a more stable connection with their legends which also allows for more branching out.
    3. Revenant would have more available legends. And possibly lose access to some old ones.
    4. The Magic of the world might be much weaker than it is currently which could result in revenants losing specific abilities.
    5. Armor has a lot of mistakes in its design in GW2 so we'll likely see tanky armor be exclusively heavy while light armor is high energy like in GW1 and I don't think light medium and heavy will be restricted by class so revenant could wear Light armor.

    This would all impact the revenant as one aspect of the revenant's design is that it is the blue mage of the game. Sorta. It has some comparisons with Classic Final Fantasy red mage as well. And given this I'd imagined the Revenant would be the Cross class profession and this would be its identity so I could see it mixing strategies of classes like the elementalist and ranger. While those classes offer a more pure experience the revenant would have more options in combat but their opinions will be somewhere weaker. That's my speculation though and it might not be true or work well in practice.

    Maybe even channel two legends at once. It would be quite something for a light armor Revenant to channel a Domiation Mesmer like Gwen Thackeray and a fire shaman like Gaheron Baelfire. Burn your opponent's energy and swap to nuke them. Or just steal the energy and swap to Baelfire to nuke them with all your extra energy.

    But I'm getting ahead of myself. Its probably a bad idea of mine.

    This is of course, if revenant even appears in a hypothetical guild wars 3. I honestly think A-net would get rid of it as it seems they don't much care for the proffession much, so I imagine they would be like the Dervish or ritualist and just not exist as a playable thing and only be something that happened but then "Ceased" to be.

    Hard to say. Anet made a lot of mistakes with GW1 and GW2. Some mistakes they made in GW2 they didn't make in gw1. One such mistake is the lack of energy. Another is how some of the professions work such as revenant, Elementalist, necromancer and engineer.

    I could see revenant coming back but that's assuming we are in the future for GW3. We could be in the past or even on a different world in the mists entirely. I personally wouldn't mind leaving Tyria but I might be an outlier on that.

    It also assumes they wont want to distance themselves from the franchise, and explore new titles.. I honestly doubt GW3 will ever be a thing at this point..

    I have the same feelings actually... Unfortunately.

    Birds of a feather flock together, sadly it seems you and I are kindred spirits in this. Though I do appreciate your Ideas and the kind of vision you have, I wish that some would share it both within and outside of the game.

    Yeah. I am off topic though. I do however think it would be extremely cool if Revenant did end up having a legend for each class. Having weird hybrids between the 8 classes sounds nostalgic to me.

    I mean it would be, but Im not sure how to translate the dervish over because of how it was sort of tied around the six and its monk like behavior makes it hard to really bring into the current setting. I also feel like it wouldn't do ritualist very well because of its unique class mechanics, I think necromancer would be better. Paragon exists on the warrior as spellbreaker, and monk is within guardian.

    Dervish was sorts an aura warrior which I can think of a few skills that could work quite well. As for the Avatar forms? That's a bit trickier admittedly. I thought of paring them with the legends but that doesn't really fit 1 for 1...

    Personally, if I was to bring the Dervish into GW2 I'd use the legendary stance mechanic the Revenant has as the template just change the legends to Avatar stances. Which I think could work quite well. It would be a "clone" class or as smash bros calls it a "echo" but idk. I wouldn't be opposed to that sort of thing if arena net maxes out on elite specs and we continue with gw2 another 10 years

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Note really quick that I left Eir out because she has recently died; GW3 if it ever happens would be the place Id suspect to see her as a legend. Here Im not so sure it would be wise to make her a legend; When she would end up bringing long bow considering its her iconic weapon. And Kalla already kind of brought that; Plus she while being a legend is not as much so a legend as some other norn heroes with more impressive feats and lore. (Similar to kalla, id be upset like I was when Pyre wasn't chosen. I doubt they will make that mistake again.)

    So, I'd like to respond to this idea of GW3 and revenant. If we assume GW3 takes place in Tyria's future, which I personally don't necessarily think it has to, there are some Mechanical changes we can be sure would take place.

    1. Revenant wouldn't be the only class that uses energy. Energy would be universal across all professions once again. This I'm pretty certain of as when the dev's talk about mistakes in design, this is a major one for sure.
    2. Revenant will have a more refined magic than they do now which would lead a more stable connection with their legends which also allows for more branching out.
    3. Revenant would have more available legends. And possibly lose access to some old ones.
    4. The Magic of the world might be much weaker than it is currently which could result in revenants losing specific abilities.
    5. Armor has a lot of mistakes in its design in GW2 so we'll likely see tanky armor be exclusively heavy while light armor is high energy like in GW1 and I don't think light medium and heavy will be restricted by class so revenant could wear Light armor.

    This would all impact the revenant as one aspect of the revenant's design is that it is the blue mage of the game. Sorta. It has some comparisons with Classic Final Fantasy red mage as well. And given this I'd imagined the Revenant would be the Cross class profession and this would be its identity so I could see it mixing strategies of classes like the elementalist and ranger. While those classes offer a more pure experience the revenant would have more options in combat but their opinions will be somewhere weaker. That's my speculation though and it might not be true or work well in practice.

    Maybe even channel two legends at once. It would be quite something for a light armor Revenant to channel a Domiation Mesmer like Gwen Thackeray and a fire shaman like Gaheron Baelfire. Burn your opponent's energy and swap to nuke them. Or just steal the energy and swap to Baelfire to nuke them with all your extra energy.

    But I'm getting ahead of myself. Its probably a bad idea of mine.

    This is of course, if revenant even appears in a hypothetical guild wars 3. I honestly think A-net would get rid of it as it seems they don't much care for the proffession much, so I imagine they would be like the Dervish or ritualist and just not exist as a playable thing and only be something that happened but then "Ceased" to be.

    Hard to say. Anet made a lot of mistakes with GW1 and GW2. Some mistakes they made in GW2 they didn't make in gw1. One such mistake is the lack of energy. Another is how some of the professions work such as revenant, Elementalist, necromancer and engineer.

    I could see revenant coming back but that's assuming we are in the future for GW3. We could be in the past or even on a different world in the mists entirely. I personally wouldn't mind leaving Tyria but I might be an outlier on that.

    It also assumes they wont want to distance themselves from the franchise, and explore new titles.. I honestly doubt GW3 will ever be a thing at this point..

    I have the same feelings actually... Unfortunately.

    Birds of a feather flock together, sadly it seems you and I are kindred spirits in this. Though I do appreciate your Ideas and the kind of vision you have, I wish that some would share it both within and outside of the game.

    Yeah. I am off topic though. I do however think it would be extremely cool if Revenant did end up having a legend for each class. Having weird hybrids between the 8 classes sounds nostalgic to me.

    I mean it would be, but Im not sure how to translate the dervish over because of how it was sort of tied around the six and its monk like behavior makes it hard to really bring into the current setting. I also feel like it wouldn't do ritualist very well because of its unique class mechanics, I think necromancer would be better. Paragon exists on the warrior as spellbreaker, and monk is within guardian.

    Dervish was sorts an aura warrior which I can think of a few skills that could work quite well. As for the Avatar forms? That's a bit trickier admittedly. I thought of paring them with the legends but that doesn't really fit 1 for 1...

    Personally, if I was to bring the Dervish into GW2 I'd use the legendary stance mechanic the Revenant has as the template just change the legends to Avatar stances. Which I think could work quite well. It would be a "clone" class or as smash bros calls it a "echo" but idk. I wouldn't be opposed to that sort of thing if arena net maxes out on elite specs and we continue with gw2 another 10 years

    Personally I feel Dervish would be a good spec for warrior, a staff melee warrior who takes both the aura's and the nature of the dervish and say pair it with some of the unused aspects of monk or some such thing? A support warrior who heals through damage both given and sustained by the user, and can maybe take a form of something else (not the Six) but it has the ability to augment itself with the form of perhaps its inner nature? Its magical in terms but its more about ones inner energy, chi and maybe even soul so its about ones self and not pulling from outside of the person using the technique. So I mean it could be comparable to I guess (I hate using naruto as an example.) The Eight gates, where the user augments themself by removing their limits for devastating power but also for devastating cost.

    I feel like Ritualist should go to necromancer, as the theme is already there and paired with core it could be made into a proper occultist like spec.

    Assassin should go to messmer considering how close they are due to their worship of lyssa, and the fact they use similar techniques.

    To be honest I feel like we need a new class, or new classes and that E-specs just may not be enough anymore? They are good and all but a whole new class with two E-specs each would win my money on principle if it was something I liked the theme of. (Plus it keeps classes from potentially loosing their identity by gaining similar tools to other classes.)