Core Necromancer: Shroudless Redesign [Hypothetical Concept and Discussion]

The title of this is a bit misleading as I'm not actually suggesting that shroud be dropped. But Rather conceptualizing what I personally feel would provide a more engaging and fun core class to play and to use. Why I'm calling this the Shroudless Redesign isn't because shroud is removed, but rather the focus of the necromancer is pushed in a different design direction where Life force is the primary Focus and its balancing act with Shroud and the other shroud skills. But a bit of History.

Death shroud actually used to double dip back in the Alpha version of the game. Your shroud skills would cost life force and the shroud itself would degen over time. I don't care for this design as its kinda sloppy admittedly, but I also don't care for the design of death shroud as it is now either. I do like that the skills cost life force and shroud eats life force, but at the same time I dislike that. MY concept would decouple these skills from the shroud and allow Shroud itself act purely on defense without sacrificing the offensive abilities of shroud. So with my introduction to this idea out of the way. lets take a look at the changes I'd make.

Life Force Skills

I'd start off by splitting up the skills. So you'd have an f1-f5 skill, much like scourge. Unlike scourge these skills will require a cast time(except for skill 5 but we'll get to that) and would be ports of the old F skills. Because shroud has 5 skills and Enter shroud needs to be one of them one of the 5 skills will be dropped but I'd added it elsewhere.

• [F1]: Life Blast: | 3/4s cast time | 2k life force cost | No further changes. So something to keep note of this skill. My thoughts on it is it should be a high power, high damage skill that is absolutely devastating to be hit by. BUT at an extremely high cost for the necromancer. Although they can spam it it will eat their life force very quickly which could leave them vulnerable. And this dynamic I feel would be fun to use.
• [F2] Dark Path/Dark Pursuit: | 2.5k life force cost | No further changes. I would much prefer this to be a ground teleport but I'm honestly Not going to push too much unusual design that would do too much to warp the necromancer. At the moment, its fine as a skill you always have access to.
• [F3] Doom: | 3.2k Life Force Cost | No further changes. I personally would reduce its cast time or replace it with wave of fear, BUUT I suppose its fine if we always have access to it.
• [F4] Tainted Shackles: | 4.5k life force cost | 2 1/2s cast time | Channel to damage foes around you inflicting torment, when this skill ends immobilize them. Maybe this is a bit strong, but I feel combining the two skills and having a channel would be good for the necromancer's overall design. Tainted shackles is a bit of an underwhelming skill imo and so its Life Transfer. HOWEVER it doesn't mean I think the concept is bad. As for this, people might think this is op. But there's counter play too it. If they dodge at the right time when it would finish, or gain some form of block or invuln, the immobilize will not occur. Also to note if they move too far away, it also wont occur. So a few conditions need to be met for it to work. And its an expensive skill to use to make it worth while.
• [F5] Death Shroud | No changes to how you enter or exit or even its recharge. Still has the same restrictions as before | Death shroud in this instance only use your life force as extra health to buffer attacks. Traits that influence death shroud influence it normally. You can still use your utility and weapon skills as normal. Nothing else would be changed. Death shroud would still probably have to block healing Due to some unusual synergies.

This is about what I'd do to core necromancer. And honestly, I can think of a few builds that this would certainly improve. I don't personally think this breaks the necromancer and all the traits will still function just fine with these changes. They would actually function better with the current set up than Scourge does due to this not being a departure from how shroud works, just how you use life force and access it.

As for life Transfer? Oh I wouldn't remove the skill. I'd have it become the flip skill for Life Siphon when you begin bleeding and its flip would last probably around 4-5 seconds. Giving Dagger some more utility.

But this is just a hypothetical. Honestly there are some aspects it could over power, but I don't think this is more broken than our current death shroud. It would change things up quite a bit. But we'll see what everyone else thinks.

Imo what would be cool is to rework Minions and integrate them into Necromancer's Profession mechanic.

F1 F2 F3 F4 will be reworked minions along with their flip skills (main feature will be either letting the Minion live to continue attacking or activating the flip skill to kill them and put them into cooldown)F5 will be their Shroud.

When the Necromancer uses F5, they will absorb their Minions into their Shroud giving them bonus stats if they were not consumed prior to activation, and upon Shroud ending, these Minions will be released from the Necromancer to continue attacking, but their flip skills will be on a short 3 second cooldown before allowing activation.

@"Lily.1935" said:The title of this is a bit misleading as I'm not actually suggesting that shroud be dropped. But Rather conceptualizing what I personally feel would provide a more engaging and fun core class to play and to use. Why I'm calling this the Shroudless Redesign isn't because shroud is removed, but rather the focus of the necromancer is pushed in a different design direction where Life force is the primary Focus and its balancing act with Shroud and the other shroud skills. But a bit of History.

Death shroud actually used to double dip back in the Alpha version of the game. Your shroud skills would cost life force and the shroud itself would degen over time. I don't care for this design as its kinda sloppy admittedly, but I also don't care for the design of death shroud as it is now either. I do like that the skills cost life force and shroud eats life force, but at the same time I dislike that. MY concept would decouple these skills from the shroud and allow Shroud itself act purely on defense without sacrificing the offensive abilities of shroud. So with my introduction to this idea out of the way. lets take a look at the changes I'd make.

Life Force Skills

I'd start off by splitting up the skills. So you'd have an f1-f5 skill, much like scourge. Unlike scourge these skills will require a cast time(except for skill 5 but we'll get to that) and would be ports of the old F skills. Because shroud has 5 skills and Enter shroud needs to be one of them one of the 5 skills will be dropped but I'd added it elsewhere.

• [F1]: Life Blast: | 3/4s cast time | 2k life force cost | No further changes. So something to keep note of this skill. My thoughts on it is it should be a high power, high damage skill that is absolutely devastating to be hit by. BUT at an extremely high cost for the necromancer. Although they can spam it it will eat their life force very quickly which could leave them vulnerable. And this dynamic I feel would be fun to use.
• [F2] Dark Path/Dark Pursuit: | 2.5k life force cost | No further changes. I would much prefer this to be a ground teleport but I'm honestly Not going to push too much unusual design that would do too much to warp the necromancer. At the moment, its fine as a skill you always have access to.
• [F3] Doom: | 3.2k Life Force Cost | No further changes. I personally would reduce its cast time or replace it with wave of fear, BUUT I suppose its fine if we always have access to it.
• [F4] Tainted Shackles: | 4.5k life force cost | 2 1/2s cast time | Channel to damage foes around you inflicting torment, when this skill ends immobilize them. Maybe this is a bit strong, but I feel combining the two skills and having a channel would be good for the necromancer's overall design. Tainted shackles is a bit of an underwhelming skill imo and so its Life Transfer. HOWEVER it doesn't mean I think the concept is bad. As for this, people might think this is op. But there's counter play too it. If they dodge at the right time when it would finish, or gain some form of block or invuln, the immobilize will not occur. Also to note if they move too far away, it also wont occur. So a few conditions need to be met for it to work. And its an expensive skill to use to make it worth while.
• [F5] Death Shroud | No changes to how you enter or exit or even its recharge. Still has the same restrictions as before | Death shroud in this instance only use your life force as extra health to buffer attacks. Traits that influence death shroud influence it normally. You can still use your utility and weapon skills as normal. Nothing else would be changed. Death shroud would still probably have to block healing Due to some unusual synergies.

This is about what I'd do to core necromancer. And honestly, I can think of a few builds that this would certainly improve. I don't personally think this breaks the necromancer and all the traits will still function just fine with these changes. They would actually function better with the current set up than Scourge does due to this not being a departure from how shroud works, just how you use life force and access it.

As for life Transfer? Oh I wouldn't remove the skill. I'd have it become the flip skill for Life Siphon when you begin bleeding and its flip would last probably around 4-5 seconds. Giving Dagger some more utility.

But this is just a hypothetical. Honestly there are some aspects it could over power, but I don't think this is more broken than our current death shroud. It would change things up quite a bit. But we'll see what everyone else thinks.

I really like this concept, i think i've seen a similar one before, i can already see pve builds centered around "unloading" that f1 :wink:

Being able to use regular skills while shrouded is unexplored waters, that's the part that could end up quite overpowered, as you can gain life force while in shroud, potentially camping it forever; It also increases choices for the necromancer, while previous shrouds were predictable in what they could do; now, they would have access to key skills while being fully protected.I suppose shroud skills having a LF cost may have a bigger impact than i currently imagine, balancing this strength of death shroud.

This seems promising without regular skills in shroud, too.

A mechanic for an elite spec maybe but not core necro.

Lilly, what you suggest appears to be like a core version of Desert Shroud.

For one thing, Death Shroud, as a transform locking out normal skills including heal, elite, and utility as if it is a Signet of Humility, is only as powerful as it is because Necromancer would be easy prey on a break bar otherwise. Remove the self nerf concept and Necro would be OP in competitive play.

Another thing to consider is shroud degeneration is very similar to using shroud skills with Life Force cost so changing that is not as compelling. With Life Blast on slow auto attack and LF degenerating over time it kind of works out the same and is the reason Reaper Shroud degeneration was increased to compensate for the greater burst. Whereas a fixed Desert Shroud skill LF cost was set to encourage Vitality stat' allocation.

Personally, I would not mind getting rid of the transformation but would be just as elated if Shroud's parascute was restored or its ability to block 100% of a hit before being knocked out of shroud.

@Anchoku.8142 said:Another thing to consider is shroud degeneration is very similar to using shroud skills with Life Force cost so changing that is not as compelling. With Life Blast on slow auto attack and LF degenerating over time it kind of works out the same and is the reason Reaper Shroud degeneration was increased to compensate for the greater burst.

Shroud degeneration and skills with life force cost do have big differences though.

Firstly, shroud degeneration is like a time limit, if we don't consider taking damage; it doesn't matter whether we use skills, and what skills we use. Spamming everything in shroud has the same degeneration as being afk in it.

Also, if multiple things require life force, it adds another layer of complexity to necromancer, as to what to spend it on. That, and some versatility, since using those skills is not dependent on death shroud anymore.

Awesome. Some notes that people have brought up here that I should have considered but didn't that I'll reflect on.

Life Force Generating skills

I only really considered Signet of Undeath when thinking about this and how it could maintain life force for quite a while while in shroud, which it does currently with the signet trait. I Had known about this but I didn't stop to consider the Life Force skills from both weapons and utility skills that also generate life force. This is a good point. And it could be overwhelming in some situations. As for how to remedy this issue there are a few options. Such as the removal of shroud damage reduction, increasing shroud degeneration to that equal to reaper, Non-life force skills costing a small bit of life force, Life force skills having their life force gain cut while in shroud or something else I might not have considered.I absolutely think this is a point worth taking note of. And I had thought about this fact in the past, but it slipped my mind here. Good point.

Weapon power VS Death Shroud Power

This I actually did consider before hand, and had been juggling it but felt the risk is worth it. I still feel that way now. Currently, I'd say that the weapon Kits necromancer has available to them for their core are better than the Kit the shroud provides you. Scepter being the gold standard imo. I'd say that this could be an issue having access to normal weapon skills in shroud such as dagger using Death Perception on a long duration could be quite good as a melee bruiser type build especially in combination with Death magic removing conditions and providing a power boost. But I'm not sure it would honestly be that much better than what we have. Still it is absolutely worth considering.

@Yasai.3549 said:Imo what would be cool is to rework Minions and integrate them into Necromancer's Profession mechanic.

F1 F2 F3 F4 will be reworked minions along with their flip skills (main feature will be either letting the Minion live to continue attacking or activating the flip skill to kill them and put them into cooldown)F5 will be their Shroud.

When the Necromancer uses F5, they will absorb their Minions into their Shroud giving them bonus stats if they were not consumed prior to activation, and upon Shroud ending, these Minions will be released from the Necromancer to continue attacking, but their flip skills will be on a short 3 second cooldown before allowing activation.

I'm for that as an Elite specialization. I've recently redesigned one called the Diabolist which i've posted not too long ago. As for the core class? I'm more against that since minions are a part of our design, but not the only aspect of necromancy.

Shroud 2 should be ground target transfer skill with blast finisher or something, shroud 4 should give stability and do condi or power damage and shroud 5 should do something cool like pull enemies and knockback them or something. Shroud doesn't need any complicated mechanics.

@Junkpile.7439 said:Shroud 2 should be ground target transfer skill with blast finisher or something, shroud 4 should give stability and do condi or power damage and shroud 5 should do something cool like pull enemies and knockback them or something. Shroud doesn't need any complicated mechanics.

I'd Argue this simplifies shroud. Not complicates it. It also allows for a better flow for build craft.

@Lily.1935 said:

I'm for that as an Elite specialization. I've recently redesigned one called the Diabolist which i've posted not too long ago. As for the core class? I'm more against that since minions are a part of our design, but not the only aspect of necromancy.

I meant it as an additional mechanic because of how weak and lacklustre Necro is out of shroud.

Out of Shroud F1 - F4 will be MinionsF5 will still have shroud skills.

Will also add a layer of complexity to the Core Profession.

Things like Scourge will have their F1 - F4s altered to feature minions maybe.

@Yasai.3549 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

I'm for that as an Elite specialization. I've recently redesigned one called the Diabolist which i've posted not too long ago. As for the core class? I'm more against that since minions are a part of our design, but not the only aspect of necromancy.

That would just be adding power creep if it is the way it sounds, which isn't what the devs want to do right now.

I don't understand. the only changes I see are the life force cost, of which life blast is WAY too high lol.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:I don't understand. the only changes I see are the life force cost, of which life blast is WAY too high lol.

Tainted Shackles is an aoe channel skill similar to Life transfer and the skills themselves become F skills as opposed to shroud locking you out of your whole bar. The Abilities are always available too. Also, Life blast has a reduced cast time. And it should be that high with this set up as its supposed to burn through life force to provide devastating damage. That was the idea.

@Lily.1935 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:I don't understand. the only changes I see are the life force cost, of which life blast is WAY too high lol.

ah wow somehow I missed this part... you know the thing staring me in the face. my only excuse is that it was early in the morning and I haven't had any coffee yet.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:I don't understand. the only changes I see are the life force cost, of which life blast is WAY too high lol.

Its alright.