Solo Training Mode for Key Mechanics in Specific Raids

It is no stranger to raiders that most often whenever setting a group via LFG, we most often stuck 8~9 group members while waiting for one player who could handle a vital mechanic role.

Tank, kiter, pusher usually fall into this category.

The truth is that many raid bosses consist pattern grinding mechanics would require players of these roles to perform flawlessly throughout the whole 10 minutes boss fight, the penality of one mistake would result a group wipe, making it not an ideal situation for players who wish to practice these mechanics at the expense of 9 other players.

It's also equally stressful in a raid guild trying to train up one or two guild members for a certain role as well, for example:Imaging in Deimos, having the whole squad repeating the opening chain phase for over one hour in order to have one player practice hand-kiting,
then repeat the same process for another player. This is both stressful and boring for either trainer or trainee.

My suggestion is to expand training golem section for more mechanic simulations, where we could practice without the said barriers.

This is an excellent idea. Not sure it is feasible but it would really help the player base. I don't join raids because I don't want to do something wrong, get kicked, or make a group wipe. I started Strikes right when they were released and we are all learning together. It is really annoying in Whisper when you tell people not to strafe with the chain on and they still do it. I think really it is a reaction out of fear when it happens. A solo training mode would certainly be a great learning tool. Sometimes I just want to get through it get my daily chest/crystals and move on so wiping over and over and having to reform the group because people leave gets pretty tedious.

Could deff see in the training area having some of the general mechanics available for practive, like stack aoes, spread aoes, soak aoes, mechanics that need to be cced etc.

@Vilin.8056 said:The truth is that many raid bosses consist pattern grinding mechanics would require players of these roles to perform flawlessly

None require you to be flawless

throughout the whole 10 minutes boss fight,

Bosses don't typically take 10 min unless there's something seriously wrong with your group.

the penality of one mistake would result a group wipe,

Only a handful of bosses have something that could wipe a group and most of them are essentially the same mechanic.

making it not an ideal situation for players who wish to practice these mechanics at the expense of 9 other players.

This is what training runs are for.

That said, I don't see any problems with the training golem area being expanded but I see this feature being under-utilized by the players because training on a specific mechanic in a bubble (or however the phrase goes) is not the same as doing the mechanic in the actually raid.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:The truth is that many raid bosses consist pattern grinding mechanics would require players of these roles to perform flawlessly

throughout the whole 10 minutes boss fight,

the penality of one mistake would result a group wipe,

making it not an ideal situation for players who wish to practice these mechanics at the expense of 9 other players.

Disagree with most of this sorry. If your HK, pusher or solo kite on quadim dies its GG. If one of your greens die on dhuum in pugs its GG if they miss orb. Theyre all very different mechanics and some require unique builds to do them. Even easier mechanics like kiting largos can result in a full wipe if its messed up. Most pugs cant handle the boons.

Even most training guilds dont run training specifically for unique mechanics. Most training are there to familiarize the whole group with the general fight. If its a new player on the role the training turns into 9 people supporting the 1 guy who's learning the unique mechanic for 2 hrs. Its unfun for everyone.I still feel bad for the poor guys who had to do deimos pre event like 20 times while I practiced HK for an hour. I would have loved to just practice in golem. No it wont fully prepare you for the real thing but at least you wont be going in as a total newb. Practicing rotation doesn't prepare you for the real boss either but its still really beneficial to do so. The fact that people do green training solo before doing real dhuum shows there is a benefit to it.

Does that mean I think its worth anet using resources on developing it. Not entirely. Most people can still overcome and learn harder roles with time and a guild, but I do think people would use it if was available.

@zombyturtle.5980 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:The truth is that many raid bosses consist pattern grinding mechanics would require players of these roles to perform flawlessly

throughout the whole 10 minutes boss fight,

the penality of one mistake would result a group wipe,

making it not an ideal situation for players who wish to practice these mechanics at the expense of 9 other players.

Dying is different than having to perform flawlessly. You don't need to be flawless when hand kiting You don't need to be flawless when tanking. Missing big orb at Dhuum isn't a wipe. if someone doing greens dies then it's a player skill issue as they shouldn't be dying. Practicing greens isn't going to resolve this.

Even most training guilds dont run training specifically for unique mechanics. Most training are there to familiarize the whole group with the general fight. If its a new player on the role the training turns into 9 people supporting the 1 guy who's learning the unique mechanic for 2 hrs. Its unfun for everyone.

I said training runs, not guilds.

I still feel bad for the poor guys who had to do deimos pre event like 20 times while I practiced HK for an hour. I would have loved to just practice in golem. No it wont fully prepare you for the real thing but at least you wont be going in as a total newb. Practicing rotation doesn't prepare you for the real boss either but its still really beneficial to do so. The fact that people do green training solo before doing real dhuum shows there is a benefit to it.

Green training is different as it's not something that you'd encounter elsewhere in the game and is really only something you'd need to do a few times just to see it. It's also relatively the same every single time and not influenced by outside factors unlike other roles. For most of the roles, you're better off learning to do them in an actual raid as you're going to have to train in a raid to completely be able to do it anyway. You're not going to learn to tank something like SH in the training area.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

Dying is different than having to perform flawlessly. You don't need to be flawless when hand kiting You don't need to be flawless when tanking.As a Handkiter if you miss a mindcrush you die, you mess up skill cooldowns you die. As a tank if you miss one Demonic Shockwave you die. And if any mentioned roles dies, it's a group wipe. Perform flawlessly is not an understatement.

if someone doing greens dies then it's a player skill issue as they shouldn't be dying. Practicing greens isn't going to resolve this.There's a logic problems regarding this statement, to presume that player skill isn't relative to practice.

I said training runs, not guilds.I guess you don't do much training runs outside your own statics.Raid trainings rarely happend outside of guilds as LFG based training runs are not sustainable.

Green training is different as it's not something that you'd encounter elsewhere in the game and is really only something you'd need to do a few times just to see it. It's also relatively the same every single time and not influenced by outside factors unlike other roles. For most of the roles, you're better off learning to do them in an actual raid as you're going to have to train in a raid to completely be able to do it anyway. You're not going to learn to tank something like SH in the training area.Green training is one of the major example as it requires a group of helpers repeating pre-phase before it actually happens, which is tedious for for long period of time with no benefit. Realistically chances of practicing them in an actual raid, outside of a static squad, is so scarce unless the trainee get to fake himself through an actual run and test their patience long enough before a kick, which is a common raid scenario that inflict trust issues over the raid community.It has been long a problem, not a solution.

Speaking of SH, how often can you find a pusher through LFG? Which also reinforce s my point.

@Vilin.8056 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

Dying is different than having to perform flawlessly. You don't need to be flawless when hand kiting You don't need to be flawless when tanking.As a Handkiter if you miss a mindcrush you die, you mess up skill cooldowns you die. As a tank if you miss one Demonic Shockwave you die. And if any mentioned roles dies, it's a group wipe. Perform flawlessly is not an understatement.

This involves many mechanics which you’re better off doing in a raid environment. How exactly do you expect the training area to help you prepare?

if someone doing greens dies then it's a player skill issue as they shouldn't be dying. Practicing greens isn't going to resolve this.There's a logic problems regarding this statement, to presume that player skill isn't relative to practice.

I never said that player skill isn’t relative to practice so don’t go making that up. There’s plenty of time to get your five orbs and the large orb. If you’re dying, it’s likely due to mechanics outside of greens which is something green training won’t help with.

I said training runs, not guilds.I guess you don't do much training runs outside your own statics.Raid trainings rarely happend outside of guilds as LFG based training runs are not sustainable.

How would any role be learnable solely by training in the training area? As I stated in an earlier post that I’m not necessarily against training mechanics in the training area but let’s not kid ourselves that it would make you ready to do it in an actual raid or be all that effective.

Green training is different as it's not something that you'd encounter elsewhere in the game and is really only something you'd need to do a few times just to see it. It's also relatively the same every single time and not influenced by outside factors unlike other roles. For most of the roles, you're better off learning to do them in an actual raid as you're going to have to train in a raid to completely be able to do it anyway. You're not going to learn to tank something like SH in the training area.Green training is one of the major example as it requires a group of helpers repeating pre-phase before it actually happens, which is tedious for for long period of time with no benefit. Realistically chances of practicing them in an actual raid, outside of a static squad, is so scarce unless the trainee get to fake himself through an actual run and test their patience long enough before a kick, which is a common raid scenario that inflict trust issues over the raid community.It has been long a problem, not a solution.

You can do solo green training with a Dhuum instance.

Speaking of SH, how often can you find a pusher through LFG? Which also reinforce s my point.

And how would the training area help train someone to push which they couldn’t just do in the open world?

@Ayrilana.1396 said:This involves many mechanics which you’re better off doing in a raid environment. How exactly do you expect the training area to help you prepare?

Topic.

I never said that player skill isn’t relative to practice so don’t go making that up.Or read what you said below. I didn't make this up.if someone doing greens dies then it's a player skill issue as they shouldn't be dying. Practicing greens isn't going to resolve this.As said.There’s plenty of time to get your five orbs and the large orb. If you’re dying, it’s likely due to mechanics outside of greens which is something green training won’t help with.Both orb, timing and death penalities are mechanic specific to green which require practice. Your take on whether is plenty of time came from a view point of seasoned raiders of this mechanic, not those who aren't familiar enough with it.

How would any role be learnable solely by training in the training area? As I stated in an earlier post that I’m not necessarily against training mechanics in the training area but let’s not kid ourselves that it would make you ready to do it in an actual raid or be all that effective.If you have been spending time observing players progress in training raids will noticePlayers who are learning mechanic roles usually already familiar with the class, has a general know how, either from their trainers or Youtube guides. It is always one or two specific mechanics that they were bottlenecked between capable or not.A more accessible simulation will help getting through these bottlenecks.

You can do solo green training with a Dhuum instance.We've done duo with a kiter to ease off the fail rate, netherless to say staying the pre phase long enough for one try to occur is also a tedious experiences.

And how would the training area help train someone to push which they couldn’t just do in the open world?

Let's ask the question backward:Everyone could point blank shot in open world, would you trust them to push in your raid?

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

Even most training guilds dont run training specifically for unique mechanics. Most training are there to familiarize the whole group with the general fight. If its a new player on the role the training turns into 9 people supporting the 1 guy who's learning the unique mechanic for 2 hrs. Its unfun for everyone.

I still feel bad for the poor guys who had to do deimos pre event like 20 times while I practiced HK for an hour. I would have loved to just practice in golem. No it wont fully prepare you for the real thing but at least you wont be going in as a total newb. Practicing rotation doesn't prepare you for the real boss either but its still really beneficial to do so. The fact that people do green training solo before doing real dhuum shows there is a benefit to it.

It took me about 2 hrs to learn how to properly do greens with no chance of dying. Maybe I learn slow but it definitely took me more than a few tries. The same with pushing on SH. I have trained a few new pushers in a guild training and they were still killing the group and messing up after 2 hours. Everyone else was frustrated. They got there in the end but its not a great experience.

Again I think its probably not worth the effort of devs to implement this but I think it would be very useful.

Agree would be nice if you could skip the pre on dhuum after you finish it once.

@Vilin.8056 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:This involves many mechanics which you’re better off doing in a raid environment. How exactly do you expect the training area to help you prepare?

Topic.

Not an answer but ok.

I never said that player skill isn’t relative to practice so don’t go making that up.Or read what you said below. I didn't make this up.if someone doing greens dies then it's a player skill issue as they shouldn't be dying. Practicing greens isn't going to resolve this.As said.

Players doing greens generally are not dying from failing to get all 5 orbs. This was why I said that practicing greens itself wouldn't help. Oh look! The very next part of my post that you quoted below indicated this.

There’s plenty of time to get your five orbs and the large orb. If you’re dying, it’s likely due to mechanics outside of greens which is something green training won’t help with.Both orb, timing and death penalities are mechanic specific to green which require practice. Your take on whether is plenty of time came from a view point of seasoned raiders of this mechanic, not those who aren't familiar enough with it.

There's plenty of time to get the 5 orbs and large orb. Someone that has never done greens only needs to try it a few times just to experience it. It's really no different than at the transition of the 10% phase minus the large orb.

How would any role be learnable solely by training in the training area? As I stated in an earlier post that I’m not necessarily against training mechanics in the training area but let’s not kid ourselves that it would make you ready to do it in an actual raid or be all that effective.If you have been spending time observing players progress in training raids will noticePlayers who are learning mechanic roles usually already familiar with the class, has a general know how, either from their trainers or Youtube guides. It is always one or two specific mechanics that they were bottlenecked between capable or not.A more accessible simulation will help getting through these bottlenecks.

Explain to me how you expect the training area to properly be able to prepare you to do a specific role in a live raid? Also keep in mind your statement that they have to "perform flawlessly".

You can do solo green training with a Dhuum instance.We've done duo with a kiter to ease off the fail rate, netherless to say staying the pre phase long enough for one try to occur is also a tedious experiences.

Not really.

And how would the training area help train someone to push which they couldn’t just do in the open world?

Let's ask the question backward:Everyone could point blank shot in open world, would you trust them to push in your raid?

Would you trust someone to push when their only experience is in the training area? There are things to account for with pushing that can't be replicated in a training area.

@zombyturtle.5980 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

How would the training area teach you about position for the pizza attack went that's also reliant on the tank's positioning? Blocking mindcrush is simply about knowing the duration of Deimos' channeling time, the duration of your block, and when you should use this. The training area really won't help all that much in this regard.

Missing a big orb shouldn't be a wipe as the tank should reposition.

Even most training guilds dont run training specifically for unique mechanics. Most training are there to familiarize the whole group with the general fight. If its a new player on the role the training turns into 9 people supporting the 1 guy who's learning the unique mechanic for 2 hrs. Its unfun for everyone.

Explain to me how you expect the training area to properly train you to do hand kiting in a live raid environment? Will you be able to go into a live raid and perform your role as flawlessly as you indicate that it needs to be?

I still feel bad for the poor guys who had to do deimos pre event like 20 times while I practiced HK for an hour. I would have loved to just practice in golem. No it wont fully prepare you for the real thing but at least you wont be going in as a total newb. Practicing rotation doesn't prepare you for the real boss either but its still really beneficial to do so. The fact that people do green training solo before doing real dhuum shows there is a benefit to it.

For SH, how would the training area train you to push and leave you prepared to push in a live raid? There are a lot of other factors that you need to account for when pushing that cannot be replicated in a training area. What if there's a wall coming? What if you need to hold your push?

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:This involves many mechanics which you’re better off doing in a raid environment. How exactly do you expect the training area to help you prepare?

Topic.

I never said that player skill isn’t relative to practice so don’t go making that up.Or read what you said below. I didn't make this up.if someone doing greens dies then it's a player skill issue as they shouldn't be dying. Practicing greens isn't going to resolve this.As said.

There’s plenty of time to get your five orbs and the large orb. If you’re dying, it’s likely due to mechanics outside of greens which is something green training won’t help with.Both orb, timing and death penalities are mechanic specific to green which require practice. Your take on whether is plenty of time came from a view point of seasoned raiders of this mechanic, not those who aren't familiar enough with it.

How would any role be learnable solely by training in the training area? As I stated in an earlier post that I’m not necessarily against training mechanics in the training area but let’s not kid ourselves that it would make you ready to do it in an actual raid or be all that effective.If you have been spending time observing players progress in training raids will noticePlayers who are learning mechanic roles usually already familiar with the class, has a general know how, either from their trainers or Youtube guides. It is always one or two specific mechanics that they were bottlenecked between capable or not.A more accessible simulation will help getting through these bottlenecks.

You can do solo green training with a Dhuum instance.We've done duo with a kiter to ease off the fail rate, netherless to say staying the pre phase long enough for one try to occur is also a tedious experiences.

And how would the training area help train someone to push which they couldn’t just do in the open world?

Let's ask the question backward:Everyone could point blank shot in open world, would you trust them to push in your raid?

@zombyturtle.5980 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

Even most training guilds dont run training specifically for unique mechanics. Most training are there to familiarize the whole group with the general fight. If its a new player on the role the training turns into 9 people supporting the 1 guy who's learning the unique mechanic for 2 hrs. Its unfun for everyone.

I still feel bad for the poor guys who had to do deimos pre event like 20 times while I practiced HK for an hour. I would have loved to just practice in golem. No it wont fully prepare you for the real thing but at least you wont be going in as a total newb. Practicing rotation doesn't prepare you for the real boss either but its still really beneficial to do so. The fact that people do green training solo before doing real dhuum shows there is a benefit to it.

The point is not to 100% prepare you to go into full clear groups and perform perfectly. The point is to practice the basics of special mechanics and gain some understanding of what to do so when you go into low LI or training you are semi prepared and arent going to waste 9 other ppls time starting from scratch for 2 hrs. If you can already HK stacking 5 hands well and time mindcrush without thinking, you are fine to focus on avoiding pizza in a real raid scenario and adapting to other situations. If you are struggling to focus on not dying to hands and performing your rotation well, its likely you will die to other mechanics.

This is why people tell new players to watch videos of mechanics and practice their rotation on golem. Will either make you ready for a real raid? No. But it will give you a massive head start and make learning much easier when you try it in practice.

Despite what you claim, most people cannot learn special mechanics in 1-2 tries. Especially greens. It will take multiple pulls. Even if I am one of the slowest learners in the game, which I doubt, it took me on average 1 hr of wiping to learn most special mechanics.

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:

There's plenty of time to get the 5 orbs and large orb. Someone that has never done greens only needs to try it a few times just to experience it. It's really no different than at the transition of the 10% phase minus the large orb.Again you're taking this only from a seasoned raider's perspective. It may takes only a few tries to experience the green mechanic but that doesn't mean it'll guarantee player can do all 5+1 in every phase to avoid irreversible death.

Explain to me how you expect the training area to properly be able to prepare you to do a specific role in a live raid? Also keep in mind your statement that they have to "perform flawlessly".How fully emulated do you need when you practice these roles really? One or two major mechanic to spawn in the area will help a long way.Just like DPS benchmark on a golem does not behave like a real raid scenario, doesn't mean it isn't a training tool for DPS roles.The goal is to smooth out the learning curve of these roles here with more efficiency and less negativity.

Not really.Your opinion, but ok.

Would you trust someone to push when their only experience is in the training area? There are things to account for with pushing that can't be replicated in a training area.I am fully aware of that, least the squad would be more willing to let them try rather than someone who couldn't even push the right direction or completely miss the shot.

Tactical adjustments are usually far more easier to adapt than mechanical ones.

How would the training area teach you about position for the pizza attack went that's also reliant on the tank's positioning? Blocking mindcrush is simply about knowing the duration of Deimos' channeling time, the duration of your block, and when you should use this. The training area really won't help all that much in this regard.

And how much problem would the pizza or the mindcrush be to a handkiter have once he could sustainably stack 4-5 hands in one spot for 3 rows?

Explain to me how you expect the training area to properly train you to do hand kiting in a live raid environment? Will you be able to go into a live raid and perform your role as flawlessly as you indicate that it needs to be?By having the schematics that could simulates handspawns at the same intervals.The question should be asked is:Where do you even start, when without a static group for role training of these demanding tasks.

I'd get bored when I finally do the boss.

I would personally LOVE a way to practice greens without having to waste my groups time or waste mine working through pre phase solo to maybe get to the first green.

I'm not young anymore and it takes me a lot to master mechanics. Yes. I get bug zapped. I don't have it memorized. I frequently do not get all five. Heck, half the time I miss going up altogether. Rule is I will volunteer but after two wipes I'm done. I will not waste the time of my group on this.

It's definitely a lack of skill on my part. Yup. So having a place to practice repeatedly would, y'know, improve my skill. Theoretically. Like it has taken me about 100 Deimos' to finally get the timing of the Dodge down.