Heal renegade (Harrier's) or Boon support (Berserker/Diviner's)? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Heal renegade (Harrier's) or Boon support (Berserker/Diviner's)?

I have a power DH and a condi scourge and I am looking to roundout my stable with a support char. After playing around a bit I realised I would like that to be a revenant. There are 2 specs that are considered good for rev and those are: boon support (berserker, diviner) and heal (harrier). Since both sets come down to 200-225g, I can only afford to make one. Which spec should I be going for? I do fractals daily and raids semi weekly. Increasingly I am also doing the daily strike. Any advice that would help me make my decision?

Comments

  • Painbow.6059Painbow.6059 Member ✭✭

    I would recommend diviners. In fractals, the renegade nearly always plays diviners in groups with a healer, making it easier for you to join groups. In raids, PuG's will typically have the firebrand play heal and look for a diviner ren (although contrary to popular practice having a harrier renegade paired with a condi quickbrand is the best firebrigade heal option) - the same applies for Strikes.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2020

    For fractals, definitely diviners.

    I gave up on heal renegade because nobody seems to want it since they all demand a healbrand. Also while pugs seem bad at stacking they're pretty adept at running away from your tablet. A heal renegade only makes sense for groups that don't need a healbrand but also still need a healer-- which is almost no one if you are pugging so diviners fits in 99% of the time.

  • Even though Heal ren + Quickbrand is better than Healbrand + Diviner ren, most people don't know/understand that and just copy whatever they see the most, so Diviner is your best bet for PvE.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What others have said:
    Due to ease of use, diviner renegade and heal fb is the most common support comp for fractals (and often raids), even if heal ren+quick brand would be better.

    Here is a small recommendation:
    You need aroubd 75% boon duration total for permanent alacrity. With fractal potions, this can easily be achieved without diviner armor. Use the berserker DH set, adjust food, get trinkets and weapons, and you are ready.

    If you enjoy the class, then make another diviner set.

  • Taedan.5786Taedan.5786 Member ✭✭

    Thanks! I will be going with diviners.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You need aroubd 75% boon duration total for permanent alacrity.

    Last time I checked this was 78% but most rens have 80-85% to have at least 0.5sec overcap.
    For fractals this could be full diviner with berserker force + impact weapons and diviner concentration + force for raids.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    about fractals:
    harrier armor + cleric juve is more easy and BEST way to prepare your revenant for support in fractals on t4
    If you can close CMS - deviner
    on t4 with chill party diviner revenant can be useless not othen that healsup.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Taedan.5786Taedan.5786 Member ✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:
    about fractals:
    harrier armor + cleric juve is more easy and BEST way to prepare your revenant for support in fractals on t4
    If you can close CMS - deviner
    on t4 with chill party diviner revenant can be useless not othen that healsup.

    Im sorry I dont quite follow what youre saying? Youre saying harriers renegade is more usefull in fractals?

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2020

    @Taedan.5786 said:

    @lare.5129 said:
    about fractals:
    harrier armor + cleric juve is more easy and BEST way to prepare your revenant for support in fractals on t4
    If you can close CMS - deviner
    on t4 with chill party diviner revenant can be useless not othen that healsup.

    Im sorry I dont quite follow what youre saying? Youre saying harriers renegade is more usefull in fractals?

    Meta for fractals is quickbrand, alarene, soulbeast, bs and dps. (No heal)
    However pug meta is quickbrand, HEAL renegade, soulbeast, bs and dps. renegade should heal because quickbrand dps is alot higher than renegade dps so its a huge dps lose to force quickbrand to heal.

    !BUT! Fractals are more safer with healbrand so most ppl tends to go with healbrand instead of heal rene even tho its not as meta.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2020

    @lare.5129 said:
    about fractals:
    harrier armor + cleric juve is more easy and BEST way to prepare your revenant for support in fractals on t4
    If you can close CMS - deviner
    on t4 with chill party diviner revenant can be useless not othen that healsup.

    No, please no.

    There is absolutely no reasoning to assume getting cleric is "easier" on trinkets. Not with the amount of ascended trinkets in all those living worlds season 3, 4 and 5 maps. Might as well use harrier IF you are going for a heal renegade. Cleric is garbage in pve.

    If you are running a "chill" T4 group and regular supports are not sufficient, chance are very high players will not be stacked well enough to make use of a healing renegade. In that case, drop the alacrity, get a healbrand/druid/heal scourge.

    As a matter of fact, if you want to carry ANY group through T4, might just as well make a heal scourge and not waste resources on renegade. As far as renegade, go diviner or berserker and get the boon duration to 80%+.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Taedan.5786 said:

    @lare.5129 said:
    about fractals:
    harrier armor + cleric juve is more easy and BEST way to prepare your revenant for support in fractals on t4
    If you can close CMS - deviner
    on t4 with chill party diviner revenant can be useless not othen that healsup.

    Im sorry I dont quite follow what youre saying? Youre saying harriers renegade is more usefull in fractals?

    Meta for fractals is quickbrand, alarene, soulbeast, bs and dps. (No heal)
    However pug meta is quickbrand, HEAL renegade, soulbeast, bs and dps. renegade should heal because quickbrand dps is alot higher than renegade dps so its a huge dps lose to force quickbrand to heal.

    !BUT! Fractals are more safer with healbrand so most ppl tends to go with healbrand instead of heal rene even tho its not as meta.

    Healren cant strip boons though or give resistance without dropping heal a lot. also kalla spirits are quite useless vs certain encounters. I've never seen a pug healren. I only rarely play it in fractals like mai trin with very kitten instabs with a cm group that usually plays without a healer.
    If you want to be optimal you should replace that slb for most of the normal t4 fractals aswell since it is just garbage in fractals like sirens reef. Its only meta for cms.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2020

    @Taedan.5786 said:
    Im sorry I dont quite follow what youre saying? Youre saying harriers renegade is more usefull in fractals?

    yes, harriers renegade is best choose.
    I have leg armor, and use 3 prepared builds
    1)harrier +cleric fro common t4 run where I need heal
    2)diviner for cms run with VERY exp people. Sometimes we not use heal in party at all.
    3)plaguedoctor for some runs with once per week 4 scourge setup from my freindlis.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    There is absolutely no reasoning to assume getting cleric is "easier" on trinkets. Not with the amount of ascended trinkets in all those living worlds season 3, 4 and 5 maps

    If have ls3 ls4 yes. If not - and want go fractal NOW, not next day the way is get setup per day is change arrmor stats to harrier, and use cleric juve.
    After some time ofc some cleric change to harrier till 100% boon duration. I am talk about "one day preparation biuld"

    If you are running a "chill" T4 group and regular supports are not sufficient, chance are very high players will not be stacked well enough to make use of a healing renegade. In that case, drop the alacrity, get a healbrand/druid/heal scourge.

    As I say sometimes we need healrabnd, healrene and heal scourge and 2 dps. Because without 3 heals that dps die each 20 seconds. All depend from skill. In chill guild run we otfen use 3 supports + 2 dps setup

    This is NOT meta. This is normal common non speed chill run with giuld members or pugs wihtout kp.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Taedan.5786 said:

    @lare.5129 said:
    about fractals:
    harrier armor + cleric juve is more easy and BEST way to prepare your revenant for support in fractals on t4
    If you can close CMS - deviner
    on t4 with chill party diviner revenant can be useless not othen that healsup.

    Im sorry I dont quite follow what youre saying? Youre saying harriers renegade is more usefull in fractals?

    Meta for fractals is quickbrand, alarene, soulbeast, bs and dps. (No heal)
    However pug meta is quickbrand, HEAL renegade, soulbeast, bs and dps. renegade should heal because quickbrand dps is alot higher than renegade dps so its a huge dps lose to force quickbrand to heal.

    !BUT! Fractals are more safer with healbrand so most ppl tends to go with healbrand instead of heal rene even tho its not as meta.

    Healren cant strip boons though or give resistance without dropping heal a lot. also kalla spirits are quite useless vs certain encounters. I've never seen a pug healren. I only rarely play it in fractals like mai trin with very kitten instabs with a cm group that usually plays without a healer.
    If you want to be optimal you should replace that slb for most of the normal t4 fractals aswell since it is just garbage in fractals like sirens reef. Its only meta for cms.

    Well meta is not often played with pugs and heal rene should be taken over non heal composition if group requires a bit more support.
    Like I said, most ppl dont care and just takes healbrand to cheese encounters.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2020

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    There is absolutely no reasoning to assume getting cleric is "easier" on trinkets. Not with the amount of ascended trinkets in all those living worlds season 3, 4 and 5 maps

    If have ls3 ls4 yes. If not - and want go fractal NOW, not next day the way is get setup per day is change arrmor stats to harrier, and use cleric juve.
    After some time ofc some cleric change to harrier till 100% boon duration. I am talk about "one day preparation biuld"

    If you are running a "chill" T4 group and regular supports are not sufficient, chance are very high players will not be stacked well enough to make use of a healing renegade. In that case, drop the alacrity, get a healbrand/druid/heal scourge.

    As I say sometimes we need healrabnd, healrene and heal scourge and 2 dps. Because without 3 heals that dps die each 20 seconds. All depend from skill. In chill guild run we otfen use 3 supports + 2 dps setup

    This is NOT meta. This is normal common non speed chill run with giuld members or pugs wihtout kp.

    Sorry, but you shouldn't ever need 3 healers to survive normal T4 fractals. I have never seen a PUG group require 3 healers (then again, I often would go heal scourge in the past. Last few months I've only run CMs +T4, so maybe PUG groups have become this terrible).

    Drop all those healers and take a heal scourge if the group performance is that bad. It will both prove a far better carry and you are free to take up to 4 dps which cuts encounter time (and thus damage taken) significantly. Or make a 5 scourge group to cheese the content.

    That's actually one of the biggest mistakes weak groups make: assume more healing will make fractals easier, when in fact, it often makes it worse. Having enough damage to clear regular enemies in normal T4s is a huge aspect of reducing damage taken to the group.

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BRNBRITO.9624 said:
    Even though Heal ren + Quickbrand is better than Healbrand + Diviner ren, most people don't know/understand that and just copy whatever they see the most, so Diviner is your best bet for PvE.

    It depends. Heal firebrand has more healing. Renegade heals a ton but players needs to be atacking which is not always the case

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2020

    I think scourge is generally overkill for anything besides Siren's Reef and some devilish combo of instabilities. IMO, if you're doing t4s, you should have a bit more self respect than to get carried by that. If your party is so potato that they need scourges, then you're better off with a new party or just going power reaper and solo dpsing this kitten. In some cases pugs are better left dead because they'll mess up mechanics. For example, a fight is harder if someone tries to range Mai Trinn.

    Any variant of Firebrigade where either plays healer is generally sufficient for your average t4 pug that actually tries to do something just because it covers all forms of defense, offensive boons, and damage so everyone can dps like its a golem. In general, you can find a random healbrand that does ok if they press buttons but I think Rene is a bit harder to play so bringing Diviner Rene can help more. Plus you can actually do damage too. You also will fit in a real comp better anyways.

    Statics are of course, a different story, and everyone has their own needs.

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @BRNBRITO.9624 said:
    Even though Heal ren + Quickbrand is better than Healbrand + Diviner ren, most people don't know/understand that and just copy whatever they see the most, so Diviner is your best bet for PvE.

    It depends. Heal firebrand has more healing. Renegade heals a ton but players needs to be atacking which is not always the case

    It's not really an issue of healing but rather that firebrand is capable of much higher burst than renegade. (or so I've been told) Thus it makes more sense for the Renegade to sacrifice their dps than the firebrand.

    However, weaker players are just better handled by firebrand's blocks and massive utility from tomes. While Quickbrand can also provide blocks, they'd lose a boatload of dps should they switch to a defensive tome. And as you stated, weaker players also aren't going to be able to burst when Soulcleaver is up on demand. So in practice, groups that need a healer are usually better off with a healbrand, and groups that don't need it won't need a heal because they phase the boss too fast anyways. Heal renegade pretty much just fills that tiny gap in between and that is why it just doesn't show up in practice when it comes to pugging.

    Also, by now, people are probably just farming fractals for dailies rather than going full tryhard, so they'd rather have a firebrand negate some mechanics while they do it on autopilot.

  • @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    It depends. Heal firebrand has more healing. Renegade heals a ton but players needs to be atacking which is not always the case

    Theres more to Healing Renegade than Soulcleave Summit. If you only want Soulcleave Summit for healing you should probably play diviner renegade. Soulcleave Summit is strong enough without Healingpower.
    The Tablet is quite strong and theres still Breakrazors Bastion. That thing heals for almost 3k per second and lasts 10 seconds.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Sorry, but you shouldn't ever need 3 healers to survive normal T4 fractals.

    yes, you right. It shouldn't not be. But it is.

    I have never seen a PUG group require 3 healers .. Last few months I've only run CMs +T4

    CMs +T4 ? As I say on that group ofc not need heal rene biuld. PUG very diferent. You can wiht some party do all cms and t4 per hour, and wiht other you need 2 hours to make T4s instances with guild embers and without any toxication.

    Drop all those healers and take a heal scourge if the group performance is that bad.

    yes, it bad. But on other hand you have rule "dead people don't do any damage at all"

    Or make a 5 scourge group to cheese the content.

    yes, sometimes we do condi party, I take plaguedoctor, and have 4 dps scourge friend in party.

    That's actually one of the biggest mistakes weak groups make: assume more healing will make fractals easier

    easy is take very skilled people and do it in any setup. But this is not common run

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2020

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Sorry, but you shouldn't ever need 3 healers to survive normal T4 fractals.

    yes, you right. It shouldn't not be. But it is.

    In that case, please make clear that you are talking about absolute bottom skill level players in T4.

    No group with players who have a basic understanding of this game should be the target for 3 healer setups in 5 man groups for NORMAL T4s.

    If people can't survive with 2 healers (which is already 1 healer more than needed, but let's assume it's a day with difficult instabilities), they need to reevaluate how they approach content, and maybe not face tank every single attack.

    This is not about something being meta or not. Using 3 healers is pretty much terrible and will only be used to compensate for absolute terrible play. Every person in such a group would be better off to spend 5 minutes training dodge rather than getting carried by other players never learning mechanics. I guarantee you, if you go into public groups with a mindset that you need 3 healers, you will get removed many many times. So while this might work for a guild group, it's terrible to actually play with random players for regular PUGs.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Sorry, but you shouldn't ever need 3 healers to survive normal T4 fractals.

    yes, you right. It shouldn't not be. But it is.

    I have never seen a PUG group require 3 healers .. Last few months I've only run CMs +T4

    CMs +T4 ? As I say on that group ofc not need heal rene biuld. PUG very diferent. You can wiht some party do all cms and t4 per hour, and wiht other you need 2 hours to make T4s instances with guild embers and without any toxication.

    Drop all those healers and take a heal scourge if the group performance is that bad.

    yes, it bad. But on other hand you have rule "dead people don't do any damage at all"

    Or make a 5 scourge group to cheese the content.

    yes, sometimes we do condi party, I take plaguedoctor, and have 4 dps scourge friend in party.

    That's actually one of the biggest mistakes weak groups make: assume more healing will make fractals easier

    easy is take very skilled people and do it in any setup. But this is not common run

    Only place 3 healer is needed is needed so far is overheal boneskinner strike mission mate but thats out of 10 opeople so 1½ in fractals should be enough for everyone =P

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    It depends. Heal firebrand has more healing. Renegade heals a ton but players needs to be atacking which is not always the case

    Theres more to Healing Renegade than Soulcleave Summit. If you only want Soulcleave Summit for healing you should probably play diviner renegade. Soulcleave Summit is strong enough without Healingpower.
    The Tablet is quite strong and theres still Breakrazors Bastion. That thing heals for almost 3k per second and lasts 10 seconds.

    Yes. But the problem is that you dont have it on demand. Sometimes you have to be in kalla for healing. If players dont fail so they need hsaling suddenly tjen renegade is better. But if someo e is getting hit constantly...
    Firebrand has alot more emergency buttons

  • @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    But the problem is that you dont have it on demand. Sometimes you have to be in kalla for healing. If players dont fail so they need hsaling suddenly tjen renegade is >better. But if someo e is getting hit constantly...
    Firebrand has alot more emergency buttons

    But thats basically what Breakrazors is for. You can put Soulcleave on the boss and you still have Breakrazors for emergencys. For example when someone doesnt wanna stack. And if you are not on Kalla you have the tablet. A strong heal with actually good range.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    But the problem is that you dont have it on demand. Sometimes you have to be in kalla for healing. If players dont fail so they need hsaling suddenly tjen renegade is >better. But if someo e is getting hit constantly...
    Firebrand has alot more emergency buttons

    But thats basically what Breakrazors is for. You can put Soulcleave on the boss and you still have Breakrazors for emergencys. For example when someone doesnt wanna stack. And if you are not on Kalla you have the tablet. A strong heal with actually good range.

    And then breakrazor dies or gets cc'd. Party can also die to condi spam thanks to incredible energy costs on those skills. Healren only works with good players, fb can hardcarry.

  • @Nephalem.8921 said:
    And then breakrazor dies or gets cc'd. Party can also die to condi spam thanks to incredible energy costs on those skills. Healren only works with good players, fb can hardcarry.

    I have never seen Breakrazors die before players do. CC can be an issue. Some work and some dont. The Spirits donw always care. Breakrazors halfes the amount Condi Damage you take. If you really have to cleanse you can use Staff 4 to cleanse 2 condtions. Your tablet will cleanse another 3. Already 5 conditions cleansed, you still take half damage and if you really have to you can use your tablet again.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    In that case, please make clear that you are talking about absolute bottom skill level players in T4.

    if you not ask 200kp - it is absolute bottom skill. Aslo if player link it - that absolute not gurantee that player with near bottom level.

    No group with players who have a basic understanding of this game should be the target for 3 healer setups in 5 man groups for NORMAL T4s.

    k, make it not 3, realy it is 2.5. Keep point that scourge heal in raid sup biuld can do good dps.

    If people can't survive with 2 healers (which is already 1 healer more than needed, but let's assume it's a day with difficult instabilities), they need to reevaluate how they approach content, and maybe not face tank every single attack.

    yes, they need. And you can say that them and leave .. O make chill run wihtout any toxic.

    to actually play with random players for regular PUGs.

    absolutely true, and absolutely wrong. regular PUGs have very wide sides .. There is regular toxic pugs for cms, and chill t4 run where people ask "t4 heal dps". Do not try merge it.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Taedan.5786Taedan.5786 Member ✭✭

    Im loving this discussion guys. Its really insightful. Do you think its easier to command a run (fractal, raid or strike) on a heal or a boon support specced rev?

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2020

    @Linken.6345 said:
    Only place 3 healer is needed is needed so far is overheal boneskinner strike mission mate but thats out of 10 opeople so 1½ in fractals should be enough for everyone =P

    On my runs boneskinner sometimes do common with 5 healers setup. Minimal count 4. So it we do calculiation by % it is as I say 2.5
    2hfb alacheal scrourge druid. Sometimes one of hfb swap to qfb

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    And then breakrazor dies or gets cc'd. Party can also die to condi spam thanks to incredible energy costs on those skills. Healren only works with good players, fb can hardcarry.

    I have never seen Breakrazors die before players do. CC can be an issue. Some work and some dont. The Spirits donw always care. Breakrazors halfes the amount Condi Damage you take. If you really have to cleanse you can use Staff 4 to cleanse 2 condtions. Your tablet will cleanse another 3. Already 5 conditions cleansed, you still take half damage and if you really have to you can use your tablet again.

    Some aoes ignore the pet dmg reduction like flux bomb or mai trin fields.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    There is absolutely no reasoning to assume getting cleric is "easier" on trinkets. Not with the amount of ascended trinkets in all those living worlds season 3, 4 and 5 maps

    If have ls3 ls4 yes. If not - and want go fractal NOW, not next day the way is get setup per day is change arrmor stats to harrier, and use cleric juve.
    After some time ofc some cleric change to harrier till 100% boon duration. I am talk about "one day preparation biuld"

    If you are running a "chill" T4 group and regular supports are not sufficient, chance are very high players will not be stacked well enough to make use of a healing renegade. In that case, drop the alacrity, get a healbrand/druid/heal scourge.

    As I say sometimes we need healrabnd, healrene and heal scourge and 2 dps. Because without 3 heals that dps die each 20 seconds. All depend from skill. In chill guild run we otfen use 3 supports + 2 dps setup

    This is NOT meta. This is normal common non speed chill run with giuld members or pugs wihtout kp.

    Sorry, but you shouldn't ever need 3 healers to survive normal T4 fractals. I have never seen a PUG group require 3 healers (then again, I often would go heal scourge in the past. Last few months I've only run CMs +T4, so maybe PUG groups have become this terrible).

    Drop all those healers and take a heal scourge if the group performance is that bad. It will both prove a far better carry and you are free to take up to 4 dps which cuts encounter time (and thus damage taken) significantly. Or make a 5 scourge group to cheese the content.

    That's actually one of the biggest mistakes weak groups make: assume more healing will make fractals easier, when in fact, it often makes it worse. Having enough damage to clear regular enemies in normal T4s is a huge aspect of reducing damage taken to the group.

    Do you have a link for your scourge build? Its still strong after the last few months? Which gear do you use?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2020

    @Radnor.4185 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    There is absolutely no reasoning to assume getting cleric is "easier" on trinkets. Not with the amount of ascended trinkets in all those living worlds season 3, 4 and 5 maps

    If have ls3 ls4 yes. If not - and want go fractal NOW, not next day the way is get setup per day is change arrmor stats to harrier, and use cleric juve.
    After some time ofc some cleric change to harrier till 100% boon duration. I am talk about "one day preparation biuld"

    If you are running a "chill" T4 group and regular supports are not sufficient, chance are very high players will not be stacked well enough to make use of a healing renegade. In that case, drop the alacrity, get a healbrand/druid/heal scourge.

    As I say sometimes we need healrabnd, healrene and heal scourge and 2 dps. Because without 3 heals that dps die each 20 seconds. All depend from skill. In chill guild run we otfen use 3 supports + 2 dps setup

    This is NOT meta. This is normal common non speed chill run with giuld members or pugs wihtout kp.

    Sorry, but you shouldn't ever need 3 healers to survive normal T4 fractals. I have never seen a PUG group require 3 healers (then again, I often would go heal scourge in the past. Last few months I've only run CMs +T4, so maybe PUG groups have become this terrible).

    Drop all those healers and take a heal scourge if the group performance is that bad. It will both prove a far better carry and you are free to take up to 4 dps which cuts encounter time (and thus damage taken) significantly. Or make a 5 scourge group to cheese the content.

    That's actually one of the biggest mistakes weak groups make: assume more healing will make fractals easier, when in fact, it often makes it worse. Having enough damage to clear regular enemies in normal T4s is a huge aspect of reducing damage taken to the group.

    Do you have a link for your scourge build? Its still strong after the last few months? Which gear do you use?

    You can use the metabattle build as baseline: https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Scourge_-_Support_Healer

    Things to note first and foremost:
    1. running scourge is NOT meta in fractals, due to lack of boons, and there will be players who might refuse to group here
    2. this is a strong carry for weak players because it can out-heal pretty much most things thrown at the group. This still requires some competence on the heal scourges part
    3. taking a heal scourge, or heal tempest, in fractals is recommended over taking 2-3 healers. Then again, groups that take 2 or 3 healers will likely benefit of reducing those slots to 1 healer as far as party dps is concerned

    If considering trying this build, I would probably start with the Magi variant in T2 or T3 fractals to get a feel for the build, plus the benefit here is that exotic magi gear is very easy to acquire (armor and weapons off the TP), trinkets can be gained via the usual places like Living World content.

    Or go strait for the hybrid build, though that gear will be more expensive.

    Make sure to read the notes on traits, since some of the traits can greatly change how this build plays, most notably Harbinger Shroud, which is a very strong aoe barrier, but creates a huge yellow circle below the Shade and the necromancer indicating when the barrier triggers. This requires the necromancer to have a good understanding of mechanics because his visibility on ground effects will be impaired (I would recommend to start with Desert Empowerment over Harbinger Shroud since it is easier to use, even if I personally prefer Harbinger myself).

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Radnor.4185 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    There is absolutely no reasoning to assume getting cleric is "easier" on trinkets. Not with the amount of ascended trinkets in all those living worlds season 3, 4 and 5 maps

    If have ls3 ls4 yes. If not - and want go fractal NOW, not next day the way is get setup per day is change arrmor stats to harrier, and use cleric juve.
    After some time ofc some cleric change to harrier till 100% boon duration. I am talk about "one day preparation biuld"

    If you are running a "chill" T4 group and regular supports are not sufficient, chance are very high players will not be stacked well enough to make use of a healing renegade. In that case, drop the alacrity, get a healbrand/druid/heal scourge.

    As I say sometimes we need healrabnd, healrene and heal scourge and 2 dps. Because without 3 heals that dps die each 20 seconds. All depend from skill. In chill guild run we otfen use 3 supports + 2 dps setup

    This is NOT meta. This is normal common non speed chill run with giuld members or pugs wihtout kp.

    Sorry, but you shouldn't ever need 3 healers to survive normal T4 fractals. I have never seen a PUG group require 3 healers (then again, I often would go heal scourge in the past. Last few months I've only run CMs +T4, so maybe PUG groups have become this terrible).

    Drop all those healers and take a heal scourge if the group performance is that bad. It will both prove a far better carry and you are free to take up to 4 dps which cuts encounter time (and thus damage taken) significantly. Or make a 5 scourge group to cheese the content.

    That's actually one of the biggest mistakes weak groups make: assume more healing will make fractals easier, when in fact, it often makes it worse. Having enough damage to clear regular enemies in normal T4s is a huge aspect of reducing damage taken to the group.

    Do you have a link for your scourge build? Its still strong after the last few months? Which gear do you use?

    You can use the metabattle build as baseline: https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Scourge_-_Support_Healer

    Things to note first and foremost:
    1. running scourge is NOT meta in fractals, due to lack of boons, and there will be players who might refuse to group here
    2. this is a strong carry for weak players because it can out-heal pretty much most things thrown at the group. This still requires some competence on the heal scourges part
    3. taking a heal scourge, or heal tempest, in fractals is recommended over taking 2-3 healers. Then again, groups that take 2 or 3 healers will likely benefit of reducing those slots to 1 healer as far as party dps is concerned

    If considering trying this build, I would probably start with the Magi variant in T2 or T3 fractals to get a feel for the build, plus the benefit here is that exotic magi gear is very easy to acquire (armor and weapons off the TP), trinkets can be gained via the usual places like Living World content.

    Or go strait for the hybrid build, though that gear will be more expensive.

    Make sure to read the notes on traits, since some of the traits can greatly change how this build plays, most notably Harbinger Shroud, which is a very strong aoe barrier, but creates a huge yellow circle below the Shade and the necromancer indicating when the barrier triggers. This requires the necromancer to have a good understanding of mechanics because his visibility on ground effects will be impaired (I would recommend to start with Desert Empowerment over Harbinger Shroud since it is easier to use, even if I personally prefer Harbinger myself).

    Thanks for the in depth explanation, really hard to come by; most people just advise me to run a random dps profession ;D. Which exact gear combination are you talking about in a hybrid build? Ministrel, Apothecary, a combination between prefixes?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Radnor.4185 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Radnor.4185 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    There is absolutely no reasoning to assume getting cleric is "easier" on trinkets. Not with the amount of ascended trinkets in all those living worlds season 3, 4 and 5 maps

    If have ls3 ls4 yes. If not - and want go fractal NOW, not next day the way is get setup per day is change arrmor stats to harrier, and use cleric juve.
    After some time ofc some cleric change to harrier till 100% boon duration. I am talk about "one day preparation biuld"

    If you are running a "chill" T4 group and regular supports are not sufficient, chance are very high players will not be stacked well enough to make use of a healing renegade. In that case, drop the alacrity, get a healbrand/druid/heal scourge.

    As I say sometimes we need healrabnd, healrene and heal scourge and 2 dps. Because without 3 heals that dps die each 20 seconds. All depend from skill. In chill guild run we otfen use 3 supports + 2 dps setup

    This is NOT meta. This is normal common non speed chill run with giuld members or pugs wihtout kp.

    Sorry, but you shouldn't ever need 3 healers to survive normal T4 fractals. I have never seen a PUG group require 3 healers (then again, I often would go heal scourge in the past. Last few months I've only run CMs +T4, so maybe PUG groups have become this terrible).

    Drop all those healers and take a heal scourge if the group performance is that bad. It will both prove a far better carry and you are free to take up to 4 dps which cuts encounter time (and thus damage taken) significantly. Or make a 5 scourge group to cheese the content.

    That's actually one of the biggest mistakes weak groups make: assume more healing will make fractals easier, when in fact, it often makes it worse. Having enough damage to clear regular enemies in normal T4s is a huge aspect of reducing damage taken to the group.

    Do you have a link for your scourge build? Its still strong after the last few months? Which gear do you use?

    You can use the metabattle build as baseline: https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Scourge_-_Support_Healer

    Things to note first and foremost:
    1. running scourge is NOT meta in fractals, due to lack of boons, and there will be players who might refuse to group here
    2. this is a strong carry for weak players because it can out-heal pretty much most things thrown at the group. This still requires some competence on the heal scourges part
    3. taking a heal scourge, or heal tempest, in fractals is recommended over taking 2-3 healers. Then again, groups that take 2 or 3 healers will likely benefit of reducing those slots to 1 healer as far as party dps is concerned

    If considering trying this build, I would probably start with the Magi variant in T2 or T3 fractals to get a feel for the build, plus the benefit here is that exotic magi gear is very easy to acquire (armor and weapons off the TP), trinkets can be gained via the usual places like Living World content.

    Or go strait for the hybrid build, though that gear will be more expensive.

    Make sure to read the notes on traits, since some of the traits can greatly change how this build plays, most notably Harbinger Shroud, which is a very strong aoe barrier, but creates a huge yellow circle below the Shade and the necromancer indicating when the barrier triggers. This requires the necromancer to have a good understanding of mechanics because his visibility on ground effects will be impaired (I would recommend to start with Desert Empowerment over Harbinger Shroud since it is easier to use, even if I personally prefer Harbinger myself).

    Thanks for the in depth explanation, really hard to come by; most people just advise me to run a random dps profession ;D. Which exact gear combination are you talking about in a hybrid build? Ministrel, Apothecary, a combination between prefixes?

    It's the second build in the link with Marshal/Shaman Variant gear. One could also use Plaguedoctor in some slots, essentially trading Marshal's Power and Precision for Vitality (still useful on heal necro) and Boon duration (not as useful on heal necro, though not useless).

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2020

    @BRNBRITO.9624 said:
    Even though Heal ren + Quickbrand is better than Healbrand + Diviner ren, most people don't know/understand that and just copy whatever they see the most, so Diviner is your best bet for PvE.

    This isn't true for fractals. Even in raids (but you'd want a druid anyway).
    Yes, on paper, you win DPS against a golem; but in situation you lose a lot of utilities or you need to reconsider roles for alls and lose DPS.

    If you play Ventari/Kalla you can apply perma alacrity, more Mights as you can take LL over RR, and healing, bubble etc. But you'll lose Charged mist(Invocation traitline) and so less soulcleave's summit or CC; or Assassin's Presence (Devastation traitline); you'll bring less "power"buffs overall. While HFB can still play with Bane signet.
    Then, it starts to be complicated when you need to bring Stab or you need to bring boonstrip (Skorvald, chaos, instabilities with boons, some encounters with boons) because you need to change a legend for Jalis or Mallyx and so you lose a big part of the support, your main build is ruined.
    Or you ask your qFB or DH to bring a lot of stab, (mantra/shouts/f3 are less convenient than jalis on Skorvald for example) the war to go Spb, or you have a reaper may be, or a chrono etc, to remove boons ; it's already unnecessarily complicated and annoying.
    Plus, hFB has a faster and easier access to a burst of heal or aegis, cleanse, stab, anti-proj, etc without breaking rotation and role for too long, while Ren can be stuck with low energy, or legend swap's CD the desired moment.
    Plus, you should prefer the extra BD of a hFB rather than a healRen; Fury/mights can be very low with a qFB in pug, same for quickness on differents phases or with a lazy ren (and quickness > alacrity) same for stab, resistance ...
    Plus if you think spirits are not worth : delete the ren and take a DPS. Ren is not a cushynumber only for the "sacred and mandatory" alacrity. (But I got you, most of people won't believe it and still ask for the laziest ren ever rather than a DPS)
    HealFb+(diviner)Ren is a safer and stronger choice, because it responds to more situations overall : differents compositions, fractals, instabilities, differents skill levels of players.

    I'm okai, most of people c/p compositions or build without really knowing why at the moment.
    For exemple Ren+Fb was already a thing at PoF release even before Diviner gear, easier and with a stronger package of utilities than Chrono+druid; but it takes months and videos of sacred guilds for players to understand it and stop laughing at you.
    Lesson : they understand it with time, experience and of course testimony/explanation.
    Lesson 2 : there is nothing to understand of "Heal ren + Quickbrand", because we already have the experience to say the opposite is a better choice almost everywhere. At least for PUG.

    If you play with static you should consider no healer at all.
    FB's tome of resolve #4+#5 + breakrazor + soulcleave's summit = overheal without losing any buff and dps. You don't need Ventari.

  • BRNBRITO.9624BRNBRITO.9624 Member ✭✭
    edited September 17, 2020

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    This isn't true for fractals. Even in raids (but you'd want a druid anyway).
    Yes, on paper, you win DPS against a golem; but in situation you lose a lot of utilities or you need to reconsider roles for alls and lose DPS.

    Was a pretty short comment and forgot to say i was more of a Fractal player.

    Not sure how much changed but NA was basically 99% HB/DivRen/BS/2DPS for pugs, and HealRen + QB always was/is more dps than that AFAIK (highest dps being no healer at all), but people tend to just copy/paste builds with 0% BD and trying to memorize a 1-2-3 rotation when things are not that simple, and that's when it goes downhill, can't just copy-paste if you don't have the same experience/awareness and realistically pull 50% of golem benchmark and constantly get lost on skill priorities.

    No doubt that HB + DivRen is more convenient to just run through stuff daily when pugging, but about "win dps against a golem and lose utility" it'll depend on what kind of parties are people playing with as well as what fractals/instabilities, there's no point running so much support when bosses are basically perma-cc'd and phases are just a few seconds, which is true for a lot of Fractals, but indeed it's a lot of difference from group to group, i remember so much people would get stuck on Siren's Reef last boss because they just refuse to adapt and change a skill/trait... One fractal that a lot of support/survivability is always welcome IMO is Mai Trin.

    Crazy stab uptime on Skorrvald also isn't really needed if people know what they're doing, the anomalies barely have time to attack once, and 33% phase is fast enough that just F3 Tome on QB was enough stab, definitely harder if people are doing 10k ish dps, but the dps checks to skip mechs on GW2 tend to be easy.

    I guess there isn't much of a TL;DR, you need to know how to adapt to every situation by knowing the fractal/instabs, your class as well as other classes and what can others bring in case you're stuck or having a hard time with something, gearing is easy once you're doing Fractals/Raids so it's always worth a shot trying build variations of a class you already know the basics, as well as gearing other classes and learning them even if just a little bit, and experience will come with time.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BRNBRITO.9624 said:

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    This isn't true for fractals. Even in raids (but you'd want a druid anyway).
    Yes, on paper, you win DPS against a golem; but in situation you lose a lot of utilities or you need to reconsider roles for alls and lose DPS.

    Was a pretty short comment and forgot to say i was more of a Fractal player.

    Not sure how much changed but NA was basically 99% HB/DivRen/BS/2DPS for pugs, and HealRen + QB always was/is more dps than that AFAIK (highest dps being no healer at all), but people tend to just copy/paste builds with 0% BD and trying to memorize a 1-2-3 rotation when things are not that simple, and that's when it goes downhill, can't just copy-paste if you don't have the same experience/awareness and realistically pull 50% of golem benchmark and constantly get lost on skill priorities.

    No doubt that HB + DivRen is more convenient to just run through stuff daily when pugging, but about "win dps against a golem and lose utility" it'll depend on what kind of parties are people playing with as well as what fractals/instabilities, there's no point running so much support when bosses are basically perma-cc'd and phases are just a few seconds, which is true for a lot of Fractals, but indeed it's a lot of difference from group to group, i remember so much people would get stuck on Siren's Reef last boss because they just refuse to adapt and change a skill/trait... One fractal that a lot of support/survivability is always welcome IMO is Mai Trin.

    Crazy stab uptime on Skorrvald also isn't really needed if people know what they're doing, the anomalies barely have time to attack once, and 33% phase is fast enough that just F3 Tome on QB was enough stab, definitely harder if people are doing 10k ish dps, but the dps checks to skip mechs on GW2 tend to be easy.

    I guess there isn't much of a TL;DR, you need to know how to adapt to every situation by knowing the fractal/instabs, your class as well as other classes and what can others bring in case you're stuck or having a hard time with something, gearing is easy once you're doing Fractals/Raids so it's always worth a shot trying build variations of a class you already know the basics, as well as gearing other classes and learning them even if just a little bit, and experience will come with time.

    The point is not that I, or you,

    need to know how to adapt to every situation by knowing the fractal/instabs, your class as well as other classes and what can others bring in case you're stuck or having a hard time with something....

    But how much you trust others to do the same.

    If you trust everyone, you don't need healren at all for cms ; ventari is counterproductive, you don't need to waste 10sec on ventari and a trailine for scholar threshold or cleanse you already have otherwise.
    If you don't trust enough players, who for a good part got carried until 250kp and beyond (but it's not the intention, it's just the pug meta) you better want margins of error and an accessible package of utilities in scheduled roles before noticing daily fractals, instabilities and inexperience/laziness of somes, rather than lack of alacrity, or/and so quickness, mights, fury, buffs, cc, dps and debate in each fractals who does what, what gear, what classes ...

    May be it depends in what you means it's better. In a miracle world with invested, smart and supportive players, perhaps.
    After years of pugs, of "metas", and thousands of runs you don't live in this world anymore.

  • I'll just throw vote for Boon Support Diviner Renegade.