Icebrood and Jormag — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home Lore

Icebrood and Jormag

Hypnowulf.7403Hypnowulf.7403 Member ✭✭

The other threads are a little outdated and I know necro-ing is taboo so I just wanted to create a thread to talk about this.

I'm always a little behind the curve playing content, I only just came off of LWS4 a little while ago. I've been doing plenty of reading about The Icebrood Saga but now I'm a good ways into it and it's some of my favourite content, hands down. The Bound by Blood zone was incredible, the Metal Legion... quelle excellence! I loved it. What a bloody madhouse it was. I've always wanted to drive the charriots too and I finally got my chance. This lead into some very, very cleverly written intrigue! Which is lovely as my partner and I live for intrigue. We quickly figured out that (caveat emptor, of course) Braham's guild probably weren't as evil as the vagueness were suggesting, that they might've been the ones to resist the Sons of Svanir rather than slaughtering all of the Vigil soldiers. Intrigue is fun!

Then it turns out that Jormag is non-binary which just made my day. I had no idea that ArenaNet was progressive enough to do something like that so openly. I approve. How could I not? It's great. We need to start thinking of the Elder Dragons more as people, after all, especially with what we learned about Kralkatorrik. It turned out that Kralky wasn't evil after all, rather he was just being tormented by someone or something in order to continue the cycle of destruction and creation. I can't help but wonder what's responsible for the torment, and it gives rise to questions like what if the humans aren't from another world, but rather were the most pious chosen by the Gods to bring forward into the new cycle?

I mean, what if the Six were somehow responsible for the cycle in some way? What if they rely on worship so much that they want the world to come crashing down whenever their chosen start losing faith? Then, when the new world is created, they send in their clean-up crew—The Forgotten—to sort things out to prepare the world for their humans, and the humans being so thankful will be incredibly pious once again and reliant on their Gods as their technological and societal progression will have been reset. Of course, it looks like this time The Forgotten betrayed the Six by working against the cycle of destruction and creation. Madcap theories abounds. I love this.

Anyway, I'm just glad that Jormag is non-binary. They're such an interesting dragon and I have some pretty big questsions as to whether they're suffering from the torment or not, or perhaps whether they are but they're doing an incredible job of resisting it due to what their power is. I mean, their power is persuasion after all. Plus, dragons with a more feminine edge seem to have a stronger capacity to resist the torment for whatever reason. Glint, Aurene, et al. Though that could be coincidental, of course. I'm hoping at the end of the day that the behaviour of Jormag comes down to three factors: 1.) they are being tormented but they're resisting it, 2.) they're out of touch and doesn't really know how to deal with mortals, but they want to heal them and end their suffering and their main and most effective means for that is mind control, and 3.) they might not be fully in control of their power and they might be unable to stop being so persuasive. Perhaps the torment makes it more difficult for Jormag to focus and control their powers.

I can only hope that Jormag turns out to not be as evil as they appear. What would be especially brilliant is if they lead into Cantha by having Jormag be a bit of a crazy parent; they love their thralls, they want to protect their thralls at all costs, so they're against anyone who would harm their thralls. At one point, my understanding is that they wanted to stop the cycle of destruction and creation by freezing the world and its oceans. Their goals have shifted since then due to the rise of Aurene, of course, as Aurene introduces some interesting new possibilities. One of hte things that could be up with Jormag that the torment is playing on is fear of the Deep Sea Dragon. In the Icebrood trailer, the first time Jormag gets growly and upset is specifically when focusing on an underwater scene and talking about suffering. Jormag is terrified of the suffering that the Deep Sea Dragon could bring to their babies.

Thus, Jormag might be looking to ally with Aurene against the Deep Sea Dragon as they expect an imminent invasion of Canthan forces that could wipe out the thralls they're so set on protecting from death and suffering. Death and suffering seem to be buttons for Jormag, in that Jormag is all about preservation and the end of pain. If others are in pain it seems to drive Jormag a bit potty, perhaps it's an empathy thing that relates to their ability to connect with minds. So the potential for death and suffering that a Canthan invasion lead by the Deep Sea Dragon could cause is absolutely terrifying to them.

Anyway, I love where this is going. I appreciate what ArenaNet is doing here, it's the most fun content I've played thus far.

<1

Comments

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2020

    From what little we know. the torment didn't make Kralk evil, it enhanced their rage, malice and destructive purpose. It was brought on by the consumption of too many conflicting magics which it was unable to balance internally.

    Also, as far as we are aware, all Dragons are genderless and have been since the start. Jormag is the only they have been explicit about it.

    I don't agree that humanising the Dragons was a positive move for the game either. I'm not going to elaborate too much more since I don't want to repeat ad infinum from other threads (necroing is not taboo btw where the topic is relevant), but to me it showed the writers didn't really have a grasp on what they wanted to do with the Dragons and instead fell back on giving them mortal motivations as the easy option. I don't think it has worked at all well either with the terrible Kralk ending being a prime example of how far off the path I think they have travelled.

    A lot of people are playing up the underwater scene in the trailer as being tied to the DSD. I'm unconvinced yet any connection exists and that is mostly a scene tied in for other reasons. I also don't see why Jormag would care what the DSD is doing thousands upon thousands of miles away in a different continent when it hasn't cared about what Dragons closer to home were doing. We saw Mordemoth had great reach as it's vines headed right across into Ascalon. We didn't even get a glimmer of interest from Jormag and that was almost on the doorstep of Jormag's outer borders. I can't see why Jormag would feel any need to care about what happens in Cantha

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:
    The other threads are a little outdated and I know necro-ing is taboo so I just wanted to create a thread to talk about this.

    It isn't tabbo in the lore forums, it just needs to be worthwhile.

    Then it turns out that Jormag is non-binary which just made my day. I had no idea that ArenaNet was progressive enough to do something like that so openly. I approve. How could I not? It's great.

    ANet is so progressive that they declared this for all Elder Dragons eleven years ago in the form of being genderless ("0" is still technically "not-2").

    It's funny to me how people are only just now figuring this all out, despite the Elder Dragons almost exclusively being called "it". Only Jormag and Kralkatorrik were exceptions, and in Jormag's case, it was because of sexists calling Jormag a him.

    We need to start thinking of the Elder Dragons more as people, after all, especially with what we learned about Kralkatorrik. It turned out that Kralky wasn't evil after all, rather he was just being tormented by someone or something in order to continue the cycle of destruction and creation. I can't help but wonder what's responsible for the torment, and it gives rise to questions like what if the humans aren't from another world, but rather were the most pious chosen by the Gods to bring forward into the new cycle?

    This is incorrect on both accounts.

    We should be thinking of the Elder Dragons as beyond people, because that's what they are. They are not humanoids, they're not standard mortals. They're beyond the standard scope of living beings.

    As for Kralkatorrik, he was evil, even before torment. As mentioned by Randulf above. The torment was caused by Kralkatorrik's drive to consume magic. We don't quite have a clear indication of Kralkatorrik's original goals, but given what we were told, his original goal was to prevent peace with mortals. What we mainly lack is the why he didn't want peace with mortals. But in Episode 5 we learned that Kralkatorrik had a vision he hated, where there was a world of peace between mortals an dragons and he wasn't around, Glint followed this by saying he was afraid of his vision and his death; but in Episode 6, Kralkatorrik's "better" (because it wasn't a "good side") clarified that Elder Dragons do not fear anything, even death.

    Which means Kralkatorrik fought against his vision - that was his goal, to prevent his vision from coming true - but the why was misunderstood ('fear of death') and never elaborated. We never learned why Kralkatorrik, who was not good, did not want a world of peace without him and instead fought to prevent both peace and his death. We can infer by the existence of torment that he fought against his vision by consuming magic to gain power, which led him to become tormented and thus changing his goal to "consume and destroy everything" as driven by his torment.

    But TL;DR, Kralkatorrik was always "the bad guy", especially to mortals; the torment just changed him and made him even more destructive.

    My theory is based off of the fact he loved his family despite not wanting peace with mortals - which makes me think of Kralkatorrik as a racist. That he hated mortals so greatly that he just simply refused the notion of peace with them, no matter what. And his refusal for peace was misunderstood as fear of death by Glint.

    I mean, what if the Six were somehow responsible for the cycle in some way? What if they rely on worship so much that they want the world to come crashing down whenever their chosen start losing faith? Then, when the new world is created, they send in their clean-up crew—The Forgotten—to sort things out to prepare the world for their humans, and the humans being so thankful will be incredibly pious once again and reliant on their Gods as their technological and societal progression will have been reset. Of course, it looks like this time The Forgotten betrayed the Six by working against the cycle of destruction and creation. Madcap theories abounds. I love this.

    This wouldn't make sense, given that the Six have been actively distancing themselves from mortals ever since the Exodus. They've been actively, slowly, ignoring their "chosen" regardless of faith, and they most certainly did not unleash the Elder Dragons if that's your implication.

    They're such an interesting dragon and I have some pretty big questsions as to whether they're suffering from the torment or not, or perhaps whether they are but they're doing an incredible job of resisting it due to what their power is. I mean, their power is persuasion after all.

    It was implied by ANet during the Guild Chat following War Eternal that every Elder Dragon suffers from torment, but they suffer from it in their own unique way. The magical torment won't cause every Elder Dragon to seek "consume and destroy everything to end the pain" like it did with Kralkatorrik.

    We can get glimpses of every Elder Dragon's (but the DSD's) modern goals. And this could hint at their pre-Torment goals too. To dumb it to the TL;DR:

    • Zhaitan was wanting to create and rule a kingdom of eternal "life" where people do not lose loved ones.
    • Jormag is shown wanting to give power and protection to those who seek it. While killing the rest.
    • Mordremoth is basically shown believing itself to be the world proper and source of life. Or at least seeking to become such.
    • Kralkatorrik was wanting to consume and destroy all things [in the hopes of ending its pain].
    • Primordus is not very interactive, but the only interaction we have is it seeking to kill everything - especially young dragons, which I find particularly curious.

    Unfortunately, we can't really get a clear indication of their original goals given how drastically different Kralkatorrik's goal seems to have changed. From "prevent peace between mortals and dragons" to "consume/corrupt and destroy everything". Though I suppose it's not too great of a change between "bring war" and "bring destruction".

    Plus, dragons with a more feminine edge seem to have a stronger capacity to resist the torment for whatever reason. Glint, Aurene, et al. Though that could be coincidental, of course.

    Glint was never an Elder Dragon thus didn't face torment. Aurene is unique and one of a kind, for still unexplained reasons.

    And Jormag isn't feminine, despite the female voice actress.

    One of hte things that could be up with Jormag that the torment is playing on is fear of the Deep Sea Dragon. In the Icebrood trailer, the first time Jormag gets growly and upset is specifically when focusing on an underwater scene and talking about suffering. Jormag is terrified of the suffering that the Deep Sea Dragon could bring to their babies.

    I do not see this, personally. Jormag's "weakness" is Primordus / primordial fire, after all. And it's been established that Jormag simply doesn't care about the deaths of its icebrood. This is shown, for example, in the utter lack of female icebrood norn - the reason for this is that the Sons of Svanir hunt down the female norn who get corrupted (the Sons hunt down icebrood in general to prove their strength to Jormag, but they particularly focus on female norn icebrood because "they're not worthy of Jormag's gifts").

    I also do not associate the underwater scene with the Deep Sea Dragon. Instead, the seven scenes of the trailer seems to associate with the five maps we'll be getting in Icebrood Saga:

    • First scene is a dead charr holding her cub while the Blood Keep burns - Grothmar Valley, prologue.
    • Second scene is a bunch of kodan overlooking their dead - Bjora Marches, ep1-2.
    • Third scene is of centaurs pushing human slaves - map in Woodland Cascades, ep3-4.
      Those three maps/locations are confirmed, and the scenes match. The rest is speculative:

    • Fourth scene is the water bit - episodes 5-6, perhaps in Janthir Bay?

    • Fifth scene is marching in the Shiverpeaks - episodes 7-8, perhaps outside Eye of the North, atop of the Battledepths of GW1 (which is supposed to be roughly where Jormag is resting based on S3E3).
    • Final scene is Jormag marching on Hoelbrak - Icebrood Saga finale, not in a world map.

    Thus, Jormag might be looking to ally with Aurene against the Deep Sea Dragon as they expect an imminent invasion of Canthan forces that could wipe out the thralls they're so set on protecting from death and suffering.

    How does the DSD relate to Cantha at all?

    First off, there's the fact that nothing actually ties the DSD to Cantha. By all indication of the forces it has pushed out, it is west of Tyria, not south.

    Secondly, and far more important, the DSD does not corrupt living creatures, but instead is akin to Primordus. Primordus corrupts lava nad rock into destroyers; the DSD corrupts water. So even if the DSD has assaulted Cantha, it wouldn't have corrupted Canthan forces.

    At best, for connecting the two, the DSD would have suddenly moved towards Cantha - instead of the implied path towards Tyria in core lore - and Cantha is requesting aide from Tyria. This doesn't quite work in connecting to Season5 though.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • thepenmonster.3621thepenmonster.3621 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Which means Kralkatorrik fought against his vision - that was his goal, to prevent his vision from coming true - but the why was misunderstood ('fear of death') and never elaborated. We never learned why Kralkatorrik, who was not good, did not want a world of peace without him and instead fought to prevent both peace and his death.

    The game doesn't touch on it very much since there are only a handful of characters we interact with who can see the flow of time, but what we see suggests there is no free will on Tyria. Working under the assumption that this a pre-determistic reality then Kralk did everything they did because they were predestined to do it. Aurene seems to be suggesting this as well since she effectively told the Commander that Bangar has to do what Bangar is going to do.

    The Commander will end you.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    As for Kralkatorrik, he was evil, even before torment. As mentioned by Randulf above. The torment was caused by Kralkatorrik's drive to consume magic. We don't quite have a clear indication of Kralkatorrik's original goals, but given what we were told, his original goal was to prevent peace with mortals. What we mainly lack is the why he didn't want peace with mortals. But in Episode 5 we learned that Kralkatorrik had a vision he hated, where there was a world of peace between mortals an dragons and he wasn't around, Glint followed this by saying he was afraid of his vision and his death; but in Episode 6, Kralkatorrik's "better" (because it wasn't a "good side") clarified that Elder Dragons do not fear anything, even death.

    Which means Kralkatorrik fought against his vision - that was his goal, to prevent his vision from coming true - but the why was misunderstood ('fear of death') and never elaborated. We never learned why Kralkatorrik, who was not good, did not want a world of peace without him and instead fought to prevent both peace and his death. We can infer by the existence of torment that he fought against his vision by consuming magic to gain power, which led him to become tormented and thus changing his goal to "consume and destroy everything" as driven by his torment.

    But TL;DR, Kralkatorrik was always "the bad guy", especially to mortals; the torment just changed him and made him even more destructive.

    My theory is based off of the fact he loved his family despite not wanting peace with mortals - which makes me think of Kralkatorrik as a racist. That he hated mortals so greatly that he just simply refused the notion of peace with them, no matter what. And his refusal for peace was misunderstood as fear of death by Glint.

    Gotta ask, do you have a source for all this?

    From what I recall, the statement that Kralkatorrik was not necessarily "good" before the Torment developed doesn't really say much regarding his motivations where it came to Kralkatorrik's vision. The statement that all Elder Dragons suffered from their equivalent of the Torment - including Zhaitan, the first to be killed - suggests that it was certainly a factor well before the dragons started getting killed and absorbing each other's magics. That certainly seems to have made things worse, but the description of the inside of Kralkatorrik's mind in Edge of Destiny certainly seems, in light of what we saw in the instance, as an indication that the Torment was already pretty much in charge during the Dragonrise. And if it was in charge when Kralkatorrik had just woken up, it's likely that it was in charge the last time the Elder Dragons were active as well.

    Furthermore, the impression I had was that Kralkatorrik's sane side genuinely approved of what Aurene was going to do, rather than it being purely a matter of being family.

    I think there are plenty of interpretations of the implication that Kralkatorrik was still evil pre-Torment which are compatible with sane Kralkatorrik nevertheless approving of what he saw in the vision. Consider that the current storyline is essentially around the mystery of whether, despite having participated in the cycle time and time again, Jormag genuinely seeks an end to it rather than simply making a ploy to avoid being destroyed by a team that has already killed three Elder Dragons. It's possible that what was actually going on is that they all enthusiastically and greedily took part in the first cycle or few, and by the time their saner sides started to realise this was actually a bad thing, their various insanities had already set in. So Sane Kralkatorrik might have approved of the vision from the start, but with Torment fully in control, he was limited in what he could actually do to enact it... but it's possible that it was Sane Kralkatorrik that actually put Glaust on her initial steps towards becoming Glint.

    Could be interesting is the discrepancies in Jormag's behaviour turn out to be because Jormag itself is hearing a voice that is not its own.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @thepenmonster.3621 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Which means Kralkatorrik fought against his vision - that was his goal, to prevent his vision from coming true - but the why was misunderstood ('fear of death') and never elaborated. We never learned why Kralkatorrik, who was not good, did not want a world of peace without him and instead fought to prevent both peace and his death.

    The game doesn't touch on it very much since there are only a handful of characters we interact with who can see the flow of time, but what we see suggests there is no free will on Tyria. Working under the assumption that this a pre-determistic reality then Kralk did everything they did because they were predestined to do it. Aurene seems to be suggesting this as well since she effectively told the Commander that Bangar has to do what Bangar is going to do.

    Not sure about that. My interpretation of what Aurene said was more along the lines that if Bangar himself was removed, someone else would play the same part. Less "everything is predestined" and more psychohistory.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @thepenmonster.3621 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Which means Kralkatorrik fought against his vision - that was his goal, to prevent his vision from coming true - but the why was misunderstood ('fear of death') and never elaborated. We never learned why Kralkatorrik, who was not good, did not want a world of peace without him and instead fought to prevent both peace and his death.

    The game doesn't touch on it very much since there are only a handful of characters we interact with who can see the flow of time, but what we see suggests there is no free will on Tyria. Working under the assumption that this a pre-determistic reality then Kralk did everything they did because they were predestined to do it. Aurene seems to be suggesting this as well since she effectively told the Commander that Bangar has to do what Bangar is going to do.

    I would disagree. I mean, our very first interactions with ":seeing the future" is entirely that it isn't set in stone and isn't certain - both with the asura Infinity Ball storyline, and A Light in the Darkness instance where the Pale Tree shows us a future which doesn't occur and outright tells us:

    Avatar of the Tree: But be warned—the future can change in the blink of an eye...

    The entire thing about the Crystal Dragons' visions is that they're all self-fulfilling prophecies because of how they go about trying to prevent (or ensure in Glint's case) them.

    In the case of Bangar, it seems a bit closer to what Drax said - it's not that Bangar has to do what Bangar is doing, but rather that even if we stop Bangar now, someone, sooner or later, will try doing the exact same thing, and that to stop such from happening, we cannot have Aurene just swoop in and solve our problem - we need to wait and let Bangar make another move, to prevent a repetition of events.

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    As for Kralkatorrik, he was evil, even before torment. As mentioned by Randulf above. The torment was caused by Kralkatorrik's drive to consume magic. We don't quite have a clear indication of Kralkatorrik's original goals, but given what we were told, his original goal was to prevent peace with mortals. What we mainly lack is the why he didn't want peace with mortals. But in Episode 5 we learned that Kralkatorrik had a vision he hated, where there was a world of peace between mortals an dragons and he wasn't around, Glint followed this by saying he was afraid of his vision and his death; but in Episode 6, Kralkatorrik's "better" (because it wasn't a "good side") clarified that Elder Dragons do not fear anything, even death.

    Which means Kralkatorrik fought against his vision - that was his goal, to prevent his vision from coming true - but the why was misunderstood ('fear of death') and never elaborated. We never learned why Kralkatorrik, who was not good, did not want a world of peace without him and instead fought to prevent both peace and his death. We can infer by the existence of torment that he fought against his vision by consuming magic to gain power, which led him to become tormented and thus changing his goal to "consume and destroy everything" as driven by his torment.

    But TL;DR, Kralkatorrik was always "the bad guy", especially to mortals; the torment just changed him and made him even more destructive.

    My theory is based off of the fact he loved his family despite not wanting peace with mortals - which makes me think of Kralkatorrik as a racist. That he hated mortals so greatly that he just simply refused the notion of peace with them, no matter what. And his refusal for peace was misunderstood as fear of death by Glint.

    Gotta ask, do you have a source for all this?

    From what I recall, the statement that Kralkatorrik was not necessarily "good" before the Torment developed doesn't really say much regarding his motivations where it came to Kralkatorrik's vision. The statement that all Elder Dragons suffered from their equivalent of the Torment - including Zhaitan, the first to be killed - suggests that it was certainly a factor well before the dragons started getting killed and absorbing each other's magics. That certainly seems to have made things worse, but the description of the inside of Kralkatorrik's mind in Edge of Destiny certainly seems, in light of what we saw in the instance, as an indication that the Torment was already pretty much in charge during the Dragonrise. And if it was in charge when Kralkatorrik had just woken up, it's likely that it was in charge the last time the Elder Dragons were active as well.

    Furthermore, the impression I had was that Kralkatorrik's sane side genuinely approved of what Aurene was going to do, rather than it being purely a matter of being family.

    I think there are plenty of interpretations of the implication that Kralkatorrik was still evil pre-Torment which are compatible with sane Kralkatorrik nevertheless approving of what he saw in the vision. Consider that the current storyline is essentially around the mystery of whether, despite having participated in the cycle time and time again, Jormag genuinely seeks an end to it rather than simply making a ploy to avoid being destroyed by a team that has already killed three Elder Dragons. It's possible that what was actually going on is that they all enthusiastically and greedily took part in the first cycle or few, and by the time their saner sides started to realise this was actually a bad thing, their various insanities had already set in. So Sane Kralkatorrik might have approved of the vision from the start, but with Torment fully in control, he was limited in what he could actually do to enact it... but it's possible that it was Sane Kralkatorrik that actually put Glaust on her initial steps towards becoming Glint.

    Could be interesting is the discrepancies in Jormag's behaviour turn out to be because Jormag itself is hearing a voice that is not its own.

    Not sure what sources you're asking for since you seem to know them / I already list them.

    The torment is confirmed from Guild Chat to be from before the current dragonrise, but that doesn't mean Kralkatorrik was afflicted by torment when he had the vision and confided in Glint:

    Glint: He foresaw the possibility of a world at peace. A world without strife between dragons and mortals. A world without him.
    Glint: It terrified him. He demanded I help prevent it from coming to pass.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scion_&_Champion#In_Glint.27s_Lair

    It's unclear if Glint knew about the magical torment, but this description does not match the Kralkatorrik afflicted by torment that we know where his only attention was to consume and corrupt all it could, and destroy the rest. Which implies it's something that happened eons ago, before Glint was corrupted and subsequently purified by the Forgotten, one of the "fragments" that Glints remembers from before that time.

    The goal of Kralkatorrik's Torment is "consume and destroy everything", as shown in both S4E6 and EoD novel, but the goal of pre-Torment Kralkatorrik, as presented by Glint in S4E5, was preventing his vision of peace between dragons and mortals without him from coming to pass.

    Furthermore, the impression I had was that Kralkatorrik's sane side genuinely approved of what Aurene was going to do, rather than it being purely a matter of being family.

    Maybe by this point in time, eons after he originally had that vision. But back then? Hard to say. Thing is, the vision is the sole motivation we're ever given for Kralkatorrik being evil besides Torment, and we were told he was "not good" before Torment.

    But my impression was that Kralkatorrik never actually gave affirmation or denial of Aurene's goals and actions. His sane side was just tired of living in pain, and loved his family too much to harm them and regretting his Torment forcing him to kill Glint.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:
    The other threads are a little outdated and I know necro-ing is taboo so I just wanted to create a thread to talk about this.

    I'm always a little behind the curve playing content, I only just came off of LWS4 a little while ago. I've been doing plenty of reading about The Icebrood Saga but now I'm a good ways into it and it's some of my favourite content, hands down. The Bound by Blood zone was incredible, the Metal Legion... quelle excellence! I loved it. What a bloody madhouse it was. I've always wanted to drive the charriots too and I finally got my chance. This lead into some very, very cleverly written intrigue! Which is lovely as my partner and I live for intrigue. We quickly figured out that (caveat emptor, of course) Braham's guild probably weren't as evil as the vagueness were suggesting, that they might've been the ones to resist the Sons of Svanir rather than slaughtering all of the Vigil soldiers. Intrigue is fun!

    Then it turns out that Jormag is non-binary which just made my day. I had no idea that ArenaNet was progressive enough to do something like that so openly. I approve. How could I not? It's great. We need to start thinking of the Elder Dragons more as people, after all, especially with what we learned about Kralkatorrik. It turned out that Kralky wasn't evil after all, rather he was just being tormented by someone or something in order to continue the cycle of destruction and creation. I can't help but wonder what's responsible for the torment, and it gives rise to questions like what if the humans aren't from another world, but rather were the most pious chosen by the Gods to bring forward into the new cycle?

    I mean, what if the Six were somehow responsible for the cycle in some way? What if they rely on worship so much that they want the world to come crashing down whenever their chosen start losing faith? Then, when the new world is created, they send in their clean-up crew—The Forgotten—to sort things out to prepare the world for their humans, and the humans being so thankful will be incredibly pious once again and reliant on their Gods as their technological and societal progression will have been reset. Of course, it looks like this time The Forgotten betrayed the Six by working against the cycle of destruction and creation. Madcap theories abounds. I love this.

    Anyway, I'm just glad that Jormag is non-binary. They're such an interesting dragon and I have some pretty big questsions as to whether they're suffering from the torment or not, or perhaps whether they are but they're doing an incredible job of resisting it due to what their power is. I mean, their power is persuasion after all. Plus, dragons with a more feminine edge seem to have a stronger capacity to resist the torment for whatever reason. Glint, Aurene, et al. Though that could be coincidental, of course. I'm hoping at the end of the day that the behaviour of Jormag comes down to three factors: 1.) they are being tormented but they're resisting it, 2.) they're out of touch and doesn't really know how to deal with mortals, but they want to heal them and end their suffering and their main and most effective means for that is mind control, and 3.) they might not be fully in control of their power and they might be unable to stop being so persuasive. Perhaps the torment makes it more difficult for Jormag to focus and control their powers.

    I can only hope that Jormag turns out to not be as evil as they appear. What would be especially brilliant is if they lead into Cantha by having Jormag be a bit of a crazy parent; they love their thralls, they want to protect their thralls at all costs, so they're against anyone who would harm their thralls. At one point, my understanding is that they wanted to stop the cycle of destruction and creation by freezing the world and its oceans. Their goals have shifted since then due to the rise of Aurene, of course, as Aurene introduces some interesting new possibilities. One of hte things that could be up with Jormag that the torment is playing on is fear of the Deep Sea Dragon. In the Icebrood trailer, the first time Jormag gets growly and upset is specifically when focusing on an underwater scene and talking about suffering. Jormag is terrified of the suffering that the Deep Sea Dragon could bring to their babies.

    Thus, Jormag might be looking to ally with Aurene against the Deep Sea Dragon as they expect an imminent invasion of Canthan forces that could wipe out the thralls they're so set on protecting from death and suffering. Death and suffering seem to be buttons for Jormag, in that Jormag is all about preservation and the end of pain. If others are in pain it seems to drive Jormag a bit potty, perhaps it's an empathy thing that relates to their ability to connect with minds. So the potential for death and suffering that a Canthan invasion lead by the Deep Sea Dragon could cause is absolutely terrifying to them.

    Anyway, I love where this is going. I appreciate what ArenaNet is doing here, it's the most fun content I've played thus far.

    Abbadon created the bloodstones to bring stability and accesibility to magic, but also to prevent the cycle and keep the dragons sleeping. In sirens reef we learn that he may also of had a hand at trying to "bend" the dragons to his will to try and subjugate them. There is a high possibility that between the bloodstones, the mind tinkering and the battles of the six that they did effect the cycle in a big way. I like to believe Abbadon tried to mess with kralks mind and bend him, and thus ended up creating his torment and making him into the monster we see today.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    In sirens reef we learn that he may also of had a hand at trying to "bend" the dragons to his will to try and subjugate them.

    I never got round to this fractal. Can you elaborate any further on what is in the fractal to tie in with this?

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2020

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    In sirens reef we learn that he may also of had a hand at trying to "bend" the dragons to his will to try and subjugate them.

    I never got round to this fractal. Can you elaborate any further on what is in the fractal to tie in with this?

    Its not sirens reef, sirens landing my bad (had to look on the map when you said fractal?) That zone thats kinda all about abbadon.. There is also a small book in the priory on one of the upper level shelves that talks about it a bit. Its all speculation on NPC's handling information and Im not sure how relevant it is, let me see if I can get a hold of some information for you.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/WoodenPotatoes/comments/31m598/abaddon_and_the_elder_dragons_theory/

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tome_of_the_Five_True_Gods

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Abaddon

    Note there is no definitive proof but these are places where you can see people piecing it together, and the two beneath are the Wiki's description of pieces that kind of point to the gods having tried to manipulate the dragons to some effect. Id definantly give it a read and im not saying its right or wrong, but it something to be mindful of and could tie into grander plots down the line. I don't think the six or gone for good, I think they will have a huge role to play whether it is on the front-lines as characters or merely being the catalysts and omen's of a darker future.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    In sirens reef we learn that he may also of had a hand at trying to "bend" the dragons to his will to try and subjugate them.

    I never got round to this fractal. Can you elaborate any further on what is in the fractal to tie in with this?

    Its not sirens reef, sirens landing my bad (had to look on the map when you said fractal?) That zone thats kinda all about abbadon.. There is also a small book in the priory on one of the upper level shelves that talks about it a bit. Its all speculation on NPC's handling information and Im not sure how relevant it is, let me see if I can get a hold of some information for you.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/WoodenPotatoes/comments/31m598/abaddon_and_the_elder_dragons_theory/

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tome_of_the_Five_True_Gods

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Abaddon

    Note there is no definitive proof but these are places where you can see people piecing it together, and the two beneath are the Wiki's description of pieces that kind of point to the gods having tried to manipulate the dragons to some effect. Id definantly give it a read and im not saying its right or wrong, but it something to be mindful of and could tie into grander plots down the line. I don't think the six or gone for good, I think they will have a huge role to play whether it is on the front-lines as characters or merely being the catalysts and omen's of a darker future.

    Thanks, I shall have a peruse

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Maybe by this point in time, eons after he originally had that vision. But back then? Hard to say. Thing is, the vision is the sole motivation we're ever given for Kralkatorrik being evil besides Torment, and we were told he was "not good" before Torment.

    This assumption, I think, is where your logic chain falls down. There's the simplest motivation of all for Kralkatorrik to be "not good" before Torment: he, along with the other Elder Dragons, wanted power, and were willing to wreak massive destruction to get it. It's been a theme right back to the original Prophecies Manuscripts that the prospect of gaining magical power can lead to destructive conflict as people seek to seize it - the Guild Wars are blamed on the emergence of the bloodstones from the volcano they were dropped into, for instance - and the Elder Dragons are essentially the ultimate manifestation of this greed.

    There's no need to pin his "not good" status on rejecting the vision when greed for power and the willingness to destroy anything to get more is a theme common to all of the Elder Dragons. Particularly since Kralkatorrik has already shown that Glint was at least partially mistaken regarding Kralkatorrik's motives.

    Ultimately, though, we have nothing to say that Kralkatorrik's goal was to prevent peace between dragons and mortals. It's possible, but there's a much simpler explanation for his "not good" status which, IMO, is more consistent with Sane Kralkatorrik's behaviour in the instance. He thirsted for power, collected enough to drive him insane, and by the time he realised what he'd done to himself it was too late.

    Glaust was created in response to that vision, but if she was wrong about Kralk being terrified, maybe she's also wrong about what his intention in creating her was. Maybe his intent was to make the prophecy happen in a rare moment of lucidity before Torment took control once again.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Abbadon created the bloodstones to bring stability and accesibility to magic, but also to prevent the cycle and keep the dragons sleeping. In sirens reef we learn that he may also of had a hand at trying to "bend" the dragons to his will to try and subjugate them. There is a high possibility that between the bloodstones, the mind tinkering and the battles of the six that they did effect the cycle in a big way. I like to believe Abbadon tried to mess with kralks mind and bend him, and thus ended up creating his torment and making him into the monster we see today.

    Abaddon didn't create the Bloodstone - the Seers did. Abaddon spread magic from the Bloodstone, before the other gods recended some of that magic then split the Bloodstone into five pieces.

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Its not sirens reef, sirens landing my bad (had to look on the map when you said fractal?) That zone thats kinda all about abbadon.. There is also a small book in the priory on one of the upper level shelves that talks about it a bit. Its all speculation on NPC's handling information and Im not sure how relevant it is, let me see if I can get a hold of some information for you.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/WoodenPotatoes/comments/31m598/abaddon_and_the_elder_dragons_theory/

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tome_of_the_Five_True_Gods

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Abaddon

    Note there is no definitive proof but these are places where you can see people piecing it together, and the two beneath are the Wiki's description of pieces that kind of point to the gods having tried to manipulate the dragons to some effect. Id definantly give it a read and im not saying its right or wrong, but it something to be mindful of and could tie into grander plots down the line. I don't think the six or gone for good, I think they will have a huge role to play whether it is on the front-lines as characters or merely being the catalysts and omen's of a darker future.

    There's actually nothing that connects Abaddon to the Elder Dragons, besides Abaddon's death and momentary release of magic being what stirred them from hibernation. The "Five Gods" had knowledge of the Elder Dragons, and even tampered with Zhaitan's magic (and Zhaitan alone), but it's never clarified if Abaddon was ever included in any of this, and as far as all indication goes, the gods' knowledge was limited to the Forgotten's knowledge.

    The biggest direct connection we have for Abaddon and the Elder Dragons is the Cauldron of Cataclysm / Searing seemingly pulling from Kralkatorrik's magic. However, it's also stated that the shaman caste enchanted the Searing Cauldrons so if the theory of the Searing pulling from Kralk is true, then the shaman caste could have pulled from Kralkatorrik without Abaddon's instruction.

    It's actually rather funny that everyone tries to connect Abaddon specifically to somehow trying to manipulate the Elder Dragons, but he's actually the least connected by all direct lore.

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Maybe by this point in time, eons after he originally had that vision. But back then? Hard to say. Thing is, the vision is the sole motivation we're ever given for Kralkatorrik being evil besides Torment, and we were told he was "not good" before Torment.

    This assumption, I think, is where your logic chain falls down. There's the simplest motivation of all for Kralkatorrik to be "not good" before Torment: he, along with the other Elder Dragons, wanted power, and were willing to wreak massive destruction to get it. It's been a theme right back to the original Prophecies Manuscripts that the prospect of gaining magical power can lead to destructive conflict as people seek to seize it - the Guild Wars are blamed on the emergence of the bloodstones from the volcano they were dropped into, for instance - and the Elder Dragons are essentially the ultimate manifestation of this greed.

    There's no need to pin his "not good" status on rejecting the vision when greed for power and the willingness to destroy anything to get more is a theme common to all of the Elder Dragons. Particularly since Kralkatorrik has already shown that Glint was at least partially mistaken regarding Kralkatorrik's motives.

    Ultimately, though, we have nothing to say that Kralkatorrik's goal was to prevent peace between dragons and mortals. It's possible, but there's a much simpler explanation for his "not good" status which, IMO, is more consistent with Sane Kralkatorrik's behaviour in the instance. He thirsted for power, collected enough to drive him insane, and by the time he realised what he'd done to himself it was too late.

    The issue with that "simplest motivation" is that, simply put, there's no indication to support this. The closest to such is the fact that Kralkatorrik's Torment was formed by mixing types of magic, but "mixing magic" does not necessarily mean "trying to get more power". Besides that, "wanting power" is not in of itself a motivation. Everyone who wants power, wants power for a reason. Gaining power is either a means to an end, or an end motivated by another factor.

    On top of that, it isn't so much "trying to pin his 'not good' status on rejecting the vision" but rather that we know he rejected the vision in the first place. Him being 'not good' and him rejecting the vision are two separate things that occur simultaneously, rather than saying 'he wasn't good because he rejected the vision' or vice versa. And yes, we do not have anything to say Kralkatorrik's primary goal was to prevent his vision - however, at the same time, it is the only stated action he was doing, with zero indication of any alternative goal.

    Glaust was created in response to that vision, but if she was wrong about Kralk being terrified, maybe she's also wrong about what his intention in creating her was. Maybe his intent was to make the prophecy happen in a rare moment of lucidity before Torment took control once again.

    Nothing says that Glaust was created in response to that vision. Glint stated that Kralkatorrik "demanded help" in making the vision not come to pass. This, to me, implies that Glint was already in existence and was an individual with free will at the time, and her refusal resulted in corruption (or, if the demand came after Glint's betrayal - which is entirely plausible if unlikely - resulted in her death). Furthermore, if Glaust was created while Kralkatorrik was afflicted by Torment, then she would have been created corrupted (which would go against Warden Ilyra's wording in Arah that free will was "returned" to her) in which Glint would not have had a will of her own to see "a gift to the world" because her will would have automatically be his will - he would not need to demand anything from Glint/Glaust.

    Glint: He foresaw the possibility of a world at peace. A world without strife between dragons and mortals. A world without him.
    Glint: It terrified him. He demanded I help prevent it from coming to pass.
    Glint: But where he saw doom, I saw a gift to the world.
    Glint: I believe in this future—this fragile, powerful hope. But what my daughter must do will seem impossible to her.

    The wording here is very telling, because it tells us that Glint was not corrupted when Kralkatorrik "demanded help".

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The issue with that "simplest motivation" is that, simply put, there's no indication to support this.

    Except there's plenty of indication.

    The indication is that, simply put, consuming magic is the common motivation of all the Elder Dragons. They might all have secondary motivations, such as Zhaitan's kingdom of undeath where nothing truly dies, but ultimately, 'collect more magic until there's nothing left to collect' is what Elder Dragons do. I think that's a pretty strong indication that it's possible that what made Kralkatorrik "not good" pre-Torment is that there is some point at which Kralkatorrik willingly, and in full command of his faculties, chose to start consuming power at the expense of the world in general and thus played his part in establishing the cycle of destruction. We know, after all, that the cycle was already well underway by the time Kralkatorrik had the vision.

    And I think that's a motivation that makes more sense than Sane Kralkatorrik hating the vision, despite correcting Aurene about not actually being afraid of it, and appearing to be entirely approving of what Aurene is about to become.

    I've gone through the instance with every profession, and at no point do I get an "actually I hate this but I'll let it happen because Aurene is my granddaughter" vibe from Sane Kralkatorrik. Sane Kralkatorrik's overall demeanor is "this is something that needs to happen".

    And from a narrative perspective, the revelation that there's one Elder Dragon who wants to end the cycle, even if they have to die for that to happen, serves as the wedge that opens up the possibility that Jormag too is serious about wanting to end the cycle.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The issue with that "simplest motivation" is that, simply put, there's no indication to support this.

    Except there's plenty of indication.

    This seems like a difference of opinion. Mind you, you may both be saying the same thing in different ways.

    The indication is that, simply put, consuming magic is the common motivation of all the Elder Dragons. They might all have secondary motivations, such as Zhaitan's kingdom of undeath where nothing truly dies, but ultimately, 'collect more magic until there's nothing left to collect' is what Elder Dragons do. I think that's a pretty strong indication that it's possible that what made Kralkatorrik "not good" pre-Torment is that there is some point at which Kralkatorrik willingly, and in full command of his faculties, chose to start consuming power at the expense of the world in general and thus played his part in establishing the cycle of destruction. We know, after all, that the cycle was already well underway by the time Kralkatorrik had the vision.

    And I think that's a motivation that makes more sense than Sane Kralkatorrik hating the vision, despite correcting Aurene about not actually being afraid of it, and appearing to be entirely approving of what Aurene is about to become.

    I guess we need to know if Kralkatorrik had torment prior to absorbing aspects of Zaithan's, Mordremoth's, and Balthazar's magic. If he did, his torment may be the inner conflict that Snaff perceived when he delved into Kralk's mind. The outer portion of Kralk's self wasn't part of him with which you would reason; but his inner self, Kralk's Eye, as it were, was almost serene. Then Snaff went and blew his chances of helping Kralk by thinking about how he gained for himself, saving his pride by passing up the chance of receiving an ignomious award from his peers.

    My thoughts on this align closer to Konig's. I'm not dismissing the idea that the lust for power is at the heart of the Elder Dragon Cycle problem. I just think that the nature of torment and the lust for power are two sides of the same coin. Paradigms developed by different observers as they behold the same elephant.

    I've gone through the instance with every profession, and at no point do I get an "actually I hate this but I'll let it happen because Aurene is my granddaughter" vibe from Sane Kralkatorrik. Sane Kralkatorrik's overall demeanor is "this is something that needs to happen".

    It almost seems as though we think that Kralkatorrik's torment doesn't reflect him at all; as though the side of him that we favor by "defeating" his torment, is the final authority on what happens next. But let's not forget that Zaithan and Mordremoth were symbolically present in the fight and they seem to have sided with Kralk's darkest self.

    What I find peculiar is the fact that Aurene doesn't seem to be affected by torment at all, in spite of the fact that she, apparently, absorbed some of Mordremoth's essence before hatching. We need to try to explain that. Why should Kralk's portion of Mordremoth's magic be tormented and Aurene's portion of it's magic be "pure"?

    Mordremoth knew about Glint's egg and, as we know, made a play for it. How can we think that it did this to advance Aurene's supposed "ascension", when upon it's death it cries, "What have you done?". If killing Mordy was the key to hatching Aurene, wouldn't Mordy willingly sacrifice itself, especially when it has demonstrated sufficient presence of mind to try and effectively abduct Glint's egg?

    And from a narrative perspective, the revelation that there's one Elder Dragon who wants to end the cycle, even if they have to die for that to happen, serves as the wedge that opens up the possibility that Jormag too is serious about wanting to end the cycle.

    I think that the passing of Zai, Mordy, and Kralk, has revealed something about magic and the Cycle, of which Jormag was either previously unaware or deliberately ignored. I would hardly say, though, that Kralk wanted to die to end the cycle. That choice was taken away by whatever magic was at work in him.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2020

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    I guess we need to know if Kralkatorrik had torment prior to absorbing aspects of Zaithan's, Mordremoth's, and Balthazar's magic. If he did, his torment may be the inner conflict that Snaff perceived when he delved into Kralk's mind. I believe he had been suffering for Millennia indicating perhaps before or since the last Dragonrise.

    I believe the devs confirmed his torment is millennia old from the Guild Chat they did post episode 6. Absorbing the extra Dragon magic probably enahnced his pain and torment even further though, but it already existed

    What I find peculiar is the fact that Aurene doesn't seem to be affected by torment at all, in spite of the fact that she, apparently, absorbed some of Mordremoth's essence before hatching. We need to try to explain that. Why should Kralk's portion of Mordremoth's magic be tormented and Aurene's portion of it's magic be "pure"?

    IF memory serves - Aurene's unique upbringing and link to Tyria's races is involved with her ability to balance all the magics in harmony. Torment takes time to occur so it is too early to see if it affects her and there was apparently dev implication in the Guild Chat of another factor.

    Since the devs have stated they have no written backstory for the Dragons either, but hope to touch further on the above subjects, we will just have to wait and see.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2020

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The issue with that "simplest motivation" is that, simply put, there's no indication to support this.

    Except there's plenty of indication.

    The indication is that, simply put, consuming magic is the common motivation of all the Elder Dragons. They might all have secondary motivations, such as Zhaitan's kingdom of undeath where nothing truly dies, but ultimately, 'collect more magic until there's nothing left to collect' is what Elder Dragons do. I think that's a pretty strong indication that it's possible that what made Kralkatorrik "not good" pre-Torment is that there is some point at which Kralkatorrik willingly, and in full command of his faculties, chose to start consuming power at the expense of the world in general and thus played his part in establishing the cycle of destruction. We know, after all, that the cycle was already well underway by the time Kralkatorrik had the vision.

    The primary goal now, when afflicted by torment, is to consume all magic as greedily as possible. But as we learn with the Bloodstone-Crazed and those influenced by ley-line magic, those who get overexposed to magic begin craving magic.

    To me, this is a very strong indication that "just because it is their main actions now, doesn't mean it always was."

    As such, to me, this is in turn not an indication that pre-Torment Kralkatorrik (or any ED pre-Torment) was primarily after consuming all types of magic. If anything, consuming all types of magic while sane seems more like a means to an end rather than the end itself. Much like with Caudecus, for example - his goal wasn't to consume bloodstone shards and go batshit insane with a greed for more bloodstone magic; he was just consuming bloodstone shards in order to gain enough power to obtain his goal of winning the war after he got backed into a corner.

    I find it far more likely for all Elder Dragons to have gone after consuming too much magic either little by little, or as a means to an end for their goal - depending on whether they were "good" or "evil" before being afflicted with magical Torment. Does that mean it would be so for every Elder Dragon? Nah. Just some.

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    I guess we need to know if Kralkatorrik had torment prior to absorbing aspects of Zaithan's, Mordremoth's, and Balthazar's magic. If he did, his torment may be the inner conflict that Snaff perceived when he delved into Kralk's mind. The outer portion of Kralk's self wasn't part of him with which you would reason; but his inner self, Kralk's Eye, as it were, was almost serene. Then Snaff went and blew his chances of helping Kralk by thinking about how he gained for himself, saving his pride by passing up the chance of receiving an ignomious award from his peers.

    The magical conflict was confirmed by devs to be eons old - before this dragonrise, let alone before Zhaitan's death. Implied to be well before the previous dragonrise, even. This was addressed in the Guild Chat following War Eternal's release by Tom Abernathy.

    [EDIT: Raw captions of said Guild Chat here]

    What I find peculiar is the fact that Aurene doesn't seem to be affected by torment at all, in spite of the fact that she, apparently, absorbed some of Mordremoth's essence before hatching. We need to try to explain that. Why should Kralk's portion of Mordremoth's magic be tormented and Aurene's portion of it's magic be "pure"?

    It isn't that Mordremoth's magic is tormented or pure, but rather that the magic clash in Kralkatorrik, but don't in her. The reason is indeed unclear (closest we get to an explanation is Glint saying Aurene's bond with mortals lets her ease the burden of magic), but it isn't a case of pure-impure, but rather more like... tangled yarn versus untangled yarn, is how I see it.

    It should be noted that it was suggested by Tom Abernathy that while Aurene was immune to torment at the time, this may not be forever the case, implying that by becoming an Elder Dragon and absorbing more magic, torment may begin to steep in. This was - again - in the Guild Chat following War Eternal's release.

    Mordremoth knew about Glint's egg and, as we know, made a play for it. How can we think that it did this to advance Aurene's supposed "ascension", when upon it's death it cries, "What have you done?". If killing Mordy was the key to hatching Aurene, wouldn't Mordy willingly sacrifice itself, especially when it has demonstrated sufficient presence of mind to try and effectively abduct Glint's egg?

    There really isn't an indication that Mordremoth was interested in Aurene ascending though. Not sure where this is coming from?

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2020

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    I believe the devs confirmed his torment is millennia old from the Guild Chat they did post episode 6. Absorbing the extra Dragon magic probably enahnced his pain and torment even further though, but it already existed

    Thank you for clarifying that. I think this forms the substance of both Konig's and Draxx's opinions: Kralkatorrik had a pre-existing condition. You could call that condition torment, or you could call it evil (i.e. the decision to do something that mortal races consider morally reprehensible). But, to my mind, Draxx hits the nail on the head: the lust for power is the root of torment. This conclusion makes Glint's advice to Aurene a little easier to understand: "You will see, Scion, that absorbing magic comes naturally. But the power, its temptations...they exact a price."

    What I find peculiar is the fact that Aurene doesn't seem to be affected by torment at all, in spite of the fact that she, apparently, absorbed some of Mordremoth's essence before hatching. We need to try to explain that. Why should Kralk's portion of Mordremoth's magic be tormented and Aurene's portion of it's magic be "pure"?

    IF memory serves - Aurene's unique upbringing and link to Tyria's races is involved with her ability to balance all the magics in harmony. Torment takes time to occur so it is too early to see if it affects her and there was apparently dev implication in the Guild Chat of another factor.

    Glint's advice to Aurene reveals what both Professor Gorr and the Zephyrites have long known: Dragons eat magic. The process comes naturally to them. Hand-in-hand with their ability to metabolize magic, though, comes power and temptations. Glint's training indicates that she doesn't believe that Aurene is above the temptations associated with feeding on magic. Nor does her call to Aurene's "Champion" to help Aurene share the burden of her nature make for sufficiently convincing explanations about how Aurene is different. Bonding with mortals isn't a distinction between Aurene and other Elder Dragons. The latter create minions, who, presumably, share their masters' burdens. Hence, saying that Aurene is capable of indefinitely resisting the temptations of consuming magic is just too far-fetched to be believeable.

    Let's not forget that Aurene states that Jormag has ravaged Tyria "countless times". The cycle, as it is, is incredibly stable. What do you think the norm should be? The outcome that has repeated itself so often even Aurene can't put a sum to it, or this sudden shift, in which Aurene seems to be some kind of game-changing dragon? If you really want to know what's going to destroy Tyria, just think about Aurene and how she doesn't fit. Maybe the old way of doing things was better for Tyria than the new way?

    Now, someone may say: The difference between Aurene and the other Elder Dragons is that Aurene forms bonds of love with her minions, whereas the other Elders just force their minions into servitude. That seems like a fair observation. But let's get real here. There would've been a time when at least one of the other dragons formed bonds in like manner to Aurene. In fact, Jormag's persuasiveness reminds me a lot of Aurene's approach to managing the burden of being a dragon. But, as some of the promo material delivered to us as part of the Icebrood Saga demonstrates, "[mortals] will betray you". The Elders know that mortals can't be trusted. Aurene will turn, eventually.

    Where is all of this going? Well, as Canach once remarked, maybe the Elder Dragons are suffering from a condition that is biological in nature and requires them to evolve? They're dragons, and dragons are born to be exceptionally good at being evil. They may begin life as benign reptilians, too small to be anymore troublesome than a household pet, but sooner or later, the unique nature of a dragon will catch up to it and it won't be able to control itself.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    I believe the devs confirmed his torment is millennia old from the Guild Chat they did post episode 6. Absorbing the extra Dragon magic probably enahnced his pain and torment even further though, but it already existed

    Thank you for clarifying that. I think this forms the substance of both Konig's and Draxx's opinions: Kralkatorrik had a pre-existing condition. You could call that condition torment, or you could call it evil (i.e. the decision to do something that mortal races consider morally reprehensible). But, to my mind, Draxx hits the nail on the head: the lust for power is the root of torment. This conclusion makes Glint's advice to Aurene a little easier to understand: "You will see, Scion, that absorbing magic comes naturally. But the power, its temptations...they exact a price."

    What I find peculiar is the fact that Aurene doesn't seem to be affected by torment at all, in spite of the fact that she, apparently, absorbed some of Mordremoth's essence before hatching. We need to try to explain that. Why should Kralk's portion of Mordremoth's magic be tormented and Aurene's portion of it's magic be "pure"?

    IF memory serves - Aurene's unique upbringing and link to Tyria's races is involved with her ability to balance all the magics in harmony. Torment takes time to occur so it is too early to see if it affects her and there was apparently dev implication in the Guild Chat of another factor.

    Glint's advice to Aurene reveals what both Professor Gorr and the Zephyrites have long known: Dragons eat magic. The process comes naturally to them. Hand-in-hand with their ability to metabolize magic, though, comes power and temptations. Glint's training indicates that she doesn't believe that Aurene is above the temptations associated with feeding on magic. Nor does her call to Aurene's "Champion" to help Aurene share the burden of her nature make for sufficiently convincing explanations about how Aurene is different. Bonding with mortals isn't a distinction between Aurene and other Elder Dragons. The latter create minions, who, presumably, share their masters' burdens. Hence, saying that Aurene is capable of indefinitely resisting the temptations of consuming magic is just too far-fetched to be believeable.

    Let's not forget that Aurene states that Jormag has ravaged Tyria "countless times". The cycle, as it is, is incredibly stable. What do you think the norm should be? The outcome that has repeated itself so often even Aurene can't put a sum to it, or this sudden shift, in which Aurene seems to be some kind of game-changing dragon? If you really want to know what's going to destroy Tyria, just think about Aurene and how she doesn't fit. Maybe the old way of doing things was better for Tyria than the new way?

    Now, someone may say: The difference between Aurene and the other Elder Dragons is that Aurene forms bonds of love with her minions, whereas the other Elders just force their minions into servitude. That seems like a fair observation. But let's get real here. There would've been a time when at least one of the other dragons formed bonds in like manner to Aurene. In fact, Jormag's persuasiveness reminds me a lot of Aurene's approach to managing the burden of being a dragon. But, as some of the promo material delivered to us as part of the Icebrood Saga demonstrates, "[mortals] will betray you". The Elders know that mortals can't be trusted. Aurene will turn, eventually.

    Where is all of this going? Well, as Canach once remarked, maybe the Elder Dragons are suffering from a condition that is biological in nature and requires them to evolve? They're dragons, and dragons are born to be exceptionally good at being evil. They may begin life as benign reptilians, too small to be anymore troublesome than a household pet, but sooner or later, the unique nature of a dragon will catch up to it and it won't be able to control itself.

    Perhaps our studies of the skyscales and gorricks research into the topic may yield results, remember they are now a new invasive species on tyria. Who function like miniature dragons and eat magic; They also given that there was a bit of lore stubbed into their skins as "They begin to develop differently" based on the magic they consume. So this might mean that while they aren't elder dragons perhaps they share some similar traits, and these traits may very well be the key to solving the dragons suffering and basically curing them. Paired with the "Freeing ritual" we found in orr durring vanilla, maybe we can merge these two practices together and come to a solution to end their torment while also freeing their minds so that they can become benevolent again/for the first time.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    Gods and Elders of a sphere of magic are narrative devices used to portray compulsive and pathological personalities where compulsively applying or thinking about the sphere of magic is the pathology. Tyrian magiphysics may make this narrative device explicit. The human gods and Elder dragons may not be able to think for themselves or have complete free will. The magic sphere may carve out a portion of the mind to inhabit. Hosting one sphere at a low power level may not pose a significant risk to the self as there would be enough mind remaining to run a self. However, increasing the power level of a sphere or increasing the range of spheres would decrease the space available to run a self. Hosting multiple spheres could require space to buffer them or spheres could repel each other taking up more space and creating dissonance. I guess I see "Torment" as describing the voice or "mind sound" of a sphere of magic within an Elder dragon. If magic reaches too high a level or too many magics are brought together in a mind, then Torment increases. The human gods may suffer Torment as well but have ways to manage it. Perhaps being part of a pantheon is key. They work together, talk to each other, bolster each others minds.

    Jormag may only be able to apply a small portion of its mind to free will. They may be trapped in a way of thinking dominated by their spheres of magic and multi-sphere dissonance. They may even be trying to run a game on themselves, trying to trick themselves into ending the cycle. Is the small sliver of Jormag's true self trying to trick the rest of its mind into dying?

    Aurene's unique physiology can be explained as long as we accept that her mind could effect her physical transformation during her ascension to Elder dragon. In Tyria, there is an obvious symmetry between mind and matter and a mind less willing to cause harm could encourage a less dangerous physiology to emerge. Aurene's physiology may give her an advantage but I don't see how it can completely protect her. Well, the studio could just say that it does but an Aurene able to defy what would be a significant aspect of the Eternal Alchemy would be hard to believe. Hopefully we see an Aurene terrified of her future self and the danger she could pose. Hopefully we are on a journey to upgrade the All bios or migrate to a new All form factor. Hopefully we aren't going to be asked to unplug it and then plug it back in.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Less "everything is predestined" and more psychohistory.

    The Commander is the Mule?

    Accepting this idea of soft-predetermination where the details of an event can be changed but the event will still happen, then I think its probably closer to the old concept that time is a wide river and while you can toss all the stones in it you want it's still going to the ocean. This would still mean that there is a shape to Tyria's future that the Kralk Family would have seen. Perhaps Kranlk was too filled with torment to realize that he could change things. Or perhaps he felt that the river must flow as intended because it will regardless.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Avatar of the Tree: But be warned—the future can change in the blink of an eye...

    Then we went and fought a big floating eye that used to hit a lot harder than it does now. It was clearly an attempt at being clever by the writers. But if we take the statement at face value: She has also contradictorily told Caithe not to question the dream, and that everyone has a role to play in events. These are not statements about free will.

    BUUUT.... The Pale Tree isn't a good reference for GW's cosmology. These statements could simply have could also been subconscious references to their existence as dragon minions. The Dream itself was really nothing more than Mordremoth's version of the NSA once you take into account that Sylvari were born, sent out to find information about the world, and then bringing that all back. (In a way Scarlet and the Nightmare Court were doing the right thing by rebelling, they were just rebelling in the most garbage way possible.)

    We never really got much of a follow up on the fallout of HoT in regards to Sylvari discovering their true nature, but the effect is that everything they believe about themselves, as well as the proclamations of the Pale Tree, is suspect.

    The Commander will end you.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just a thought: there is no immediate reason to associate the DSD with Cantha. As was pointed out, we know where the DSD is, or at least where it WAS: in the Endless Ocean west or northwest (ish) of Kryta. That's a long way to go even by an ED's standards.

    HOWEVER, Primordus was last known (as of the end of LS3E5) to be asleep under Draconis Mons -- which is much closer to Cantha than the DSD. Primordus is also known for covering significant distances via the underground. So it may well be Primordus, not the DSD, whom we face in Cantha.

    Not that we really NEED to fight an Elder Dragon in Cantha. Cantha has no shortage of home grown horrors to face...demon magic, leviathans, and Six only know what the nation of Cantha itself has become since Usoku went all crazy racist isolationist on everyone. There's real potential for Cantha to be a place where we face more human evils than fantastic ones, and that would be one heck of a storytelling combo breaker for the game if Anet chose to go that route.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2020

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    Gods and Elders of a sphere of magic are narrative devices used to portray compulsive and pathological personalities where compulsively applying or thinking about the sphere of magic is the pathology. Tyrian magiphysics may make this narrative device explicit. The human gods and Elder dragons may not be able to think for themselves or have complete free will.

    That's a really intriguing notion. The idea that, for dragon-kind and perhaps also the gods, there is no such thing as free will. It's a subject that I've long-contemplated. Could the desire for free will be at the core of Glint's motivations? Is torment forced on dragon-kind and they simply want to choose whether they accept the mantle of responsibility or not? The mind boggles.

    The magic sphere may carve out a portion of the mind to inhabit. Hosting one sphere at a low power level may not pose a significant risk to the self as there would be enough mind remaining to run a self. However, increasing the power level of a sphere or increasing the range of spheres would decrease the space available to run a self.

    You've lost me here. Care to elaborate?

    Hosting multiple spheres could require space to buffer them or spheres could repel each other taking up more space and creating dissonance. I guess I see "Torment" as describing the voice or "mind sound" of a sphere of magic within an Elder dragon. If magic reaches too high a level or too many magics are brought together in a mind, then Torment increases. The human gods may suffer Torment as well but have ways to manage it. Perhaps being part of a pantheon is key. They work together, talk to each other, bolster each others minds.

    My thoughts, too. I have a theory about how they managed torment: An elaborate mating ritual between Abaddon and Dwayna. However, as we know, whatever blissful state the gods enjoyed was eventually disrupted when Abaddon fell. Why did he fall? Well, I'd say that the torment that he normally discharged through loving procreation with Dwayna eventually made him into a monster and he tried to force himself on her, inviting Dwayna's eternal scorn. Without another lover capable of "filling Abaddon's boots", as it were, humans were screwed.

    Could the Elder Dragons do a better job than the human gods? Well, they're far more ruthless, and loving or not, if they want you to help them deal with torment, it's mighty hard to refuse them their request.

    Jormag may only be able to apply a small portion of its mind to free will. They may be trapped in a way of thinking dominated by their spheres of magic and multi-sphere dissonance. They may even be trying to run a game on themselves, trying to trick themselves into ending the cycle. Is the small sliver of Jormag's true self trying to trick the rest of its mind into dying?

    That's deep. I like that. At this point, though, none of the dragons have willingly indicated a desire to change the way the cycle progresses. Mortals have had to bloody their noses before this possibility occurs to them.

    Aurene's unique physiology can be explained as long as we accept that her mind could effect her physical transformation during her ascension to Elder dragon. In Tyria, there is an obvious symmetry between mind and matter and a mind less willing to cause harm could encourage a less dangerous physiology to emerge. Aurene's physiology may give her an advantage but I don't see how it can completely protect her. Well, the studio could just say that it does but an Aurene able to defy what would be a significant aspect of the Eternal Alchemy would be hard to believe. Hopefully we see an Aurene terrified of her future self and the danger she could pose. Hopefully we are on a journey to upgrade the All bios or migrate to a new All form factor. Hopefully we aren't going to be asked to unplug it and then plug it back in.

    You could be onto something there. Here's how I see it: Love has a part to play in this, but only in the short term. As you suggest, dragon-kind may need mortal help to progress to it's next evolutionary step and finally overcome the problem of torment. This may be the All itself, essentially exhausting the process of natural evolution and having to fall back on a fail-safe, a last resort, in which the minds of those who still retain them aid it in searching for a solution past this latest existential conundrum. Juxtaposed to that, there is the fact that everything has been ticking over just fine in Tyria with every other cycle. Is Tyria enriched or impoverished by the ruthless intent of hungry dragons?

    A part of me has suspicions about Glint. Maybe she's got designs on elevating herself into a form of godhood the likes of which no Tyrian has ever seen? Not a human god, not a norn Spirit of the Wild; not a White Stag, nor the power of science and industry; but a Single, Almighty, Universally-accepted entity to which all Tyrians turn and whom all Tyrians worship. Complete obedience, no free will. The thought is terrifying.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    The magic sphere may carve out a portion of the mind to inhabit. Hosting one sphere at a low power level may not pose a significant risk to the self as there would be enough mind remaining to run a self. However, increasing the power level of a sphere or increasing the range of spheres would decrease the space available to run a self.

    You've lost me here. Care to elaborate?

    Approach a mind as you would a computer with finite capacities to store and run software. A mind free of magic would have 100% of that capacity available for "self" software. Magic, once introduced, reduces the capacity available to run "self" since it needs mind resources and it runs software that doesn't necessarily resonate with "self" software. The software for Jormag's self may have never cared about ice or manipulation but the Ice Magic and Manipulation Magic software is always running in their mind and imprinting on their "self". Jormag would compulsively think about luring someone out onto a frozen lake.

    My thoughts, too. I have a theory about how they managed torment: An elaborate mating ritual between Abaddon and Dwayna. However, as we know, whatever blissful state the gods enjoyed was eventually disrupted when Abaddon fell. Why did he fall? Well, I'd say that the torment that he normally discharged through loving procreation with Dwayna eventually made him into a monster and he tried to force himself on her, inviting Dwayna's eternal scorn. Without another lover capable of "filling Abaddon's boots", as it were, humans were screwed.

    Could the Elder Dragons do a better job than the human gods? Well, they're far more ruthless, and loving or not, if they want you to help them deal with torment, it's mighty hard to refuse them their request.

    There would be no limit on how elaborate the gods' mating rituals could get. I am not being serious. I hope the gods get to hook up and it would be spectacular but I don't think god sex magic is responsible.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2020

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    The magic sphere may carve out a portion of the mind to inhabit. Hosting one sphere at a low power level may not pose a significant risk to the self as there would be enough mind remaining to run a self. However, increasing the power level of a sphere or increasing the range of spheres would decrease the space available to run a self.

    You've lost me here. Care to elaborate?

    Approach a mind as you would a computer with finite capacities to store and run software. A mind free of magic would have 100% of that capacity available for "self" software. Magic, once introduced, reduces the capacity available to run "self" since it needs mind resources and it runs software that doesn't necessarily resonate with "self" software. The software for Jormag's self may have never cared about ice or manipulation but the Ice Magic and Manipulation Magic software is always running in their mind and imprinting on their "self". Jormag would compulsively think about luring someone out onto a frozen lake.

    I'm following, I think. Maybe, to translate your paradigm into a worldview most Tyrians can understand, we could say that the Elder Dragons are possessed by torment?

    What is torment, though? One way to think of it is as conflicting magic. That might be how an asura would describe it. Charr and sylvari might well agree with that. Humans and norn? I can see them going a little further, stating that torment is the presence of malevolent spirits (i.e. demons) within the mind of a being, whomever that should be. Dragons, though, are probably more empathetic than even mankind and so find themselves, more often than not, playing host to demons who offer them the very thing they're biologically predisposed to enjoy: dark, twisted magic.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @thepenmonster.3621 said:
    Then we went and fought a big floating eye that used to hit a lot harder than it does now. It was clearly an attempt at being clever by the writers. But if we take the statement at face value: She has also contradictorily told Caithe not to question the dream, and that everyone has a role to play in events. These are not statements about free will.

    I would disagree on both parts. First off, while we do fight an Eye of Zhaitan in both the vision and later, the location differs greatly - on top of that, characters seen in the camp are different, King Reza is far more coherent in The Source of Orr, Trahearne's motivational speech never occurs, and the gate guardian wields a hammer instead of a greatsword. Small, but ultimately important, situations.

    As to what the Pale Tree tells Caithe - that doesn't spell out predetermination, but rather denoting that everyone, regardless of who they are, can influence events. This is, in fact, the opposite of pre-determination, and one of the core values of free will.

    The Dream itself was really nothing more than Mordremoth's version of the NSA once you take into account that Sylvari were born, sent out to find information about the world, and then bringing that all back. (In a way Scarlet and the Nightmare Court were doing the right thing by rebelling, they were just rebelling in the most garbage way possible.)

    Except that the Dream isn't serving Mordremoth. The Dream and Nightmare are both actively fighting the Elder Dragons, including Mordremoth. In The World Summit, sylvari PCs are given a Wyld Hunt by the Dream of Dreams to slay Mordremoth, for example.

    In fact, the Pale Tree, Ogden, and out-of-character HoT promotions all establish that the Dream of Dreams is what prevents sylvari from being corrupted by Elder Dragons, including Mordremoth - which is why Mordremoth has to do his loophole jumping jacks to send out his call into the minds of sylvari by exploiting his own connection to the Dream of Dreams.

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    Just a thought: there is no immediate reason to associate the DSD with Cantha. As was pointed out, we know where the DSD is, or at least where it WAS: in the Endless Ocean west or northwest (ish) of Kryta. That's a long way to go even by an ED's standards.

    HOWEVER, Primordus was last known (as of the end of LS3E5) to be asleep under Draconis Mons -- which is much closer to Cantha than the DSD. Primordus is also known for covering significant distances via the underground. So it may well be Primordus, not the DSD, whom we face in Cantha.

    Based on the quaggans, karka, krait, and largos, the DSD would be west by southwest of Tyria - as the four make landfall on the Tarnished Coast, Orr, and Sea of Sorrows' shores exclusively.

    That said, this would still place the DSD as the closest Elder Dragon to Cantha - as it would be beyond the Ring of Fire from the Sea of Sorrows.

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    My thoughts, too. I have a theory about how they managed torment: An elaborate mating ritual between Abaddon and Dwayna. However, as we know, whatever blissful state the gods enjoyed was eventually disrupted when Abaddon fell. Why did he fall? Well, I'd say that the torment that he normally discharged through loving procreation with Dwayna eventually made him into a monster and he tried to force himself on her, inviting Dwayna's eternal scorn. Without another lover capable of "filling Abaddon's boots", as it were, humans were screwed.

    ... what?

    That makes no sense. How could some poor fan-fiction quality action between two individuals prevent magical torment in four individuals not partaking in any action?

    To quote you: "You've lost me here. Care to elaborate?"

    That said, there's a lot more relation depicted between Abaddon and Lyssa, than Abaddon and Dwayna. Not to mention Dwayna seems to have a thing for mortals, otherwise we'd be seeing little baby gods here and there.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2020

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    The magic sphere may carve out a portion of the mind to inhabit. Hosting one sphere at a low power level may not pose a significant risk to the self as there would be enough mind remaining to run a self. However, increasing the power level of a sphere or increasing the range of spheres would decrease the space available to run a self.

    You've lost me here. Care to elaborate?

    Approach a mind as you would a computer with finite capacities to store and run software. A mind free of magic would have 100% of that capacity available for "self" software. Magic, once introduced, reduces the capacity available to run "self" since it needs mind resources and it runs software that doesn't necessarily resonate with "self" software. The software for Jormag's self may have never cared about ice or manipulation but the Ice Magic and Manipulation Magic software is always running in their mind and imprinting on their "self". Jormag would compulsively think about luring someone out onto a frozen lake.

    I'm following, I think. Maybe, to translate your paradigm into a worldview most Tyrians can understand, we could say that the Elder Dragons are possessed by torment?

    What is torment, though? One way to think of it is as conflicting magic. That might be how an asura would describe it. Charr and sylvari might well agree with that. Humans and norn? They might go a little further and state that torment is the presence of malevolent spirits within the mind of a being, whomever that should be. Dragons, though, are probably more empathetic than even mankind and so, find them more often than not, playing host to demons who offer them the very thing they're biologically predisposed to enjoy: dark, twisted magic.

    Possessed by magic.

    My model for Torment is closer to mental illness and I think Tyrians would have experience with mental illness. Mortal magic users would be familiar with their sphere of magic intruding unbidden on their thoughts. An elementalist may find themselves thinking about fire compulsively and a necromancer's first response to anything may be to raise a minion. All Tyrians would need to practice how to manage the willfulness of magic. Thankfully, most mortals can't command an amount of magic that threatens their mental health. Elder dragons don't have that luxury. By choice or instinct, they can command magic enough to make insanity or loss of self to magic unavoidable. At Elder dragon power levels, unbidden magic thoughts could become very powerful and potentially manifest as hallucinations. Perhaps a sphere of magic could appropriate enough mind resources and achieve a pseudo agency within an Elder dragon's mind.

    I like the idea of the All as analogous to a star. As life on a planet evolves and minds begin wielding magic, the energy density of magic increases until a magic star ignites. The most powerful species or individuals of that species are integrated into the star. They become central to the convective cycle of magic. New magics would be forged within the star. Elder dragons or something like them would be required and the star wouldn't need to be concerned about their mental health. It wouldn't need to care if the Elder dragons metabolized civilizations and most life. It wouldn't need to be capable of caring. It exists and could go supernova without its Elders.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • @Psientist.6437 said:

    Approach a mind as you would a computer with finite capacities to store and run software. A mind free of magic would have 100% of that capacity available for "self" software. Magic, once introduced, reduces the capacity available to run "self" since it needs mind resources and it runs software that doesn't necessarily resonate with "self" software. The software for Jormag's self may have never cared about ice or manipulation but the Ice Magic and Manipulation Magic software is always running in their mind and imprinting on their "self". Jormag would compulsively think about luring someone out onto a frozen lake.

    Seems like it might be an analogy on a concept of ones nature. If so, I would agree that the dragons/gods powers and roles would affect their personality but I wouldn't say that they'd be free of influences without the powers and roles. I would think, that like mortals, their nature would just be heavily influenced by other factors instead.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    I'm following, I think. Maybe, to translate your paradigm into a worldview most Tyrians can understand, we could say that the Elder Dragons are possessed by torment?

    Possessed by magic.

    I agree. The Elder Dragons are possessed by magic. In my opinion, torment is just dirty magic, as opposed to clean - or pure - magic, which we encounter every now and then.

    My model for Torment is closer to mental illness and I think Tyrians would have experience with mental illness. Mortal magic users would be familiar with their sphere of magic intruding unbidden on their thoughts. An elementalist may find themselves thinking about fire compulsively and a necromancer's first response to anything may be to raise a minion. All Tyrians would need to practice how to manage the willfulness of magic. Thankfully, most mortals can't command an amount of magic that threatens their mental health. Elder dragons don't have that luxury. By choice or instinct, they can command magic enough to make insanity or loss of self to magic unavoidable. At Elder dragon power levels, unbidden magic thoughts could become very powerful and potentially manifest as hallucinations. Perhaps a sphere of magic could appropriate enough mind resources and achieve a pseudo agency within an Elder dragon's mind.

    Mental illness is one way of thinking about torment. I like this approach, because it's easy for players to comprehend the subject. The one distinction between mental illness and magical possession, though, is that medical "professionals" would tell you that real-world maladies of the mind have nothing to do with magic. For that reason, I think that you're better to stick to fantastical explanations of the phenomena.

    I like the idea of the All as analogous to a star. As life on a planet evolves and minds begin wielding magic, the energy density of magic increases until a magic star ignites. The most powerful species or individuals of that species are integrated into the star. They become central to the convective cycle of magic. New magics would be forged within the star. Elder dragons or something like them would be required and the star wouldn't need to be concerned about their mental health. It wouldn't need to care if the Elder dragons metabolized civilizations and most life. It wouldn't need to be capable of caring. It exists and could go supernova without its Elders.

    Now that's a thought! What if this is a plot point? An uncaring multiverse showing newfound regard for some of it's sublimest denizens?

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In terms of why Aurene might be more resistant to Torment than the other Elder Dragons...

    I think it might come down to the motivation behind replacing the Elder Dragons in the first place - to substitute in entities that regulate magic rather than hoarding it. Aurene isn't trying to claim all the magic for herself - she's taking in enough that the world's ambient magical field remains somewhat in check, and redistributing the rest. As opposed to the original Elder Dragons, which try to consume everything while awake and then it leaks out while they sleep. Because of this, she might be keeping her own magic level within the constraints that a dragon can maintain while also retaining their sanity.

    Which means two things:

    First, she's always going to be less powerful than the other Elder Dragons. Her personal power is probably going to be less, and she's not going to be able to maintain the armies of minions that the other Elder Dragons do. It's telling, in fact, that the Icebrood prelude shows that Aurene seems to be focusing on destroying Branded rather than simply having assumed control over them herself. (Although it's possible that what she's done is released them, so that intelligent Branded such as surviving Branded Forgotten might now be working for her, while non-intelligent Branded are now essentially dangerous animals).

    The second is that if Aurene is maintaining her sanity by keeping her personal magic level carefully regulated, there's always the threat that at some stage she's going to miscalculate and end up with too much.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    The primary goal now, when afflicted by torment, is to consume all magic as greedily as possible. But as we learn with the Bloodstone-Crazed and those influenced by ley-line magic, those who get overexposed to magic begin craving magic.

    To me, this is a very strong indication that "just because it is their main actions now, doesn't mean it always was."

    As such, to me, this is in turn not an indication that pre-Torment Kralkatorrik (or any ED pre-Torment) was primarily after consuming all types of magic. If anything, consuming all types of magic while sane seems more like a means to an end rather than the end itself. Much like with Caudecus, for example - his goal wasn't to consume bloodstone shards and go batshit insane with a greed for more bloodstone magic; he was just consuming bloodstone shards in order to gain enough power to obtain his goal of winning the war after he got backed into a corner.

    I find it far more likely for all Elder Dragons to have gone after consuming too much magic either little by little, or as a means to an end for their goal - depending on whether they were "good" or "evil" before being afflicted with magical Torment. Does that mean it would be so for every Elder Dragon? Nah. Just some.

    It's possible that the original motivation was power for a specific purpose rather than power for power's sake... but whatever original motivation that might have been has been lost to eons of time. Either way, unless the Elder Dragons really did exist forever (and the implication that Kralkatorrik had a mother seems to contradict that), there is some point at which the group that would become the Elder Dragons decided to collect all the magic they could at the expense of everything else in Tyria. That's the one event that we can have good reason to think happened before Torment kicked in (since Torment is presented as a symptom of one entity having too much magic), and it is an entirely adequate explanation of Kralkatorrik being "not good" without pinning it on rejecting a vision which Sane Kralkatorrik shows no sign of rejecting in the instance, and if anything seems to welcome it.

    The impression I get is that Kralkatorrik's vision and creation of Glaust was a relatively recent event, possibly during the last Dragonrise - well after Kralkatorrik's Torment was well established. So actions taken in opposition to the vision can be entirely pinned on Torment.

    @thepenmonster.3621 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Less "everything is predestined" and more psychohistory.

    The Commander is the Mule?

    Accepting this idea of soft-predetermination where the details of an event can be changed but the event will still happen, then I think its probably closer to the old concept that time is a wide river and while you can toss all the stones in it you want it's still going to the ocean. This would still mean that there is a shape to Tyria's future that the Kralk Family would have seen. Perhaps Kranlk was too filled with torment to realize that he could change things. Or perhaps he felt that the river must flow as intended because it will regardless.

    Actually, given that there are a number of races and professions that the Commander could be, the number of other NPCs floating around that are at least close to the Commander's power level, and the fact that Kralkatorrik's vision requires someone equivalent to the Commander, I don't think the Commander is the Mule. Instead, the Commander is a manifestation of the fact that the playable races are each able to produce someone like the Commander, and in the circumstances the playable races were in, it was inevitable that someone would take up that mantle.

    But that's the general theme behind the concept of psychohistory - each individual is able to determine their own fate, but the aggregate is predictable. If the human Commander got brained by the earth elemental rather than simply knocked unconscious, a charr (or other race) Commander rises instead. If Bangar had told Jormag to shove it, maybe Jormag would have started working on a centaur leader or anti-human Tribune instead.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2020

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    It's possible that the original motivation was power for a specific purpose rather than power for power's sake... but whatever original motivation that might have been has been lost to eons of time.

    Which is pretty much the premise I'm going after, and the only hint to a possible motivation is the vision.

    Either way, unless the Elder Dragons really did exist forever (and the implication that Kralkatorrik had a mother seems to contradict that), there is some point at which the group that would become the Elder Dragons decided to collect all the magic they could at the expense of everything else in Tyria. That's the one event that we can have good reason to think happened before Torment kicked in (since Torment is presented as a symptom of one entity having too much magic), and it is an entirely adequate explanation of Kralkatorrik being "not good" without pinning it on rejecting a vision which Sane Kralkatorrik shows no sign of rejecting in the instance, and if anything seems to welcome it.

    Not necessarily. Unless you're including while under the influence of magical torment in this "decision". But to me, the magical torment is akin to addictions and other similar and subtle changes-in-mentality, and it isn't explicitly a decision on the Elder Dragons' part to focus on consuming magic at the expense of everything else, and is more like a slow-but-increasing rate of "I need more".

    Furthermore, the magical torment could have been afflicted by going after too much magic without the whole "at the expense of everything else in Tyria", and that ended up being tacked on after being afflicted by torment that furthered their drive for more magic.

    The impression I get is that Kralkatorrik's vision and creation of Glaust was a relatively recent event, possibly during the last Dragonrise - well after Kralkatorrik's Torment was well established. So actions taken in opposition to the vision can be entirely pinned on Torment.

    I suppose this is where we're in primary disagreement. To me, the mention of the vision sounds more like something far older, as due to torment, Kralkatorrik seems to be very animalistic and capable of little intellect. This was also brought up in Guild Chat 85, where they commented upon wanting to make that distinction - where up until entering Kralkatorrik, he has been depicted as very primal, especially compared to Jormag and Mordremoth, only to reveal that he isn't but he seems that way for a reason.

    When influenced by his torment, Kralkatorrik seems to be working purely on a "feed and kill everything" mentality, not thinking about more complex things like visions, family ties, and value of others.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    From what we're told, the vision would have to have been a long time ago to have predated Kralkatorrik having any Torment at all. There's the possibility of having moments of lucidity in there, and while Glint is old, she doesn't seem to be old enough to predate the development of any Torment at all.

    At the bottom line, we simply don't know enough about the timeline to pin Kralkatorrik's "not good" status on his response to the vision, especially since we have the fact of all Elder Dragons having consumed having too much magic as a common thread. We have plenty of cases of greed for magic leading to conflict even before magic-induced insanity kicks in (the eponymous Guild Wars, for instance), and greed for magic is a common theme for Elder Dragons and apparently a temptation for dragons in general, so I think Occam's Razor suggests that the explanation for Kralkatorrik - and the other Elder Dragons - being bad pre-Torment is that at some point they decided to start eating magic regardless of the consequences. The impression I get is that Glint herself is not so old that the vision could have come before Kralkatorrik was afflicted with Torment.

    Either way, we certainly don't have enough information to point to Sane Kralkatorrik rejecting the vision as anything more than a theory. Especially since he seems to approve of the end result of the vision in the instance. Sure, you could interpret that as purely being a case of loving his granddaughter despite his granddaughter doing something that he hates so much that opposing it has been his primary motivation, but I think that's a bit of a stretch. It's much more consistent with his behaviour that the vision is something his sane self approves of, but it came at a time when Torment was in control of most of his actions.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2020

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    The impression I get is that Glint herself is not so old that the vision could have come before Kralkatorrik was afflicted with Torment.

    Good point.

    Either way, we certainly don't have enough information to point to Sane Kralkatorrik rejecting the vision as anything more than a theory. Especially since he seems to approve of the end result of the vision in the instance. Sure, you could interpret that as purely being a case of loving his granddaughter despite his granddaughter doing something that he hates so much that opposing it has been his primary motivation, but I think that's a bit of a stretch. It's much more consistent with his behaviour that the vision is something his sane self approves of, but it came at a time when Torment was in control of most of his actions.

    I guess that's the rub. Given the opportunity, Kralk would rather dragon-kind be free of torment than ruled by it. I wonder, though, are dragons truly capable of good? Presumably, Kralkatorrik's propensity to do evil led to the problem of torment?

    Maybe we need to think about how dragons get from being "evil" to "good"? In my opinion, this journey can only be realized through torment, for it is torment that holds a dragon's evil behavior aloft, a mirror in the eye of it's mind, revealing to itself it's true nature and driving it insane in the search for relief through the conception of goodness. Hence, Kralk's good side developed after his evil side, a kind of child (in a manner of writing) of his torment.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    From what we're told, the vision would have to have been a long time ago to have predated Kralkatorrik having any Torment at all. There's the possibility of having moments of lucidity in there, and while Glint is old, she doesn't seem to be old enough to predate the development of any Torment at all.

    We don't have any clue how old Glint might be. She has "3,000 years of memory" because the Forgotten ritual made her forget much of pre-purified life, but beyond that we have no clue how old she is.

    I don't think that an Elder Dragon afflicted with torment to such a degree that he is beneath animals of level intelligence and focused solely on eating and destroying things is capable of having and raising children. Unless Glint was basically a sylvari where she was born "fully grown", and didn't have an Aurene-like time of adolescence, I don't see her surviving..

    Either way, we certainly don't have enough information to point to Sane Kralkatorrik rejecting the vision as anything more than a theory.

    I... never said it was anything more than a theory.

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Sure, you could interpret that as purely being a case of loving his granddaughter despite his granddaughter doing something that he hates so much that opposing it has been his primary motivation, but I think that's a bit of a stretch. It's much more consistent with his behaviour that the vision is something his sane self approves of, but it came at a time when Torment was in control of most of his actions.

    I believe that it's more that Kralkatorrik is tired of the pain and suffering he's going through, and so greatly regrets killing Glint (which he outright states), that he has given up.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    We were told, back in the day, that "Glint and Kuunavang were but youths, lesser powers to the ancients that came before." Could be unreliable narrator again, but that seems like a hint that Glint is young relative to Kralkatorrik. The Crystalline Memories instance also reveals that while Glint's memory before the cleansing is fragmented and incomplete, she does remember bits and pieces of it, including enough for her to believe that she was created to prevent the vision from coming to pass.

    And if we're to bring her pre-cleansing memories into question, we're also bringing into question the source for Kralkatorrik having taken steps to prevent the vision at all.

    As for Glint's survival - even in the grip of Torment, Kralkatorrik didn't destroy the things that he felt already belonged to him, and if Glint had a particular purpose, she's useful. As insane as the Torment personality was, it's clearly still sapient, so while Kralkatorrik might have been animalistic in behaviour, he was never of animal intelligence. And, heck, even animals often look after their young (depending on the species, of course).

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    We were told, back in the day, that "Glint and Kuunavang were but youths, lesser powers to the ancients that came before." Could be unreliable narrator again, but that seems like a hint that Glint is young relative to Kralkatorrik.

    Even if Glint predates Kralkatorrik's Torment, that doesn't mean she is as old as Kralkatorrik by a longshot. Kralkatorrik could have been a non-Elder Dragon for generations, and an Elder Dragon without torment for equally or even longer, making him easily millennia old when Glint was born. The issue with assuming "Glint cannot be very old" because "she's young compared to the Elder Dragons" is that we have no clue how old the Elder Dragons actually are. If they were 'only' 30,000 years old, then a 10,000 year old Glint would still be considered young compared to them.

    The Crystalline Memories instance also reveals that while Glint's memory before the cleansing is fragmented and incomplete, she does remember bits and pieces of it, including enough for her to believe that she was created to prevent the vision from coming to pass.

    Except for the "was created to" part, I'd agree here (as I've been saying). She never states she was created for the purpose of the vision - just that Kralkatorrik "demanded" her help.

    Given the wording, that implies she was not corrupted/enslaved to Kralkatorrik's will, because Kralkatorrik "demanded" and Glint "refused". This means the event she's talking about is either a) moments before she was corrupted or b) after she was purfied and Kralkatorrik realized her betrayal.

    However, given Kralkatorrik's personality when afflicted by Torment, he seems too driven by the most basic of animalistic instincts to do something like demand servitude of a betrayer, or focus on anything but "consume and corrupt all, destroy the rest" since the demanding would be "if I can't corrupt you, you will ally with me".

    As for Glint's survival - even in the grip of Torment, Kralkatorrik didn't destroy the things that he felt already belonged to him, and if Glint had a particular purpose, she's useful. As insane as the Torment personality was, it's clearly still sapient, so while Kralkatorrik might have been animalistic in behaviour, he was never of animal intelligence. And, heck, even animals often look after their young (depending on the species, of course).

    One would think if Kralkatorrik could raise a scion under the influence of Torment, there'd be more than one. Unless she hunted down her own siblings rather than try to free them while Kralkatorrik slept or something. And by survival, I was more referring to battling against Kralkatorrik's enemies - Kralkatorrik may not destroy the things that he feels belong to him, like the Branded, but he certainly doesn't care about their survival either. In Edge of Destiny, for the sake of destroying the mind that was assaulting him, he wiped out several of his own branded. And he doesn't bother trying to protect any of his champions, or boost their power when they're in trouble - the closest to such is bringing them back as Death-Branded.

    Those who fight the Elder Dragons tend to go after their champions first and foremost, which would have been Glint's position, even as an adolescent. So she would have been a target (as indeed she was by the Forgotten), yet somehow survived her adolescence phase. Which no doubt would have been far longer than Aurene because Kralkatorrik is greedy and likely wouldn't share enough magic to force growth after a couple years. Glint is rather stunted compared to most dragon champions, being the size of Drakkar/Vlast/Elder Aurene. Since magic also = growth to varying degrees (as is age, hence Aurene), it feels like she was as deprived of magic as Vlast was.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    One would think if Kralkatorrik could raise a scion under the influence of Torment, there'd be more than one.

    We simply lack key information on the reproductive process of Elder Dragons to know for sure..

    I put forward a theory not long ago that Elder Dragons may not actually be capable of reproduction after ascending to Elder Dragon status, possibly due to the changes their bodies go though when they ascend and the irrelevancy of reproduction to immortal beings who can create hordes of minions and powerful champions.

    This would explain the lack of known scions among them considering how old they are and could also explain why they seem to prefer to construct their Champions like Tequatl and Shatterer rather than produce Scions to take on that role.
    The only Dragon/Dragonlike creature I can think of besides Glint that may possibly be an Elder Dragon Scion is Drakkar.. but there is no evidence to support that connection other than Drakkar being Jormags oldest Champion.. and that alone simply isnt enough to go on.

    If this theory is accurate though then it would also dictate that Glint's egg was laid prior to Kralkatorrik becoming an Elder Dragon although when she hatched would still be a mystery.. all we know is she was around during the last Dragon Rising and she did not remember much before she was freed from Kralkatorriks corruption.
    So she is at least around 10,000 years old but could be much much older than that.

    Judging from Glint herself though despite being over 10,000 years old she had the ability to lay eggs but only 2 of them that we know of ever hatched and we don't know what happened to the others or how many she ever laid, however Aurines Egg has been stated to be the last of them and Vlast was proclaimed to be her first Scion so it's quite possible none of the other eggs survived or hatched.

    One other factor that birthed this theory too is Aurine.
    With this whole narrative that we can't kill Elder Dragons without replacements it would be a pretty lame cop-out if we just ended up with.. Aurines all grown up now, she can just make more Scions to replace the other Elder Dragons... it's as bad a narrative as Aurine being able to replace them all imo.
    It would basically boil the whole plot down to "Hooray Aurine is our we win button"

    I think a lot of people would be pretty annoyed with that as a solution if Anet went down that road, I know I would be..
    It would make for a far better and more interesting story if we had to come up with other solutions to deal with the Dragons.. or find other beings who can take up their roles.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 12, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I put forward a theory not long ago that Elder Dragons may not actually be capable of reproduction after ascending to Elder Dragon status, possibly due to the changes their bodies go though when they ascend and the irrelevancy of reproduction to immortal beings who can create hordes of minions and powerful champions.

    This would explain the lack of known scions among them considering how old they are and could also explain why they seem to prefer to construct their Champions like Tequatl and Shatterer rather than produce Scions to take on that role.
    The only Dragon/Dragonlike creature I can think of besides Glint that may possibly be an Elder Dragon Scion is Drakkar.. but there is no evidence to support that connection other than Drakkar being Jormags oldest Champion.. and that alone simply isnt enough to go on.

    I think that you might be onto something there. A kodan remarks that Jormag has been molding and changing Drakkar. Maybe the pre-existing method of Elder Dragon reproduction is to construct offspring from whatever beings and/or landscape is available? The procedure would probably be akin to carving a statue. (In fact, the asura mistook Primordus for a statue before it awoke.) Perhaps this is the reason why we see so many statues around Tyria? One famous story of carving a statue comes to mind: the Tragedy of Malchor. Malchor tried to accurately reproduce Dwayna's form in stone but was never fully satisfied with his efforts. In the Strait of Malchor, many incomplete statues of the goddess Dwayna litter the depths, inscribed with such plaques as: "And again, Dwayna, and again, and again, until I have captured your beauty, you. You will be mine! You will be MINE!" In the most recent release of Bjora Marches, we see a vision of a mysterious kodan jumping off a cliff, something that reminds me of Malchor's plight and may well be a nod from Development, signalling that Malchor's tale is at the heart of the story of Guild Wars 2.

    So where am I going with this? Well, what if the Elder Dragons can reproduce, but not in the manners with which we are familiar? What if they reproduce by cloning? That would certainly make Mordremoth's behavior during Heart of Thorns easier to understand. As you may all recall, Aurene sends the PC a vision of Mordremoth cloning significant members of the Pact. That vision establishes that at least one of the Elder's reproduces simply by cloning. But what if Mordremoth isn't the only Elder doing so? What if, ultimately, most of the Elder Dragons that we've encountered do use cloning, but they do so with varying levels of efficiency, such that their scions don't always resemble them, or only inherit some of their characteristics? Thus, Drakkar is Jormag's "clone", but looks sufficiently dissimilar that mortals comparing the two wouldn't consider them to be related unless informed of as much by either Drakkar or Jormag.

    One other factor that birthed this theory too is Aurine.
    With this whole narrative that we can't kill Elder Dragons without replacements it would be a pretty lame cop-out if we just ended up with.. Aurines all grown up now, she can just make more Scions to replace the other Elder Dragons... it's as bad a narrative as Aurine being able to replace them all imo.
    It would basically boil the whole plot down to "Hooray Aurine is our we win button"

    I don't know about the rest of you, but Jormag's vision seems to place the theme of reproduction under the spotlight. Jormag states that it's audience doesn't "fear death", but the day that their " children will no longer feel the chill of the frost or the warmth of the flame". Who is Jormag addressing? Some think that it was Bangar, but my feeling is that it's actually Aurene. It probably doesn't matter either way, though. The point is that Jormag is familiar with the concept of reproduction.

    I believe that Jormag is Kralk's mother. But if Elder Dragon's reproduce by inefficiently cloning themselves; by "molding" and "changing" their scions in a manner akin to a mortal like Malchor carving a statue, what if torment represents imperfections and inefficiencies in this process?

    Anyway, let's get to the substance of my thoughts. We don't know if Kralkatorrik shaped Glint, or if he fertilized a female dragon's egg. What if Glint's mother isn't Jormag, but Bubbles? The idea here would be that, during the previous dragon rise, the Deep Sea Dragon produced an orb, similar to the blue orb, but rather than losing it to the mortal races, as is the case in this rise, it was successfully delivered to Kralkatorrik, who proceeded to fertilize it in the hope of creating a new way for the Elder Dragons to breed? They would no longer take scions from the "stock" of existing living beings, or form them from the landscape, but take of themselves through meiosis rather than mitosis?

    But something went wrong. I don't have any thoughts on that yet.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Crystalline Memories isn't our only source on Glint's memories. For instance, in Edge of Destiny she talks about her purpose having been to listen in on the thoughts of mortals. Now, there was certainly a degree of deception by not telling the whole truth there, but she seems to have a pretty good idea of what her function was before being purified by the Forgotten. Sure, we're told that her memory before than was fragmented (although if that particular recording was made shortly after the purification, it's possible that some of those memories returned over time) but, nevertheless, those fragments exist. It's not a complete amnesia, more like remembering parts of your early childhood.

    Ultimately, I think your theory has too many assumptions and holes to be regarded as the one certain truth.

    Particularly given this series of lines:

    Kralkatorrik's Torment: THESE CREATURES MAKE YOU WEAK!
    Kralkatorrik: They are her strength.
    Kralkatorrik's Torment: SHE BETRAYS HER OWN KIND!
    Kralkatorrik: She is the first of her kind.

    Look at the first two lines in particular. Torment clearly disapproves of Aurene's alliance with mortals. If your hypothesis was correct, at this point I would expect Sane Kralkatorrik to demur without directly disagreeing, saying something like "I won't let you kill our granddaughter again". But Sane Kralkatorrik refutes Torment's claim head on: They are her strength. Sane Kralkatorrik agrees with Aurene allying with mortals. Meanwhile, Torment obviously doesn't. Every action taken to prevent the prophecy can, therefore, be attributed to Torment.

    Whatever motivations led Kralkatorrik to be "not good" in the past, either it wasn't the vision, or he has had a change of heart since (possibly when the Forgotten attempted to cleanse him). The sane Kralkatorrik we hear in the instance does not behave in a manner consistent with "I don't approve of this, but I'll let it happen because I don't want to hurt my cute little granddaughter!" He behaves in a manner that indicates that he approves of what Aurene (and, for that matter, the Commander) is trying to do.

    What is also interesting, for the context of this discussion, is that even Torment has a concept of "own kind". Which I think also provides an explanation for Glaust having been looked after until her cleansing and subsequent betrayal - Torment views Aurene and Glint as part of its own kind, in a manner that it wouldn't for some random Branded lizard or devourer.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Crystalline Memories isn't our only source on Glint's memories. For instance, in Edge of Destiny she talks about her purpose having been to listen in on the thoughts of mortals. Now, there was certainly a degree of deception by not telling the whole truth there, but she seems to have a pretty good idea of what her function was before being purified by the Forgotten. Sure, we're told that her memory before than was fragmented (although if that particular recording was made shortly after the purification, it's possible that some of those memories returned over time) but, nevertheless, those fragments exist. It's not a complete amnesia, more like remembering parts of your early childhood.

    Ultimately, I think your theory has too many assumptions and holes to be regarded as the one certain truth.

    Particularly given this series of lines:

    Kralkatorrik's Torment: THESE CREATURES MAKE YOU WEAK!
    Kralkatorrik: They are her strength.
    Kralkatorrik's Torment: SHE BETRAYS HER OWN KIND!
    Kralkatorrik: She is the first of her kind.

    Look at the first two lines in particular. Torment clearly disapproves of Aurene's alliance with mortals. If your hypothesis was correct, at this point I would expect Sane Kralkatorrik to demur without directly disagreeing, saying something like "I won't let you kill our granddaughter again". But Sane Kralkatorrik refutes Torment's claim head on: They are her strength. Sane Kralkatorrik agrees with Aurene allying with mortals. Meanwhile, Torment obviously doesn't. Every action taken to prevent the prophecy can, therefore, be attributed to Torment.

    Whatever motivations led Kralkatorrik to be "not good" in the past, either it wasn't the vision, or he has had a change of heart since (possibly when the Forgotten attempted to cleanse him). The sane Kralkatorrik we hear in the instance does not behave in a manner consistent with "I don't approve of this, but I'll let it happen because I don't want to hurt my cute little granddaughter!" He behaves in a manner that indicates that he approves of what Aurene (and, for that matter, the Commander) is trying to do.

    What is also interesting, for the context of this discussion, is that even Torment has a concept of "own kind". Which I think also provides an explanation for Glaust having been looked after until her cleansing and subsequent betrayal - Torment views Aurene and Glint as part of its own kind, in a manner that it wouldn't for some random Branded lizard or devourer.

    Draxx, who are you addressing here?

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    Who is Jormag addressing? Some think that it was Bangar, but my feeling is that it's actually Aurene. It probably doesn't matter either way, though. The point is that Jormag is familiar with the concept of reproduction.

    It was outright confirmed by ANet devs to be addressing Bangar.

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    I believe that Jormag is Kralk's mother.

    This seems fairly unlikely to me. I kind of feel like Jormag is being presented as a younger kind of dragon, plus Jormag identifies itself as non-binary - neither male nor female - yet Kralkatorrik's parent clearly identifies itself as female.

    So far, we have no evidence of pairings for reproduction (which makes me disagree with any notion of dual-parentage), and the Elder Dragons as a group have been labeled "genderless" and "non-binary" for the past 10 years, so it seems to me that any gender applied to Elder Dragons are merely a choice on their part - so Kralkatorrik's mother, whomever that may be, would no doubt be identifying as female.

    On an aside: The fact that Elder Dragons are labeled as "genderless" does give credence to the "cloning" concept of reproduction. However, given that Glint is drastically different from Kralkatorrik, and Vlast and Aurene moreso, it's clear that this isn't exactly the case. If we just focus on appearance, based on Aurene then the Elder Dragons' kin's appearances are very much determined by the magic they obtain / are hatched from. Aurene has a heavy resemblance to Mordremoth in her infant and adolescent appearances, which was the primary magic she had grown from. Her tail always resembled Kralkatorrik's tail quite a bit though, which would give to her crystal heritage, meanwhile Vlast's crystals were gold much like the Exalted - perhaps hinting that he had feasted off of some Exalted/Forgotten magic (his memory crystals do mention that he on occasion "snapped" at them...).

    The notion of "magic shaping the high dragon lineages" gives a bit of credence to the theory that Drakkar may have been Jormag's scion, as it was shaped by the magic it obtained from the Elder Dragons' death. Shame that it died though, as its potential roles is ruined.

    But overall, I'd call this less "cloning" and more of asexual reproduction through magic, both in nutrition and material to shape the body. It is often said that the Elder Dragons are "more magical than physical" so it makes sense that magic would literally define their appearance.

    As a devil's adovate role: if we were to label any of the five Elder Dragons as Glint's moth, the one I would pick is Primordus. Because of appearances:

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Primordus.jpg
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Glint_sitting.jpg

    Back in 2007-2009, before Glint was revealed as Kralkatorrik's child, the drastic similarity between the mane of Primordus and Glint was a topic of discussion and theorycrafting that Glint was in fact Primordus' child, and that this was why the destroyers were so eager to go after Glint's baby (now called Vlast). Another theory was that Primordus was Glint's mate, though I would argue this to be less likely.

    If I were to toss out the notion of asexual reproduction among high dragons, then I would definitely argue for Primordus being the momma dragon. Both because of appearance, and the form of Kralkatorrik's and Primordus' actions. Both are the only Elder Dragons who's sole goal is "consume and destroy", though Primordus focuses more on the destroy (specifically: kill) than Kralkatorrik, where Zhaitan has "kingdom of eternal life through undeath" and Jormag has "ice fortifies, ice protect" and Mordremoth has "I am this world", where killing and corrupting is a means to an end, Primordus and Kralkatorrik are "wipe out all life" mentalities with killing and corrupting being the ends themselves. At least, their goals / ends and means while influenced by magical torment.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 12, 2020

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I put forward a theory not long ago that Elder Dragons may not actually be capable of reproduction after ascending to Elder Dragon status, possibly due to the changes their bodies go though when they ascend and the irrelevancy of reproduction to immortal beings who can create hordes of minions and powerful champions.

    This would explain the lack of known scions among them considering how old they are and could also explain why they seem to prefer to construct their Champions like Tequatl and Shatterer rather than produce Scions to take on that role.
    The only Dragon/Dragonlike creature I can think of besides Glint that may possibly be an Elder Dragon Scion is Drakkar.. but there is no evidence to support that connection other than Drakkar being Jormags oldest Champion.. and that alone simply isnt enough to go on.

    I think that you might be onto something there. A kodan remarks that Jormag has been molding and changing Drakkar. Maybe the pre-existing method of Elder Dragon reproduction is to construct offspring from whatever beings and/or landscape is available? The procedure would probably be akin to carving a statue. (In fact, the asura mistook Primordus for a statue before it awoke.) Perhaps this is the reason why we see so many statues around Tyria? One famous story of carving a statue comes to mind: the Tragedy of Malchor. Malchor tried to accurately reproduce Dwayna's form in stone but was never fully satisfied with his efforts. In the Strait of Malchor, many incomplete statues of the goddess Dwayna litter the depths, inscribed with such plaques as: "And again, Dwayna, and again, and again, until I have captured your beauty, you. You will be mine! You will be MINE!" In the most recent release of Bjora Marches, we see a vision of a mysterious kodan jumping off a cliff, something that reminds me of Malchor's plight and may well be a nod from Development, signalling that Malchor's tale is at the heart of the story of Guild Wars 2.

    I think Jormag's molding and changing of Drakkar was more due to Drakkar's body being broken down by exposure to the elements during the dragonrise along with later reinforcement through slain Elder Dragon magic that Jormag managed to absorb.
    Ice fortifies, Ice protects as Jormag said to us.. I guess during it's rise and Drakkar being exposed to unfronzen water it lost that protection for a while and it's body was damaged as a result.

    Drakkar was at some point a living being though, not a construct like Shatterer, Tequatl and probably the Claws of Jormag too.
    We don't know much about the process of creating these champions, however it's stated that The Shatterer and others like it are:
    "hand-forged lieutenants created by Kralkatorrik, as opposed to corrupted beings like most branded"

    And we also know that Tequatl and others like him were created as confirmed by Anet:

    "ArenaNet confirmed that "Tequatl's evolution is an aftereffect of the death of Zhaitan. The magic used to "create" Tequatl is no longer being controlled by Zhaitan, but it still exists within Tequatl. Therefore, like many uncontrolled magics, it is experiencing an evolution and it is shaping itself."

    Shadow of the Dragon was too likely a construct as the only time we see the creature prior to living world season 2 is in the Dream prior to Sylvari PC's awakening.
    This one is a bit of a mess because Caithe attributes it's presence to the Nightmare that's invading the dream while the Pale Tree believes it to be a manifestation of the player's Wyld Hunt to defeat Zhaitan.
    Then it shows up in Season 2 in the real world as a Champion of Modremoth leading many to beleive that Mordremoth was actually behind the attack on the dream in the beginning.
    Sadly it's one of those things that Anet kind of moved on from without really explaining very well but considering what the Dragon looks like then it's very likely it was created and not corrupted, keeping with this trend of Draconic Champions being constructs and not corrupted beings.

    The Great Destroyer too does also resemble a Dragon and with most Destroyer's was likely constructed by Primordus rather than something corrupted.

    So since it's very likely all the large Draconic champions with exception to Glint and Drakkar are created and not born, and the Elder Dragons themselves are 10's of thousands to possibly hundreds of thousands of years old then the rarity of known Scions does strongly suggest that Elder Dragons don't seem able to produce them.
    If they could then they'd have no need to create these large Dragon constructs to serve as their Champions.

    Another note to is Kralkatorriks affection for Aurine, Glint and his unknown Mother.. if created champions like the Shatterer were also Scions then you'd think he'd also associate them as his children as well but he never once made any reference to them or showed any sign that he cared for them.. it's far more likely he saw them as little more than tools, much like common branded.
    I expect the relationship between Elder Dragons and these types of Champions have far more in common with Summoners and Elementals/Minions or Mursaat and Jade Constructs rather than parent and child.

    So where am I going with this? Well, what if the Elder Dragons can reproduce, but not in the manners with which we are familiar? What if they reproduce by cloning? That would certainly make Mordremoth's behavior during Heart of Thorns easier to understand. As you may all recall, Aurene sends the PC a vision of Mordremoth cloning significant members of the Pact. That vision establishes that at least one of the Elder's reproduces simply by cloning. But what if Mordremoth isn't the only Elder doing so? What if, ultimately, most of the Elder Dragons that we've encountered do use cloning, but they do so with varying levels of efficiency, such that their scions don't always resemble them, or only inherit some of their characteristics? Thus, Drakkar is Jormag's "clone", but looks sufficiently dissimilar that mortals comparing the two wouldn't consider them to be related unless informed of as much by either Drakkar or Jormag.

    I think the cloning thing was just a representation of how blighting trees work.

    Living bodies are placed inside a Mordrem Pod to create Mordrem versions of entities placed inside, while dead bodies are placed within Blighting Pods for the same purpose. Blighting Trees are capable of creating physically perfect clones of the individuals placed in pods, though made of plant instead. Living individuals placed in pods with strong personalities are known to leave remnants of such in their Mordrem clones.

    I don't think any Elder Dragon or Elder Dragon Champion have the ability to clone oneself as you suggest.
    The Closest we've seen to this kind of ability is Mordremoths ability to survive the destruction of it's physical body and mind by implanting a seed inside Trahearne's mind which would later allow him to reclaim all that he had lost had we not destroyed it along with Trahearne.
    Whether Mordremoth would have been able to grow a new physical dragon body from Trahearne or revive his old one though is unknown and he never got the chance anyway.

    One other factor that birthed this theory too is Aurine.
    With this whole narrative that we can't kill Elder Dragons without replacements it would be a pretty lame cop-out if we just ended up with.. Aurines all grown up now, she can just make more Scions to replace the other Elder Dragons... it's as bad a narrative as Aurine being able to replace them all imo.
    It would basically boil the whole plot down to "Hooray Aurine is our we win button"

    I don't know about the rest of you, but Jormag's vision seems to place the theme of reproduction under the spotlight. Jormag states that it's audience doesn't "fear death", but the day that their " children will no longer feel the chill of the frost or the warmth of the flame". Who is Jormag addressing? Some think that it was Bangar, but my feeling is that it's actually Aurene. It probably doesn't matter either way, though. The point is that Jormag is familiar with the concept of reproduction.

    I'd say It's addressing mortals in general.. not fearing death but the day their children no longer feel the chill of frost and warmth of flame to me comes accross as mortals fearing their children will succumb to Jormag and be corrupted and that death would be a far better alternative hence their lack of fear of it.
    It's kind of a irrelevant statement though as Jormag possess the Death Spectrum from Zhaitan so in theory it can corrupt the dead if it chooses to do so.. much like Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik did.

    I believe that Jormag is Kralk's mother. But if Elder Dragon's reproduce by inefficiently cloning themselves; by "molding" and "changing" their scions in a manner akin to a mortal like Malchor carving a statue, what if torment represents imperfections and inefficiencies in this process?

    Anyway, let's get to the substance of my thoughts. We don't know if Kralkatorrik shaped Glint, or if he fertilized a female dragon's egg. What if Glint's mother isn't Jormag, but Bubbles? The idea here would be that, during the previous dragon rise, the Deep Sea Dragon produced an orb, similar to the blue orb, but rather than losing it to the mortal races, as is the case in this rise, it was successfully delivered to Kralkatorrik, who proceeded to fertilize it in the hope of creating a new way for the Elder Dragons to breed? They would no longer take scions from the "stock" of existing living beings, or form them from the landscape, but take of themselves through meiosis rather than mitosis?

    But something went wrong. I don't have any thoughts on that yet.

    I highly doubt any Elder Dragon is related to another in that kind of way, from what we know of them they do not see each other as friends or allies.. they're more akin to rivals in the best case scenario or enemies in the worst case.
    They actively avoid each other that much we do know.

    We also know or at least can strongly specualate that all known Dragons in this universe are non-binery and reproduce without a mate as we've seen discussed in many of the Dragon gender topics on here.
    So there's very little chance two Elder Dragons got together at any time and made Scions together.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 12, 2020

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Crystalline Memories isn't our only source on Glint's memories. For instance, in Edge of Destiny she talks about her purpose having been to listen in on the thoughts of mortals. Now, there was certainly a degree of deception by not telling the whole truth there, but she seems to have a pretty good idea of what her function was before being purified by the Forgotten. Sure, we're told that her memory before than was fragmented (although if that particular recording was made shortly after the purification, it's possible that some of those memories returned over time) but, nevertheless, those fragments exist. It's not a complete amnesia, more like remembering parts of your early childhood.

    But her talking about listening to mortals sounds more like after her purification. Being given free will doesn't mean she would suddenly turn against Kralkatorrik. Her dialogue there also states that she protected Kralkatorrik while he slept, but the purification ritual is said to have happened during the dragonrise, not after. Which implies that she had spent some time with free will but serving Kralkatorrik anyways.

    Though it's a bit tricky since it's also said that she hid the dwarves, seers, Forgotten, and jotun from the Elder Dragons. Best guess would be, given her purification ritual happened in Orr where Zhaitan went to sleep, would be that Kralkatorrik went to sleep before the rest, resulting in an order of:

    1. Purification ritual
    2. Glint still served Kralkatorrik for a bit
    3. Kralkatorrik went to sleep(maybe 1?)
    4. Glint betrayed Kralkatorrik and hid the races, Zhaitan moved to Orr (formerly Kralk's territory) in search of magic
    5. Zhaitan fell asleep, starved

    But I'm not really arguing against her memory being fragmented. I agree that some pieces exist, and making the stance that the vision is one of those pieces.

    Ultimately, I think your theory has too many assumptions and holes to be regarded as the one certain truth.

    It really only has one assumption. That the vision predates his torment.

    Particularly given this series of lines:

    Kralkatorrik's Torment: THESE CREATURES MAKE YOU WEAK!
    Kralkatorrik: They are her strength.
    Kralkatorrik's Torment: SHE BETRAYS HER OWN KIND!
    Kralkatorrik: She is the first of her kind.

    Look at the first two lines in particular. Torment clearly disapproves of Aurene's alliance with mortals. If your hypothesis was correct, at this point I would expect Sane Kralkatorrik to demur without directly disagreeing, saying something like "I won't let you kill our granddaughter again". But Sane Kralkatorrik refutes Torment's claim head on: They are her strength. Sane Kralkatorrik agrees with Aurene allying with mortals. Meanwhile, Torment obviously doesn't. Every action taken to prevent the prophecy can, therefore, be attributed to Torment.

    Whatever motivations led Kralkatorrik to be "not good" in the past, either it wasn't the vision, or he has had a change of heart since (possibly when the Forgotten attempted to cleanse him). The sane Kralkatorrik we hear in the instance does not behave in a manner consistent with "I don't approve of this, but I'll let it happen because I don't want to hurt my cute little granddaughter!" He behaves in a manner that indicates that he approves of what Aurene (and, for that matter, the Commander) is trying to do.

    I would argue a third potential (though I do follow the theory that the Forgotten ritual allowed the division between Torment and his "sane" self - I hesitate greatly to call it sane though), being that he recognizes why Aurene isn't afflicted by Torment.

    I've mentioned it before in recent discussions, but in Scion & Champion instance, Glint's message says this:

    Glint: Good. Power has many uses, Scion. By choosing to share it and heal wounds, you strengthen your bond with mortals.
    Glint: Remember that bond. As the power grows, so will the dangers. And the temptations.
    Glint: More powerful still, and more dangerous...
    Glint: Well done. When Elder Dragons gorge on magic with abandon, the world falls out of balance. We have no choice but to act.
    Glint: To use power responsibly is to know when and how to share it—and when not to use it at all. Now continue to the next trial.

    If Glint could figure out that a bond with mortal can lessen the burden of magic and how addictive and painful it can be, then no doubt so could Kralkatorrik, especially after having multiple fights with her.

    It isn't that Kralkatorrik would be giving up his hatred of mortals in this scenario, nor would it be that he had a change of heart (the devs pretty much said otherwise in the Guild Chat iirc), but rather that he merely acknowledges a simple fact: by bonding with mortals, Aurene is in a different situation than he could ever be.

    What is also interesting, for the context of this discussion, is that even Torment has a concept of "own kind". Which I think also provides an explanation for Glaust having been looked after until her cleansing and subsequent betrayal - Torment views Aurene and Glint as part of its own kind, in a manner that it wouldn't for some random Branded lizard or devourer.

    I wouldn't be so sure there - the Torment's words would still work if "own kind" meant "what belongs to Kralkatorrik" aka the branded. By being a child of Glint, who was branded, Aurene would too be a branded in a manner of speaking. But by betraying Kralkatorrik and all branded, they betray "their own kind". Not kind as in species, but kind as in allegiance/servitude.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    I don't know about the rest of you, but Jormag's vision seems to place the theme of reproduction under the spotlight. Jormag states that it's audience doesn't "fear death", but the day that their " children will no longer feel the chill of the frost or the warmth of the flame". Who is Jormag addressing? Some think that it was Bangar, but my feeling is that it's actually Aurene. It probably doesn't matter either way, though. The point is that Jormag is familiar with the concept of reproduction.

    Jormag is telling us that death and diversity is the real enemy and they can save us from from both. The dead Kodan can't feel the ice or fire of their coffin. The differences between Centaur and Human fuel their conflict. Jormag is offering to shelter us from death and conflict by turning everyone into Icebrood. That could loosely be described as their desire to be everyone's parent, but I think that desire is a cover for the basic Elder dragon motivation to turn everything into a version of their magic sphere.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 12, 2020

    All lifeforms attempt to increase their hierarchical position. Life doesn't settle for just being matter and energy. If the Elder dragons began as mortal beings then they won't ever need a complex reason to seek power. Indeed, their appetite for power makes more sense if it functions according to primal nature logic. To me, the current Elder dragon cycle looks like the remains of species of antisocial or highly competitive beings that achieved Elder status. They became entangled with a cosmic Magic structure that pumps addictive magic through them. High dragons could start off as kitten eating gluttons, be made worse by the All, until a tiny, anti-crazed glutton, sliver of mind emerges.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    I don't know about the rest of you, but Jormag's vision seems to place the theme of reproduction under the spotlight. Jormag states that it's audience doesn't "fear death", but the day that their " children will no longer feel the chill of the frost or the warmth of the flame". Who is Jormag addressing? Some think that it was Bangar, but my feeling is that it's actually Aurene. It probably doesn't matter either way, though. The point is that Jormag is familiar with the concept of reproduction.

    Jormag is telling us that death and diversity is the real enemy and they can save us from from both. The dead Kodan can't feel the ice or fire of their coffin. The differences between Centaur and Human fuel their conflict. Jormag is offering to shelter us from death and conflict by turning everyone into Icebrood. That could loosely be described as their desire to be everyone's parent, but I think that desire is a cover for the basic Elder dragon motivation to turn everything into a version of their magic sphere.

    That does make a lot of sense. I never really thought of it that way.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 13, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    Who is Jormag addressing? Some think that it was Bangar, but my feeling is that it's actually Aurene. It probably doesn't matter either way, though. The point is that Jormag is familiar with the concept of reproduction.

    It was outright confirmed by ANet devs to be addressing Bangar.

    I believe that you're relying on a comment made by Chelsea (?) on Reddit? The trouble with the idea that Bangar has been talking to Jormag is that, well, Bangar behaves as though Jormag doesn't have any interest in him. For example:

    1) Bangar kills Almorra Soulkeeper, just moments after she has broken free of her original captors. Why would Jormag tell the Sons of Svanir that it wants to talk to Almorra in peace, only to send someone to kill her? Why not just command the Sons to kill her once they captured her? If Bangar and Jormag are already in league, wouldn't Jormag instruct Bangar to preserve her, even if that meant that he would have to restrain her for the time being?

    2) Bangar tries to kill the Commander, even as Jormag tells the Commander that it'll talk to them again "soon". If Bangar is in league with Jormag, why would he try to kill the Commander even as Jormag's will appears to ignore Bangar, like he's irrelevant? Shouldn't Jormag at least tell Bangar, in that very instance, to stand down? Shouldn't Jormag say that the Commander is useful and instruct Bangar to leave them unharmed, just as it instructed the Sons to leave Almorra unmolested?

    3) Bangar seems to be trying to get Jormag's attention. Bangar states that he is "Jormag's champion now". That doesn't mean that Jormag actually agrees. And why does Bangar say now? That implies that Jormag had a champion prior. Maybe it was the fraenir? The fraenir looks like he's been pretty well possessed by Jormag, going so far as to praise the dragon. Bangar shows no such loyalty. How can Jormag work with someone like Bangar when so much of the whispers and the behavior of those affected by them relates to betrayal? I'd say Jormag hates traitors, Bangar included.

    4) Although Aurene states that Jormag has left both the Commander and Bangar alive, she then tells the Commander that Jormag has spoken to them "at length" . She makes no mention of Jormag speaking to Bangar. Why not? Because Jormag probably hasn't provided Bangar with anything more than the whispers it provides everyone else.

    All of this leads me to think that, although Chelsea wrote something on Reddit and a few have taken it as gospel, the vision with which we are presented has nothing to do with Bangar and everything to do with Aurene and/or the Commander. Jormag addresses the Commander as "Champion" and has never revoked the title. No objective evidence has ever emerged that it has said the same of Bangar. (By objective evidence, I mean evidence that can be independently verified by an ear or eye witness to a conversation.) Let's go back to the vision, for a moment.

    The vision, aka the Icebrood Saga announcement trailer, has Jormag addressing a "Champion" whilst it presents us with a picture of Tyria, essentially stating that it isn't the enemy. The vision doesn't appear to settle upon any particular race, displaying charr, kodan, centaurs, humans, norn, indicating that there is no way to infer who it is addressed to based on the races presented. The only way to infer who it is addressed to is to consider Jormag's statement that the "Champion" has nothing to fear from it. And the only character that it has directly referred to as "Champion" is the Commander, not Bangar.

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    I believe that Jormag is Kralk's mother.

    This seems fairly unlikely to me. I kind of feel like Jormag is being presented as a younger kind of dragon, plus Jormag identifies itself as non-binary - neither male nor female - yet Kralkatorrik's parent clearly identifies itself as female.

    So far, we have no evidence of pairings for reproduction (which makes me disagree with any notion of dual-parentage), and the Elder Dragons as a group have been labeled "genderless" and "non-binary" for the past 10 years, so it seems to me that any gender applied to Elder Dragons are merely a choice on their part - so Kralkatorrik's mother, whomever that may be, would no doubt be identifying as female.

    This comes across as special pleading. Glint identifies Kralkatorrik as male. Aurene identifies Kralkatorrik as male. Kralkatorrik identifies Aurene as female, then appeals to his mother. The sum of what I've just related isn't evidence that the Elder Dragons are genderless, but that they can be gendered. To treat Tom Abernathy's tweet that "Jormag is non-binary" as gospel is probably a mistake. If anything, I would say that Tom was trying to shake us out of our reverie that Elder Dragons are genderless its.

    I think that you need to shift your position and accept that the evidence doesn't favor the idea that Elder Dragons are genderless.

    On an aside: The fact that Elder Dragons are labeled as "genderless" does give credence to the "cloning" concept of reproduction. However, given that Glint is drastically different from Kralkatorrik, and Vlast and Aurene moreso, it's clear that this isn't exactly the case. If we just focus on appearance, based on Aurene then the Elder Dragons' kin's appearances are very much determined by the magic they obtain / are hatched from. Aurene has a heavy resemblance to Mordremoth in her infant and adolescent appearances, which was the primary magic she had grown from. Her tail always resembled Kralkatorrik's tail quite a bit though, which would give to her crystal heritage, meanwhile Vlast's crystals were gold much like the Exalted - perhaps hinting that he had feasted off of some Exalted/Forgotten magic (his memory crystals do mention that he on occasion "snapped" at them...).

    That's a remarkable insight. Kudos to you there, Konig.

    The notion of "magic shaping the high dragon lineages" gives a bit of credence to the theory that Drakkar may have been Jormag's scion, as it was shaped by the magic it obtained from the Elder Dragons' death. Shame that it died though, as its potential roles is ruined.

    High dragons? I believe that is your terminology for "lesser dragons"?

    But overall, I'd call this less "cloning" and more of asexual reproduction through magic, both in nutrition and material to shape the body. It is often said that the Elder Dragons are "more magical than physical" so it makes sense that magic would literally define their appearance.

    I see the two processes as similar enough to be the same.

    If I were to toss out the notion of asexual reproduction among high dragons, then I would definitely argue for Primordus being the momma dragon. Both because of appearance, and the form of Kralkatorrik's and Primordus' actions. Both are the only Elder Dragons who's sole goal is "consume and destroy", though Primordus focuses more on the destroy (specifically: kill) than Kralkatorrik, where Zhaitan has "kingdom of eternal life through undeath" and Jormag has "ice fortifies, ice protect" and Mordremoth has "I am this world", where killing and corrupting is a means to an end, Primordus and Kralkatorrik are "wipe out all life" mentalities with killing and corrupting being the ends themselves. At least, their goals / ends and means while influenced by magical torment.

    You've lost me here. I think this part of the discussion comes down to opinion.

    As to whether Jormag is Kralk's mother? Well, the story flows smoothly if we assume as much. Kralkatorrik seems to appeal to his mother as he passes and the only Elder Dragon seen to be doing anything productive at the moment is Jormag. Moreover, Jormag openly states that the Commander "fears [it] as you feared Kralkatorrik". Why even mention Kralkatorrik at all? Why not say: "You fear me as you fear all of us"?

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    But her talking about listening to mortals sounds more like after her purification. Being given free will doesn't mean she would suddenly turn against Kralkatorrik. Her dialogue there also states that she protected Kralkatorrik while he slept, but the purification ritual is said to have happened during the dragonrise, not after. Which implies that she had spent some time with free will but serving Kralkatorrik anyways.

    Though it's a bit tricky since it's also said that she hid the dwarves, seers, Forgotten, and jotun from the Elder Dragons. Best guess would be, given her purification ritual happened in Orr where Zhaitan went to sleep, would be that Kralkatorrik went to sleep before the rest, resulting in an order of:

    1. Purification ritual
    2. Glint still served Kralkatorrik for a bit
    3. Kralkatorrik went to sleep(maybe 1?)
    4. Glint betrayed Kralkatorrik and hid the races, Zhaitan moved to Orr (formerly Kralk's territory) in search of magic
    5. Zhaitan fell asleep, starved

    But I'm not really arguing against her memory being fragmented. I agree that some pieces exist, and making the stance that the vision is one of those pieces.

    >
    Personally, I've always just assumed that the "protected him while he slept" just means that she was around for more than one Dragonrise. This doesn't mean that she's been around since the very first cycle, though.

    Ultimately, I think your theory has too many assumptions and holes to be regarded as the one certain truth.

    It really only has one assumption. That the vision predates his torment.

    A large part of your argument is based on the assertion that Kralkatorrik's original motive 1) can't simply be power for its own sake (a common enough motivation in the Guild Wars world) and 2) must be something that's relevant to the present day, as opposed to some motivation that was relevant to sane Kralkatorrik back before he participated in his first cycle but which is now lost to the mists of time.

    Call them assumptions, call them holes in the logic... we don't have solid evidence of either of those. Possible? Yes. The only possible interpretation? Not at all.

    Particularly given this series of lines:

    Kralkatorrik's Torment: THESE CREATURES MAKE YOU WEAK!
    Kralkatorrik: They are her strength.
    Kralkatorrik's Torment: SHE BETRAYS HER OWN KIND!
    Kralkatorrik: She is the first of her kind.

    Look at the first two lines in particular. Torment clearly disapproves of Aurene's alliance with mortals. If your hypothesis was correct, at this point I would expect Sane Kralkatorrik to demur without directly disagreeing, saying something like "I won't let you kill our granddaughter again". But Sane Kralkatorrik refutes Torment's claim head on: They are her strength. Sane Kralkatorrik agrees with Aurene allying with mortals. Meanwhile, Torment obviously doesn't. Every action taken to prevent the prophecy can, therefore, be attributed to Torment.

    Whatever motivations led Kralkatorrik to be "not good" in the past, either it wasn't the vision, or he has had a change of heart since (possibly when the Forgotten attempted to cleanse him). The sane Kralkatorrik we hear in the instance does not behave in a manner consistent with "I don't approve of this, but I'll let it happen because I don't want to hurt my cute little granddaughter!" He behaves in a manner that indicates that he approves of what Aurene (and, for that matter, the Commander) is trying to do.

    I would argue a third potential (though I do follow the theory that the Forgotten ritual allowed the division between Torment and his "sane" self - I hesitate greatly to call it sane though), being that he recognizes why Aurene isn't afflicted by Torment.

    I've mentioned it before in recent discussions, but in Scion & Champion instance, Glint's message says this:

    Glint: Good. Power has many uses, Scion. By choosing to share it and heal wounds, you strengthen your bond with mortals.
    Glint: Remember that bond. As the power grows, so will the dangers. And the temptations.
    Glint: More powerful still, and more dangerous...
    Glint: Well done. When Elder Dragons gorge on magic with abandon, the world falls out of balance. We have no choice but to act.
    Glint: To use power responsibly is to know when and how to share it—and when not to use it at all. Now continue to the next trial.

    If Glint could figure out that a bond with mortal can lessen the burden of magic and how addictive and painful it can be, then no doubt so could Kralkatorrik, especially after having multiple fights with her.

    It isn't that Kralkatorrik would be giving up his hatred of mortals in this scenario, nor would it be that he had a change of heart (the devs pretty much said otherwise in the Guild Chat iirc), but rather that he merely acknowledges a simple fact: by bonding with mortals, Aurene is in a different situation than he could ever be.

    This, honestly, feels like a change of heart to me, which the devs explicitly said he didn't have. He hated the idea of the vision, but accepted it when he realised it would make his granddaughter stronger (or at least saner) than he was? That sounds like a change of heart to me.

    Furthermore, while Sane Kralkatorrik doesn't talk directly to the PC much, when he does, he does so with respect. Sure, that could be specifically because of the link with Aurene, or maybe he has a "be polite even to people you hate" attitude, but... well, we could go over each line with a fine-toothed comb and explain it away, but the overall feel of the instance is that Sane Kralkatorrik genuinely and wholeheartedly approves of what Aurene is doing. There's no undertone of "I hate this but I love my granddaughter more".

    Ultimately, there's going to need to be a lot more evidence in favour of your hypothesis before I'd even be willing to consider it balance-of-probabilities more likely than alternative hypotheses, let alone something that can be stated as fact.

    What is also interesting, for the context of this discussion, is that even Torment has a concept of "own kind". Which I think also provides an explanation for Glaust having been looked after until her cleansing and subsequent betrayal - Torment views Aurene and Glint as part of its own kind, in a manner that it wouldn't for some random Branded lizard or devourer.

    I wouldn't be so sure there - the Torment's words would still work if "own kind" meant "what belongs to Kralkatorrik" aka the branded. By being a child of Glint, who was branded, Aurene would too be a branded in a manner of speaking. But by betraying Kralkatorrik and all branded, they betray "their own kind". Not kind as in species, but kind as in allegiance/servitude.

    It's another possible interpretation, sure, but it nevertheless provides a reason for the Torment personality to care about Glaust... at least until the Torment personality became aware of her defection to the other side.

    Sure, you can explain away every bit of conflicting evidence... but look over the whole set of evidence and be honest. Can you really say that your hypothesis is the only possible interpretation?

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    I believe that you're relying on a comment made by Chelsea (?) on Reddit? The trouble with the idea that Bangar has been talking to Jormag is that, well, Bangar behaves as though Jormag doesn't have any interest in him. For example:

    1) Bangar kills Almorra Soulkeeper, just moments after she has broken free of her original captors. Why would Jormag tell the Sons of Svanir that it wants to talk to Almorra in peace, only to send someone to kill her? Why not just command the Sons to kill her once they captured her? If Bangar and Jormag are already in league, wouldn't Jormag instruct Bangar to preserve her, even if that meant that he would have to restrain her for the time being?

    2) Bangar tries to kill the Commander, even as Jormag tells the Commander that it'll talk to them again "soon". If Bangar is in league with Jormag, why would he try to kill the Commander even as Jormag's will appears to ignore Bangar, like he's irrelevant? Shouldn't Jormag at least tell Bangar, in that very instance, to stand down? Shouldn't Jormag say that the Commander is useful and instruct Bangar to leave them unharmed, just as it instructed the Sons to leave Almorra unmolested?

    3) Bangar seems to be trying to get Jormag's attention. Bangar states that he is "Jormag's champion now". That doesn't mean that Jormag actually agrees. And why does Bangar say now? That implies that Jormag had a champion prior. Maybe it was the fraenir? The fraenir looks like he's been pretty well possessed by Jormag, going so far as to praise the dragon. Bangar shows no such loyalty. How can Jormag work with someone like Bangar when so much of the whispers and the behavior of those affected by them relates to betrayal? I'd say Jormag hates traitors, Bangar included.

    4) Although Aurene states that Jormag has left both the Commander and Bangar alive, she then tells the Commander that Jormag has spoken to them "at length" . She makes no mention of Jormag speaking to Bangar. Why not? Because Jormag probably hasn't provided Bangar with anything more than the whispers it provides everyone else.

    All of this leads me to think that, although Chelsea wrote something on Reddit and a few have taken it as gospel, the vision with which we are presented has nothing to do with Bangar and everything to do with Aurene and/or the Commander. Jormag addresses the Commander as "Champion" and has never revoked the title. No objective evidence has ever emerged that it has said the same of Bangar. (By objective evidence, I mean evidence that can be independently verified by an ear or eye witness to a conversation.) Let's go back to the vision, for a moment.

    The vision, aka the Icebrood Saga announcement trailer, has Jormag addressing a "Champion" whilst it presents us with a picture of Tyria, essentially stating that it isn't the enemy. The vision doesn't appear to settle upon any particular race, displaying charr, kodan, centaurs, humans, norn, indicating that there is no way to infer who it is addressed to based on the races presented. The only way to infer who it is addressed to is to consider Jormag's statement that the "Champion" has nothing to fear from it. And the only character that it has directly referred to as "Champion" is the Commander, not Bangar.

    While you make valid points, I think there is an explanation for all of this:

    Namely, Jormag is playing the field. He/she/they/whatever does not, at this stage, know who's going to fall and who isn't, or who would be the most desirable champion in the end. So Jormag's working on everybody, and not burning bridges unless in a situation where that is absolutely necessary. Bangar could be Jormag's primary focus as the most attractive combination of strength and suggestibility, but if Jormag can manage to get the Commander or the leader of the Vigil, then that's a major score.

    So, working through the various points:

    1) Jormag allows Bangar to kill Almorra because, at that point, Jormag doesn't have complete control over Bangar but considers him to be the better bet. Almorra has just shown that she rejects the idea of working with Jormag to the point that she'd fight Bangar over it, and Almorra then lost (technically to Ryland rather than Bangar, but still). So Almorra has shown herself to be less likely to turn and less valuable even if she did than Bangar. Preserving Almorra on the slim chance she could be turned wasn't worth the risk of demonstrating to Bangar who would really be in charge of their 'partnership'.

    2) Can we be so sure that Jormag wasn't responsible for Bangar's 'poor aim'? Made for a pretty effective way of ending the conversation before anyone had the chance to persuade Bangar or Ryland that what they were doing was wrong. Even if the shot was intended to be lethal, though, it's another case of playing both sides. The opportunity to take the Commander out is one worth taking, but the context is one where the attempt wasn't made by Jormag directly, and so Jormag still has the opportunity to attempt to corrupt the Commander later. Killing the Commander then and there was a potential big win for Jormag, but continuing to attempt to influence the Commander means that if the Commander does survive, there's still the potential for an even bigger win later.

    3) I think the actual champion that was supposedly being replaced was Drakkar, although you're right that Jormag might not agree (although Jormag does seem to think losing a champion or two to be a reasonable sacrifice to potentially gain those that are capable of defeating those champions). However, Jormag's entire strategy with Bangar seems to be to let Bangar think that he can be the one in charge of the partnership, until Bangar is in too deep to back out.

    4) Elder Dragons aren't omniscient. Aurene probably has a good idea about what's going on with the Commander due to their connection, but unless she's inherited Glint's universal long-range mind-reading ability (and I don't think there's evidence that she has?) there's no reason to think she has any special insight into what's going on with Jormag and Bangar specifically.

    That Jormag is still keeping Bangar on a slack leash suggests that whatever their relationship is, Bangar isn't so deep yet that he can't back out again if Jormag overplays their hand. However, none of the points exclude the possibility that Jormag is working on Bangar, it's just that Jormag is willing to work on others as well when doing so doesn't put Jormag's efforts to turn Bangar in jeopardy.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    I believe that you're relying on a comment made by Chelsea (?) on Reddit? The trouble with the idea that Bangar has been talking to Jormag is that, well, Bangar behaves as though Jormag doesn't have any interest in him. For example:

    -snip examples-

    I think the major issue with your argument is:
    1) You're assuming that just by hearing the whispers, Bangar is suddenly in league with Jormag.
    2) You're assuming that Bangar knows the message came from Jormag.
    3) You're also assuming that the trailer message occurs before the events of Icebrood Saga.

    Whether it's one or all, it's pretty evident in Steel and Fire that Bangar is not following Jormag - or if he is, he's hiding it very well. In Forging Steel, we see Icebrood creating a blizzard to force Bangar's forces through a detour. Now there's multiple interpretations I can take from this fact:
    1. Jormag wanted to use Ryland to wipe out Primordus' nearby minions.
    2. Jormag needed to create a reason for Bangar to intersect with Almorra (to counter your example 1 here: given the events of Whisper in the Dark, Jormag would have only wanted to kill Almorra since she escaped - her escape would have changed Jormag's intent, from "remove the communication device so she can't call the Commander while I speak in peace" to "kill her so she cannot call the Commander before I'm ready" - note that this does not mean Bangar is in league with Jormag, but rather that Jormag is manipulating Bangar).
    3. Jormag doesn't want Bangar to approach as well as the Commander without it being ready for them.

    3) Bangar seems to be trying to get Jormag's attention. Bangar states that he is "Jormag's champion now". That doesn't mean that Jormag actually agrees. And why does Bangar say now? That implies that Jormag had a champion prior. Maybe it was the fraenir? The fraenir looks like he's been pretty well possessed by Jormag, going so far as to praise the dragon. Bangar shows no such loyalty. How can Jormag work with someone like Bangar when so much of the whispers and the behavior of those affected by them relates to betrayal? I'd say Jormag hates traitors, Bangar included.

    Alternatively, Jormag could have given Bangar a "qualification test" for him to prove his worth. It was long established in the core game that Jormag ultimately doesn't care about the Icebrood - the Sons of Svanir hunt them to prove their worth and gain Jormag's blessings all the time. Similarly, Jormag's forces lets go those who prove their worth in strength frequently too (such as Jora, or the Commander via the Frozen Portal in Drakkar Spurs).

    This comes across as special pleading. Glint identifies Kralkatorrik as male. Aurene identifies Kralkatorrik as male. Kralkatorrik identifies Aurene as female, then appeals to his mother. The sum of what I've just related isn't evidence that the Elder Dragons are genderless, but that they can be gendered. To treat Tom Abernathy's tweet that "Jormag is non-binary" as gospel is probably a mistake. If anything, I would say that Tom was trying to shake us out of our reverie that Elder Dragons are genderless its.

    I think that you need to shift your position and accept that the evidence doesn't favor the idea that Elder Dragons are genderless.

    I think you're mistaking the notion of biological sex with the notion of social gender.

    The crystal dragon family very much identify as male or female social gender, but show no signs of mating partners nor actually being of a binary sex species.

    When I say "the Elder Dragons are genderless", I am referring to their biological sex. That they're an asexual (aka one sex) species. However, they very much can and do identify as specific social genders.

    That said, if we ever do get evidence to even suggest the existence of a mate for Glint or Kralkatorrik, then I would suggest that the crystal dragons alone would be binary sexes while the other five Elder Dragons are still likely mono-sexed. Unless, again, we have evidence to suggest otherwise.

    But it must be stressed that identifying as a male gender does not prevent one from being capable of laying an egg and having it hatched by a burst of magic from potentially any source.

    High dragons? I believe that is your terminology for "lesser dragons"?

    The inverse. "Lesser dragons" is a term that ANet had used in their Guild Chat covering the Skyscale pre-War Eternal launch to label "dragons who cannot ascend to being an Elder Dragon" like wyverns, skyscales, and hydras. Drakes also would be included, as lore from ranger pets establish wyverns and drakes as "cousin species".

    "High dragons" is my personal terminology for dragons who are, or are capable of becoming, Elder Dragons.

    But overall, I'd call this less "cloning" and more of asexual reproduction through magic, both in nutrition and material to shape the body. It is often said that the Elder Dragons are "more magical than physical" so it makes sense that magic would literally define their appearance.

    I see the two processes as similar enough to be the same.

    The term cloning implies that the end result would have the same appearance, and would not require magic. So considering them the same would no doubt be confusing to just about everyone else.

    If I were to toss out the notion of asexual reproduction among high dragons, then I would definitely argue for Primordus being the momma dragon. Both because of appearance, and the form of Kralkatorrik's and Primordus' actions. Both are the only Elder Dragons who's sole goal is "consume and destroy", though Primordus focuses more on the destroy (specifically: kill) than Kralkatorrik, where Zhaitan has "kingdom of eternal life through undeath" and Jormag has "ice fortifies, ice protect" and Mordremoth has "I am this world", where killing and corrupting is a means to an end, Primordus and Kralkatorrik are "wipe out all life" mentalities with killing and corrupting being the ends themselves. At least, their goals / ends and means while influenced by magical torment.

    You've lost me here. I think this part of the discussion comes down to opinion.

    It was just rambling, ultimately, and postering a relation based on GW1 appearances which are heavily subject to change, as proven by Drakkar.

    As to whether Jormag is Kralk's mother? Well, the story flows smoothly if we assume as much. Kralkatorrik seems to appeal to his mother as he passes and the only Elder Dragon seen to be doing anything productive at the moment is Jormag. Moreover, Jormag openly states that the Commander "fears [it] as you feared Kralkatorrik". Why even mention Kralkatorrik at all? Why not say: "You fear me as you fear all of us"?

    I would disagree. Tom Abernathy in the Guild Chat 85 did state that they were "seeding for the far future". Stuff that wouldn't play out for years. It seems unlikely that Kralkatorrik's mother would come into play literally immediately after the mention of her existence, and reveal to have been around all along.

    As for why mention Kralkatorrik - two reasons:
    1. It's the most recently fought, and most fear-inducing Elder Dragons to date.
    2. Because Jormag has a heavy interest in Aurene, who replaced Kralkatorrik.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Personally, I've always just assumed that the "protected him while he slept" just means that she was around for more than one Dragonrise. This doesn't mean that she's been around since the very first cycle, though.

    The order of dialogue in the novel suggests to me that she was defending Kralkatorrik in his sleep when she came to sympathize with mortals.

    A large part of your argument is based on the assertion that Kralkatorrik's original motive 1) can't simply be power for its own sake (a common enough motivation in the Guild Wars world) and 2) must be something that's relevant to the present day, as opposed to some motivation that was relevant to sane Kralkatorrik back before he participated in his first cycle but which is now lost to the mists of time.

    Call them assumptions, call them holes in the logic... we don't have solid evidence of either of those. Possible? Yes. The only possible interpretation? Not at all.

    I wouldn't call them either, really. The first one and the theory itself are by nature mutually exclusive - if his motivation was his vision, then it couldn't be power for its own sake, which is something that we have no evidence to suggest is there. I would argue that suggesting Kralkatorrik's original motive was "power for its own sake" itself is an assumption / theory, one which has as little if not less foundation than the notion of the vision being the original motive.

    For the second point, the vision is only relevant to the present day because ANet's narrative wanted to give us some extra motivation for our characters and, more specifically, for Kralkatorrik. The vision was literally placed to be Kralkatorrik's motivation. However, we know from both before and after the revelation of the vision that Kralkatorrik's modern motivation is just "consume and destroy [to end the pain]" and not the vision.

    Utilizing the rules of Checkov's Gun, that vision should have a purpose - but if it isn't Kralkatorrik's pre-Torment motivation, then what purpose did it have in the story? None. Kralkatorrik denies Glint's conclusion, that he feared his vision, so what purpose does the vision have?

    Unless we label the vision as poor amateur writing, then it has to have some purpose to the narrative. It didn't really serve any purpose for the PC and friend's motivation, since it literally did nothing to improve our standing besides a pep talk, so what other purpose can it have, besides being Kralkatorrik's original motivation that led him to being exposed to torment and causing the modern situation?

    Personally, I'd rather not chalk anything up to "it's just poor writing" because that's bland and boring for theorycrafting.

    This, honestly, feels like a change of heart to me, which the devs explicitly said he didn't have. He hated the idea of the vision, but accepted it when he realised it would make his granddaughter stronger (or at least saner) than he was? That sounds like a change of heart to me.

    Furthermore, while Sane Kralkatorrik doesn't talk directly to the PC much, when he does, he does so with respect. Sure, that could be specifically because of the link with Aurene, or maybe he has a "be polite even to people you hate" attitude, but... well, we could go over each line with a fine-toothed comb and explain it away, but the overall feel of the instance is that Sane Kralkatorrik genuinely and wholeheartedly approves of what Aurene is doing. There's no undertone of "I hate this but I love my granddaughter more".

    Ultimately, there's going to need to be a lot more evidence in favour of your hypothesis before I'd even be willing to consider it balance-of-probabilities more likely than alternative hypotheses, let alone something that can be stated as fact.

    I'm not saying he accepted the vision at any point though. The only thing he accepted, was that by bonding with mortals, Aurene became something he couldn't have because he would never accept or bond with mortals, thus was "her own kind".

    He didn't accept the vision - he accepted an end to his pain. These are two very different things.

    Besides, if Kralkatorrik didn't hate the vision, why would Glint think he feared it, when he didn't fear it?

    the overall feel of the instance is that Sane Kralkatorrik genuinely and wholeheartedly approves of what Aurene is doing.

    I would disagree. It felt more like his love for his family, and his desire to end the pain, and the closeness to death, overcame his hatred.

    Can you really say that your hypothesis is the only possible interpretation?

    Did I ever give the impression that I did?

    I NEVER think my theories are the only possible interpretation.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.