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I am not the Commander and I don't want to be

Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭

I'm sick and tired of being called Commander. It's not a title I'm find of, I don't command anything nor issue orders. I'm an adventurer and hero. I don't see why we need the player to be the Commander personally I wouldn't mind it if it was an actual defined npc, doesn't have to be any specific race honestly.

The way I see it, I prefer to look at my character as an adventurer and nothing more. A hero in the pool of many others. I sincerely hope they stop pushing harder effort into making everyone that level of important in the next expansion. I would absolutely love it if the Commander seriously kicks the bucket. The concept itself just doesn't fit well, and it feels like it's could be putting more stress on ANET as a whole. It should just be heroes of Tyria not Hero of Everything.

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Comments

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    We are not the Commander anymore but many in Tyria recognize us by the title.

    This is because of the personal story where we were the second in command, Commander of the Pact.
    When we give up that position others continued to call us Commander out of respect and habit, that's all.

    Not all characters refer to us as Commander though, Aurine refers to us as Champion instead and occasionally our order Rank is used by members of our chosen order.

    I wouldn't mind Canthans refering to us differently in the next expansion.
    Would be kinda cool for enemies too call us interloper! while friendlies call us the usual Commander.

    Well what I mean is, the Commander is way too important right now, and is more of a political figure and super hero. Too unstoppable, and I feel the new characters are an excellent approach towards a better direction into the commander's downfall. Someone has to put the Commander in check, and make the Commander realize that nobody's invincible. I feel that Jormag is capable of doing this perfectly, seeing that Mordremoth and Zhaitan barely put up a fight against the Commander, and To kill Kralkatorrik a little dragon was used, something has to be there to say "I'm better than the Commander".

  • I don't mind "Commander" so much becasue we get constant reminders that everything we do is a group effort. So it keeps from creating the impression that we are a solo god amongst mere mortals.

  • TheOrlyFactor.8341TheOrlyFactor.8341 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2020

    I eventually broke down and just made a Pact Commander character because a lot of the things the Commander has done are things my character(s) wouldn't do. I only use my Pact Commander character to get through the story and any Living World/story achievements before going back to my own characters.

    Asura fanatic.
    World's largest Zojja fan.
    You can't trust Charr. They belong to Bangar now.
    Make Dragon's Watch great again (by booting Rytlock out of it).
    The Kontract Krewe [RP]: Flailing around Tyria for gold and glory. Mostly gold though.

  • If I had my way I'd probably go with Taimi's suggestion and use "Pooh-bah"

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @thepenmonster.3621 said:
    This is why I always rename Link "Zelda"

    What blasphemy is this!!?

    Like all blasphemy: The best kind.

    The Commander will end you.

  • Diak Atoli.2085Diak Atoli.2085 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    We are not the Commander anymore but many in Tyria recognize us by the title.

    This is because of the personal story where we were the second in command, Commander of the Pact.
    When we give up that position others continued to call us Commander out of respect and habit, that's all.

    Military titles are for life, which is why we're still being called such post-Season 3. It's not really about habit or respect - it's their proper, official title. For life.

    The reasoning is not mutually exclusive, though. It can be out of habit and respect that you refer to someone by their official title, retired title, etc.

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭

    @cherrycola.3127 said:
    Yeah, I'm still sad the community complained so much and got Dragon's Watch to stop calling us "boss". I liked that much better, it made them sound like they actually feel like they're friends with the commander and are gently teasing them. Having them all call us "Commander" is weirdly formal and creates such uncomfortable distance.

    wait people complained about this?

  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @cherrycola.3127 said:
    Yeah, I'm still sad the community complained so much and got Dragon's Watch to stop calling us "boss". I liked that much better, it made them sound like they actually feel like they're friends with the commander and are gently teasing them. Having them all call us "Commander" is weirdly formal and creates such uncomfortable distance.

    wait people complained about this?

    Or course they did. People complain about pretty much anything. Every time some NPC dies, doesn't die, makes decisions, let's the PC decide, helps the PC, doesn't help the PC, calls the PC one way or another, recognizes the PC for their deeds or doesn't, is meant to be funny/serious/whatever, has character progress or stays more or less the same... There's bound to be someone complaining about it. Or actually any single thing ever done in the game, it would seem.

    Do not fear difficulty. Hard ground makes sore feet.
    All things...grow. And the blossom bothers the weed.
    Act with wisdom and axe.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2020

    Because ArenaNet can't make the story branches in different directions based on our decisions, I would prefer for the commander to be a NPC that we follow as his crew. It always feel weird to be both told we're in charge when we mostly follow what other NPC tell us to do.

  • Dustfinger.9510Dustfinger.9510 Member ✭✭
    edited April 9, 2020

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Because ArenaNet can't make the story branches in different directions based on our decisions, I would prefer for the commander to be a NPC that we follow as his crew. It always feel weird to be both told we're in charge when we mostly follow what other NPC tell us to do.

    Im okay with this. It tells us we are pretty high up, just not the highest up. It feels like a good balance. I'd rather not be a god amongst mortals and I understand people want to feel important in the story. This seems like a good balance. When we are always the top-most dog, we run into problems later on about why we didn't just easily slay the next big bad after having done it multiple times before. Then the writers have to keep making the next big bad exponentially bigger and badder than the last until it gets ridiculous.

    edit: (I know from your post that being the toppest dog is not what you're asking for. I'm like you, I'd rather be as small as possible becasue it makes the world as big as possible. but, a lot of people like to feel like they are important in their stories.)

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2020

    We've been called alot of things over the years, and during LS1-2 we were even just called "Boss".

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @cherrycola.3127 said:
    Yeah, I'm still sad the community complained so much and got Dragon's Watch to stop calling us "boss". I liked that much better, it made them sound like they actually feel like they're friends with the commander and are gently teasing them. Having them all call us "Commander" is weirdly formal and creates such uncomfortable distance.

    wait people complained about this?

    There was a long dry period for a few years during LS1 & 2, where story deviated from the Dragons, our Pact Commander role, etc. And there was massive backlash, with people just wanting it to return back to the main storyline, and it eventually did, with ArenaNet modifying the Scarlet storyline to lead into Modremoth, and for our group of friends to effectively become Destiny's Edge 2.0.

    Many people won't be familiar with this because they can only play the game that resulted after the changes. In fact "Dragon's Watch" didn't even know who we were or that we were part of the Pact, just some adventurer saving the day with them.

    It was one of those things that you either loved or hated.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay | Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest(PvE), Terakura/Spellbreaker & Kitty Koume/Reaper(WvW) | ♀♥♀

  • Dayra.7405Dayra.7405 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2020

    I think it's nice that we refused to be pact marschall. I think nowadays this "commander" is only a historic reference to the time where Traherne made us his special-force and deputy and gave us the title commander. And of course during HoT, we succesfully commanded the survivers of the pact-fleet to defeat Mordremor. So being called "commander" is just a nickname we got cought in.

    Last but not least, all these NPC's have problems pronouncing our name(s) correctly, so they prefer an easy pronouncable nickname :#

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Because ArenaNet can't make the story branches in different directions based on our decisions, I would prefer for the commander to be a NPC that we follow as his crew. It always feel weird to be both told we're in charge when we mostly follow what other NPC tell us to do.

    Im okay with this. It tells us we are pretty high up, just not the highest up. It feels like a good balance.

    that's literally the current situation. The Pact Commander isn't the highest - they're below the Marshal, and on par to dozens of others in ranking. And as of Season 3, it's a title and nothing more, we're not even in the military hierarchy anymore. We aren't the "topest dog" who is practically a god among mere mortals. All of the Commander's deeds are done through teamwork, either with other heroes or with a freakin' dragon.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Because ArenaNet can't make the story branches in different directions based on our decisions, I would prefer for the commander to be a NPC that we follow as his crew. It always feel weird to be both told we're in charge when we mostly follow what other NPC tell us to do.

    Im okay with this. It tells us we are pretty high up, just not the highest up. It feels like a good balance.

    that's literally the current situation. The Pact Commander isn't the highest - they're below the Marshal, and on par to dozens of others in ranking. And as of Season 3, it's a title and nothing more, we're not even in the military hierarchy anymore. We aren't the "topest dog" who is practically a god among mere mortals. All of the Commander's deeds are done through teamwork, either with other heroes or with a freakin' dragon.

    All except when we 1v1 Balthazar :(
    I would have preferred for him to have been injured a bit by Kralkatorrik before our arrival to justify our win.

  • @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Because ArenaNet can't make the story branches in different directions based on our decisions, I would prefer for the commander to be a NPC that we follow as his crew. It always feel weird to be both told we're in charge when we mostly follow what other NPC tell us to do.

    Im okay with this. It tells us we are pretty high up, just not the highest up. It feels like a good balance.

    that's literally the current situation. The Pact Commander isn't the highest - they're below the Marshal, and on par to dozens of others in ranking. And as of Season 3, it's a title and nothing more, we're not even in the military hierarchy anymore. We aren't the "topest dog" who is practically a god among mere mortals. All of the Commander's deeds are done through teamwork, either with other heroes or with a freakin' dragon.

    All except when we 1v1 Balthazar :(
    I would have preferred for him to have been injured a bit by Kralkatorrik before our arrival to justify our win.

    I don't think we would’ve finish him without Aurene.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Because ArenaNet can't make the story branches in different directions based on our decisions, I would prefer for the commander to be a NPC that we follow as his crew. It always feel weird to be both told we're in charge when we mostly follow what other NPC tell us to do.

    Im okay with this. It tells us we are pretty high up, just not the highest up. It feels like a good balance.

    that's literally the current situation. The Pact Commander isn't the highest - they're below the Marshal, and on par to dozens of others in ranking. And as of Season 3, it's a title and nothing more, we're not even in the military hierarchy anymore. We aren't the "topest dog" who is practically a god among mere mortals. All of the Commander's deeds are done through teamwork, either with other heroes or with a freakin' dragon.

    All except when we 1v1 Balthazar :(
    I would have preferred for him to have been injured a bit by Kralkatorrik before our arrival to justify our win.

    I don't think we would’ve finish him without Aurene.

    It's true that Aurene get a role in the fight end. I can hardly consider it relevant because she's not doing much. She's either chained, wandering, or enhancing our special button attack. She's entirely passive in the fight. I would consider her help if she also actually did something on her own and we would have to exploit the given opportunity. Having both her reacting and us reacting to her.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Because ArenaNet can't make the story branches in different directions based on our decisions, I would prefer for the commander to be a NPC that we follow as his crew. It always feel weird to be both told we're in charge when we mostly follow what other NPC tell us to do.

    Im okay with this. It tells us we are pretty high up, just not the highest up. It feels like a good balance.

    that's literally the current situation. The Pact Commander isn't the highest - they're below the Marshal, and on par to dozens of others in ranking. And as of Season 3, it's a title and nothing more, we're not even in the military hierarchy anymore. We aren't the "topest dog" who is practically a god among mere mortals. All of the Commander's deeds are done through teamwork, either with other heroes or with a freakin' dragon.

    All except when we 1v1 Balthazar :(
    I would have preferred for him to have been injured a bit by Kralkatorrik before our arrival to justify our win.

    We had a dragon help us in the final confrontation, and Sohothin being used to its real potential.

  • We can call you Outlander instead.

  • Moonyeti.3296Moonyeti.3296 Member ✭✭✭

    I like commander because it allows me to be one of many commanders. When playing alts, it even helps my "head canon", my other characters were also there helping out, or other players were the "other commanders"

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 19, 2020

    Military rank titles often still carry over after retirement even in real life but it is up to people if they wish to still address them by their military rank for their own reasons. Since our character last military title was Commander before retiring to become the leader of Dragon's Watch, we are still called Commander not just out of respect for what we did but also because it is our last known military rank in the Pact.

    We may not be official Commander of the pact anymore since the events of Zhaitan's defeat but by military standards we are still ranked commander even after retirement.

  • Kathkere.3068Kathkere.3068 Member ✭✭
    edited April 20, 2020

    @bluecheeseplate.2753 said:
    This is my issue with most MMOs I've played. Apparently I can defeat gods, quest for thousands of people and literally save the world four times, but people don't even acknowledge my existence. There's a massive disconnect there that doesn't sit well with me lore-wise, like I'm investing all this time for nothing. GW2 and BnS are the only two MMOs I've played that subverts this, and GW2 does a far better job of it. As the Commander, I actually feel like I'm not just along for the ride- my character's actions has an impact on the story, and are remembered for once.

    The problem isn't what the NPCs call you, the problem is that you save the world four times at all. You get into some sort of narrative power creep that eventually ceases to be interesting. You've saved the world four times over and you've defeated demigods and then you accidentally stumble off a cliff in Kessex Hills and die. Is that not also a narrative disconnect? Or what if you happened to get shanked by some no-name pirate? Of course, we don't take death into account when thinking about narrative. If we did, would it really be fair to say that you killed Belsebub the Destroyer of Worlds if Belsebub the Destroyer of Worlds killed you fourteen times over before you killed him?

    I'm rambling, but the point of my ramble is to poke fun at the notion of a linear narrative in an MMORPG space. In the absence of a pre-scripted narrative players starts to make their own narrative*. In my opinion, you shouldn't be so concerned about how NPCs addresses you. How do your fellow players address you? Back in 2007-2008 I played World of Warcraft and on my server there was a horde guild that was notorious for ganking people. They had a website where they posted bounties on alliance players they deemed troublesome, and these alliance players earned some fame on the server just because of that. Those players didn't need an NPC to tell them that they were heroes for they were heroes in the eyes of everyone who had fallen prey to that one ganking guild.

    Do we really need the narrative threat of an apocalypse in order to keep things interesting? That's just subtext to justify the violence we use to solve the conflict, but you can have subtext that doesn't revolve around the end of the world. Perhaps people ought to see themselves less as the main character and more as "one among many". Sure, you defeated Belsebub the Destroyer of Worlds, but what about the other individuals present, be they players or NPCs. Are they not also worthy of praise? No one mourns the loss of a redshirt, I guess.

    *Of course, players will probably create their own narrative even when presented with a pre-scripted narrative. The difference is that you have to suspend your disbelief, for the narrative that the game feeds you with is not truly _your_ narrative. Everyone gets the same narrative, and it might not be the narrative that you want. The original story of GW2 is all about good versus evil and it's more or less impossible to be evil. Does that really match the fantasy of the necromancer class?

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 20, 2020

    At the very least they could have Rox, or Braham or even Taimi be the main hero. The spotlight is burning the commanders forehead by now. Anyone from Dragon's Watch really has the power to be the main hero.

  • Taylan.2187Taylan.2187 Member ✭✭✭

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    Also, Elonians refered to us mostly as "the Outlander". It is quite possible that Canthans will have another title for us

    Canthans will refer to us as baka gaijin.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 21, 2020

    @Fjaeldmark.9043 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    At the very least they could have Rox, or Braham or even Taimi be the main hero. The spotlight is burning the commanders forehead by now. Anyone from Dragon's Watch really has the power to be the main hero.

    Remember when Trahearne outranked the player and people kept crying for him to die for stealing the player's spotlight so Anet killed him off? Lets not repeat that.

    My dislike for Trahearne doesn't come from him being the leader. It's also true for some of the people who wanted him to die.
    The main thing people hate on Trahearne is that he's been written as a messianic figure.
    The chosen one who got the magic sword and only him can save us by purifying the source of corruption.
    And then the Zhaitan fight is a glorified fireworks show.

    I never wanted for us to become the messianic figure. I hate it just as well.

  • Leo.3428Leo.3428 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kathkere.3068 said:
    (...) would it really be fair to say that you killed Belsebub the Destroyer of Worlds if Belsebub the Destroyer of Worlds killed you fourteen times over before you killed him?

    The Commander has the supreme power of rewriting history and silencing the rumors over his failures. The Commander is a disguised god learning to be a mere mortal. Few NPCs have seen through the trick - yet. One day, they will build temples to our glory and call us the Almighty [insert character name].

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Fjaeldmark.9043 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    At the very least they could have Rox, or Braham or even Taimi be the main hero. The spotlight is burning the commanders forehead by now. Anyone from Dragon's Watch really has the power to be the main hero.

    Remember when Trahearne outranked the player and people kept crying for him to die for stealing the player's spotlight so Anet killed him off? Lets not repeat that.

    My dislike for Trahearne doesn't come from him being the leader. It's also true for some of the people who wanted him to die.
    The main thing people hate on Trahearne is that he's been written as a messianic figure.
    The chosen one who got the magic sword and only him can save us by purifying the source of corruption.
    And then the Zhaitan fight is a glorified fireworks show.

    I never wanted for us to become the messianic figure. I hate it just as well.

    Actually, Trahearne was not really that much of a messianic figure. There was no prophecy, just a plan the Tree had. And the original plan even failed - Trahearne wasn't even supposed to be in that position, Riannoc was. Trahearne was just the backup. Even that glimpse of a possible future the Tree showed us in the vision of Orr in the end never actually happened that way. The storytelling throughout the Orr arc was awfully rushed, though, so it made little sense how he got to have this ritual ready in time. However, it was not magically handed to him (I guess), but the result of decades of work.

    The messianic and prophecy stuff got much, much worse later on with Aurene and the PC. Though the storytelling improved a lot over time, I still prefer the way "prophecies" were handled earlier: As very fragile optional futures that can easily change. Not something that gives us plot armour and has to be followed no matter what.
    And just when I thought we were finally done with prophecies, they make one up for Braham... :/ Can't we do anything in this story without a prophecy anymore?

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fenella.2634 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Fjaeldmark.9043 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    At the very least they could have Rox, or Braham or even Taimi be the main hero. The spotlight is burning the commanders forehead by now. Anyone from Dragon's Watch really has the power to be the main hero.

    Remember when Trahearne outranked the player and people kept crying for him to die for stealing the player's spotlight so Anet killed him off? Lets not repeat that.

    My dislike for Trahearne doesn't come from him being the leader. It's also true for some of the people who wanted him to die.
    The main thing people hate on Trahearne is that he's been written as a messianic figure.
    The chosen one who got the magic sword and only him can save us by purifying the source of corruption.
    And then the Zhaitan fight is a glorified fireworks show.

    I never wanted for us to become the messianic figure. I hate it just as well.

    Actually, Trahearne was not really that much of a messianic figure. There was no prophecy, just a plan the Tree had. And the original plan even failed - Trahearne wasn't even supposed to be in that position, Riannoc was. Trahearne was just the backup. Even that glimpse of a possible future the Tree showed us in the vision of Orr in the end never actually happened that way. The storytelling throughout the Orr arc was awfully rushed, though, so it made little sense how he got to have this ritual ready in time. However, it was not magically handed to him (I guess), but the result of decades of work.

    The messianic and prophecy stuff got much, much worse later on with Aurene and the PC. Though the storytelling improved a lot over time, I still prefer the way "prophecies" were handled earlier: As very fragile optional futures that can easily change. Not something that gives us plot armour and has to be followed no matter what.
    And just when I thought we were finally done with prophecies, they make one up for Braham... :/ Can't we do anything in this story without a prophecy anymore?

    It's an excuse to blatantly railroad the story and justify having no agency for your character.

  • I just consider the commander thing as someone else, or some intercession that my mind blots out.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Because ArenaNet can't make the story branches in different directions based on our decisions, I would prefer for the commander to be a NPC that we follow as his crew. It always feel weird to be both told we're in charge when we mostly follow what other NPC tell us to do.

    Im okay with this. It tells us we are pretty high up, just not the highest up. It feels like a good balance.

    that's literally the current situation. The Pact Commander isn't the highest - they're below the Marshal, and on par to dozens of others in ranking. And as of Season 3, it's a title and nothing more, we're not even in the military hierarchy anymore. We aren't the "topest dog" who is practically a god among mere mortals. All of the Commander's deeds are done through teamwork, either with other heroes or with a freakin' dragon.

    All except when we 1v1 Balthazar :(
    I would have preferred for him to have been injured a bit by Kralkatorrik before our arrival to justify our win.

    We had a dragon help us in the final confrontation, and Sohothin being used to its real potential.

    2 Dragons technically.
    Kralkatorrik also got involved in the battle though he fired at everyone not just Balth.

    We also had Sohothin too which despite personal use or not in the canon the Commander used it to kill Balthazar.

    So while we do get the credit for the kill we did have a lot of help in that fight from friend and foe alike.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kathkere.3068 said:
    Do we really need the narrative threat of an apocalypse in order to keep things interesting?

    Sure, otherwise my commander would be all.. "Eh not my problem, let someone else deal with it.. I other things to do"

    Gw2 was always setup as an apocalypse story, Evil dragons end of the world etc.
    You can't just wipe that mid way and say eh lets do something else.. wouldn't make any sense.
    Anet is trying to make things more interesting with Jormag and Kralkatorrik, filling in the personalities of these Dragons and making the plot more complex than just smash the big evil thing.
    They deserve some credit for that.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Because ArenaNet can't make the story branches in different directions based on our decisions, I would prefer for the commander to be a NPC that we follow as his crew. It always feel weird to be both told we're in charge when we mostly follow what other NPC tell us to do.

    Im okay with this. It tells us we are pretty high up, just not the highest up. It feels like a good balance.

    that's literally the current situation. The Pact Commander isn't the highest - they're below the Marshal, and on par to dozens of others in ranking. And as of Season 3, it's a title and nothing more, we're not even in the military hierarchy anymore. We aren't the "topest dog" who is practically a god among mere mortals. All of the Commander's deeds are done through teamwork, either with other heroes or with a freakin' dragon.

    All except when we 1v1 Balthazar :(
    I would have preferred for him to have been injured a bit by Kralkatorrik before our arrival to justify our win.

    We had a dragon help us in the final confrontation, and Sohothin being used to its real potential.

    2 Dragons technically.
    Kralkatorrik also got involved in the battle though he fired at everyone not just Balth.

    We also had Sohothin too which despite personal use or not in the canon the Commander used it to kill Balthazar.

    So while we do get the credit for the kill we did have a lot of help in that fight from friend and foe alike.

    I guess I didn't mention Kralk but yes, people forget how powerful Sohothin is supposed to be just because Rytlock doesn't know how to use its full potential. We get turned into a walking nuke for the mission.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:
    Gw2 was always setup as an apocalypse story, Evil dragons end of the world etc.
    You can't just wipe that mid way and say eh lets do something else.. wouldn't make any sense.

    But then you get into a loop of never ending apocalypses; the "narrative power creep" I mentioned. I think it's very much possible to "reset" the narrative. World of Warcraft did as much with their Mists of Pandaria expansion. You had just defeated Deathwing The Destroyer(TM) and what followed was a story about Horde and Alliance colonization in a mystical new land. I thought it was a very refreshing change of pace, although that expansion would derail a bit as well towards the end as well.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Because ArenaNet can't make the story branches in different directions based on our decisions, I would prefer for the commander to be a NPC that we follow as his crew. It always feel weird to be both told we're in charge when we mostly follow what other NPC tell us to do.

    Im okay with this. It tells us we are pretty high up, just not the highest up. It feels like a good balance.

    that's literally the current situation. The Pact Commander isn't the highest - they're below the Marshal, and on par to dozens of others in ranking. And as of Season 3, it's a title and nothing more, we're not even in the military hierarchy anymore. We aren't the "topest dog" who is practically a god among mere mortals. All of the Commander's deeds are done through teamwork, either with other heroes or with a freakin' dragon.

    All except when we 1v1 Balthazar :(
    I would have preferred for him to have been injured a bit by Kralkatorrik before our arrival to justify our win.

    We had a dragon help us in the final confrontation, and Sohothin being used to its real potential.

    2 Dragons technically.
    Kralkatorrik also got involved in the battle though he fired at everyone not just Balth.

    We also had Sohothin too which despite personal use or not in the canon the Commander used it to kill Balthazar.

    So while we do get the credit for the kill we did have a lot of help in that fight from friend and foe alike.

    I guess I didn't mention Kralk but yes, people forget how powerful Sohothin is supposed to be just because Rytlock doesn't know how to use its full potential. We get turned into a walking nuke for the mission.

    Yeah we did ha xD
    Was fun though.

    Sohothin is majorly powerful, It was one of Balthazars personal swords long ago.
    When Rytlock first obtained it too he became a vicious and feared enemy to the Flame Legion because of it, So I wouldn't say he doesn't know how to use it's full potential.. I think he's just chilled out somewhat over the years we've known him, Bangar hinted as much up during that cutscene where Rytlock kicks his ***
    "Look who's fangs finally came in" he says to Rytlock before egging him on to kill him and become imperator.
    It's pretty noticable too if you play the early story content in the game and compare Rytlock then to who he is now.. he's changed a lot since the start of Gw2.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kathkere.3068 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Gw2 was always setup as an apocalypse story, Evil dragons end of the world etc.
    You can't just wipe that mid way and say eh lets do something else.. wouldn't make any sense.

    But then you get into a loop of never ending apocalypses; the "narrative power creep" I mentioned. I think it's very much possible to "reset" the narrative. World of Warcraft did as much with their Mists of Pandaria expansion. You had just defeated Deathwing The Destroyer(TM) and what followed was a story about Horde and Alliance colonization in a mystical new land. I thought it was a very refreshing change of pace, although that expansion would derail a bit as well towards the end as well.

    Not really, the apocalypse threat has always been the same with the Dragons, Usually though we wait until a Dragon forces our hand to action.
    Zhaitan forced the formation of the pact and invasion into orr by progressing his territory into Kryta and raiding human settlements.
    Mordremoth forced priority by assaulting various targets around core Tyria and attacking the Waypoint Network.
    Kralkatorrik forced our hand again by hunting Aurine and branding his way through Elona, then invading the mists and casusing massive amounts of damage there.
    Now we're dealing with Jormag who again forced our attention with it's actions in the North.

    The only time we've ever gone after a Dragon/Dragons in a pre-emptive move was during living world 3 and that ended up getting botched after learning that killing them would have destroyed the world and done the one thing we were trying to avoid, and then Balthazar came in and force our attention on him instead.

    Elements may change as do villains but our players goal since joining an order has always been to stop the world ending threat.
    We havent achieved that goal at any time in Gw2.. we've just delayed it temporarily.
    I wouldn't call it a loop of apocalypse stories.. it's more like one very long one with some twists and turns thrown in.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The only time we've ever gone after a Dragon/Dragons in a pre-emptive move was during living world 3 and that ended up getting botched after learning that killing them would have destroyed the world and done the one thing we were trying to avoid, and then Balthazar came in and force our attention on him instead.

    Even that wasn't really pre-emptive. We only focused on Primordus and Jormag after learning they had become active again, as a result of Mordremoth's death. Kralkatorrik was still supposedly silent so we didn't focus on him at the time.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 24, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The only time we've ever gone after a Dragon/Dragons in a pre-emptive move was during living world 3 and that ended up getting botched after learning that killing them would have destroyed the world and done the one thing we were trying to avoid, and then Balthazar came in and force our attention on him instead.

    Even that wasn't really pre-emptive. We only focused on Primordus and Jormag after learning they had become active again, as a result of Mordremoth's death. Kralkatorrik was still supposedly silent so we didn't focus on him at the time.

    True, although their activity was not really felt much compared to Mordremoth or Zhaitan..
    Outside of Destroyers trying to go after Aurine they weren't really any more of a problem than they always have been in Gw2.
    Most of what we've seen of them in living world has been due to us persuing something into their territory rather than them attacking us.

    Outside of Sea Dragons minions Destroyers are probably the most underused Dragon Minion in the game so far, not that I find that something to complain about.
    I don't mind waiting and having Primordus be that last and most epic Dragon we take down.
    He was the first dragon we had dealings with back in Gw1 that finished up Gw1's story (unless you want to count Svanir which I don't tbh due to him being a single representation of Jormag and more of a side story antagonist than a main plot one, even then we encountered Destroyers first anyway)
    It would be kind of fitting if he were the last dragon we deal with in Gw2 to tie up Gw2's Elder Dragon story too.

  • Westenev.5289Westenev.5289 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 25, 2020

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Because ArenaNet can't make the story branches in different directions based on our decisions, I would prefer for the commander to be a NPC that we follow as his crew. It always feel weird to be both told we're in charge when we mostly follow what other NPC tell us to do.

    Im okay with this. It tells us we are pretty high up, just not the highest up. It feels like a good balance. I'd rather not be a god amongst mortals and I understand people want to feel important in the story. This seems like a good balance. When we are always the top-most dog, we run into problems later on about why we didn't just easily slay the next big bad after having done it multiple times before. Then the writers have to keep making the next big bad exponentially bigger and badder than the last until it gets ridiculous.

    edit: (I know from your post that being the toppest dog is not what you're asking for. I'm like you, I'd rather be as small as possible becasue it makes the world as big as possible. but, a lot of people like to feel like they are important in their stories.)

    The problem is that we are top dog, which is why Bangar keeps having to try and keep us in check. I mean, we're the defacto leader of the pact nobody will question (even Almorrah or Logan), slayer of 3 Elder Dragons, Slayer of gods, and have the favour of a certain Elder dragon. If the commander willed it, they could easily topple a government or five - a power we exercised to dethrone a certain lich god-king.

  • @Westenev.5289 said:

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Because ArenaNet can't make the story branches in different directions based on our decisions, I would prefer for the commander to be a NPC that we follow as his crew. It always feel weird to be both told we're in charge when we mostly follow what other NPC tell us to do.

    Im okay with this. It tells us we are pretty high up, just not the highest up. It feels like a good balance. I'd rather not be a god amongst mortals and I understand people want to feel important in the story. This seems like a good balance. When we are always the top-most dog, we run into problems later on about why we didn't just easily slay the next big bad after having done it multiple times before. Then the writers have to keep making the next big bad exponentially bigger and badder than the last until it gets ridiculous.

    edit: (I know from your post that being the toppest dog is not what you're asking for. I'm like you, I'd rather be as small as possible becasue it makes the world as big as possible. but, a lot of people like to feel like they are important in their stories.)

    The problem is that we are top dog, which is why Bangar keeps having to try and keep us in check. I mean, we're the defacto leader of the pact nobody will question (even Almorrah or Logan), slayer of 3 Elder Dragons, Slayer of gods, and have the favour of a certain Elder dragon. If the commander willed it, they could easily topple a government or five - a power we exercised to dethrone a certain lich god-king.

    We aren't. We're just high up there. We didn't slay 3 elder dragons, we were involved in the slaying of 3 elder dragons. We lead a group of heroes who have repeatedly shown that they have other priorities other than the group we lead. And often leave group business to handle what must be more important to them. i.e.: Logan wouldn't help topple his queen. You're taking examples of being high up and using it to extrapolate an illogical extreme.

  • Westenev.5289Westenev.5289 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:

    @Westenev.5289 said:

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Because ArenaNet can't make the story branches in different directions based on our decisions, I would prefer for the commander to be a NPC that we follow as his crew. It always feel weird to be both told we're in charge when we mostly follow what other NPC tell us to do.

    Im okay with this. It tells us we are pretty high up, just not the highest up. It feels like a good balance. I'd rather not be a god amongst mortals and I understand people want to feel important in the story. This seems like a good balance. When we are always the top-most dog, we run into problems later on about why we didn't just easily slay the next big bad after having done it multiple times before. Then the writers have to keep making the next big bad exponentially bigger and badder than the last until it gets ridiculous.

    edit: (I know from your post that being the toppest dog is not what you're asking for. I'm like you, I'd rather be as small as possible becasue it makes the world as big as possible. but, a lot of people like to feel like they are important in their stories.)

    The problem is that we are top dog, which is why Bangar keeps having to try and keep us in check. I mean, we're the defacto leader of the pact nobody will question (even Almorrah or Logan), slayer of 3 Elder Dragons, Slayer of gods, and have the favour of a certain Elder dragon. If the commander willed it, they could easily topple a government or five - a power we exercised to dethrone a certain lich god-king.

    We aren't. We're just high up there. We didn't slay 3 elder dragons, we were involved in the slaying of 3 elder dragons. We lead a group of heroes who have repeatedly shown that they have other priorities other than the group we lead. And often leave group business to handle what must be more important to them. i.e.: Logan wouldn't help topple his queen. You're taking examples of being high up and using it to extrapolate an illogical extreme.

    That's how legends are born.

  • Kathkere.3068Kathkere.3068 Member ✭✭
    edited April 28, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    We havent achieved that goal at any time in Gw2.. we've just delayed it temporarily.
    I wouldn't call it a loop of apocalypse stories.. it's more like one very long one with some twists and turns thrown in.

    That's fair, but personally it's not my cup of tea. Also, I was speaking in broader, more general terms when it comes to narrative power creep in MMORPGs. I disagree that you need a doomsday plot to keep things interesting, though I'll concede that a different path might be too late/not feasible for GW2.

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:
    We aren't. We're just high up there. We didn't slay 3 elder dragons, we were involved in the slaying of 3 elder dragons. We lead a group of heroes who have repeatedly shown that they have other priorities other than the group we lead. And often leave group business to handle what must be more important to them. i.e.: Logan wouldn't help topple his queen. You're taking examples of being high up and using it to extrapolate an illogical extreme.

    The problem is that the narrative puts us in this "leader" role. It inherently creates a massive chasm of ludonarrative dissonance as reason dictates that we can't all be the leader of this pact. An MMORPG ought to utilize the world for telling the narrative. For instance, rather than having it be the player leading faction X to victory against faction Y, the narrative could simply be this: faction X won against faction Y, and throughout this conflict the player could choose to help out faction X. In an MMORPG the player should be a small part of a greater whole, not the greater whole.