Guardian as a whole compared to the rest. — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Guardian as a whole compared to the rest.

Arken.3725Arken.3725 Member ✭✭✭

This is obviously from an Spvp stand-point so we could just knock that out of the way right now. I wanted to go over Guardian as a whole and how it operates for both damage-output, sustain, mobility, cc access, ect and compare it to the rest of the cast. I've been wanting to do this for a while since I believe most if not all aspects of Guardian play revolves around actually thinking. What do I mean by this? Take a look.

-Sustain: When we talk about sustain for Guardian, we're looking at what keeps it alive, right? How does Guardian do this overall? It's heavily reliance on Aegis being the primary offender here. This forces a player into the Honor trait-line, even though it was nerfed, heavily. Never has there been so much emphasis on active play when comparing Aegis to anything else to sustain itself. While I love this, it's been VERY difficult to keep oneself alive with such play. Strong passives don't seem to exist here, even less-so with the significant nerfs as of late.

-Damage-output: When we look at damage-output, we not only have to look at how much damage is applied but also how it's applied. Guardians have notoriously had it difficult(from launch) at applying damage. Look at the tracking on every ranged weapon it has, look at how difficult it is to keep an enemy inside its main damage-source(symbols). Even if you look past at how difficult it is to apply said damage, the actual potential damage applied is even more pitiful. One would think that if something is difficult to, the action itself would be significant. Not the case here.

-Mobility: This one is rather simple. Anyone and their mothers could see Guardians mobility is and has been less than average. As a primarily melee-profession, one would think that decent speed would be applied but here, it is not. One aspect you could also take into account is the ability to stick on an opponent which would require solid speed or copious amounts of debilitating conditions which again, guardian does not have.

With all of this being said, It would be nice to get some insight from a developer as to why Guardian is designed this way. I can't understand it with nearly 9k hours played on it. Outside of all of this, I haven't even gone into the traits and skills but that's for another time.

www.twitch.tv/arkryuken

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Comments

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2020

    I've always (well, haven't brought it up for some time now) advocated for aegis and blind acting as a 0.5 sec block and 0.5 sec miss all attacks respectively. that way timing still plays a part but it gets a massive defense boost (teef will actually be able to have some defense now), and stacking boon/ condi duration wouldn't really work. obviously some things would have to be reworked.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Arken.3725Arken.3725 Member ✭✭✭

    I mean, i'd be down for that only because a single-block to me is almost completely useless with all the aoe-spam and multi-hitting attacks to use effectively.

    www.twitch.tv/arkryuken

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    I've always (well, haven't brought it up for some time now) advocated for aegis and blind acting as a 0.5 sec block and 0.5 sec miss all attacks respectively. that way timing still plays a part but it gets a massive defense boost (teef will actually be able to have some defense now), and stacking boon/ condi duration wouldn't really work. obviously some things would have to be reworked.

    kitten, that would require alot of reworked engineer skills. How would you envision pulsing blinds to work here then? Like smoke bomb, would the enemy miss the whole time as long as they stand inside the smoke bomb?

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:
    kitten, that would require alot of reworked engineer skills. How would you envision pulsing blinds to work here then? Like smoke bomb, would the enemy miss the whole time as long as they stand inside the smoke bomb?

    either spread the pulses out (every 2 sec instead of 1), decrease duration, or a combo of both.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Arken.3725Arken.3725 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2020

    @otto.5684 Excellent post, let me compound off of you my friend.

    With the over-reliance on Aegis, you're stuck always dedicating a single trait-line to Honor. Funny thing about Honor is that it's far superior(even after the nerfs) to self-sustain the Guardian than Valor ever was. In fact, without FB, your access to Aegis is actually quite small(pop F3 and shield 4). It's also problematic that Guardian has notoriously had terrible healing-skills as well. Shelter, Litany, Shout-heal and Signet heals are so terrible by virtue(get it haha). In fact, the cd nerf to Litany made zero sense to me since it was such a terrible skill to begin with. **Let's go over the plethora of outdated(and un fun) skills Guardian has access to. **

    Healing Skills
    Shelter: Long CD, only form of channeled block with a relatively low heal. Why has this never really been utilized? Could be the long cd, mediocre heal, abundance of unblockable interrupts. Irregardless, this has been irrelevant since the dark-ages.

    Litany: This healing skill is the polar-opposite of ones such as Infuse-light and Defiant stance. Which do you guys think is harder to achieve, dealing damage to heal yourself of taking damage to heal yourself? rhetorical. Not to mention this now has the same cd and is infinitely harder to achieve the same results.

    Receive the light: On paper, this actually doesn't seem so bad. However, the trait that pairs with it has been outdated and I think it turns a lot of people off to investing into it. Biggest issue you'll find is successfully channeling all of the pulses with the sheer amount of CC in the game.

    Signet of Resolve: This one's easy. Incredibly long cd, incredibly long cast-time, FAR less than average passive-aspect for a signet with a decent heal. Self-explanatory if you ask me as to why this one is horrible.

    Purification: This used to be a solid heal until it got nerfed 3 times. Now it has a semi-longish cast-time with an average heal. It's still far better than the four mentioned above but that doesn't speak volumes here. The only reason why this is decent(ish) and possibly litany is it's often paired with meditation heal trait.

    Mantra of Solace: I love this heal because it has the risky aspect of charging it with the benefit of using the ageis and heals skillfully. That's mostly gone though. This heal alone forces a fb to always spec into the honor trait-line but now the benefit doesn't match the risk involved. Even when specced with Healing-power the actual heals given don't feel impactful anymore.

    I'll go over my personal opinion on utilities and traits next.

    For those curious about our current weaponry and what I think of it, this thread still holds relevance. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/76689/arkens-discussion-on-guardian-weaponry#latest

    www.twitch.tv/arkryuken

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2020

    Ya man. For honor, my thought process was to nerf aegis heal. Instead Anet nerfed the FB mantra heal. I really wish that FB is less invested in healing power, but nope. And since the mantra heal now sucks you are further relying on honor.

    LoW is dependent on damage levels. It was extremely valuable when core was strong. Right now, it kinda is unusable for power builds in sPvP. Reminding core heals are beyond terrible.

    IMO, purification was strong pre patch, and is even slightly stronger now. But of course DH only, and must invest in traps. So no real use outside of medi trapper DH which is Currently dead.

    For utilities to make it simple, it goes as follows: are you playing FB? Yes, use mantras and RF. No, are you using mediations? No, why are you playing PvP?

  • Arken.3725Arken.3725 Member ✭✭✭

    This is an extension to the op and the post above but regarding traits this time. I'll do my best to make it easy to read by separating them by their respective lines.

    Zeal
    Minors: Regarding all of these being symbol-based, a mechanic that requires all benefits requiring both the target and the person casting to stand still in a very small circle. This goes pretty much against what this game is about with all the talk on mobility and position Here goes:

    • Zealots speed: Gives no speed and is on a relatively long cd for it's terrible benefit that you have no control over. Symbolic exposure: Pretty solid trait for what it offers if you can keep an enemy in it. Symbolic Power: Same thing as exposure but again, this is reinforcing two things: One, to keep someone standing in a small circle and 2: Forcing investment into honor for Writ of Persistence.

    Majors: The overall scheme with the useful selections here are modifiers and maximizing them, the rest are incredibly subpar.
    Adept-tier

    • Wrathful Spirit: got a buff to add Fury, this trait is incredibly reliant on FB since it has much more access to aegis than the rest of the builds. Fiery Wrath: Even though this helps maximizing modifiers further, it doesn't feel 7% is worth the investment compared to the other two. Zealous Scepter: I would say this is the 2nd choice among the three since its duration got heavily nerfed but it relies once again, heavily on FB, Loremaster specifically.

    Master-tier

    • Furious Focus: This is the only good choice out of the three even though it got nerfed a bit recently. I'm not going to even go over the other two master-tier traits since they're so terrible it's not even worth mentioning.

    Grandmaster-tier

    • Symbolic Avenger: This the only good choice as well, and it's not even that great. A mere 10% for a GM isn't even that strong if you ask me. Also, the other two are just as bad majority of the master-tier traits that they're not even worth considering.

    Radiance
    Minors: It feels as if 2/3's of the minors here feel relatively useless outside of Radiant Power, especially Renewed Justice which is completely useless while in a fight. Justice is blind paired with just a high-cooldown virtue feels lacking

    Majors: This line isn't heavily focused on symbols but rather self-empowerment but does a poor job at it when compared to the overall strength of Zeal.
    Adept-tier

    • Inner Fire: This has been the same since release and since you have an abundance of Fury access, this feels redundant and useless. Right-Hand Strength; This used to be good when it gave an extra 15% crit chance on main-hand weapons but the nerf to give it such low stats doesn't even feel worth the investment. Healer's Retribution: This is the only sensible choice since it pairs well with the only good GM trait.

    Master-tier

    • Retribution: It's a very boring trait but the best once out of all the master-tier traits. It's not even worth discussing the other two ever since their recent nerfs have felled them into irrelevancy.

    Grandmaster-tier

    • Righteous Instincts: The only real choice out of the three, even though it got nerfed heavily. Once again, the other two aren't even worth talking about due to how terrible they are. The nerf to RF pushed Radiance out of the power-scene in favor of Zeal. Hell, even if they buffed it back it wouldn't compete.

    Valor
    Minors: The recent change to Steadfast Courage was excellent but the duration is way too short. Once again, outside of FB, Guardian lacks a lot of access to Aegis. Might of the protector used to be good but since they added an ICD, it's fallen to the wayside as kitten. Valorous Defense is just....what? This one is completely useless.

    Majors: The overall theme of this line is to provide selfish sustain but it does a very poor job overall.
    Adept-tier

    • Smiter's Boon: The only real choice in this line to provide decent self-sustain. It's gotten nerfed so much but it's THAT much better compared to the other two that it's not even a consideration to look at the others.

    Master-tier

    • The only real choices for this one are either the boring Stalwart Defender or Strength in Numbers. Both of which aren't interactive at all and are relatively weak but still far superior to Communal Defenses. Holy geez this tier is terrible.

    Grandmaster-tier

    • Once again, the only real reason you pick this line is for meditation-investment. The other traits aren't even in the same stratosphere in terms of effectiveness.

    Honor
    Minors: This line does a much better job at selfish sustain and team sustain compared to Valor that it's not even funny. Granted selfless Daring got nerfed recently, it still provides OK sustain. I miss what Purity of Body used to be: 10% more dmg when you were less than 100% endurance. This 15% endurance is pretty bad.

    Majors: You're investing into symbols here, nothing else comes close to being useful.

    Adept-tier

    • You're only real choice here is Protector's Restoration, even though it got nerfed unnecessarily. The other two are terrible due to the fact that Mace is still bugged and they really destroyed the rez trait here. Not worth it.

    Master-tier

    • Pure of Heart is still the go-to pick here, even with the nerfs as of late. For some reason, the other two got nerfed just as hard if not more even though they were completely useless. This one's obvious for your pick.

    Grandmaster-tier

    • Once again, you're picking kitten. Back when pure support was a thing, I could see Force of Will but that's not longer the case. Not to mention the shout-trait providing nothing of significant value for your team. You're running at max 1 shout in your build.

    Virtues
    Minors: Guardians don't really have access to very long duration boons anymore. FB nerfs saw to that. Power of the virtuous feels in a strange spot as such, same with Virtue of Retribution. Retal as it stands is both a terribly mindless boon and annoying poke-damage. It's a weaker confusion but in far more abundance. I'd see removal of this boon if I could.

    Majors: This trait-line no longer sees value in pvp anymore outside of core/dh. It doesn't provide enough of anything in particular to want to invest in.

    Adept-tier

    • All three of these are absolutely terrible but again, if you had to choose one, go with Retaliatory Subconscious. Nuff said here.

    Master-tier

    • Glacial heart was used often back when condi-brand could be a thing, no longer. You're only real choice here is Absolute resolution for sustain. The new inspiring virtue is so underwhelming that it ain't even funny.

    Grandmaster-tier

    • Once again, Permeating Wrath saw use but no longer. Sage-brand is dead along with this traits usefulness. Indomitable Courage is your only choice here.

    These are all just my insight on core Guardian. As you can see, at least 70% of these are absolutely useless and even the ones you take are as such. You're just stuck picking something. Let me know what you guys think.

    www.twitch.tv/arkryuken

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    11.6k HP, Aegis, and terrible healing skills are why I don't play Guardian.
    Signet of Resolve is badly designed. Shelter should be a Consecration. Too many traits tied to Retaliation and Aegis.

  • RUNICBLACK.7630RUNICBLACK.7630 Member ✭✭✭

    Honestly they have gutted so much of the Core Guardian trying get a handle on each of the Elites as they came out that not only have they made Core Guardian an absolute joke but they have as usual over reacted in their approach on the Elites so much so that I have shelved my various Guardians(3) for anything in the competitive side of the game be it PvP or WvW. I'm hoping that at some point they come to the realization of how much of a hole that they have put the Guardian and our various Elites in but I'm not holding my breath.

    Life before Death
    Strength before Weakness
    Journey before Destination
    stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Words

  • Arken.3725Arken.3725 Member ✭✭✭

    Without strong mechanics (durational blocks, stealth, evasion on skills, amazing mobility, ect) it's difficult to keep this ship floating. Interesting and fun interactive traits would also be nice. Maybe even some updated skills.

    It would be awesome if whoever's job is to look at guardian would take a look here. Some transparency would be awesome.

    www.twitch.tv/arkryuken

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arken.3725 said:
    Without strong mechanics (durational blocks, stealth, evasion on skills, amazing mobility, ect) it's difficult to keep this ship floating. Interesting and fun interactive traits would also be nice. Maybe even some updated skills.

    It would be awesome if whoever's job is to look at guardian would take a look here. Some transparency would be awesome.

    Thematically, guardian should be the very last class to ever get access to stealth....

  • Arken.3725Arken.3725 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 11, 2020

    I never said it should, I'm merely listing some of the most powerful mechanics in the game and how guardian has none of these. That's all.

    Edit: forgive me, it has shelter..... Such strong.

    www.twitch.tv/arkryuken

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arken.3725 said:
    Without strong mechanics (durational blocks, stealth, evasion on skills, amazing mobility, ect) it's difficult to keep this ship floating. Interesting and fun interactive traits would also be nice. Maybe even some updated skills.

    It would be awesome if whoever's job is to look at guardian would take a look here. Some transparency would be awesome.

    Transparency, LMAO....

    Example, just from last patch, the change to Heavy Light. Beside moving the CC to skill base (which was the only reason anyone used this trait), the 15% extra damage on CC to me tells me whoever made this change, not only never played DH or understands anything about guardian design, they did not kitten bother to read the what the other GM that does. A 15% flat to tethered targets which lasts 10 kitten seconds. So.. here is some transparency for you...

  • Here is what I think

    1) I think the scepter should go back to being 1200 range and the auto attack should be a chain attack that just hits the target , and not orbs flying out.

    2) I think the Virtues and Dragonhunter traitline should have a trait similar to Loremaster in Firebrand where we retain Virtues passives while they are on cooldown.

    3) I think Virtues is the traitline in most need of a complete rework. Absolute Resolution, Permeating Wrath, and Indomitable Courage are actually a well round of talents it just good there not all in the same slot. The main issue I have is that we shouldn't have to take an entire trait line just for Indomitable Courage where basically everything else is pointless.

    4)I think all virtues on F3 should be a stunbreak and the point from number 2 could easily replace Indomitable Courage.

    5)The effect when you hit a foe when disabled needs to stop, because it is becoming a trend of terrible traits. I think the stability on heavy light is okay, but the cripple and chill ones are useless.

    6) I think Firebrand is basically gonna get berserkered or Chronomancered. It does to much and I don't think they can really fix it. I feel what probably needs to happen is merge the tome skills into active abilities for the virtues. The F3 could be a stunbreak and the taunt skill and 1 skill. Then make a trait that when used it drops a symbol that is the number 4 currently.

    The f1 could be pull enemies to you and drop the number 4 and throw in the weakness effect from number 2.
    The f2 could be the convert conditions into boons and give swiftness and regeneration, and a set heal like wings of resolve like 2500 or something AOE.
    Make it drop the river pulse heal as a symbol when traited. So rework a trait to relate to the F3 and F2.

    Thats just some of my thoughts. There is a lot that needs to be worked on.

    What I would personally love is the mantras to be like 360 or 450 range instead of 180. The Axe auto attack to be a midrange weapon instead of a melee, so something like 450 to 600 range.

  • RUNICBLACK.7630RUNICBLACK.7630 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 12, 2020

    @Shaogin.2679 said:
    Play something other than Guardian the you can realize how nice you have it. I mean kitten, people complaining about Guardians being weak are the most extreme casuals ever. They are meta in every single game mode. I play Guardian and it is boring as hell because of how easy it is. Get over yourself already. Fact is, if you think Gaurdian is difficult to play or underpowered in any way, then you are just bad at the game.

    Just curious in what type of game mode do you play a Guardian(PvE, PvP, WvW and if PvP what Skill Rating have held and for how many seasons) because some of the players that are discussing these issues with the guardian(not myself because I'm just a filthy casual ) have played a Guardian in most every PvP season and held Plat tiers most every season so if you are implying that they don't know how to play by what standard are able to support your opinions .
    Mind you I'm not attacking you I am actually curious because if you can actually back up your argument with other than circular arguments and show that you are someone that does do Competitive PvP with some actual Rating regularly for multiple seasons I'm fairly sure most people would be interested in intelligent discussion.
    So please feel free to jump in .

    Life before Death
    Strength before Weakness
    Journey before Destination
    stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Words

  • Arken.3725Arken.3725 Member ✭✭✭

    Sometimes I feel like it's determental to make lengthy posts since I'm fairly certain a lot of what was posted will probably be glossed over. Here in essence is what I'm trying to say:

    • damage application is terrible on guardian due to the reasons listed above, not to mention the vast majority of the time there are no special properties attached to them ( evasion, blocks, just to name a few).
    • mobility is also rough in a sense that you could specialize into getting to your target but good luck sticking on them (lack of debilitating conditions).
    • sustain revolved almost entirely around active play. This may not sound like a weakness but when such play keeps getting nerfed compared to stronger counterparts which are much easier to utilize, that's an issue.

    These are just a few shorthand issues I feel the class is seeing.

    www.twitch.tv/arkryuken

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shaogin.2679 said:
    Play something other than Guardian the you can realize how nice you have it. I mean kitten, people complaining about Guardians being weak are the most extreme casuals ever. They are meta in every single game mode. I play Guardian and it is boring as hell because of how easy it is. Get over yourself already. Fact is, if you think Gaurdian is difficult to play or underpowered in any way, then you are just bad at the game.

    I do. I play Warrior and rev In PvP. Power guardian builds have not been competitive in a very long time. I would not mind SB troll CC and evade meta. Or rev burst, pre March patch. Why does the only viable builds has to be a misfit of using symbols and FB that never should have existed? but does due to devs incompetence in understanding that having power builds revolve around an AOE melee DOT does not work? Yet they kitten double down on it to reinforce the worst aspects of FB design. Then instead of needing FB they kitten nerf the honor line...

    I don’t want to play symbol FB, why the kitten is it the only playable build in sPvP?

    PvE wise, ya guardian is good. Is, was and always will be. Cuz AI mobs are dumb and stand in AOE. Also, 20 stacks of fire in PvE is a thing. and of course, HP pools do not matter much. Neither does mobility.

  • pninak.1069pninak.1069 Member ✭✭✭

    I find it weird how anet handles balance. For example I like to play mesmer as main class, but don't do it in pvp, because of how broken it is. It is pretty much just a metabattle build clown carnival with selfcreated builds pretty much getting the short end of the stick. gw1 had similiar issue with mainstream builds, but it atleast still rewards user created builds and has more different game modes.

    I think if soulbest and mirage have a tradeoff for their classes every other class deserves to have one too.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @pninak.1069 said:
    I find it weird how anet handles balance. For example I like to play mesmer as main class, but don't do it in pvp, because of how broken it is. It is pretty much just a metabattle build clown carnival with selfcreated builds pretty much getting the short end of the stick. gw1 had similiar issue with mainstream builds, but it atleast still rewards user created builds and has more different game modes.

    I think if soulbest and mirage have a tradeoff for their classes every other class deserves to have one too.

    Most other classes already have tradeoffs installed.
    Warrior: berserker replaces their burst skills with other skills, spellbreaker just has 2 adrenaline bars and access to level 1 bursts
    Guardian: both elite specs replace their virtues (f1-F3)
    Revenant: both elite specs replace the F2 skill (Ancient Echo)

    Thief: both elite specs replace the F1 skill (Steal)
    Ranger: druid has weaker pets, soulbeast lost pet swap in combat now
    Engineer: both elite specs replace the F5 skill (elite toolbelt), scrapper additionally gets a 180 vitality malus

    Elementalist: tempest is missing a real trade off, weaver loses instant access to offhand skills of an attunement
    Necromancer: both elite specs replace the Death Shroud (F1)
    Mesmer: chronomancer replaces all shatter skills with other versions, mirage technically replaces the dodge roll, but I wouldn't really consider this a trade off, since mirage cloak is just better in every single situation imaginable, the 1 dodge roll penalty is PvP only as far as I know

    So you just have to give tempest a trade off and mirage probably could also get one that affects PvE, not just PvP, and we are basically done with installing tradeoffs.

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2020

    Guardian is one of the strongest damage dealer classes in the game, the Snowcrows build alone can help you do up to 35k dps, that's more than I will ever do on my warrior alone. Dragon hunter and Firebrand are both really competitive damage dealers as a whole in all game modes. In terms of support, Guardian is still top dog, wholistically you don't need the Honor Line to be an effective support, you can actually take valor which puts emphasis on toughness and virtues which gives boon duration and virtue recharge( with firebrands it's book recharge) you just have to use your dodge rolls when you zerg.

    At the moment in this current patch I can go full damage build DH with minstrels armor and never die in PvE as Guardian while remaining an effective damage dealer. I've actually watched several of your streams and your reliance on the Harrier Amulet really takes a lot away from your survival to thief level health pool from vitality. Maybe switch to something with vitality that way you don't need to rely on honor so much?

  • Drennon.7190Drennon.7190 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    Guardian is one of the strongest damage dealer classes in the game, the Snowcrows build alone can help you do up to 35k dps, that's more than I will ever do on my warrior alone. Dragon hunter and Firebrand are both really competitive damage dealers as a whole in all game modes. In terms of support, Guardian is still top dog, wholistically you don't need the Honor Line to be an effective support, you can actually take valor which puts emphasis on toughness and virtues which gives boon duration and virtue recharge( with firebrands it's book recharge) you just have to use your dodge rolls when you zerg.

    At the moment in this current patch I can go full damage build DH with minstrels armor and never die in PvE as Guardian while remaining an effective damage dealer. I've actually watched several of your streams and your reliance on the Harrier Amulet really takes a lot away from your survival to thief level health pool from vitality. Maybe switch to something with vitality that way you don't need to rely on honor so much?

    PvE damage means nothing in PvP.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2020

    @Drennon.7190 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    Guardian is one of the strongest damage dealer classes in the game, the Snowcrows build alone can help you do up to 35k dps, that's more than I will ever do on my warrior alone. Dragon hunter and Firebrand are both really competitive damage dealers as a whole in all game modes. In terms of support, Guardian is still top dog, wholistically you don't need the Honor Line to be an effective support, you can actually take valor which puts emphasis on toughness and virtues which gives boon duration and virtue recharge( with firebrands it's book recharge) you just have to use your dodge rolls when you zerg.

    At the moment in this current patch I can go full damage build DH with minstrels armor and never die in PvE as Guardian while remaining an effective damage dealer. I've actually watched several of your streams and your reliance on the Harrier Amulet really takes a lot away from your survival to thief level health pool from vitality. Maybe switch to something with vitality that way you don't need to rely on honor so much?

    PvE damage means nothing in PvP.

    Wasn't guardian, or more specifically Firebrand, just recently nerfed heavily in PvP because it was dramatically overperforming?

    The recent interview with a dev on Teapots stream also suggested that Dragonhunter performs very strong in the mid playing field (mid to top gold, low plat). Which means it might see tuning down, even though it is not over represented in the top PvP (plat 3+).

    Which part of PvP are guardians currently having issues with?

    Not even going to mention WvW and burnguard there.

  • Arken.3725Arken.3725 Member ✭✭✭

    Let's try to stay on topic that this discussion only revolves around spvp. I feel like we're missing the point of this thread which is to discuss the current mechanics guardian has and how they're weak/unfun.

    We're not talking about targets that stand-still nor ones that don't use positioning. These are all things guardian has an issue dealing with (lack of mobility/debilitating conditions).

    There's a laundry-list of stuff that I haven't even convered that when you really think about it, as a whole, guardian feels tacked on. Here are some examples:

    • adding chill to hammer long ago to give guardians something in terms of sticking to an opponent.
    • the addition of the 25 percent movement on dh which is so underwhelming that no one I know even considers using it.
    • old righteous instincts to help guardian deal with their low-health which was nerfed into obscurity.

    The list goes on and on. I'm trying to inform people here and maybe even some developers to take a closer look at guardian. I've said this before and I'll keep repeating it, if it is necessary for the betterment of this game to nerf guardian, so be it.

    However, I know and can find a plethora of problems/underwhelming mechanics for me to prove otherwise.

    www.twitch.tv/arkryuken

  • RUNICBLACK.7630RUNICBLACK.7630 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2020

    Using PvE damage as comparative to either of the competitive game modes is just flawed(particularly when the whole discussion at its start was stated to be that it was focused on Solo Que PvP only). In PvE you fighting against either a static foe or a scripted one often with very predictable patterns where as in competitive it is a individual that while sometimes they can be predictable often they aren't. On the WvW side the main reason for the high representation of Guardian(mainly FB's) the high output of group Stability, Quickness, and the situational Retaliation(for AOE happy foes), I'm not saying we are worthless on damage per say but we do get out done by quite a few other classes , on the PvP side I have question that opinion somewhat (with regard to our level of representation on the different tiers) in that many(but not all)of the same classes that were over representing in all of the Mid levels and Top levels before the previous patch are still there after the patch which tends to point the fact that the patch didn't shake things up as much as it should hav and that it's application of damping of damage etc was rather uneven at best to put it mildly.

    Life before Death
    Strength before Weakness
    Journey before Destination
    stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Words

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2020

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    Using PvE damage as comparative to either of the competitive game modes is just flawed(particularly when the whole discussion at its start was stated to be that it was focused on Solo Que PvP only). In PvE you fighting against either a static foe or a scripted one often with very predictable patterns where as in competitive it is a individual that while sometimes they can be predictable often they aren't. On the WvW side the main reason for the high representation of Guardian(mainly FB's) the high output of group Stability, Quickness, and the situational Retaliation(for AOE happy foes), I'm not saying we are worthless on damage per say but we do get out done by quite a few other classes , on the PvP side I have question that opinion somewhat (with regard to our level of representation on the different tiers) in that many(but not all)of the same classes that were over representing in all of the Mid levels and Top levels before the previous patch are still there after the patch which tends to point the fact that the patch didn't shake things up as much as it should hav and that it's application of damping of damage etc was rather uneven at best to put it mildly.

    So, how does this address the issue of Burn Firebrand, burn core guardian or burn Dragonhunter in WvW?

    Or how Firebrand was completely busted last pvp season on both symbol build and burn build in pvp and is still a very strong spec (even after the nerfs)?

    Last months NA MAT (this is AFTER the nerfs in Feb 21st and March 5th):

    Firebrand in literally EVERY team. Am I missing a joke or something here?

    Don't get me wrong, I love my guardians, play one of them as one of my main WvW classes, but if you are currently trying to make arguments as to why guardian or one of its elites is under-performing, you are fighting a serious uphill battle. No reason to even look to PvE for that.

    @Arken.3725 said:
    The list goes on and on. I'm trying to inform people here and maybe even some developers to take a closer look at guardian. I've said this before and I'll keep repeating it, if it is necessary for the betterment of this game to nerf guardian, so be it.

    Given guardians over representation in almost all game modes, chances are very high the developers will take a look at them more in the future (even more likely IF a third specialization should come around as to keep power creep in check). I just doubt guardian is currently up for buffs of any kind in any game mode.

    EDIT:
    and almost as to prove my point, the 1 recent poll in the WvW forums:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/102452/vote-your-favourite-all-round-wvw-class-that-can-do-both-zerg-roaming#latest
    Take a guess which class leads the pack by a mile? Guardian. Which, while not representative, could show that quite a few players would consider guardian in a pretty good spot for that competitive game mode overall.

  • RUNICBLACK.7630RUNICBLACK.7630 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2020

    Cyninja I think you are missing the point of this entire discussion which is that due to how Anet has attempted to address the issues with FB, which while they have made some adjustments to the class and it abilities they have also heavily adjusted the Core Guardian. You comments about FB's in every AT or in every WvW Zerg are exactly the point , you hear it even the higher tier PvE be it raids, fractals or even the tougher strike missions if you come on with something other than an FB you will get kicked. The argument for so many of these past patches was to increase diversity but all it has done is exactly the opposite.
    I'm not saying that the Guardian is alone in this situation of being pigeonholed in basically one build but this has been a problem for awhile.
    As a side note your using Tourneys to compare them to Solo Que PvP which are not the same thing, tourney team players often work together regularly whereas Solo Que it's a total mixed bag on any kind of team work.

    Life before Death
    Strength before Weakness
    Journey before Destination
    stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Words

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    Cyninja I think you are missing the point of this entire discussion which is that due to how Anet has attempted to address the issues with FB, which while they have made some adjustments to the class and it abilities they have also heavily adjusted the Core Guardian. You comments about FB's in every AT or in every WvW Zerg are exactly the point , you hear it even the higher tier PvE be it raids, fractals or even the tougher strike missions if you come on with something other than an FB you will get kicked. The argument for so many of these past patches was to increase diversity but all it has done is exactly the opposite.

    Yes, Guardian is not represented in ALL game content with EVERY elite. No class is.

    Guardian is meta in pretty much every game mode AND has strong builds in its core spec or other elite. Core guardian works very well as burn guard. It works in part even better

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    I'm not saying that the Guardian is alone in this situation of being pigeonholed in basically one build but this has been a problem for awhile.

    Guardian is the LEAST pigeon holded class in this game by far atm with viable and working builds for EVERY game mode in multiple elite or core variants. The only exception being when in high demand as support build, which many classes can not even provide, and definitely not in such a strength that FB does.

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    As a side note your using Tourneys to compare them to Solo Que PvP which are not the same thing, tourney team players often work together regularly whereas Solo Que it's a total mixed bag on any kind of team work.

    So, one can't argue with PvE balance, neither with WvW balance, nor with top tier pvp balance? Aren't you rather picky as far which arguments are allowed?

    I'd say all of those paint a rather clear picture of a VERY strong class at the moment. Which is also reflected in the build variety currently available in game.

  • Drennon.7190Drennon.7190 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    Cyninja I think you are missing the point of this entire discussion which is that due to how Anet has attempted to address the issues with FB, which while they have made some adjustments to the class and it abilities they have also heavily adjusted the Core Guardian. You comments about FB's in every AT or in every WvW Zerg are exactly the point , you hear it even the higher tier PvE be it raids, fractals or even the tougher strike missions if you come on with something other than an FB you will get kicked. The argument for so many of these past patches was to increase diversity but all it has done is exactly the opposite.

    Yes, Guardian is not represented in ALL game content with EVERY elite. No class is.

    Guardian is meta in pretty much every game mode AND has strong builds in its core spec or other elite. Core guardian works very well as burn guard. It works in part even better

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    I'm not saying that the Guardian is alone in this situation of being pigeonholed in basically one build but this has been a problem for awhile.

    Guardian is the LEAST pigeon holded class in this game by far atm with viable and working builds for EVERY game mode in multiple elite or core variants. The only exception being when in high demand as support build, which many classes can not even provide, and definitely not in such a strength that FB does.

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    As a side note your using Tourneys to compare them to Solo Que PvP which are not the same thing, tourney team players often work together regularly whereas Solo Que it's a total mixed bag on any kind of team work.

    So, one can't argue with PvE balance, neither with WvW balance, nor with top tier pvp balance? Aren't you rather picky as far which arguments are allowed?

    I'd say all of those paint a rather clear picture of a VERY strong class at the moment. Which is also reflected in the build variety currently available in game.

    Just because burn guard and DH work in meme tier PvP, doesn’t mean it’s good.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    Cyninja I think you are missing the point of this entire discussion which is that due to how Anet has attempted to address the issues with FB, which while they have made some adjustments to the class and it abilities they have also heavily adjusted the Core Guardian. You comments about FB's in every AT or in every WvW Zerg are exactly the point , you hear it even the higher tier PvE be it raids, fractals or even the tougher strike missions if you come on with something other than an FB you will get kicked. The argument for so many of these past patches was to increase diversity but all it has done is exactly the opposite.

    Yes, Guardian is not represented in ALL game content with EVERY elite. No class is.

    Guardian is meta in pretty much every game mode AND has strong builds in its core spec or other elite. Core guardian works very well as burn guard. It works in part even better

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    I'm not saying that the Guardian is alone in this situation of being pigeonholed in basically one build but this has been a problem for awhile.

    Guardian is the LEAST pigeon holded class in this game by far atm with viable and working builds for EVERY game mode in multiple elite or core variants. The only exception being when in high demand as support build, which many classes can not even provide, and definitely not in such a strength that FB does.

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    As a side note your using Tourneys to compare them to Solo Que PvP which are not the same thing, tourney team players often work together regularly whereas Solo Que it's a total mixed bag on any kind of team work.

    So, one can't argue with PvE balance, neither with WvW balance, nor with top tier pvp balance? Aren't you rather picky as far which arguments are allowed?

    I'd say all of those paint a rather clear picture of a VERY strong class at the moment. Which is also reflected in the build variety currently available in game.

    PvE, ya, sure. Guardian does have a bit of diversity and has at least two meta builds. sPvP diversity? Zero. You are stuck with symbol FB. Nothing else is remotely competitive. I dont like to talk about blob PvP. Blob is blob, balance in it is blob and talking about it makes me blob. So.. can we stop blobbing?

  • RUNICBLACK.7630RUNICBLACK.7630 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2020

    By all means feel free to argue on the merits of PvE balance but I would suggest that you do it in thread that is what they are talking about instead a thread that wasn't discussing PvE at all. And I have the utmost respect for the "Organized Tourney Teams" and I'm sure many of them do stand in the Top Tiers of regular Solo Que PvP but I would say that their expectations of organized team work from their team mates in a Solo Que PvP match versus their expectations of their team mates in Organized Tourney is totally different which would also tend to change their method of game play between the two types of matches, ergo different choices on traits and skills between the two in the one where there is solid coordination between the players because of familiarity where each player can depend on the other player to assist in such a way as to complement each other and cover each others weaknesses which would allow for greater risks in their choice on the build but could lead to higher rewards where as in the Solo Que it's more like a PUG where you would tend to be more cautious on your build choices etc because you would no longer be able expect even remotely the same level of support .

    Life before Death
    Strength before Weakness
    Journey before Destination
    stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Words

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    Cyninja I think you are missing the point of this entire discussion which is that due to how Anet has attempted to address the issues with FB, which while they have made some adjustments to the class and it abilities they have also heavily adjusted the Core Guardian. You comments about FB's in every AT or in every WvW Zerg are exactly the point , you hear it even the higher tier PvE be it raids, fractals or even the tougher strike missions if you come on with something other than an FB you will get kicked. The argument for so many of these past patches was to increase diversity but all it has done is exactly the opposite.

    Yes, Guardian is not represented in ALL game content with EVERY elite. No class is.

    Guardian is meta in pretty much every game mode AND has strong builds in its core spec or other elite. Core guardian works very well as burn guard. It works in part even better

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    I'm not saying that the Guardian is alone in this situation of being pigeonholed in basically one build but this has been a problem for awhile.

    Guardian is the LEAST pigeon holded class in this game by far atm with viable and working builds for EVERY game mode in multiple elite or core variants. The only exception being when in high demand as support build, which many classes can not even provide, and definitely not in such a strength that FB does.

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    As a side note your using Tourneys to compare them to Solo Que PvP which are not the same thing, tourney team players often work together regularly whereas Solo Que it's a total mixed bag on any kind of team work.

    So, one can't argue with PvE balance, neither with WvW balance, nor with top tier pvp balance? Aren't you rather picky as far which arguments are allowed?

    I'd say all of those paint a rather clear picture of a VERY strong class at the moment. Which is also reflected in the build variety currently available in game.

    PvE, ya, sure. Guardian does have a bit of diversity and has at least two meta builds. sPvP diversity? Zero. You are stuck with symbol FB. Nothing else is remotely competitive. I dont like to talk about blob PvP. Blob is blob, balance in it is blob and talking about it makes me blob. So.. can we stop blobbing?

    and how many classes have more than 1 competitive build available at the top end?

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    By all means feel free to argue on the merits of PvE balance but I would suggest that you do it in thread that is what they are talking about instead a thread that wasn't discussing PvE at all. And I have the utmost respect for the "Organized Tourney Teams" and I'm sure many of them do stand in the Top Tiers of regular Solo Que PvP but I would say that their expectations of organized team work from their team mates in a Solo Que PvP match versus their expectations of their team mates in Organized Tourney is totally different which would also tend to change their method of game play between the two types of matches, ergo different choices on traits and skills between the two in the one where there is solid coordination between the players because of familiarity where each player can depend on the other player to assist in such a way as to complement each other and cover each others weaknesses which would allow for greater risks in their choice on the build but could lead to higher rewards where as in the Solo Que it's more like a PUG where you would tend to be more cautious on your build choices etc because you would no longer be able expect even remotely the same level of support .

    Stop pretending Firebrand is not just as strong in regular pvp. Symbol Firebrand remains a very strong pick for regular pvp play, even AFTER it got nerfed.

    Some guardian only players are in for a rude awakening once balance actually catches up to the class.

  • You don't like being stuck with one type of build on a Guard...then go play an Engi.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2020

    @Drennon.7190 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    Cyninja I think you are missing the point of this entire discussion which is that due to how Anet has attempted to address the issues with FB, which while they have made some adjustments to the class and it abilities they have also heavily adjusted the Core Guardian. You comments about FB's in every AT or in every WvW Zerg are exactly the point , you hear it even the higher tier PvE be it raids, fractals or even the tougher strike missions if you come on with something other than an FB you will get kicked. The argument for so many of these past patches was to increase diversity but all it has done is exactly the opposite.

    Yes, Guardian is not represented in ALL game content with EVERY elite. No class is.

    Guardian is meta in pretty much every game mode AND has strong builds in its core spec or other elite. Core guardian works very well as burn guard. It works in part even better

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    I'm not saying that the Guardian is alone in this situation of being pigeonholed in basically one build but this has been a problem for awhile.

    Guardian is the LEAST pigeon holded class in this game by far atm with viable and working builds for EVERY game mode in multiple elite or core variants. The only exception being when in high demand as support build, which many classes can not even provide, and definitely not in such a strength that FB does.

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    As a side note your using Tourneys to compare them to Solo Que PvP which are not the same thing, tourney team players often work together regularly whereas Solo Que it's a total mixed bag on any kind of team work.

    So, one can't argue with PvE balance, neither with WvW balance, nor with top tier pvp balance? Aren't you rather picky as far which arguments are allowed?

    I'd say all of those paint a rather clear picture of a VERY strong class at the moment. Which is also reflected in the build variety currently available in game.

    Just because burn guard and DH work in meme tier PvP, doesn’t mean it’s good.

    Meme tier aka dev said highest win rate or one of in plat. Not saying they need nerfed but the condition burning definitely needs toned down in general which would indirectly nerf guard builds and and all other burn builds across the classes but needs to be done. Right now burning can tic as much as a burst skill which is not ok.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    Cyninja I think you are missing the point of this entire discussion which is that due to how Anet has attempted to address the issues with FB, which while they have made some adjustments to the class and it abilities they have also heavily adjusted the Core Guardian. You comments about FB's in every AT or in every WvW Zerg are exactly the point , you hear it even the higher tier PvE be it raids, fractals or even the tougher strike missions if you come on with something other than an FB you will get kicked. The argument for so many of these past patches was to increase diversity but all it has done is exactly the opposite.

    Yes, Guardian is not represented in ALL game content with EVERY elite. No class is.

    Guardian is meta in pretty much every game mode AND has strong builds in its core spec or other elite. Core guardian works very well as burn guard. It works in part even better

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    I'm not saying that the Guardian is alone in this situation of being pigeonholed in basically one build but this has been a problem for awhile.

    Guardian is the LEAST pigeon holded class in this game by far atm with viable and working builds for EVERY game mode in multiple elite or core variants. The only exception being when in high demand as support build, which many classes can not even provide, and definitely not in such a strength that FB does.

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    As a side note your using Tourneys to compare them to Solo Que PvP which are not the same thing, tourney team players often work together regularly whereas Solo Que it's a total mixed bag on any kind of team work.

    So, one can't argue with PvE balance, neither with WvW balance, nor with top tier pvp balance? Aren't you rather picky as far which arguments are allowed?

    I'd say all of those paint a rather clear picture of a VERY strong class at the moment. Which is also reflected in the build variety currently available in game.

    PvE, ya, sure. Guardian does have a bit of diversity and has at least two meta builds. sPvP diversity? Zero. You are stuck with symbol FB. Nothing else is remotely competitive. I dont like to talk about blob PvP. Blob is blob, balance in it is blob and talking about it makes me blob. So.. can we stop blobbing?

    and how many classes have more than 1 competitive build available at the top end?

    Is not this specifically the issue of this thread is about? It is a question of how many S-B tier builds that guardian has in sPvP. And It is only 1. That was not the case before the patch. Symbol FB was S tier (A tier now). Sage FB was A tier (C tier now). DH media trapper was B+ tier (C tier now). Does guardian have it the worst? No. Mesmer has no A tier builds. Neither does ranger. But as a guardian player, there is only 1 thing I was looking for: more viable and/or competitive guardian builds in sPvP. And clearly, that did not happen, cuz the new CMC guys is clueless, and royally kitten sPvP. Cuz instead of fixing the issues with sPvP he decided to do a hard reset, setting the game back to beta. And he clearly lacks the competence and the vision to get it even back to 1 competitive build per class.

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Drennon.7190 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    Cyninja I think you are missing the point of this entire discussion which is that due to how Anet has attempted to address the issues with FB, which while they have made some adjustments to the class and it abilities they have also heavily adjusted the Core Guardian. You comments about FB's in every AT or in every WvW Zerg are exactly the point , you hear it even the higher tier PvE be it raids, fractals or even the tougher strike missions if you come on with something other than an FB you will get kicked. The argument for so many of these past patches was to increase diversity but all it has done is exactly the opposite.

    Yes, Guardian is not represented in ALL game content with EVERY elite. No class is.

    Guardian is meta in pretty much every game mode AND has strong builds in its core spec or other elite. Core guardian works very well as burn guard. It works in part even better

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    I'm not saying that the Guardian is alone in this situation of being pigeonholed in basically one build but this has been a problem for awhile.

    Guardian is the LEAST pigeon holded class in this game by far atm with viable and working builds for EVERY game mode in multiple elite or core variants. The only exception being when in high demand as support build, which many classes can not even provide, and definitely not in such a strength that FB does.

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    As a side note your using Tourneys to compare them to Solo Que PvP which are not the same thing, tourney team players often work together regularly whereas Solo Que it's a total mixed bag on any kind of team work.

    So, one can't argue with PvE balance, neither with WvW balance, nor with top tier pvp balance? Aren't you rather picky as far which arguments are allowed?

    I'd say all of those paint a rather clear picture of a VERY strong class at the moment. Which is also reflected in the build variety currently available in game.

    Just because burn guard and DH work in meme tier PvP, doesn’t mean it’s good.

    Meme tier aka dev said highest win rate or one of in plat. Not saying they need nerfed but the condition burning definitely needs toned down in general which would indirectly nerf guard builds and and all other burn builds across the classes but needs to be done. Right now burning can tic as much as a burst skill which is not ok.

    As you said, it is meme tier. Win rates is a very poor measure, as CMC even hinted at. From another MMO, the devs right out said there is an inverse relationship between overall win rates and effectiveness of a build. Who do you think plays DH now? Flavor of the month rollers, or dedicated veterans who love DH? If you do a scatter shot approach of performance, best indicator typically is volume of people who play a specific build. Not very accurate either, but much better than looking purely at win rate. Other approaches need data we players have no access to, so it is only conjecture. Primarily, you need to look at winning compositions in above 1,500 games and in AT, then look the frequency of occurrence of a specific build. Theoretically, if you see mirage popping in many winning compositions (it surely is not), then you know it is the problem. You combine that with its presentation in top 250, top 50 and all across sPvP, that probably is the strongest indicator of performance.

  • Arken.3725Arken.3725 Member ✭✭✭

    This discussion was to look-over individual mechanics found on Guardian as a comparison to the rest. Hell, I can tell you exactly why FB is still in a decent spot and the main reason is still.......Symbols. This mechanic alone works wonders when the size of a point is the same size as your AoE. They keep toning them down but I feel like a mechanic needs an overhaul. I feel like we're on the cusp of seeing FB being pushed out relatively soon.

    www.twitch.tv/arkryuken

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I can guarantee people have bandaged to dh/guards due to their access to burn condition and how overperforming it is, I mean it's no secret. Burning needs hammered, if that means guards as a whole needs some love for them to be viable without the dependance on a broken condition than by all means. By the sounds of the complaints in thos thread the need love as do a lot of classes to allow more build deversity. Don't mistake what I said as a nerf dh post as I'm talking about nerfing the burning condition damage across all classes, just as it stands guards and its elites in combination with symbols and traps are utilizing this overperforming condition the most. Burn weavers etc will also be effected but if everyone playing guards are honest with themselves they'd kno there's no way anet is going to leave the tic damage on burning how it currently is.

  • Arken.3725Arken.3725 Member ✭✭✭

    When you talk about how strong burning is don't forget, what's the most important aspect that allows strong condi-specs to work? Variation. Guardians have ZERO condition variation. We have no ways to bury that burning. You can't just nerf that, it wouldn't make sense.

    www.twitch.tv/arkryuken

  • Mini Crinny.6190Mini Crinny.6190 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arken.3725 said:
    This is obviously from an Spvp stand-point so we could just knock that out of the way right now. I wanted to go over Guardian as a whole and how it operates for both damage-output, sustain, mobility, cc access, ect and compare it to the rest of the cast. I've been wanting to do this for a while since I believe most if not all aspects of Guardian play revolves around actually thinking. What do I mean by this? Take a look.

    -Sustain: When we talk about sustain for Guardian, we're looking at what keeps it alive, right? How does Guardian do this overall? It's heavily reliance on Aegis being the primary offender here. This forces a player into the Honor trait-line, even though it was nerfed, heavily. Never has there been so much emphasis on active play when comparing Aegis to anything else to sustain itself. While I love this, it's been VERY difficult to keep oneself alive with such play. Strong passives don't seem to exist here, even less-so with the significant nerfs as of late.

    -Damage-output: When we look at damage-output, we not only have to look at how much damage is applied but also how it's applied. Guardians have notoriously had it difficult(from launch) at applying damage. Look at the tracking on every ranged weapon it has, look at how difficult it is to keep an enemy inside its main damage-source(symbols). Even if you look past at how difficult it is to apply said damage, the actual potential damage applied is even more pitiful. One would think that if something is difficult to, the action itself would be significant. Not the case here.

    -Mobility: This one is rather simple. Anyone and their mothers could see Guardians mobility is and has been less than average. As a primarily melee-profession, one would think that decent speed would be applied but here, it is not. One aspect you could also take into account is the ability to stick on an opponent which would require solid speed or copious amounts of debilitating conditions which again, guardian does not have.

    With all of this being said, It would be nice to get some insight from a developer as to why Guardian is designed this way. I can't understand it with nearly 9k hours played on it. Outside of all of this, I haven't even gone into the traits and skills but that's for another time.

    Careful what you wish for, Guardian right now is strong across the game

  • Arken.3725Arken.3725 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2020

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:

    @Arken.3725 said:
    This is obviously from an Spvp stand-point so we could just knock that out of the way right now. I wanted to go over Guardian as a whole and how it operates for both damage-output, sustain, mobility, cc access, ect and compare it to the rest of the cast. I've been wanting to do this for a while since I believe most if not all aspects of Guardian play revolves around actually thinking. What do I mean by this? Take a look.

    -Sustain: When we talk about sustain for Guardian, we're looking at what keeps it alive, right? How does Guardian do this overall? It's heavily reliance on Aegis being the primary offender here. This forces a player into the Honor trait-line, even though it was nerfed, heavily. Never has there been so much emphasis on active play when comparing Aegis to anything else to sustain itself. While I love this, it's been VERY difficult to keep oneself alive with such play. Strong passives don't seem to exist here, even less-so with the significant nerfs as of late.

    -Damage-output: When we look at damage-output, we not only have to look at how much damage is applied but also how it's applied. Guardians have notoriously had it difficult(from launch) at applying damage. Look at the tracking on every ranged weapon it has, look at how difficult it is to keep an enemy inside its main damage-source(symbols). Even if you look past at how difficult it is to apply said damage, the actual potential damage applied is even more pitiful. One would think that if something is difficult to, the action itself would be significant. Not the case here.

    -Mobility: This one is rather simple. Anyone and their mothers could see Guardians mobility is and has been less than average. As a primarily melee-profession, one would think that decent speed would be applied but here, it is not. One aspect you could also take into account is the ability to stick on an opponent which would require solid speed or copious amounts of debilitating conditions which again, guardian does not have.

    With all of this being said, It would be nice to get some insight from a developer as to why Guardian is designed this way. I can't understand it with nearly 9k hours played on it. Outside of all of this, I haven't even gone into the traits and skills but that's for another time.

    Careful what you wish for, Guardian right now is strong across the game

    What I want is a look at and removal/overhaul of certain strong mechcanics(symbols for instance) and in place something interesting/fun that's not as strong.

    Edit: In fact, tell me what you think is strong on Guardian strictly from an spvp standpoint. What are its most powerful mechanics that keep it relevant?

    www.twitch.tv/arkryuken

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arken.3725 said:
    This discussion was to look-over individual mechanics found on Guardian as a comparison to the rest. Hell, I can tell you exactly why FB is still in a decent spot and the main reason is still.......Symbols. This mechanic alone works wonders when the size of a point is the same size as your AoE. They keep toning them down but I feel like a mechanic needs an overhaul. I feel like we're on the cusp of seeing FB being pushed out relatively soon.

    I disagree with this somewhat. Theoretically, if symbols are what is so powerful, then they should work best for power builds. But that is not the case. IMO is making symbols proc justice faster is what makes FB effective. You add that with the heal from honor on symbols, this is where FB really excels. The power damage for symbols for FB is negligible. If we remove from Symbolic Power, Justice passive effect twice as fast, symbol FB will probably not be viable. And I think this should be the route taken, in favor of putting condi damage somewhere else. In fact, I think the entire trait should be removed (30% more damage to symbols) in favor of redistributing the damage to weapons.

    And ya, if this gets hammered out without any compensation, no guardian build will be viable.

  • Arken.3725Arken.3725 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2020

    Not against that entirely @otto.5684 just when symbols are so ingrained into your weaponry you're once again forced to utilize it the most.

    Edit: Indirectly you're seeing yourself how strong symbols can be with the one trait you listed.

    www.twitch.tv/arkryuken

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arken.3725 said:
    Not against that entirely @otto.5684 just when symbols are so ingrained into your weaponry you're once again forced to utilize it the most.

    Edit: Indirectly you're seeing yourself how strong symbols can be with the one trait you listed.

    Ya, but I prefer GS symbol concept. Short duration and high damage. It works better for guardian and for overall balance. This should be the direction taken, not compounding million things on a concept that does not work well in PvP so you brute force it to work.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    I can guarantee people have bandaged to dh/guards due to their access to burn condition and how overperforming it is, I mean it's no secret. Burning needs hammered, if that means guards as a whole needs some love for them to be viable without the dependance on a broken condition than by all means. By the sounds of the complaints in thos thread the need love as do a lot of classes to allow more build deversity. Don't mistake what I said as a nerf dh post as I'm talking about nerfing the burning condition damage across all classes, just as it stands guards and its elites in combination with symbols and traps are utilizing this overperforming condition the most. Burn weavers etc will also be effected but if everyone playing guards are honest with themselves they'd kno there's no way anet is going to leave the tic damage on burning how it currently is.

    I would hate this since this would make condition engineer way less viable. Burning was always designed as a high damage tick condition, hence why it's application is usually less frequent for most classes than the lower tick condis like bleed.

    If they really reduce the burning tick damage, then engineer would need a major overhaul for their condition builds.

  • Arken.3725Arken.3725 Member ✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Arken.3725 said:
    Not against that entirely @otto.5684 just when symbols are so ingrained into your weaponry you're once again forced to utilize it the most.

    Edit: Indirectly you're seeing yourself how strong symbols can be with the one trait you listed.

    Ya, but I prefer GS symbol concept. Short duration and high damage. It works better for guardian and for overall balance. This should be the direction taken, not compounding million things on a concept that does not work well in PvP so you brute force it to work.

    See I find the GS symbol to be the worst of them all. It can do significant damage but it's too easily avoidable since you have nothing to keep your enemy in it. If you ask me, I like the marks concept, those skills are ALL front-loaded.

    www.twitch.tv/arkryuken

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2020

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    I can guarantee people have bandaged to dh/guards due to their access to burn condition and how overperforming it is, I mean it's no secret. Burning needs hammered, if that means guards as a whole needs some love for them to be viable without the dependance on a broken condition than by all means. By the sounds of the complaints in thos thread the need love as do a lot of classes to allow more build deversity. Don't mistake what I said as a nerf dh post as I'm talking about nerfing the burning condition damage across all classes, just as it stands guards and its elites in combination with symbols and traps are utilizing this overperforming condition the most. Burn weavers etc will also be effected but if everyone playing guards are honest with themselves they'd kno there's no way anet is going to leave the tic damage on burning how it currently is.

    I would hate this since this would make condition engineer way less viable. Burning was always designed as a high damage tick condition, hence why it's application is usually less frequent for most classes than the lower tick condis like bleed.

    If they really reduce the burning tick damage, then engineer would need a major overhaul for their condition builds.

    I've already started to see engines running around with flame throwers literally just spamming it lol. Burnings definitely gonna be nerfed dps wise just matter of time. Burning using flame throwing is not infrequent access nor aplication and neither is guards access to it. Burning should be a effective dot if not cleared but as it is now the single tics shouldn't rival power bursts lol.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2020

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    Cyninja I think you are missing the point of this entire discussion which is that due to how Anet has attempted to address the issues with FB, which while they have made some adjustments to the class and it abilities they have also heavily adjusted the Core Guardian. You comments about FB's in every AT or in every WvW Zerg are exactly the point , you hear it even the higher tier PvE be it raids, fractals or even the tougher strike missions if you come on with something other than an FB you will get kicked. The argument for so many of these past patches was to increase diversity but all it has done is exactly the opposite.

    Yes, Guardian is not represented in ALL game content with EVERY elite. No class is.

    Guardian is meta in pretty much every game mode AND has strong builds in its core spec or other elite. Core guardian works very well as burn guard. It works in part even better

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    I'm not saying that the Guardian is alone in this situation of being pigeonholed in basically one build but this has been a problem for awhile.

    Guardian is the LEAST pigeon holded class in this game by far atm with viable and working builds for EVERY game mode in multiple elite or core variants. The only exception being when in high demand as support build, which many classes can not even provide, and definitely not in such a strength that FB does.

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    As a side note your using Tourneys to compare them to Solo Que PvP which are not the same thing, tourney team players often work together regularly whereas Solo Que it's a total mixed bag on any kind of team work.

    So, one can't argue with PvE balance, neither with WvW balance, nor with top tier pvp balance? Aren't you rather picky as far which arguments are allowed?

    I'd say all of those paint a rather clear picture of a VERY strong class at the moment. Which is also reflected in the build variety currently available in game.

    PvE, ya, sure. Guardian does have a bit of diversity and has at least two meta builds. sPvP diversity? Zero. You are stuck with symbol FB. Nothing else is remotely competitive. I dont like to talk about blob PvP. Blob is blob, balance in it is blob and talking about it makes me blob. So.. can we stop blobbing?

    and how many classes have more than 1 competitive build available at the top end?

    Is not this specifically the issue of this thread is about? It is a question of how many S-B tier builds that guardian has in sPvP. And It is only 1. That was not the case before the patch. Symbol FB was S tier (A tier now). Sage FB was A tier (C tier now). DH media trapper was B+ tier (C tier now). Does guardian have it the worst? No. Mesmer has no A tier builds. Neither does ranger. But as a guardian player, there is only 1 thing I was looking for: more viable and/or competitive guardian builds in sPvP. And clearly, that did not happen, cuz the new CMC guys is clueless, and royally kitten sPvP. Cuz instead of fixing the issues with sPvP he decided to do a hard reset, setting the game back to beta. And he clearly lacks the competence and the vision to get it even back to 1 competitive build per class.

    That's your opinion which is, according to the same CMC guy you are dissing, not reflected in the games stats. DH sees a very high win rate in sub P2.

    As a guardian player, the fact you have 2-3 builds in S-A tier, while other classes have none at all, should already tell you where your classes is currently situated balance wise.

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Drennon.7190 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    Cyninja I think you are missing the point of this entire discussion which is that due to how Anet has attempted to address the issues with FB, which while they have made some adjustments to the class and it abilities they have also heavily adjusted the Core Guardian. You comments about FB's in every AT or in every WvW Zerg are exactly the point , you hear it even the higher tier PvE be it raids, fractals or even the tougher strike missions if you come on with something other than an FB you will get kicked. The argument for so many of these past patches was to increase diversity but all it has done is exactly the opposite.

    Yes, Guardian is not represented in ALL game content with EVERY elite. No class is.

    Guardian is meta in pretty much every game mode AND has strong builds in its core spec or other elite. Core guardian works very well as burn guard. It works in part even better

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    I'm not saying that the Guardian is alone in this situation of being pigeonholed in basically one build but this has been a problem for awhile.

    Guardian is the LEAST pigeon holded class in this game by far atm with viable and working builds for EVERY game mode in multiple elite or core variants. The only exception being when in high demand as support build, which many classes can not even provide, and definitely not in such a strength that FB does.

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    As a side note your using Tourneys to compare them to Solo Que PvP which are not the same thing, tourney team players often work together regularly whereas Solo Que it's a total mixed bag on any kind of team work.

    So, one can't argue with PvE balance, neither with WvW balance, nor with top tier pvp balance? Aren't you rather picky as far which arguments are allowed?

    I'd say all of those paint a rather clear picture of a VERY strong class at the moment. Which is also reflected in the build variety currently available in game.

    Just because burn guard and DH work in meme tier PvP, doesn’t mean it’s good.

    Meme tier aka dev said highest win rate or one of in plat. Not saying they need nerfed but the condition burning definitely needs toned down in general which would indirectly nerf guard builds and and all other burn builds across the classes but needs to be done. Right now burning can tic as much as a burst skill which is not ok.

    As you said, it is meme tier. Win rates is a very poor measure, as CMC even hinted at. From another MMO, the devs right out said there is an inverse relationship between overall win rates and effectiveness of a build. Who do you think plays DH now? Flavor of the month rollers, or dedicated veterans who love DH? If you do a scatter shot approach of performance, best indicator typically is volume of people who play a specific build. Not very accurate either, but much better than looking purely at win rate.

    You are assuming that all the devs look at is win rate. That is a very poor assumption to make.

    Also while win rate is a poor measure, it's better than subjective opinion.

    @otto.5684 said:
    Other approaches need data we players have no access to, so it is only conjecture. Primarily, you need to look at winning compositions in above 1,500 games and in AT, then look the frequency of occurrence of a specific build. Theoretically, if you see mirage popping in many winning compositions (it surely is not), then you know it is the problem. You combine that with its presentation in top 250, top 50 and all across sPvP, that probably is the strongest indicator of performance.

    Yes, and guardian is represented there since a very long time now. Unlike at least 4 other classes. You can obviously complain about not having MULTIPLE builds available at that level, but that is a luxury most other classes don't even come close to.

    Also again, let's remember that this is AFTER recent balance patches aimed at reducing guardian, and specifically Firebrand, effectiveness. There is absolutely no reason to believe ANY buffs are in line for guardian at the moment.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    I can guarantee people have bandaged to dh/guards due to their access to burn condition and how overperforming it is, I mean it's no secret. Burning needs hammered, if that means guards as a whole needs some love for them to be viable without the dependance on a broken condition than by all means. By the sounds of the complaints in thos thread the need love as do a lot of classes to allow more build deversity. Don't mistake what I said as a nerf dh post as I'm talking about nerfing the burning condition damage across all classes, just as it stands guards and its elites in combination with symbols and traps are utilizing this overperforming condition the most. Burn weavers etc will also be effected but if everyone playing guards are honest with themselves they'd kno there's no way anet is going to leave the tic damage on burning how it currently is.

    I would hate this since this would make condition engineer way less viable. Burning was always designed as a high damage tick condition, hence why it's application is usually less frequent for most classes than the lower tick condis like bleed.

    If they really reduce the burning tick damage, then engineer would need a major overhaul for their condition builds.

    I've already started to see engines running around with flame throwers literally just spamming it lol. Burnings definitely gonna be nerfed dps wise just matter of time. Burning using flame throwing is not infrequent access nor aplication and neither is guards access to it. Burning should be a effective dot if not cleared but as it is now the single tics shouldn't rival power bursts lol.

    Spamming flamethrower 1 gives you 4 seconds of burning with a channel time of 2 1/4 seconds, dude. You won't get a huge amount of burning stacks from that.

  • pninak.1069pninak.1069 Member ✭✭✭

    holo's burn chain I use in Pve is big'ol'bomb lava pond followed by firey ammunition. then holoforge skill 4 wait for 100%+ primelightbeam. meanwhile in between pistol skill 4 bomb kit 2+3 and flamethrower 2+4. use rabid gear with balthazar runes some trailblazers to get 100%. For burnguard fb I use settler's with some trailblazer's. mantra of fire signet for condi dmg. traits are obvious.

    Now I think this discussion is mostly about wvw, where more and more classes seem to be absent. people switch to harder targets, because they don't wanna get oneshot propably. I think this is directly related to player favouring classes over another and being dishonest. I don't play wvw as much, but mostly use condimirage.