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Hylek in Cantha?

Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭

Just wanted to ask a question to the lore experts, is there the slightest chance at all that some Hylek used to live in Cantha (before the whole banishment stuff and all from the ministry of purity)?

I have an idea for an elite spec for the engineer and it would help alot if there was the possibility that there used to live some Hylek hidden in Cantha somewhere, from which the humans have taken some alchemical secrets.

Comments

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 13, 2020

    We never saw all of Cantha, so the possibility could exist as they are a widespread race. I'd expect a significant regional variation if they did

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Most Canthan wildlife was pretty much different from Tyrian wildlife. So the chances are fairly slim, and if such did then it would have been in the ~1/3rd of the continent we didn't get to explore. If we exclude the tengu (which I hesitate to call wildlife for obvious reasons) and any potential relation between naga and krait, the only real similarities between Canthan and Tyrian/Elonian wildlife would probably be mantids and dragons/drakes.

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  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Most Canthan wildlife was pretty much different from Tyrian wildlife. So the chances are fairly slim, and if such did then it would have been in the ~1/3rd of the continent we didn't get to explore. If we exclude the tengu (which I hesitate to call wildlife for obvious reasons) and any potential relation between naga and krait, the only real similarities between Canthan and Tyrian/Elonian wildlife would probably be mantids and dragons/drakes.

    Yeah, Hylek in Cantha haven't been a thing in Guild Wars 1 Factions, but is there a sligh chance that they existed there or migrated towards Cantha at a later point to avoid the minions of the Deep Sea Dragon (Hylek need water to reproduce in the end)?
    Like the Dredge migrated to Cantha to avoid getting enslaved by the dwarves?

    I know that this isolation thing in Cantha is going on and they they banished all "non humans" from Cantha in the process. But if some tribes of the Hylek would find a way into Cantha (maybe over the sea), there could be a chance that the ministry of purity, instead of just sending them out again, could capture and imprison these Hylek to get their alchemical knowledge?

    The ministry of purity had the goal to free Cantha of the consequences of the plague, I think that deep knowledge about alchemy could be seen as a weapon for them.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 13, 2020

    @Kodama.6453 said:
    Yeah, Hylek in Cantha haven't been a thing in Guild Wars 1 Factions, but is there a sligh chance that they existed there or migrated towards Cantha at a later point to avoid the minions of the Deep Sea Dragon (Hylek need water to reproduce in the end)?
    Like the Dredge migrated to Cantha to avoid getting enslaved by the dwarves?

    I find this unlikely. Unlike the dredge, the hylek do not have easy access to the vast cave network of the dwarves or the ability to make new tunnels - their best chance this way would be finding an active ancient asura gate that led to Cantha but... that's unlikely, due to the fact that the old gate network is pretty much inoperative after Primordus' awakening (due to the fact that Primordus powered it inadvertently). And they wouldn't be able to survive a swim there because despite being amphibious, they're likely fresh water creatures and do need land and air to live - the Clashing Seas is a long distance for a migration.

    I know that this isolation thing in Cantha is going on and they they banished all "non humans" from Cantha in the process. But if some tribes of the Hylek would find a way into Cantha (maybe over the sea), there could be a chance that the ministry of purity, instead of just sending them out again, could capture and imprison these Hylek to get their alchemical knowledge?

    The ministry of purity had the goal to free Cantha of the consequences of the plague, I think that deep knowledge about alchemy could be seen as a weapon for them.

    Would the hylek even get a chance to show they have alchemical knowledge? Knowledge of the "frogmen" before Cantha's isolation was bare minimum, and they were treated as primitive brutes in GW1 with nothing more than natural poisons for their skills. It's unknown to say how much they were observed to be more advanced before Zhaitan's rise - it was 150 years after all so it's certainly plausible - but even if they were observed to have alchemical knowledge, would Cantha have learned this, cared about it, and remembered it for 100+ years?

    Or would Canthans just treat any immigrant hyleks in the same manner that Turai Ossa's people treated the Forgotten, and thinking them to be nothing more than mindless beasts?

    Overall, I would argue the chances ofhyleks migrating there and surviving to be less than 1%. And the chances of them living there prior being less than 20%. Unlike Elona, which is physically connected, Cantha is separated by a wide ocean - that tends to drastically alter the course of evolution and nature of wildlife. The only species that would be there are those who are transported on ships, migrated there in some Tyrian-version of Pangea or Beringia, or could naturally survive a flight or swim across the ocean with its many predators (which would only increase with the DSD minion's presence apparently wiping out ships).

    EDIT: If the goal is just to find some argument of alchemical ties for an engineer elite specialization, then there's no reason to call out the hylek - Canthans could have had scholars go in that direction on their own accord, especially since the plague had the Am Fah deal with concoctions that mixed with spells to spread the plague.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 13, 2020

    At the end of the day, for your purposes the answer is simply a case of being unlikely, but not impossible. If you can work within that narrow confine, then it shouldn't overly matter. The existing lore isn't preventing it, it just makes it less likely.

    As Konig says though, the alchemy idea can be worked in through other more plausible ways if necessary

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:
    Yeah, Hylek in Cantha haven't been a thing in Guild Wars 1 Factions, but is there a sligh chance that they existed there or migrated towards Cantha at a later point to avoid the minions of the Deep Sea Dragon (Hylek need water to reproduce in the end)?
    Like the Dredge migrated to Cantha to avoid getting enslaved by the dwarves?

    I find this unlikely. Unlike the dredge, the hylek do not have easy access to the vast cave network of the dwarves or the ability to make new tunnels - their best chance this way would be finding an active ancient asura gate that led to Cantha but... that's unlikely, due to the fact that the old gate network is pretty much inoperative after Primordus' awakening (due to the fact that Primordus powered it inadvertently). And they wouldn't be able to survive a swim there because despite being amphibious, they're likely fresh water creatures and do need land and air to live - the Clashing Seas is a long distance for a migration.

    I know that this isolation thing in Cantha is going on and they they banished all "non humans" from Cantha in the process. But if some tribes of the Hylek would find a way into Cantha (maybe over the sea), there could be a chance that the ministry of purity, instead of just sending them out again, could capture and imprison these Hylek to get their alchemical knowledge?

    The ministry of purity had the goal to free Cantha of the consequences of the plague, I think that deep knowledge about alchemy could be seen as a weapon for them.

    Would the hylek even get a chance to show they have alchemical knowledge? Knowledge of the "frogmen" before Cantha's isolation was bare minimum, and they were treated as primitive brutes in GW1 with nothing more than natural poisons for their skills. It's unknown to say how much they were observed to be more advanced before Zhaitan's rise - it was 150 years after all so it's certainly plausible - but even if they were observed to have alchemical knowledge, would Cantha have learned this, cared about it, and remembered it for 100+ years?

    Or would Canthans just treat any immigrant hyleks in the same manner that Turai Ossa's people treated the Forgotten, and thinking them to be nothing more than mindless beasts?

    Overall, I would argue the chances ofhyleks migrating there and surviving to be less than 1%. And the chances of them living there prior being less than 20%. Unlike Elona, which is physically connected, Cantha is separated by a wide ocean - that tends to drastically alter the course of evolution and nature of wildlife. The only species that would be there are those who are transported on ships, migrated there in some Tyrian-version of Pangea or Beringia, or could naturally survive a flight or swim across the ocean with its many predators (which would only increase with the DSD minion's presence apparently wiping out ships).

    EDIT: If the goal is just to find some argument of alchemical ties for an engineer elite specialization, then there's no reason to call out the hylek - Canthans could have had scholars go in that direction on their own accord, especially since the plague had the Am Fah deal with concoctions that mixed with spells to spread the plague.

    I know that it is well possible to build in an alchemical theme without having to rely on Hylek, the core engineer also already has some chemical aspects in the end.
    I just wanted to built them in because I really like the Hylek as a race and would like them to have a bit more lore spotlight.

    But yes, I already figured that it would be unlikely to get Hylek incorporated there. So I guess I just have to go with the explanation that the ministry of purity came up with all the alchemical stuff themselves. Thanks for the through analysis.

  • Dustfinger.9510Dustfinger.9510 Member ✭✭
    edited April 14, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Most Canthan wildlife was pretty much different from Tyrian wildlife. So the chances are fairly slim, and if such did then it would have been in the ~1/3rd of the continent we didn't get to explore. If we exclude the tengu (which I hesitate to call wildlife for obvious reasons) and any potential relation between naga and krait, the only real similarities between Canthan and Tyrian/Elonian wildlife would probably be mantids and dragons/drakes.

    Why would you hesitate to call tengu wildlife but not hylek?

    @Kodama.6453 said:
    Just wanted to ask a question to the lore experts, is there the slightest chance at all that some Hylek used to live in Cantha (before the whole banishment stuff and all from the ministry of purity)?

    I have an idea for an elite spec for the engineer and it would help alot if there was the possibility that there used to live some Hylek hidden in Cantha somewhere, from which the humans have taken some alchemical secrets.

    Anywhere there is swamp or jungle, hylek could potentially be. If the Canthans looked at hylek as animals, they would have been excluded from banishment as a "nonhuman" race. So, you have room to work. I'd just stay away from any personal lore that tries to make big descisions on behalf of the Canthan nation.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As has been proven in the real world many times, no border can ever be completely closed off. Especially not for as long as Cantha has been out of circulation. If other races like the Hylek were determined to find their way into Cantha -- or even if they just wandered in by accident -- I have absolutely no doubt they could get there, and probably have.

  • To add to Jimbru's point about completely sealing a border, the lore says Cantha banished all non human races. It doesn't say that Cantha had the ability to cover every inch of their terrain. And seeing the playable races national ability to police their own terrain, it is highly unlikely that Cantha could actually make sure that there were no non humans hidden in their lands.

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:
    To add to Jimbru's point about completely sealing a border, the lore says Cantha banished all non human races. It doesn't say that Cantha had the ability to cover every inch of their terrain. And seeing the playable races national ability to police their own terrain, it is highly unlikely that Cantha could actually make sure that there were no non humans hidden in their lands.

    Idk. Humans are a pretty invasive species. And who knows how much their population has grown since then. Kaening could have expanded significantly during that time. With the land potentially returning back to pre-shiro, there could be a possibility of population growth from humans. I suspect we'll see a few Largos in the area, and wouldn't be surprised to see plenty of Quaggan. Of course those are mostly underwater species that wouldn't fight for land, but still!

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:
    To add to Jimbru's point about completely sealing a border, the lore says Cantha banished all non human races. It doesn't say that Cantha had the ability to cover every inch of their terrain. And seeing the playable races national ability to police their own terrain, it is highly unlikely that Cantha could actually make sure that there were no non humans hidden in their lands.

    In most circumstances, I'd agree. However, Cantha is not only isolated by law, but also by a vast ocean which in the past 200 years has seen the addition of the DSD's minions - even before this, it was considered a challenging journey to sail (hence why the sea between Tyria/Elona and Cantha is called the Clashing Seas). And with 200 years and authoritative rule, it's very plausible that the vast majority of non-humans in Cantha were either enslaved, exterminated, or exiled. Those that weren't, are likely small pockets that have to constantly move to avoid being found.

    Most "real world borders" talked about are land borders, but Cantha only has sea borders, which changes the playing field quite a bit.

    I'm not saying it'd be impossible to smuggle a group into Cantha - but an entire colony that had no prior contact with Cantha and no insider? Seems downright impossible unless Canthans have since removed their xenophobic/isolationist tendencies.

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    All these squares make a circle.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They would probably never do it but what if we get to Cantha and the humans have all been wiped out?

  • Dustfinger.9510Dustfinger.9510 Member ✭✭
    edited April 15, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:
    To add to Jimbru's point about completely sealing a border, the lore says Cantha banished all non human races. It doesn't say that Cantha had the ability to cover every inch of their terrain. And seeing the playable races national ability to police their own terrain, it is highly unlikely that Cantha could actually make sure that there were no non humans hidden in their lands.

    In most circumstances, I'd agree. However, Cantha is not only isolated by law, but also by a vast ocean which in the past 200 years has seen the addition of the DSD's minions - even before this, it was considered a challenging journey to sail (hence why the sea between Tyria/Elona and Cantha is called the Clashing Seas). And with 200 years and authoritative rule, it's very plausible that the vast majority of non-humans in Cantha were either enslaved, exterminated, or exiled. Those that weren't, are likely small pockets that have to constantly move to avoid being found.

    Most "real world borders" talked about are land borders, but Cantha only has sea borders, which changes the playing field quite a bit.

    I'm not saying it'd be impossible to smuggle a group into Cantha - but an entire colony that had no prior contact with Cantha and no insider? Seems downright impossible unless Canthans have since removed their xenophobic/isolationist tendencies.

    Yes! Pockets of species is what I'm suggesting. Any concerted effort would be made by the human civilization of Cantha. So, they would have exiled/enslaved/killed other civilizations that they knew about or could find. So, ogres may not be an option becasue they live pretty obviously unless they were underground but hylek, could have larger groups in woods and swamps the way bandits would hide out from the city states and fiefdoms who ruled their territiories. Much in the vein of Robinhood and his merry men.

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    Idk. Humans are a pretty invasive species. And who knows how much their population has grown since then. Kaening could have expanded significantly during that time. With the land potentially returning back to pre-shiro, there could be a possibility of population growth from humans. I suspect we'll see a few Largos in the area, and wouldn't be surprised to see plenty of Quaggan. Of course those are mostly underwater species that wouldn't fight for land, but still!

    Humans aren't the alpha species in GW that they are in the real world. While it is possible that they have spread over the land like a plague, it is also possible that they didn't. Or, that they have been culled by dragons or some other threat. But, using Robinhood type bands as an example, if humans can hide from humans in woods and forests, it is possible that species that are more suited to survive in the wild could also hide out. Possibly using naturaly dangerous terrain to stay hidden and to help discourage much investigation into their areas. I'm thinking something like creating or supporting a "haunted forest" mythos by making sure they stay unseen and making sure there are few who come back out after going in.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:
    To add to Jimbru's point about completely sealing a border, the lore says Cantha banished all non human races. It doesn't say that Cantha had the ability to cover every inch of their terrain. And seeing the playable races national ability to police their own terrain, it is highly unlikely that Cantha could actually make sure that there were no non humans hidden in their lands.

    In most circumstances, I'd agree. However, Cantha is not only isolated by law, but also by a vast ocean which in the past 200 years has seen the addition of the DSD's minions - even before this, it was considered a challenging journey to sail (hence why the sea between Tyria/Elona and Cantha is called the Clashing Seas). And with 200 years and authoritative rule, it's very plausible that the vast majority of non-humans in Cantha were either enslaved, exterminated, or exiled. Those that weren't, are likely small pockets that have to constantly move to avoid being found.

    Most "real world borders" talked about are land borders, but Cantha only has sea borders, which changes the playing field quite a bit.

    I'm not saying it'd be impossible to smuggle a group into Cantha - but an entire colony that had no prior contact with Cantha and no insider? Seems downright impossible unless Canthans have since removed their xenophobic/isolationist tendencies.

    Yes! Pockets of species is what I'm suggesting. Any concerted effort would be made by the human civilization of Cantha. So, they would have exiled/enslaved/killed other civilizations that they knew about or could find. So, ogres may not be an option becasue they live pretty obviously unless they were underground but hylek, could have larger groups in woods and swamps the way bandits would hide out from the city states and fiefdoms who ruled their territiories. Much in the vein of Robinhood and his merry men.

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    Idk. Humans are a pretty invasive species. And who knows how much their population has grown since then. Kaening could have expanded significantly during that time. With the land potentially returning back to pre-shiro, there could be a possibility of population growth from humans. I suspect we'll see a few Largos in the area, and wouldn't be surprised to see plenty of Quaggan. Of course those are mostly underwater species that wouldn't fight for land, but still!

    Humans aren't the alpha species in GW that they are in the real world. While it is possible that they have spread over the land like a plague, it is also possible that they didn't. Or, that they have been culled by dragons or some other threat. But, using Robinhood type bands as an example, if humans can hide from humans in woods and forests, it is possible that species that are more suited to survive in the wild could also hide out. Possibly using naturaly dangerous terrain to stay hidden and to help discourage much investigation into their areas. I'm thinking something like creating or supporting a "haunted forest" mythos by making sure they stay unseen and making sure there are few who come back out after going in.

    The thing why I am asking: I want an elite spec based on chemical warfare, meaning that the spec has advanced knowledge about alchemy.
    Which is something that Hylek are known for, especially aggressive chemicals like poisons.

    So you say that the humans could either exile, enslave, or kill the other species. My idea has been that the ministry of purity enslaved Hylek they encountered to get their alchemical knowledge. The leading goal for the ministry was the extinction of any trace of the plague, alchemy could prove useful for this task and that's why I think that the ministry possibly didn't exile or kill Hylek they met right away, but imprisoned them for their knowledge.

    Do you think this is a realistic scenario or just way too much of a coincidence?

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:
    Yes! Pockets of species is what I'm suggesting. Any concerted effort would be made by the human civilization of Cantha. So, they would have exiled/enslaved/killed other civilizations that they knew about or could find. So, ogres may not be an option becasue they live pretty obviously unless they were underground but hylek, could have larger groups in woods and swamps the way bandits would hide out from the city states and fiefdoms who ruled their territiories. Much in the vein of Robinhood and his merry men.

    There really aren't any "swamps" in Cantha. None that we can really see in GW1 for sure. Same goes for woods - the only forest-like area is the Echovald Forest, which is fairly well explored and well known by Kurzicks even by GW1 time, and after Factions, they killed their biggest threat (Urgoz) so after Usoku conquered them and enforced no-non-humans, unless the Kurzicks were actively defying said order, it's unlikely for any group to thrive in the Echovald without knowledge. Living within a liquefied Jade Sea would be the best option of explored lands. But hylek can't live underwater - they're amphibious, not aquatic.

    Either way, this level of hole-hopping is getting to the point of convoluted theorycrafting or straight up fan-fiction, which wouldn't really work for OP's needs of "using lore as a basis for elite specialization theorycrafting". When you have to build theory on top of theory on top of theory... it gets out of hand.

    Humans aren't the alpha species in GW that they are in the real world. While it is possible that they have spread over the land like a plague, it is also possible that they didn't.

    They definitely did, especially so in the three continents explored - which, of course, includes Cantha.

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    All these squares make a circle.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:
    The thing why I am asking: I want an elite spec based on chemical warfare, meaning that the spec has advanced knowledge about alchemy.
    Which is something that Hylek are known for, especially aggressive chemicals like poisons.

    So you say that the humans could either exile, enslave, or kill the other species. My idea has been that the ministry of purity enslaved Hylek they encountered to get their alchemical knowledge. The leading goal for the ministry was the extinction of any trace of the plague, alchemy could prove useful for this task and that's why I think that the ministry possibly didn't exile or kill Hylek they met right away, but imprisoned them for their knowledge.

    Do you think this is a realistic scenario or just way too much of a coincidence?

    Given the complete and utter lack of frog-like creatures in Cantha in GW1, any appearance of hylek in Cantha prior to the events of the expansion falls under "way too much of a coincidence" imo.

    The only reasonable buildup would be that they lived in the 1/3rd-or-less of the continent that was unexplored in GW1 and not among the parts of Kaineng City we didn't see. Basically the southernmost parts of Cantha. However, given the global map of the world, those areas should be too cold for cold-blooded species to naturally adapt to, because it'd be fairly close to the south pole.

    If you look at this map, the best likelihood for any kind of cold-blooded species like hyleks to be prevalent would be the archipelago in the SW part of Cantha, or the easternmost coast in the southern half of Cantha - but this would be assuming that it's not so far south that it's too cold, or that there's a wind current that brings in warmth similar to the Gulf Stream / North Atlantic Current that brings warm waters towards northern Europe.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Dustfinger.9510Dustfinger.9510 Member ✭✭
    edited April 15, 2020

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    The thing why I am asking: I want an elite spec based on chemical warfare, meaning that the spec has advanced knowledge about alchemy.
    Which is something that Hylek are known for, especially aggressive chemicals like poisons.

    So you say that the humans could either exile, enslave, or kill the other species. My idea has been that the ministry of purity enslaved Hylek they encountered to get their alchemical knowledge. The leading goal for the ministry was the extinction of any trace of the plague, alchemy could prove useful for this task and that's why I think that the ministry possibly didn't exile or kill Hylek they met right away, but imprisoned them for their knowledge.

    Do you think this is a realistic scenario or just way too much of a coincidence?

    I don't think it'd be too much of a coincidence. They'd have both the motivation to study due to the plague and the government backing their projects. Personally , I'd stay away from large scale government decisions but something like this doesn't need to be large scale at all. It'd be akin to a country taking their leading scientist in any given field and giving them a small team to see what he could do with it. In fact, they wouldn't even need to have hylek in the borders. All they'd need is the motivation to issue "travel visas" to people working on behalf of the government. And that motivation is there from the plague.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    There really aren't any "swamps" in Cantha. None that we can really see in GW1 for sure. Same goes for woods - the only forest-like area is the Echovald Forest, which is fairly well explored and well known by Kurzicks even by GW1 time, and after Factions, they killed their biggest threat (Urgoz) so after Usoku conquered them and enforced no-non-humans, unless the Kurzicks were actively defying said order, it's unlikely for any group to thrive in the Echovald without knowledge. Living within a liquefied Jade Sea would be the best option of explored lands. But hylek can't live underwater - they're amphibious, not aquatic.

    Either way, this level of hole-hopping is getting to the point of convoluted theorycrafting or straight up fan-fiction, which wouldn't really work for OP's needs of "using lore as a basis for elite specialization theorycrafting". When you have to build theory on top of theory on top of theory... it gets out of hand.

    Humans aren't the alpha species in GW that they are in the real world. While it is possible that they have spread over the land like a plague, it is also possible that they didn't.

    They definitely did, especially so in the three continents explored - which, of course, includes Cantha.

    Definitely theory crafting. This is the lore forums after all. But I'd disagree strongly on fanfic as we're looking for solid in-lore room to work with.

    I know you're more of a purist. So you tend to be a bit more conservative in what you think is possible or likely in lore but A-net has written a scenario where so much time has passed and so many world altering events have happened that the actual lorepossibilities are vast. More likely, to change or expand upon, I would think, than to hold onto the idea that nothing has changed beyond what the player could see in game hundreds of years ago. It was mentioned that there was a large portion that went unexplored by players in game. Is it possible that this portion could hold swamps or forests?

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:
    Definitely theory crafting. This is the lore forums after all. But I'd disagree strongly on fanfic as we're looking for solid in-lore room to work with.

    It's not really in-lore though, You're creating a theory based on a theory based on an assumption. The theories you're suggestion would require:

    • Cantha's isolation across sea borders to be as poor as along earth borders here.
    • For hylek to both want to and be capable of making the trek.
    • For them to remain undetected or at least "not exterminated" after x-many years.
    • That there is hospitable environment for them in the unexplored portions of Cantha.
    • And then to build a scenario with all the above to justify a player-crafted elite specialization.

    While clearly it is not impossible, it's also pretty clearly exceedingly unlikely.

    I know you're more of a purist. So you tend to be a bit more conservative in what you think is possible or likely in lore but A-net has written a scenario where so much time has passed and so many world altering events have happened that the actual lorepossibilities are vast. More likely, to change or expand upon, I would think, than to hold onto the idea that nothing has changed beyond what the player could see in game hundreds of years ago.

    I'm not holding onto the notion that Cantha hasn't changed from Factions. I mean, it very clearly has. I'm rather talking about this one specific notion of hylek suddenly showing up in Cantha, given the lore from both pre, during, and post-GW1's era.

    Wouldn't really call that being a purist or conservative, since I'm just looking at what's established, and stipulating the possibilities of change off of that. I mean, I'm still saying "things have changed", just "it's not likely to change in that direction given what we know".

    It was mentioned that there was a large portion that went unexplored by players in game. Is it possible that this portion could hold swamps or forests?

    A significant portion of the unexplored regions of Cantha were either cityscapes or mountains, so there's not a lot of viable landscape to be swamps or forests.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Dustfinger.9510Dustfinger.9510 Member ✭✭
    edited April 16, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    It's not really in-lore though, You're creating a theory based on a theory based on an assumption. The theories you're suggestion would require:

    Considering the lack of updated Canthan lore, this is all we can do, no? We are exploring the realm of possibilities within the realm of possible lore. You and I disagree on what constitutes "likely" or "unlikely" but the discussion is working solidly within the possibilities due to the lack of alternative options that confirmed Canthan information would give us.

    • Cantha's isolation across sea borders to be as poor as along earth borders here.

    Considering the tech level of the world and using the current playable races as a baseline, it doesn't seem unreasonable.

    • For hylek to both want to and be capable of making the trek.

    Or Canthans to make the trek. But either, doesn't seem unreasonable.

    • For them to remain undetected or at least "not exterminated" after x-many years.

    Considering the tech level of the world and using the current playable races as a baseline, it doesn't seem unreasonable. Especially if they are seen as "animals" rather than "people".

    • That there is hospitable environment for them in the unexplored portions of Cantha.

    Assuming there isn't would be the greater assumption. So, not unreasonable.

    • And then to build a scenario with all the above to justify a player-crafted elite specialization.

    While clearly it is not impossible, it's also pretty clearly exceedingly unlikely.
    I'm not holding onto the notion that Cantha hasn't changed from Factions. I mean, it very clearly has. I'm rather talking about this one specific notion of hylek suddenly showing up in Cantha, given the lore from both pre, during, and post-GW1's era.

    Disagree. Nothing there is unreasonable or unlikely. The combination there of is also not unlikely. You're using an arguement that equates to "gamescale = lore". That, becasue we didn't see hylek in the first game, there can't have been any. But this is flawed in the same way charr got new horn options without needing new lore for those options. Canthan lore did not say there were no hylek. Current lore also does not specifically state this either. It only holds the possibility that they don't while also holding the possibility that they do.

    Wouldn't really call that being a purist or conservative, since I'm just looking at what's established, and stipulating the possibilities of change off of that. I mean, I'm still saying "things have changed", just "it's not likely to change in that direction given what we know".

    We know very little. Since we know "very little", the possibilities of what direction Cantha has taken is proportionally increased to "very much".

    A significant portion of the unexplored regions of Cantha were either cityscapes or mountains, so there's not a lot of viable landscape to be swamps or forests.

    Mountains often contain forests though. Mountain have valleys which also often contain forests.

    imgur.com/a/jWcfvLz

    We've actually seen very little of Cantha

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Point about the terrain: we've seen Hylek and variations of Hylek -- Nuhoc and Itzel in Maguuma, Heket in Kourna -- all across Tyria and south into Elona. The Zintl Hylek were aggressively expanding west from Central Tyria through the Silverwastes into Maguuma proper trying to convert and/or conquer the Hylek tribes there. As someone said, anywhere there is swamp or jungle, there potentially are Hylek. And as their presence in Kourna and Silverwastes shows, even deserts aren't an insurmountable obstacle to Hylek migration.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2020

    They are described as a Tyrian Frogman Species so I would assume until other information comes along to prove otherwise that they are only native to the Tyrian continent.
    I think they were only found in the Tarnished Coast and Elona back in Gw1.

    That said though species migrating to and from Cantha isn't unheard of before, Humans, Asura, Tengu and Dredge have all migrated too/from Cantha in the past through various means.
    The Dredge in particular dug a tunnel from the Shiverpeaks to the Echovald Forest, and there is an inactive Asura Gate somewhere underground in the Canthan region which proves they too have been in that area of the world though I do not know if they ever came to the Canthan surface.

    As Randulf said though we never got to explore all of Cantha, We saw less than 50% of the continent in Gw1 and explored even less in terms of map locations.
    I made this mock up map a while back to give some idea on how much of the Canthan map we got to see back in Gw1 vs the continent we can see in Gw2, i'm not saying it's 100% accurate but as a general idea it's sufficient.

    As you can see there is a lot of unexplored territory south of familiar locations and who knows what could be living down there.
    It's my hope that going back there in Gw2 we'll finally get to see some of these new places as well as many old ones too.

  • I'm pretty sure the way Canthan will go is they will welcome the human players and tell the other races to turn around or die. I could totally see us actually going to where the races were banished to and that would have some Canthan architecture in it to feel like home for them. Later I can see us trying to help create a truce between humans and non humans even though I doubt that will happen since I don't think the non humans trust the humans anymore.

  • @Silvercyclone.1462 said:
    I'm pretty sure the way Canthan will go is they will welcome the human players and tell the other races to turn around or die. I could totally see us actually going to where the races were banished to and that would have some Canthan architecture in it to feel like home for them. Later I can see us trying to help create a truce between humans and non humans even though I doubt that will happen since I don't think the non humans trust the humans anymore.

    I wouldn't be too sure about the first part of you suggestion, Anet hasn't included significant narrative differences between the player races since the Personal Story, and I'm hardly inclined to think they'd make one story for human characters and a different one for the other four.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @Silvercyclone.1462 said:
    I'm pretty sure the way Canthan will go is they will welcome the human players and tell the other races to turn around or die. I could totally see us actually going to where the races were banished to and that would have some Canthan architecture in it to feel like home for them. Later I can see us trying to help create a truce between humans and non humans even though I doubt that will happen since I don't think the non humans trust the humans anymore.

    I wouldn't be too sure about the first part of you suggestion, Anet hasn't included significant narrative differences between the player races since the Personal Story, and I'm hardly inclined to think they'd make one story for human characters and a different one for the other four.

    If we do actually go to Cantha then Anet would basically be going against the lore of that area. causing major discrepancies. The Tengu don't trust Tyrians because of what happened in Cantha so there is no reason why the other races would trust Canthans so easily for them to be there.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's unlikely we'll see much other than humans due to their blatant genocidal racism which is the foundation of the canthan nation now. There might be naga left, maybe some wardens and potentially oni and creatures/fauna. But as for anything like hylek/tengu I find it likely they were exterminated or chased out. Naga might only of survived due to them not being afraid to completely wipe out portions of the canthans and being at least semi-armed. But again its highly likely they too were wiped out.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    It's unlikely we'll see much other than humans due to their blatant genocidal racism which is the foundation of the canthan nation now. There might be naga left, maybe some wardens and potentially oni and creatures/fauna. But as for anything like hylek/tengu I find it likely they were exterminated or chased out. Naga might only of survived due to them not being afraid to completely wipe out portions of the canthans and being at least semi-armed. But again its highly likely they too were wiped out.

    You are misunderstanding what I am asking for.
    I am asking if it is possible in the lore that Hylek used to live in Cantha. It doesn't matter for me if we will actually meet them in Cantha for the expansion.

    I was asking, because I have an idea for an elite spec for the engineer and it would help for the background story of that elite spec if there have been Hylek in Cantha, which got captured and enslaved for their alchemical knowledge by the ministry of purity.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    It's unlikely we'll see much other than humans due to their blatant genocidal racism which is the foundation of the canthan nation now. There might be naga left, maybe some wardens and potentially oni and creatures/fauna. But as for anything like hylek/tengu I find it likely they were exterminated or chased out. Naga might only of survived due to them not being afraid to completely wipe out portions of the canthans and being at least semi-armed. But again its highly likely they too were wiped out.

    You are misunderstanding what I am asking for.
    I am asking if it is possible in the lore that Hylek used to live in Cantha. It doesn't matter for me if we will actually meet them in Cantha for the expansion.

    I was asking, because I have an idea for an elite spec for the engineer and it would help for the background story of that elite spec if there have been Hylek in Cantha, which got captured and enslaved for their alchemical knowledge by the ministry of purity.

    I don't recall ever seeing Hylek or frog like people there.. They had kappa though which were semi-intelligent turtle people. (Like the actual legends kinda) and they had some other reptilian races such as naga and maybe one other in the forested area. But as far as I Recall there were no frogs. Actually yea we never so frog people in cantha and there were almost exclusively from what I Remember In Elona/Eye of the north(The regions where the asura were..)

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hylek Wiki Says they are primarily a mainland race. So now as of this moment they did not exist there.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Heket#Hylek Guild wars 1 states they were Primarily in the tarnished coast, Elonan regions and the depths.

    I hope this helped.

  • @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    I don't recall ever seeing Hylek or frog like people there.. They had kappa though which were semi-intelligent turtle people. (Like the actual legends kinda) and they had some other reptilian races such as naga and maybe one other in the forested area. But as far as I Recall there were no frogs. Actually yea we never so frog people in cantha and there were almost exclusively from what I Remember In Elona/Eye of the north(The regions where the asura were..)

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hylek Wiki Says they are primarily a mainland race. So now as of this moment they did not exist there.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Heket#Hylek Guild wars 1 states they were Primarily in the tarnished coast, Elonan regions and the depths.

    I hope this helped.

    Tbf: we saw only a small portion of Cantha hundreds of years ago. And the description of "primarily" existing on the mainland inherently holds the option to exist anywhere else besides the mainland. Just, not in the same numbers as in the mainland.

    Since we saw so little of Cantha, it'd be like saying that not seeing wolves (or any other NPC) in a starting area of any region means they can't exist in any of the later maps of the region.

    There's just simply nothing eliminating the possibility or even making it extremely unlikely since so much of Cantha went unexplored by the PC. It means that the vast majority of Cantha can hold absolutely anything A-net would want to be there, in almost any proportions, and it wouldn't be lore breaking.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 8, 2020

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    I don't recall ever seeing Hylek or frog like people there.. They had kappa though which were semi-intelligent turtle people. (Like the actual legends kinda) and they had some other reptilian races such as naga and maybe one other in the forested area. But as far as I Recall there were no frogs. Actually yea we never so frog people in cantha and there were almost exclusively from what I Remember In Elona/Eye of the north(The regions where the asura were..)

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hylek Wiki Says they are primarily a mainland race. So now as of this moment they did not exist there.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Heket#Hylek Guild wars 1 states they were Primarily in the tarnished coast, Elonan regions and the depths.

    I hope this helped.

    Tbf: we saw only a small portion of Cantha hundreds of years ago. And the description of "primarily" existing on the mainland inherently holds the option to exist anywhere else besides the mainland. Just, not in the same numbers as in the mainland.

    Since we saw so little of Cantha, it'd be like saying that not seeing wolves (or any other NPC) in a starting area of any region means they can't exist in any of the later maps of the region.

    There's just simply nothing eliminating the possibility or even making it extremely unlikely since so much of Cantha went unexplored by the PC. It means that the vast majority of Cantha can hold absolutely anything A-net would want to be there, in almost any proportions, and it wouldn't be lore breaking.

    This is true... but I actually kinda like the idea of stumbling acrossed the un-buried skeletons and destroyed settlements at some point. Showing just how far cantha's leaders went to exterminate the non-humans. Would really set up the emperor to be a enemy.... hopefully then we can have a human enemy who is around longer than like a small appearance in one, and an episode where they went nuts Coughs in Caudecus

  • @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    This is true... but I actually kinda like the idea of stumbling acrossed the un-buried skeletons and destroyed settlements at some point. Showing just how far cantha's leaders went to exterminate the non-humans. Would really set up the emperor to be a enemy.... hopefully then we can have a human enemy who is around longer than like a small appearance in one, and an episode where they went nuts Coughs in Caudecus

    I think we can have something like that no matter what. Picture every Terminator movie that shows the future when the machines have taken over and sought to exterminate humanity. Bones and skulls are everywhere while pockets of humanity scurry around like vermin, hiding in holes in order to survive.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    This is true... but I actually kinda like the idea of stumbling acrossed the un-buried skeletons and destroyed settlements at some point. Showing just how far cantha's leaders went to exterminate the non-humans. Would really set up the emperor to be a enemy.... hopefully then we can have a human enemy who is around longer than like a small appearance in one, and an episode where they went nuts Coughs in Caudecus

    I think we can have something like that no matter what. Picture every Terminator movie that shows the future when the machines have taken over and sought to exterminate humanity. Bones and skulls are everywhere while pockets of humanity scurry around like vermin, hiding in holes in order to survive.

    Id like that, love it more for my norn to just be like "Guess imma have to kill a world leader. Nice thing to add to my list of feats.... the mists will def have to hire me when I die now.."

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    This is true... but I actually kinda like the idea of stumbling acrossed the un-buried skeletons and destroyed settlements at some point. Showing just how far cantha's leaders went to exterminate the non-humans. Would really set up the emperor to be a enemy.... hopefully then we can have a human enemy who is around longer than like a small appearance in one, and an episode where they went nuts Coughs in Caudecus

    I think we can have something like that no matter what. Picture every Terminator movie that shows the future when the machines have taken over and sought to exterminate humanity. Bones and skulls are everywhere while pockets of humanity scurry around like vermin, hiding in holes in order to survive.

    Id like that, love it more for my norn to just be like "Guess imma have to kill a world leader. Nice thing to add to my list of feats.... the mists will def have to hire me when I die now.."

    Didn't we kinda already do that by killing Palawa Joko?
    Which also should count for your wish of a human antagonist. Palawa Joko was undead, but he was human as it seems.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    This is true... but I actually kinda like the idea of stumbling acrossed the un-buried skeletons and destroyed settlements at some point. Showing just how far cantha's leaders went to exterminate the non-humans. Would really set up the emperor to be a enemy.... hopefully then we can have a human enemy who is around longer than like a small appearance in one, and an episode where they went nuts Coughs in Caudecus

    I think we can have something like that no matter what. Picture every Terminator movie that shows the future when the machines have taken over and sought to exterminate humanity. Bones and skulls are everywhere while pockets of humanity scurry around like vermin, hiding in holes in order to survive.

    Id like that, love it more for my norn to just be like "Guess imma have to kill a world leader. Nice thing to add to my list of feats.... the mists will def have to hire me when I die now.."

    Didn't we kinda already do that by killing Palawa Joko?
    Which also should count for your wish of a human antagonist. Palawa Joko was undead, but he was human as it seems.

    I mean a living human, joko was always kinda warped in his own way. I do not want another expansion where we are welcomed by all and made out to be a hero, I want the canthans to hate us. Revile us and honestly want us all dead; I have love for cantha but given how they are against anything non human in the lore I just can't see them willingly accept the majority of the races we play.

  • Poormany.4507Poormany.4507 Member ✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    I don't recall ever seeing Hylek or frog like people there.. They had kappa though which were semi-intelligent turtle people. (Like the actual legends kinda) and they had some other reptilian races such as naga and maybe one other in the forested area. But as far as I Recall there were no frogs. Actually yea we never so frog people in cantha and there were almost exclusively from what I Remember In Elona/Eye of the north(The regions where the asura were..)

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hylek Wiki Says they are primarily a mainland race. So now as of this moment they did not exist there.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Heket#Hylek Guild wars 1 states they were Primarily in the tarnished coast, Elonan regions and the depths.

    I hope this helped.

    Tbf: we saw only a small portion of Cantha hundreds of years ago. And the description of "primarily" existing on the mainland inherently holds the option to exist anywhere else besides the mainland. Just, not in the same numbers as in the mainland.

    Since we saw so little of Cantha, it'd be like saying that not seeing wolves (or any other NPC) in a starting area of any region means they can't exist in any of the later maps of the region.

    There's just simply nothing eliminating the possibility or even making it extremely unlikely since so much of Cantha went unexplored by the PC. It means that the vast majority of Cantha can hold absolutely anything A-net would want to be there, in almost any proportions, and it wouldn't be lore breaking.

    This is true... but I actually kinda like the idea of stumbling acrossed the un-buried skeletons and destroyed settlements at some point. Showing just how far cantha's leaders went to exterminate the non-humans. Would really set up the emperor to be a enemy.... hopefully then we can have a human enemy who is around longer than like a small appearance in one, and an episode where they went nuts Coughs in Caudecus

    If we're going to Shing-Jea, as the concept art suggests, we'll probably see the ruins of Aerie (the main Tengu settlement on Shing-Jea in GW1 that was evacuated at the end of Winds of Change), as that was almost certainly destroyed afterwards.

    I do think there is a possibility that we'll see some kind of Hylek variant or other races in areas that were not explored in GW1 or other inaccessible areas that were not able to be settled by humans (maybe even beneath the now melted Jade Sea?). I would expect for at least a few of the original races in Cantha to have evaded capture by going into hiding.