1 dodge in WVW is just.... terrible — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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1 dodge in WVW is just.... terrible

scerevisiae.1972scerevisiae.1972 Member ✭✭✭

I'm not a main mesmer, but i like the class and would like to play it more.

I don't do sPVP or PVE at all, only WVW (because PVP in WVW >>> standingincirclesPVP).

Power mirage was not a thing in WVW even before the dodge nerf. The dmg was comparable to other similarly-geared powered classes vs single targets, but quite a lot lower in a ZvZ situation. Area dmg almost entirely came from Infinite Horizon spam, which requires dodges.

After the dodge nerf, survivability is way down (was low already), and damage is close to half, even with perfect positioning does not even make the top 10 in the DPS list now despite sacrificing all survivability for max damage.

It feels... terrible.

I will be the first to agree that dodge-stunbreak GM trait was too strong but that's all that needed addressing. If anything i'd have said mirage would be justified in having a 3rd dodge, with dodge-related traits slightly downtuned to match, as dodging is the spec-class's main mechanic.

You really can't leave mirage with 1 dodge, without compensating without e.g. doubling the effect of vigour for mirages. It just sucks. As a former game dev myself I don't like to criticise game studios for baance decisions as they're the ones with the data but this particular change seems very unwarranted.

<13

Comments

  • Koen.1327Koen.1327 Member ✭✭✭

    3 dodges on mirage thats a good one
    rly if anything its ok for wvw since u got 50 on energy and endurance food - and the ih build you mention already has perm vigor

    would just use shatter build also pretty immortal still you shouldnt really die on it

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ansau.7326 said:
    As someone who has mained mesmer since gw2 launch, I've realized there is a thing with anet not being comfortable with mesmers staying relevant in big scale fights. At the beggining we had glamour confusion build but it was destroyed like 6 months after game release. Later we had boonshare but it only lasted less than a year until it became subpar. And finally we had minstrel mantra chrono which was also destroyed 1 year after it was born.

    But beyond that, in the recent years anet has taken a very dull and toxic approach to balance mesmer by adding huge trade offs, and the worst part is it seems anet doesn't has any intention to revert it. Mesmer is doomed to live with trade off mechanics that work against its main ones.

    • Core: Overnerfed core specs because elites "are" too strong.
    • Chrono: No IP in an elite based on shatters.
    • Mirage: 1 dodge in an elite based on dodges.

    In Vanilla, mesmer was one of the hardest classes to play, with complex damage setups but without any of the passive sustain most other professions had (clone death build was the exception, but an exclusive WvW dueling build has never been relevant for anet or gw2).

    With HoT and new trait system based on specs, anet finally put mesmer in a similar level as the rest. Suddenly, the community realized mesmer being equal as others was not ok and the doom of mesmer began.
    Happened with chrono at the beggining (apparently it was ok for druids, scrappers and guards to be unkillable tanks but not chrono), happened with mirage (apparently it was ok for thiefs and weavers to jump and evade through everything but not for mirages), and happened for core power mesmer (it is ok for thieves, soulbeasts and holos to cc+oneshot you from stealth with 2-3 skills but not for mesmers when you burn half of your skill set).

    This unreasonable drama reaction has led anet to act like they did. They cannot balance mesmer in a sensible way because the community doesn't want a balanced mesmer, they are only fine as long as mesmer is nerfed. Unfortunately, when this trend and behavior extends for years, surprise surprise, that's what we end up with.

    Once you have experience with several profession you realize how much higher the bar is set for mesmer compared to others. How much you need to chain skills and mechanics to achieve mediocre results, when others is 1 button = 8k AoE damage or speading condis faster than covid. And how your sustain is entirely based on limited evades and the few invuls/blocks that are easily outplayed, when others is let me show you how I spend 20s chaining evades/invuls/blocks or how my sustained healing beats your DPS.

    My suggestion, forget about mesmer and have fun with anything else.

    The thing with mirage is that theoretically, you can chain evades by utilising the mirage mirrors, which should have been a thematical focal point for the mirage from the very beginning.

    I can see how this trade off of having just 1 dodge seems contradictionary for an espec that gets benefits from dodges, but you have additional sources for these dodges available for you if you choose to use them.

    They did the same for Scrapper. People were questioning why Anet installed a second trade off (first trade off is replacing your F5 skill with the function gyro) by giving scrappers a 180 malus on vitality. They reduced the total health on an elite spec that is about tankiness. It still made sense, tho, since they added the mechanic to convert 15% of your strike damage to barrier. As long as you keep hitting stuff, you will end up tankier in the end through the constant influx of barriers.

    Mirage is basically the same here. Yes, it gets benefits from dodges. But you are able to chain more dodges than the base mesmer if you choose to use the tools available to you. Reducing the dodges can counterweight the additional ability to create additional dodges.

  • Ansau.7326Ansau.7326 Member ✭✭✭

    @Heartpains.7312 said:

    @Ansau.7326 said:
    As someone who has mained mesmer since gw2 launch, I've realized there is a thing with anet not being comfortable with mesmers staying relevant in big scale fights. At the beggining we had glamour confusion build but it was destroyed like 6 months after game release. Later we had boonshare but it only lasted less than a year until it became subpar. And finally we had minstrel mantra chrono which was also destroyed 1 year after it was born.

    But beyond that, in the recent years anet has taken a very dull and toxic approach to balance mesmer by adding huge trade offs, and the worst part is it seems anet doesn't has any intention to revert it. Mesmer is doomed to live with trade off mechanics that work against its main ones.

    • Core: Overnerfed core specs because elites "are" too strong.
    • Chrono: No IP in an elite based on shatters.
    • Mirage: 1 dodge in an elite based on dodges.

    In Vanilla, mesmer was one of the hardest classes to play, with complex damage setups but without any of the passive sustain most other professions had (clone death build was the exception, but an exclusive WvW dueling build has never been relevant for anet or gw2).

    With HoT and new trait system based on specs, anet finally put mesmer in a similar level as the rest. Suddenly, the community realized mesmer being equal as others was not ok and the doom of mesmer began.
    Happened with chrono at the beggining (apparently it was ok for druids, scrappers and guards to be unkillable tanks but not chrono), happened with mirage (apparently it was ok for thiefs and weavers to jump and evade through everything but not for mirages), and happened for core power mesmer (it is ok for thieves, soulbeasts and holos to cc+oneshot you from stealth with 2-3 skills but not for mesmers when you burn half of your skill set).

    This unreasonable drama reaction has led anet to act like they did. They cannot balance mesmer in a sensible way because the community doesn't want a balanced mesmer, they are only fine as long as mesmer is nerfed. Unfortunately, when this trend and behavior extends for years, surprise surprise, that's what we end up with.

    Once you have experience with several profession you realize how much higher the bar is set for mesmer compared to others. How much you need to chain skills and mechanics to achieve mediocre results, when others is 1 button = 8k AoE damage or speading condis faster than covid. And how your sustain is entirely based on limited evades and the few invuls/blocks that are easily outplayed, when others is let me show you how I spend 20s chaining evades/invuls/blocks or how my sustained healing beats your DPS.

    My suggestion, forget about mesmer and have fun with anything else.

    well said while trying to keep it short =)

    I do remember you Ansau, but why do I have the feeling that I haven't see you here for a while, add for the things you have added it was okay for some classes to be immune to cc, but mirage to break stun with grandmaster trait was too much.

    Yeah, after chrono butchering I was too annoyed to care anymore about gw2 good end and started to play less. With the lockdown I'm playing again, but sitting on a scrapper and rev instead, mesmer is too depressing even in pve.
    Checked gw2efficiency time played and holy cow...

    RIP Chrono 10/2015 - 07/2019
    RIP Mirage 07/2017 - 02/2020

  • Yoci.2481Yoci.2481 Member ✭✭✭

    @scerevisiae.1972 said:
    As a former game dev myself I don't like to criticise game studios for baance decisions as they're the ones with the data but this particular change seems very unwarranted.

    You can't argue with data, and the data says at least one person is still playing Mesmer in WvW. That warrants a big nerf with coming with the next balance patch.

  • Mesmer is no fun in wvw anymore. Been trying to make mirage work in wvw but it doesn’t work. Lack defense, already squishy, other class can so easily outsustain you without even trying. Mirage is probably the worst elite spec to play in wvw currently. It even beats druid.
    If anyone find something viable to play then do post on forums, will give it a try.

  • Heartpains.7312Heartpains.7312 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leap Of Faith.8263 said:
    Mesmer is no fun in wvw anymore. Been trying to make mirage work in wvw but it doesn’t work. Lack defense, already squishy, other class can so easily outsustain you without even trying. Mirage is probably the worst elite spec to play in wvw currently. It even beats druid.
    If anyone find something viable to play then do post on forums, will give it a try.

    I tried to make it work a bit in the little time that i tried to play, and you know how much I spend time playing mesmer, let it be, they don't want you to play chrono or mirage =p

    Core is next if that is playable xD

  • Heartpains.7312Heartpains.7312 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yoci.2481 said:

    You can't argue with data, and the data says at least one person is still playing Mesmer in WvW. That warrants a big nerf with coming with the next balance patch.

    A 50% nerf isn't it? =D

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArlAlt.1630 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Ansau.7326 said:
    As someone who has mained mesmer since gw2 launch, I've realized there is a thing with anet not being comfortable with mesmers staying relevant in big scale fights. At the beggining we had glamour confusion build but it was destroyed like 6 months after game release. Later we had boonshare but it only lasted less than a year until it became subpar. And finally we had minstrel mantra chrono which was also destroyed 1 year after it was born.

    But beyond that, in the recent years anet has taken a very dull and toxic approach to balance mesmer by adding huge trade offs, and the worst part is it seems anet doesn't has any intention to revert it. Mesmer is doomed to live with trade off mechanics that work against its main ones.

    • Core: Overnerfed core specs because elites "are" too strong.
    • Chrono: No IP in an elite based on shatters.
    • Mirage: 1 dodge in an elite based on dodges.

    In Vanilla, mesmer was one of the hardest classes to play, with complex damage setups but without any of the passive sustain most other professions had (clone death build was the exception, but an exclusive WvW dueling build has never been relevant for anet or gw2).

    With HoT and new trait system based on specs, anet finally put mesmer in a similar level as the rest. Suddenly, the community realized mesmer being equal as others was not ok and the doom of mesmer began.
    Happened with chrono at the beggining (apparently it was ok for druids, scrappers and guards to be unkillable tanks but not chrono), happened with mirage (apparently it was ok for thiefs and weavers to jump and evade through everything but not for mirages), and happened for core power mesmer (it is ok for thieves, soulbeasts and holos to cc+oneshot you from stealth with 2-3 skills but not for mesmers when you burn half of your skill set).

    This unreasonable drama reaction has led anet to act like they did. They cannot balance mesmer in a sensible way because the community doesn't want a balanced mesmer, they are only fine as long as mesmer is nerfed. Unfortunately, when this trend and behavior extends for years, surprise surprise, that's what we end up with.

    Once you have experience with several profession you realize how much higher the bar is set for mesmer compared to others. How much you need to chain skills and mechanics to achieve mediocre results, when others is 1 button = 8k AoE damage or speading condis faster than covid. And how your sustain is entirely based on limited evades and the few invuls/blocks that are easily outplayed, when others is let me show you how I spend 20s chaining evades/invuls/blocks or how my sustained healing beats your DPS.

    My suggestion, forget about mesmer and have fun with anything else.

    The thing with mirage is that theoretically, you can chain evades by utilising the mirage mirrors, which should have been a thematical focal point for the mirage from the very beginning.

    I can see how this trade off of having just 1 dodge seems contradictionary for an espec that gets benefits from dodges, but you have additional sources for these dodges available for you if you choose to use them.

    They did the same for Scrapper. People were questioning why Anet installed a second trade off (first trade off is replacing your F5 skill with the function gyro) by giving scrappers a 180 malus on vitality. They reduced the total health on an elite spec that is about tankiness. It still made sense, tho, since they added the mechanic to convert 15% of your strike damage to barrier. As long as you keep hitting stuff, you will end up tankier in the end through the constant influx of barriers.

    Mirage is basically the same here. Yes, it gets benefits from dodges. But you are able to chain more dodges than the base mesmer if you choose to use the tools available to you. Reducing the dodges can counterweight the additional ability to create additional dodges.

    If you think the Mirrors are a good or even usable mechanic, I got a bridge to sell you.
    Mirrors are the epitome of poorly designed mechanic whose only purpose is to flash more purple and butterflies, because Gaile or Ruby or whoever had a thing for flashy butterflies. It's a counter intuitive, steaming pile of kitten.

    True.
    Mirrors are only on game because devs saw the mirror design and thought it looked awesome - A kitten rhombus...

    The degenerate

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    Honestly, they should really just switch nomad’s endurance with infinite horizon.

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2020

    I'm gonna have to stick my neck on the line regarding mirrors - I kind of like them. Guaranteed weakness proc (unlike rng chaos armour), and can delay access to evade for when needed. And I'm also a huge skritt/magpie for visual effects, which mirrors don't fail to deliver on.

    I believe all Deceptions aside from IA (which already has built in cloak) should spawn a mirror. Jaunt should spawn at previous location prior to teleport (strengthening in location evade access, but not in a line when running), Mirage Advance should spawn at previous location (so when you Retreat and detarget, you hit the mirror as well).


    Regarding EM - problem now is, if we had 2 dodges returned this would be absolutely overpowered condi cleanse with 2 per dodge. It's also the stupidest trait redesign, in that it is the most uncreative and boring grandmaster major trait I can think of - only cleanse on dodge... like wow, that really excites me... :/ If they give 2 dodges back, then they should also change this trait once again.


    Simply, IH should be baseline GM minor trait. There's nothing else to be said here that hasn't been said over what is soon going to be 3 years. It will make mirrors more impactful for all mirage builds (triggering clone evade and ambush), it will make all mirage builds more thematically consistent, and allow the whole spec to be balanced around it - rebalancing all clone ambushes and shifting appropriate amount of damage to player. Speed of Sand should be merged in baseline mirage cloak function.

    Nomad's Endurance should absolutely be 2s vigour now. Also we mustn't ignore it gives 150 condi damage with vigour - ie 5 stacks of might worth of condi damage. Perhaps this could be changed to not be skewed to either condi or power. Otherwise vigour is giving big buff to condi, which also can build for more of it through Chaos, but not doing much for power.


    Anyway, if Anet wants me to play TB/Dire/Rabid/etc cheese, then so be it. /shrug

    My ears, how are you! | Hammer Mesmer - elite spec concept.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2020

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    I'm gonna have to stick my neck on the line regarding mirrors - I kind of like them. Guaranteed weakness proc (unlike rng chaos armour), and can delay access to evade for when needed. And I'm also a huge skritt/magpie for visual effects, which mirrors don't fail to deliver on.

    I believe all Deceptions aside from IA (which already has built in cloak) should spawn a mirror. Jaunt should spawn at previous location prior to teleport (strengthening in location evade access, but not in a line when running), Mirage Advance should spawn at previous location (so when you Retreat and detarget, you hit the mirror as well).


    Regarding EM - problem now is, if we had 2 dodges returned this would be absolutely overpowered condi cleanse with 2 per dodge. It's also the stupidest trait redesign, in that it is the most uncreative and boring grandmaster major trait I can think of - only cleanse on dodge... like wow, that really excites me... :/ If they give 2 dodges back, then they should also change this trait once again.


    Simply, IH should be baseline GM minor trait. There's nothing else to be said here that hasn't been said over what is soon going to be 3 years. It will make mirrors more impactful for all mirage builds (triggering clone evade and ambush), it will make all mirage builds more thematically consistent, and allow the whole spec to be balanced around it - rebalancing all clone ambushes and shifting appropriate amount of damage to player. Speed of Sand should be merged in baseline mirage cloak function.

    Nomad's Endurance should absolutely be 2s vigour now. Also we mustn't ignore it gives 150 condi damage with vigour - ie 5 stacks of might worth of condi damage. Perhaps this could be changed to not be skewed to either condi or power. Otherwise vigour is giving big buff to condi, which also can build for more of it through Chaos, but not doing much for power.


    Anyway, if Anet wants me to play TB/Dire/Rabid/etc cheese, then so be it. /shrug

    Mirrors are awful because you can't control where they spawn and have to run/teleport to them, this make you predictable and makes you either waste time or a resource to get them. While your suggestions improve them they don't solve their issue.
    There were several suggestions how to make mirrors good since pof released.
    On top of mind make mirrors do damage if enemy passes through it. Make them get you a point automatically (kind of like clones dot thing) and you F5 to use them.
    (can't remember who suggested these ones, sorry).

    As for visual effects I disagree, it's a rhombus that shatters, nothing special about it.

    The degenerate

  • pninak.1069pninak.1069 Member ✭✭✭

    you'd be surprised how many players won't actually stop you from reaching them. I just think it has no real use in pvp. I just looked a vid yesterday and in it you had a pmirage that uses mantras and blink. I think they got no place in pvp, because a lot more people are aware of them.

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2020

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    I'm gonna have to stick my neck on the line regarding mirrors - I kind of like them. Guaranteed weakness proc (unlike rng chaos armour), and can delay access to evade for when needed. And I'm also a huge skritt/magpie for visual effects, which mirrors don't fail to deliver on.

    I believe all Deceptions aside from IA (which already has built in cloak) should spawn a mirror. Jaunt should spawn at previous location prior to teleport (strengthening in location evade access, but not in a line when running), Mirage Advance should spawn at previous location (so when you Retreat and detarget, you hit the mirror as well).


    Regarding EM - problem now is, if we had 2 dodges returned this would be absolutely overpowered condi cleanse with 2 per dodge. It's also the stupidest trait redesign, in that it is the most uncreative and boring grandmaster major trait I can think of - only cleanse on dodge... like wow, that really excites me... :/ If they give 2 dodges back, then they should also change this trait once again.


    Simply, IH should be baseline GM minor trait. There's nothing else to be said here that hasn't been said over what is soon going to be 3 years. It will make mirrors more impactful for all mirage builds (triggering clone evade and ambush), it will make all mirage builds more thematically consistent, and allow the whole spec to be balanced around it - rebalancing all clone ambushes and shifting appropriate amount of damage to player. Speed of Sand should be merged in baseline mirage cloak function.

    Nomad's Endurance should absolutely be 2s vigour now. Also we mustn't ignore it gives 150 condi damage with vigour - ie 5 stacks of might worth of condi damage. Perhaps this could be changed to not be skewed to either condi or power. Otherwise vigour is giving big buff to condi, which also can build for more of it through Chaos, but not doing much for power.


    Anyway, if Anet wants me to play TB/Dire/Rabid/etc cheese, then so be it. /shrug

    Mirrors are awful because you can't control where they spawn and have to run/teleport to them, this make you predictable and makes you either waste time or a resource to get them. While your suggestions improve them they don't solve their issue.
    There were several suggestions how to make mirrors good since pof released.
    On top of mind make mirrors do damage if enemy passes through it. Make them get you a point automatically (kind of like clones dot thing) and you F5 to use them.
    (can't remember who suggested these ones, sorry).

    As for visual effects I disagree, it's a rhombus that shatters, nothing special about it.

    Tbh the only mirrors you can't control are the ones from Desert Distortion. The problem aside from that is Crystal Sands is very weak for an offensive skill (should do far more damage at least), and False Oasis only has value from the mirror in a stationary fight (due to 3s spawn delay). I think StG is actually decent in the current state of the game, though they could have maybe left it on 25s cooldown rather than increase to 30s.
    Jaunt nerfs have also had a harmful effect on existence of mirrors - when playing mirage in pve it's crazy how much you can port around all over the place.

    Having said that, oddly there are very few mirrors on the spec at all - more like a small addition rather than core feature of the spec. So in that way things could be left as they are and still re-buff normal endurance/dodge access because it's not like mirage would suddenly have "perma evade111!!" with how few mirrors there are.
    I think Desert Distortion is a weird gimmick trait that potentially should be reconsidered.

    Regarding F5, after Chrono, can't see any mesmer spec getting an F5. And tbh I prefer keeping same number of keybindings between specs.
    Hmm, well I like the shatter visual and sound from the mirror - is satisfying and fun both aurally and visually.

    Not sure if I'd want enemies to be able to trigger mirrors - unless there is severe penalty for doing so, eg cc and damage, or triggering all clones to ambush, maybe direct endurance refund, otherwise the enemy can plan to tank damage and remove potential evades to continue pressure. But I do recognise the downsides to mirrors in terms of positioning and predictability - so possibly this could work as:

    • Enemies can break mirrors but doing so will give you and all clones mirage cloak (assuming IH baseline minor) and refund 25 endurance (so you soon have a dodge available).
    • If you break the mirror directly you only get mirage cloak as normal.

    Maybe breaking a mirror should apply aoe daze? Just throwing ideas out.

    My ears, how are you! | Hammer Mesmer - elite spec concept.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    I'm gonna have to stick my neck on the line regarding mirrors - I kind of like them. Guaranteed weakness proc (unlike rng chaos armour), and can delay access to evade for when needed. And I'm also a huge skritt/magpie for visual effects, which mirrors don't fail to deliver on.

    I believe all Deceptions aside from IA (which already has built in cloak) should spawn a mirror. Jaunt should spawn at previous location prior to teleport (strengthening in location evade access, but not in a line when running), Mirage Advance should spawn at previous location (so when you Retreat and detarget, you hit the mirror as well).


    Regarding EM - problem now is, if we had 2 dodges returned this would be absolutely overpowered condi cleanse with 2 per dodge. It's also the stupidest trait redesign, in that it is the most uncreative and boring grandmaster major trait I can think of - only cleanse on dodge... like wow, that really excites me... :/ If they give 2 dodges back, then they should also change this trait once again.


    Simply, IH should be baseline GM minor trait. There's nothing else to be said here that hasn't been said over what is soon going to be 3 years. It will make mirrors more impactful for all mirage builds (triggering clone evade and ambush), it will make all mirage builds more thematically consistent, and allow the whole spec to be balanced around it - rebalancing all clone ambushes and shifting appropriate amount of damage to player. Speed of Sand should be merged in baseline mirage cloak function.

    Nomad's Endurance should absolutely be 2s vigour now. Also we mustn't ignore it gives 150 condi damage with vigour - ie 5 stacks of might worth of condi damage. Perhaps this could be changed to not be skewed to either condi or power. Otherwise vigour is giving big buff to condi, which also can build for more of it through Chaos, but not doing much for power.


    Anyway, if Anet wants me to play TB/Dire/Rabid/etc cheese, then so be it. /shrug

    Mirrors are awful because you can't control where they spawn and have to run/teleport to them, this make you predictable and makes you either waste time or a resource to get them. While your suggestions improve them they don't solve their issue.
    There were several suggestions how to make mirrors good since pof released.
    On top of mind make mirrors do damage if enemy passes through it. Make them get you a point automatically (kind of like clones dot thing) and you F5 to use them.
    (can't remember who suggested these ones, sorry).

    As for visual effects I disagree, it's a rhombus that shatters, nothing special about it.

    Tbh the only mirrors you can't control are the ones from Desert Distortion. The problem aside from that is Crystal Sands is very weak for an offensive skill (should do far more damage at least), and False Oasis only has value from the mirror in a stationary fight (due to 3s spawn delay). I think StG is actually decent in the current state of the game, though they could have maybe left it on 25s cooldown rather than increase to 30s.
    Jaunt nerfs have also had a harmful effect on existence of mirrors - when playing mirage in pve it's crazy how much you can port around all over the place.

    Having said that, oddly there are very few mirrors on the spec at all - more like a small addition rather than core feature of the spec. So in that way things could be left as they are and still re-buff normal endurance/dodge access because it's not like mirage would suddenly have "perma evade111!!" with how few mirrors there are.
    I think Desert Distortion is a weird gimmick trait that potentially should be reconsidered.

    Regarding F5, after Chrono, can't see any mesmer spec getting an F5. And tbh I prefer keeping same number of keybindings between specs.
    Hmm, well I like the shatter visual and sound from the mirror - is satisfying and fun both aurally and visually.

    Not sure if I'd want enemies to be able to trigger mirrors - unless there is severe penalty for doing so, eg cc and damage, or triggering all clones to ambush, maybe direct endurance refund, otherwise the enemy can plan to tank damage and remove potential evades to continue pressure. But I do recognise the downsides to mirrors in terms of positioning and predictability - so possibly this could work as:

    • Enemies can break mirrors but doing so will give you and all clones mirage cloak (assuming IH baseline minor) and refund 25 endurance (so you soon have a dodge available).
    • If you break the mirror directly you only get mirage cloak as normal.

    Maybe breaking a mirror should apply aoe daze? Just throwing ideas out.

    The only mirrors used are from f4, apart from false oasis who is also bad, like you said stationary.

    As for F5 it's easy, give F5 to every mesmer spec. B)

    Disagree regarding your break mirror suggestion. I mean it should get more benefits if you shatter than if foe break it. Still it would be a throwback to GW1 mesmer:
    If I break the mirror I take damage and deny an evade, if you catch it you get an evade and access to more damage.

    The degenerate

  • pninak.1069pninak.1069 Member ✭✭✭

    yea enemies don't really have a reason to destroy mirrors. it just makes them secondary clones. and why destroy mirrors where you need to attack 3 things at once vs just attacking the main mesmer in order to not giving it the opportunity to trigger them.

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    I'm gonna have to stick my neck on the line regarding mirrors - I kind of like them. Guaranteed weakness proc (unlike rng chaos armour), and can delay access to evade for when needed. And I'm also a huge skritt/magpie for visual effects, which mirrors don't fail to deliver on.

    I believe all Deceptions aside from IA (which already has built in cloak) should spawn a mirror. Jaunt should spawn at previous location prior to teleport (strengthening in location evade access, but not in a line when running), Mirage Advance should spawn at previous location (so when you Retreat and detarget, you hit the mirror as well).


    Regarding EM - problem now is, if we had 2 dodges returned this would be absolutely overpowered condi cleanse with 2 per dodge. It's also the stupidest trait redesign, in that it is the most uncreative and boring grandmaster major trait I can think of - only cleanse on dodge... like wow, that really excites me... :/ If they give 2 dodges back, then they should also change this trait once again.


    Simply, IH should be baseline GM minor trait. There's nothing else to be said here that hasn't been said over what is soon going to be 3 years. It will make mirrors more impactful for all mirage builds (triggering clone evade and ambush), it will make all mirage builds more thematically consistent, and allow the whole spec to be balanced around it - rebalancing all clone ambushes and shifting appropriate amount of damage to player. Speed of Sand should be merged in baseline mirage cloak function.

    Nomad's Endurance should absolutely be 2s vigour now. Also we mustn't ignore it gives 150 condi damage with vigour - ie 5 stacks of might worth of condi damage. Perhaps this could be changed to not be skewed to either condi or power. Otherwise vigour is giving big buff to condi, which also can build for more of it through Chaos, but not doing much for power.


    Anyway, if Anet wants me to play TB/Dire/Rabid/etc cheese, then so be it. /shrug

    Mirrors are awful because you can't control where they spawn and have to run/teleport to them, this make you predictable and makes you either waste time or a resource to get them. While your suggestions improve them they don't solve their issue.
    There were several suggestions how to make mirrors good since pof released.
    On top of mind make mirrors do damage if enemy passes through it. Make them get you a point automatically (kind of like clones dot thing) and you F5 to use them.
    (can't remember who suggested these ones, sorry).

    As for visual effects I disagree, it's a rhombus that shatters, nothing special about it.

    Tbh the only mirrors you can't control are the ones from Desert Distortion. The problem aside from that is Crystal Sands is very weak for an offensive skill (should do far more damage at least), and False Oasis only has value from the mirror in a stationary fight (due to 3s spawn delay). I think StG is actually decent in the current state of the game, though they could have maybe left it on 25s cooldown rather than increase to 30s.
    Jaunt nerfs have also had a harmful effect on existence of mirrors - when playing mirage in pve it's crazy how much you can port around all over the place.

    Having said that, oddly there are very few mirrors on the spec at all - more like a small addition rather than core feature of the spec. So in that way things could be left as they are and still re-buff normal endurance/dodge access because it's not like mirage would suddenly have "perma evade111!!" with how few mirrors there are.
    I think Desert Distortion is a weird gimmick trait that potentially should be reconsidered.

    Regarding F5, after Chrono, can't see any mesmer spec getting an F5. And tbh I prefer keeping same number of keybindings between specs.
    Hmm, well I like the shatter visual and sound from the mirror - is satisfying and fun both aurally and visually.

    Not sure if I'd want enemies to be able to trigger mirrors - unless there is severe penalty for doing so, eg cc and damage, or triggering all clones to ambush, maybe direct endurance refund, otherwise the enemy can plan to tank damage and remove potential evades to continue pressure. But I do recognise the downsides to mirrors in terms of positioning and predictability - so possibly this could work as:

    • Enemies can break mirrors but doing so will give you and all clones mirage cloak (assuming IH baseline minor) and refund 25 endurance (so you soon have a dodge available).
    • If you break the mirror directly you only get mirage cloak as normal.

    Maybe breaking a mirror should apply aoe daze? Just throwing ideas out.

    The only mirrors used are from f4, apart from false oasis who is also bad, like you said stationary.

    As for F5 it's easy, give F5 to every mesmer spec. B)

    Disagree regarding your break mirror suggestion. I mean it should get more benefits if you shatter than if foe break it. Still it would be a throwback to GW1 mesmer:
    If I break the mirror I take damage and deny an evade, if you catch it you get an evade and access to more damage.

    Was thinking to disincentivise the enemy from breaking it (because I think right now if mirrors were suddenly two way breakable, they would be very easy for the enemy to just barge through and continue to pressure in melee), more than for the player to have control over when to break it.

    Haha, sure they'll give F5... and in the process nerf F1, 2, 3 and 4 into dust. :p

    @pninak.1069 said:
    yea enemies don't really have a reason to destroy mirrors. it just makes them secondary clones. and why destroy mirrors where you need to attack 3 things at once vs just attacking the main mesmer in order to not giving it the opportunity to trigger them.

    Well I was only thinking about possibilities in the discussion with Lincolnbeard, though personal feeling is that I prefer them to remain breakable by the mirage only. Unless there is a solid idea otherwise - but I think this would have to come with many other changes, including trait reshuffle, skills etc.

    My ears, how are you! | Hammer Mesmer - elite spec concept.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    I'm gonna have to stick my neck on the line regarding mirrors - I kind of like them. Guaranteed weakness proc (unlike rng chaos armour), and can delay access to evade for when needed. And I'm also a huge skritt/magpie for visual effects, which mirrors don't fail to deliver on.

    I believe all Deceptions aside from IA (which already has built in cloak) should spawn a mirror. Jaunt should spawn at previous location prior to teleport (strengthening in location evade access, but not in a line when running), Mirage Advance should spawn at previous location (so when you Retreat and detarget, you hit the mirror as well).


    Regarding EM - problem now is, if we had 2 dodges returned this would be absolutely overpowered condi cleanse with 2 per dodge. It's also the stupidest trait redesign, in that it is the most uncreative and boring grandmaster major trait I can think of - only cleanse on dodge... like wow, that really excites me... :/ If they give 2 dodges back, then they should also change this trait once again.


    Simply, IH should be baseline GM minor trait. There's nothing else to be said here that hasn't been said over what is soon going to be 3 years. It will make mirrors more impactful for all mirage builds (triggering clone evade and ambush), it will make all mirage builds more thematically consistent, and allow the whole spec to be balanced around it - rebalancing all clone ambushes and shifting appropriate amount of damage to player. Speed of Sand should be merged in baseline mirage cloak function.

    Nomad's Endurance should absolutely be 2s vigour now. Also we mustn't ignore it gives 150 condi damage with vigour - ie 5 stacks of might worth of condi damage. Perhaps this could be changed to not be skewed to either condi or power. Otherwise vigour is giving big buff to condi, which also can build for more of it through Chaos, but not doing much for power.


    Anyway, if Anet wants me to play TB/Dire/Rabid/etc cheese, then so be it. /shrug

    Mirrors are awful because you can't control where they spawn and have to run/teleport to them, this make you predictable and makes you either waste time or a resource to get them. While your suggestions improve them they don't solve their issue.
    There were several suggestions how to make mirrors good since pof released.
    On top of mind make mirrors do damage if enemy passes through it. Make them get you a point automatically (kind of like clones dot thing) and you F5 to use them.
    (can't remember who suggested these ones, sorry).

    As for visual effects I disagree, it's a rhombus that shatters, nothing special about it.

    Tbh the only mirrors you can't control are the ones from Desert Distortion. The problem aside from that is Crystal Sands is very weak for an offensive skill (should do far more damage at least), and False Oasis only has value from the mirror in a stationary fight (due to 3s spawn delay). I think StG is actually decent in the current state of the game, though they could have maybe left it on 25s cooldown rather than increase to 30s.
    Jaunt nerfs have also had a harmful effect on existence of mirrors - when playing mirage in pve it's crazy how much you can port around all over the place.

    Having said that, oddly there are very few mirrors on the spec at all - more like a small addition rather than core feature of the spec. So in that way things could be left as they are and still re-buff normal endurance/dodge access because it's not like mirage would suddenly have "perma evade111!!" with how few mirrors there are.
    I think Desert Distortion is a weird gimmick trait that potentially should be reconsidered.

    Regarding F5, after Chrono, can't see any mesmer spec getting an F5. And tbh I prefer keeping same number of keybindings between specs.
    Hmm, well I like the shatter visual and sound from the mirror - is satisfying and fun both aurally and visually.

    Not sure if I'd want enemies to be able to trigger mirrors - unless there is severe penalty for doing so, eg cc and damage, or triggering all clones to ambush, maybe direct endurance refund, otherwise the enemy can plan to tank damage and remove potential evades to continue pressure. But I do recognise the downsides to mirrors in terms of positioning and predictability - so possibly this could work as:

    • Enemies can break mirrors but doing so will give you and all clones mirage cloak (assuming IH baseline minor) and refund 25 endurance (so you soon have a dodge available).
    • If you break the mirror directly you only get mirage cloak as normal.

    Maybe breaking a mirror should apply aoe daze? Just throwing ideas out.

    The only mirrors used are from f4, apart from false oasis who is also bad, like you said stationary.

    As for F5 it's easy, give F5 to every mesmer spec. B)

    Disagree regarding your break mirror suggestion. I mean it should get more benefits if you shatter than if foe break it. Still it would be a throwback to GW1 mesmer:
    If I break the mirror I take damage and deny an evade, if you catch it you get an evade and access to more damage.

    Was thinking to disincentivise the enemy from breaking it (because I think right now if mirrors were suddenly two way breakable, they would be very easy for the enemy to just barge through and continue to pressure in melee), more than for the player to have control over when to break it.

    Haha, sure they'll give F5... and in the process nerf F1, 2, 3 and 4 into dust. :p

    @pninak.1069 said:
    yea enemies don't really have a reason to destroy mirrors. it just makes them secondary clones. and why destroy mirrors where you need to attack 3 things at once vs just attacking the main mesmer in order to not giving it the opportunity to trigger them.

    Well I was only thinking about possibilities in the discussion with Lincolnbeard, though personal feeling is that I prefer them to remain breakable by the mirage only. Unless there is a solid idea otherwise - but I think this would have to come with many other changes, including trait reshuffle, skills etc.

    Ah we are seeing this from different pov.
    I actually want the foe to break the mirror, suddenly, they're the ones being predictable.

    I don't know if you played GW1, it is kind of the same idea of backfire+wastrel worry.
    In case you didn't, backfire was an hex similar to confusion, did x damage everytime you cast a spell.
    Wastrel's worry was also an hex (lasted 3sec) short CD, pretty spammable) that did y damage if you didn't cast a spell in those 3sec.
    So you're putting enemy into a choice do I cast a spell and get damaged while also cause damage on my target or do I take wastrel damage.
    Since wastrel was spammable you were forcing foe to cast a spell. And you could interrupt his cast.

    The degenerate

  • pninak.1069pninak.1069 Member ✭✭✭

    so you think the enemy has to walk to up to mirror in order to break to otherwise suffer dmg from them.. like sort of a timed bomb. this would justify nerfing overall dmg on mirage in order to bring more counterplay into it. the radius of the explosion radius would have to be pretty big tho. otherwise you won't be able to punish foes that shoot from longrange. for wvw this would mean that mesmer would have a place, because they can sneak near the enemy and place mirror for a surprise spike. overall I think anet would have a harder time balancing this.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @pninak.1069 said:
    so you think the enemy has to walk to up to mirror in order to break to otherwise suffer dmg from them.. like sort of a timed bomb. this would justify nerfing overall dmg on mirage in order to bring more counterplay into it. the radius of the explosion radius would have to be pretty big tho. otherwise you won't be able to punish foes that shoot from longrange. for wvw this would mean that mesmer would have a place, because they can sneak near the enemy and place mirror for a surprise spike. overall I think anet would have a harder time balancing this.

    You have a choice. Either you deny mirage access to MC or don't. If you want to deny you touch the mirror and break it. Doesn't need a big radius, melee radius is enough.
    And we are not talking big damage, just the sameish as a 3clone ambush.
    So no need to nerf mirage damage.
    It just provide both counterplay to mirrors and a nice mechanic to play with.

    The degenerate

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    I'm gonna have to stick my neck on the line regarding mirrors - I kind of like them. Guaranteed weakness proc (unlike rng chaos armour), and can delay access to evade for when needed. And I'm also a huge skritt/magpie for visual effects, which mirrors don't fail to deliver on.

    I believe all Deceptions aside from IA (which already has built in cloak) should spawn a mirror. Jaunt should spawn at previous location prior to teleport (strengthening in location evade access, but not in a line when running), Mirage Advance should spawn at previous location (so when you Retreat and detarget, you hit the mirror as well).


    Regarding EM - problem now is, if we had 2 dodges returned this would be absolutely overpowered condi cleanse with 2 per dodge. It's also the stupidest trait redesign, in that it is the most uncreative and boring grandmaster major trait I can think of - only cleanse on dodge... like wow, that really excites me... :/ If they give 2 dodges back, then they should also change this trait once again.


    Simply, IH should be baseline GM minor trait. There's nothing else to be said here that hasn't been said over what is soon going to be 3 years. It will make mirrors more impactful for all mirage builds (triggering clone evade and ambush), it will make all mirage builds more thematically consistent, and allow the whole spec to be balanced around it - rebalancing all clone ambushes and shifting appropriate amount of damage to player. Speed of Sand should be merged in baseline mirage cloak function.

    Nomad's Endurance should absolutely be 2s vigour now. Also we mustn't ignore it gives 150 condi damage with vigour - ie 5 stacks of might worth of condi damage. Perhaps this could be changed to not be skewed to either condi or power. Otherwise vigour is giving big buff to condi, which also can build for more of it through Chaos, but not doing much for power.


    Anyway, if Anet wants me to play TB/Dire/Rabid/etc cheese, then so be it. /shrug

    Mirrors are awful because you can't control where they spawn and have to run/teleport to them, this make you predictable and makes you either waste time or a resource to get them. While your suggestions improve them they don't solve their issue.
    There were several suggestions how to make mirrors good since pof released.
    On top of mind make mirrors do damage if enemy passes through it. Make them get you a point automatically (kind of like clones dot thing) and you F5 to use them.
    (can't remember who suggested these ones, sorry).

    As for visual effects I disagree, it's a rhombus that shatters, nothing special about it.

    Tbh the only mirrors you can't control are the ones from Desert Distortion. The problem aside from that is Crystal Sands is very weak for an offensive skill (should do far more damage at least), and False Oasis only has value from the mirror in a stationary fight (due to 3s spawn delay). I think StG is actually decent in the current state of the game, though they could have maybe left it on 25s cooldown rather than increase to 30s.
    Jaunt nerfs have also had a harmful effect on existence of mirrors - when playing mirage in pve it's crazy how much you can port around all over the place.

    Having said that, oddly there are very few mirrors on the spec at all - more like a small addition rather than core feature of the spec. So in that way things could be left as they are and still re-buff normal endurance/dodge access because it's not like mirage would suddenly have "perma evade111!!" with how few mirrors there are.
    I think Desert Distortion is a weird gimmick trait that potentially should be reconsidered.

    Regarding F5, after Chrono, can't see any mesmer spec getting an F5. And tbh I prefer keeping same number of keybindings between specs.
    Hmm, well I like the shatter visual and sound from the mirror - is satisfying and fun both aurally and visually.

    Not sure if I'd want enemies to be able to trigger mirrors - unless there is severe penalty for doing so, eg cc and damage, or triggering all clones to ambush, maybe direct endurance refund, otherwise the enemy can plan to tank damage and remove potential evades to continue pressure. But I do recognise the downsides to mirrors in terms of positioning and predictability - so possibly this could work as:

    • Enemies can break mirrors but doing so will give you and all clones mirage cloak (assuming IH baseline minor) and refund 25 endurance (so you soon have a dodge available).
    • If you break the mirror directly you only get mirage cloak as normal.

    Maybe breaking a mirror should apply aoe daze? Just throwing ideas out.

    The only mirrors used are from f4, apart from false oasis who is also bad, like you said stationary.

    As for F5 it's easy, give F5 to every mesmer spec. B)

    Disagree regarding your break mirror suggestion. I mean it should get more benefits if you shatter than if foe break it. Still it would be a throwback to GW1 mesmer:
    If I break the mirror I take damage and deny an evade, if you catch it you get an evade and access to more damage.

    Was thinking to disincentivise the enemy from breaking it (because I think right now if mirrors were suddenly two way breakable, they would be very easy for the enemy to just barge through and continue to pressure in melee), more than for the player to have control over when to break it.

    Haha, sure they'll give F5... and in the process nerf F1, 2, 3 and 4 into dust. :p

    @pninak.1069 said:
    yea enemies don't really have a reason to destroy mirrors. it just makes them secondary clones. and why destroy mirrors where you need to attack 3 things at once vs just attacking the main mesmer in order to not giving it the opportunity to trigger them.

    Well I was only thinking about possibilities in the discussion with Lincolnbeard, though personal feeling is that I prefer them to remain breakable by the mirage only. Unless there is a solid idea otherwise - but I think this would have to come with many other changes, including trait reshuffle, skills etc.

    Ah we are seeing this from different pov.
    I actually want the foe to break the mirror, suddenly, they're the ones being predictable.

    I don't know if you played GW1, it is kind of the same idea of backfire+wastrel worry.
    In case you didn't, backfire was an hex similar to confusion, did x damage everytime you cast a spell.
    Wastrel's worry was also an hex (lasted 3sec) short CD, pretty spammable) that did y damage if you didn't cast a spell in those 3sec.
    So you're putting enemy into a choice do I cast a spell and get damaged while also cause damage on my target or do I take wastrel damage.
    Since wastrel was spammable you were forcing foe to cast a spell. And you could interrupt his cast.

    Sadly I didn't play GW1 :( I see what you mean though about forcing the opponent into difficult "no-win" decisions. This would make sense to effectively lead the opponent on a dance through the mirrors!

    My ears, how are you! | Hammer Mesmer - elite spec concept.

  • pninak.1069pninak.1069 Member ✭✭✭

    yea mesmer was the mindgamer in gw1. it sadly got accepted as a class at the very end only, because peopel didn't see the potential. Mesmer, ranger and assasin were rupter classes. for mesmer the targets were mostly casters for assa monks and for ranger caster too. Back then you had complete shutdown builds which could block your skillbar for 10 seconds. unless you used multiple different attribute skills. and mesmer had different options to force players to use or not use skills. for example there is another hex named diversion. it lasted 6 seconds had a loud noisy sound effect. now the hex does literally nothing on its own, but when the target uses a skill the skill will gain up to a minute additional recharge.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @pninak.1069 said:
    yea mesmer was the mindgamer in gw1. it sadly got accepted as a class at the very end only, because peopel didn't see the potential. Mesmer, ranger and assasin were rupter classes. for mesmer the targets were mostly casters for assa monks and for ranger caster too. Back then you had complete shutdown builds which could block your skillbar for 10 seconds. unless you used multiple different attribute skills. and mesmer had different options to force players to use or not use skills. for example there is another hex named diversion. it lasted 6 seconds had a loud noisy sound effect. now the hex does literally nothing on its own, but when the target uses a skill the skill will gain up to a minute additional recharge.

    Mesmer had certain builds in some gvg comps through the game, but yeah, on the "last days" it got more prevalent.
    You made me remind blackout, amazing troll skill.

    The degenerate

  • pninak.1069pninak.1069 Member ✭✭✭

    yea I know the game is still there, but since I got gwamm I have nothing to really go for. I still have plans for custom builds, but rest is mostly just farming for an envoy weapon. Still come back to the game at times. Prefer a lot of stuff from gw1 over that of gw2. gw1 combat feels faster although it was lower dmg numbers and healthpools. I think for gw2 pvp example, that similiar to gw1 people mostly use builds from the internet. However in gw1 you atleast had custom builds that were able to shine in certain aspects even tho they didn't have the biggest range. like not being able to capture jade quarries.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ansau.7326 said:
    As someone who has mained mesmer since gw2 launch, I've realized there is a thing with anet not being comfortable with mesmers staying relevant in big scale fights. At the beggining we had glamour confusion build but it was destroyed like 6 months after game release. Later we had boonshare but it only lasted less than a year until it became subpar. And finally we had minstrel mantra chrono which was also destroyed 1 year after it was born.

    But beyond that, in the recent years anet has taken a very dull and toxic approach to balance mesmer by adding huge trade offs, and the worst part is it seems anet doesn't has any intention to revert it. Mesmer is doomed to live with trade off mechanics that work against its main ones.

    • Core: Overnerfed core specs because elites "are" too strong.
    • Chrono: No IP in an elite based on shatters.
    • Mirage: 1 dodge in an elite based on dodges.

    In Vanilla, mesmer was one of the hardest classes to play, with complex damage setups but without any of the passive sustain most other professions had (clone death build was the exception, but an exclusive WvW dueling build has never been relevant for anet or gw2).

    With HoT and new trait system based on specs, anet finally put mesmer in a similar level as the rest. Suddenly, the community realized mesmer being equal as others was not ok and the doom of mesmer began.
    Happened with chrono at the beggining (apparently it was ok for druids, scrappers and guards to be unkillable tanks but not chrono), happened with mirage (apparently it was ok for thiefs and weavers to jump and evade through everything but not for mirages), and happened for core power mesmer (it is ok for thieves, soulbeasts and holos to cc+oneshot you from stealth with 2-3 skills but not for mesmers when you burn half of your skill set).

    This unreasonable drama reaction has led anet to act like they did. They cannot balance mesmer in a sensible way because the community doesn't want a balanced mesmer, they are only fine as long as mesmer is nerfed. Unfortunately, when this trend and behavior extends for years, surprise surprise, that's what we end up with.

    Once you have experience with several profession you realize how much higher the bar is set for mesmer compared to others. How much you need to chain skills and mechanics to achieve mediocre results, when others is 1 button = 8k AoE damage or speading condis faster than covid. And how your sustain is entirely based on limited evades and the few invuls/blocks that are easily outplayed, when others is let me show you how I spend 20s chaining evades/invuls/blocks or how my sustained healing beats your DPS.

    My suggestion, forget about mesmer and have fun with anything else.

    The community doesn't want a glorified pet class oppressing the rest of the playerbase because in the end , the only time when mesmer became popular was when pet specs were viable like core sword phantasm camper - chrono bunker and staff camper IH condi mirage...basically every time mesmer had access to some brainless low effort=huge reward buid.

    I remember learning that core phantasm build back in the days, signet of illusions was used ...can't remember and the build was all about keeping the phantasm alive , it was dealing 5-6k dmg while you could go tanky...took one day to learn it..then we had chrono bunker...urghhhh...finally condi mirage..god.

    Oh and blur into stealth into dodge evasive reflect into distortion into stealth into blur again into something else like chaos field...that's not something..."easily outplayed" lol, that's an invulnerability chain not even unblockable go through because we're talking about evasion frames acting as an invulnerability....time to face reality, GW2 mesmer got nothing of the complex class in GW1, the current one is simply a badly designed super duellist with easily abusing mechanics

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Zoser.7245Zoser.7245 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2020

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Ansau.7326 said:
    As someone who has mained mesmer since gw2 launch, I've realized there is a thing with anet not being comfortable with mesmers staying relevant in big scale fights. At the beggining we had glamour confusion build but it was destroyed like 6 months after game release. Later we had boonshare but it only lasted less than a year until it became subpar. And finally we had minstrel mantra chrono which was also destroyed 1 year after it was born.

    But beyond that, in the recent years anet has taken a very dull and toxic approach to balance mesmer by adding huge trade offs, and the worst part is it seems anet doesn't has any intention to revert it. Mesmer is doomed to live with trade off mechanics that work against its main ones.

    • Core: Overnerfed core specs because elites "are" too strong.
    • Chrono: No IP in an elite based on shatters.
    • Mirage: 1 dodge in an elite based on dodges.

    In Vanilla, mesmer was one of the hardest classes to play, with complex damage setups but without any of the passive sustain most other professions had (clone death build was the exception, but an exclusive WvW dueling build has never been relevant for anet or gw2).

    With HoT and new trait system based on specs, anet finally put mesmer in a similar level as the rest. Suddenly, the community realized mesmer being equal as others was not ok and the doom of mesmer began.
    Happened with chrono at the beggining (apparently it was ok for druids, scrappers and guards to be unkillable tanks but not chrono), happened with mirage (apparently it was ok for thiefs and weavers to jump and evade through everything but not for mirages), and happened for core power mesmer (it is ok for thieves, soulbeasts and holos to cc+oneshot you from stealth with 2-3 skills but not for mesmers when you burn half of your skill set).

    This unreasonable drama reaction has led anet to act like they did. They cannot balance mesmer in a sensible way because the community doesn't want a balanced mesmer, they are only fine as long as mesmer is nerfed. Unfortunately, when this trend and behavior extends for years, surprise surprise, that's what we end up with.

    Once you have experience with several profession you realize how much higher the bar is set for mesmer compared to others. How much you need to chain skills and mechanics to achieve mediocre results, when others is 1 button = 8k AoE damage or speading condis faster than covid. And how your sustain is entirely based on limited evades and the few invuls/blocks that are easily outplayed, when others is let me show you how I spend 20s chaining evades/invuls/blocks or how my sustained healing beats your DPS.

    My suggestion, forget about mesmer and have fun with anything else.

    The community doesn't want a glorified pet class oppressing the rest of the playerbase because in the end , the only time when mesmer became popular was when pet specs were viable like core sword phantasm camper - chrono bunker and staff camper IH condi mirage...basically every time mesmer had access to some brainless low effort=huge reward buid.

    I remember learning that core phantasm build back in the days, signet of illusions was used ...can't remember and the build was all about keeping the phantasm alive , it was dealing 5-6k dmg while you could go tanky...took one day to learn it..then we had chrono bunker...urghhhh...finally condi mirage..god.

    Oh and blur into stealth into dodge evasive reflect into distortion into stealth into blur again into something else like chaos field...that's not something..."easily outplayed" lol, that's an invulnerability chain not even unblockable go through because we're talking about evasion frames acting as an invulnerability....time to face reality, GW2 mesmer got nothing of the complex class in GW1, the current one is simply a badly designed super duellist with easily abusing mechanics

    At this point who cares. The only thing that mesmers with common sense do now is run like a chicken when a bruiser with sustain or a revenan/herald appears on the screen, also when they smell a thief even if they can't watch them. But if at some point someone discover something to make them shine, it'll be obliterated again asap. The past is history, when someone with "illusion" was working to make mesmers a thing, the nighmare is the future. Now, better play something else.

  • pninak.1069pninak.1069 Member ✭✭✭

    yea the one dodge doesn't keep me from playing. and I think mirage is ment to be a condi spec, because of nomad's defense. but at the same time all other classes seem to be overlooked. mostly firebrand. since gw2 tries to make it similiar to gw1 with giving classes aspects of another class we have this nonsense. Now I hope we get a no lission spec for cantha release. then peopel won't complain about stuff they lie about or don't seem to care to further look into. If IH was the issue you wouldn't complain about mesmer's condi dmg.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2020

    @Leap Of Faith.8263 said:
    Mesmer is no fun in wvw anymore. Been trying to make mirage work in wvw but it doesn’t work. Lack defense, already squishy, other class can so easily outsustain you without even trying. Mirage is probably the worst elite spec to play in wvw currently. It even beats druid.
    If anyone find something viable to play then do post on forums, will give it a try.

    Trailblazer condi mirage with double energy sigil and endurance food is 100% viable in wvw. You have tons of dodges. You just can't chain them anymore to absurd evasion levels, because your endurance pool is capped at 50.

    If you start arguing now that you don't want to play condi and you don't want to use these sigils, but you want to play mirage, then let me tell you:

    I can't play condi reaper, I can't play power core necro (both is not viable). And I don't even need to try to roam on any necro build without rune of speed. Welcome at the level of the rest of the classes with limited viable options. Mirage has been overpowered long enough.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2020

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Leap Of Faith.8263 said:
    Mesmer is no fun in wvw anymore. Been trying to make mirage work in wvw but it doesn’t work. Lack defense, already squishy, other class can so easily outsustain you without even trying. Mirage is probably the worst elite spec to play in wvw currently. It even beats druid.
    If anyone find something viable to play then do post on forums, will give it a try.

    Trailblazer condi mirage with double energy sigil and endurance food is 100% viable in wvw.

    If you start arguing now that you don't want to play condi and you don't want to use these sigils, but you want to play mirage, then let me tell you:

    I can't play condi reaper, I can't play power core necro. And I don't even need to try to roam on any necro build without rune of speed. Welcome at the level of the rest of the classes with limited viable options. Mirage has been overpowered long enough.

    Food is for newbies.

    The food is irrelevant as there is enough vigor and endurance via the sigils. But it completes the package and that's why it has to be named.

    And yes condi mirage is viable on wvw (roaming), for one reason:

    • people suck in wvw.

    Maybe you suck at the build if you can't beat competent opponents with it. It's viable. End of Story.

    And the build that's viable is a kitten chore, boring af.

    Then play another spec. I hate scourge and no one cares. That's how it is.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Leap Of Faith.8263 said:
    Mesmer is no fun in wvw anymore. Been trying to make mirage work in wvw but it doesn’t work. Lack defense, already squishy, other class can so easily outsustain you without even trying. Mirage is probably the worst elite spec to play in wvw currently. It even beats druid.
    If anyone find something viable to play then do post on forums, will give it a try.

    Trailblazer condi mirage with double energy sigil and endurance food is 100% viable in wvw.

    If you start arguing now that you don't want to play condi and you don't want to use these sigils, but you want to play mirage, then let me tell you:

    I can't play condi reaper, I can't play power core necro. And I don't even need to try to roam on any necro build without rune of speed. Welcome at the level of the rest of the classes with limited viable options. Mirage has been overpowered long enough.

    Food is for newbies.

    The food is irrelevant as there is enough vigor and endurance via the sigils. But it completes the package and that's why it has to be named.

    And yes condi mirage is viable on wvw (roaming), for one reason:

    • people suck in wvw.

    Maybe you suck at the build if you can't beat competent opponents with it. It's viable. End of Story.

    And the build that's viable is a kitten chore, boring af.

    Then play another spec. I hate scourge and no one cares. That's how it is.

    Naa, I can kill 1vX with it easily.
    But the point is still true, people suck a lot in wvw.
    I play another spec, power mesmer (and still kill 1vX) reinforcing the previous point even more.

    The degenerate

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Leap Of Faith.8263 said:
    Mesmer is no fun in wvw anymore. Been trying to make mirage work in wvw but it doesn’t work. Lack defense, already squishy, other class can so easily outsustain you without even trying. Mirage is probably the worst elite spec to play in wvw currently. It even beats druid.
    If anyone find something viable to play then do post on forums, will give it a try.

    Trailblazer condi mirage with double energy sigil and endurance food is 100% viable in wvw.

    If you start arguing now that you don't want to play condi and you don't want to use these sigils, but you want to play mirage, then let me tell you:

    I can't play condi reaper, I can't play power core necro. And I don't even need to try to roam on any necro build without rune of speed. Welcome at the level of the rest of the classes with limited viable options. Mirage has been overpowered long enough.

    Food is for newbies.

    The food is irrelevant as there is enough vigor and endurance via the sigils. But it completes the package and that's why it has to be named.

    And yes condi mirage is viable on wvw (roaming), for one reason:

    • people suck in wvw.

    Maybe you suck at the build if you can't beat competent opponents with it. It's viable. End of Story.

    And the build that's viable is a kitten chore, boring af.

    Then play another spec. I hate scourge and no one cares. That's how it is.

    Naa, I can kill 1vX with it easily.
    But the point is still true, people suck a lot in wvw.
    I play another spec, power mesmer (and still kill 1vX) reinforcing the previous point even more.

    i went into WvW on my fractal berserker gear as core power shatter and 3 people couldnt kill me when I was just vibing about, wvw players are super bad lol

  • Heika.5403Heika.5403 Member ✭✭
    edited April 16, 2020

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Leap Of Faith.8263 said:
    Mesmer is no fun in wvw anymore. Been trying to make mirage work in wvw but it doesn’t work. Lack defense, already squishy, other class can so easily outsustain you without even trying. Mirage is probably the worst elite spec to play in wvw currently. It even beats druid.
    If anyone find something viable to play then do post on forums, will give it a try.

    Trailblazer condi mirage with double energy sigil and endurance food is 100% viable in wvw.

    If you start arguing now that you don't want to play condi and you don't want to use these sigils, but you want to play mirage, then let me tell you:

    I can't play condi reaper, I can't play power core necro. And I don't even need to try to roam on any necro build without rune of speed. Welcome at the level of the rest of the classes with limited viable options. Mirage has been overpowered long enough.

    Food is for newbies.

    The food is irrelevant as there is enough vigor and endurance via the sigils. But it completes the package and that's why it has to be named.

    And yes condi mirage is viable on wvw (roaming), for one reason:

    • people suck in wvw.

    Maybe you suck at the build if you can't beat competent opponents with it. It's viable. End of Story.

    And the build that's viable is a kitten chore, boring af.

    Then play another spec. I hate scourge and no one cares. That's how it is.

    Viable? It can only played in a single rol and with a single build. Guardians with their specializations and others are viable with multiple builds and roles everywhere.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Heika.5403 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Leap Of Faith.8263 said:
    Mesmer is no fun in wvw anymore. Been trying to make mirage work in wvw but it doesn’t work. Lack defense, already squishy, other class can so easily outsustain you without even trying. Mirage is probably the worst elite spec to play in wvw currently. It even beats druid.
    If anyone find something viable to play then do post on forums, will give it a try.

    Trailblazer condi mirage with double energy sigil and endurance food is 100% viable in wvw.

    If you start arguing now that you don't want to play condi and you don't want to use these sigils, but you want to play mirage, then let me tell you:

    I can't play condi reaper, I can't play power core necro. And I don't even need to try to roam on any necro build without rune of speed. Welcome at the level of the rest of the classes with limited viable options. Mirage has been overpowered long enough.

    Food is for newbies.

    The food is irrelevant as there is enough vigor and endurance via the sigils. But it completes the package and that's why it has to be named.

    And yes condi mirage is viable on wvw (roaming), for one reason:

    • people suck in wvw.

    Maybe you suck at the build if you can't beat competent opponents with it. It's viable. End of Story.

    And the build that's viable is a kitten chore, boring af.

    Then play another spec. I hate scourge and no one cares. That's how it is.

    Viable? Is can only played in a single rol and with a single build. Guardians with their specializations and others are viable with multiple builds and roles everywhere.

    comparing to guard is unfair since they are broken in every gamemode lol

  • Sylosi.6503Sylosi.6503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2020

    Redacted...

  • scerevisiae.1972scerevisiae.1972 Member ✭✭✭

    @pninak.1069 said:
    I think mirage is ment to be a condi spec

    if that were true, wy does condi damage suck so hard on mesmer except vs single targets?

    it's not even possible to come up with a gimmicky WVW/AOE condi spec that is even close to being good enough to play.

  • Leap Of Faith.8263Leap Of Faith.8263 Member ✭✭
    edited April 24, 2020

    @scerevisiae.1972 said:

    @pninak.1069 said:
    I think mirage is ment to be a condi spec

    if that were true, wy does condi damage suck so hard on mesmer except vs single targets?

    it's not even possible to come up with a gimmicky WVW/AOE condi spec that is even close to being good enough to play.

    Summarizing it to mirage is a single target condition spec. And not even best at its very specific job. On top of my head i can think of condi rev, it does both aoe or single target better. Both of these apply torment majorly. But to apply 13-17 stacks of torment on enemy mirage has to 1st generate 3 clones then a shatter, a mirage cloak etc. On rev, you start mallyx elite, mace 3 and a few auto attacks and bam you have 20 torment stacks. My point being we can so the same thing that a condi mirage does, but with less effort and ease on rev.

  • scerevisiae.1972scerevisiae.1972 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 24, 2020

    @Leap Of Faith.8263 said:
    Summarizing it to mirage is a single target condition spec.

    yeah it's terrible design in a game where AOE is a major/critical part of 3 of 3 game modes.

    back on topic:
    I tried berserker double greatsword + double energy sigil in WVW and while the burst is decent, an equivalently-geared staff weaver is way more destructive and just as survivable, so something is broken.

    IMHO blatantly obvious 1 dodge in WVW was bad idea and needs buffed.

    While i am whinging, i think mesmer traits are really badly organised.

    IH feels absolutely mandatory, it's the defining trait of the mirage spec, should be baseline. New GM trait - create a mirage mirror when you gain stealth, plus shattering a mirage mirror does more dmg over a larger area.

    Deception skills are very meh, especially Crystal Sands is very underpowered compared to e.g. necro serpent siphon and most people think that is kitten too.

  • Yoci.2481Yoci.2481 Member ✭✭✭

    Mesmer is the duelist profession.

    ;)

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ansau.7326 said:

    My suggestion, forget about mesmer and have fun with anything else any other game.

    My solution is Destiny 2, where they don't nerf the class that supposed to be mobile and tricky.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.