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1 dodge in WVW is just.... terrible


scerevisiae.1972

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I'm not a main mesmer, but i like the class and would like to play it more.

I don't do sPVP or PVE at all, only WVW (because PVP in WVW >>> standingincirclesPVP).

Power mirage was not a thing in WVW even before the dodge nerf. The dmg was comparable to other similarly-geared powered classes vs single targets, but quite a lot lower in a ZvZ situation. Area dmg almost entirely came from Infinite Horizon spam, which requires dodges.

After the dodge nerf, survivability is way down (was low already), and damage is close to half, even with perfect positioning does not even make the top 10 in the DPS list now despite sacrificing all survivability for max damage.

It feels... terrible.

I will be the first to agree that dodge-stunbreak GM trait was too strong but that's all that needed addressing. If anything i'd have said mirage would be justified in having a 3rd dodge, with dodge-related traits slightly downtuned to match, as dodging is the spec-class's main mechanic.

You really can't leave mirage with 1 dodge, without compensating without e.g. doubling the effect of vigour for mirages. It just sucks. As a former game dev myself I don't like to criticise game studios for baance decisions as they're the ones with the data but this particular change seems very unwarranted.

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3 dodges on mirage thats a good onerly if anything its ok for wvw since u got 50 on energy and endurance food - and the ih build you mention already has perm vigor

would just use shatter build also pretty immortal still you shouldnt really die on it

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As someone who has mained mesmer since gw2 launch, I've realized there is a thing with anet not being comfortable with mesmers staying relevant in big scale fights. At the beggining we had glamour confusion build but it was destroyed like 6 months after game release. Later we had boonshare but it only lasted less than a year until it became subpar. And finally we had minstrel mantra chrono which was also destroyed 1 year after it was born.

But beyond that, in the recent years anet has taken a very dull and toxic approach to balance mesmer by adding huge trade offs, and the worst part is it seems anet doesn't has any intention to revert it. Mesmer is doomed to live with trade off mechanics that work against its main ones.

  • Core: Overnerfed core specs because elites "are" too strong.
  • Chrono: No IP in an elite based on shatters.
  • Mirage: 1 dodge in an elite based on dodges.

In Vanilla, mesmer was one of the hardest classes to play, with complex damage setups but without any of the passive sustain most other professions had (clone death build was the exception, but an exclusive WvW dueling build has never been relevant for anet or gw2).

With HoT and new trait system based on specs, anet finally put mesmer in a similar level as the rest. Suddenly, the community realized mesmer being equal as others was not ok and the doom of mesmer began.Happened with chrono at the beggining (apparently it was ok for druids, scrappers and guards to be unkillable tanks but not chrono), happened with mirage (apparently it was ok for thiefs and weavers to jump and evade through everything but not for mirages), and happened for core power mesmer (it is ok for thieves, soulbeasts and holos to cc+oneshot you from stealth with 2-3 skills but not for mesmers when you burn half of your skill set).

This unreasonable drama reaction has led anet to act like they did. They cannot balance mesmer in a sensible way because the community doesn't want a balanced mesmer, they are only fine as long as mesmer is nerfed. Unfortunately, when this trend and behavior extends for years, surprise surprise, that's what we end up with.

Once you have experience with several profession you realize how much higher the bar is set for mesmer compared to others. How much you need to chain skills and mechanics to achieve mediocre results, when others is 1 button = 8k AoE damage or speading condis faster than covid. And how your sustain is entirely based on limited evades and the few invuls/blocks that are easily outplayed, when others is let me show you how I spend 20s chaining evades/invuls/blocks or how my sustained healing beats your DPS.

My suggestion, forget about mesmer and have fun with anything else.

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@"Ansau.7326" said:As someone who has mained mesmer since gw2 launch, I've realized there is a thing with anet not being comfortable with mesmers staying relevant in big scale fights. At the beggining we had glamour confusion build but it was destroyed like 6 months after game release. Later we had boonshare but it only lasted less than a year until it became subpar. And finally we had minstrel mantra chrono which was also destroyed 1 year after it was born.

But beyond that, in the recent years anet has taken a very dull and toxic approach to balance mesmer by adding huge trade offs, and the worst part is it seems anet doesn't has any intention to revert it. Mesmer is doomed to live with trade off mechanics that work against its main ones.

  • Core: Overnerfed core specs because elites "are" too strong.
  • Chrono: No IP in an elite based on shatters.
  • Mirage: 1 dodge in an elite based on dodges.

In Vanilla, mesmer was one of the hardest classes to play, with complex damage setups but without any of the passive sustain most other professions had (clone death build was the exception, but an exclusive WvW dueling build has never been relevant for anet or gw2).

With HoT and new trait system based on specs, anet finally put mesmer in a similar level as the rest. Suddenly, the community realized mesmer being equal as others was not ok and the doom of mesmer began.Happened with chrono at the beggining (apparently it was ok for druids, scrappers and guards to be unkillable tanks but not chrono), happened with mirage (apparently it was ok for thiefs and weavers to jump and evade through everything but not for mirages), and happened for core power mesmer (it is ok for thieves, soulbeasts and holos to cc+oneshot you from stealth with 2-3 skills but not for mesmers when you burn half of your skill set).

This unreasonable drama reaction has led anet to act like they did. They cannot balance mesmer in a sensible way because the community doesn't want a balanced mesmer, they are only fine as long as mesmer is nerfed. Unfortunately, when this trend and behavior extends for years, surprise surprise, that's what we end up with.

Once you have experience with several profession you realize how much higher the bar is set for mesmer compared to others. How much you need to chain skills and mechanics to achieve mediocre results, when others is 1 button = 8k AoE damage or speading condis faster than covid. And how your sustain is entirely based on limited evades and the few invuls/blocks that are easily outplayed, when others is let me show you how I spend 20s chaining evades/invuls/blocks or how my sustained healing beats your DPS.

My suggestion, forget about mesmer and have fun with anything else.

well said while trying to keep it short =)

I do remember you Ansau, but why do I have the feeling that I haven't see you here for a while, add for the things you have added it was okay for some classes to be immune to cc, but mirage to break stun with grandmaster trait was too much.

We also kept seeing REMOVE/NERF Elusive Mind posts from none mesmers that didn't even know that mirage can dodge with mirage cloak while being stunned, and sadly Anet are one of those that didn't know that as well it seems, which they did deleted Elusive Mind "the defense focused trait" , wait deleting it would have been better coz at the end it was waaaay too harmful for the mesmer that whenever I see a mirage using that Elusive Mind in WvW I whisper them and I tell them to not use that trait coz it cripples them (regardless of enemy or ally). 6 sec exhaust , who do they think this is? daredevil???? :astonished:

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My opinion on Mirage :

  • EM used to be very strong, but after the nerfs, no one used it in favour of IH, which brought another sort of cancer to the table.
  • People are mostly playing dodge spam IH builds for Condi Mirage > Nerfs dodges instead of IH

Nerfs, sure fine.But like all nerfs, Anet never reverts anything.EM isn't anywhere near strong now that Mirage has only one dodge, but alas, no revert or at least a minor buff to make it usable.Jaunt revert could have put some mobility back into Mirage to compensate the loss of dodge, but nope.

So what do players do in the end?Same as they always have been doing : stack Endurance food, stack Sigil of Energy and keep playing IH.Problem has been toned down, but the problem is still there, and now it affects general playability of Mirage while keeping the problem alive.

Meanwhile Daredevils are like LOL PERMA EVADE VAULT VAULT VAULT VAULT OH NO IM GONNA DIE, DASH DASH DASH SB5 SB5 SB5 SB5 EXHAUSTION IS OVER DASH DASH DASH OMG IM SO SKILLED.

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@"Ansau.7326" said:As someone who has mained mesmer since gw2 launch, I've realized there is a thing with anet not being comfortable with mesmers staying relevant in big scale fights. At the beggining we had glamour confusion build but it was destroyed like 6 months after game release. Later we had boonshare but it only lasted less than a year until it became subpar. And finally we had minstrel mantra chrono which was also destroyed 1 year after it was born.

But beyond that, in the recent years anet has taken a very dull and toxic approach to balance mesmer by adding huge trade offs, and the worst part is it seems anet doesn't has any intention to revert it. Mesmer is doomed to live with trade off mechanics that work against its main ones.

  • Core: Overnerfed core specs because elites "are" too strong.
  • Chrono: No IP in an elite based on shatters.
  • Mirage: 1 dodge in an elite based on dodges.

In Vanilla, mesmer was one of the hardest classes to play, with complex damage setups but without any of the passive sustain most other professions had (clone death build was the exception, but an exclusive WvW dueling build has never been relevant for anet or gw2).

With HoT and new trait system based on specs, anet finally put mesmer in a similar level as the rest. Suddenly, the community realized mesmer being equal as others was not ok and the doom of mesmer began.Happened with chrono at the beggining (apparently it was ok for druids, scrappers and guards to be unkillable tanks but not chrono), happened with mirage (apparently it was ok for thiefs and weavers to jump and evade through everything but not for mirages), and happened for core power mesmer (it is ok for thieves, soulbeasts and holos to cc+oneshot you from stealth with 2-3 skills but not for mesmers when you burn half of your skill set).

This unreasonable drama reaction has led anet to act like they did. They cannot balance mesmer in a sensible way because the community doesn't want a balanced mesmer, they are only fine as long as mesmer is nerfed. Unfortunately, when this trend and behavior extends for years, surprise surprise, that's what we end up with.

Once you have experience with several profession you realize how much higher the bar is set for mesmer compared to others. How much you need to chain skills and mechanics to achieve mediocre results, when others is 1 button = 8k AoE damage or speading condis faster than covid. And how your sustain is entirely based on limited evades and the few invuls/blocks that are easily outplayed, when others is let me show you how I spend 20s chaining evades/invuls/blocks or how my sustained healing beats your DPS.

My suggestion, forget about mesmer and have fun with anything else.

The thing with mirage is that theoretically, you can chain evades by utilising the mirage mirrors, which should have been a thematical focal point for the mirage from the very beginning.

I can see how this trade off of having just 1 dodge seems contradictionary for an espec that gets benefits from dodges, but you have additional sources for these dodges available for you if you choose to use them.

They did the same for Scrapper. People were questioning why Anet installed a second trade off (first trade off is replacing your F5 skill with the function gyro) by giving scrappers a 180 malus on vitality. They reduced the total health on an elite spec that is about tankiness. It still made sense, tho, since they added the mechanic to convert 15% of your strike damage to barrier. As long as you keep hitting stuff, you will end up tankier in the end through the constant influx of barriers.

Mirage is basically the same here. Yes, it gets benefits from dodges. But you are able to chain more dodges than the base mesmer if you choose to use the tools available to you. Reducing the dodges can counterweight the additional ability to create additional dodges.

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@Heartpains.7312 said:

@"Ansau.7326" said:As someone who has mained mesmer since gw2 launch, I've realized there is a thing with anet not being comfortable with mesmers staying relevant in big scale fights. At the beggining we had glamour confusion build but it was destroyed like 6 months after game release. Later we had boonshare but it only lasted less than a year until it became subpar. And finally we had minstrel mantra chrono which was also destroyed 1 year after it was born.

But beyond that, in the recent years anet has taken a very dull and toxic approach to balance mesmer by adding huge trade offs, and the worst part is it seems anet doesn't has any intention to revert it. Mesmer is doomed to live with trade off mechanics that work against its main ones.
  • Core: Overnerfed core specs because elites "are" too strong.
  • Chrono: No IP in an elite based on shatters.
  • Mirage: 1 dodge in an elite based on dodges.

In Vanilla, mesmer was one of the hardest classes to play, with complex damage setups but without any of the passive sustain most other professions had (clone death build was the exception, but an exclusive WvW dueling build has never been relevant for anet or gw2).

With HoT and new trait system based on specs, anet finally put mesmer in a similar level as the rest. Suddenly, the community realized mesmer being equal as others was not ok and the doom of mesmer began.Happened with chrono at the beggining (apparently it was ok for druids, scrappers and guards to be unkillable tanks but not chrono), happened with mirage (apparently it was ok for thiefs and weavers to jump and evade through everything but not for mirages), and happened for core power mesmer (it is ok for thieves, soulbeasts and holos to cc+oneshot you from stealth with 2-3 skills but not for mesmers when you burn half of your skill set).

This unreasonable drama reaction has led anet to act like they did. They cannot balance mesmer in a sensible way because the community doesn't want a balanced mesmer, they are only fine as long as mesmer is nerfed. Unfortunately, when this trend and behavior extends for years, surprise surprise, that's what we end up with.

Once you have experience with several profession you realize how much higher the bar is set for mesmer compared to others. How much you need to chain skills and mechanics to achieve mediocre results, when others is 1 button = 8k AoE damage or speading condis faster than covid. And how your sustain is entirely based on limited evades and the few invuls/blocks that are easily outplayed, when others is let me show you how I spend 20s chaining evades/invuls/blocks or how my sustained healing beats your DPS.

My suggestion, forget about mesmer and have fun with anything else.

well said while trying to keep it short =)

I do remember you Ansau, but why do I have the feeling that I haven't see you here for a while, add for the things you have added it was okay for some classes to be immune to cc, but mirage to break stun with grandmaster trait was too much.

Yeah, after chrono butchering I was too annoyed to care anymore about gw2 good end and started to play less. With the lockdown I'm playing again, but sitting on a scrapper and rev instead, mesmer is too depressing even in pve.Checked gw2efficiency time played and holy cow...jgXpw2l.jpg

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@scerevisiae.1972 said:As a former game dev myself I don't like to criticise game studios for baance decisions as they're the ones with the data but this particular change seems very unwarranted.

You can't argue with data, and the data says at least one person is still playing Mesmer in WvW. That warrants a big nerf with coming with the next balance patch.

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Mesmer is no fun in wvw anymore. Been trying to make mirage work in wvw but it doesn’t work. Lack defense, already squishy, other class can so easily outsustain you without even trying. Mirage is probably the worst elite spec to play in wvw currently. It even beats druid.If anyone find something viable to play then do post on forums, will give it a try.

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@Leap Of Faith.8263 said:Mesmer is no fun in wvw anymore. Been trying to make mirage work in wvw but it doesn’t work. Lack defense, already squishy, other class can so easily outsustain you without even trying. Mirage is probably the worst elite spec to play in wvw currently. It even beats druid.If anyone find something viable to play then do post on forums, will give it a try.

I tried to make it work a bit in the little time that i tried to play, and you know how much I spend time playing mesmer, let it be, they don't want you to play chrono or mirage =p

Core is next if that is playable xD

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@"Ansau.7326" said:As someone who has mained mesmer since gw2 launch, I've realized there is a thing with anet not being comfortable with mesmers staying relevant in big scale fights. At the beggining we had glamour confusion build but it was destroyed like 6 months after game release. Later we had boonshare but it only lasted less than a year until it became subpar. And finally we had minstrel mantra chrono which was also destroyed 1 year after it was born.

But beyond that, in the recent years anet has taken a very dull and toxic approach to balance mesmer by adding huge trade offs, and the worst part is it seems anet doesn't has any intention to revert it. Mesmer is doomed to live with trade off mechanics that work against its main ones.

  • Core: Overnerfed core specs because elites "are" too strong.
  • Chrono: No IP in an elite based on shatters.
  • Mirage: 1 dodge in an elite based on dodges.

In Vanilla, mesmer was one of the hardest classes to play, with complex damage setups but without any of the passive sustain most other professions had (clone death build was the exception, but an exclusive WvW dueling build has never been relevant for anet or gw2).

With HoT and new trait system based on specs, anet finally put mesmer in a similar level as the rest. Suddenly, the community realized mesmer being equal as others was not ok and the doom of mesmer began.Happened with chrono at the beggining (apparently it was ok for druids, scrappers and guards to be unkillable tanks but not chrono), happened with mirage (apparently it was ok for thiefs and weavers to jump and evade through everything but not for mirages), and happened for core power mesmer (it is ok for thieves, soulbeasts and holos to cc+oneshot you from stealth with 2-3 skills but not for mesmers when you burn half of your skill set).

This unreasonable drama reaction has led anet to act like they did. They cannot balance mesmer in a sensible way because the community doesn't want a balanced mesmer, they are only fine as long as mesmer is nerfed. Unfortunately, when this trend and behavior extends for years, surprise surprise, that's what we end up with.

Once you have experience with several profession you realize how much higher the bar is set for mesmer compared to others. How much you need to chain skills and mechanics to achieve mediocre results, when others is 1 button = 8k AoE damage or speading condis faster than covid. And how your sustain is entirely based on limited evades and the few invuls/blocks that are easily outplayed, when others is let me show you how I spend 20s chaining evades/invuls/blocks or how my sustained healing beats your DPS.

My suggestion, forget about mesmer and have fun with anything else.

Ha golden confusion on glamour time (2 stacks were clearly op...). It's been 2 years + than we haven't even glamour trait now...

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Ansau.7326" said:As someone who has mained mesmer since gw2 launch, I've realized there is a thing with anet not being comfortable with mesmers staying relevant in big scale fights. At the beggining we had glamour confusion build but it was destroyed like 6 months after game release. Later we had boonshare but it only lasted less than a year until it became subpar. And finally we had minstrel mantra chrono which was also destroyed 1 year after it was born.

But beyond that, in the recent years anet has taken a very dull and toxic approach to balance mesmer by adding huge trade offs, and the worst part is it seems anet doesn't has any intention to revert it. Mesmer is doomed to live with trade off mechanics that work against its main ones.
  • Core: Overnerfed core specs because elites "are" too strong.
  • Chrono: No IP in an elite based on shatters.
  • Mirage: 1 dodge in an elite based on dodges.

In Vanilla, mesmer was one of the hardest classes to play, with complex damage setups but without any of the passive sustain most other professions had (clone death build was the exception, but an exclusive WvW dueling build has never been relevant for anet or gw2).

With HoT and new trait system based on specs, anet finally put mesmer in a similar level as the rest. Suddenly, the community realized mesmer being equal as others was not ok and the doom of mesmer began.Happened with chrono at the beggining (apparently it was ok for druids, scrappers and guards to be unkillable tanks but not chrono), happened with mirage (apparently it was ok for thiefs and weavers to jump and evade through everything but not for mirages), and happened for core power mesmer (it is ok for thieves, soulbeasts and holos to cc+oneshot you from stealth with 2-3 skills but not for mesmers when you burn half of your skill set).

This unreasonable drama reaction has led anet to act like they did. They cannot balance mesmer in a sensible way because the community doesn't want a balanced mesmer, they are only fine as long as mesmer is nerfed. Unfortunately, when this trend and behavior extends for years, surprise surprise, that's what we end up with.

Once you have experience with several profession you realize how much higher the bar is set for mesmer compared to others. How much you need to chain skills and mechanics to achieve mediocre results, when others is 1 button = 8k AoE damage or speading condis faster than covid. And how your sustain is entirely based on limited evades and the few invuls/blocks that are easily outplayed, when others is let me show you how I spend 20s chaining evades/invuls/blocks or how my sustained healing beats your DPS.

My suggestion, forget about mesmer and have fun with anything else.

The thing with mirage is that theoretically, you can chain evades by utilising the mirage mirrors, which should have been a thematical focal point for the mirage from the very beginning.

I can see how this trade off of having just 1 dodge seems contradictionary for an espec that gets benefits from dodges, but you have additional sources for these dodges available for you if you choose to use them.

They did the same for Scrapper. People were questioning why Anet installed a second trade off (first trade off is replacing your F5 skill with the function gyro) by giving scrappers a 180 malus on vitality. They reduced the total health on an elite spec that is about tankiness. It still made sense, tho, since they added the mechanic to convert 15% of your strike damage to barrier. As long as you keep hitting stuff, you will end up tankier in the end through the constant influx of barriers.

Mirage is basically the same here. Yes, it gets benefits from dodges. But you
are
able to chain more dodges than the base mesmer if you choose to use the tools available to you. Reducing the dodges can counterweight the additional ability to create additional dodges.

If you think the Mirrors are a good or even usable mechanic, I got a bridge to sell you.Mirrors are the epitome of poorly designed mechanic whose only purpose is to flash more purple and butterflies, because Gaile or Ruby or whoever had a thing for flashy butterflies. It's a counter intuitive, steaming pile of kitten.

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@ArlAlt.1630 said:

@"Ansau.7326" said:As someone who has mained mesmer since gw2 launch, I've realized there is a thing with anet not being comfortable with mesmers staying relevant in big scale fights. At the beggining we had glamour confusion build but it was destroyed like 6 months after game release. Later we had boonshare but it only lasted less than a year until it became subpar. And finally we had minstrel mantra chrono which was also destroyed 1 year after it was born.

But beyond that, in the recent years anet has taken a very dull and toxic approach to balance mesmer by adding huge trade offs, and the worst part is it seems anet doesn't has any intention to revert it. Mesmer is doomed to live with trade off mechanics that work against its main ones.
  • Core: Overnerfed core specs because elites "are" too strong.
  • Chrono: No IP in an elite based on shatters.
  • Mirage: 1 dodge in an elite based on dodges.

In Vanilla, mesmer was one of the hardest classes to play, with complex damage setups but without any of the passive sustain most other professions had (clone death build was the exception, but an exclusive WvW dueling build has never been relevant for anet or gw2).

With HoT and new trait system based on specs, anet finally put mesmer in a similar level as the rest. Suddenly, the community realized mesmer being equal as others was not ok and the doom of mesmer began.Happened with chrono at the beggining (apparently it was ok for druids, scrappers and guards to be unkillable tanks but not chrono), happened with mirage (apparently it was ok for thiefs and weavers to jump and evade through everything but not for mirages), and happened for core power mesmer (it is ok for thieves, soulbeasts and holos to cc+oneshot you from stealth with 2-3 skills but not for mesmers when you burn half of your skill set).

This unreasonable drama reaction has led anet to act like they did. They cannot balance mesmer in a sensible way because the community doesn't want a balanced mesmer, they are only fine as long as mesmer is nerfed. Unfortunately, when this trend and behavior extends for years, surprise surprise, that's what we end up with.

Once you have experience with several profession you realize how much higher the bar is set for mesmer compared to others. How much you need to chain skills and mechanics to achieve mediocre results, when others is 1 button = 8k AoE damage or speading condis faster than covid. And how your sustain is entirely based on limited evades and the few invuls/blocks that are easily outplayed, when others is let me show you how I spend 20s chaining evades/invuls/blocks or how my sustained healing beats your DPS.

My suggestion, forget about mesmer and have fun with anything else.

The thing with mirage is that theoretically, you can chain evades by utilising the mirage mirrors, which should have been a thematical focal point for the mirage from the very beginning.

I can see how this trade off of having just 1 dodge seems contradictionary for an espec that gets benefits from dodges, but you have additional sources for these dodges available for you if you choose to use them.

They did the same for Scrapper. People were questioning why Anet installed a second trade off (first trade off is replacing your F5 skill with the function gyro) by giving scrappers a 180 malus on vitality. They reduced the total health on an elite spec that is about tankiness. It still made sense, tho, since they added the mechanic to convert 15% of your strike damage to barrier. As long as you keep hitting stuff, you will end up tankier in the end through the constant influx of barriers.

Mirage is basically the same here. Yes, it gets benefits from dodges. But you
are
able to chain more dodges than the base mesmer if you choose to use the tools available to you. Reducing the dodges can counterweight the additional ability to create additional dodges.

If you think the Mirrors are a good or even usable mechanic, I got a bridge to sell you.Mirrors are the epitome of poorly designed mechanic whose only purpose is to flash more purple and butterflies, because Gaile or Ruby or whoever had a thing for flashy butterflies. It's a counter intuitive, steaming pile of kitten.

True.Mirrors are only on game because devs saw the mirror design and thought it looked awesome - A kitten rhombus...

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I'm gonna have to stick my neck on the line regarding mirrors - I kind of like them. Guaranteed weakness proc (unlike rng chaos armour), and can delay access to evade for when needed. And I'm also a huge skritt/magpie for visual effects, which mirrors don't fail to deliver on.

I believe all Deceptions aside from IA (which already has built in cloak) should spawn a mirror. Jaunt should spawn at previous location prior to teleport (strengthening in location evade access, but not in a line when running), Mirage Advance should spawn at previous location (so when you Retreat and detarget, you hit the mirror as well).


Regarding EM - problem now is, if we had 2 dodges returned this would be absolutely overpowered condi cleanse with 2 per dodge. It's also the stupidest trait redesign, in that it is the most uncreative and boring grandmaster major trait I can think of - only cleanse on dodge... like wow, that really excites me... :/ If they give 2 dodges back, then they should also change this trait once again.


Simply, IH should be baseline GM minor trait. There's nothing else to be said here that hasn't been said over what is soon going to be 3 years. It will make mirrors more impactful for all mirage builds (triggering clone evade and ambush), it will make all mirage builds more thematically consistent, and allow the whole spec to be balanced around it - rebalancing all clone ambushes and shifting appropriate amount of damage to player. Speed of Sand should be merged in baseline mirage cloak function.

Nomad's Endurance should absolutely be 2s vigour now. Also we mustn't ignore it gives 150 condi damage with vigour - ie 5 stacks of might worth of condi damage. Perhaps this could be changed to not be skewed to either condi or power. Otherwise vigour is giving big buff to condi, which also can build for more of it through Chaos, but not doing much for power.


Anyway, if Anet wants me to play TB/Dire/Rabid/etc cheese, then so be it. /shrug

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@Curunen.8729 said:I'm gonna have to stick my neck on the line regarding mirrors - I kind of like them. Guaranteed weakness proc (unlike rng chaos armour), and can delay access to evade for when needed. And I'm also a huge skritt/magpie for visual effects, which mirrors don't fail to deliver on.

I believe all Deceptions aside from IA (which already has built in cloak) should spawn a mirror. Jaunt should spawn at previous location prior to teleport (strengthening in location evade access, but not in a line when running), Mirage Advance should spawn at previous location (so when you Retreat and detarget, you hit the mirror as well).


Regarding EM - problem now is, if we had 2 dodges returned this would be absolutely overpowered condi cleanse with 2 per dodge. It's also the stupidest trait redesign, in that it is the most uncreative and boring grandmaster major trait I can think of - only cleanse on dodge... like wow, that really excites me... :/ If they give 2 dodges back, then they should also change this trait once again.


Simply, IH should be baseline GM minor trait. There's nothing else to be said here that hasn't been said over what is soon going to be 3 years. It will make mirrors more impactful for all mirage builds (triggering clone evade and ambush), it will make all mirage builds more thematically consistent, and allow the whole spec to be balanced around it - rebalancing all clone ambushes and shifting appropriate amount of damage to player. Speed of Sand should be merged in baseline mirage cloak function.

Nomad's Endurance should absolutely be 2s vigour now. Also we mustn't ignore it gives 150 condi damage with vigour - ie 5 stacks of might worth of condi damage. Perhaps this could be changed to not be skewed to either condi or power. Otherwise vigour is giving big buff to condi, which also can build for more of it through Chaos, but not doing much for power.


Anyway, if Anet wants me to play TB/Dire/Rabid/etc cheese, then so be it. /shrug

Mirrors are awful because you can't control where they spawn and have to run/teleport to them, this make you predictable and makes you either waste time or a resource to get them. While your suggestions improve them they don't solve their issue.There were several suggestions how to make mirrors good since pof released.On top of mind make mirrors do damage if enemy passes through it. Make them get you a point automatically (kind of like clones dot thing) and you F5 to use them.(can't remember who suggested these ones, sorry).

As for visual effects I disagree, it's a rhombus that shatters, nothing special about it.

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you'd be surprised how many players won't actually stop you from reaching them. I just think it has no real use in pvp. I just looked a vid yesterday and in it you had a pmirage that uses mantras and blink. I think they got no place in pvp, because a lot more people are aware of them.

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@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@"Curunen.8729" said:I'm gonna have to stick my neck on the line regarding mirrors - I kind of like them. Guaranteed weakness proc (unlike rng chaos armour), and can delay access to evade for when needed. And I'm also a huge skritt/magpie for visual effects, which mirrors don't fail to deliver on.

I believe all Deceptions aside from IA (which already has built in cloak) should spawn a mirror. Jaunt should spawn at previous location prior to teleport (strengthening in location evade access, but not in a line when running), Mirage Advance should spawn at previous location (so when you Retreat and detarget, you hit the mirror as well).

Regarding EM - problem now is, if we had 2 dodges returned this would be absolutely overpowered condi cleanse with 2 per dodge. It's also the stupidest trait redesign, in that it is the most uncreative and boring grandmaster major trait I can think of - only cleanse on dodge... like wow, that really excites me... :/ If they give 2 dodges back, then they should also change this trait once again.

Simply, IH should be baseline GM minor trait. There's nothing else to be said here that hasn't been said over what is soon going to be 3 years. It will make mirrors more impactful for all mirage builds (triggering clone evade and ambush), it will make all mirage builds more thematically consistent, and allow the whole spec to be balanced around it - rebalancing all clone ambushes and shifting appropriate amount of damage to player. Speed of Sand should be merged in baseline mirage cloak function.

Nomad's Endurance should absolutely be 2s vigour now. Also we mustn't ignore it gives 150 condi damage with vigour - ie 5 stacks of might worth of condi damage. Perhaps this could be changed to not be skewed to either condi or power. Otherwise vigour is giving big buff to condi, which also can build for more of it through Chaos, but not doing much for power.

Anyway, if Anet wants me to play TB/Dire/Rabid/etc cheese, then so be it. /shrug

Mirrors are awful because you can't control where they spawn and have to run/teleport to them, this make you predictable and makes you either waste time or a resource to get them. While your suggestions improve them they don't solve their issue.There were several suggestions how to make mirrors good since pof released.On top of mind make mirrors do damage if enemy passes through it. Make them get you a point automatically (kind of like clones dot thing) and you F5 to use them.(can't remember who suggested these ones, sorry).

As for visual effects I disagree, it's a rhombus that shatters, nothing special about it.

Tbh the only mirrors you can't control are the ones from Desert Distortion. The problem aside from that is Crystal Sands is very weak for an offensive skill (should do far more damage at least), and False Oasis only has value from the mirror in a stationary fight (due to 3s spawn delay). I think StG is actually decent in the current state of the game, though they could have maybe left it on 25s cooldown rather than increase to 30s.Jaunt nerfs have also had a harmful effect on existence of mirrors - when playing mirage in pve it's crazy how much you can port around all over the place.

Having said that, oddly there are very few mirrors on the spec at all - more like a small addition rather than core feature of the spec. So in that way things could be left as they are and still re-buff normal endurance/dodge access because it's not like mirage would suddenly have "perma evade111!!" with how few mirrors there are.I think Desert Distortion is a weird gimmick trait that potentially should be reconsidered.

Regarding F5, after Chrono, can't see any mesmer spec getting an F5. And tbh I prefer keeping same number of keybindings between specs.Hmm, well I like the shatter visual and sound from the mirror - is satisfying and fun both aurally and visually.

Not sure if I'd want enemies to be able to trigger mirrors - unless there is severe penalty for doing so, eg cc and damage, or triggering all clones to ambush, maybe direct endurance refund, otherwise the enemy can plan to tank damage and remove potential evades to continue pressure. But I do recognise the downsides to mirrors in terms of positioning and predictability - so possibly this could work as:

  • Enemies can break mirrors but doing so will give you and all clones mirage cloak (assuming IH baseline minor) and refund 25 endurance (so you soon have a dodge available).
  • If you break the mirror directly you only get mirage cloak as normal.

Maybe breaking a mirror should apply aoe daze? Just throwing ideas out.

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@Curunen.8729 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I'm gonna have to stick my neck on the line regarding mirrors - I kind of like them. Guaranteed weakness proc (unlike rng chaos armour), and can delay access to evade for when needed. And I'm also a huge skritt/magpie for visual effects, which mirrors don't fail to deliver on.

I believe all Deceptions aside from IA (which already has built in cloak) should spawn a mirror. Jaunt should spawn at previous location prior to teleport (strengthening in location evade access, but not in a line when running), Mirage Advance should spawn at previous location (so when you Retreat and detarget, you hit the mirror as well).

Regarding EM - problem now is, if we had 2 dodges returned this would be absolutely overpowered condi cleanse with 2 per dodge. It's also the stupidest trait redesign, in that it is the most uncreative and boring grandmaster major trait I can think of - only cleanse on dodge... like wow, that really excites me... :/ If they give 2 dodges back, then they should also change this trait once again.

Simply, IH should be baseline GM minor trait. There's nothing else to be said here that hasn't been said over what is soon going to be 3 years. It will make mirrors more impactful for all mirage builds (triggering clone evade and ambush), it will make all mirage builds more thematically consistent, and allow the whole spec to be balanced around it - rebalancing all clone ambushes and shifting appropriate amount of damage to player. Speed of Sand should be merged in baseline mirage cloak function.

Nomad's Endurance should absolutely be 2s vigour now. Also we mustn't ignore it gives 150 condi damage with vigour - ie 5 stacks of might worth of condi damage. Perhaps this could be changed to not be skewed to either condi or power. Otherwise vigour is giving big buff to condi, which also can build for more of it through Chaos, but not doing much for power.

Anyway, if Anet wants me to play TB/Dire/Rabid/etc cheese, then so be it. /shrug

Mirrors are awful because you can't control where they spawn and have to run/teleport to them, this make you predictable and makes you either waste time or a resource to get them. While your suggestions improve them they don't solve their issue.There were several suggestions how to make mirrors good since pof released.On top of mind make mirrors do damage if enemy passes through it. Make them get you a point automatically (kind of like clones dot thing) and you F5 to use them.(can't remember who suggested these ones, sorry).

As for visual effects I disagree, it's a rhombus that shatters, nothing special about it.

Tbh the only mirrors you can't control are the ones from Desert Distortion. The problem aside from that is Crystal Sands is very weak for an offensive skill (should do far more damage at least), and False Oasis only has value from the mirror in a stationary fight (due to 3s spawn delay). I think StG is actually decent in the current state of the game, though they could have maybe left it on 25s cooldown rather than increase to 30s.Jaunt nerfs have also had a harmful effect on existence of mirrors - when playing mirage in pve it's crazy how much you can port around all over the place.

Having said that, oddly there are very few mirrors on the spec at all - more like a small addition rather than core feature of the spec. So in that way things could be left as they are and still re-buff normal endurance/dodge access because it's not like mirage would suddenly have "perma evade111!!" with how few mirrors there are.I think Desert Distortion is a weird gimmick trait that potentially should be reconsidered.

Regarding F5, after Chrono, can't see any mesmer spec getting an F5. And tbh I prefer keeping same number of keybindings between specs.Hmm, well I like the shatter visual and sound from the mirror - is satisfying and fun both aurally and visually.

Not sure if I'd want enemies to be able to trigger mirrors - unless there is severe penalty for doing so, eg cc and damage, or triggering all clones to ambush, maybe direct endurance refund, otherwise the enemy can plan to tank damage and remove potential evades to continue pressure. But I do recognise the downsides to mirrors in terms of positioning and predictability - so possibly this could work as:
  • Enemies can break mirrors but doing so will give you and all clones mirage cloak (assuming IH baseline minor) and refund 25 endurance (so you soon have a dodge available).
  • If you break the mirror directly you only get mirage cloak as normal.

Maybe breaking a mirror should apply aoe daze? Just throwing ideas out.

The only mirrors used are from f4, apart from false oasis who is also bad, like you said stationary.

As for F5 it's easy, give F5 to every mesmer spec. B)

Disagree regarding your break mirror suggestion. I mean it should get more benefits if you shatter than if foe break it. Still it would be a throwback to GW1 mesmer:If I break the mirror I take damage and deny an evade, if you catch it you get an evade and access to more damage.

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@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I'm gonna have to stick my neck on the line regarding mirrors - I kind of like them. Guaranteed weakness proc (unlike rng chaos armour), and can delay access to evade for when needed. And I'm also a huge skritt/magpie for visual effects, which mirrors don't fail to deliver on.

I believe all Deceptions aside from IA (which already has built in cloak) should spawn a mirror. Jaunt should spawn at previous location prior to teleport (strengthening in location evade access, but not in a line when running), Mirage Advance should spawn at previous location (so when you Retreat and detarget, you hit the mirror as well).

Regarding EM - problem now is, if we had 2 dodges returned this would be absolutely overpowered condi cleanse with 2 per dodge. It's also the stupidest trait redesign, in that it is the most uncreative and boring grandmaster major trait I can think of - only cleanse on dodge... like wow, that really excites me... :/ If they give 2 dodges back, then they should also change this trait once again.

Simply, IH should be baseline GM minor trait. There's nothing else to be said here that hasn't been said over what is soon going to be 3 years. It will make mirrors more impactful for all mirage builds (triggering clone evade and ambush), it will make all mirage builds more thematically consistent, and allow the whole spec to be balanced around it - rebalancing all clone ambushes and shifting appropriate amount of damage to player. Speed of Sand should be merged in baseline mirage cloak function.

Nomad's Endurance should absolutely be 2s vigour now. Also we mustn't ignore it gives 150 condi damage with vigour - ie 5 stacks of might worth of condi damage. Perhaps this could be changed to not be skewed to either condi or power. Otherwise vigour is giving big buff to condi, which also can build for more of it through Chaos, but not doing much for power.

Anyway, if Anet wants me to play TB/Dire/Rabid/etc cheese, then so be it. /shrug

Mirrors are awful because you can't control where they spawn and have to run/teleport to them, this make you predictable and makes you either waste time or a resource to get them. While your suggestions improve them they don't solve their issue.There were several suggestions how to make mirrors good since pof released.On top of mind make mirrors do damage if enemy passes through it. Make them get you a point automatically (kind of like clones dot thing) and you F5 to use them.(can't remember who suggested these ones, sorry).

As for visual effects I disagree, it's a rhombus that shatters, nothing special about it.

Tbh the only mirrors you can't control are the ones from Desert Distortion. The problem aside from that is Crystal Sands is very weak for an offensive skill (should do far more damage at least), and False Oasis only has value from the mirror in a stationary fight (due to 3s spawn delay). I think StG is actually decent in the current state of the game, though they could have maybe left it on 25s cooldown rather than increase to 30s.Jaunt nerfs have also had a harmful effect on existence of mirrors - when playing mirage in pve it's crazy how much you can port around all over the place.

Having said that, oddly there are very few mirrors on the spec at all - more like a small addition rather than core feature of the spec. So in that way things could be left as they are and still re-buff normal endurance/dodge access because it's not like mirage would suddenly have "perma evade111!!" with how few mirrors there are.I think Desert Distortion is a weird gimmick trait that potentially should be reconsidered.

Regarding F5, after Chrono, can't see any mesmer spec getting an F5. And tbh I prefer keeping same number of keybindings between specs.Hmm, well I like the shatter visual and sound from the mirror - is satisfying and fun both aurally and visually.

Not sure if I'd want enemies to be able to trigger mirrors - unless there is severe penalty for doing so, eg cc and damage, or triggering all clones to ambush, maybe direct endurance refund, otherwise the enemy can plan to tank damage and remove potential evades to continue pressure. But I do recognise the downsides to mirrors in terms of positioning and predictability - so possibly this could work as:
  • Enemies can break mirrors but doing so will give you and all clones mirage cloak (assuming IH baseline minor) and refund 25 endurance (so you soon have a dodge available).
  • If you break the mirror directly you only get mirage cloak as normal.

Maybe breaking a mirror should apply aoe daze? Just throwing ideas out.

The only mirrors used are from f4, apart from false oasis who is also bad, like you said stationary.

As for F5 it's easy, give F5 to every mesmer spec. B)

Disagree regarding your break mirror suggestion. I mean it should get more benefits if you shatter than if foe break it. Still it would be a throwback to GW1 mesmer:If I break the mirror I take damage and deny an evade, if you catch it you get an evade and access to more damage.

Was thinking to disincentivise the enemy from breaking it (because I think right now if mirrors were suddenly two way breakable, they would be very easy for the enemy to just barge through and continue to pressure in melee), more than for the player to have control over when to break it.

Haha, sure they'll give F5... and in the process nerf F1, 2, 3 and 4 into dust. :p

@pninak.1069 said:yea enemies don't really have a reason to destroy mirrors. it just makes them secondary clones. and why destroy mirrors where you need to attack 3 things at once vs just attacking the main mesmer in order to not giving it the opportunity to trigger them.Well I was only thinking about possibilities in the discussion with Lincolnbeard, though personal feeling is that I prefer them to remain breakable by the mirage only. Unless there is a solid idea otherwise - but I think this would have to come with many other changes, including trait reshuffle, skills etc.

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@Curunen.8729 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I'm gonna have to stick my neck on the line regarding mirrors - I kind of like them. Guaranteed weakness proc (unlike rng chaos armour), and can delay access to evade for when needed. And I'm also a huge skritt/magpie for visual effects, which mirrors don't fail to deliver on.

I believe all Deceptions aside from IA (which already has built in cloak) should spawn a mirror. Jaunt should spawn at previous location prior to teleport (strengthening in location evade access, but not in a line when running), Mirage Advance should spawn at previous location (so when you Retreat and detarget, you hit the mirror as well).

Regarding EM - problem now is, if we had 2 dodges returned this would be absolutely overpowered condi cleanse with 2 per dodge. It's also the stupidest trait redesign, in that it is the most uncreative and boring grandmaster major trait I can think of - only cleanse on dodge... like wow, that really excites me... :/ If they give 2 dodges back, then they should also change this trait once again.

Simply, IH should be baseline GM minor trait. There's nothing else to be said here that hasn't been said over what is soon going to be 3 years. It will make mirrors more impactful for all mirage builds (triggering clone evade and ambush), it will make all mirage builds more thematically consistent, and allow the whole spec to be balanced around it - rebalancing all clone ambushes and shifting appropriate amount of damage to player. Speed of Sand should be merged in baseline mirage cloak function.

Nomad's Endurance should absolutely be 2s vigour now. Also we mustn't ignore it gives 150 condi damage with vigour - ie 5 stacks of might worth of condi damage. Perhaps this could be changed to not be skewed to either condi or power. Otherwise vigour is giving big buff to condi, which also can build for more of it through Chaos, but not doing much for power.

Anyway, if Anet wants me to play TB/Dire/Rabid/etc cheese, then so be it. /shrug

Mirrors are awful because you can't control where they spawn and have to run/teleport to them, this make you predictable and makes you either waste time or a resource to get them. While your suggestions improve them they don't solve their issue.There were several suggestions how to make mirrors good since pof released.On top of mind make mirrors do damage if enemy passes through it. Make them get you a point automatically (kind of like clones dot thing) and you F5 to use them.(can't remember who suggested these ones, sorry).

As for visual effects I disagree, it's a rhombus that shatters, nothing special about it.

Tbh the only mirrors you can't control are the ones from Desert Distortion. The problem aside from that is Crystal Sands is very weak for an offensive skill (should do far more damage at least), and False Oasis only has value from the mirror in a stationary fight (due to 3s spawn delay). I think StG is actually decent in the current state of the game, though they could have maybe left it on 25s cooldown rather than increase to 30s.Jaunt nerfs have also had a harmful effect on existence of mirrors - when playing mirage in pve it's crazy how much you can port around all over the place.

Having said that, oddly there are very few mirrors on the spec at all - more like a small addition rather than core feature of the spec. So in that way things could be left as they are and still re-buff normal endurance/dodge access because it's not like mirage would suddenly have "perma evade111!!" with how few mirrors there are.I think Desert Distortion is a weird gimmick trait that potentially should be reconsidered.

Regarding F5, after Chrono, can't see any mesmer spec getting an F5. And tbh I prefer keeping same number of keybindings between specs.Hmm, well I like the shatter visual and sound from the mirror - is satisfying and fun both aurally and visually.

Not sure if I'd want enemies to be able to trigger mirrors - unless there is severe penalty for doing so, eg cc and damage, or triggering all clones to ambush, maybe direct endurance refund, otherwise the enemy can plan to tank damage and remove potential evades to continue pressure. But I do recognise the downsides to mirrors in terms of positioning and predictability - so possibly this could work as:
  • Enemies can break mirrors but doing so will give you and all clones mirage cloak (assuming IH baseline minor) and refund 25 endurance (so you soon have a dodge available).
  • If you break the mirror directly you only get mirage cloak as normal.

Maybe breaking a mirror should apply aoe daze? Just throwing ideas out.

The only mirrors used are from f4, apart from false oasis who is also bad, like you said stationary.

As for F5 it's easy, give F5 to every mesmer spec. B)

Disagree regarding your break mirror suggestion. I mean it should get more benefits if you shatter than if foe break it. Still it would be a throwback to GW1 mesmer:If I break the mirror I take damage and deny an evade, if you catch it you get an evade and access to more damage.

Was thinking to disincentivise the enemy from breaking it (because I think right now if mirrors were suddenly two way breakable, they would be very easy for the enemy to just barge through and continue to pressure in melee), more than for the player to have control over when to break it.

Haha, sure they'll give F5... and in the process nerf F1, 2, 3 and 4 into dust. :p

@pninak.1069 said:yea enemies don't really have a reason to destroy mirrors. it just makes them secondary clones. and why destroy mirrors where you need to attack 3 things at once vs just attacking the main mesmer in order to not giving it the opportunity to trigger them.Well I was only thinking about possibilities in the discussion with Lincolnbeard, though personal feeling is that I prefer them to remain breakable by the mirage only. Unless there is a solid idea otherwise - but I think this would have to come with many other changes, including trait reshuffle, skills etc.

Ah we are seeing this from different pov.I actually want the foe to break the mirror, suddenly, they're the ones being predictable.

I don't know if you played GW1, it is kind of the same idea of backfire+wastrel worry.In case you didn't, backfire was an hex similar to confusion, did x damage everytime you cast a spell.Wastrel's worry was also an hex (lasted 3sec) short CD, pretty spammable) that did y damage if you didn't cast a spell in those 3sec.So you're putting enemy into a choice do I cast a spell and get damaged while also cause damage on my target or do I take wastrel damage.Since wastrel was spammable you were forcing foe to cast a spell. And you could interrupt his cast.

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so you think the enemy has to walk to up to mirror in order to break to otherwise suffer dmg from them.. like sort of a timed bomb. this would justify nerfing overall dmg on mirage in order to bring more counterplay into it. the radius of the explosion radius would have to be pretty big tho. otherwise you won't be able to punish foes that shoot from longrange. for wvw this would mean that mesmer would have a place, because they can sneak near the enemy and place mirror for a surprise spike. overall I think anet would have a harder time balancing this.

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@pninak.1069 said:so you think the enemy has to walk to up to mirror in order to break to otherwise suffer dmg from them.. like sort of a timed bomb. this would justify nerfing overall dmg on mirage in order to bring more counterplay into it. the radius of the explosion radius would have to be pretty big tho. otherwise you won't be able to punish foes that shoot from longrange. for wvw this would mean that mesmer would have a place, because they can sneak near the enemy and place mirror for a surprise spike. overall I think anet would have a harder time balancing this.

You have a choice. Either you deny mirage access to MC or don't. If you want to deny you touch the mirror and break it. Doesn't need a big radius, melee radius is enough.And we are not talking big damage, just the sameish as a 3clone ambush.So no need to nerf mirage damage.It just provide both counterplay to mirrors and a nice mechanic to play with.

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