I feel like it might be time we get a new class. — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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I feel like it might be time we get a new class.

Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

As the title suggests I feel like it might be a good Idea to make a new class, reason being is that E-specs are great and all but upon further deep thought about it they only homogenize classes to be closer in tool kits. In reality all they do is typically add a weapon we can't use on X class with similar animations to Y class which functions close to the same, then we get utilities we don't already have access too. All this does is offer us new ways to play X class but it also makes it closer to Y class, in reality to more E-specs we get the closer we get to all being the same which is not how a game should go about working with their classes. (Id still like to see them, even if we got a new class.)

The Perks of a new class:
1. New skill types that the class itself brings
2. Potential new weapons, which can maybe be worked into E-specs which then can add to classes like warrior who are running out of weapons
3. A new theme
4. A new reason to play older content with the new shiny
5. Potential to bring in something unique that is guild wars 2 (Revenant, messmer are the only guild wars exclusive classes. Could use more.)
6. Creative freedom for the dev's that are not limited to, or linked to the classes we currently have
7. Potential for some lore tid-bits
8. Expansion of the repertoire for which guild was can claim to cater too.
9. The chance to do something done poorly elsewhere, and make it better here.
10. the chance to make something unique, which can attract new people and can be the poster child of the expansion. (Much like the guild wars expansions. Factions, nightfall.)

This then could even maybe wink and nod at things we have had, but never really had a chance to play with. They could for example bring in a Werebeast class, theme it around the norn but not link it explicitly to the norn. It could be a shaman and follow the teachings of the spirits of the wild, as we know anyone can follow their footsteps and thus anyone could in theory and given enough time become a shaman. (The elite specs could he havroun, and Lost Spirit)

They could bring in a golem-mancer, who can climb into golems or summon a small army of them to do the dirty work?

These classes could be made to choose their armor weight so you can decide how you want them to dress, and the cosmeitcs you wear so that way it opens up customization and potential in the creation process. This also gives them a reason to revisit character creation and customization; Classes should effect how your character looks and functions in the world and say a warrior could have scars and a necromancer could have additional warpaint or maybe even horns(For non-charr)? This then would make each class not only feel unique, but your character who is your avatar within the world to better reflect you as a person and the type of character it is you're trying to play.

I feel like sure it might upset balance, but won't E-specs as well? I mean balance is a fragile thing and to maintain it becoming stagnant is a must and I feel like guild wars might as well embrace how outlandish some of its classes can be and add to the roster rather than just try and make band-aid specs. Id love to see both, but if I had to choose I think Id pick a new class over E-specs because lets be honest? A new class is a true new way to play a game. An E-spec is just a new addition which borrows from other classes, to fill a gap your class might not be able to fill or potentially a playstyle your class can't run with due to its current set up. This isn't bad but its also not the best way to move forward, in an ideal world we could get new classes AND E-specs.

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Comments

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't think that we will get another new class or even should.

    Riot intentionally designed the revenant to fill the missing spot for a 3rd heavy armor using class and they surely don't want to break this symmetry again. Also giving the class the choice which kind of armor to wear will just result in almost everyone going for the heavy armor. You should consider that the 3 armor types are not equal when it comes to stats, heavy armor gives you more armor in the game. So the choice is not just about visuals, but also gameplay. And the big majority of players will choose the option that maxes out their stats.

    Another point to consider: You say the new class could bring in a new thematic. But I think that every new thematic you could possibly come up with can already get tied in another existing class through elite specs. Which is exactly what elite specs are supposed to do, expanding the thematics of a class and gameplay.

    Look at the 2 examples you have given for a new class:

    • Werebeast: You are channeling the spirits of the wild, transform into a werebeast. Thematically, this screams ranger. Can easily be made into a ranger elite spec
    • Golemancer: This obviously steps into the thematical niche of the engineer. While I personally don't want a golemancer elite spec for the engineer soon (the next elite spec should focus on chemical warfare in my opinion), if we are ever going to get a golemancer then they will surely become an elite spec for the engineer.

    In general, there is just 1 point in the list of benefits of a new class which can't also get achieved through elite specs: experiencing old content with a new class. Which is also just partially true, since you can go do old content with a new elite spec as well, you are basically just missing out on the experience to level a new class....
    Creating a new class doesn't have enough benefits to get implemented, they should focus on delivering new well designed elite specs instead in the future.

  • We need the monk back!

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You may need the monk back, but we don't.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    We can't get balance between the classes that we have now. Adding more would only complicate things further.

    Balance is an illusion that is unreachable, not unless every class is the same and they play identically.. Unique mechanics, buffs, class Identity all spit in the face of "true balance" I honestly feel like we are in an OK space and once the next part of this balance patch goes live we might be in an even better place. A new class is needed, E-specs go against balance too and bring EVEN more balance issues than a new class would.

    A new class is easier to balance, than a spec that interacts with existing class mechanics and class pieces that may or may not make a specific spec overpowered due to unknown variables.. Players will make variants of builds of which the dev's may or may not think about. When you say we you really mean "Me" Or "I" and honestly I feel your in a minority. A very vocal and otherwise willfully ignorant minority who poop on EVERYTHING anyone wants no matter what it is, it could be guild content, classes, more mounts or whatever else. If you don't agree that is completely fine but I Feel as though you're 100% wrong and im going to discredit and ignore your points you may bring up, as MMO-RPGS need big content to bring in new people and existing players who might of left.

    New classes do this, WoW and BDO has proven this as has ESO and now that I think about it eventually all games add classes and while E-specs may semi-cover this we have had two generations of them. In an ideal world we would get a new class, and the third generation of E-specs with the new class utilizing new mechanics and not requiring an E-spec this expansion due to its entire foundation being new and having HoT, PoF and Canthan Mechanics considered when it was designed. It lacking an E-spec now, means its core can be built to be strong on its own and then when it does get an E-spec it won't be hindered by it (Much like Rev was due to herald.)

    E-specs won't be a huge selling point, it will be an attention grabber but its not truly new. We need new, not more of the status quo and since a race is out of the question and many people don't want a new player race... why not a new class? It is something that can effect everyone, from meta to basic appearence and unique mechanics along with theme? It's time.. And its good to bring it up due to them being early on in development of the expansion, I want them consider this and maybe bring in more unique guild wars/tyrian classes that stand alone when compared to their competition. (It can be a driving force to bring people back, people play wow because of their classes and other games not filling the fantasy. I can't leave guild wars due to revenant being so interesting, and unique and other games have nothing like it. This is healthy for the game)

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:
    I don't think that we will get another new class or even should.

    Riot intentionally designed the revenant to fill the missing spot for a 3rd heavy armor using class and they surely don't want to break this symmetry again. Also giving the class the choice which kind of armor to wear will just result in almost everyone going for the heavy armor. You should consider that the 3 armor types are not equal when it comes to stats, heavy armor gives you more armor in the game. So the choice is not just about visuals, but also gameplay. And the big majority of players will choose the option that maxes out their stats.

    Another point to consider: You say the new class could bring in a new thematic. But I think that every new thematic you could possibly come up with can already get tied in another existing class through elite specs. Which is exactly what elite specs are supposed to do, expanding the thematics of a class and gameplay.

    Look at the 2 examples you have given for a new class:

    • Werebeast: You are channeling the spirits of the wild, transform into a werebeast. Thematically, this screams ranger. Can easily be made into a ranger elite spec
    • Golemancer: This obviously steps into the thematical niche of the engineer. While I personally don't want a golemancer elite spec for the engineer soon (the next elite spec should focus on chemical warfare in my opinion), if we are ever going to get a golemancer then they will surely become an elite spec for the engineer.

    In general, there is just 1 point in the list of benefits of a new class which can't also get achieved through elite specs: experiencing old content with a new class. Which is also just partially true, since you can go do old content with a new elite spec as well, you are basically just missing out on the experience to level a new class....
    Creating a new class doesn't have enough benefits to get implemented, they should focus on delivering new well designed elite specs instead in the future.

    I said in an ideal world we would get both, E-specs do not equate to new classes. Especially on marketability.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Not a good idea, new class would be an absurd amount of work.

    Not only would you need a new class but it would have to come with 2 elite specs to make it "fair"
    Add to that it would imbalance the armour tiers.. adding a new light would make people want a new medium and heavy too so they wouldn't be able to add just 1 new class they'd need to add 3 and each of them would need 2 specs each too meaning to make adding new classes fair we'd need 3 new professions with 6 new elite specs, and then there's the balancing problem..

    Just adding 9 new elite specs per expansion is already a headache.. adding 3 new professions now would be a foolish thing to do and likely do far more harm than good.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Not a good idea, new class would be an absurd amount of work.

    Not only would you need a new class but it would have to come with 2 elite specs to make it "fair"
    Add to that it would imbalance the armour tiers.. adding a new light would make people want a new medium and heavy too so they wouldn't be able to add just 1 new class they'd need to add 3 and each of them would need 2 specs each too meaning to make adding new classes fair we'd need 3 new professions with 6 new elite specs, and then there's the balancing problem..

    Just adding 9 new elite specs per expansion is already a headache.. adding 3 new professions now would be a foolish thing to do and likely do far more harm than good.

    Everything is an absurd amount of work, new maps, masteries, mounts, E-specs, guild stuff, WvW, PvP, Raids, Strikes, Visions and the list goes on? I suppose they should stop doing those as well since its an absurd level of work? I mean sure why not if it means we can get "Quality content." The arguement goes both ways friend.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Not a good idea, new class would be an absurd amount of work.

    Not only would you need a new class but it would have to come with 2 elite specs to make it "fair"
    Add to that it would imbalance the armour tiers.. adding a new light would make people want a new medium and heavy too so they wouldn't be able to add just 1 new class they'd need to add 3 and each of them would need 2 specs each too meaning to make adding new classes fair we'd need 3 new professions with 6 new elite specs, and then there's the balancing problem..

    Just adding 9 new elite specs per expansion is already a headache.. adding 3 new professions now would be a foolish thing to do and likely do far more harm than good.

    Everything is an absurd amount of work, new maps, masteries, mounts, E-specs, guild stuff, WvW, PvP, Raids, Strikes, Visions and the list goes on? I suppose they should stop doing those as well since its an absurd level of work? I mean sure why not if it means we can get "Quality content." The arguement goes both ways friend.

    Yes but those things are expected and you could probably consider the normal amount of work for this game and has been for years.
    Adding new classes would be like adding another permanent work volume on top of all the current expectations.

    Balancing 9 classes and 18 Elite specs is already difficult and painful enough.. with the next expansion that's potentially another 9 elite specs thrown in on top..
    Adding 3 whole new proffessions with 6-9 elite specs on top of that would be absurdly foolish and needlessly pointless.. I wouldn't be surprised if some classes and specs got straight up written off with that kind of workload demand.
    Some would claim that already happens with the current list of classes and specs.

    There's good reason why some content gets ignored for a while and why so many masteries end up as irrelevant.
    Hell people are always complaining about this class or that class in one game mode or another, just because perfecting balancing is impossible as you said doesn't mean you should intentionally make it a total clusterkitten just for the sake of adding something new.
    That's very short term gains for monumental long term problems, it's just not worth it.

    This is more or less the reason why Gw2's duel profession system was scrapped in the first place, not to mention why so many Gw1 skills got axed.
    As much as I've love more skills and duel professions it would totally break the game.. same as new classes would at this point.
    Elite Specs are the best solution to this problem even if they also contribute to it.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Not a good idea, new class would be an absurd amount of work.

    Not only would you need a new class but it would have to come with 2 elite specs to make it "fair"
    Add to that it would imbalance the armour tiers.. adding a new light would make people want a new medium and heavy too so they wouldn't be able to add just 1 new class they'd need to add 3 and each of them would need 2 specs each too meaning to make adding new classes fair we'd need 3 new professions with 6 new elite specs, and then there's the balancing problem..

    Just adding 9 new elite specs per expansion is already a headache.. adding 3 new professions now would be a foolish thing to do and likely do far more harm than good.

    Everything is an absurd amount of work, new maps, masteries, mounts, E-specs, guild stuff, WvW, PvP, Raids, Strikes, Visions and the list goes on? I suppose they should stop doing those as well since its an absurd level of work? I mean sure why not if it means we can get "Quality content." The arguement goes both ways friend.

    Yes but those things are expected and you could probably consider the normal amount of work for this game and has been for years.
    Adding new classes would be like adding another permanent work volume on top of all the current expectations.

    Balancing 9 classes and 18 Elite specs is already difficult and painful enough.. with the next expansion that's potentially another 9 elite specs thrown in on top..
    Adding 3 whole new proffessions with 6-9 elite specs on top of that would be absurdly foolish and needlessly pointless.. I wouldn't be surprised if some classes and specs got straight up written off with that kind of workload demand.
    Some would claim that already happens with the current list of classes and specs.

    There's good reason why some content gets ignored for a while and why so many masteries end up as irrelevant.
    Hell people are always complaining about this class or that class in one game mode or another, just because perfecting balancing is impossible as you said doesn't mean you should intentionally make it a total clusterkitten just for the sake of adding something new.
    That's very short term gains for monumental long term problems, it's just not worth it.

    This is more or less the reason why Gw2's duel profession system was scrapped in the first place, not to mention why so many Gw1 skills got axed.
    As much as I've love more skills and duel professions it would totally break the game.. same as new classes would at this point.
    Elite Specs are the best solution to this problem even if they also contribute to it.

    I actually think they could Axe the E-specs together, and compromise by making three new classes with two E-specs each. This means that sure our current roster would get nothing new but there are TONS of people I've spoken too who don't want E-specs at all.. (Insane I know)

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2020

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Not a good idea, new class would be an absurd amount of work.

    Not only would you need a new class but it would have to come with 2 elite specs to make it "fair"
    Add to that it would imbalance the armour tiers.. adding a new light would make people want a new medium and heavy too so they wouldn't be able to add just 1 new class they'd need to add 3 and each of them would need 2 specs each too meaning to make adding new classes fair we'd need 3 new professions with 6 new elite specs, and then there's the balancing problem..

    Just adding 9 new elite specs per expansion is already a headache.. adding 3 new professions now would be a foolish thing to do and likely do far more harm than good.

    Everything is an absurd amount of work, new maps, masteries, mounts, E-specs, guild stuff, WvW, PvP, Raids, Strikes, Visions and the list goes on? I suppose they should stop doing those as well since its an absurd level of work? I mean sure why not if it means we can get "Quality content." The arguement goes both ways friend.

    Yes but those things are expected and you could probably consider the normal amount of work for this game and has been for years.
    Adding new classes would be like adding another permanent work volume on top of all the current expectations.

    Balancing 9 classes and 18 Elite specs is already difficult and painful enough.. with the next expansion that's potentially another 9 elite specs thrown in on top..
    Adding 3 whole new proffessions with 6-9 elite specs on top of that would be absurdly foolish and needlessly pointless.. I wouldn't be surprised if some classes and specs got straight up written off with that kind of workload demand.
    Some would claim that already happens with the current list of classes and specs.

    There's good reason why some content gets ignored for a while and why so many masteries end up as irrelevant.
    Hell people are always complaining about this class or that class in one game mode or another, just because perfecting balancing is impossible as you said doesn't mean you should intentionally make it a total clusterkitten just for the sake of adding something new.
    That's very short term gains for monumental long term problems, it's just not worth it.

    This is more or less the reason why Gw2's duel profession system was scrapped in the first place, not to mention why so many Gw1 skills got axed.
    As much as I've love more skills and duel professions it would totally break the game.. same as new classes would at this point.
    Elite Specs are the best solution to this problem even if they also contribute to it.

    I actually think they could Axe the E-specs together, and compromise by making three new classes with two E-specs each. This means that sure our current roster would get nothing new but there are TONS of people I've spoken too who don't want E-specs at all.. (Insane I know)

    That might appease some people but I'd think it would disappoint more overall.

    If they added new classes and give nothing to old ones many might feel cheated by it, probably more so than just not having new specs.
    If the new professions came with expansions too there would be no end of pay to win claims from those who only play the pvp side and don't care for buying new content.
    Specially if the new professions and their specs are just poorly balanced.

    Pretty sure a similar thing happened when the first batch of Elite specs came out as well.
    The last thing a lot of people want to do with new content too is roll a whole new character, learn how to use it and and rush to the new stuff, most want to take their favourites and just jump straight on and play.
    Providing they came with an expansion which considering the work load required I'd assume would be the only way to do it.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Not a good idea, new class would be an absurd amount of work.

    Not only would you need a new class but it would have to come with 2 elite specs to make it "fair"
    Add to that it would imbalance the armour tiers.. adding a new light would make people want a new medium and heavy too so they wouldn't be able to add just 1 new class they'd need to add 3 and each of them would need 2 specs each too meaning to make adding new classes fair we'd need 3 new professions with 6 new elite specs, and then there's the balancing problem..

    Just adding 9 new elite specs per expansion is already a headache.. adding 3 new professions now would be a foolish thing to do and likely do far more harm than good.

    Everything is an absurd amount of work, new maps, masteries, mounts, E-specs, guild stuff, WvW, PvP, Raids, Strikes, Visions and the list goes on? I suppose they should stop doing those as well since its an absurd level of work? I mean sure why not if it means we can get "Quality content." The arguement goes both ways friend.

    Yes but those things are expected and you could probably consider the normal amount of work for this game and has been for years.
    Adding new classes would be like adding another permanent work volume on top of all the current expectations.

    Balancing 9 classes and 18 Elite specs is already difficult and painful enough.. with the next expansion that's potentially another 9 elite specs thrown in on top..
    Adding 3 whole new proffessions with 6-9 elite specs on top of that would be absurdly foolish and needlessly pointless.. I wouldn't be surprised if some classes and specs got straight up written off with that kind of workload demand.
    Some would claim that already happens with the current list of classes and specs.

    There's good reason why some content gets ignored for a while and why so many masteries end up as irrelevant.
    Hell people are always complaining about this class or that class in one game mode or another, just because perfecting balancing is impossible as you said doesn't mean you should intentionally make it a total clusterkitten just for the sake of adding something new.
    That's very short term gains for monumental long term problems, it's just not worth it.

    This is more or less the reason why Gw2's duel profession system was scrapped in the first place, not to mention why so many Gw1 skills got axed.
    As much as I've love more skills and duel professions it would totally break the game.. same as new classes would at this point.
    Elite Specs are the best solution to this problem even if they also contribute to it.

    I actually think they could Axe the E-specs together, and compromise by making three new classes with two E-specs each. This means that sure our current roster would get nothing new but there are TONS of people I've spoken too who don't want E-specs at all.. (Insane I know)

    That might appease some people but I'd think it would disappoint more overall.

    If they added new classes and give nothing to old ones many might feel cheated by it, probably more so than just not having new specs.
    If the new professions came with expansions too there would be no end of pay to win claims from those who only play the pvp side and don't care for buying new content.
    Specially if the new professions and their specs are just poorly balanced.

    Pretty sure a similar thing happened when the first batch of Elite specs came out as well.
    The last thing a lot of people want to do with new content too is roll a whole new character, learn how to use it and and rush to the new stuff, most want to take their favourites and just jump straight on and play.
    Providing they came with an expansion which considering the work load required I'd assume would be the only way to do it.

    So why not just not do any of it? Just leave classes as they are. No pay to win then yea? People will kitten no matter what they do. Might as well go big or go home at this point.. The community is upset no matter WHAT they do, or HOW they do it.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭

    E-specs are a major selling point of the expansions and I would guess that the big majority of people are looking forward to getting new specs to enhance their already beloved characters. Axing e-specs in favour of a new class surely won't happen.

    And there are many points you didn't address. Like I said, they finally reached a balance between the armor classes with the addition of revenant. Why would they want to destroy this again by adding another class? And giving free choice on armor classes doesn't make sense gameplaywise since everyone will choose the heavy armor then anyway simply because of the armor benefit.

    And e-specs are able to deliver most of the things you are asking for with a new class like new mechanics, new thematics, new lore.... all this stuff can easily be done by giving us new exciting e-specs.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:
    E-specs are a major selling point of the expansions and I would guess that the big majority of people are looking forward to getting new specs to enhance their already beloved characters. Axing e-specs in favour of a new class surely won't happen.

    And there are many points you didn't address. Like I said, they finally reached a balance between the armor classes with the addition of revenant. Why would they want to destroy this again by adding another class? And giving free choice on armor classes doesn't make sense gameplaywise since everyone will choose the heavy armor then anyway simply because of the armor benefit.

    And e-specs are able to deliver most of the things you are asking for with a new class like new mechanics, new thematics, new lore.... all this stuff can easily be done by giving us new exciting e-specs.

    E-specs really don't I am looking forward too them, but as I said they are a selling point for people already invested in the game. Those outside of our sphere will just shrug it off, as is the case with many people I know personally. They never cared about mounts or E-specs.... they want something the game doesn't provide which is a theme we have yet to cover, which an E-spec might not be able to tackle. (Because then like the ones who had their own theme they might need to be siphoned down because they have too much going on.)

    I understand a hear what you're saying, but we need a big selling point which will bring lots of attention to the game. HoT had revenant and E-specs, and masteries and all of those systems.

    PoF wasn't as big of a deal because it just had mounts, which didn't really draw people from outside of our community. They need to pull in the old fans who have left, maintain us and gain new fans that will be new to the game as a whole. E-specs alone won't do this~

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Not a good idea, new class would be an absurd amount of work.

    Not only would you need a new class but it would have to come with 2 elite specs to make it "fair"
    Add to that it would imbalance the armour tiers.. adding a new light would make people want a new medium and heavy too so they wouldn't be able to add just 1 new class they'd need to add 3 and each of them would need 2 specs each too meaning to make adding new classes fair we'd need 3 new professions with 6 new elite specs, and then there's the balancing problem..

    Just adding 9 new elite specs per expansion is already a headache.. adding 3 new professions now would be a foolish thing to do and likely do far more harm than good.

    Everything is an absurd amount of work, new maps, masteries, mounts, E-specs, guild stuff, WvW, PvP, Raids, Strikes, Visions and the list goes on? I suppose they should stop doing those as well since its an absurd level of work? I mean sure why not if it means we can get "Quality content." The arguement goes both ways friend.

    Yes but those things are expected and you could probably consider the normal amount of work for this game and has been for years.
    Adding new classes would be like adding another permanent work volume on top of all the current expectations.

    Balancing 9 classes and 18 Elite specs is already difficult and painful enough.. with the next expansion that's potentially another 9 elite specs thrown in on top..
    Adding 3 whole new proffessions with 6-9 elite specs on top of that would be absurdly foolish and needlessly pointless.. I wouldn't be surprised if some classes and specs got straight up written off with that kind of workload demand.
    Some would claim that already happens with the current list of classes and specs.

    There's good reason why some content gets ignored for a while and why so many masteries end up as irrelevant.
    Hell people are always complaining about this class or that class in one game mode or another, just because perfecting balancing is impossible as you said doesn't mean you should intentionally make it a total clusterkitten just for the sake of adding something new.
    That's very short term gains for monumental long term problems, it's just not worth it.

    This is more or less the reason why Gw2's duel profession system was scrapped in the first place, not to mention why so many Gw1 skills got axed.
    As much as I've love more skills and duel professions it would totally break the game.. same as new classes would at this point.
    Elite Specs are the best solution to this problem even if they also contribute to it.

    I actually think they could Axe the E-specs together, and compromise by making three new classes with two E-specs each. This means that sure our current roster would get nothing new but there are TONS of people I've spoken too who don't want E-specs at all.. (Insane I know)

    I would pick new E spec over new classes. I can't swap the class on my character.

  • montecristo.1324montecristo.1324 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kontrolle.3514 said:
    We need the monk back!

    thief is missing a support spec. I think if we go to cantha it might be a possible candidate for a monk espec. Something like small heals with high mobility, in contrast with the support meta we had till now of low mobility classes with high heals.

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭✭

    How would a new class be a bigger selling point than e-specs? E-specs not only give me new stuff for the class(es) I play, but also a big reason to revisit the ones I don't. Among 9 of them, I'm bound to find at least one to love, and that was the case for both HoT and PoF. A new class is a hit or miss, that even if I do like, it would require me to stop playing my existing characters.

    As for new players, how does a new class make a difference? The existing classes would be as new to them as the 10th one.

    As for PoF only adding mounts, I saw tons of mentions of GW2 in general gaming fora and on reddit simply because how good the execution of mounts was. Nobody is going to discuss an mmo because they added a new class, why would that be noteworthy to a non-player?

    Then, there's the problem of e-specs for that class. Would anet have to launch the class together with the two e-specs the other classes have and a third for Cantha? If yes, it's a huge amount of work, 33% more e-specs to make on top of designing an entire new class. If no, then how do you make the class not feel extremely shallow and rushed compared to the other 9 and how do you make it diverse enough to have a place in the game's multiple game modes?

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    I would rather new elite specs. They are much better than a new class in many ways that have already been covered. If Anet somehow has the resources to do both in the expansion, then I would rather they added other things instead of a new class. They could add new base weapons to some classes or even fill in the missing utility and elite skills. They could also make new skills that are earnable from the Luxons and Kurzicks, similar to certain skills in GW1. There are many ways they could add to progress our characters alongside the elite specs. They could make some of these harder to unlock as longer term goals, since the elite spec is the main thing everyone wants to unlock easily and play straight away.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Not a good idea, new class would be an absurd amount of work.

    Not only would you need a new class but it would have to come with 2 elite specs to make it "fair"
    Add to that it would imbalance the armour tiers.. adding a new light would make people want a new medium and heavy too so they wouldn't be able to add just 1 new class they'd need to add 3 and each of them would need 2 specs each too meaning to make adding new classes fair we'd need 3 new professions with 6 new elite specs, and then there's the balancing problem..

    Just adding 9 new elite specs per expansion is already a headache.. adding 3 new professions now would be a foolish thing to do and likely do far more harm than good.

    Everything is an absurd amount of work, new maps, masteries, mounts, E-specs, guild stuff, WvW, PvP, Raids, Strikes, Visions and the list goes on? I suppose they should stop doing those as well since its an absurd level of work? I mean sure why not if it means we can get "Quality content." The arguement goes both ways friend.

    Yes but those things are expected and you could probably consider the normal amount of work for this game and has been for years.
    Adding new classes would be like adding another permanent work volume on top of all the current expectations.

    Balancing 9 classes and 18 Elite specs is already difficult and painful enough.. with the next expansion that's potentially another 9 elite specs thrown in on top..
    Adding 3 whole new proffessions with 6-9 elite specs on top of that would be absurdly foolish and needlessly pointless.. I wouldn't be surprised if some classes and specs got straight up written off with that kind of workload demand.
    Some would claim that already happens with the current list of classes and specs.

    There's good reason why some content gets ignored for a while and why so many masteries end up as irrelevant.
    Hell people are always complaining about this class or that class in one game mode or another, just because perfecting balancing is impossible as you said doesn't mean you should intentionally make it a total clusterkitten just for the sake of adding something new.
    That's very short term gains for monumental long term problems, it's just not worth it.

    This is more or less the reason why Gw2's duel profession system was scrapped in the first place, not to mention why so many Gw1 skills got axed.
    As much as I've love more skills and duel professions it would totally break the game.. same as new classes would at this point.
    Elite Specs are the best solution to this problem even if they also contribute to it.

    I actually think they could Axe the E-specs together, and compromise by making three new classes with two E-specs each. This means that sure our current roster would get nothing new but there are TONS of people I've spoken too who don't want E-specs at all.. (Insane I know)

    That might appease some people but I'd think it would disappoint more overall.

    If they added new classes and give nothing to old ones many might feel cheated by it, probably more so than just not having new specs.
    If the new professions came with expansions too there would be no end of pay to win claims from those who only play the pvp side and don't care for buying new content.
    Specially if the new professions and their specs are just poorly balanced.

    Pretty sure a similar thing happened when the first batch of Elite specs came out as well.
    The last thing a lot of people want to do with new content too is roll a whole new character, learn how to use it and and rush to the new stuff, most want to take their favourites and just jump straight on and play.
    Providing they came with an expansion which considering the work load required I'd assume would be the only way to do it.

    So why not just not do any of it? Just leave classes as they are. No pay to win then yea? People will kitten no matter what they do. Might as well go big or go home at this point.. The community is upset no matter WHAT they do, or HOW they do it.

    Well as Kodama said they sell expansions for one.

    But like I said adding new specs each expansion complicates things.. adding new professions turns said complications into a huge clusterkitten instead.
    Not worth it, specially if it flat out kills competitive modes which are always a mess after new specs come along.. dread to think what 3 new professions and 9 specs would do to it xD

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Not a good idea, new class would be an absurd amount of work.

    Not only would you need a new class but it would have to come with 2 elite specs to make it "fair"
    Add to that it would imbalance the armour tiers.. adding a new light would make people want a new medium and heavy too so they wouldn't be able to add just 1 new class they'd need to add 3 and each of them would need 2 specs each too meaning to make adding new classes fair we'd need 3 new professions with 6 new elite specs, and then there's the balancing problem..

    Just adding 9 new elite specs per expansion is already a headache.. adding 3 new professions now would be a foolish thing to do and likely do far more harm than good.

    Everything is an absurd amount of work, new maps, masteries, mounts, E-specs, guild stuff, WvW, PvP, Raids, Strikes, Visions and the list goes on? I suppose they should stop doing those as well since its an absurd level of work? I mean sure why not if it means we can get "Quality content." The arguement goes both ways friend.

    Yes but those things are expected and you could probably consider the normal amount of work for this game and has been for years.
    Adding new classes would be like adding another permanent work volume on top of all the current expectations.

    Balancing 9 classes and 18 Elite specs is already difficult and painful enough.. with the next expansion that's potentially another 9 elite specs thrown in on top..
    Adding 3 whole new proffessions with 6-9 elite specs on top of that would be absurdly foolish and needlessly pointless.. I wouldn't be surprised if some classes and specs got straight up written off with that kind of workload demand.
    Some would claim that already happens with the current list of classes and specs.

    There's good reason why some content gets ignored for a while and why so many masteries end up as irrelevant.
    Hell people are always complaining about this class or that class in one game mode or another, just because perfecting balancing is impossible as you said doesn't mean you should intentionally make it a total clusterkitten just for the sake of adding something new.
    That's very short term gains for monumental long term problems, it's just not worth it.

    This is more or less the reason why Gw2's duel profession system was scrapped in the first place, not to mention why so many Gw1 skills got axed.
    As much as I've love more skills and duel professions it would totally break the game.. same as new classes would at this point.
    Elite Specs are the best solution to this problem even if they also contribute to it.

    I actually think they could Axe the E-specs together, and compromise by making three new classes with two E-specs each. This means that sure our current roster would get nothing new but there are TONS of people I've spoken too who don't want E-specs at all.. (Insane I know)

    That might appease some people but I'd think it would disappoint more overall.

    If they added new classes and give nothing to old ones many might feel cheated by it, probably more so than just not having new specs.
    If the new professions came with expansions too there would be no end of pay to win claims from those who only play the pvp side and don't care for buying new content.
    Specially if the new professions and their specs are just poorly balanced.

    Pretty sure a similar thing happened when the first batch of Elite specs came out as well.
    The last thing a lot of people want to do with new content too is roll a whole new character, learn how to use it and and rush to the new stuff, most want to take their favourites and just jump straight on and play.
    Providing they came with an expansion which considering the work load required I'd assume would be the only way to do it.

    So why not just not do any of it? Just leave classes as they are. No pay to win then yea? People will kitten no matter what they do. Might as well go big or go home at this point.. The community is upset no matter WHAT they do, or HOW they do it.

    Well as Kodama said they sell expansions for one.

    But like I said adding new specs each expansion complicates things.. adding new professions turns said complications into a huge clusterkitten instead.
    Not worth it, specially if it flat out kills competitive modes which are always a mess after new specs come along.. dread to think what 3 new professions and 9 specs would do to it xD

    Simple fix is that the NEW proffesion (No need to make three in one expansion, save two for the future ya know?) They don't receive E-specs this expansion due to the fact that they will have the current mantra/mechanics in their core kit. Meaning their core kit would already be on a kind of E-spec sort of phase; This means that one new class and the E-specs that came for other classes would still keep everyone happy.. Those who want something truly new, and hell maybe even new players that typically come for new classes would be appeased..

    Ill be honest if every other freak'n game on the market can do it, and manage to make it work than A-net has no excuse outside of willpower and ability/creativity. And I know that the community has no faith in them to do anything right it seems like, hell even I don't believe in them as much as I used too. But I think if they wanted too they could do this and make it work; People said we would never see mounts and look what appeared magically one day. Races, classes hell all the stuff they've ever said they wouldn't do and all the things they say in general mean next to nothing. They change their mind all the time, so again if it became something they wanted to do for whatever reason im pretty sure that they would do it~ and not give a dang what we think or want. (They never have before, why start now.)

    I personally just want a shapeshifting werebeast, or someone who becomes a big monster and can switch between stages of them-self. Yea like the druid from diablo/WoW but I want that because its a fantasy I enjoy. I wanted the norn to be that as a race and simply whenever they enter combat they transform into this werebeast that just lays into people. But they never let it happen, and honestly its a fantasy Id love to see in guild wars 2's engine and Id love to see racial classes/specs emerge that are entirely dependent on your race that take our racial skills and amp them/make passives around them so we can play that kind of fantasy. But the community again poo poos on anything thats not the status quo.

  • DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    People here are saying that new class is too much work, lol.

    But your class is your game, and I'd love something new. Actually, new class is a lot easier to balance than the old ones - nobody has set expectations and there are no fanboys of any mechanic.

    Why not just wear sword on every class and hit with autoattack through lv 1-80+

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭✭

    That other MMOs introduce new classes is hardly a strong argument, it implies that because others do it, it's inherently desirable. There are wow players asking for different specialisations for the existing classes, especially those that are locked into dps for all 3 specs, so they would consider the fact gw2 gets new elite specs each expansion a better deal.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:
    That other MMOs introduce new classes is hardly a strong argument, it implies that because others do it, it's inherently desirable. There are wow players asking for different specialisations for the existing classes, especially those that are locked into dps for all 3 specs, so they would consider the fact gw2 gets new elite specs each expansion a better deal.

    Granted this is true, but at the same time every game has mounts which was the argument as to why people wanted them. Other games add new classes and those new classes build more hype than our E-specs. I know plenty of people who only went to WoW for demon hunter, or people who only went to BDO for the class they added at the time. A new class is something truly new, a E-spec is new mechanics for existing stuff that you have to reach end-game to begin playing with rather than a new class that new players can begin playing with immediately after getting the expansion.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Not a good idea, new class would be an absurd amount of work.

    Not only would you need a new class but it would have to come with 2 elite specs to make it "fair"
    Add to that it would imbalance the armour tiers.. adding a new light would make people want a new medium and heavy too so they wouldn't be able to add just 1 new class they'd need to add 3 and each of them would need 2 specs each too meaning to make adding new classes fair we'd need 3 new professions with 6 new elite specs, and then there's the balancing problem..

    Just adding 9 new elite specs per expansion is already a headache.. adding 3 new professions now would be a foolish thing to do and likely do far more harm than good.

    Everything is an absurd amount of work, new maps, masteries, mounts, E-specs, guild stuff, WvW, PvP, Raids, Strikes, Visions and the list goes on? I suppose they should stop doing those as well since its an absurd level of work? I mean sure why not if it means we can get "Quality content." The arguement goes both ways friend.

    Yes but those things are expected and you could probably consider the normal amount of work for this game and has been for years.
    Adding new classes would be like adding another permanent work volume on top of all the current expectations.

    Balancing 9 classes and 18 Elite specs is already difficult and painful enough.. with the next expansion that's potentially another 9 elite specs thrown in on top..
    Adding 3 whole new proffessions with 6-9 elite specs on top of that would be absurdly foolish and needlessly pointless.. I wouldn't be surprised if some classes and specs got straight up written off with that kind of workload demand.
    Some would claim that already happens with the current list of classes and specs.

    There's good reason why some content gets ignored for a while and why so many masteries end up as irrelevant.
    Hell people are always complaining about this class or that class in one game mode or another, just because perfecting balancing is impossible as you said doesn't mean you should intentionally make it a total clusterkitten just for the sake of adding something new.
    That's very short term gains for monumental long term problems, it's just not worth it.

    This is more or less the reason why Gw2's duel profession system was scrapped in the first place, not to mention why so many Gw1 skills got axed.
    As much as I've love more skills and duel professions it would totally break the game.. same as new classes would at this point.
    Elite Specs are the best solution to this problem even if they also contribute to it.

    I actually think they could Axe the E-specs together, and compromise by making three new classes with two E-specs each. This means that sure our current roster would get nothing new but there are TONS of people I've spoken too who don't want E-specs at all.. (Insane I know)

    That might appease some people but I'd think it would disappoint more overall.

    If they added new classes and give nothing to old ones many might feel cheated by it, probably more so than just not having new specs.
    If the new professions came with expansions too there would be no end of pay to win claims from those who only play the pvp side and don't care for buying new content.
    Specially if the new professions and their specs are just poorly balanced.

    Pretty sure a similar thing happened when the first batch of Elite specs came out as well.
    The last thing a lot of people want to do with new content too is roll a whole new character, learn how to use it and and rush to the new stuff, most want to take their favourites and just jump straight on and play.
    Providing they came with an expansion which considering the work load required I'd assume would be the only way to do it.

    So why not just not do any of it? Just leave classes as they are. No pay to win then yea? People will kitten no matter what they do. Might as well go big or go home at this point.. The community is upset no matter WHAT they do, or HOW they do it.

    Well as Kodama said they sell expansions for one.

    But like I said adding new specs each expansion complicates things.. adding new professions turns said complications into a huge clusterkitten instead.
    Not worth it, specially if it flat out kills competitive modes which are always a mess after new specs come along.. dread to think what 3 new professions and 9 specs would do to it xD

    Simple fix is that the NEW proffesion (No need to make three in one expansion, save two for the future ya know?) They don't receive E-specs this expansion due to the fact that they will have the current mantra/mechanics in their core kit. Meaning their core kit would already be on a kind of E-spec sort of phase; This means that one new class and the E-specs that came for other classes would still keep everyone happy.. Those who want something truly new, and hell maybe even new players that typically come for new classes would be appeased..

    That just wouldn't work.. having new classes as a base which can compare to old ones with elite specs would be absurdly OP.
    Either they would have massive powercreap on old classes or as a base they would have more base skills and trait lines to compensate which would cause even more issues down the road when they do get elite specs.
    This is the whole reason why Especs were limited to 1 per character and why you can't be a Reaper Scourge at the same time.. these new classes would essentially be that very thing if they were balanced this way, just lacking the mechanical changes of an Espec.

    Anet has already said in the past it doesnt want Especs to replace or straight up enhance core kits but rather offer a different way to play a class.
    If they did bring in new classes it would have to be in line with this model with the same restrictions.. new class plus specs and it's just not worth doing for so many reasons.

    Ill be honest if every other freak'n game on the market can do it, and manage to make it work than A-net has no excuse outside of willpower and ability/creativity. And I know that the community has no faith in them to do anything right it seems like, hell even I don't believe in them as much as I used too. But I think if they wanted too they could do this and make it work; People said we would never see mounts and look what appeared magically one day. Races, classes hell all the stuff they've ever said they wouldn't do and all the things they say in general mean next to nothing. They change their mind all the time, so again if it became something they wanted to do for whatever reason im pretty sure that they would do it~ and not give a dang what we think or want. (They never have before, why start now.)

    Other games are not like Gw2 though, lord knows so many of them have balance issues because they added new classes etc.
    Early on Anet scrapped the duel profession system as I said and restricted Racial impact to largely cosmetic purposes.. hence racial skills being more of a gimmick than actually useful.
    This was done to avoid obvious balance problems that were not worth the headache.
    As others said too, Revenant was only added later on with it's first elite spec to round out the 9 classes and the lacking 3rd heavy armour class.
    Had there been a 3rd one from launch they never would have made the Revenant.. or at least they never would have given players the ability to play as one.

    People said they'd never do mounts and if you recall there was a lot of uncertainty when they were announced.. then when we saw them and how they were done we realized how unique and different they were to how any other generic MMO does them and that sold a lot of people on them, myself included.
    When mounts did finally come into the game, despite upgrades to core Tyria maps they absolutely broke the game allowing them in core Tyria.
    Finding ways to break out of maps and skip content like Jumping puzzles is extremely easy to do with mounts even now, but this is ultimately harmless and only effects your personal experience if you choose to use them this way.
    Gliding if you remember was originally locked out of core Tyria for more or less the same reason.. and even back then these were valid concerns.

    Ultimately what mounts and gliding didn't do though was drastically complicate balance between classes.
    This is mainly because they do not have combat utility outside of a single enter skill, plus the fact their uses are limited in competitive modes like WvW.
    That still doesn't stop people complaining about Warclaw being the biggest mistake Anet ever made though.. and to be fair, despite favouring the Warclaw there are some valid arguments against it.

    I personally just want a shapeshifting werebeast, or someone who becomes a big monster and can switch between stages of them-self. Yea like the druid from diablo/WoW but I want that because its a fantasy I enjoy. I wanted the norn to be that as a race and simply whenever they enter combat they transform into this werebeast that just lays into people. But they never let it happen, and honestly its a fantasy Id love to see in guild wars 2's engine and Id love to see racial classes/specs emerge that are entirely dependent on your race that take our racial skills and amp them/make passives around them so we can play that kind of fantasy. But the community again poo poos on anything thats not the status quo.

    You can argue for more use in PvE racial skills, I honestly would support that as it's something I too would like but just because they are gimmick skills doesn't mean you can't use them or make builds that do.
    I'd actually prefer racial skills to become F6-9 skills which would only be usable in open world PvE, not fractals, raids, strikes or any kind of content like that just the general PvE.
    But im not against PvE exclusive racial traitlines that enhance some elements of race.. that would be a fun thing to have and being forced to sacrifice a profession traitline to use it is something that would be a fair trade off.
    That said I have a Norn Warewolf build myself which isn't finished yet but im planning to run through the whole PvE game with it eventually just for fun.
    So you can play a shapeshifter if you want, you just can't be a shapeshifting monster that can obliterate all in it's path with ease.

  • @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    We can't get balance between the classes that we have now. Adding more would only complicate things further.

    Balance is an illusion that is unreachable

    More like balance is a progress and it is everchanging...

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

    And what role should the new class fill?

    Just curios.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    And what role should the new class fill?

    Just curios.

    Could fill any role, considering there are not hard-roles in this game it could just be similar in that it can multi-role. I mean guild wars 2 has a very tiny trinity, and id honestly say its kinda like.... all damage? I mean Top end groups for raiding maximize dps even on their supports. And wvw and PvP its either bunker, hybrid or power/condi dps. So Im not quite sure what would stop them from letting it fill any and all roles.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Not a good idea, new class would be an absurd amount of work.

    Not only would you need a new class but it would have to come with 2 elite specs to make it "fair"
    Add to that it would imbalance the armour tiers.. adding a new light would make people want a new medium and heavy too so they wouldn't be able to add just 1 new class they'd need to add 3 and each of them would need 2 specs each too meaning to make adding new classes fair we'd need 3 new professions with 6 new elite specs, and then there's the balancing problem..

    Just adding 9 new elite specs per expansion is already a headache.. adding 3 new professions now would be a foolish thing to do and likely do far more harm than good.

    Everything is an absurd amount of work, new maps, masteries, mounts, E-specs, guild stuff, WvW, PvP, Raids, Strikes, Visions and the list goes on? I suppose they should stop doing those as well since its an absurd level of work? I mean sure why not if it means we can get "Quality content." The arguement goes both ways friend.

    Yes but those things are expected and you could probably consider the normal amount of work for this game and has been for years.
    Adding new classes would be like adding another permanent work volume on top of all the current expectations.

    Balancing 9 classes and 18 Elite specs is already difficult and painful enough.. with the next expansion that's potentially another 9 elite specs thrown in on top..
    Adding 3 whole new proffessions with 6-9 elite specs on top of that would be absurdly foolish and needlessly pointless.. I wouldn't be surprised if some classes and specs got straight up written off with that kind of workload demand.
    Some would claim that already happens with the current list of classes and specs.

    There's good reason why some content gets ignored for a while and why so many masteries end up as irrelevant.
    Hell people are always complaining about this class or that class in one game mode or another, just because perfecting balancing is impossible as you said doesn't mean you should intentionally make it a total clusterkitten just for the sake of adding something new.
    That's very short term gains for monumental long term problems, it's just not worth it.

    This is more or less the reason why Gw2's duel profession system was scrapped in the first place, not to mention why so many Gw1 skills got axed.
    As much as I've love more skills and duel professions it would totally break the game.. same as new classes would at this point.
    Elite Specs are the best solution to this problem even if they also contribute to it.

    I actually think they could Axe the E-specs together, and compromise by making three new classes with two E-specs each. This means that sure our current roster would get nothing new but there are TONS of people I've spoken too who don't want E-specs at all.. (Insane I know)

    That might appease some people but I'd think it would disappoint more overall.

    If they added new classes and give nothing to old ones many might feel cheated by it, probably more so than just not having new specs.
    If the new professions came with expansions too there would be no end of pay to win claims from those who only play the pvp side and don't care for buying new content.
    Specially if the new professions and their specs are just poorly balanced.

    Pretty sure a similar thing happened when the first batch of Elite specs came out as well.
    The last thing a lot of people want to do with new content too is roll a whole new character, learn how to use it and and rush to the new stuff, most want to take their favourites and just jump straight on and play.
    Providing they came with an expansion which considering the work load required I'd assume would be the only way to do it.

    So why not just not do any of it? Just leave classes as they are. No pay to win then yea? People will kitten no matter what they do. Might as well go big or go home at this point.. The community is upset no matter WHAT they do, or HOW they do it.

    Well as Kodama said they sell expansions for one.

    But like I said adding new specs each expansion complicates things.. adding new professions turns said complications into a huge clusterkitten instead.
    Not worth it, specially if it flat out kills competitive modes which are always a mess after new specs come along.. dread to think what 3 new professions and 9 specs would do to it xD

    Simple fix is that the NEW proffesion (No need to make three in one expansion, save two for the future ya know?) They don't receive E-specs this expansion due to the fact that they will have the current mantra/mechanics in their core kit. Meaning their core kit would already be on a kind of E-spec sort of phase; This means that one new class and the E-specs that came for other classes would still keep everyone happy.. Those who want something truly new, and hell maybe even new players that typically come for new classes would be appeased..

    That just wouldn't work.. having new classes as a base which can compare to old ones with elite specs would be absurdly OP.
    Either they would have massive powercreap on old classes or as a base they would have more base skills and trait lines to compensate which would cause even more issues down the road when they do get elite specs.
    This is the whole reason why Especs were limited to 1 per character and why you can't be a Reaper Scourge at the same time.. these new classes would essentially be that very thing if they were balanced this way, just lacking the mechanical changes of an Espec.

    Anet has already said in the past it doesnt want Especs to replace or straight up enhance core kits but rather offer a different way to play a class.
    If they did bring in new classes it would have to be in line with this model with the same restrictions.. new class plus specs and it's just not worth doing for so many reasons.

    Ill be honest if every other freak'n game on the market can do it, and manage to make it work than A-net has no excuse outside of willpower and ability/creativity. And I know that the community has no faith in them to do anything right it seems like, hell even I don't believe in them as much as I used too. But I think if they wanted too they could do this and make it work; People said we would never see mounts and look what appeared magically one day. Races, classes hell all the stuff they've ever said they wouldn't do and all the things they say in general mean next to nothing. They change their mind all the time, so again if it became something they wanted to do for whatever reason im pretty sure that they would do it~ and not give a dang what we think or want. (They never have before, why start now.)

    Other games are not like Gw2 though, lord knows so many of them have balance issues because they added new classes etc.
    Early on Anet scrapped the duel profession system as I said and restricted Racial impact to largely cosmetic purposes.. hence racial skills being more of a gimmick than actually useful.
    This was done to avoid obvious balance problems that were not worth the headache.
    As others said too, Revenant was only added later on with it's first elite spec to round out the 9 classes and the lacking 3rd heavy armour class.
    Had there been a 3rd one from launch they never would have made the Revenant.. or at least they never would have given players the ability to play as one.

    People said they'd never do mounts and if you recall there was a lot of uncertainty when they were announced.. then when we saw them and how they were done we realized how unique and different they were to how any other generic MMO does them and that sold a lot of people on them, myself included.
    When mounts did finally come into the game, despite upgrades to core Tyria maps they absolutely broke the game allowing them in core Tyria.
    Finding ways to break out of maps and skip content like Jumping puzzles is extremely easy to do with mounts even now, but this is ultimately harmless and only effects your personal experience if you choose to use them this way.
    Gliding if you remember was originally locked out of core Tyria for more or less the same reason.. and even back then these were valid concerns.

    Ultimately what mounts and gliding didn't do though was drastically complicate balance between classes.
    This is mainly because they do not have combat utility outside of a single enter skill, plus the fact their uses are limited in competitive modes like WvW.
    That still doesn't stop people complaining about Warclaw being the biggest mistake Anet ever made though.. and to be fair, despite favouring the Warclaw there are some valid arguments against it.

    I personally just want a shapeshifting werebeast, or someone who becomes a big monster and can switch between stages of them-self. Yea like the druid from diablo/WoW but I want that because its a fantasy I enjoy. I wanted the norn to be that as a race and simply whenever they enter combat they transform into this werebeast that just lays into people. But they never let it happen, and honestly its a fantasy Id love to see in guild wars 2's engine and Id love to see racial classes/specs emerge that are entirely dependent on your race that take our racial skills and amp them/make passives around them so we can play that kind of fantasy. But the community again poo poos on anything thats not the status quo.

    You can argue for more use in PvE racial skills, I honestly would support that as it's something I too would like but just because they are gimmick skills doesn't mean you can't use them or make builds that do.
    I'd actually prefer racial skills to become F6-9 skills which would only be usable in open world PvE, not fractals, raids, strikes or any kind of content like that just the general PvE.
    But im not against PvE exclusive racial traitlines that enhance some elements of race.. that would be a fun thing to have and being forced to sacrifice a profession traitline to use it is something that would be a fair trade off.
    That said I have a Norn Warewolf build myself which isn't finished yet but im planning to run through the whole PvE game with it eventually just for fun.
    So you can play a shapeshifter if you want, you just can't be a shapeshifting monster that can obliterate all in it's path with ease.

    One thing to keep in mind in this, should we decide to continue debating back and forth is that this is an entire new team just about. So With it being a different team outside of a few outliers anything is possible; I feel like racial skills being a gimmick was a mistake as it should be viable to run them. Norn should just passively shapeshift as right now all they have is tattoos, tattoos that are almost always covered up unless you run some of the less then stellar Vanilla armor or their racial armor. They lack true unique depth when compared to their fellow races and our lore has been drug through the mud; They treat us like clowns. Meanwhile charr have a unique model, and are the focus and have been a major player in every major development in the lore in this game.

    Id like the really stress that I am biased to norn, I don't care about the other races and due to A-nets choice in development there is nothing outside of the achievement points pushing me to the others. ( I made one, ran through to the acheivo and then deleted them..) So for someone like me Its all norn, and I personally would like a new race more than a new class... but since no one wants a new race I decided to pitch a class~ To see if it would be different and to me it seems that honestly the community just doesn't want anything new. We even have people screaming they don't want the expansion/E-specs..... so Honestly If I were a dev looking for ideas or even just trying to gauge what my community wanted.... I wouldn't look on the forums.

    So this conversation is probably wasted energy~

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'd like a new class for sure. But what would it do?

    Monk would be cool. Ritualist would be cooler. Personally I don't agree with the idea of "we need to have an even number of light, medium and heavy classes". I mean, why? Does it really matter if people are having fun?

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 17, 2020

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Not a good idea, new class would be an absurd amount of work.

    Not only would you need a new class but it would have to come with 2 elite specs to make it "fair"
    Add to that it would imbalance the armour tiers.. adding a new light would make people want a new medium and heavy too so they wouldn't be able to add just 1 new class they'd need to add 3 and each of them would need 2 specs each too meaning to make adding new classes fair we'd need 3 new professions with 6 new elite specs, and then there's the balancing problem..

    Just adding 9 new elite specs per expansion is already a headache.. adding 3 new professions now would be a foolish thing to do and likely do far more harm than good.

    Everything is an absurd amount of work, new maps, masteries, mounts, E-specs, guild stuff, WvW, PvP, Raids, Strikes, Visions and the list goes on? I suppose they should stop doing those as well since its an absurd level of work? I mean sure why not if it means we can get "Quality content." The arguement goes both ways friend.

    Yes but those things are expected and you could probably consider the normal amount of work for this game and has been for years.
    Adding new classes would be like adding another permanent work volume on top of all the current expectations.

    Balancing 9 classes and 18 Elite specs is already difficult and painful enough.. with the next expansion that's potentially another 9 elite specs thrown in on top..
    Adding 3 whole new proffessions with 6-9 elite specs on top of that would be absurdly foolish and needlessly pointless.. I wouldn't be surprised if some classes and specs got straight up written off with that kind of workload demand.
    Some would claim that already happens with the current list of classes and specs.

    There's good reason why some content gets ignored for a while and why so many masteries end up as irrelevant.
    Hell people are always complaining about this class or that class in one game mode or another, just because perfecting balancing is impossible as you said doesn't mean you should intentionally make it a total clusterkitten just for the sake of adding something new.
    That's very short term gains for monumental long term problems, it's just not worth it.

    This is more or less the reason why Gw2's duel profession system was scrapped in the first place, not to mention why so many Gw1 skills got axed.
    As much as I've love more skills and duel professions it would totally break the game.. same as new classes would at this point.
    Elite Specs are the best solution to this problem even if they also contribute to it.

    I actually think they could Axe the E-specs together, and compromise by making three new classes with two E-specs each. This means that sure our current roster would get nothing new but there are TONS of people I've spoken too who don't want E-specs at all.. (Insane I know)

    That might appease some people but I'd think it would disappoint more overall.

    If they added new classes and give nothing to old ones many might feel cheated by it, probably more so than just not having new specs.
    If the new professions came with expansions too there would be no end of pay to win claims from those who only play the pvp side and don't care for buying new content.
    Specially if the new professions and their specs are just poorly balanced.

    Pretty sure a similar thing happened when the first batch of Elite specs came out as well.
    The last thing a lot of people want to do with new content too is roll a whole new character, learn how to use it and and rush to the new stuff, most want to take their favourites and just jump straight on and play.
    Providing they came with an expansion which considering the work load required I'd assume would be the only way to do it.

    So why not just not do any of it? Just leave classes as they are. No pay to win then yea? People will kitten no matter what they do. Might as well go big or go home at this point.. The community is upset no matter WHAT they do, or HOW they do it.

    Well as Kodama said they sell expansions for one.

    But like I said adding new specs each expansion complicates things.. adding new professions turns said complications into a huge clusterkitten instead.
    Not worth it, specially if it flat out kills competitive modes which are always a mess after new specs come along.. dread to think what 3 new professions and 9 specs would do to it xD

    Simple fix is that the NEW proffesion (No need to make three in one expansion, save two for the future ya know?) They don't receive E-specs this expansion due to the fact that they will have the current mantra/mechanics in their core kit. Meaning their core kit would already be on a kind of E-spec sort of phase; This means that one new class and the E-specs that came for other classes would still keep everyone happy.. Those who want something truly new, and hell maybe even new players that typically come for new classes would be appeased..

    That just wouldn't work.. having new classes as a base which can compare to old ones with elite specs would be absurdly OP.
    Either they would have massive powercreap on old classes or as a base they would have more base skills and trait lines to compensate which would cause even more issues down the road when they do get elite specs.
    This is the whole reason why Especs were limited to 1 per character and why you can't be a Reaper Scourge at the same time.. these new classes would essentially be that very thing if they were balanced this way, just lacking the mechanical changes of an Espec.

    Anet has already said in the past it doesnt want Especs to replace or straight up enhance core kits but rather offer a different way to play a class.
    If they did bring in new classes it would have to be in line with this model with the same restrictions.. new class plus specs and it's just not worth doing for so many reasons.

    Ill be honest if every other freak'n game on the market can do it, and manage to make it work than A-net has no excuse outside of willpower and ability/creativity. And I know that the community has no faith in them to do anything right it seems like, hell even I don't believe in them as much as I used too. But I think if they wanted too they could do this and make it work; People said we would never see mounts and look what appeared magically one day. Races, classes hell all the stuff they've ever said they wouldn't do and all the things they say in general mean next to nothing. They change their mind all the time, so again if it became something they wanted to do for whatever reason im pretty sure that they would do it~ and not give a dang what we think or want. (They never have before, why start now.)

    Other games are not like Gw2 though, lord knows so many of them have balance issues because they added new classes etc.
    Early on Anet scrapped the duel profession system as I said and restricted Racial impact to largely cosmetic purposes.. hence racial skills being more of a gimmick than actually useful.
    This was done to avoid obvious balance problems that were not worth the headache.
    As others said too, Revenant was only added later on with it's first elite spec to round out the 9 classes and the lacking 3rd heavy armour class.
    Had there been a 3rd one from launch they never would have made the Revenant.. or at least they never would have given players the ability to play as one.

    People said they'd never do mounts and if you recall there was a lot of uncertainty when they were announced.. then when we saw them and how they were done we realized how unique and different they were to how any other generic MMO does them and that sold a lot of people on them, myself included.
    When mounts did finally come into the game, despite upgrades to core Tyria maps they absolutely broke the game allowing them in core Tyria.
    Finding ways to break out of maps and skip content like Jumping puzzles is extremely easy to do with mounts even now, but this is ultimately harmless and only effects your personal experience if you choose to use them this way.
    Gliding if you remember was originally locked out of core Tyria for more or less the same reason.. and even back then these were valid concerns.

    Ultimately what mounts and gliding didn't do though was drastically complicate balance between classes.
    This is mainly because they do not have combat utility outside of a single enter skill, plus the fact their uses are limited in competitive modes like WvW.
    That still doesn't stop people complaining about Warclaw being the biggest mistake Anet ever made though.. and to be fair, despite favouring the Warclaw there are some valid arguments against it.

    I personally just want a shapeshifting werebeast, or someone who becomes a big monster and can switch between stages of them-self. Yea like the druid from diablo/WoW but I want that because its a fantasy I enjoy. I wanted the norn to be that as a race and simply whenever they enter combat they transform into this werebeast that just lays into people. But they never let it happen, and honestly its a fantasy Id love to see in guild wars 2's engine and Id love to see racial classes/specs emerge that are entirely dependent on your race that take our racial skills and amp them/make passives around them so we can play that kind of fantasy. But the community again poo poos on anything thats not the status quo.

    You can argue for more use in PvE racial skills, I honestly would support that as it's something I too would like but just because they are gimmick skills doesn't mean you can't use them or make builds that do.
    I'd actually prefer racial skills to become F6-9 skills which would only be usable in open world PvE, not fractals, raids, strikes or any kind of content like that just the general PvE.
    But im not against PvE exclusive racial traitlines that enhance some elements of race.. that would be a fun thing to have and being forced to sacrifice a profession traitline to use it is something that would be a fair trade off.
    That said I have a Norn Warewolf build myself which isn't finished yet but im planning to run through the whole PvE game with it eventually just for fun.
    So you can play a shapeshifter if you want, you just can't be a shapeshifting monster that can obliterate all in it's path with ease.

    So this conversation is probably wasted energy~

    Ha it probbaly is but I enjoy talking about Gw2 with people, even in disagreements etc
    I don't get to much in real life so the forums is about the only place I do get to talk with others who love this game ^^

    One thing to keep in mind in this, should we decide to continue debating back and forth is that this is an entire new team just about. So With it being a different team outside of a few outliers anything is possible; I feel like racial skills being a gimmick was a mistake as it should be viable to run them. Norn should just passively shapeshift as right now all they have is tattoos, tattoos that are almost always covered up unless you run some of the less then stellar Vanilla armor or their racial armor. They lack true unique depth when compared to their fellow races and our lore has been drug through the mud; They treat us like clowns. Meanwhile charr have a unique model, and are the focus and have been a major player in every major development in the lore in this game.

    I'm with you on the Norn stuff, Norn have been generally more neglected than the other races, outside of Braham and Eir there hasn't really been much Norn stuff going on until Icebrood Saga, least on screen anyway.
    Braham had his whole Destiny's Edge 2,0 thing going on but all of that was offscreen more or less.
    Hopefully Icebrood Saga will give us a lot more Norn stuff before it ends although with upcoming content taking place in Woodland Cascades I don't know if it will..

    Id like the really stress that I am biased to norn, I don't care about the other races and due to A-nets choice in development there is nothing outside of the achievement points pushing me to the others. ( I made one, ran through to the acheivo and then deleted them..) So for someone like me Its all norn, and I personally would like a new race more than a new class... but since no one wants a new race I decided to pitch a class~

    It's fine to be biased for a Race, I am a long time Gw1 player myself so I have a bit of a Human bias due to many of my Gw2 Human characters having ancestral family ties to my Gw1 characters.

    I wouldn't say nobody wants new races, that has been a common topic on the forums for many years and still is.
    Lots of people still want to play as Tengu and Kodan, it's just very difficult at this point to add them in without breaking the story.
    They'd need a starting town and story to get them involved, possibly a starting zone map and even then there would be retcons for their current inactivity.
    Basically they can't just add new races and take over the Commander role without building up that backstory first, that's the problem.

    This is why it's easier to just make combat tonics for them instead and let people role play as them but even then there are limitations like not being able to mount or having customization options for armour etc..
    In all honesty I think the best solution for this is not to create new races.. but instead create special outfits for races that use existing player frames/skeletons (Kodan currently use Norn and Tengu use Charr)
    Have it so that selecting a Kodan or Tengu skeleton outfit would replace your normal race's naked appearance with a specialized new race one, Dye channels to customize fur, feathers etc as needed
    Then normal armour would fit on as it does with the base Norn and Charr models and since the game registers the race change as an outfit there shouldn't be any issues with mounts or novelties.
    This is still going to take a lot of work to do though but it would certainly be less work than making whole new playable races and trying to work it into the game without breaking it.

    To see if it would be different and to me it seems that honestly the community just doesn't want anything new. We even have people screaming they don't want the expansion/E-specs..... so Honestly If I were a dev looking for ideas or even just trying to gauge what my community wanted.... I wouldn't look on the forums.****

    There's always disagreements, I've seen people argue for many things over time some that go against the very foundations of this franchise such as Subscription fees (which would personally make me quit this game and never come back to the franchise)
    It's not that people don't want new things it's just that everyone wants the game to cater to them and what they want Gw2 to be.. hell some even want this game to end so we can start fresh with a GW3 lol
    Honestly there's nothing wrong with that, if anything it's very normal for any fanbase to feel that way.
    But it does lead to a lot of ideas that can sound good but are either too difficult to implement or just not worth it, or could just break parts of the game that many people care about, such as story continuity, a certain game mode or balance.
    It really comes down to pros and cons and i'm willing to bet that there are many popular ideas such as new races, classes, duel classing etc that the Devs have considered adding in the past and decided the cons just outweigh the pros too much to justify the workload they would demand.

    You are right though, sometimes they do change their minds about something like mounts.
    Maybe one day a dev might have a eureka moment and figure out a way they can add new races or professions and make them work without screwing up the balance or story continuity..
    It's a small chance and I wouldn't bet on it but it is a chance none the less.
    What I can say with confidence though is that if it's a popular idea/request on the forums then chances are the Devs are aware of it and have at least discussed it as a possible feature or addition to the game at some point in one of their many brainstorming sessions.. possibly even multiple times.
    With mounts specifically they really did reinvent them for Gw2 when the time was absolutely right to do so, so I'm definitely in the camp that it was absolutely worth the wait for them.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:
    I'd like a new class for sure. But what would it do?

    Monk would be cool. Ritualist would be cooler. Personally I don't agree with the idea of "we need to have an even number of light, medium and heavy classes". I mean, why? Does it really matter if people are having fun?

    The "what would it do" is a really good question. I personally feel like a new class doesn't really bring something to the table that would make the huge amount of work worth it. Back then with Revenant, they literally just started doing elite specs and everyone just had 1, so they just had to design the revenant with 1 elite spec in mind too.
    Now with the third expansion announced to come they would have to create this new class with 3 elite specs, which by itself is already alot of work.

    And I don't want to have another situation like back when they made HoT, with resources getting put so much into one aspect of the game that some of the new elite specs will suffer from it. Scrapper was made in a rush back then, this is obvious and no one can convince me otherwise. The team which should have worked on it put the effort into druid instead and completely neglected the design of the scrapper, then just threw something together last minute. Please, don't let us have another situation like this.

    And all the thematics which can get put into a new class (like monk or ritualist) can also easily get put into elite specs. The classes are diverse enough that we can find a fitting class for everything in my opinion. Monk can get put into the guardian class as an elite spec, ritualist can get put either into revenant or necromancer.

    About keeping the balance between the different armor classes: I would say it actually matters. Anet went out of their way to create the revenant as the third heavy armor class which we were lacking for years in the game. Also I think an imbalance between the different classes also has an effect on the game to consider, like the economy for example.

    If there are more classes from one armor type, then this means that the demand for their armor is higher and therefore we will have higher prices. We can already see this effect to some extend with weapons, there are weapons which are way more represented in classes than others and these weapons have higher prices. I think Anet should actually aim to make people of all classes to get their armor for at least kinda the same price. There already has been a major imbalance between these prices in the past because of the different material requirements to craft them and there have been changes to make them more equal.

    I think having 3 classes for each armor class has it's benefits and there is no need to overthrow this again. And all my need for new thematics gets covered by the elite specs, so for me there is no point in adding another class.

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think we dont need another class.
    New e-specs i agree on. But any design space that us left i would rather see in e-specs than a class.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    I'd like a new class for sure. But what would it do?

    Monk would be cool. Ritualist would be cooler. Personally I don't agree with the idea of "we need to have an even number of light, medium and heavy classes". I mean, why? Does it really matter if people are having fun?

    The "what would it do" is a really good question. I personally feel like a new class doesn't really bring something to the table that would make the huge amount of work worth it. Back then with Revenant, they literally just started doing elite specs and everyone just had 1, so they just had to design the revenant with 1 elite spec in mind too.
    Now with the third expansion announced to come they would have to create this new class with 3 elite specs, which by itself is already alot of work.

    And I don't want to have another situation like back when they made HoT, with resources getting put so much into one aspect of the game that some of the new elite specs will suffer from it. Scrapper was made in a rush back then, this is obvious and no one can convince me otherwise. The team which should have worked on it put the effort into druid instead and completely neglected the design of the scrapper, then just threw something together last minute. Please, don't let us have another situation like this.

    And all the thematics which can get put into a new class (like monk or ritualist) can also easily get put into elite specs. The classes are diverse enough that we can find a fitting class for everything in my opinion. Monk can get put into the guardian class as an elite spec, ritualist can get put either into revenant or necromancer.

    About keeping the balance between the different armor classes: I would say it actually matters. Anet went out of their way to create the revenant as the third heavy armor class which we were lacking for years in the game. Also I think an imbalance between the different classes also has an effect on the game to consider, like the economy for example.

    If there are more classes from one armor type, then this means that the demand for their armor is higher and therefore we will have higher prices. We can already see this effect to some extend with weapons, there are weapons which are way more represented in classes than others and these weapons have higher prices. I think Anet should actually aim to make people of all classes to get their armor for at least kinda the same price. There already has been a major imbalance between these prices in the past because of the different material requirements to craft them and there have been changes to make them more equal.

    I think having 3 classes for each armor class has it's benefits and there is no need to overthrow this again. And all my need for new thematics gets covered by the elite specs, so for me there is no point in adding another class.

    I think that if Guild wars 2 survives long enough we will hit a critical mass of Elite specs and Arena net will need to either expand the classes in new ways or provide us with a new class. This is just my perspective on that and feel free to disagree or not. But I do strongly believe that the critical mass for elite specs is a total of 5. Although I believe some classes could easily have more than 5 such as necromancer and Revenant specifically, other's such as Elementalist struggle greatly in terms of design space for elite specs after a certain point. We're a few years off of that critical mass point. If Arena net is consistent with their elite spec release, making a new set every 2-3 years, although I'd prefer it to be 2 years, then we could see us hitting the critical mass point in about 2025. Which is honestly not too shabby really.

    So going on this, What are some other ways Arena net could expand the game without adding elite specs? Actually there is a lot they could do! And I'll be more than happy to list a few for you guys since Speculation is one of my favorite hobbies for games I play.

    New Core Specializations

    I'm starting with this one since it is the least likely in my opinion but It is an option that Arena net could take. There is plenty of design space that could be taken up with this which could expand on some ideas. Lava magic or Ice magic for elementalist could be their own specializations they could take which could work well for them which could offer much different sets of traits compared to their similar counterparts in Fire and water respectively. This isn't my favorite solution however so this one is probably a no for me. I wouldn't be opposed to it, but I'm not in pushing it.

    New Core Skills

    This I think is extremely likely to occur once the Elite specialization critical mass happens. There is a lot of design space that is available in each profession's skills that they could take and we are missing some skills for each of the core specs. Revenant could also get new legends to channel for the core spec too and this wouldn't be an issue for their design either. Why does new legends always have to be tied to an elite spec? I don't think it does so this could open up some interesting combinations.

    New Core traits

    This one I would actually like a lot and I would push for this pretty hard once we hit the critical mass especially. This one also has much lower resource requirement to achieve for the devs and there is a lot of design space each of the specializations could fill that they currently are not. This could also open up the opportunity for more specialist type players. So instead of just having 1 trait for each weapon you could theoretically have multiple across multiple specializations which could change how the weapon functions. Much like how Lingering Curse changed Feast of Corruption into Devouring Darkness only my hope would be that Arena net would instead of all these traits being strict upgrades be Side grade changes. So the new version instead of being strictly better is more situationally better for your respective build. So for example maybe the Guardian gains a trait that changes Binding Blade from throwing aoe that tethers foes around you to pull them maybe it changes to a cone attack with 600 range that grabs foes in front of you instantly kinda like the Butcher chain skill from Diablo III and sets them on fire or something. Its not strictly better, its in some cases much worse, but it gives you some really interesting options to play with.

    Racial Specializations

    BEFORE YOU PROTEST THIS ONE PLEASE READ IT!
    Now this is an option I'd be quite excited about but here's how the idea works. You would slot the Racial Specialization in your Elite spec slot and gain traits associated with that race as well as access to racial skills. These skills and traits would be comparable your normal skills and traits instead of actually being just useless as they are now in most cases. HOWEVER! These racial specializations would not be locked by race. Now let me explain. If you start the game as a Norn for example you will have the norn Specialization unlocked automatically but if you wanted to use the charr specialization you would need to head to the black Citadel and take on a "Quest chain" or achievement chain or what ever to unlock access to it, making it so you could use those skills and traits.
    The primary benefit of using these skills on your appropriate race would purely be cosmetic. So if you gain Bear Totem for example, mechanically it would be the exact same for you as it would be for your asura counterpart physically the players would only transform into the bear IF they are a norn. These Specializations would also be locked out of PvP and MAYBE WvW but I'd actually prefer them to be accessible in WvW.
    Other aspects of these Specializations is their names wouldn't be "Human specialization" or "Asura Specialization" but rather "Divinity's Bastion", "Rata Sum Genius", "Warden of the Grove", "Black Citadel Militia", "Legend of Hoelbrak" or something along those lines. The reason I'd have specializations around these ideas as opposed to being named after the race is because I'd also include Specializations for other locations you could unlock such as Amnoon, Blood Legion Homeland, Cantha, Rata Novas and so on. I still expect people to not be okay with this, which is fine, but I like the idea of roleplay it provides as well as being able to feel like the race i'm playing rather than always feeling like generic Character who's no different. Maybe it doesn't change that in some people's eyes, but it would for me. The Racial skills too would have skill types as well, so Asura golems would be minions so they would combo with traits. Same with Charzooka being a kit.

    These are some ideas that Arena net could go with in the future. I think the best one of these is absolutely the new core traits. But hey, there not as limited as we sometimes think. A new class could happen when they hit the critical mass, so I do still think that's a possibility.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    I'd like a new class for sure. But what would it do?

    Monk would be cool. Ritualist would be cooler. Personally I don't agree with the idea of "we need to have an even number of light, medium and heavy classes". I mean, why? Does it really matter if people are having fun?

    The "what would it do" is a really good question. I personally feel like a new class doesn't really bring something to the table that would make the huge amount of work worth it. Back then with Revenant, they literally just started doing elite specs and everyone just had 1, so they just had to design the revenant with 1 elite spec in mind too.
    Now with the third expansion announced to come they would have to create this new class with 3 elite specs, which by itself is already alot of work.

    And I don't want to have another situation like back when they made HoT, with resources getting put so much into one aspect of the game that some of the new elite specs will suffer from it. Scrapper was made in a rush back then, this is obvious and no one can convince me otherwise. The team which should have worked on it put the effort into druid instead and completely neglected the design of the scrapper, then just threw something together last minute. Please, don't let us have another situation like this.

    And all the thematics which can get put into a new class (like monk or ritualist) can also easily get put into elite specs. The classes are diverse enough that we can find a fitting class for everything in my opinion. Monk can get put into the guardian class as an elite spec, ritualist can get put either into revenant or necromancer.

    About keeping the balance between the different armor classes: I would say it actually matters. Anet went out of their way to create the revenant as the third heavy armor class which we were lacking for years in the game. Also I think an imbalance between the different classes also has an effect on the game to consider, like the economy for example.

    If there are more classes from one armor type, then this means that the demand for their armor is higher and therefore we will have higher prices. We can already see this effect to some extend with weapons, there are weapons which are way more represented in classes than others and these weapons have higher prices. I think Anet should actually aim to make people of all classes to get their armor for at least kinda the same price. There already has been a major imbalance between these prices in the past because of the different material requirements to craft them and there have been changes to make them more equal.

    I think having 3 classes for each armor class has it's benefits and there is no need to overthrow this again. And all my need for new thematics gets covered by the elite specs, so for me there is no point in adding another class.

    I think that if Guild wars 2 survives long enough we will hit a critical mass of Elite specs and Arena net will need to either expand the classes in new ways or provide us with a new class. This is just my perspective on that and feel free to disagree or not. But I do strongly believe that the critical mass for elite specs is a total of 5. Although I believe some classes could easily have more than 5 such as necromancer and Revenant specifically, other's such as Elementalist struggle greatly in terms of design space for elite specs after a certain point. We're a few years off of that critical mass point. If Arena net is consistent with their elite spec release, making a new set every 2-3 years, although I'd prefer it to be 2 years, then we could see us hitting the critical mass point in about 2025. Which is honestly not too shabby really.

    So going on this, What are some other ways Arena net could expand the game without adding elite specs? Actually there is a lot they could do! And I'll be more than happy to list a few for you guys since Speculation is one of my favorite hobbies for games I play.

    New Core Specializations

    I'm starting with this one since it is the least likely in my opinion but It is an option that Arena net could take. There is plenty of design space that could be taken up with this which could expand on some ideas. Lava magic or Ice magic for elementalist could be their own specializations they could take which could work well for them which could offer much different sets of traits compared to their similar counterparts in Fire and water respectively. This isn't my favorite solution however so this one is probably a no for me. I wouldn't be opposed to it, but I'm not in pushing it.

    New Core Skills

    This I think is extremely likely to occur once the Elite specialization critical mass happens. There is a lot of design space that is available in each profession's skills that they could take and we are missing some skills for each of the core specs. Revenant could also get new legends to channel for the core spec too and this wouldn't be an issue for their design either. Why does new legends always have to be tied to an elite spec? I don't think it does so this could open up some interesting combinations.

    New Core traits

    This one I would actually like a lot and I would push for this pretty hard once we hit the critical mass especially. This one also has much lower resource requirement to achieve for the devs and there is a lot of design space each of the specializations could fill that they currently are not. This could also open up the opportunity for more specialist type players. So instead of just having 1 trait for each weapon you could theoretically have multiple across multiple specializations which could change how the weapon functions. Much like how Lingering Curse changed Feast of Corruption into Devouring Darkness only my hope would be that Arena net would instead of all these traits being strict upgrades be Side grade changes. So the new version instead of being strictly better is more situationally better for your respective build. So for example maybe the Guardian gains a trait that changes Binding Blade from throwing aoe that tethers foes around you to pull them maybe it changes to a cone attack with 600 range that grabs foes in front of you instantly kinda like the Butcher chain skill from Diablo III and sets them on fire or something. Its not strictly better, its in some cases much worse, but it gives you some really interesting options to play with.

    Racial Specializations

    BEFORE YOU PROTEST THIS ONE PLEASE READ IT!
    Now this is an option I'd be quite excited about but here's how the idea works. You would slot the Racial Specialization in your Elite spec slot and gain traits associated with that race as well as access to racial skills. These skills and traits would be comparable your normal skills and traits instead of actually being just useless as they are now in most cases. HOWEVER! These racial specializations would not be locked by race. Now let me explain. If you start the game as a Norn for example you will have the norn Specialization unlocked automatically but if you wanted to use the charr specialization you would need to head to the black Citadel and take on a "Quest chain" or achievement chain or what ever to unlock access to it, making it so you could use those skills and traits.
    The primary benefit of using these skills on your appropriate race would purely be cosmetic. So if you gain Bear Totem for example, mechanically it would be the exact same for you as it would be for your asura counterpart physically the players would only transform into the bear IF they are a norn. These Specializations would also be locked out of PvP and MAYBE WvW but I'd actually prefer them to be accessible in WvW.
    Other aspects of these Specializations is their names wouldn't be "Human specialization" or "Asura Specialization" but rather "Divinity's Bastion", "Rata Sum Genius", "Warden of the Grove", "Black Citadel Militia", "Legend of Hoelbrak" or something along those lines. The reason I'd have specializations around these ideas as opposed to being named after the race is because I'd also include Specializations for other locations you could unlock such as Amnoon, Blood Legion Homeland, Cantha, Rata Novas and so on. I still expect people to not be okay with this, which is fine, but I like the idea of roleplay it provides as well as being able to feel like the race i'm playing rather than always feeling like generic Character who's no different. Maybe it doesn't change that in some people's eyes, but it would for me. The Racial skills too would have skill types as well, so Asura golems would be minions so they would combo with traits. Same with Charzooka being a kit.

    These are some ideas that Arena net could go with in the future. I think the best one of these is absolutely the new core traits. But hey, there not as limited as we sometimes think. A new class could happen when they hit the critical mass, so I do still think that's a possibility.

    Throwing another specialization idea your way.

    Order specializations based on the Vigil, Priory and Order of Whispers.
    They'd take up your elite spec slot but grant you new skills and mechanics related to what order you choose.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    I'd like a new class for sure. But what would it do?

    Monk would be cool. Ritualist would be cooler. Personally I don't agree with the idea of "we need to have an even number of light, medium and heavy classes". I mean, why? Does it really matter if people are having fun?

    The "what would it do" is a really good question. I personally feel like a new class doesn't really bring something to the table that would make the huge amount of work worth it. Back then with Revenant, they literally just started doing elite specs and everyone just had 1, so they just had to design the revenant with 1 elite spec in mind too.
    Now with the third expansion announced to come they would have to create this new class with 3 elite specs, which by itself is already alot of work.

    And I don't want to have another situation like back when they made HoT, with resources getting put so much into one aspect of the game that some of the new elite specs will suffer from it. Scrapper was made in a rush back then, this is obvious and no one can convince me otherwise. The team which should have worked on it put the effort into druid instead and completely neglected the design of the scrapper, then just threw something together last minute. Please, don't let us have another situation like this.

    And all the thematics which can get put into a new class (like monk or ritualist) can also easily get put into elite specs. The classes are diverse enough that we can find a fitting class for everything in my opinion. Monk can get put into the guardian class as an elite spec, ritualist can get put either into revenant or necromancer.

    About keeping the balance between the different armor classes: I would say it actually matters. Anet went out of their way to create the revenant as the third heavy armor class which we were lacking for years in the game. Also I think an imbalance between the different classes also has an effect on the game to consider, like the economy for example.

    If there are more classes from one armor type, then this means that the demand for their armor is higher and therefore we will have higher prices. We can already see this effect to some extend with weapons, there are weapons which are way more represented in classes than others and these weapons have higher prices. I think Anet should actually aim to make people of all classes to get their armor for at least kinda the same price. There already has been a major imbalance between these prices in the past because of the different material requirements to craft them and there have been changes to make them more equal.

    I think having 3 classes for each armor class has it's benefits and there is no need to overthrow this again. And all my need for new thematics gets covered by the elite specs, so for me there is no point in adding another class.

    I think that if Guild wars 2 survives long enough we will hit a critical mass of Elite specs and Arena net will need to either expand the classes in new ways or provide us with a new class. This is just my perspective on that and feel free to disagree or not. But I do strongly believe that the critical mass for elite specs is a total of 5. Although I believe some classes could easily have more than 5 such as necromancer and Revenant specifically, other's such as Elementalist struggle greatly in terms of design space for elite specs after a certain point. We're a few years off of that critical mass point. If Arena net is consistent with their elite spec release, making a new set every 2-3 years, although I'd prefer it to be 2 years, then we could see us hitting the critical mass point in about 2025. Which is honestly not too shabby really.

    So going on this, What are some other ways Arena net could expand the game without adding elite specs? Actually there is a lot they could do! And I'll be more than happy to list a few for you guys since Speculation is one of my favorite hobbies for games I play.

    New Core Specializations

    I'm starting with this one since it is the least likely in my opinion but It is an option that Arena net could take. There is plenty of design space that could be taken up with this which could expand on some ideas. Lava magic or Ice magic for elementalist could be their own specializations they could take which could work well for them which could offer much different sets of traits compared to their similar counterparts in Fire and water respectively. This isn't my favorite solution however so this one is probably a no for me. I wouldn't be opposed to it, but I'm not in pushing it.

    New Core Skills

    This I think is extremely likely to occur once the Elite specialization critical mass happens. There is a lot of design space that is available in each profession's skills that they could take and we are missing some skills for each of the core specs. Revenant could also get new legends to channel for the core spec too and this wouldn't be an issue for their design either. Why does new legends always have to be tied to an elite spec? I don't think it does so this could open up some interesting combinations.

    New Core traits

    This one I would actually like a lot and I would push for this pretty hard once we hit the critical mass especially. This one also has much lower resource requirement to achieve for the devs and there is a lot of design space each of the specializations could fill that they currently are not. This could also open up the opportunity for more specialist type players. So instead of just having 1 trait for each weapon you could theoretically have multiple across multiple specializations which could change how the weapon functions. Much like how Lingering Curse changed Feast of Corruption into Devouring Darkness only my hope would be that Arena net would instead of all these traits being strict upgrades be Side grade changes. So the new version instead of being strictly better is more situationally better for your respective build. So for example maybe the Guardian gains a trait that changes Binding Blade from throwing aoe that tethers foes around you to pull them maybe it changes to a cone attack with 600 range that grabs foes in front of you instantly kinda like the Butcher chain skill from Diablo III and sets them on fire or something. Its not strictly better, its in some cases much worse, but it gives you some really interesting options to play with.

    Racial Specializations

    BEFORE YOU PROTEST THIS ONE PLEASE READ IT!
    Now this is an option I'd be quite excited about but here's how the idea works. You would slot the Racial Specialization in your Elite spec slot and gain traits associated with that race as well as access to racial skills. These skills and traits would be comparable your normal skills and traits instead of actually being just useless as they are now in most cases. HOWEVER! These racial specializations would not be locked by race. Now let me explain. If you start the game as a Norn for example you will have the norn Specialization unlocked automatically but if you wanted to use the charr specialization you would need to head to the black Citadel and take on a "Quest chain" or achievement chain or what ever to unlock access to it, making it so you could use those skills and traits.
    The primary benefit of using these skills on your appropriate race would purely be cosmetic. So if you gain Bear Totem for example, mechanically it would be the exact same for you as it would be for your asura counterpart physically the players would only transform into the bear IF they are a norn. These Specializations would also be locked out of PvP and MAYBE WvW but I'd actually prefer them to be accessible in WvW.
    Other aspects of these Specializations is their names wouldn't be "Human specialization" or "Asura Specialization" but rather "Divinity's Bastion", "Rata Sum Genius", "Warden of the Grove", "Black Citadel Militia", "Legend of Hoelbrak" or something along those lines. The reason I'd have specializations around these ideas as opposed to being named after the race is because I'd also include Specializations for other locations you could unlock such as Amnoon, Blood Legion Homeland, Cantha, Rata Novas and so on. I still expect people to not be okay with this, which is fine, but I like the idea of roleplay it provides as well as being able to feel like the race i'm playing rather than always feeling like generic Character who's no different. Maybe it doesn't change that in some people's eyes, but it would for me. The Racial skills too would have skill types as well, so Asura golems would be minions so they would combo with traits. Same with Charzooka being a kit.

    These are some ideas that Arena net could go with in the future. I think the best one of these is absolutely the new core traits. But hey, there not as limited as we sometimes think. A new class could happen when they hit the critical mass, so I do still think that's a possibility.

    Throwing another specialization idea your way.

    Order specializations based on the Vigil, Priory and Order of Whispers.
    They'd take up your elite spec slot but grant you new skills and mechanics related to what order you choose.

    As long as you could unlock all of them one one character that would be fun.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    I'd like a new class for sure. But what would it do?

    Monk would be cool. Ritualist would be cooler. Personally I don't agree with the idea of "we need to have an even number of light, medium and heavy classes". I mean, why? Does it really matter if people are having fun?

    The "what would it do" is a really good question. I personally feel like a new class doesn't really bring something to the table that would make the huge amount of work worth it. Back then with Revenant, they literally just started doing elite specs and everyone just had 1, so they just had to design the revenant with 1 elite spec in mind too.
    Now with the third expansion announced to come they would have to create this new class with 3 elite specs, which by itself is already alot of work.

    And I don't want to have another situation like back when they made HoT, with resources getting put so much into one aspect of the game that some of the new elite specs will suffer from it. Scrapper was made in a rush back then, this is obvious and no one can convince me otherwise. The team which should have worked on it put the effort into druid instead and completely neglected the design of the scrapper, then just threw something together last minute. Please, don't let us have another situation like this.

    And all the thematics which can get put into a new class (like monk or ritualist) can also easily get put into elite specs. The classes are diverse enough that we can find a fitting class for everything in my opinion. Monk can get put into the guardian class as an elite spec, ritualist can get put either into revenant or necromancer.

    About keeping the balance between the different armor classes: I would say it actually matters. Anet went out of their way to create the revenant as the third heavy armor class which we were lacking for years in the game. Also I think an imbalance between the different classes also has an effect on the game to consider, like the economy for example.

    If there are more classes from one armor type, then this means that the demand for their armor is higher and therefore we will have higher prices. We can already see this effect to some extend with weapons, there are weapons which are way more represented in classes than others and these weapons have higher prices. I think Anet should actually aim to make people of all classes to get their armor for at least kinda the same price. There already has been a major imbalance between these prices in the past because of the different material requirements to craft them and there have been changes to make them more equal.

    I think having 3 classes for each armor class has it's benefits and there is no need to overthrow this again. And all my need for new thematics gets covered by the elite specs, so for me there is no point in adding another class.

    I think that if Guild wars 2 survives long enough we will hit a critical mass of Elite specs and Arena net will need to either expand the classes in new ways or provide us with a new class. This is just my perspective on that and feel free to disagree or not. But I do strongly believe that the critical mass for elite specs is a total of 5. Although I believe some classes could easily have more than 5 such as necromancer and Revenant specifically, other's such as Elementalist struggle greatly in terms of design space for elite specs after a certain point. We're a few years off of that critical mass point. If Arena net is consistent with their elite spec release, making a new set every 2-3 years, although I'd prefer it to be 2 years, then we could see us hitting the critical mass point in about 2025. Which is honestly not too shabby really.

    So going on this, What are some other ways Arena net could expand the game without adding elite specs? Actually there is a lot they could do! And I'll be more than happy to list a few for you guys since Speculation is one of my favorite hobbies for games I play.

    New Core Specializations

    I'm starting with this one since it is the least likely in my opinion but It is an option that Arena net could take. There is plenty of design space that could be taken up with this which could expand on some ideas. Lava magic or Ice magic for elementalist could be their own specializations they could take which could work well for them which could offer much different sets of traits compared to their similar counterparts in Fire and water respectively. This isn't my favorite solution however so this one is probably a no for me. I wouldn't be opposed to it, but I'm not in pushing it.

    New Core Skills

    This I think is extremely likely to occur once the Elite specialization critical mass happens. There is a lot of design space that is available in each profession's skills that they could take and we are missing some skills for each of the core specs. Revenant could also get new legends to channel for the core spec too and this wouldn't be an issue for their design either. Why does new legends always have to be tied to an elite spec? I don't think it does so this could open up some interesting combinations.

    New Core traits

    This one I would actually like a lot and I would push for this pretty hard once we hit the critical mass especially. This one also has much lower resource requirement to achieve for the devs and there is a lot of design space each of the specializations could fill that they currently are not. This could also open up the opportunity for more specialist type players. So instead of just having 1 trait for each weapon you could theoretically have multiple across multiple specializations which could change how the weapon functions. Much like how Lingering Curse changed Feast of Corruption into Devouring Darkness only my hope would be that Arena net would instead of all these traits being strict upgrades be Side grade changes. So the new version instead of being strictly better is more situationally better for your respective build. So for example maybe the Guardian gains a trait that changes Binding Blade from throwing aoe that tethers foes around you to pull them maybe it changes to a cone attack with 600 range that grabs foes in front of you instantly kinda like the Butcher chain skill from Diablo III and sets them on fire or something. Its not strictly better, its in some cases much worse, but it gives you some really interesting options to play with.

    Racial Specializations

    BEFORE YOU PROTEST THIS ONE PLEASE READ IT!
    Now this is an option I'd be quite excited about but here's how the idea works. You would slot the Racial Specialization in your Elite spec slot and gain traits associated with that race as well as access to racial skills. These skills and traits would be comparable your normal skills and traits instead of actually being just useless as they are now in most cases. HOWEVER! These racial specializations would not be locked by race. Now let me explain. If you start the game as a Norn for example you will have the norn Specialization unlocked automatically but if you wanted to use the charr specialization you would need to head to the black Citadel and take on a "Quest chain" or achievement chain or what ever to unlock access to it, making it so you could use those skills and traits.
    The primary benefit of using these skills on your appropriate race would purely be cosmetic. So if you gain Bear Totem for example, mechanically it would be the exact same for you as it would be for your asura counterpart physically the players would only transform into the bear IF they are a norn. These Specializations would also be locked out of PvP and MAYBE WvW but I'd actually prefer them to be accessible in WvW.
    Other aspects of these Specializations is their names wouldn't be "Human specialization" or "Asura Specialization" but rather "Divinity's Bastion", "Rata Sum Genius", "Warden of the Grove", "Black Citadel Militia", "Legend of Hoelbrak" or something along those lines. The reason I'd have specializations around these ideas as opposed to being named after the race is because I'd also include Specializations for other locations you could unlock such as Amnoon, Blood Legion Homeland, Cantha, Rata Novas and so on. I still expect people to not be okay with this, which is fine, but I like the idea of roleplay it provides as well as being able to feel like the race i'm playing rather than always feeling like generic Character who's no different. Maybe it doesn't change that in some people's eyes, but it would for me. The Racial skills too would have skill types as well, so Asura golems would be minions so they would combo with traits. Same with Charzooka being a kit.

    These are some ideas that Arena net could go with in the future. I think the best one of these is absolutely the new core traits. But hey, there not as limited as we sometimes think. A new class could happen when they hit the critical mass, so I do still think that's a possibility.

    Throwing another specialization idea your way.

    Order specializations based on the Vigil, Priory and Order of Whispers.
    They'd take up your elite spec slot but grant you new skills and mechanics related to what order you choose.

    As long as you could unlock all of them one one character that would be fun.

    Sure ^^
    You'd get your first one when you join your order but later on you could unlock the other two once you get into the Pact storyline and become second in command, maybe through NPC's at fort Trinity or something :)

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think I'm down for new "general" specs as well.

    Example, yu could have a Pale Reaver Spec which focuses on Rifle combat, allowing a Profession that doesn't naturally have Rifle to also use it, but it uses a preset Rifle skillset instead of being unique to profession.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 18, 2020

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    [...]

    I don't think there's much of what a new class would bring that new especs couldn't cover, so any interesting idea that they might have, I'd rather see as an espec for current class/es.


    @Lily.1935 said:

    Racial Specializations

    BEFORE YOU PROTEST THIS ONE PLEASE READ IT!
    Now this is an option I'd be quite excited about but here's how the idea works. You would slot the Racial Specialization in your Elite spec slot and gain traits associated with that race as well as access to racial skills. These skills and traits would be comparable your normal skills and traits instead of actually being just useless as they are now in most cases. HOWEVER! These racial specializations would not be locked by race. Now let me explain. If you start the game as a Norn for example you will have the norn Specialization unlocked automatically but if you wanted to use the charr specialization you would need to head to the black Citadel and take on a "Quest chain" or achievement chain or what ever to unlock access to it, making it so you could use those skills and traits.
    The primary benefit of using these skills on your appropriate race would purely be cosmetic. So if you gain Bear Totem for example, mechanically it would be the exact same for you as it would be for your asura counterpart physically the players would only transform into the bear IF they are a norn. These Specializations would also be locked out of PvP and MAYBE WvW but I'd actually prefer them to be accessible in WvW.
    Other aspects of these Specializations is their names wouldn't be "Human specialization" or "Asura Specialization" but rather "Divinity's Bastion", "Rata Sum Genius", "Warden of the Grove", "Black Citadel Militia", "Legend of Hoelbrak" or something along those lines. The reason I'd have specializations around these ideas as opposed to being named after the race is because I'd also include Specializations for other locations you could unlock such as Amnoon, Blood Legion Homeland, Cantha, Rata Novas and so on. I still expect people to not be okay with this, which is fine, but I like the idea of roleplay it provides as well as being able to feel like the race i'm playing rather than always feeling like generic Character who's no different. Maybe it doesn't change that in some people's eyes, but it would for me. The Racial skills too would have skill types as well, so Asura golems would be minions so they would combo with traits. Same with Charzooka being a kit.

    These are some ideas that Arena net could go with in the future. I think the best one of these is absolutely the new core traits. But hey, there not as limited as we sometimes think. A new class could happen when they hit the critical mass, so I do still think that's a possibility.

    While this part "I'd also include Specializations for other locations you could unlock such as Amnoon, Blood Legion Homeland, Cantha, Rata Novas and so on" might sound interesting as a way of adding some flavor, I don't think there's a good way to introduce anything like that without absolutely kittening up any kind of balance. I'd like to know what kind of skills/traits those specs could add to the game without straight up being worthless for some classes and too strong for the others. Seems hard -if not impossible- to do. Inter-class spec sounds like an absolute balance nightmare.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    [...]

    I don't think there's much of what a new class would bring that new especs couldn't cover, so any interesting idea that they might have, I'd rather see as an espec for current class/es.


    @Lily.1935 said:

    Racial Specializations

    BEFORE YOU PROTEST THIS ONE PLEASE READ IT!
    Now this is an option I'd be quite excited about but here's how the idea works. You would slot the Racial Specialization in your Elite spec slot and gain traits associated with that race as well as access to racial skills. These skills and traits would be comparable your normal skills and traits instead of actually being just useless as they are now in most cases. HOWEVER! These racial specializations would not be locked by race. Now let me explain. If you start the game as a Norn for example you will have the norn Specialization unlocked automatically but if you wanted to use the charr specialization you would need to head to the black Citadel and take on a "Quest chain" or achievement chain or what ever to unlock access to it, making it so you could use those skills and traits.
    The primary benefit of using these skills on your appropriate race would purely be cosmetic. So if you gain Bear Totem for example, mechanically it would be the exact same for you as it would be for your asura counterpart physically the players would only transform into the bear IF they are a norn. These Specializations would also be locked out of PvP and MAYBE WvW but I'd actually prefer them to be accessible in WvW.
    Other aspects of these Specializations is their names wouldn't be "Human specialization" or "Asura Specialization" but rather "Divinity's Bastion", "Rata Sum Genius", "Warden of the Grove", "Black Citadel Militia", "Legend of Hoelbrak" or something along those lines. The reason I'd have specializations around these ideas as opposed to being named after the race is because I'd also include Specializations for other locations you could unlock such as Amnoon, Blood Legion Homeland, Cantha, Rata Novas and so on. I still expect people to not be okay with this, which is fine, but I like the idea of roleplay it provides as well as being able to feel like the race i'm playing rather than always feeling like generic Character who's no different. Maybe it doesn't change that in some people's eyes, but it would for me. The Racial skills too would have skill types as well, so Asura golems would be minions so they would combo with traits. Same with Charzooka being a kit.

    These are some ideas that Arena net could go with in the future. I think the best one of these is absolutely the new core traits. But hey, there not as limited as we sometimes think. A new class could happen when they hit the critical mass, so I do still think that's a possibility.

    While this part "I'd also include Specializations for other locations you could unlock such as Amnoon, Blood Legion Homeland, Cantha, Rata Novas and so on" might sound interesting as a way of adding some flavor, I don't think there's a good way to introduce anything like that without absolutely kittening up any kind of balance. I'd like to know what kind of skills/traits those specs could add to the game without straight up being worthless for some classes and too strong for the others. Seems hard -if not impossible- to do. Inter-class spec sounds like an absolute balance nightmare.

    When adding new skills and traits there will always be an issue of balance. BUT doesn't really matter so much to me as I'm not married to the idea. I would like more traits elsewhere though.

  • Shena Fu.5792Shena Fu.5792 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 18, 2020

    New classes will attract new players and former players. Everyone would start on the same footing (to some extent.)

    Balance is a design goal, not an excuse that should prevent new content. If they haven't felt balance in all 8 years, they're never ever going to get it right. (Magic the Gathering gets over a thousand new cards every year, but they never stop making new cards just because they fear they can't ever achieve 'balance'.)

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 18, 2020

    @Shena Fu.5792 said:
    New classes will attract new players and former players. Everyone would start on the same footing (to some extent.)

    It will attract new/former players as much as especs. Or maybe less, seeing how interesting/good especs change the way you play the class, which means basically 9 refreshed classes with some luck.
    And nobody will magically start on the same footing just because a new class would get introduced into the game -how's that even supposed to work? People that already play the game just "tome" their way to 80 and fully gear the class while knowing and understanding game mechanics. New players are behind no matter what. Not that it matters that much, I just don't understand your point about it (so feel free to explain).

    Balance is a design goal, not an excuse that should prevent new content. If they haven't felt balance in all 8 years, they're never ever going to get it right. (Magic the Gathering gets over a thousand new cards every year, but they never stop making new cards just because they fear they can't ever achieve 'balance'.)

    Yes. Balance is a design goal and I'm (probably like many other people in this thread/game) well aware it's pretty much unreachable. But that doesn't mean the efforts should be thrown away "because it won't be perfect anyways so w/e". And there's still the fact that whatever they come up with might as well be made into an espec, not sure what's the point of forcing a new class that would be 2 especs "shorter" than the other classes available.
    Card game is a whole different thing, there's not much content other than releasing new sets, which also doubles as a main/only source of income. Also because of that -power creep. Pretty sure these 2 genres are not comparable in a way you're trying to do it.

    Almost(?) anything a new class could do, the 9 especs can arguably do better.

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shena Fu.5792 said:
    New classes will attract new players and former players. Everyone would start on the same footing (to some extent.)

    Veterans will use tomes to hit 80 and open some ascended chests/transfer some gear and they are done. Even new players get a lv80 boost.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Shena Fu.5792 said:
    New classes will attract new players and former players. Everyone would start on the same footing (to some extent.)

    It will attract new/former players as much as especs. Or maybe less, seeing how interesting/good especs change the way you play the class, which means basically 9 refreshed classes with some luck.
    And nobody will magically start on the same footing just because a new class would get introduced into the game -how's that even supposed to work? People that already play the game just "tome" their way to 80 and fully gear the class while knowing and understanding game mechanics. New players are behind no matter what. Not that it matters that much, I just don't understand your point about it (so feel free to explain).

    Balance is a design goal, not an excuse that should prevent new content. If they haven't felt balance in all 8 years, they're never ever going to get it right. (Magic the Gathering gets over a thousand new cards every year, but they never stop making new cards just because they fear they can't ever achieve 'balance'.)

    Yes. Balance is a design goal and I'm (probably like many other people in this thread/game) well aware it's pretty much unreachable. But that doesn't mean the efforts should be thrown away "because it won't be perfect anyways so w/e". And there's still the fact that whatever they come up with might as well be made into an espec, not sure what's the point of forcing a new class that would be 2 especs "shorter" than the other classes available.
    Card game is a whole different thing, there's not much content other than releasing new sets, which also doubles as a main/only source of income. Also because of that -power creep. Pretty sure these 2 genres are not comparable in a way you're trying to do it.

    Almost(?) anything a new class could do, the 9 especs can arguably do better.

    Im sorry excuse me, what? No E-specs never attract anyone outside of the community. No one I've ever met who is a new player has bought in or gotten into this game because of Elite specs and often times newer players have no clue what they are. So you're a bit disillusion, there is a reason guild wars right now is not honestly one of the top and its because frankly we are not well known about. People always act surprised when I bring up guild wars 2 like "Oh its still going?" As if they thought it just died in some pasture somewhere.

    Balance is a poor excuse for lacking creativity. One the community LOVES to throw around, just like how they don't have the resources as if A-net is not backed by NCsoft who is huge and is some indie company. If NCsoft wasn't willing to support this game they would of shut it down when they laid a bunch of people off; Clearly there is a reason they are keeping it going. Perhaps because oh I don't know.... It smashed when it initially released and expansions sell well to the community, but I think A-net might have a bigger prize in their sights... which might be a new audience ontop of their current one.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 19, 2020

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Shena Fu.5792 said:
    New classes will attract new players and former players. Everyone would start on the same footing (to some extent.)

    It will attract new/former players as much as especs. Or maybe less, seeing how interesting/good especs change the way you play the class, which means basically 9 refreshed classes with some luck.
    And nobody will magically start on the same footing just because a new class would get introduced into the game -how's that even supposed to work? People that already play the game just "tome" their way to 80 and fully gear the class while knowing and understanding game mechanics. New players are behind no matter what. Not that it matters that much, I just don't understand your point about it (so feel free to explain).

    Balance is a design goal, not an excuse that should prevent new content. If they haven't felt balance in all 8 years, they're never ever going to get it right. (Magic the Gathering gets over a thousand new cards every year, but they never stop making new cards just because they fear they can't ever achieve 'balance'.)

    Yes. Balance is a design goal and I'm (probably like many other people in this thread/game) well aware it's pretty much unreachable. But that doesn't mean the efforts should be thrown away "because it won't be perfect anyways so w/e". And there's still the fact that whatever they come up with might as well be made into an espec, not sure what's the point of forcing a new class that would be 2 especs "shorter" than the other classes available.
    Card game is a whole different thing, there's not much content other than releasing new sets, which also doubles as a main/only source of income. Also because of that -power creep. Pretty sure these 2 genres are not comparable in a way you're trying to do it.

    Almost(?) anything a new class could do, the 9 especs can arguably do better.

    Im sorry excuse me, what? No E-specs never attract anyone outside of the community. No one I've ever met who is a new player has bought in or gotten into this game because of Elite specs and often times newer players have no clue what they are. So you're a bit disillusion, there is a reason guild wars right now is not honestly one of the top and its because frankly we are not well known about. People always act surprised when I bring up guild wars 2 like "Oh its still going?" As if they thought it just died in some pasture somewhere.

    Try re-reading what exactly I wrote and then you won't need to pretend to be so surprised.
    Here's the claim I was responding to: "New classes will attract new players and former players"
    Here's what I responded: "It will attract new/former players as much as especs."

    Yes, I do agree with your statement that especs pretty much never attract anyone outisde of the community. Which -in my opinion- is the same level of new-player-attraction a new class will bring. Whether he thinks it attracts a lot of new players or not, it won't be different from new especs. So his pseudo-argument in favor of a new class is just false. If something about that answer is still unclear for you, then feel free to ask.

    People being surprised about game's existance is a mostly meaningless argument. I'm LITERALLY surprised about survival of vast majority (but probably ALL) mmorpgs -wow, tera (if that's still alive? Also that's a potentially decent example of what "new class" does to the game. Nothing.), bdo, ff, you name it. I don't care about those games, them adding a new class, spec, mechanic or a whole expansion will not make me start playing them. It's irrelevant. Claiming that a new class can suddenly bring new players despite them being uninsterested in the previous 9, the overal gameplay, 2 expansions, 18 especs and all the content available seems to be a bit... naive.

    Balance is a poor excuse for lacking creativity. [...something-something-anet-resources...]

    No, it's not. I like how some people repeat that as some kind of magical mantra, but at the same time they don't even respond to what they've quoted.
    If you ACTUALLY want to answer, then feel free to go back to that short post you've ignored for some reason:
    "I don't think there's much of what a new class would bring that new especs couldn't cover, so any interesting idea that they might have, I'd rather see as an espec for current class/es."
    ...which was even repeated in the post you've just quoted, yet still remained with no response:
    "And there's still the fact that whatever they come up with might as well be made into an espec, not sure what's the point of forcing a new class that would be 2 especs "shorter" than the other classes available."

  • Hawkeye.2308Hawkeye.2308 Member ✭✭

    Some of us were talking about this last night and we were looking at some of the GW1 classes that have come over.
    Warrior, Ranger, Mesmer, Ele, Necro those 5 we have felt stayed true to a lot of the core ideals from GW1
    Thief is just a reworked assassin with some changes and Guardian is a completely different style monk without a lot of the healing in the base class.
    Rev is sort of a new version of the Dervish, Even though I would love to see a entire new dervish reworked with a scythe, since they can call upon spirits to aid

    I think if they wanted to bring over another class we truly only have 2 options are Paragon and Rit
    With all the shouts, chants and boons Paragon would be a good fit into a ranged dps and bring a new weapon the spear into the category and then they could add another elite spec that would all be synergy around spears or spear shield or other weapons.

    Rit would be cool because it could use current weapons in the game just fine without adding anything while also bringing it new spirits and such to the game again. It would be like a support necro and I think it would mesh well along with fit with the rumored new expansion coming out where paragon would have fit more into season 4 living world since we were back in hte Nightfall areas.

    I think both would be awesome options if they decided to pull from the older content or they could just rework them all together and call it something else like I feel they did with the Rev being a different version of the dervish.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭

    The engineer is the reskined version of the ritualist from GW1.
    Quite some stuff in the engineer's kit is supposed to be Anet's translation of ritualist's mechanics into GW2.

    Turrets are basically the same as spirits, just with a different appearance. They are still stationary minions which are effecing their environment in different ways, either through attacking or pulsing benefits for allies (boons and healing from the healing turret).

    Kits are their attempt to translate ashes into GW2, which is way more defined by your weapons than it has been the case in GW1. Broken down, ashes were basically just conjured items you could hold or drop for different effects. Completely disabling your weapon skills, like they did in GW1, would feel bad in this game, so they went another route by making the engineer summon an item that replaces their current weapon skills with new ones.

    Mechanically, the only thing from ritualist that is missing on engineers are weapon spells. Something that at least comes close to them, at least in my opinion, would be the venoms put on thieves.

    Anyway, I know many people would like to see ritualist return, but I think the only realistic way for that is through an elite spec to give us some of their thematical flair back. Mechanically, most of their stuff got already translated into the engineer.

  • Super Hayes.6890Super Hayes.6890 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They don't need to keep armor weights balanced if they release new professions. What does it matter if there are more professions in one armor weight versus another anyway? You guys are really gonna lose your kitten if they release three new professions that don't cover all armor weights aren't you?? Like two mediums and a heavy but no light for example. That would make these forums active again lol. I would love to see new professions again regardless of armor weight.

    The next time you get angry at someone try walking a mile in their shoes. After that, who cares! You're a mile away and you have their shoes! -Someone with more awesome quotes than me

  • Hawkeye.2308Hawkeye.2308 Member ✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    The engineer is the reskined version of the ritualist from GW1.
    Quite some stuff in the engineer's kit is supposed to be Anet's translation of ritualist's mechanics into GW2.

    Turrets are basically the same as spirits, just with a different appearance. They are still stationary minions which are effecing their environment in different ways, either through attacking or pulsing benefits for allies (boons and healing from the healing turret).

    Kits are their attempt to translate ashes into GW2, which is way more defined by your weapons than it has been the case in GW1. Broken down, ashes were basically just conjured items you could hold or drop for different effects. Completely disabling your weapon skills, like they did in GW1, would feel bad in this game, so they went another route by making the engineer summon an item that replaces their current weapon skills with new ones.

    Mechanically, the only thing from ritualist that is missing on engineers are weapon spells. Something that at least comes close to them, at least in my opinion, would be the venoms put on thieves.

    Anyway, I know many people would like to see ritualist return, but I think the only realistic way for that is through an elite spec to give us some of their thematical flair back. Mechanically, most of their stuff got already translated into the engineer.

    There is a lot of similarities but to me the Rit spirits had a lot more utility to them they were more than just damage and you could move them to you. I didnt think about the eng being like that since its a lot different in appearance and such. Thanks for pointing that out! Also the rit to me had overall more utility because the current "meta" eng builds in a lot of siutation dont utilitlize the turrets. I see more eng running scrapper or holo rather than using them the way a Rit would. I think it would be cool to hav that hybrid of a class thats a mix of a boon creater, healer, and also use aoe and dots like they did.

    Personally I lilke the idea of the paragon a little more with the spears being an entire new thing.

  • Hawkeye.2308Hawkeye.2308 Member ✭✭

    @Super Hayes.6890 said:
    They don't need to keep armor weights balanced if they release new professions. What does it matter if there are more professions in one armor weight versus another anyway? You guys are really gonna lose your kitten if they release three new professions that don't cover all armor weights aren't you?? Like two mediums and a heavy but no light for example. That would make these forums active again lol. I would love to see new professions again regardless of armor weight.

    From what I have seen in most end game pvp situations everyone just melts anyway minus a few classes, like people complain about light armor but a necro can take a lot of hits haha. I see this a lot in other MMO communities as well where people want the same number of armor type classes all around for a perfect synergy of perfection. Those people dont pay attention to this game. It doesnt follow the trinity like more other MMO's do so why would it follow a lot of the other aspects as well. Anet wants to be different not be part of the same cookie cutter mold

  • Hawkeye.2308Hawkeye.2308 Member ✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Not a good idea, new class would be an absurd amount of work.

    Not only would you need a new class but it would have to come with 2 elite specs to make it "fair"
    Add to that it would imbalance the armour tiers.. adding a new light would make people want a new medium and heavy too so they wouldn't be able to add just 1 new class they'd need to add 3 and each of them would need 2 specs each too meaning to make adding new classes fair we'd need 3 new professions with 6 new elite specs, and then there's the balancing problem..

    Just adding 9 new elite specs per expansion is already a headache.. adding 3 new professions now would be a foolish thing to do and likely do far more harm than good.

    Almost no MMO has equal amount of armor classer. WoW doesnt even have that either. I think its just a fantasy to have a perfect world where everything is equal. There can be more or less than another. Just from reading in this post it just seems like people are just not ever going to be happy about everything and just find something to complain about because people want everything their own way. I remember pvp in gw1 and it was mostly fair and I played it from factions on. True balance is a fantasy that people need to get out of their heads. Most MMO's normally have the rock paper scissor mentality where certain classes outshine or counter other classes. There cant be a perfect class or everyone would play it. I will say though some buffs and debuffs as always tilt the scale and they have to adjust again but overall we have seen meta change time and time again with patches and that shows people and classes are able to adjust to content to the game. The problem with MMO's are min maxers imo. They are so focused on squeezing the highest dps and make others feel bad about not running a certain build and it takes away from the game completely. I know you have to try to get good dps and all that to make sure you clear dps checks and all that but im more referring to the people who make others feel bad for not pulling the highest numbers possbile and I have seen that in this game.

    All of that just reminds me of the Fairly Odd parents where he wishes for everyone to be the same and even though they all looked alike it didnt change them on the inside and who they were. MMO's can be as balanced as they but you cannot change the people who play them and a toxic community will ruin a game faster than a game not being balanced.