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I feel like it might be time we get a new class.

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  • Jasonbdj.4021Jasonbdj.4021 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2020

    I would rather stick with elite specs then all on one class, keep on giving new features to the current class.

    New class will not bring anything new, will increase balancing difficulty etc and if you don't like it then sorry the resources went on the new class leaving current ones with nothing new. This would lead to lots of very unhappy people.

    What possible theme class can you bring into this?

    Death, undead, shadow - Nerco
    Love and light, monk - Guard
    Angry fighter, weapon mastery - Warrior
    Animal/tree/spirit lovers - Ranger
    Engineer, tech lover - Engineer
    The unknown, mist - Rev
    Elementalist - Elementalist
    Illusions, time, Manipulations -Mesmers
    Assassin, steath, fast - Theif

    Many ideas can easily fit into the current with is great as it give them something new.

    We are missing candy corn magic - Candy Master!?

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hawkeye.2308 said:
    Some of us were talking about this last night and we were looking at some of the GW1 classes that have come over.
    Warrior, Ranger, Mesmer, Ele, Necro those 5 we have felt stayed true to a lot of the core ideals from GW1

    Mesmer, Elementalist and Necromancer are all vastly different from their GW1 counterpart. Warrior and Ranger are actually very close, so its not like its a difference of systems.

    The elementalist changes were mostly positive in my opinion though, so there is that. Elementalist is quite different and actually ele was re balanced later in GW1's life to fit closer to the GW2 elementalist's style. That didn't quite work since Ele can't attunment swap so its quite different. Even staying in one element doesn't quite feel the same. its not a different bad though as they're both fun.

    WITH THAT SAID! For the elementalist I would actually really like to see a mono elemental specialist for them. Which I've been thinking about for a while as an elite spec. Instead of swapping elemental attunments you choose your element before battle(A guildy suggested 4 Grandmaster traits which locked you into one of the 4 which is an interesting idea) and each of your attunments, including fire, becomes something called a "Prayer" which you can swap into to get some passive buffs and the buffs of those specific traits from their respective magic without actually swapping attunments. Other ideas I had was like a a skill like skill 5 would be replaced so you can spend your passive for a flashy spell but it would burn up that attunment until you swap or if you use your attunment swap on your current element you become a living avatar of that element. I'm still work shopping the idea. But I do think that sort of Elite spec would fill the missing element that was left behind in GW1 from elementalist.

    As for Mesmer, Mesmer is closer to an Assassin in play style than GW1 mesmer. A lot of this has to do with just how mobile the mesmer is in comparison to GW1. Even the other casters, Elementalist and Necromancer, which did get more mobility aren't quite as mobile as either the Mesmer or the Assassin. There's other elements that seem to be dropped from mesmer as well such as the energy denial. Which, yeah, we can't do in GW2 which is a loss of part of their identity but also the aspect of their Interrupts and Hexes which don't have the same impact as they did in GW1. Mesmer hexes were more disruptive, punishing action. And although we have Confusion we don't have other hexes like Ineptitude or Mistrust in spirit for the mesmer. We KINDA do with Ineptitude the trait, but its not quite there. So a More controlling, ranged debuff type elite spec could help with that.

    With that said on the mesmer, I Do think that some of these missing elements can be implemented into the game as an Elite spec. I had an old Idea called the Siren which would cause AoE field effects using short lasting pulsing fields which would distort the opponent's available actions within these fields. At the center of the fields would be a Phantasm or clone that could be shattered to break the Hex like field. But these Field effects would be called songs and would replace the normal shatter skills to give you these AoE hex like effects. Some of them were like Empathy(Which is similar to confusion) while another was like Fevered dreams which would spread conditions or even like mistrust or panic which could cause a foe's next action to be disrupted and fail. I think using a sort of AoE field control type Mesmer could be exactly what they're missing that could be implemented into GW2.

    With Necromancer there's actually a lot different. If anything they're the least like their GW1 counterpart. GW1 necromancer was extremely glassy, literally the most glassy class in the game and was more of a debuff and support class than anything else. They don't fill that role very well. Debuffing sure, but they're anything but glassy and their support is mostly lacking except for scourge, but the support scourge provided and GW1 necromancer provided is so different that the scourge has more similarities with the Ritualist than the actual necromancer. We don't see the high number disposable minions opting instead to use easy use minions with minimal area impact, we don't see the high sacrificial burst builds instead tanky builds, don't see the offensive support of the GW1 necromancer such as Mark of Pain builds or Orders builds. There is a lot missing and I highly doubt 1 elite specialization could fill that huge gap in their play style.

    With that said, some play styles absolutely can be filled for necromancer. Sacrificial skills are a long requested skill type for necromancer, using their health as a resource which could allow for a more glassy necromancer set which can be difficult to use but rewarding to those who practice it. The same spec could also provide party buffs at the cost of their own health or even support more minions with bombing potential. Much of this design would require yet another shroudless elite spec so that's not the most popular direction for necromancer, however there are other aspects that are missing that could be looked into. A shroud that eats the player's health instead of blocks damage and makes them steal health with attacks could be very blood magic. And we have seen the empowerment of necromancer skills through self infliction of conditions so a sort of "Awaken the blood" type spec could be extremely flavorful and fun as a more glassy set for necromancer. There is definitely room for the GW1's necro design on GW2 necromancer, its just got to get arena net to take that initiative.

    I could honestly talk about the Mage professions all day. Took me a while to get into Elementalist but now that I'm into it I'm actually really liking it. Mesmer and necromancer were my two mains in GW1 and my disappointment with both of them in GW2 is felt pretty heavily to this day. But I'm always looking towards the future. Who knows, maybe we'll get these lost elements that were left behind.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2020

    @Lily.1935 said:

    I can't really agree that the necromancer has been the most glassy class in the game, tbh.
    It really depended on the build you were running. When I was playing necromancer in GW1, I was running a minionmancer build mostly relying on vampiric horrors and combined it with the elite skill Order of Undeath, which increased the damage dealt by the vampiric horrors and therefore the healing.

    Once you had some corpses to reanimate, the healing you got from your minions was absurdly high and I didn't feel squishy at all.
    Also necromancer in general had alot of lifesteal mechanics. I don't think you can really call out the necromancer as the glassiest class of Guild Wars 1.

    Also the self sacrifice skills might potentially interesting, but they have some thematical overlap with the "corruption" skills necromancer already has access to.
    So instead of making the self sacrifice skills a new skill type for the necromancer, I would give another class the "corruption" skill type from necromancer and instead of inflicting conditions on themselves, this other class sacrifices health for the effect.

    That could have many different thematical flavours.

    • engineer using dangerous chemicals, harming themselves while wreaking havoc on enemies
    • rangers sacrificing their own flesh/blood to nature spirits for devastating effects
    • elementalists turning their own body into the element they want to control, damaging them in the process

    And so on. Would actually be great for flavour. Elite specs are Anets way to give us "dual classes", by mixing some thematics of another class.
    Spellbreaker, for example, was their vision of the "warrior/mesmer fusion", they are warriors which are able to see through illusions.
    This new elite spec could have the thematic enhanced by mixing in some necromancer with the self sacrifice abilities here.
    Like how a chemical warfare specialist engineer, who damages himself with the dangerous toxins and acids he is working with, could be seen as a thematical combination of the engineer and necromancer.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2020

    @Hawkeye.2308 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Not a good idea, new class would be an absurd amount of work.

    Not only would you need a new class but it would have to come with 2 elite specs to make it "fair"
    Add to that it would imbalance the armour tiers.. adding a new light would make people want a new medium and heavy too so they wouldn't be able to add just 1 new class they'd need to add 3 and each of them would need 2 specs each too meaning to make adding new classes fair we'd need 3 new professions with 6 new elite specs, and then there's the balancing problem..

    Just adding 9 new elite specs per expansion is already a headache.. adding 3 new professions now would be a foolish thing to do and likely do far more harm than good.

    Almost no MMO has equal amount of armor classer. WoW doesnt even have that either. I think its just a fantasy to have a perfect world where everything is equal. There can be more or less than another. Just from reading in this post it just seems like people are just not ever going to be happy about everything and just find something to complain about because people want everything their own way. I remember pvp in gw1 and it was mostly fair and I played it from factions on. True balance is a fantasy that people need to get out of their heads. Most MMO's normally have the rock paper scissor mentality where certain classes outshine or counter other classes. There cant be a perfect class or everyone would play it. I will say though some buffs and debuffs as always tilt the scale and they have to adjust again but overall we have seen meta change time and time again with patches and that shows people and classes are able to adjust to content to the game. The problem with MMO's are min maxers imo. They are so focused on squeezing the highest dps and make others feel bad about not running a certain build and it takes away from the game completely. I know you have to try to get good dps and all that to make sure you clear dps checks and all that but im more referring to the people who make others feel bad for not pulling the highest numbers possbile and I have seen that in this game.

    All of that just reminds me of the Fairly Odd parents where he wishes for everyone to be the same and even though they all looked alike it didnt change them on the inside and who they were. MMO's can be as balanced as they but you cannot change the people who play them and a toxic community will ruin a game faster than a game not being balanced.

    The equal number of classes isn't really the problem, Prior to Revenant we had that unequal number and for the most part people didn't seem that bothered about it.

    The problem is the gap between a new class and an old one.
    They would either have to add in new classes with 2-3 elite specs right from the start which is a massive amount of work to do and would guaranteed be an absolute clusterkitten to balance, or they would have to design these new classes from their core to be competitive with older classes that have 2-3 elite specs which would again be a nightmare for balancing.

    The only pro to it would be people having a new class to play.. and I just don't see that as a good enough reason to throw new classes into the game at this point.
    Elite specs already do a good enough job of making existing classes play and feel like new ones.. at least a fair number of them do and I expect that will continue to grow with a 3rd set down the road and future changes.. or more specifically trade offs to taking them.

    While I too loved Gw1 and the amount of skills the game had there was good reason for so much of that to not come into Gw2.
    Bringing new classes into the game now would be a lot similar to Gw1's excessive number of skills problem.

    I agree with you on the whole meta thing though, I've never been a fan of Min Maxing, it's not something I enjoy doing nor care about.
    I've never agreed with the meta mindset that there is only X amount of ways each class can be played and all other ways are wrong, that is not what this game is about.. in fact it spits in the face of Gw2's original decision to move away from the Holy Trinity and design Gw2 to be a MMO where you can play however you want to.

    The min max meta builds are NOT! the best builds in the game like many promote them as, they're just the best for min maxing DPS.
    DPS is not the be all and end all of build crafting and there's plenty of decent builds out there which sacrifice a little or a lot of DPS for other things like support, survivability, tanking, sustain etc and nobody should be made to feel bad becuase they prefer/enjoy to play that way.

    Adding more classes in would also worsen that problem too, there's already some classes on the low end of the want list for some content.. adding more just pushes them further and further down.. unless the new classes take the bottom slots which would make them just as undesierable instead.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    I can't really agree that the necromancer has been the most glassy class in the game, tbh.
    It really depended on the build you were running. When I was playing necromancer in GW1, I was running a minionmancer build mostly relying on vampiric horrors and combined it with the elite skill Order of Undeath, which increased the damage dealt by the vampiric horrors and therefore the healing.

    Once you had some corpses to reanimate, the healing you got from your minions was absurdly high and I didn't feel squishy at all.
    Also necromancer in general had alot of lifesteal mechanics. I don't think you can really call out the necromancer as the glassiest class of Guild Wars 1.

    Also the self sacrifice skills might potentially interesting, but they have some thematical overlap with the "corruption" skills necromancer already has access to.
    So instead of making the self sacrifice skills a new skill type for the necromancer, I would give another class the "corruption" skill type from necromancer and instead of inflicting conditions on themselves, this other class sacrifices health for the effect.

    That could have many different thematical flavours.

    • engineer using dangerous chemicals, harming themselves while wreaking havoc on enemies
    • rangers sacrificing their own flesh/blood to nature spirits for devastating effects
    • elementalists turning their own body into the element they want to control, damaging them in the process

    And so on. Would actually be great for flavour. Elite specs are Anets way to give us "dual classes", by mixing some thematics of another class.
    Spellbreaker, for example, was their vision of the "warrior/mesmer fusion", they are warriors which are able to see through illusions.
    This new elite spec could have the thematic enhanced by mixing in some necromancer with the self sacrifice abilities here.
    Like how a chemical warfare specialist engineer, who damages himself with the dangerous toxins and acids he is working with, could be seen as a thematical combination of the engineer and necromancer.

    Lets take the classes in a vacuum and not include Dual classing. Which with Dual classing in GW1, anyone could be quite tanky and survivable. But looking at necromancers skills and on its own they only really had one defensive skill in Dark bond which, yes made them really hard to kill, but this was conditional based on your minions and also minions required corpses so there wasn't a lot of Defense beyond that. Life stealing or self healing isn't defense, all classes can self heal, some better than others. Necromancer had the highest self healing when they were consuming corpses or their minions but some of the lowest otherwise and most conditional. Looking at the other Mage classes such as Elementalist, The elementalist had multiple enchantments to reduce damage to zero or near zero while also having extremely potent recovery skills. Not as reliable as a monk, this shouldn't be over looked.

    Necromancer Had one true defensive skills and other reactive self healing which I don't count self healing as defensive especially when its based on the character's offense. Necromancer also used a lot of health sacrifice skills which did hurt their survivability quite drastically such as Blood of the Master or Order of Undeath as you've stated yourself. The thing was that these really made Necromancer quite frail and teetering on the edge at all times. Necromancer as a class with no cross classing going out into the world by themselves would have a really hard time building themselves up even with their tankiest builds. While say a Mesmer, Elementalist, Monk or Ritualist all have far superior defensive abilities that were not so conditional.

    Elementalist I covered with their wards and enchantments which nearly doubled their armor and even make themselves immune to spells.
    Mesmer Had their armor stances and ability to cheat death with illusion of health.
    Ritualist could body block with Spirits but their spirits could also be used to reduce damage to almost nothing(Literally one of the most broken builds in PvE in GW1) as well as blocking damage with weapon spells and urns.
    Monk had dozens of quick cast enchantments which blocked damage or absorbed it and could make themselves immune to spells.
    Warrior had natural bulk but could also gain blocks and more health as well and could even reduce their damage by quite a bit.
    Dervish could reduce the damage they took as well as increase their armor, had blocks.
    Ranger had Blocks and traps.
    Paragon had blocks and armor buffs and damage reduction.
    Assassin was the best tank in the game with damage reduction, blocks, spell immunity, becoming the closest any class had ever gotten to immortality.

    All of them had self healing and some even life stealing including Dervish, assassin and Ritualist. And some had further defenses like knock downs, blinds and disruption. Necromancer's Defenses were mostly situational, even your specific build was very situational and was a very glassy way to play a Minion master. Without the support of a good healer you're sorta dead in the water in a lot of instances. Of course necromancer can function with cross classing as a Minion master and healer pretty well, although I wouldn't recommend it personally since that would probably be too divided of focus.

    There really isn't an argument about if the necromancer was the most glassy class in GW1. It was. That's just the facts. You look at their skills and what options they have without cross classing and its extremely obvious that was extremely frail both from the lack of their defensive utility and their self sacrificial nature. Now, I actually really liked this aspect of them, but it wasn't easy to break out of the fear of using my health as a resource when I was younger.

  • Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629 Member ✭✭
    edited May 19, 2020

    Nope it's too much work for not enough people to use it. I'd prefer they work on existing classes, their faults and making them better than adding a new class. Elite specs are really interesting and add alot to refreshing classes.

    I think Anet's time would be better spent fixing Revenant on a whole, Thief in High end PvE, Warrior in PvP , etc than building a new class to be shoehorned into the lore and the work to build core and 3 elite specs or worse core and 1 elite spec. Personally, I prefer them designing new weapons , armor , maps , legendaries , improving optimization, new features (gliding / mounts), more elite specs oh and WvW ... that needs some help too.

    I think them adding a new Race is just as unlikely and new weapons are a pipe dream but possible, especially as warrior is starting to really need more weapons without going into mage territory / specter / staff (kind of) / focus / etc.

    This comment is just my opinion.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jasonbdj.4021 said:
    I would rather stick with elite specs then all on one class, keep on giving new features to the current class.

    New class will not bring anything new, will increase balancing difficulty etc and if you don't like it then sorry the resources went on the new class leaving current ones with nothing new. This would lead to lots of very unhappy people.

    What possible theme class can you bring into this?

    Death, undead, shadow - Nerco
    Love and light, monk - Guard
    Angry fighter, weapon mastery - Warrior
    Animal/tree/spirit lovers - Ranger
    Engineer, tech lover - Engineer
    The unknown, mist - Rev
    Elementalist - Elementalist
    Illusions, time, Manipulations -Mesmers
    Assassin, steath, fast - Theif

    Many ideas can easily fit into the current with is great as it give them something new.

    We are missing candy corn magic - Candy Master!?

    More like
    Light, Blue Fire, Paladin - Guard

    We are missing some combination of gameplay and look. Having a class X theme with a class Y gameplay would open many possibilities for people who don't find something they like in what's currently available.
    Letting any class use any armor type skin (unmixed) would help.
    Like a Reaper in full plate armor, a Druid in cloth armor, an Elementalist in Magitech armor, a Spellbreaker in leather, a Revenant in Seer light armor, an Asura Engineer in Electromagnetic armor, ...

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Jasonbdj.4021 said:
    I would rather stick with elite specs then all on one class, keep on giving new features to the current class.

    New class will not bring anything new, will increase balancing difficulty etc and if you don't like it then sorry the resources went on the new class leaving current ones with nothing new. This would lead to lots of very unhappy people.

    What possible theme class can you bring into this?

    Death, undead, shadow - Nerco
    Love and light, monk - Guard
    Angry fighter, weapon mastery - Warrior
    Animal/tree/spirit lovers - Ranger
    Engineer, tech lover - Engineer
    The unknown, mist - Rev
    Elementalist - Elementalist
    Illusions, time, Manipulations -Mesmers
    Assassin, steath, fast - Theif

    Many ideas can easily fit into the current with is great as it give them something new.

    We are missing candy corn magic - Candy Master!?

    More like
    Light, Blue Fire, Paladin - Guard

    We are missing some combination of gameplay and look. Having a class X theme with a class Y gameplay would open many possibilities for people who don't find something they like in what's currently available.
    Letting any class use any armor type skin (unmixed) would help.
    Like a Reaper in full plate armor, a Druid in cloth armor, an Elementalist in Magitech armor, a Spellbreaker in leather, a Revenant in Seer light armor, an Asura Engineer in Electromagnetic armor, ...

    Although I'd love to be able to use different armor classes, the issue with it in GW2 specifically is there is no penalty for wearing heavy armor. In other games like Skyrim, D&D and others I can't think of right now, where you have these different armor classes that can be worn by anyone the differences in their protection is dramatic. Heavy armor in Dungeons and dragons can give a high AC while light armor gives very little to the casters. The other aspect is that heavy armor will often have a weight penalty so you can't dodge as often, stamina drains quicker energy wont regen as quickly, those sort of things. Spell casting gets buffed in light armor as does movement options so the differences are pretty well defined. We don't have such a system. We don't have a real stamina system or energy system in the game which takes that out. Armor plays a minimal role in Damage reduction too. Although it exists its not as drastic as it would need to be to really change much. Plus the stats each set gives you is the same availability. This would make it so there is no reason not to just use heavy armor. Even though the difference isn't much its still something like a 10% damage reduction or something like that with no drawbacks tacked onto it.

    I have my gripes with the armor system in GW2, but we can't really just change that. Its unfortunate because if we ever see a GW3 I absolutely would love to see the armor types be vastly different in terms of their utility for the player.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Jasonbdj.4021 said:
    I would rather stick with elite specs then all on one class, keep on giving new features to the current class.

    New class will not bring anything new, will increase balancing difficulty etc and if you don't like it then sorry the resources went on the new class leaving current ones with nothing new. This would lead to lots of very unhappy people.

    What possible theme class can you bring into this?

    Death, undead, shadow - Nerco
    Love and light, monk - Guard
    Angry fighter, weapon mastery - Warrior
    Animal/tree/spirit lovers - Ranger
    Engineer, tech lover - Engineer
    The unknown, mist - Rev
    Elementalist - Elementalist
    Illusions, time, Manipulations -Mesmers
    Assassin, steath, fast - Theif

    Many ideas can easily fit into the current with is great as it give them something new.

    We are missing candy corn magic - Candy Master!?

    More like
    Light, Blue Fire, Paladin - Guard

    We are missing some combination of gameplay and look. Having a class X theme with a class Y gameplay would open many possibilities for people who don't find something they like in what's currently available.
    Letting any class use any armor type skin (unmixed) would help.
    Like a Reaper in full plate armor, a Druid in cloth armor, an Elementalist in Magitech armor, a Spellbreaker in leather, a Revenant in Seer light armor, an Asura Engineer in Electromagnetic armor, ...

    Although I'd love to be able to use different armor classes, the issue with it in GW2 specifically is there is no penalty for wearing heavy armor. In other games like Skyrim, D&D and others I can't think of right now, where you have these different armor classes that can be worn by anyone the differences in their protection is dramatic. Heavy armor in Dungeons and dragons can give a high AC while light armor gives very little to the casters. The other aspect is that heavy armor will often have a weight penalty so you can't dodge as often, stamina drains quicker energy wont regen as quickly, those sort of things. Spell casting gets buffed in light armor as does movement options so the differences are pretty well defined. We don't have such a system. We don't have a real stamina system or energy system in the game which takes that out. Armor plays a minimal role in Damage reduction too. Although it exists its not as drastic as it would need to be to really change much. Plus the stats each set gives you is the same availability. This would make it so there is no reason not to just use heavy armor. Even though the difference isn't much its still something like a 10% damage reduction or something like that with no drawbacks tacked onto it.

    I have my gripes with the armor system in GW2, but we can't really just change that. Its unfortunate because if we ever see a GW3 I absolutely would love to see the armor types be vastly different in terms of their utility for the player.

    I did put the word "skin" in bold letters and someone still missed it :)
    They would still remain heavy / medium / light for balance purpose even if they put on the look of a different armor type.

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2020

    @Hawkeye.2308 said:
    Some of us were talking about this last night and we were looking at some of the GW1 classes that have come over.
    Warrior, Ranger, Mesmer, Ele, Necro those 5 we have felt stayed true to a lot of the core ideals from GW1
    Thief is just a reworked assassin with some changes and Guardian is a completely different style monk without a lot of the healing in the base class.
    Rev is sort of a new version of the Dervish, Even though I would love to see a entire new dervish reworked with a scythe, since they can call upon spirits to aid

    I think if they wanted to bring over another class we truly only have 2 options are Paragon and Rit
    With all the shouts, chants and boons Paragon would be a good fit into a ranged dps and bring a new weapon the spear into the category and then they could add another elite spec that would all be synergy around spears or spear shield or other weapons.

    Rit would be cool because it could use current weapons in the game just fine without adding anything while also bringing it new spirits and such to the game again. It would be like a support necro and I think it would mesh well along with fit with the rumored new expansion coming out where paragon would have fit more into season 4 living world since we were back in hte Nightfall areas.

    I think both would be awesome options if they decided to pull from the older content or they could just rework them all together and call it something else like I feel they did with the Rev being a different version of the dervish.

    Rev is a combination of Dervish and Ritualist, they commune with figures of the past from the Mist, like Rits, but instead of summoning them as spirits, they channel them like Dervs.

    And Renegade is pretty much a proper ritualist, they use static spirits for healing, support, damage, disruption.

  • Samug.6512Samug.6512 Member ✭✭✭

    Nope. We have a full set. No need for more.

    [NUKE]

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Bringing the conversation back to new Classes, if and when we get one people are saying that all of the possible niches are filled. I don't agree with that idea at all and its not like classes can't or don't currently overlap in some of there themes. Necromancers and Revenants thematically overlap with their connection with the mists and dead. GW1 had that as well with the Necro and Ritualist. Thief and Engineer have some overlap as well in their design with Engineer having gadgets and thief using trick arrows and do use quite a bit of tech in their skills. Warriors are a basic class with Guardian sharing some warrior principles but taking on holy magic to it. Thematically the overlap is there in the game already. So would it be a stretch to add another Holy type class such as a Monk or another class that deals with nature such as a sort of blue mage that steals monster magic?

    I want to talk about the Blue mage and Monk(priest) archetypes because although they have some overlap with existing classes they can't actually fit in them so well. A Blue mage has some similar philosophies to the Revenant and Ranger in that they're borrowing power from another creature/being, mechanically they couldn't quite capture that sort of play style or Philosophy.

    For those who might not be too familiar with Final Fantasy, a Blue Mage is a magic user who fights monsters and steals monster magic specifically to use in combat. The most famous example of a monster ability that is used in the game is bad breath or thousand needles. Guild wars 1 Actually had a system in place that gave the players this play style since you had skill capture signets and the only way to get elite skills for the longest time was to find an enemy with that skill, defeat them and use the signet to capture that skill. This sort of play style is pretty unique and giving players the ability to use, say, a blood crazed white mantle skill would be interesting and could create a rather chaotic skill kit. It would be a lot of work to implement a class like this into GW2, but its something that isn't quite filled by the other roles even if it has some overlap.

    The monk on the other hand can't be implemented through the elite spec system due to the only class with the same theme, Guardian, has quite a few philosophical differences in the way each of them approaches a given situation. I don't actually agree with the idea that these Two classes would feel all that similar since Monk does have the means to diverge itself quite a bit since the Guardian's holy magic usually is a bit more martial although not always. Other than for Nostalgia reasons and the desire to play a cloth wearing holy mage there really isn't much of a reason to go that rout.

    The big aspect of adding a new class though that could be difficult is their unique mechanic. The theme of it could overlap but if it isn't mechanically diverse in its approach to how it does things there isn't a reason to go and add it. There is still a lot of room for unique mechanics that could be added to the game. I invented one for a Ritualist a while back which used an urn and energy type mechanic which would create some unique gameplay. So I think this is really what we'd have to look at in terms of If and how a new class could come into the game. Would it provide a new way to play the game?

    IF Guild wars 2 is expected to survive another 10 years suggesting that these 9 classes will be enough is probably not as true as you might believe. There is a limit to how far the elite specialization system can go with the professions we have now. And once that peek is hit a new class that has its own set of elite specializations could be a viable option in the future as opposed to just adding a new Elite spec for each class each time. If the cap on elite specs is 5, which is higher than quite a few people think it would be, than a new class for a future expansion would likely be an equal or even less amount of work for the team than designing elite specs for each class with such a wild difference resource requirements.

    But that's my perspective. Now do I want a new class? Sure. I'm not married to the idea though. As I feel the elite specs are Functioning well at the current stage of GW2's life. But for the future I do see it being embraced eventually.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629 said:
    Nope it's too much work for not enough people to use it. I'd prefer they work on existing classes, their faults and making them better than adding a new class. Elite specs are really interesting and add alot to refreshing classes.

    I think Anet's time would be better spent fixing Revenant on a whole, Thief in High end PvE, Warrior in PvP , etc than building a new class to be shoehorned into the lore and the work to build core and 3 elite specs or worse core and 1 elite spec. Personally, I prefer them designing new weapons , armor , maps , legendaries , improving optimization, new features (gliding / mounts), more elite specs oh and WvW ... that needs some help too.

    I think them adding a new Race is just as unlikely and new weapons are a pipe dream but possible, especially as warrior is starting to really need more weapons without going into mage territory / specter / staff (kind of) / focus / etc.

    This comment is just my opinion.

    None of what you would rather them work on will happen regardless, so sure its an opinion but honestly I doubt we will get much of anything period. This expansion will more than likely be more of the same and Im beginning to think the new specs will be weak on release due to fear of what might happen if they come out too strong. This whole balance discussion being thrown around to push back against content is laughable. The game has never, will never and currently isn't balanced any better than its ever been and it still has glaring issues yet to be resolved which I doubt ever will be resolved. You want sales? Welp you need something big. E-specs just don't cut the mustard when it comes to dragging in people unfamiliar with the game. (Clearly they've been doing something wrong given how, well everything has gone down over the years.)

    @Samug.6512 said:
    Nope. We have a full set. No need for more.

    mmk well then we have 2 elite specs, both cover niches. No need for more. How about they make the expansion all about gathering? No story. No pesky events, just gathering where you chill with people. Seems that is what everyone wants~

    And yes why I am being cynical, because it doesn't matter what people offer as potential ideas its just "no, no I want fishing. Or player housing despite the obvious reasons why neither would do much if anything for the game." I mean I really don't care anymore Im kinda over it, I know we won't get a new class or even a race or heck we might not even get E-specs. Kinda just want them to make guild wars 3 already~

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    You want sales? Welp you need something big. E-specs just don't cut the mustard when it comes to dragging in people unfamiliar with the game. (Clearly they've been doing something wrong given how, well everything has gone down over the years.)

    Kinda ironic that you shoot down the balance argument as laughable, then repeat the "new blood" argument in the next sentence. If there's a laughable argument here is that a new class will draw any attention to the game.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2020

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629 said:
    Nope it's too much work for not enough people to use it. I'd prefer they work on existing classes, their faults and making them better than adding a new class. Elite specs are really interesting and add alot to refreshing classes.

    I think Anet's time would be better spent fixing Revenant on a whole, Thief in High end PvE, Warrior in PvP , etc than building a new class to be shoehorned into the lore and the work to build core and 3 elite specs or worse core and 1 elite spec. Personally, I prefer them designing new weapons , armor , maps , legendaries , improving optimization, new features (gliding / mounts), more elite specs oh and WvW ... that needs some help too.

    I think them adding a new Race is just as unlikely and new weapons are a pipe dream but possible, especially as warrior is starting to really need more weapons without going into mage territory / specter / staff (kind of) / focus / etc.

    This comment is just my opinion.

    None of what you would rather them work on will happen regardless, so sure its an opinion but honestly I doubt we will get much of anything period. This expansion will more than likely be more of the same and Im beginning to think the new specs will be weak on release due to fear of what might happen if they come out too strong. This whole balance discussion being thrown around to push back against content is laughable.

    lmao... So people prefering especs (or other content/reworks for current professions) over a new class is a "laughable pushing back against content", but your answer here is... "none of what you would rather them work on will happen regardless". Seriously, after writing these 2 things back-to-back somehow you still didn't see the hypocrisy of those statements?
    I guess instead of saying what they prefer, people should tell you "what you want won't happen anyways", because somehow that's not a laughable pushing back against the content?

    You want sales? Welp you need something big. E-specs just don't cut the mustard when it comes to dragging in people unfamiliar with the game.

    Said who? You? Based on what exactly?
    Also I've answered to that on the previous page, but you've dodged it entirely, while now you decided to write pretty much the same thing again. So I'll answer the same thing again:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1217727/#Comment_1217727
    New class won't have any bigger "player bringing power" than new especs. If someone had no interest in the previous 9 professions with 18 especs on top of the all content gw2 has, then a new class won't suddeny change their mind. Your claim is based on nothing.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629 said:
    Nope it's too much work for not enough people to use it. I'd prefer they work on existing classes, their faults and making them better than adding a new class. Elite specs are really interesting and add alot to refreshing classes.

    I think Anet's time would be better spent fixing Revenant on a whole, Thief in High end PvE, Warrior in PvP , etc than building a new class to be shoehorned into the lore and the work to build core and 3 elite specs or worse core and 1 elite spec. Personally, I prefer them designing new weapons , armor , maps , legendaries , improving optimization, new features (gliding / mounts), more elite specs oh and WvW ... that needs some help too.

    I think them adding a new Race is just as unlikely and new weapons are a pipe dream but possible, especially as warrior is starting to really need more weapons without going into mage territory / specter / staff (kind of) / focus / etc.

    This comment is just my opinion.

    None of what you would rather them work on will happen regardless, so sure its an opinion but honestly I doubt we will get much of anything period. This expansion will more than likely be more of the same and Im beginning to think the new specs will be weak on release due to fear of what might happen if they come out too strong. This whole balance discussion being thrown around to push back against content is laughable.

    lmao... So people prefering especs (or other content/reworks for current professions) over a new class is a "laughable pushing back against content", but your answer here is... "none of what you would rather them work on will happen regardless". Seriously, after writing these 2 things back-to-back somehow you still didn't see the hypocrisy of those statements?
    I guess instead of saying what they prefer, people should tell you "what you want won't happen anyways", because somehow that's not a laughable pushing back against the content?

    You want sales? Welp you need something big. E-specs just don't cut the mustard when it comes to dragging in people unfamiliar with the game.

    Said who? You? Based on what exactly?
    Also I've answered to that on the previous page, but you've dodged it entirely, while now you decided to write pretty much the same thing again. So I'll answer the same thing again:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1217727/#Comment_1217727
    New class won't have any bigger "player bringing power" than new especs. If someone had no interest in the previous 9 professions with 18 especs on top of the all content gw2 has, then a new class won't suddeny change their mind. Your claim is based on nothing.

    Ill tell you this I've never once gotten into a game because of stuff an old class got. It was always what the new toys were and to me E-specs aren't truly new they are aspects a class couldn't cover before added ontop of their core. A new class is easier to balance because it itself is in a vacuum and can be seen as the issue, it will be targeted and pinpointed. The unforseen meshing of core and the E-spec and the potential builds (The dev's don't and never have theory-crafted they create the E-spec and the community creates the builds that end up making the "meta" or anything else...)

    I find it laughable that you people use balance, when you look at what people want done for the game? "I want X nerfed into an unusable mess because I myself can't beat it.." This has always been the argument no matter the game because unskilled players believe they understand that because they cant beat their face against a wall (The class that counters them) and win when the other person knows they class better then it mus be broken. So I dismiss this argument because so long as MMO-RPGS exist balance will be impossible due to skill vs kit, and skill vs skill. A skilled player can make ANYTHING look broken and a mediocre player can make ANYTHING look weak.

    And like I said they obviously failed at selling this game in a post-HoT world. Clearly with the layoffs and everything else they failed fundamentally at making this game thrive which seems to be an Issue NCsoft has in common with them. I mean blizzards games despite how kitten they might be or how broken and unwieldy they might come out have a huge following, they still sell. Guild wars 2 has been built on broken promises and outright lies, and people don't forget and even with a new team people will dismiss it just like other games...

    But there has to be a reason why the game itself isn't preforming as well as its peers? If you look at people complaining about the cadence of content and how they have once again, gone radio silent about their balance objectives for the competitive modes it speaks for itself. We are once again in the Classic A-net silent mode where you'd be damned lucky if they even glance at competitive. Tuesday we get the third of EIGHT living world episodes (this does not count in-between patches such as steel and fire, so eight fully-fledged living world updates.) Before the expansion is even a thing, given it has and like will take them a year to get through four releases? I believe its safe to say we have another year of living world before the expansion is even on the table for release. So another year of the same stuff we have now, because remember festivals will prevent living world launches. So we get one Tuesday but the only time I could see them adding another due to the festivals in the summer would be September. And that release would be the LAST major one of the year potentially, could also happen in November with a minor living world update like steel and fire coming in sep. Either way we are a LONG way off of getting E-specs.

    And yes, people prefer E-specs because everyone assumes its "too much work for A-net to handle." Well in my career field if something is too much work, they will find someone more qualified and willing to do the job and replace you? Like I find it laughable that game design is the one place, the one job where being lazy is a given and is tolerated by the people up above and the people consuming the product. Or maybe I just remember when games weren't filled with artifical walls and were made to be fun, you know made to be a game? When Expansions and DLC made you get excited; Not sit here and roll your eyes because its litterally just more of the tired failed formula that keeps being pushed. ESO has had two classes, both of which drew me to the game to try them out and play when I might not have had WoW only got me due to the demon hunter which was a new class. HoT brought me back for the Revenant and if not for that I might not ever of come back, I've been asking for them to fix rev and give it some more tools core and remove the nessecity of glint from the class so that Glint feels like an E-spec and not the finished product. They never once had even tried to do that, and I doubt they ever will.

    I want them to do what you want them to do, I want the same thing and I know a new class may never and more than likely never will come. This was a "I want this, I think it could be cool.." Post but everyone is taking it as I have some mysterious power to get A-net to do what I want, when they never once have done what I want and never once have given me one thing I truly desired from this game. I play it because I've been invested in tyria since it came into being; Because I enjoy the world not because I enjoy the particular method they use in showcasing said world in this particular game. Im sorry if it seemed like I was poo-pooing your wants or Ideas; But the things you listed are things I've wanted for some time.... I just realize we will be lucky if we get even half of what previous expansions gave us. (Which isn't a lot.)

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    You want sales? Welp you need something big. E-specs just don't cut the mustard when it comes to dragging in people unfamiliar with the game. (Clearly they've been doing something wrong given how, well everything has gone down over the years.)

    Kinda ironic that you shoot down the balance argument as laughable, then repeat the "new blood" argument in the next sentence. If there's a laughable argument here is that a new class will draw any attention to the game.

    Laughable that you clearly don't play many games, because Ill tell ya what. When a new class drops TONS of people flock to check it out especially if it is cool; Case and point we have a Chronomancer for Messmer yea? Coulda been its own class like it was meant to be in guild wars utopia. We could also get the summoner which is ALSO a class guild wars 1 would of had? There are tons of things they could do, and bring back into the game from the predecessor and make them work to fill a niche completely that we don't have.
    1. We lack a shapeshifter, norn can do it but honestly the forms suck and they look like poop. Could make a havroun class and have it be able to change into specific forms of their respective spirit, and make it more themed around the spirits. (Anyone can worship the spirits of the wild, so it wont break the lore.)
    2. The summoner could directly deal with the demons in the mists, or the Djiin and would have summons that they pull forth that do specific actions but do not stay like minions with a more occult kind of dark vibe.
    3. A bard as a class, rather than a spec so it could be flushed out.

    Making these and making them not need E-specs for their launch would be fine, then they would sure have less than the other classes when it comes to E-specs but the whole class would be competitive with anything the others have as well it would keep them from being power-crept up the butt. These three deserve to have a flushed out experience and not just be tacked onto an existing class that may, or may not be capable of fulfilling the fantasy/role properly.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629 said:
    Nope it's too much work for not enough people to use it. I'd prefer they work on existing classes, their faults and making them better than adding a new class. Elite specs are really interesting and add alot to refreshing classes.

    I think Anet's time would be better spent fixing Revenant on a whole, Thief in High end PvE, Warrior in PvP , etc than building a new class to be shoehorned into the lore and the work to build core and 3 elite specs or worse core and 1 elite spec. Personally, I prefer them designing new weapons , armor , maps , legendaries , improving optimization, new features (gliding / mounts), more elite specs oh and WvW ... that needs some help too.

    I think them adding a new Race is just as unlikely and new weapons are a pipe dream but possible, especially as warrior is starting to really need more weapons without going into mage territory / specter / staff (kind of) / focus / etc.

    This comment is just my opinion.

    None of what you would rather them work on will happen regardless, so sure its an opinion but honestly I doubt we will get much of anything period. This expansion will more than likely be more of the same and Im beginning to think the new specs will be weak on release due to fear of what might happen if they come out too strong. This whole balance discussion being thrown around to push back against content is laughable.

    lmao... So people prefering especs (or other content/reworks for current professions) over a new class is a "laughable pushing back against content", but your answer here is... "none of what you would rather them work on will happen regardless". Seriously, after writing these 2 things back-to-back somehow you still didn't see the hypocrisy of those statements?
    I guess instead of saying what they prefer, people should tell you "what you want won't happen anyways", because somehow that's not a laughable pushing back against the content?

    You want sales? Welp you need something big. E-specs just don't cut the mustard when it comes to dragging in people unfamiliar with the game.

    Said who? You? Based on what exactly?
    Also I've answered to that on the previous page, but you've dodged it entirely, while now you decided to write pretty much the same thing again. So I'll answer the same thing again:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1217727/#Comment_1217727
    New class won't have any bigger "player bringing power" than new especs. If someone had no interest in the previous 9 professions with 18 especs on top of the all content gw2 has, then a new class won't suddeny change their mind. Your claim is based on nothing.

    Ill tell you this I've never once gotten into a game because of stuff an old class got.

    Which game had the equivalent of especs added to them? I don't know any, so I'd gladly learn about some.

    It was always what the new toys were and to me E-specs aren't truly new they are aspects a class couldn't cover before added ontop of their core.

    If the class couldn't cover certain aspects or playstyle and especs fill those gaps, then how is this possbile you don't think they're anything new? I don't understand the logic here.

    A new class is easier to balance because it itself is in a vacuum and can be seen as the issue, it will be targeted and pinpointed. The unforseen meshing of core and the E-spec and the potential builds (The dev's don't and never have theory-crafted they create the E-spec and the community creates the builds that end up making the "meta" or anything else...)

    I'll just quote here what I've already wrote multiple times, I guess:
    I don't think there's much of what a new class would bring that new especs couldn't cover, so any interesting idea that they might have, I'd rather see as an espec for current class/es.

    Also pretty sure the issues with especs can be just as easly pinpointed and directly targeted, it's just that the updates and their scope/accuracy are what's lacking here imo. The release of a new class won't suddenly change the way things are balanced, because why would it?

    I find it laughable that you people use balance, when you look at what people want done for the game? "I want X nerfed into an unusable mess because I myself can't beat it.." This has always been the argument no matter the game because unskilled players believe they understand that because they cant beat their face against a wall (The class that counters them) and win when the other person knows they class better then it mus be broken. So I dismiss this argument because so long as MMO-RPGS exist balance will be impossible due to skill vs kit, and skill vs skill. A skilled player can make ANYTHING look broken and a mediocre player can make ANYTHING look weak.

    "You people"? Pretty sure the only context I've mentioned balance was when someone suggested and inter-class spec. Somehow you've picked a word "balance" out of the whole post without mention of anything else (be it the context I've said it within or the rest of the post about new class simply not being needed imo). You might need to go re-read it and then feel free to continue that "laughable" argument within the context of the messages in this thread instead of just sticking to a single word and pretending I just said "balance, so no".
    And what does the "player skill" or "complaining about the class being broken" has to do with what I said? Fairly sure it's nothing, so as much as it might be your justification for your little "hatered of balance as an argument", I don't see how any of it applies to me or this thread. Again, you might need to reread the thread instead of just clinging onto the "balance" word for some weird reason.

    And like I said they obviously failed at selling this game in a post-HoT world. Clearly with the layoffs and everything else they failed fundamentally at making this game thrive which seems to be an Issue NCsoft has in common with them. I mean blizzards games despite how kitten they might be or how broken and unwieldy they might come out have a huge following, they still sell. Guild wars 2 has been built on broken promises and outright lies, and people don't forget and even with a new team people will dismiss it just like other games...

    So... you think a new class will/can be a savior for the whole game and that's somehow isn't "laughable" for you? That's just an insane claim to make and I already wrote about it before (in the post I've linked right in the quote above btw), but you dodged it altogether. Now that you've forgotten about it (I assume?), you repeat the same thing. Just reread the thread instead.

    But there has to be a reason why the game itself isn't preforming as well as its peers? If you look at people complaining about the cadence of content and how they have once again, gone radio silent about their balance objectives for the competitive modes it speaks for itself. We are once again in the Classic A-net silent mode where you'd be damned lucky if they even glance at competitive. Tuesday we get the third of EIGHT living world episodes (this does not count in-between patches such as steel and fire, so eight fully-fledged living world updates.) Before the expansion is even a thing, given it has and like will take them a year to get through four releases? I believe its safe to say we have another year of living world before the expansion is even on the table for release. So another year of the same stuff we have now, because remember festivals will prevent living world launches. So we get one Tuesday but the only time I could see them adding another due to the festivals in the summer would be September. And that release would be the LAST major one of the year potentially, could also happen in November with a minor living world update like steel and fire coming in sep. Either way we are a LONG way off of getting E-specs.

    There's so many things that the players might like or dislike about a particular mmorpg (especially in one that doesn't blindly follows anything other mmorpgs already did/do) that we could write multiple books about it. But releasing another -10th- class won't magically turn the tides and bait tons of players into playing the game they didn't enjoy in the first place.
    If you think it will, then... uh... Honestly, how can you even think that? -feel free to explain
    If you don't think it will, then... Why trying to use it as an argument here?
    The facat remains that an addition class (when we already have 9 other) won't somehow save the game.

    I want them to do what you want them to do, I want the same thing and I know a new class may never and more than likely never will come. This was a "I want this, I think it could be cool.." Post but everyone is taking it as I have some mysterious power to get A-net to do what I want, when they never once have done what I want and never once have given me one thing I truly desired from this game. I play it because I've been invested in tyria since it came into being; Because I enjoy the world not because I enjoy the particular method they use in showcasing said world in this particular game. Im sorry if it seemed like I was poo-pooing your wants or Ideas; But the things you listed are things I've wanted for some time.... I just realize we will be lucky if we get even half of what previous expansions gave us. (Which isn't a lot.)

    Nobody thinks you have some mysterious power. People -including me- share their opinions just like you share yours.

  • @Sobx.1758 Honest IDK what @Thornwolf.9721 talking about in WoW Fury warrior's redesign (going from dual weilding 2 1handed weapons to 2 2handed weapons) brought me back to the game. FFXIV redesign and retooling of the monk got me to do back to them game. Elite specializations in GW2 is akin to getting 10+ lvls + some new skills in more traditional MMOs, the only difference is you dont have to regrind gear and can enjoy the story.

  • TheLadyOfTheRings.9148TheLadyOfTheRings.9148 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2020

    I wouldn't mind new professions, perhaps one per armor type (1 heavy, 1 medium, 1 light). It's actually fun to imagine new professions and what ANet could come up with.

    I think there's still space for new professions to happen, whether it's on the table or not. Maybe they could come with a Living World before a new expansion. Either they would have 2 elite specs each and function just like the others, or these new professions would work differently instead. They wouldn't necessarily fit the lore 100% (just like the Revenant didn't).

    In my opinion: I think we'll see a lot of innovation from ANet in the future, and perhaps professions won't work the same way forever. But only time will tell ^-^

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 25, 2020

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629 said:
    Nope it's too much work for not enough people to use it. I'd prefer they work on existing classes, their faults and making them better than adding a new class. Elite specs are really interesting and add alot to refreshing classes.

    I think Anet's time would be better spent fixing Revenant on a whole, Thief in High end PvE, Warrior in PvP , etc than building a new class to be shoehorned into the lore and the work to build core and 3 elite specs or worse core and 1 elite spec. Personally, I prefer them designing new weapons , armor , maps , legendaries , improving optimization, new features (gliding / mounts), more elite specs oh and WvW ... that needs some help too.

    I think them adding a new Race is just as unlikely and new weapons are a pipe dream but possible, especially as warrior is starting to really need more weapons without going into mage territory / specter / staff (kind of) / focus / etc.

    This comment is just my opinion.

    None of what you would rather them work on will happen regardless, so sure its an opinion but honestly I doubt we will get much of anything period. This expansion will more than likely be more of the same and Im beginning to think the new specs will be weak on release due to fear of what might happen if they come out too strong. This whole balance discussion being thrown around to push back against content is laughable.

    lmao... So people prefering especs (or other content/reworks for current professions) over a new class is a "laughable pushing back against content", but your answer here is... "none of what you would rather them work on will happen regardless". Seriously, after writing these 2 things back-to-back somehow you still didn't see the hypocrisy of those statements?
    I guess instead of saying what they prefer, people should tell you "what you want won't happen anyways", because somehow that's not a laughable pushing back against the content?

    You want sales? Welp you need something big. E-specs just don't cut the mustard when it comes to dragging in people unfamiliar with the game.

    Said who? You? Based on what exactly?
    Also I've answered to that on the previous page, but you've dodged it entirely, while now you decided to write pretty much the same thing again. So I'll answer the same thing again:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1217727/#Comment_1217727
    New class won't have any bigger "player bringing power" than new especs. If someone had no interest in the previous 9 professions with 18 especs on top of the all content gw2 has, then a new class won't suddeny change their mind. Your claim is based on nothing.

    Ill tell you this I've never once gotten into a game because of stuff an old class got.

    Which game had the equivalent of especs added to them? I don't know any, so I'd gladly learn about some.

    It was always what the new toys were and to me E-specs aren't truly new they are aspects a class couldn't cover before added ontop of their core.

    If the class couldn't cover certain aspects or playstyle and especs fill those gaps, then how is this possbile you don't think they're anything new? I don't understand the logic here.

    A new class is easier to balance because it itself is in a vacuum and can be seen as the issue, it will be targeted and pinpointed. The unforseen meshing of core and the E-spec and the potential builds (The dev's don't and never have theory-crafted they create the E-spec and the community creates the builds that end up making the "meta" or anything else...)

    I'll just quote here what I've already wrote multiple times, I guess:
    I don't think there's much of what a new class would bring that new especs couldn't cover, so any interesting idea that they might have, I'd rather see as an espec for current class/es.

    Also pretty sure the issues with especs can be just as easly pinpointed and directly targeted, it's just that the updates and their scope/accuracy are what's lacking here imo. The release of a new class won't suddenly change the way things are balanced, because why would it?

    I find it laughable that you people use balance, when you look at what people want done for the game? "I want X nerfed into an unusable mess because I myself can't beat it.." This has always been the argument no matter the game because unskilled players believe they understand that because they cant beat their face against a wall (The class that counters them) and win when the other person knows they class better then it mus be broken. So I dismiss this argument because so long as MMO-RPGS exist balance will be impossible due to skill vs kit, and skill vs skill. A skilled player can make ANYTHING look broken and a mediocre player can make ANYTHING look weak.

    "You people"? Pretty sure the only context I've mentioned balance was when someone suggested and inter-class spec. Somehow you've picked a word "balance" out of the whole post without mention of anything else (be it the context I've said it within or the rest of the post about new class simply not being needed imo). You might need to go re-read it and then feel free to continue that "laughable" argument within the context of the messages in this thread instead of just sticking to a single word and pretending I just said "balance, so no".
    And what does the "player skill" or "complaining about the class being broken" has to do with what I said? Fairly sure it's nothing, so as much as it might be your justification for your little "hatered of balance as an argument", I don't see how any of it applies to me or this thread. Again, you might need to reread the thread instead of just clinging onto the "balance" word for some weird reason.

    And like I said they obviously failed at selling this game in a post-HoT world. Clearly with the layoffs and everything else they failed fundamentally at making this game thrive which seems to be an Issue NCsoft has in common with them. I mean blizzards games despite how kitten they might be or how broken and unwieldy they might come out have a huge following, they still sell. Guild wars 2 has been built on broken promises and outright lies, and people don't forget and even with a new team people will dismiss it just like other games...

    So... you think a new class will/can be a savior for the whole game and that's somehow isn't "laughable" for you? That's just an insane claim to make and I already wrote about it before (in the post I've linked right in the quote above btw), but you dodged it altogether. Now that you've forgotten about it (I assume?), you repeat the same thing. Just reread the thread instead.

    But there has to be a reason why the game itself isn't preforming as well as its peers? If you look at people complaining about the cadence of content and how they have once again, gone radio silent about their balance objectives for the competitive modes it speaks for itself. We are once again in the Classic A-net silent mode where you'd be damned lucky if they even glance at competitive. Tuesday we get the third of EIGHT living world episodes (this does not count in-between patches such as steel and fire, so eight fully-fledged living world updates.) Before the expansion is even a thing, given it has and like will take them a year to get through four releases? I believe its safe to say we have another year of living world before the expansion is even on the table for release. So another year of the same stuff we have now, because remember festivals will prevent living world launches. So we get one Tuesday but the only time I could see them adding another due to the festivals in the summer would be September. And that release would be the LAST major one of the year potentially, could also happen in November with a minor living world update like steel and fire coming in sep. Either way we are a LONG way off of getting E-specs.

    There's so many things that the players might like or dislike about a particular mmorpg (especially in one that doesn't blindly follows anything other mmorpgs already did/do) that we could write multiple books about it. But releasing another -10th- class won't magically turn the tides and bait tons of players into playing the game they didn't enjoy in the first place.
    If you think it will, then... uh... Honestly, how can you even think that? -feel free to explain
    If you don't think it will, then... Why trying to use it as an argument here?
    The facat remains that an addition class (when we already have 9 other) won't somehow save the game.

    I want them to do what you want them to do, I want the same thing and I know a new class may never and more than likely never will come. This was a "I want this, I think it could be cool.." Post but everyone is taking it as I have some mysterious power to get A-net to do what I want, when they never once have done what I want and never once have given me one thing I truly desired from this game. I play it because I've been invested in tyria since it came into being; Because I enjoy the world not because I enjoy the particular method they use in showcasing said world in this particular game. Im sorry if it seemed like I was poo-pooing your wants or Ideas; But the things you listed are things I've wanted for some time.... I just realize we will be lucky if we get even half of what previous expansions gave us. (Which isn't a lot.)

    Nobody thinks you have some mysterious power. People -including me- share their opinions just like you share yours.

    So because we will never come to an understanding (Perhaps on this particular topic) Ill just throw out fact and logic. ESO has grown and we have not, Final fantasy has grown and we have not. BDO has grown ALOT and I mean I just picked up that game to go see how its doing, and there is always stuff going on everywhere I go on every server I go on. In guild wars 2 particularly the game is stagnant in direction, it has no appeal to new players because honestly what we get most of the time (On articles and other sources talking about the game) We get "That game is still going?" People believe this is over. And it might be who knows, so far their expansions haven't impressed many people it seems like and I've been here for both of them. HoT was the better of the two by far, PoF was garbo and honestly I didn't like it at all but the Living worlds story content was so much better. E-specs have never really been gripping to me, some hit the park of "yea ill play that" others haven't, but the friends I have who I've tried to get into the game laugh and shrug me off. Most of them are coming from the theme of the proffesions, and most are coming off and this is word for word what they gave me. "E-specs to me just seem like rehashed stuff from other classes, given to a class that doesn't have it. Eventually they will run out of things to borrow or ideas to borrow and will come to a point where any class can and will feel the same. I don't want to join a game like that, because that to me speaks volumes about its developers and its future of which it will have none worth following."

    It doesn't help that the expansions (Going on PoF) are small and the mastery system is getting old, especially considering MOST of those masteries end up region locked strictly to that location. E-specs are only fun for the first while until they either nerf the dang thing into the ground, because they released it in a knowingly broken state to sell the kitten pack OR they simply released something that was NOT good and does NOT feel good to play. The specs are limited in scope and what they can accomplish in theme and nature, they MUST follow the theme of the class. As they've said warrior will never use magic, not akin to guardian because then it would be too much like guardian therefor they need more physical reliant or existential based power sources. Spellbreaker is a prime example, it uses the art of counter play by using meditations and as such aren't using magic. But they are indeed running out of weapons they can use logically, staff as a melee is all we have unless they decide to bring spear onland or trident (Wont happen they said no new weapons..) So something has to give here. Melee monk is logical but what about AFTER that? What about next time or even further, what happens when there is no wiggle room for the classes to get unique things and it truly becomes a "Lets just put this here" scenario? Welp that is when the game has no room, at least on spec design to go.

    Now a new class? It can cover a whole new theme and CREATE a new form of play based on that theme, and focus on that theme. Some people want a warlock like character and necromancer does not fill that niche as its focused around death magic and shroud. But what if we had a class that could harness demonic magic and not "like revenant can" but more like they bring forth a demon. Channeling a demon and then becoming a demon are two seperate things, and we know there are multiple types of demons in this universe so its untapped potential (Realm of torment, heavy focus. Could have some throw backs too that part of the game?) This class could be primarily a LONG range caster who has the range to compete with ranger. And could be unique maybe, a heavy armored casting proffesion who breaks the mold of clothies being our traditional casters.

    What about a shapeshifter? A spec can't do that justice. You can't have big ol'werebeasts be a spec because for one that would be far too much work for some spec on a class that it might not work well on. But now if you make a Havroun class? Wham. New niche and playstyle, and could break the light armors from being the "not" warrior like classes?

    For medium armor we could get some form of the paragon as we know it exists, we see it in the living story and the order is strong. Heck they AREN'T spellbreakers as they use their own form of combat and as such could be flushed into a new class? So could ritualist, who could be our support class like a true from the ground up support summoner who is built around team-play. Dervish could come back and be all about being a fast, two-handed fighter who is based around mysticism as they too exist and are not playable. There are ways to make it work~ And there are arguments for both, and both can work and both could be seen as potential ways forward.

    TL;DR I feel like we are running out of room for them to make cool, innovative and compelling specs based on some classes having too many weapons to choose from and some having too few. (Think warrior for too many, and think engineer or Rev for too few.) Some classes could use more weapons base rather than locking them behind specs, and some core classes would be better off being spruced up rather than being tacked onto. And a New class avoids all of that, builds hype AND as shown by HoT can be featured in a trailer TO BUILD HYPE AND SELL COPIES WHICH THEN MAKES MORE MONEY. E-specs ... well they don't seem to be as suited to that task... outside of our community that is. (Im still excited to potentially get a norn themed E-spec somewhere.... doesn't mean I can't acknowledge how limited in scope a spec over a class may be.)

    I never meant to sound condescending not that you said I was, but Strictly speaking im tired of arguing about a game. And frankly Im tired of seeing ideas not just my own get shot down DESPITE how good they sound. I want the game to succeed and other games, right now seem to be doing better than we are. (Seem more populated and busy) Most of which have had new classes... and larger updates then we have.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 25, 2020

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629 said:
    Nope it's too much work for not enough people to use it. I'd prefer they work on existing classes, their faults and making them better than adding a new class. Elite specs are really interesting and add alot to refreshing classes.

    I think Anet's time would be better spent fixing Revenant on a whole, Thief in High end PvE, Warrior in PvP , etc than building a new class to be shoehorned into the lore and the work to build core and 3 elite specs or worse core and 1 elite spec. Personally, I prefer them designing new weapons , armor , maps , legendaries , improving optimization, new features (gliding / mounts), more elite specs oh and WvW ... that needs some help too.

    I think them adding a new Race is just as unlikely and new weapons are a pipe dream but possible, especially as warrior is starting to really need more weapons without going into mage territory / specter / staff (kind of) / focus / etc.

    This comment is just my opinion.

    None of what you would rather them work on will happen regardless, so sure its an opinion but honestly I doubt we will get much of anything period. This expansion will more than likely be more of the same and Im beginning to think the new specs will be weak on release due to fear of what might happen if they come out too strong. This whole balance discussion being thrown around to push back against content is laughable.

    lmao... So people prefering especs (or other content/reworks for current professions) over a new class is a "laughable pushing back against content", but your answer here is... "none of what you would rather them work on will happen regardless". Seriously, after writing these 2 things back-to-back somehow you still didn't see the hypocrisy of those statements?
    I guess instead of saying what they prefer, people should tell you "what you want won't happen anyways", because somehow that's not a laughable pushing back against the content?

    You want sales? Welp you need something big. E-specs just don't cut the mustard when it comes to dragging in people unfamiliar with the game.

    Said who? You? Based on what exactly?
    Also I've answered to that on the previous page, but you've dodged it entirely, while now you decided to write pretty much the same thing again. So I'll answer the same thing again:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1217727/#Comment_1217727
    New class won't have any bigger "player bringing power" than new especs. If someone had no interest in the previous 9 professions with 18 especs on top of the all content gw2 has, then a new class won't suddeny change their mind. Your claim is based on nothing.

    Ill tell you this I've never once gotten into a game because of stuff an old class got.

    Which game had the equivalent of especs added to them? I don't know any, so I'd gladly learn about some.

    It was always what the new toys were and to me E-specs aren't truly new they are aspects a class couldn't cover before added ontop of their core.

    If the class couldn't cover certain aspects or playstyle and especs fill those gaps, then how is this possbile you don't think they're anything new? I don't understand the logic here.

    A new class is easier to balance because it itself is in a vacuum and can be seen as the issue, it will be targeted and pinpointed. The unforseen meshing of core and the E-spec and the potential builds (The dev's don't and never have theory-crafted they create the E-spec and the community creates the builds that end up making the "meta" or anything else...)

    I'll just quote here what I've already wrote multiple times, I guess:
    I don't think there's much of what a new class would bring that new especs couldn't cover, so any interesting idea that they might have, I'd rather see as an espec for current class/es.

    Also pretty sure the issues with especs can be just as easly pinpointed and directly targeted, it's just that the updates and their scope/accuracy are what's lacking here imo. The release of a new class won't suddenly change the way things are balanced, because why would it?

    I find it laughable that you people use balance, when you look at what people want done for the game? "I want X nerfed into an unusable mess because I myself can't beat it.." This has always been the argument no matter the game because unskilled players believe they understand that because they cant beat their face against a wall (The class that counters them) and win when the other person knows they class better then it mus be broken. So I dismiss this argument because so long as MMO-RPGS exist balance will be impossible due to skill vs kit, and skill vs skill. A skilled player can make ANYTHING look broken and a mediocre player can make ANYTHING look weak.

    "You people"? Pretty sure the only context I've mentioned balance was when someone suggested and inter-class spec. Somehow you've picked a word "balance" out of the whole post without mention of anything else (be it the context I've said it within or the rest of the post about new class simply not being needed imo). You might need to go re-read it and then feel free to continue that "laughable" argument within the context of the messages in this thread instead of just sticking to a single word and pretending I just said "balance, so no".
    And what does the "player skill" or "complaining about the class being broken" has to do with what I said? Fairly sure it's nothing, so as much as it might be your justification for your little "hatered of balance as an argument", I don't see how any of it applies to me or this thread. Again, you might need to reread the thread instead of just clinging onto the "balance" word for some weird reason.

    And like I said they obviously failed at selling this game in a post-HoT world. Clearly with the layoffs and everything else they failed fundamentally at making this game thrive which seems to be an Issue NCsoft has in common with them. I mean blizzards games despite how kitten they might be or how broken and unwieldy they might come out have a huge following, they still sell. Guild wars 2 has been built on broken promises and outright lies, and people don't forget and even with a new team people will dismiss it just like other games...

    So... you think a new class will/can be a savior for the whole game and that's somehow isn't "laughable" for you? That's just an insane claim to make and I already wrote about it before (in the post I've linked right in the quote above btw), but you dodged it altogether. Now that you've forgotten about it (I assume?), you repeat the same thing. Just reread the thread instead.

    But there has to be a reason why the game itself isn't preforming as well as its peers? If you look at people complaining about the cadence of content and how they have once again, gone radio silent about their balance objectives for the competitive modes it speaks for itself. We are once again in the Classic A-net silent mode where you'd be damned lucky if they even glance at competitive. Tuesday we get the third of EIGHT living world episodes (this does not count in-between patches such as steel and fire, so eight fully-fledged living world updates.) Before the expansion is even a thing, given it has and like will take them a year to get through four releases? I believe its safe to say we have another year of living world before the expansion is even on the table for release. So another year of the same stuff we have now, because remember festivals will prevent living world launches. So we get one Tuesday but the only time I could see them adding another due to the festivals in the summer would be September. And that release would be the LAST major one of the year potentially, could also happen in November with a minor living world update like steel and fire coming in sep. Either way we are a LONG way off of getting E-specs.

    There's so many things that the players might like or dislike about a particular mmorpg (especially in one that doesn't blindly follows anything other mmorpgs already did/do) that we could write multiple books about it. But releasing another -10th- class won't magically turn the tides and bait tons of players into playing the game they didn't enjoy in the first place.
    If you think it will, then... uh... Honestly, how can you even think that? -feel free to explain
    If you don't think it will, then... Why trying to use it as an argument here?
    The facat remains that an addition class (when we already have 9 other) won't somehow save the game.

    I want them to do what you want them to do, I want the same thing and I know a new class may never and more than likely never will come. This was a "I want this, I think it could be cool.." Post but everyone is taking it as I have some mysterious power to get A-net to do what I want, when they never once have done what I want and never once have given me one thing I truly desired from this game. I play it because I've been invested in tyria since it came into being; Because I enjoy the world not because I enjoy the particular method they use in showcasing said world in this particular game. Im sorry if it seemed like I was poo-pooing your wants or Ideas; But the things you listed are things I've wanted for some time.... I just realize we will be lucky if we get even half of what previous expansions gave us. (Which isn't a lot.)

    Nobody thinks you have some mysterious power. People -including me- share their opinions just like you share yours.

    So because we will never come to an understanding (Perhaps on this particular topic) Ill just throw out fact and logic.

    ????

    Maybe instead of repeatedly taking some weird "hot takes" while "throwing out logic" (why?), you could start answering to what I write.
    How can you use "we'll never come to an understanding" as any kind of justification when you just keep dodging what I write? We won't come to an understanding, because you're not willing to have any discussion in the first place, but then "throw out the logic" to make another set of statements. How does it make any sense at all?

    ESO has grown and we have not, Final fantasy has grown and we have not. BDO has grown ALOT and I mean I just picked up that game to go see how its doing, and there is always stuff going on everywhere I go on every server I go on.

    I'm sure all due to a new class.
    Oh wait, no. So how is this relevant in this thread?

    In guild wars 2 particularly the game is stagnant in direction,

    IF that's true, then a new class won't magically change that. And I hope we can easly agree that's a fact.

    it has no appeal to new players because honestly what we get most of the time (On articles and other sources talking about the game) We get "That game is still going?" People believe this is over.

    Where exactly are you getting these informations from? Share the source/stats.
    (also I already answered to that in one of the previous posts, right?)

    And it might be who knows, so far their expansions haven't impressed many people it seems like

    People keep asking for another expansion, saying that expansions haven't impressed many people seems like a blatant lie to me.

    Also, again, "a potential new class" has nothing to do with that and won't magically make the expansions better. How is this relevant here?

    Now a new class? It can cover a whole new theme and CREATE a new form of play based on that theme, and focus on that theme. Some people want a warlock like character and necromancer does not fill that niche as its focused around death magic and shroud. But what if we had a class that could harness demonic magic and not "like revenant can" but more like they bring forth a demon. Channeling a demon and then becoming a demon are two seperate things, and we know there are multiple types of demons in this universe so its untapped potential (Realm of torment, heavy focus. Could have some throw backs too that part of the game?) This class could be primarily a LONG range caster who has the range to compete with ranger. And could be unique maybe, a heavy armored casting proffesion who breaks the mold of clothies being our traditional casters.

    What do you exactly think "warlock" is? It could easly be made into any light armor espec.

    What about a shapeshifter? A spec can't do that justice. You can't have big ol'werebeasts be a spec because for one that would be far too much work for some spec on a class that it might not work well on. But now if you make a Havroun class? Wham. New niche and playstyle, and could break the light armors from being the "not" warrior like classes?

    I'm not sure why ele, ranger, mesmer or maybe even rev couldn't become shapeshifters. And you think espec would be "too much work", but making a new class would be less work?
    Also this is what you wrote in this thread:
    "And yes, people prefer E-specs because everyone assumes its "too much work for A-net to handle." Well in my career field if something is too much work, they will find someone more qualified and willing to do the job and replace you?"

    You say one thing and then contradict yourself freely solely based on which case would support your preferences. Again, I don't see how that makes any sense.

    For medium armor we could get some form of the paragon as we know it exists, we see it in the living story and the order is strong. Heck they AREN'T spellbreakers as they use their own form of combat and as such could be flushed into a new class? So could ritualist, who could be our support class like a true from the ground up support summoner who is built around team-play. Dervish could come back and be all about being a fast, two-handed fighter who is based around mysticism as they too exist and are not playable. There are ways to make it work~ And there are arguments for both, and both can work and both could be seen as potential ways forward.

    Guardian has the paragon title, so... doubt. And people proposed paragon/dervish as especs for quite some time now. Suddenly none of them would fit as especs, because... Um... I guess because you randomly decided so.

    TL;DR I feel like we are running out of room for them to make cool, innovative and compelling specs based on some classes having too many weapons to choose from and some having too few.

    Anet can make any weapon into whatever they want it to be.
    Greatsword for necro melee? np.
    Greatsword for mesmer as ranged laz0r generator? np.
    Weapon is just a skin, what it does is entirely left to devs' imagination, so I wouldn't say we're "running out of cool" or weapons themselves.

    (Think warrior for too many, and think engineer or Rev for too few.) Some classes could use more weapons base rather than locking them behind specs, and some core classes would be better off being spruced up rather than being tacked onto.

    That's only if you assume every class is the same, which they aren't.

    And a New class avoids all of that, builds hype AND as shown by HoT can be featured in a trailer TO BUILD HYPE AND SELL COPIES WHICH THEN MAKES MORE MONEY. E-specs ... well they don't seem to be as suited to that task... outside of our community that is.

    I already wrote about it. And then -if I remember correctly?- told you that I wrote about it before. So now it's probably at least 3rd time I'm writing this: a new class doesn't bring any more hype than 9 new especs. Feel free to reread the thread and finally answer to anything I wrote.