Siren (Elite spec concept)

In terms of directions that the next elite specs could go we have some definitive ideas that each profession could build on. And one such concept is sound for the mesmer. In terms of mind magic we understand that there are many different ways to warp a person's perspective of the world around them. warping their vision. Warping their perception of time. Using smells to trigger emotions and feelings. But the one I want to discuss for the mesmer's design is Sound. I feel that most people here are familiar with the concept of music being able to invoke a specific feeling in people based on tone and pitch. But are you aware that it goes much deeper than that? Well, sound doesn't have to be music to invoke an emotional response from people. And in some cases the vibrations of sounds can cause a person to hallucinate. And this is what I'd like to discuss on the theme of this elite spec. The use of sound to invoke negative emotions in your foes.

Not your Bard:Lets get this out of the way right off the bat because there will be people who'll comment that they don't want a support elite spec when we have Chronomancer. Well, I agree. That's why Siren is not a support spec. It does absolutely nothing to support allies. All of its abilities are debuffs and damage based. This isn't a bard. This is a Siren.

New Mechanic: SongsThe primary identity of the mesmer that I enjoyed from GW1 was its ability to apply hexes to foes to manipulate their actions. This is something that sorta came back in GW2, but not quite with the same feel. Phantasms were supposed to invoke the feeling of hexes so with this elite specialization, they will do just that. Each of their shatter skills will be replaced with 4 songs. These songs will cause your phantasms to stop in place and to begin playing the tune of the song, causing an aoe field which causes aoe debuff to impact foes in the area which lasts a few seconds. It can be stopped if the phantasms are killed. These songs will shatter all clones while Phantasms will remain after the song has complete. Each clone will increase the impact of the songs while each phantasm increases its radius. Only one song can be playing at a time.

• Empathy: Shatter your clones and your phantasms begin to play the song of empathy. Foes who attack while the song is playing takes physical damage. This damage can critical.
• Dreams: Shatter your clones and your phantasms begin to play the song of dreams. When a foe would suffer a condition each other foe suffers that same condition. A copied condition can't spread. Only 1 stack of any condition can be copied. Confuses foes.
• Alluring:Shatter your clones and your phantasms begin to play the song of alluring. Interrupt your foes and for the duration of this song foes are taunted to one of the phantasms.
• Vertigo: Shatter your clones and your phantasms begin to play the song of Vertigo. Foes are Dazed and a boon is converted into a condition each second.

The general idea of the songs is to have an aoe impact on the field that don't last very long but are quire impactful. They would be changed through Traits Such as Fragility which would cause physical damage each time a foe would suffer a condition while a song was playing. Which could lead a rise to an interesting hybrid build. Although this elite spec would primarily be physical damage it would have a minor hybrid option. The sacrifice of Distortion is a pretty major one, however this is an offensive spec.

Clones and PhantasmsNow one question you might be asking is "Okay, the Phantasms don't shatter when you use one of the songs but what happens if the target dies? all this is ruined!" And you'd be correct. However the difference is that Phantasms will no longer be linked to a target. Phantasm's mechanic is changed to be unbound and they'll target who over you are attacking at the time. They'll still have timing restrictions that they normally have but no be bound by the life of the target. If your current target dies the Phantasms will not shatter. Your clones will however, as they are still bound by the same rules as before.With that said, Because they are free to move on their own they will have a life span. Eventually they will automatically shatter after a fixed period of time. That duration is yet to be decided. In addition to that you'll no longer be able to maintain 3 phantasms at a time but be limited to 2. However you'll also be able to have 2 clones out as well. Giving a total of 4 illusions. This might make a few traits a bit better and others worse considering that phantasms playing a song will count as shattering.

Utility: EchoOf the flavor that I desired for this elite spec, the Echo skill type from GW1 seemed to be the best fit. Since their impact could further modify the shouts of the paragon back in GW1 I feel that these could do the same for the songs on the Siren. As for what echos? Not sure yet, this elite spec is a work in progress.

WeaponWarhorn fits the best in this spec however that isn't to say something else couldn't work. In mythology they're often depicted with a Harp or some other instrument and their design is often that of a bird almost like harpy or mermaid. With that in mind we could go in one of two directions. Either a Longbow as their weapon or perhaps a Trident. The trident is a fairly odd choice since we've never had an underwater weapon above land but the design could fit the theme. As for Longbow it'd be pushing more that harpy design of it but could be a fan favorite. There isn't a perfect solution to the weapon, but if they get a weapon it would have to be one that can summon a phantasm.

All and all. This is just a concept of an elite spec I've been stewing around in my head. The idea of using sound and recapturing some of that hex like game play I loved in Guild wars 1 is something i'd be interested in. Without those hexes being nearly impossible to deal with aspect without a monk. And the player base of the mesmer community has wanted an elite spec that allowed their illusions to persist in the world after their target dies. Which I'm right there with you. Mesmer is one of my favorite professions. So lets hear what you guys think. Do you like this concept? What would you want to change? have anything to add?

Tbh underwater trident auto attack would be perfect fit - and even transposing Trident onto land. Yeah I agree that either Trident or a Bow would be nice for this elite spec idea.

Cool design I would love to see a bow on something like this. Might be a bit silly or cheesy but what if part of the animation was the bow having a bunch of illusionary strings with the fire animation being notes? (unless this conflicts with legendaries? but at worst which could change the colour of the notes?)

Something like this would need at least a weapon that had some decent re-positioning akin to thief short bow, and possibly carrying your phantasms with you.I make this claim based on the abundance of cleave in PvP/wvw and how the entire shatter mechanic relies on having semi-permanent illusions active, and sometimes going stationary.

@Daishi.6027 said:Cool design I would love to see a bow on something like this. Might be a bit silly or cheesy but what if part of the animation was the bow having a bunch of illusionary strings with the fire animation being notes? (unless this conflicts with legendaries? but at worst which could change the colour of the notes?)

Something like this would need at least a weapon that had some decent re-positioning akin to thief short bow, and possibly carrying your phantasms with you.I make this claim based on the abundance of cleave in PvP/wvw and how the entire shatter mechanic relies on having semi-permanent illusions active, and sometimes going stationary.

My god that's a brilliant idea! :o

Just like trident auto fires off notes on a stave, the bowstring could vibrate to create a stave in a kind of beam with notes moving along it.

Only issue I suppose is we already have a ranged beam weapon in GS, so it wouldn't be a new niche (unlike say a melee 2H weapon which we could do with).

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Daishi.6027 said:Cool design I would love to see a bow on something like this.

Might be a bit silly or cheesy but what if part of the animation was the bow having a bunch of illusionary strings with the fire animation being notes?

(unless this conflicts with legendaries? but at worst which could change the colour of the notes?)

Something like this would need at least a weapon that had some decent re-positioning akin to thief short bow, and possibly carrying your phantasms with you.I make this claim based on the abundance of cleave in PvP/wvw and how the entire shatter mechanic relies on having semi-permanent illusions active, and sometimes going stationary.

As long as it has a different feel and different use it could still work. A second ranged weapon that's only 900 range rather than the 1,200 range that greatsword has and is more controlling and debuffing could give it a place. So roots, CC or something along those lines. As long as it has a clear purpose they both could fit into a power slot.

A cc weapon on a cc spec would be very nice - as this does seem to be a controlling spec.

Vertigo should be something else. The other three fit their respective shatter themes (Mind Wrack is power-based damage, Empathy is power-based; Cry of Frustration is condi-based, Dreams is condi-based; Distraction is interrupt-based, Alluring is interrupt-based; Distortion is defense-based, Vertigo is interrupt-based). It can stay selfish-y and damage/interrupt based all it wants but it at least needs SOME emergency button. Maybe change the name of Vertigo to Cacophony and grant areal Distortion? Or 50% invulnerability (.5 sec of invuln per pulse, that fits the definition of cacophony affecting an enemy's attacks by missing due to harsh sounds).

Looks good, I too created an elite spec (The Charmer) that was purely damage since Mesmer doesn’t need anymore utility or support’y like specs.

I WAS sketching out ideas for a Siren spec for the Mesmer but didn’t bother to pursue since I still couldn’t grasp the concept and think of the skills, utilities AND traits that blended well with the Mesmers mechanic.

I am however liking the themes you gave for the F1-4 and would definitely keep that. I know you’re still looking to polish this all so hope to check back to a more updated version.

One idea that I did have when I was writing up a Siren Spec was that for the Elite skill, the siren would get 1 or 2 Elites that you could choose from OR 1 elite but gives you 1 of 2 conjured weapons. A illusionary harp with supportive skills and a illusionary trident with devastating offensive abilities.

Overall, I like the sound of it so far.

I don't know how I feel about utility skills that do nothing but modify our new shatters. That doesn't mesh with core mesmer very well. I also think you missed a great opportunity to give shouts to mesmer as the new skill category. Just like how FB mantras are different from mesmer mantras, Siren's shouts could be different from other class' shouts. Maybe have a more lasting effect, similar to the songs, or maybe its that if you use a shout inside of a song it has an increased/new effect.

I love it! I've always wanted to see something music/sound-oriented added to the Mesmer profession and this would be a dream come true!

@Abelisk.4527 said:Vertigo should be something else. The other three fit their respective shatter themes (Mind Wrack is power-based damage, Empathy is power-based; Cry of Frustration is condi-based, Dreams is condi-based; Distraction is interrupt-based, Alluring is interrupt-based; Distortion is defense-based, Vertigo is interrupt-based). It can stay selfish-y and damage/interrupt based all it wants but it at least needs SOME emergency button. Maybe change the name of Vertigo to Cacophony and grant areal Distortion? Or 50% invulnerability (.5 sec of invuln per pulse, that fits the definition of cacophony affecting an enemy's attacks by missing due to harsh sounds).

The fourth one was a difficult one to decided since I didn't want to make it identical to Distortion. I'm more than willing to listen to alternatives though. As I said, this is a work in progress.

@OriOri.8724 said:I don't know how I feel about utility skills that do nothing but modify our new shatters. That doesn't mesh with core mesmer very well. I also think you missed a great opportunity to give shouts to mesmer as the new skill category. Just like how FB mantras are different from mesmer mantras, Siren's shouts could be different from other class' shouts. Maybe have a more lasting effect, similar to the songs, or maybe its that if you use a shout inside of a song it has an increased/new effect.

Shouts are not off the table.

First off, quite a creative approach with quite some effort. Personally I'd much prefer a power damage elite or something along the lines of a damage elite which is less reliant on clones, but that's just me.

Some issues though which I see with this idea:

- what game mode is the target audience?:-- Phantasms don't work for wvw no matter what they do (unless made immune or something similar). We would have to approach Scourge level of utility, and we all know where that is going to end after the next rebalance (plus Scourge provides a massive amount of offence and defence currently)

-- Pve I don't see this build bringing significant damage if the phantasms are dedicated to debuffs and/or the debuffs would have to be insanely strong to warrant a spot in raids, fractals I doubt it will be workable at all

-- spvp might work depending on how well phantasms affect other players and how much defence the mesmer retains

- 4 illusions are nice, but somehow I feel this is just added fluff for the sake of added fluff.-- what's the benefit of 2 clones? without mirage traits they are useless. Please don't say: for deception.-- I like the 2 phantasms approach. You are sidestepping the problem of having to get 3 phantasms up (cooldown related) for maximum effect and increasing the effectiveness of the utility phantasms provide.-- I'd prefer something along the lines of 1 clone instead of 2, but make the clone be significant. Give it some health and absorb damage or have it do damage, somehow this feels like a missed opportunity so far

Some more minor issues:

• what's the cooldown on songs? (is there even one needed when they are tied to phantasms only?)

• I love the change to our F1-4, but the loss of F3 and F4 is huge defensively. Add in to that our loss of distortion and we turn from super tanky to instant dead. We are left with 2 dodges, Sword 2+4 and some movement skills. That's a big step down for a class designed around evasion and damage ignore. How will a mesmer survive a 10 second focus from enemys? (this is more of a competative issue)

• Warhorn while fitting thematically leaves us with the problem mesmer has had since launch. Only 1 viable mainhand weapon (sword as allrounder, scepter as condi). This gets even worse if we consider scepters main ability is clone generation and a 1 hit block, both of which will not suffice or perform well for this elite. I stricktly do not believe mesmer should ever receive only an offhand weapon for an elite again, this only worked for chrono because of how powerful the shield is utility wise.

• The longbow idea is nice. I'd much rather have longbow tied to a ranged power build, but it would fit thematically sort of. Not a fan of taking underwater weapons to land. I know people are fans of this and it makes sense from an artistic design point. It would require quite a lot of programming to implement. Might be easier to just add a completely new weapon set.

@Cyninja.2954 said:First off, quite a creative approach with quite some effort. Personally I'd much prefer a power damage elite or something along the lines of a damage elite which is less reliant on clones, but that's just me.

Some issues though which I see with this idea:

- what game mode is the target audience?:-- Phantasms don't work for wvw no matter what they do (unless made immune or something similar). We would have to approach Scourge level of utility, and we all know where that is going to end after the next rebalance (plus Scourge provides a massive amount of offence and defence currently)

-- Pve I don't see this build bringing significant damage if the phantasms are dedicated to debuffs and/or the debuffs would have to be insanely strong to warrant a spot in raids, fractals I doubt it will be workable at all

-- spvp might work depending on how well phantasms affect other players and how much defence the mesmer retains

- 4 illusions are nice, but somehow I feel this is just added fluff for the sake of added fluff.-- what's the benefit of 2 clones? without mirage traits they are useless. Please don't say: for deception.-- I like the 2 phantasms approach. You are sidestepping the problem of having to get 3 phantasms up (cooldown related) for maximum effect and increasing the effectiveness of the utility phantasms provide.-- I'd prefer something along the lines of 1 clone instead of 2, but make the clone be significant. Give it some health and absorb damage or have it do damage, somehow this feels like a missed opportunity so far

Some more minor issues:

• what's the cooldown on songs? (is there even one needed when they are tied to phantasms only?)

• I love the change to our F1-4, but the loss of F3 and F4 is huge defensively. Add in to that our loss of distortion and we turn from super tanky to instant dead. We are left with 2 dodges, Sword 2+4 and some movement skills. That's a big step down for a class designed around evasion and damage ignore. How will a mesmer survive a 10 second focus from enemys? (this is more of a competative issue)

• Warhorn while fitting thematically leaves us with the problem mesmer has had since launch. Only 1 viable mainhand weapon (sword as allrounder, scepter as condi). This gets even worse if we consider scepters main ability is clone generation and a 1 hit block, both of which will not suffice or perform well for this elite. I stricktly do not believe mesmer should ever receive only an offhand weapon for an elite again, this only worked for chrono because of how powerful the shield is utility wise.

• The longbow idea is nice. I'd much rather have longbow tied to a ranged power build, but it would fit thematically sort of. Not a fan of taking underwater weapons to land. I know people are fans of this and it makes sense from an artistic design point. It would require quite a lot of programming to implement. Might be easier to just add a completely new weapon set.

Think about this from more angles than what is just shown there. This is a concept not a complete idea. I didn't put up the numbers because that disctracts from the overall design of the elite spec. So don't get hung up on that. Look at what could be added to it to fill out its play style and theme and try to work with that.

The mesmer has a tone of defensive options. Distortion isn't the only thing. Blinks, blocks, evades, invuln, stealth are all things that are a defense. To add to this I didn't mention the radius of the songs. Which would be quite large a radius. You also have to consider that the last two songs are AOE interrupts. Not just that, powerful interrupts. So the complaint on that doesn't really make sense to me.

As for what sort of defenses could they have? Well, Mesmers are used to being quite defensive already. There are 2 defensive specs already with Chronomancer and Mirage. This one isn't supposed to be as tanky as those are however where they lose defenses in their shatters they can easily gain defenses in the utility or traits. So you need to consider that in terms of its design.

Where does this fit? In my opinion I'd say most likely in PvE or PvP. The disruption it provides is quite strong with quite a big radius of short term field denial while also having some interesting use in PvE with the Phantasms being able to persist and the songs with their strong impact. I mentioned Fragility as a trait which wouldn't just trigger on your condition application but allies. Since that too would be physical damage that could critical hit this gives it some synergy with allies while not having to run very many conditions yourself. ALthough Since that's quite strong I'd probably suggest a cap on how many times it could trigger in a second.

@Lily.1935 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:First off, quite a creative approach with quite some effort. Personally I'd much prefer a power damage elite or something along the lines of a damage elite which is less reliant on clones, but that's just me.

Some issues though which I see with this idea:

- what game mode is the target audience?:

-- Phantasms don't work for wvw no matter what they do (unless made immune or something similar). We would have to approach Scourge level of utility, and we all know where that is going to end after the next rebalance (plus Scourge provides a massive amount of offence and defence currently)

-- Pve I don't see this build bringing significant damage if the phantasms are dedicated to debuffs and/or the debuffs would have to be insanely strong to warrant a spot in raids, fractals I doubt it will be workable at all

-- spvp might work depending on how well phantasms affect other players and how much defence the mesmer retains

- 4 illusions are nice, but somehow I feel this is just added fluff for the sake of added fluff.

-- what's the benefit of 2 clones? without mirage traits they are useless. Please don't say: for deception.-- I like the 2 phantasms approach. You are sidestepping the problem of having to get 3 phantasms up (cooldown related) for maximum effect and increasing the effectiveness of the utility phantasms provide.-- I'd prefer something along the lines of 1 clone instead of 2, but make the clone be significant. Give it some health and absorb damage or have it do damage, somehow this feels like a missed opportunity so far

Some more minor issues:

• what's the cooldown on songs? (is there even one needed when they are tied to phantasms only?)

• I love the change to our F1-4, but the loss of F3 and F4 is huge defensively. Add in to that our loss of distortion and we turn from super tanky to instant dead. We are left with 2 dodges, Sword 2+4 and some movement skills. That's a big step down for a class designed around evasion and damage ignore. How will a mesmer survive a 10 second focus from enemys? (this is more of a competative issue)

• Warhorn while fitting thematically leaves us with the problem mesmer has had since launch. Only 1 viable mainhand weapon (sword as allrounder, scepter as condi). This gets even worse if we consider scepters main ability is clone generation and a 1 hit block, both of which will not suffice or perform well for this elite. I stricktly do not believe mesmer should ever receive only an offhand weapon for an elite again, this only worked for chrono because of how powerful the shield is utility wise.

• The longbow idea is nice. I'd much rather have longbow tied to a ranged power build, but it would fit thematically sort of. Not a fan of taking underwater weapons to land. I know people are fans of this and it makes sense from an artistic design point. It would require quite a lot of programming to implement. Might be easier to just add a completely new weapon set.

I get that it's a concept, hence why I was asking question and voicing concern with some of the ideas.

@Lily.1935 said:

The mesmer has a tone of defensive options. Distortion isn't the only thing. Blinks, blocks, evades, invuln, stealth are all things that are a defense. To add to this I didn't mention the radius of the songs. Which would be quite large a radius. You also have to consider that the last two songs are AOE interrupts. Not just that, powerful interrupts. So the complaint on that doesn't really make sense to me.

I'm sorry but no. Mesmer defensive skills are balanced in such a way that they work as a whole. Taking out a big segment of them changes the entire dynamic. Both other light armor classes have significant defensive options available to them both in form of straight up extra life (necromancer) or massive amounts of heal and tank (elementalist). This becomes even more evident when one looks at how chrono and mirage are designed. Both had the mesmer defensive options expanded upon.

As far as songs, we are back to my comment on they would have to be either super powerful (1500 range for example) or they'd be useless. I don't view a static field where people can walk out of as a viable defensive ability (unless it's grossly overpowered).

All the different mechanics you mentioned aren't available freely. They require weapon or ultility slot dedication. Explaining that they help does nothing to compensate for removal of baseline available survival. Every mesmer has all these defenses available to them currently and the class/elites are balanced.

@Lily.1935 said:

As for what sort of defenses could they have? Well, Mesmers are used to being quite defensive already. There are 2 defensive specs already with Chronomancer and Mirage. This one isn't supposed to be as tanky as those are however where they lose defenses in their shatters they can easily gain defenses in the utility or traits. So you need to consider that in terms of its design.

Take a look at Scourge and realise, even if you take away some defensive abilities, they need to get compensated in some way. Stating that a spec is supposed to be offensive is nice but doesn't serve as an explenation of how the spec is supposed to deal with cetain mechanics. You can be as offensive as you want, if the enemy team knows you are to be focused and will die within 5 seconds, that's exactly what they will do.

@Lily.1935 said:

Where does this fit? In my opinion I'd say most likely in PvE or PvP. The disruption it provides is quite strong with quite a big radius of short term field denial while also having some interesting use in PvE with the Phantasms being able to persist and the songs with their strong impact. I mentioned Fragility as a trait which wouldn't just trigger on your condition application but allies. Since that too would be physical damage that could critical hit this gives it some synergy with allies while not having to run very many conditions yourself. ALthough Since that's quite strong I'd probably suggest a cap on how many times it could trigger in a second.

Interupts don't work in pve (relevant pve, not talking open world). The condition multiplication could work, but requires a very specific setup class wise (which could work in the current meta). Spvp I don't see this elite surviving beyond 5 seconds when focused without massive team support.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:First off, quite a creative approach with quite some effort. Personally I'd much prefer a power damage elite or something along the lines of a damage elite which is less reliant on clones, but that's just me.

Some issues though which I see with this idea:

- what game mode is the target audience?:

-- Phantasms don't work for wvw no matter what they do (unless made immune or something similar). We would have to approach Scourge level of utility, and we all know where that is going to end after the next rebalance (plus Scourge provides a massive amount of offence and defence currently)

-- Pve I don't see this build bringing significant damage if the phantasms are dedicated to debuffs and/or the debuffs would have to be insanely strong to warrant a spot in raids, fractals I doubt it will be workable at all

-- spvp might work depending on how well phantasms affect other players and how much defence the mesmer retains

- 4 illusions are nice, but somehow I feel this is just added fluff for the sake of added fluff.

-- what's the benefit of 2 clones? without mirage traits they are useless. Please don't say: for deception.-- I like the 2 phantasms approach. You are sidestepping the problem of having to get 3 phantasms up (cooldown related) for maximum effect and increasing the effectiveness of the utility phantasms provide.-- I'd prefer something along the lines of 1 clone instead of 2, but make the clone be significant. Give it some health and absorb damage or have it do damage, somehow this feels like a missed opportunity so far

Some more minor issues:

• what's the cooldown on songs? (is there even one needed when they are tied to phantasms only?)

• I love the change to our F1-4, but the loss of F3 and F4 is huge defensively. Add in to that our loss of distortion and we turn from super tanky to instant dead. We are left with 2 dodges, Sword 2+4 and some movement skills. That's a big step down for a class designed around evasion and damage ignore. How will a mesmer survive a 10 second focus from enemys? (this is more of a competative issue)

• Warhorn while fitting thematically leaves us with the problem mesmer has had since launch. Only 1 viable mainhand weapon (sword as allrounder, scepter as condi). This gets even worse if we consider scepters main ability is clone generation and a 1 hit block, both of which will not suffice or perform well for this elite. I stricktly do not believe mesmer should ever receive only an offhand weapon for an elite again, this only worked for chrono because of how powerful the shield is utility wise.

• The longbow idea is nice. I'd much rather have longbow tied to a ranged power build, but it would fit thematically sort of. Not a fan of taking underwater weapons to land. I know people are fans of this and it makes sense from an artistic design point. It would require quite a lot of programming to implement. Might be easier to just add a completely new weapon set.

@Lily.1935 said:

The mesmer has a tone of defensive options. Distortion isn't the only thing. Blinks, blocks, evades, invuln, stealth are all things that are a defense. To add to this I didn't mention the radius of the songs. Which would be quite large a radius. You also have to consider that the last two songs are AOE interrupts. Not just that, powerful interrupts. So the complaint on that doesn't really make sense to me.

@Lily.1935 said:

As for what sort of defenses could they have? Well, Mesmers are used to being quite defensive already. There are 2 defensive specs already with Chronomancer and Mirage. This one isn't supposed to be as tanky as those are however where they lose defenses in their shatters they can easily gain defenses in the utility or traits. So you need to consider that in terms of its design.

@Lily.1935 said:

Where does this fit? In my opinion I'd say most likely in PvE or PvP. The disruption it provides is quite strong with quite a big radius of short term field denial while also having some interesting use in PvE with the Phantasms being able to persist and the songs with their strong impact. I mentioned Fragility as a trait which wouldn't just trigger on your condition application but allies. Since that too would be physical damage that could critical hit this gives it some synergy with allies while not having to run very many conditions yourself. ALthough Since that's quite strong I'd probably suggest a cap on how many times it could trigger in a second.

Most professions have to sacrifice a utility slot or elite for some more defence. And most don't have it automatically built into their mechanic. Engineer, warrior, revenant, ranger and thief don't have an automatic defence built into their mechanic and many of them have fewer options than the Mesmer even when taking distortion away. So when I see this sort of response I can't help but feel you're being hyperbolic.

1,500 range is absolutely insane. That is well beyond the reasonable distance needed. My thought was 600. Already a potent range especially considering the Mesmer has the freedom of movement and response while the song is playing. The effects I mentioned above are by no means minor either. Trying to attack through empathy would be as nightmarish as it was in gw1 and the possibility of spreading conditions like weakness and chill is something to worry about. They could easily scare people off of points while protecting themselves with reflects or phantasmal defender.

Also, although I didn't mention this, one idea for the songs I had. Was that when they start to play it's a radius around them not the Mesmer. Meaning that 2 phantasms that are playing the song would each potential have a 600 radius.

I'm also not attached to vertigo. I like the song but it could be replaced with something more similar to distortion if people felt it was an absolute must. However when I designed vertigo it was with the intention of giving mesmers something equivalent In raw power to black out or power block from gw1. But if it was something else I don't mind.

Now I'm all for others ideas. Part of the reason I posted this without a complete list of skills and traits was to open the conversation and expand on the idea itself. I've been a bit stumped on what it should get or how far it should go so I figured, let's have a conversation. So I ask you, don't just say something is bad offer alternatives and means of improvement.