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Your entitlement to my LFG requirements

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  • Amineo.8951Amineo.8951 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 27, 2020

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Amineo.8951 said:
    I'm not hating speedrunners or top tier guilds, I'm not the best player and I'm a human being with flaws, but this kind of behaviour is not making me want to come back making me wanna continue playing other games and I'm sure there are dozens of people out there who think the same, just my 2 cents.

    Out of curiosity and no sarcasm intended but an honest question:
    Why is "Block and move on" not an option? Why allow a clearly ugly person this kind of power over you?

    Because this isn't the only time this happened? This is perhaps at the very least 1/3 or maybe 1/4 of the endgame community being like this guy, even though it's below 50% that's still a lot.

    Maybe it's unrelated but you would think people would stop being jerks with a pandemic going on worldwide, but they still manage to be dumb fools even years later, this is the main reason why humanity cannot evolve and is bound to vanish as things gets worse and worse every day.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 27, 2020

    @Amineo.8951 said:
    Because this isn't the only time this happened? This is perhaps at the very least 1/3 or maybe 1/4 of the endgame community being like this guy, even though it's below 50% that's still a lot.

    Maybe it's unrelated but you would think people would stop being jerks with a pandemic going on worldwide, but they still manage to be dumb fools even years later, this is the main reason why humanity cannot evolve and is bound to vanish as things gets worse and worse every day.

    I want you to consider this.
    I have, at this point played hundreds of Strike Missions and have never one single time had anything like this happen to me.
    Not once.
    Your description of the community running Strike Missions is so far out of alignment with mine that it sounds really really strange. If you have done 10 strikes and this kind of thing happened three times I would say there was a significant issue and might feel the same way as you.

    While I am not going to make any assumptions about you and what you do when you join squads I will say two things.
    1. I make my own squads/groups set my own restrictions and word my LFG's carefully as to set the tone of my group. I say "ALL WELCOME" and frequently tell people to bring whatever build they want in my LFGs. This sets a certain expectation that people do not expect a meta comp and leaves a fair amount of the performance shaming power-gamers to pass over my team. There is zero reason you cannot do this yourself. Your squad, your rules.
    2. If you feel that the constant may be you, and you are on NA, add me as a friend and send me a message in game. We can definitely fire up a squad and run a few missions to see if you are doing something that is triggering the jerks.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Amineo.8951Amineo.8951 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 27, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Amineo.8951 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Amineo.8951 said:
    I'm not hating speedrunners or top tier guilds, I'm not the best player and I'm a human being with flaws, but this kind of behaviour is not making me want to come back making me wanna continue playing other games and I'm sure there are dozens of people out there who think the same, just my 2 cents.

    Out of curiosity and no sarcasm intended but an honest question:
    Why is "Block and move on" not an option? Why allow a clearly ugly person this kind of power over you?

    Because this isn't the only time this happened? This is perhaps at the very least 1/3 or maybe 1/4 of the endgame community being like this guy, even though it's below 50% that's still a lot.

    Maybe it's unrelated but you would think people would stop being jerks with a pandemic going on worldwide, but they still manage to be dumb fools even years later, this is the main reason why humanity cannot evolve and is bound to vanish as things gets worse and worse every day.

    So you have an issue with continually running into the same problem, with different players on the other side of the issue, with you as the one common denominator, yet you see no reason to question how you are approaching this?

    Don't join LFG with requirements you don't meet. Problem solved. There are far more "free for all" LFGs daily than there are LI/KP ones. They simply fill faster and thus drop out of the LFG pane more quickly. If you have to wait more than 1-3 minutes for a "free fo all" LFG for strikes, you are in the wrong tab (or way off peak hours).

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Amineo.8951 said:
    Because this isn't the only time this happened? This is perhaps at the very least 1/3 or maybe 1/4 of the endgame community being like this guy, even though it's below 50% that's still a lot.

    Maybe it's unrelated but you would think people would stop being jerks with a pandemic going on worldwide, but they still manage to be dumb fools even years later, this is the main reason why humanity cannot evolve and is bound to vanish as things gets worse and worse every day.

    I want you to consider this.
    I have, at this point played hundreds of Strike Missions and have never one single time had anything like this happen to me.
    Not once.
    Your description of the community running Strike Missions is so far out of alignment with mine that it sounds really really strange. If you have done 10 strikes and this kind of thing happened three times I would say there was a significant issue and might feel the same way as you.

    While I am not going to make any assumptions about you and what you do when you join squads I will say two things.
    1. I make my own squads/groups set my own restrictions and word my LFG's carefully as to set the tone of my group. I say "ALL WELCOME" and frequently tell people to bring whatever build they want in my LFGs. This sets a certain expectation that people do not expect a meta comp and leaves a fair amount of the performance shaming power-gamers to pass over my team. There is zero reason you cannot do this yourself. Your squad, your rules.
    2. If you feel that the constant may be you, and you are on NA, add me as a friend and send me a message in game. We can definitely fire up a squad and run a few missions to see if you are doing something that is triggering the jerks.

    I talked about Fractals and Raids mainly, Strikes usually doesn't have these issues and I consider these easier than Dungeons pre-HoT. I just think it's legit to talk about these since TC was inserting LIs as a way to select people in content that has nothing to do with Raids.

    Also that statement about being more groups not asking for KP is absolutely false, in EU that is because that's where I play, the pages are filled with people asking KP in Raids and Fractals.

    It's especially bad in Raids for Path of Fire Wings (aka W5/W6/W7) because people don't ask LIs but specifically KPs from each Wings which furthers push players aside, this is one of the reasons why ArenaNet gave up with Raids, since there are obviously much less people playing these Wings than the HoT ones (aka W1/W2/W3/W4).

    Strikes works better in that case because people cannot put dumb requirements like this so there are more "friendlier" groups being formed than in Fractals & Raids.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Amineo.8951 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Amineo.8951 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Amineo.8951 said:
    I'm not hating speedrunners or top tier guilds, I'm not the best player and I'm a human being with flaws, but this kind of behaviour is not making me want to come back making me wanna continue playing other games and I'm sure there are dozens of people out there who think the same, just my 2 cents.

    Out of curiosity and no sarcasm intended but an honest question:
    Why is "Block and move on" not an option? Why allow a clearly ugly person this kind of power over you?

    Because this isn't the only time this happened? This is perhaps at the very least 1/3 or maybe 1/4 of the endgame community being like this guy, even though it's below 50% that's still a lot.

    Maybe it's unrelated but you would think people would stop being jerks with a pandemic going on worldwide, but they still manage to be dumb fools even years later, this is the main reason why humanity cannot evolve and is bound to vanish as things gets worse and worse every day.

    So you have an issue with continually running into the same problem, with different players on the other side of the issue, with you as the one common denominator, yet you see no reason to question how you are approaching this?

    Don't join LFG with requirements you don't meet. Problem solved. There are far more "free for all" LFGs daily than there are LI/KP ones. They simply fill faster and thus drop out of the LFG pane more quickly. If you have to wait more than 1-3 minutes for a "free fo all" LFG for strikes, you are in the wrong tab (or way off peak hours).

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Amineo.8951 said:
    Because this isn't the only time this happened? This is perhaps at the very least 1/3 or maybe 1/4 of the endgame community being like this guy, even though it's below 50% that's still a lot.

    Maybe it's unrelated but you would think people would stop being jerks with a pandemic going on worldwide, but they still manage to be dumb fools even years later, this is the main reason why humanity cannot evolve and is bound to vanish as things gets worse and worse every day.

    I want you to consider this.
    I have, at this point played hundreds of Strike Missions and have never one single time had anything like this happen to me.
    Not once.
    Your description of the community running Strike Missions is so far out of alignment with mine that it sounds really really strange. If you have done 10 strikes and this kind of thing happened three times I would say there was a significant issue and might feel the same way as you.

    While I am not going to make any assumptions about you and what you do when you join squads I will say two things.
    1. I make my own squads/groups set my own restrictions and word my LFG's carefully as to set the tone of my group. I say "ALL WELCOME" and frequently tell people to bring whatever build they want in my LFGs. This sets a certain expectation that people do not expect a meta comp and leaves a fair amount of the performance shaming power-gamers to pass over my team. There is zero reason you cannot do this yourself. Your squad, your rules.
    2. If you feel that the constant may be you, and you are on NA, add me as a friend and send me a message in game. We can definitely fire up a squad and run a few missions to see if you are doing something that is triggering the jerks.

    I talked about Fractals and Raids mainly, Strikes usually doesn't have these issues and I consider these easier than Dungeons pre-HoT.

    Ok... well.... I run plenty of fractals and again.... never seen this once. So clearly I need a crappy little comment about dungeons after offering to help you and have no idea what I am talking about.
    But hey... you do you.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Amineo.8951 said:
    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Amineo.8951 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Amineo.8951 said:
    I'm not hating speedrunners or top tier guilds, I'm not the best player and I'm a human being with flaws, but this kind of behaviour is not making me want to come back making me wanna continue playing other games and I'm sure there are dozens of people out there who think the same, just my 2 cents.

    Out of curiosity and no sarcasm intended but an honest question:
    Why is "Block and move on" not an option? Why allow a clearly ugly person this kind of power over you?

    Because this isn't the only time this happened? This is perhaps at the very least 1/3 or maybe 1/4 of the endgame community being like this guy, even though it's below 50% that's still a lot.

    Maybe it's unrelated but you would think people would stop being jerks with a pandemic going on worldwide, but they still manage to be dumb fools even years later, this is the main reason why humanity cannot evolve and is bound to vanish as things gets worse and worse every day.

    So you have an issue with continually running into the same problem, with different players on the other side of the issue, with you as the one common denominator, yet you see no reason to question how you are approaching this?

    Don't join LFG with requirements you don't meet. Problem solved. There are far more "free for all" LFGs daily than there are LI/KP ones. They simply fill faster and thus drop out of the LFG pane more quickly. If you have to wait more than 1-3 minutes for a "free fo all" LFG for strikes, you are in the wrong tab (or way off peak hours).

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Amineo.8951 said:
    Because this isn't the only time this happened? This is perhaps at the very least 1/3 or maybe 1/4 of the endgame community being like this guy, even though it's below 50% that's still a lot.

    Maybe it's unrelated but you would think people would stop being jerks with a pandemic going on worldwide, but they still manage to be dumb fools even years later, this is the main reason why humanity cannot evolve and is bound to vanish as things gets worse and worse every day.

    I want you to consider this.
    I have, at this point played hundreds of Strike Missions and have never one single time had anything like this happen to me.
    Not once.
    Your description of the community running Strike Missions is so far out of alignment with mine that it sounds really really strange. If you have done 10 strikes and this kind of thing happened three times I would say there was a significant issue and might feel the same way as you.

    While I am not going to make any assumptions about you and what you do when you join squads I will say two things.
    1. I make my own squads/groups set my own restrictions and word my LFG's carefully as to set the tone of my group. I say "ALL WELCOME" and frequently tell people to bring whatever build they want in my LFGs. This sets a certain expectation that people do not expect a meta comp and leaves a fair amount of the performance shaming power-gamers to pass over my team. There is zero reason you cannot do this yourself. Your squad, your rules.
    2. If you feel that the constant may be you, and you are on NA, add me as a friend and send me a message in game. We can definitely fire up a squad and run a few missions to see if you are doing something that is triggering the jerks.

    I talked about Fractals and Raids mainly, Strikes usually doesn't have these issues and I consider these easier than Dungeons pre-HoT. I just think it's legit to talk about these since TC was inserting LIs as a way to select people in content that has nothing to do with Raids.

    Fractals have far more groups without requirements or minimum requirements like "healer or druid" for T4. They simply fill fast.

    Fractal CMs have requirements because players with varying experience don't want to take inexperienced players along. Even here, groups without requirements fill faster, but are more seldom put up because the amount of players willing to learn the content is far lower than the amount of players experienced with the content (unlike T4 fractals which has a far bigger player base running them). So the issue here is rather the amount of players willing to learn the content.

    The problem here specific to you is: you are looking in the wrong place to find groups fitting your experience level.

    @Amineo.8951 said:
    Also that statement about being more groups not asking for KP is absolutely false, in EU that is because that's where I play, the pages are filled with people asking KP in Raids and Fractals.

    Yes, because the amount of groups for experienced raiders exceeds the amount of groups with new raiders in LFG. That's because most new players find groups via other avenues which are more successful than LFG.

    @Amineo.8951 said:
    It's especially bad in Raids for Path of Fire Wings (aka W5/W6/W7) because people don't ask LIs but specifically KPs from each Wings which furthers push players aside, this is one of the reasons why ArenaNet gave up with Raids, since there are obviously much less people playing these Wings than the HoT ones (aka W1/W2/W3/W4).

    Yes, those wings are more difficulty to get into via the LFG. If only there was more ways to get into raiding. Then again, you are free to list your own LFG at any time and start a group and get people motivated to learn the fights.

    @Amineo.8951 said:
    Strikes works better in that case because people cannot put dumb requirements like this so there are more "friendlier" groups being formed than in Fractals & Raids.

    No, strikes are easier and less failure heavy, especially the first 3. Stop applying your faulty reasoning to why there is lower demands in LFG. Demands in LFG increase with content difficulty and group performance requirements. That's true across the entire game, hence why you don't see any requirements for open world bosses or events.

  • Mad Queen Malafide.7512Mad Queen Malafide.7512 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 27, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Simple, this thread is about players actively disagreeing with how someone setup their LFG.

    Specifically, with how they exclude people with very absurd requirements. Don't leave that out. There is a difference between positivity and welcoming all manner of people, and the exact opposite. They are not the same, obviously.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You just now gave an example how you made your own LFG, and had a great experience with it. You should be the first to support and agree that players should have every right to make the LFGs how THEY want. If then similar minded players join, there will never be issues.

    So because I gave an example of a positive way to make a LFG, I should there for approve of every kind of LFG, including the really exclusive and unpleasant ones?

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Ah so the trigger word is inclusive. Sounds more to me like: "everyone is entitled to their own opinion as long as its mine".

    Well this reply of yours is all manners of unpleasant isn't it?
    Something tells me that you're not really interested in polite discussion.

  • Hyrai.8720Hyrai.8720 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 27, 2020

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    Some people want the maximum chance of success as fast as possible and they see LFG requirements as the way to achieve that. Others, such as myself feel that teams fill faster with an inclusive agenda and this gets things done every bit as quickly and without the pressure.

    i usually join "250+LI" squads for strikes. if you lfg during prime-time it takes about 2-5min to fill the squad, clearing all 5 strikes then takes 20-25 minutes. so overall 30min for a full strike clear.
    by the experience i have with "all welcome" squads, not only does it take much longer to clear all strikes - you also get less loot.
    for example: just recently i did strikes with one of those "all welcome" squads on my alt-account. i was top dps while running suboptimal exotic gear (some pieces actually had soldiers stats). we didnt kill a single boss within the gold timer. we whiped several times at WoJ, so it took more than 30min to kill it. after 1 hour i left without even killing boneskinner.

    in conclusion:
    i dont mind joining "all welcome" squads and lowering my expectations. but saying those squads are just as fast is just wrong.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 27, 2020

    @Hyrai.8720 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    Some people want the maximum chance of success as fast as possible and they see LFG requirements as the way to achieve that. Others, such as myself feel that teams fill faster with an inclusive agenda and this gets things done every bit as quickly and without the pressure.

    i usually join "250+LI" squads for strikes. if you lfg during prime-time it takes about 2-5min to fill the squad, clearing all 5 strikes then takes 20-25 minutes. so overall 30min for a full strike clear.
    by the experience i have with "all welcome" squads, not only does it take much longer to clear all strikes - you also get less loot.

    Yep that can happen.
    I've also seen full try hard groups still looking for people to fill when I have had to relist and replace people after a kill.

    for example: just recently i did strikes with one of those "all welcome" squads on my alt-account. i was top dps while running suboptimal exotic gear (some pieces actually had soldiers stats). we didnt kill a single boss within the gold timer. we whiped several times at WoJ, so it took more than 30min to kill it. after 1 hour i left without even killing boneskinner.

    Wow.... so you joined a team knowing you were personally underperfoming and then the team didn't get gold.
    Shocking.
    Cool story. Good thing you have all that LI

    in conclusion:
    i dont mind joining "all welcome" squads and lowering my expectations. but saying those squads are just as fast is purely ignorant.

    I have sat waiting 5-10 minutes while a group of Try hard pugs debates Team Comp and who is going to play what more times than I can count.
    How long do you think it takes for a group of All Welcome pepegas like myself to kill voice and claw?

    PS your edit after my response was ...pretty odd

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Mad Queen Malafide.7512Mad Queen Malafide.7512 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 27, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No there isn't. If you demand the right to freedom to make groups how you want, that right must be extended to everybody, within the framework set by Arenanet (aka not offensive, no harassment, etc.). You don't get to cherry pick who's LFG demands are valid and who's are not. Your right extends to not joining that group, which I approve of you making use of, and that is IT.

    I'm not making any such demand at all. I made no demands what so ever.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Spare me the righteous "but my LFG was inclusive". To that all I can say is:
    The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

    Wow! By that reasoning you could dismiss every kind act as being a bad thing.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No, imagine someone had joined your group and started being toxic? You would have had every right to remove that person. You have that right because you clearly stated what you were looking for and he was not fitting. I would have been right there with you and said: yes, that was absolutely not okay. That person should have never joined, you were in every right to remove them.

    The same extends to everyone else. If they made clearly what they are looking for, for which I have yet to see a good argument against, they have every right to remove players who do not fit that criteria.

    The argument is not about if they have 'the right' to make any LFG they want. The argument is if they 'should' make these rediculously high requirements for content that does not require it. And I think they shouldn't.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I shall refer you to my previous comment about the road to Hell. The irony of it all being you not even realizing what the statement you made was.

    You are not improving your tone good sir. Not one bit.

  • Hyrai.8720Hyrai.8720 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 27, 2020

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    Yep that can happen.
    I've also seen full try hard groups still looking for people to fill when I have had to relist and replace people after a kill.

    yep, that can happen too. not gonna argue about that ^^
    though people leaving after a single kill (usually daily) is a thing ive only seen in casual squads so far.

    Wow.... so you joined a team knowing you were personally underperfoming and then the team didn't get gold.
    Shocking.

    how am i 'underperforming' when the lfg says "all welcome"? :smile:
    also, i dont think 20k+ dps is underperforming when the rest of the squad is somewhere around 8k...

    I have sat waiting 5-10 minutes while a group of Try hard pugs debates Team Comp and who is going to play what more times than I can count.

    never had that in any of my squads.
    shouldnt happen if the comm is "tryhard" enough to list the roles that need to be filled in lfg.
    the way i do it is usually: open squad, wait for a couple of dps to join, remove lfg (gotta be fast or you have 10dps before you can count to 5 :smiley:), list new lfg for qb,alac and healers.

    How long do you think it takes for a group of All Welcome pepegas like myself to kill voice and claw?

    from my experience it can be anything from "barely within enrage timer plus 1 or 2 whipes" to "easy gold". with tryhards its guaranteed first try gold.

  • Mad Queen Malafide.7512Mad Queen Malafide.7512 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 27, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Read further down:
    Moral certainty can be used to justify the harm done by failing policies and actions. Those with good intentions believe their practices are good for the group; it is self-evident to them.

    The problem with quoting the words of others, is that they are not your words, and they can there for easily betray a misunderstanding of the original quote.
    Such is the case with your application of the popular phrase "The road to hell is pathed with good intentions". That phrase applies only to situations of good intentions leading to bad consequences. It does not however, apply to good acts. If I offer to teach random strangers how to do Fractals, that's a good act. You can't apply that phrase to it. It doesn't work.

    This is also the case with your quote regarding moral certainty. If you're going to use those words, you had better make sure that the person you are discussing with made a statement of moral certainty, which I did not. I gave an opinion, not a statement of moral certainty.

    Maybe you should stop quoting others.

    If you are of the opinion that my act of offering to teach people how to do Fractals leads to "hell" or bad things. Then my question would be: "How?"

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 27, 2020

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Read further down:
    Moral certainty can be used to justify the harm done by failing policies and actions. Those with good intentions believe their practices are good for the group; it is self-evident to them.

    The problem with quoting the words of others, is that they are not your words, and they can there for easily betray a misunderstanding of the original quote.
    Such is the case with your application of the popular phrase "The road to hell is pathed with good intentions". That phrase applies only to situations of good intentions leading to bad consequences. It does not however, apply to good acts. If I offer to teach random strangers how to do Fractals, that's a good act. You can't apply that phrase to it. It doesn't work.

    You assuming that your usage of the LFG is "good" is already incorrect. It is at the very least inconsequential, unless you deem using the LFG with KP/LI as "evil". I'd be careful with value judgements.

    Given your responses, you have painted a very clear picture of your personal opinions on this matter.

    Also I was not quoting "others", I was quoting a common known proverb and providing a link in case it was not familiar to you.

    There is no harm from creating "all welcome" LFGs. The harm comes from, what you tried to accomplish with this example in the context of this discussion, disallowing other approaches or uses of the LFG (or at the very least calling into question the morality of how others use the LFG). Where I explained that you seemed unaware of what argument you had actually made.

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:
    This is also the case with your quote regarding moral certainty. If you're going to use those words, you had better make sure that the person you are discussing with made a statement of moral certainty, which I did not. I gave an opinion, not a statement of moral certainty.

    Maybe you should stop quoting others.

    If you are of the opinion that my act of offering to teach people how to do Fractals leads to "hell" or bad things. Then my question would be: "How?"

    No, my opinion is that your suggestion that using the LFG only in ways you see as correct is of potential harm to the game, and others. Maybe not immediately, but in the long run. What if some time down the road, the same "rules" or value judgements made by you turn? Or someone else decides that their values are better/correct, and they get them implemented? That's the problem with "subjective value" based rules, they are subject to change over time.

    Hence my opinion remains: let all players use the LFG how they see fit, and if everyone respects other players LFGs, there are no issues and this is free of any personal values players might hold, now and in the future.

    That is unless I misunderstood the goal of your narrative post, and you simply wished to share a positive experience, while fully agreeing that each player should have the freedom to use the LFG how they see fit, within the scope set by the developers. In that case, we seem to agree and I congratulate you on your fun run.

  • Mad Queen Malafide.7512Mad Queen Malafide.7512 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 27, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You assuming that your usage of the LFG is "good" is already incorrect.

    Is helping others a "good" thing to do? If yes, then helping to teach people how to fractals, falls into that category.
    If not, then what is good in your opinion?

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    There is no harm from creating "all welcome" LFGs. The harm comes from, what you tried to accomplish with this example in the context of this discussion, disallowing other approaches or uses of the LFG (or at the very least calling into question the morality of how others use the LFG).

    I didn't disallow anything. As far as I know, I'm not in charge of who gets to do what in GW2 (but wouldn't it be cool if I was? Bye mesmers!).

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No, my opinion is that your suggestion that using the LFG only in ways you see as correct is of potential harm to the game, and others.

    I never suggested that at all. What I said, was that excluding people with absurdly high requirements is bad for the game, and counter productive.

    Because if you want to get a party together quickly, that will not help you accomplish that.
    And if you want to guarantee a success, it will not do that either, since you are not asking for Strike Mission experience.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    and if everyone respects other players LFGs, there are no issues and this is free of any personal values players might hold, now and in the future.

    I don't have to respect other people's LFG's at all, and I think that is a perfectly fine position to take.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    That is unless I misunderstood the goal of your narrative post, and you simply wished to share a positive experience,

    That was (obviously) the goal, as well as showing that inexperienced players can sometimes be better than experienced players to have in your group.

  • Mad Queen Malafide.7512Mad Queen Malafide.7512 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 27, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    So my initial understanding was correct. You are more than happy with taking liberties for yourself, which you do not extend onto others. Yes, I guess that's where we differ, yet I am the toxic one. You know, I can live with that.

    I don't think that is what I said at all. Plus, is that all you gathered from my post? How about point number 1, or point number 3?
    Also, I never called you toxic, but I implied that you were being rude in your post(s). Which you were.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I guess that's why I have way less issues with LFGs. I actually respect what people write into them. You do you though.

    Don't misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not going to join a LFG when I don't meet the requirements of what they are asking (most of the time*). But I don't need to respect anyone for having outrageous LFG requirements.

    (" There was this one time a group asked for a guardian, and I joined the group anyway and told them I was a guardian disguised as a necromancer.)

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 29, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    There should be NO debate here: Players can setup their LFG in any way they want ... EVEN if that way restricts their teaming options and eventually their self-imposed exclusivity leads to their self-extinction ... /shrug

    Indeed. Anyone should be completely free to team up with whomever they want to, according to whatever requirements they feel are okay (as long, of course, as the other people share those sentiments - they might not).
    I may disagree with requirements, or agree with them but dislike the content that causes them to be used, but i would still fully support the rights of players to choose who they're going to play with, and whom they want to avoid.

    By the way, I'd say that my sig should explain my position on that well enough.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Mad Queen Malafide.7512Mad Queen Malafide.7512 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 2, 2020

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    Why wouldn't you respect it?
    They have in bright shining lights said "here is what this team is about" not just in terms of requirement, but in attitude and approach to the game. They have told you flat out that you would not enjoy yourself with the atmosphere they are playing under.

    I respect what you're saying, and don't disagree in theory. Having clear communication regarding what sort of people you are looking for is fine...

    ...as long as it is reasonable. Asking for 250 KPI for Shiverpeak Pass is not reasonable, it is stupid. I don't respect stupidity.

    Further more, Strike Missions are intended to help players get into raiding for crying out loud! They are there to get around the harsh requirements of raiding, and teach people basic raid boss mechanics. And then we have people asking for raid experience to do what is intended as a raid stepping stone. That does not deserve any respect.

  • Hyrai.8720Hyrai.8720 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 2, 2020

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:
    ...as long as it is reasonable. Asking for 250 KPI for Shiverpeak Pass is not reasonable, it is stupid. I don't respect stupidity.

    it's not up to you to decide what's "stupid", period.
    i don't respect people who present their personal opinion as the only right one.

    Further more, Strike Missions are intended to help players get into raiding for crying out loud! They are there to get around the harsh requirements of raiding, and teach people basic raid boss mechanics. And then we have people asking for raid experience to do what is intended as a raid stepping stone. That does not deserve any respect.

    strike missions are there to teach people basic raid boss mechanics, yes. but they are not there to get around "the harsh requirements" of raiding in terms of lfg requirements. the "harsh requirements" in this case are your personal build and gameplay.
    experienced players are in no way obliged to take anyone's hand and teach strikes and raids.

  • @Hyrai.8720 said:
    strike missions are there to teach people basic raid boss mechanics, yes. but they are not there to get around "the harsh requirements" of raiding in terms of lfg requirements. the "harsh requirements" in this case are your personal build and gameplay.
    experienced players are in no way obliged to take anyone's hand and teach strikes and raids.

    But you don't need any of that for something like Shiverpeak Pass. It is a strike mission that requires no raid experience, no knowledge of boss mechanics, and not even a good build. And yet some people ask for players who have done a lot of raids for a mission that is super simple. I've done Shiverpeak Pass hundreds of times, usually with pugs, and I have never seen it fail. Why ask for 250 LI for something so simple?

  • Hyrai.8720Hyrai.8720 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 2, 2020

    Because usually the 250LI/kp are for WoJ and boneskinner. The squad just happens to do the other strikes aswell.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    Why wouldn't you respect it?
    They have in bright shining lights said "here is what this team is about" not just in terms of requirement, but in attitude and approach to the game. They have told you flat out that you would not enjoy yourself with the atmosphere they are playing under.

    I respect what you're saying, and don't disagree in theory. Having clear communication regarding what sort of people you are looking for is fine...

    ...as long as it is reasonable. Asking for 250 KPI for Shiverpeak Pass is not reasonable, it is stupid. I don't respect stupidity.

    Further more, Strike Missions are intended to help players get into raiding for crying out loud! They are there to get around the harsh requirements of raiding, and teach people basic raid boss mechanics. And then we have people asking for raid experience to do what is intended as a raid stepping stone. That does not deserve any respect.

    Strikes are indeed a ramp up to raid difficulty. A small segment of the population wanting only to play with likeminded and experienced people does not change the content.
    Labeling them or their actions "stupid" adds nothing positive or productive to the conversation. This kind of name calling ultimately puts you in the wrong.
    And you know what?
    I can't say I blame them.
    I run "ALL WELCOME" strikes every day and wouldn't want your kind of negativity on my squad either.

    Life's far too short to indulge in this kind irrational negativity and name calling over a video game....particularly towards people who are using a tool as intended and are doing nothing wrong according to the ToS.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    Why wouldn't you respect it?
    They have in bright shining lights said "here is what this team is about" not just in terms of requirement, but in attitude and approach to the game. They have told you flat out that you would not enjoy yourself with the atmosphere they are playing under.

    I respect what you're saying, and don't disagree in theory. Having clear communication regarding what sort of people you are looking for is fine...

    ...as long as it is reasonable. Asking for 250 KPI for Shiverpeak Pass is not reasonable, it is stupid. I don't respect stupidity.

    Further more, Strike Missions are intended to help players get into raiding for crying out loud! They are there to get around the harsh requirements of raiding, and teach people basic raid boss mechanics. And then we have people asking for raid experience to do what is intended as a raid stepping stone. That does not deserve any respect.

    You dont have to like my lfg requirements but you will follow them. If you try to join without raid kp thinking you're somehow the exception to my requirements you will promptly be kicked and have no grounds to complain. My group my rules. Dont like em? Join someone else's squad or start your own.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

    @Hyrai.8720 said:
    strike missions are there to teach people basic raid boss mechanics, yes. but they are not there to get around "the harsh requirements" of raiding in terms of lfg requirements. the "harsh requirements" in this case are your personal build and gameplay.
    experienced players are in no way obliged to take anyone's hand and teach strikes and raids.

    But you don't need any of that for something like Shiverpeak Pass. It is a strike mission that requires no raid experience, no knowledge of boss mechanics, and not even a good build. And yet some people ask for players who have done a lot of raids for a mission that is super simple. I've done Shiverpeak Pass hundreds of times, usually with pugs, and I have never seen it fail. Why ask for 250 LI for something so simple?

    Havent seen li250 once only for shiverpeak usualy its Fc=full clear so all strikes and they want the same people in the group during all of them.

  • @pninak.1069 said:
    yea I think dps meter were a mistake. It just leads to player behaving elitist. That's why I never gonna touch raids to begin with even though i know that they got tons of gw1 related content which gw2 players propably don't know about.

    I've been raiding for quite a while now. I've had like 2 toxic squads in that time. Neither of which were blaming low dps but rather failed mechanics.
    I used to think the same way about raids as you do, solely because of word of mouth.
    However I find that unless you jump into groups way above your skill level and lie about being the messiah of dps. People are okay with a bit of a shaky performance.

    On a different note: never have I ever seen someone calling out damage on a dps meter unless the person specifically asked for it. So in my experience the dps meter statement is just plain out wrong.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2020

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I guess that's why I have way less issues with LFGs. I actually respect what people write into them. You do you though.

    Don't misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not going to join a LFG when I don't meet the requirements of what they are asking (most of the time*). But I don't need to respect anyone for having outrageous LFG requirements.

    (" There was this one time a group asked for a guardian, and I joined the group anyway and told them I was a guardian disguised as a necromancer.)

    Wait. Asking for a Guardian is a outrageous LFG requirement? Or did you just like wasting people's time?

  • Mad Queen Malafide.7512Mad Queen Malafide.7512 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2020

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    Wait. Asking for a Guardian is a outrageous LFG requirement? Or did you just like wasting people's time?

    I didn't say that. They just asked for a guardian to complete their group, and I joined and told them I was "a Guardian disguised as a necromancer". We then proceeded to do the mission and complete it.

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    Wait. Asking for a Guardian is a outrageous LFG requirement? Or did you just like wasting people's time?

    I didn't say that. They just asked for a guardian to complete their group, and I joined and told them I was "a Guardian disguised as a necromancer". We then proceeded to do the mission and complete it.

    If you did that to me, you would be kicked in seconds. We asked for guardian. Why should we include you as a necro?
    Its the same as if people ask for dps and you join as a healer.

  • Cuks.8241Cuks.8241 Member ✭✭✭

    First of all I have 0 raid experience in this game so I can't really judge how hard raids are compared to strikes and what this community values as hard content. I did raid in other games, mostly Wow so I often benchmark content to that.
    I do strikes often lately, like them and just join random lfg groups.
    Strikes are relatively easy in my opinion. Everything up to Woj, including Cold War is really easy and any group can handle it. Healers are not even required. I don't even remember these strikes ever fail. Yesterday half of the cold war group DCed somewhere in the middle and we still managed to finish it, we just couldn't ignore every mechanic of the last fight.
    Woj is a bit harder in the last 25 % but it is still very seldom that it fails. It does fail sometimes but that is when you get a real bad draw of all potato group. Even those usually succeed if all have some patience to explain. In the end you only need a few people to burst that last phase, it is even better to leave the downed on the ground and just kill. Boneskinner funnily I have excellent track record but that is probably because the groups without raid requirements are rare and usually lead by experienced people.
    So all in all I feel that "everyone welcome" strikes in general never or in case of Woj and Bone very rarely fail. Even if fail happens the cause is usually not bad players but players that just give up and leave because someone downed to early or does the wrong rotation (like that matters in strikes lol) or is generally toxic.

    So yeah raid requirements are a huge overkill for content of this difficulty. Now keep in mind I don't raid in this game and assume that they are of WoW raids difficulty.
    Do I care if people require overkill requirements? Not really to each his own. It was the same in WoW where people asked for gear score for 5 man dungeons that could be soloed and were benchmarked for starter blue gear.
    I do think though that if people that lead these "LI" strike groups would just open their groups and help new players it would be good for the community in general. But that is just me, I like to help others, for example I lead pug raids in WoW which was a nightmare sometimes but also super rewarding when you killed some bosses with inexperienced group. And the funny thing was that more often I had to kick the "pro" elitists that were toxic to newbies to get anywhere instead of under performing newbies.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    Wait. Asking for a Guardian is a outrageous LFG requirement? Or did you just like wasting people's time?

    I didn't say that. They just asked for a guardian to complete their group, and I joined and told them I was "a Guardian disguised as a necromancer". We then proceeded to do the mission and complete it.

    Well, it's a good thing me and my group would never have to play with you.

  • Sykper.6583Sykper.6583 Member ✭✭✭

    I wonder if a good idea for Strikes is to have them ramp up not necessarily with mechanical difficulty but HP so that it becomes harder to get all the chests without doing more DPS. It might start steering players invested in strikes already into looking at what they are running and questioning if they are doing well on DPS.

    Another option is maybe showing 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place for damage dealt to the boss, no numbers though, just a brief little ranking of the top 3 damage dealers in the group by name. That way in the oddball group where you might not have an optimal build but do enough to hit 3rd place maybe, you can feel a sense of accomplishment?

    Just some ideas, I know this thread's sort of teetering away from the initial OP conversation.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sykper.6583 said:
    I wonder if a good idea for Strikes is to have them ramp up not necessarily with mechanical difficulty but HP so that it becomes harder to get all the chests without doing more DPS.

    A twist on this mechanic is already at play in the Cold War strike. The more damage the team does, the better the rewards. Rather than a perceived "punishment" via lack of rewards for underperforming it offers "bonus" chests if the team performs well.

    A quick run joining a half dozen pug groups will tell you the obvious....
    It's not working.
    A significant portion of the players in strikes just don't care if they are underperforming as long as they get their daily done. They are perfectly content to cheer on the rest of the team and get carried from downstate, the only reward that matters is the chest for victory.
    Incentivizing these players with a few more unidentified blues doesn't work.
    We are seeing proof of this already.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • solemn.9670solemn.9670 Member ✭✭✭

    This is yet another example of why village-mindset is superior to city-mindset.
    Why would any of this be relevant if you actually knew the people you were interacting with.
    Too many people in this world.

  • Mad Queen Malafide.7512Mad Queen Malafide.7512 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2020

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    Well, it's a good thing me and my group would never have to play with you.

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    If you did that to me, you would be kicked in seconds. We asked for guardian. Why should we include you as a necro?

    Well I thought it was funny, and so did the group.
    Maybe you two shouldn't take things so seriously?

    Its the same as if people ask for dps and you join as a healer.

    Not exactly. They asked for a dps guardian, they still got their dps.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    Well, it's a good thing me and my group would never have to play with you.

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    If you did that to me, you would be kicked in seconds. We asked for guardian. Why should we include you as a necro?

    Well I thought it was funny, and so did the group.
    Maybe you two shouldn't take things so seriously?

    Its the same as if people ask for dps and you join as a healer.

    Not exactly. They asked for a dps guardian, they still got their dps.

    And would you not take things seriously if the party decided to boot you for trolling?
    If so, there wouldn't be this conversation.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    Well, it's a good thing me and my group would never have to play with you.

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    If you did that to me, you would be kicked in seconds. We asked for guardian. Why should we include you as a necro?

    Well I thought it was funny, and so did the group.
    Maybe you two shouldn't take things so seriously?

    Just because you find something funny, doesn't mean other people will.

    And we wouldn't take it very seriously. We'd just boot you and maybe a crack a joke. You wouldn't even be in our minds in the next 10s.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    Well, it's a good thing me and my group would never have to play with you.

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    If you did that to me, you would be kicked in seconds. We asked for guardian. Why should we include you as a necro?

    Well I thought it was funny, and so did the group.
    Maybe you two shouldn't take things so seriously?

    Its the same as if people ask for dps and you join as a healer.

    Not exactly. They asked for a dps guardian, they still got their dps.

    Ever thought they might have wanted that dps guardian for one of their utilites like 10 man stability from stand your ground?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    And would you not take things seriously if the party decided to boot you for trolling?
    If so, there wouldn't be this conversation.

    We'd probably get a forum thread about raid toxicity and elitism instead

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vilin.8056 said:
    And would you not take things seriously if the party decided to boot you for trolling?
    If so, there wouldn't be this conversation.

    We'd probably get a forum thread about raid toxicity and elitism instead

    Aren't there plenty enough?

    We now live in an age where nearly everybody has legendaries yet outputting 10k dps is an act of elitism.

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    Well, it's a good thing me and my group would never have to play with you.

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    If you did that to me, you would be kicked in seconds. We asked for guardian. Why should we include you as a necro?

    Well I thought it was funny, and so did the group.
    Maybe you two shouldn't take things so seriously?

    Its the same as if people ask for dps and you join as a healer.

    Not exactly. They asked for a dps guardian, they still got their dps.

    And would you not take things seriously if the party decided to boot you for trolling?
    If so, there wouldn't be this conversation.

    There was a reason for guardin. The fact that you dont see it doesnt mean it isnt there

  • Mad Queen Malafide.7512Mad Queen Malafide.7512 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 7, 2020

    And would you not take things seriously if the party decided to boot you for trolling?
    If so, there wouldn't be this conversation.

    But they didn't, and in fact it was a very speedy clear, and we got along pretty well.
    You can throw in a lot of hypotheticals that support your position, but that's not what happened.

    There was a reason for guardin. The fact that you dont see it doesnt mean it isnt there

    But they clearly didn't need one, because we did just fine without one. Also, they already had 2 guardians on their team. I did check their party composition before I joined.

    @Linken.6345 said:
    Ever thought they might have wanted that dps guardian for one of their utilites like 10 man stability from stand your ground?

    They already had 2 guardians in their party, we didn't lose anything.

  • Cuks.8241Cuks.8241 Member ✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    I will try to explain the problems I have with strikes without raid players.
    If you want 250 Li, you will have decent dps on most of the players. Decent, not high but decent. But the main reason is that boons will be covered. And everyone would understand what his role is.

    As an example. Few days ago, me and 3 of my friends went to do strikes daily after our guild finished raids.
    We joined another squad. They were asking for a healer and dps. One of us had healer and rest took dps. I joined and saw that we probably have no quickness so I asked If I should swap to quickness chrono. Commander said yes so I swaped. Joined and put myself in separate subsquad to give quickness to 10 players. He changed me back. I thpught it was mistake when he was switching subsquads so I changed again. He put me back and locked subsquads. So I asked if he could put me in separate subsquad. He wanted to know why. I explained it and he saidit doesnt work.
    "Luckily" we were waiting 10 minutes for last person to join zhe instance so we manage to convince the commander to give it a shot.
    And during the fight, my 2 dps friends had 20k+ dps. 3rd had around 4k. I was 4th with scepter diviner chrono.
    Here lies my problem. We killed the boss. Yes. But we basicaly killed the boss alone. The 4 of us. While we had to wait 10 minutes for players to join the instance and argue about our builds with player s that have no idea about them. Its like that vide where american general has to justify submarines to senator.
    The rest of the players (6) did less damage combined then one of my dps friends. That is the reality. And sorry but carrying 6 players is not fun even when you dont get insulted that you dont know how things work.

    For some it is fun and for some it is not fun to carry. At the end you finished the strike and you learned one commander something that will maybe make him a better player and commander.
    Now this is completely up to you and your enjoyment and there is nothing wrong with it. But if people like you, able to carry half of the squad, welcomed everyone it would be definitely better for the community and it would help new players. While having LI requirements just discourages new players to even try.

    In the end strikes are easy and even more important very fast. If a public group can get it done, it gets a bit comical when people ask for requirements from the pinnacle of PVE difficulty.