Ancestral Grace discussion

I know I'm late to the party and I assumed this might have already been discussed but I would like to draw attention to the druid staff skill "Ancestral Grace".On July 16th of last year, the evasion of the skill was completely removed and the CD increased except if you're healing another ally. This was a change that affected all game modes.There are 3 things that bother me with that particular change.

The first is the general comment for the Ranger changes for that patch which was the following:"In this update we've made some reductions to tone down the strength of some soulbeast PvP and WvW builds. While we believe the builds and playstyles have a solid place in the game and don't want to take them out of play, certain elements are a bit too far over the edge. The skill "Sic 'Em!" is providing a damage modifier that is significantly higher than any other single persistent bonus damage increase, so we're reducing the bonus to match other similar skills in a competitive setting. This reduction only occurs while merged with your pet. We're also reducing access to the unblockable effect provided by some skills and traits in order to create more opportunities for others."As you can see, the proposed changes would have aimed towards nerfing soulbeast in PVP modes. I don't see any connection between these motivations and the nerf on ancestral grace. And I don't think that the cd reduction on healing something justifies removing the evasion.

Secondly, the description of the skill is the following:"Become a wisp of natural energy, traversing to the targeted location". For me, it does not make sense that you can hit natural energy.

And last, the skill animation, duration and purpose are the same (- the healing part obviously) as the Celestial Dash skill that you get during Cairn encounter (special action key) and which is an evade.

To summarize:

• If this was somehow intended to affect only PVP modes, why was it not split (although I never heard about a staff druid build being an issue)?
• If the conditional CD reduction is really too strong (Ancestral Grace CD was 15 seconds before Oct 2016) to keep the evasion, the skill should be completely reworked so the animation matches what actually happens in the game.

This was a really odd and unexpected change as no clear motivation was given and it removed a part of the druid identity in my opinion.

I do believe this was changed due to the skill Ele has 'Ride The Lightning' which is 600 range, 30 sec CD, no evade frames, not a blast finisher while Ancestral grace has 1200 range, a blast finisher, it had Evade frames, 15 sec CD, it healed allies around you so as you can see, this skill was way better than RTL which had a shorter CD and longer range before it got nerfed because it could get from A to B much quicker than anyone else

First, both skills are 1200 range (you can use either of them to do the jump skip in Twisted Castle), Ride the lightning does damage and the CD is halved when damaging enemies. I would not say that ancestral grace is way better but that they fit different purposes (although they could add a blast finisher on RTL).We could also compare them to blink (instant 1200 range break stun with 30 sec CD in PVE), shadowstep (double instant 1200 range + break stun + removes 3 conditions for higher CD), necrotic traversal (instant 1200 range + break stun + lifeforce + blast + poison for similar CD) or lightning flash (900 instant, can be cast while CC'ed).I think that RTL was nerfed to align to the 1200 range (1550 before) of all the other shadowstep/dash skills but the change was done in 2013 before Ancestral Grace even existed.To get from A to B, you will never be faster than a thief with SB so I don't think that point is really relevant.I agree that some characteristics should be aligned (CD, finishers, range) but each skill should have specificity (break stuns, instant, evade, damage, condition cleanse, ...), otherwise you are just designing the same skill over and over again.If mobility was the issue, I don't see how the removal of evade frames fixed that. Changing the range to 900 and keeping the evasion would make more sense considering the description of the skill.

@Akronox.8251 said:First, both skills are 1200 range (you can use either of them to do the jump skip in Twisted Castle), Ride the lightning does damage and the CD is halved when damaging enemies. I would not say that ancestral grace is way better but that they fit different purposes (although they could add a blast finisher on RTL).We could also compare them to blink (instant 1200 range break stun with 30 sec CD in PVE), shadowstep (double instant 1200 range + break stun + removes 3 conditions for higher CD), necrotic traversal (instant 1200 range + break stun + lifeforce + blast + poison for similar CD) or lightning flash (900 instant, can be cast while CC'ed).I think that RTL was nerfed to align to the 1200 range (1550 before) of all the other shadowstep/dash skills but the change was done in 2013 before Ancestral Grace even existed.To get from A to B, you will never be faster than a thief with SB so I don't think that point is really relevant.I agree that some characteristics should be aligned (CD, finishers, range) but each skill should have specificity (break stuns, instant, evade, damage, condition cleanse, ...), otherwise you are just designing the same skill over and over again.If mobility was the issue, I don't see how the removal of evade frames fixed that. Changing the range to 900 and keeping the evasion would make more sense considering the description of the skill.

It got changed in all gamemodes because you cant skill split how the skill functions, only numbers.

There is also the philosophy that a skill should work the same in all gamemodes because it makes it easier for new players to switch gamemodes.

Its true that druid and especially staff needs a rework for it to work in PvP/WvW.

But there is also the danger of creating an unkillable bunker again.

I thought there was more flexibility to adapt skills but it makes sense and I agree that skills should have similar perks in all game modes.But I don't get why this was packaged with what was supposed to be a soulbeast nerf.I don't see how changing one staff skill would create an unkillable bunker though, especially in the current state of PVP.

It's not just about a single staff skill. Druid already has alot of survivability thanks to all the healing packed in the celestial avatar mechanic. Then the staff also is loaded with ways to survive like:

• pulsing healing on skill 2
• mobility on skill 3
• condi cleanse and cc on skill 4
• projectile hate that makes projectiles heal you on skill 5, also granting regeneration and providing a water combo field for additional healing

Druid in general has to get adjusted with care, since the spec can easily become a hardcore bunker if overtuned.And while I understand your reasoning that you shouldn't be able to hit natural energy, like already mentioned there are other skills like it which still let you hit the target, like ride the lightning.

With it's healing and a 1200 range dash, the skill already provides enough survivability. I don't think it really needs to get the evade frames added back.

None of the more recent druid nerfs had any clear motivation (in pvp at least).

LOL, I don't know why people think Ancestral Grace is actually good when Holy Strike (Staff 2 Guardian) is a 1200 ranged option that do the same thing (Same heal if used 2x times)

The only difference between Ancestral Grace and Holy Strike is the movement.

The skills from the Staff are super lacking and Ancestral Grace needs the evade back. Druid is neutered and it's what they wanted.

@Krispera.5087 said:LOL, I don't know why people think Ancestral Grace is actually good when Holy Strike (Staff 2 Guardian) is a 1200 ranged option that do the same thing (Same heal if used 2x times)

The only difference between Ancestral Grace and Holy Strike is the movement.

The skills from the Staff are super lacking and Ancestral Grace needs the evade back. Druid is neutered and it's what they wanted.

You shouldn't undersell a 1200 range dash. What people are mostly concerned about (I guess) is the druid's survivability, a dash contributes to that by opening a gap to kite, all while also healing the druid. Druid also has easier access to a water combo field to blast for additional healing.

Druid has alot of survivability, you get the celestial avatar form with 5 healing skills to spam for a period of time. Additionally the staff that is packed with healing and other defensive mechanics. And mobility also can be a defensive mechanic, some classes rely on it for their survivability like elementalists, for example.

The staff is still stacked with defensive mechanics, even without the evade frames.

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Krispera.5087 said:LOL, I don't know why people think Ancestral Grace is actually good when Holy Strike (Staff 2 Guardian) is a 1200 ranged option that do the same thing (Same heal if used 2x times)

The only difference between Ancestral Grace and Holy Strike is the movement.

The skills from the Staff are super lacking and Ancestral Grace needs the evade back. Druid is neutered and it's what they wanted.

I don't think we are playing the same game at all.

Staff 1 doesn't work on yourself.Staff 2 needs a target.Staff 3 is the only thing that work on yourself.Staff 4 is slow, non impactful, hard skillshotStaff 5 is so small people that people over you can still shoot you.

CA 1 can barely be landedCA 2 has a delayCA 3 is fineCA 4 is fineCA 5 is whatever

Druid is only useful things are Staff 3 (blast Staff 5), CA 3 (blast CA 2) and CA 4. The rest is zzz. The whole kit is outdated.

When they removed evade from Ancestral Grace, nerfed pets and put Serpent's Strike behind Monarch's Leap, I stopped playing Druid in PvP.

@Krispera.5087 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Krispera.5087 said:LOL, I don't know why people think Ancestral Grace is actually good when Holy Strike (Staff 2 Guardian) is a 1200 ranged option that do the same thing (Same heal if used 2x times)

The only difference between Ancestral Grace and Holy Strike is the movement.

The skills from the Staff are super lacking and Ancestral Grace needs the evade back. Druid is neutered and it's what they wanted.

Staff 2 needs a target, but it is still a constant stream of healing if your enemy is attacking you in melee.Staff 4 still provides you a cleanse from movement impairing conditions even if you don't hit the CC part of it.Staff 5 provides projectile hate and while it can get played around, it also at least provides regeneration and a water field to blast.

Then also stuff like invisibility from druid, daze on swap to staff. Additional sources of blinds, heals, CC (roots) and others from the trait line.Druid is packed with defense, you can't really argue that.

@Kodama.6453 said:Staff 2 needs a target, but it is still a constant stream of healing if your enemy is attacking you in melee.Staff 4 still provides you a cleanse from movement impairing conditions even if you don't hit the CC part of it.Staff 5 provides projectile hate and while it can get played around, it also at least provides regeneration and a water field to blast.

Then also stuff like invisibility from druid, daze on swap to staff. Additional sources of blinds, heals, CC (roots) and others from the trait line.Druid is packed with defense, you can't really argue that.Druid has some sleeper troll utilities like Ancient seeds, but staff is none of those.

• Staff 2 is affected by projectile hate. the range for the heal is too short, you need to stay on top of your enemy. The heal is not that good if you are being hit for 2K autos from the warrior.
• Staff 4 does not work on self.
• Staff 5 high cooldown, low duration, very small area. it is ignored most of the time because of the lack of real uses.

After all the nerfs to Druid healing survivability of the druid is not an issue. Armor sets like Trailblazers or Dire are the issue and not the class, that happens exactly on the same way for trailblazers mesmers, necros or renegades. You can not see any druids in competitive gameplay then think sure there is a reason for it.

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Krispera.5087 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Krispera.5087 said:LOL, I don't know why people think Ancestral Grace is actually good when Holy Strike (Staff 2 Guardian) is a 1200 ranged option that do the same thing (Same heal if used 2x times)

The only difference between Ancestral Grace and Holy Strike is the movement.

The skills from the Staff are super lacking and Ancestral Grace needs the evade back. Druid is neutered and it's what they wanted.

Staff 2 and staff 4 is god awful.

Staff2 - healing range is 130. And nobody in their right mind will stay in that range for the heals as it’s quite difficult to apply pressure against melee with staff. Being that close will get you hammered by high melee bursts

Staff 4 - cast time too long to cleanse condis, you’re usually hit by a hard cc before it casts. The cast time + speed and animation of the vines means the immob it applies pretty much never hits.

@kiwituatara.6053 said:

Of course you don't want to stay in melee range with staff. But if you are fighting an enemy with a melee weapon, then they want to stay in melee range of you. Skill 2 counteracts the damage dealt by melee enemies, that's what I am saying. If you fail to keep the enemy at distance, then the skill still provides you defense in form of pulsing healing.

All I am saying is that if you really want to buff staff, then giving it evade frames is most likely not the best way to do it. With all the defensive mechanics and healing, druid has the potential to easily become an insane bunker spec. Buffing staff is fine, I just disagree with giving it back the evade frames on skill 2. They should come up with a different buff instead.

@kiwituatara.6053 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Krispera.5087 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Krispera.5087 said:LOL, I don't know why people think Ancestral Grace is actually good when Holy Strike (Staff 2 Guardian) is a 1200 ranged option that do the same thing (Same heal if used 2x times)

The only difference between Ancestral Grace and Holy Strike is the movement.

The skills from the Staff are super lacking and Ancestral Grace needs the evade back. Druid is neutered and it's what they wanted.

100% the actual definition of staff. Druid is beyond salvation at this point anyway.

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:I do believe this was changed due to the skill Ele has 'Ride The Lightning' which is 600 range, 30 sec CD, no evade frames, not a blast finisher while Ancestral grace has 1200 range, a blast finisher, it had Evade frames, 15 sec CD, it healed allies around you so as you can see, this skill was way better than RTL which had a shorter CD and longer range before it got nerfed because it could get from A to B much quicker than anyone else

You cant really cross compare classes though, ele has access to various forms of stability, has invulnerables, fiery greatsword which gives mobility/aoe/evade frames while dosing, can teleport.. you get the picture. Each class has to be looked at individually in relation to its other skills - cross comparisons don't work.

@Strider.7849 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:I do believe this was changed due to the skill Ele has 'Ride The Lightning' which is 600 range, 30 sec CD, no evade frames, not a blast finisher while Ancestral grace has 1200 range, a blast finisher, it had Evade frames, 15 sec CD, it healed allies around you so as you can see, this skill was way better than RTL which had a shorter CD and longer range before it got nerfed because it could get from A to B much quicker than anyone else

Stability on Weaver is an absolute joke, fgs which is at the majority of the time used as a gap closer on a 3 min CD, but the reason on why it was nerfed was it's similarities with RtL

amazing movement skill