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The Death of Thief

darren.1064darren.1064 Member ✭✭✭
edited April 20, 2020 in PVP

I would like to start this by saying I've been playing GW2 since launch. I used to play PvP back in the hotjoin days before AT's, and Ranked PvP were a thing. I'm a rank 560 in PvP and have played a total of 15,438 games across all of my characters and 10,079 of those were played on my thief. I've never felt like PvP was as broken before as it is now, and I have also never felt like I should make a post on the Guild Wars 2 Forums until now.

During my time on Guild Wars, I've taken a few breaks but I can firmly say that I remember the days when thief was the #1 1v1 class. Seeing as how thief has always had the highest learning curve, it only makes sense that the most complicated class to play would be the best at fighting 1v1s. That point still survives to this day as thief remains the hardest profession to play (aside from gimmick builds that occasionally pop up through profession exploits that also occur on other professions.) Over time the power creep has set in well for other classes while leading to the decline in play for other classes. Over just the past few months, ranger is the prime example as there was never a prime balance patch where they went from the red headed stepchild to the families golden child; over time they had a bunch of smaller positive changes that really helped progress the professions damage, sustain, and popularity. The opposite can be said about thief, the class that 5 years ago was the best class to 1v1 on. A very long series of balance patches have forced thieves into a pvp class that has been pigeonholed into the sole purpose of decapping and +1-ing fights. While there's nothing wrong with this particular role, it is shameful that no other class has been pushed this far into a single monotonous role. Going through each of the nine classes:

    1. Elementalist - have the speed to +1, have the range to also team fight with damage or godly support on tempest and can also 1v1 with ease
    1. Necromancer - Don't even get me started. Near unkillable at times and can fight entire 1v3s for large amounts of time. Can +1
    1. Mesmer - Because the massive nerf finally hit mesmer and mirages, the elite and core spec are also teetering on the edge of being viable
    1. Ranger - I don't think I even need to talk about this class
    1. Engineer - Still a solid profession right now that is being saved by holosmith's damage and sustainability; can 1v1, hold points or _1
    1. Thief - Can simply +1 or decap points; near liability in team fights due to virtual 0 toughness or vitality and reduced damage that is completely laughable
    1. Guardian - Untouchable support class that also has access to damage; they're viable in every part of ranked PvP
    1. Warrior - Have builds that can hold points, win 1v1s with ease, and while a tad bit slower they are great 1v1ers with their plethora of CC skills
    1. Revenant - Current tanks that can 1v1, team fight, and one of the best +1 professions

None of these other classes have been pigeonholed into the same constraints that Thief has. As a top 250 PvP player I have seen nearly all of the thief meta builds, and the glory days were when you could 1v1 or (before this current balance patch) simply do damage. The current big problem with thief is obviously
A: the damage is absolutely terrible and you cannot win any 1v1s. Before this balance patch thieves struggled with winning 1v1s because the profession has been on a steady decline in every category possible aside from mobility while every other profession has received plentiful buffs in damage and sustainability.
B: A majority of initiative a thief uses is spent on defensive purposes as opposed to offensive purposes. Defensive purposes would include going into stealth. Black Powder Shot alone costs 6 initiative to use and that doesn't include the Heartseeker, Bound, or Cluster Bomb that the thief is also forced to use to finish going into stealth. With the current playing style for everybody unfortunately being low damage and tanky builds, initiative is a big problem for thieves as we're forced into extended fights where the thief inevitably doesn't do enough upfront damage to kill the person and so the fight drags on until the thief inevitably runs out of initiative and dies of attrition. Hence where thieves are forced into the +1 nature that no other class has been forced into because they're more properly balanced.

The "High Risk, High Reward" motto that was originally used for thieves has become a sham as even using a berserker amulet, auto-attacks do about 300-500 damage each. Backstab does less than 5000 damage and that's for D/P: one of the thieve's most offensively powerful weapon sets. However thieves are one of the easiest classes to kill due to having only 1 skill that supplies stability for a single second coupled with a low health pool and no extra toughness. Core necro is just one example of a class that can keep thief fear-locked for an eternity as the thief's health quickly dwindles away from other conditions. Power rangers, mainly power soulbeasts are melting thieves in a split second with nothing to save them. Guardians and elementalists can simply burn them to death. Engineers win the battle of attrition. Mesmer and some warrior builds are the only two professions that thief has a feasible chance against. Not to mention that that is only sometimes with warrior.

I'll try to keep this short, but in short: The thief that was born into Guild Wars 2 has died. The best 1v1 class with the highest skill floor and ceiling was wasted.

<13456712

Comments

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Thief is pretty niche rn and if the teams I played with had a comp that would allow for it I would, probably sd and sometimes shadowportal thief. But they just don’t and teams that can perform on a high level with thief atm are either rare or running a comp entirely around burst

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A more complicated class shouldnt be better. That would make picking anything that is "easy" a mistake. Thats a terrible idea. Anyway, yes, thief is a decap and +1-bot. Thats the price it pays for having shortbow 5. I dont like it either, but there are people who enjoy that playstyle, and for the rest of us, there are other classes to play. Power Rev is kind of like the original thief. Or Spellbreaker, or as I like to call it, "Fat thief".

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    None of these other classes have been pigeonholed into the same constraints that Thief has. As a top 250 PvP player I have seen nearly all of the thief meta builds, and the glory days were when you could 1v1 or (before this current balance patch) simply do damage.

    wait, no hate or anything, if a thief can 1v1 with steal and shortbow 5 and shadow step
    why would any serious team take a holo or warrior for?
    just talking logic here, enlighten me some

    Not that this neccessarily applies here, but stronger teamfighting or 2v2ing? Thief is a "selfish" class by design, it doesnt really give any buffs or effects to its teammates. Engineers and Warriors do.

  • darren.1064darren.1064 Member ✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    A more complicated class shouldnt be better. That would make picking anything that is "easy" a mistake. Thats a terrible idea. Anyway, yes, thief is a decap and +1-bot. Thats the price it pays for having shortbow 5. I dont like it either, but there are people who enjoy that playstyle, and for the rest of us, there are other classes to play. Power Rev is kind of like the original thief. Or Spellbreaker, or as I like to call it, "Fat thief".

    While I agree that thief SHOULD be able to play this particular niche play style, is it really fitting that EVERY class is forced into this play style? As I said, the class was the best 1v1 profession for a reason. It has the highest skill ceiling and floor and as such, you should be able to do more than simply decap points and +1 others when you weren't simply limited to that before. As GW2 has grown and evolved, every other professional has been able to do more and add an additional job they were able to carry out in PvP. HoT allowed necros to have more focused damage, HoT allowed engineers to bunk points, HoT allowed rangers to heal their entire party and bunk points. So why should the profession that used to have an entirely different job be forced into another monotonous one simply because of bad balance?

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 21, 2020

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @darren.1064 said:
    I would like to start this by saying I've been playing GW2 since launch. I used to play PvP back in the hotjoin days before AT's, and Ranked PvP were a thing. I'm a rank 560 in PvP and have played a total of 15,438 games across all of my characters and 10,079 of those were played on my thief. I've never felt like PvP was as broken before as it is now, and I have also never felt like I should make a post on the Guild Wars 2 Forums until now.

    During my time on Guild Wars, I've taken a few breaks but I can firmly say that I remember the days when thief was the #1 1v1 class. Seeing as how thief has always had the highest learning curve, it only makes sense that the most complicated class to play would be the best at fighting 1v1s. That point still survives to this day as thief remains the hardest profession to play (aside from gimmick builds that occasionally pop up through profession exploits that also occur on other professions.) Over time the power creep has set in well for other classes while leading to the decline in play for other classes. Over just the past few months, ranger is the prime example as there was never a prime balance patch where they went from the red headed stepchild to the families golden child; over time they had a bunch of smaller positive changes that really helped progress the professions damage, sustain, and popularity. The opposite can be said about thief, the class that 5 years ago was the best class to 1v1 on. A very long series of balance patches have forced thieves into a pvp class that has been pigeonholed into the sole purpose of decapping and +1-ing fights. While there's nothing wrong with this particular role, it is shameful that no other class has been pushed this far into a single monotonous role. Going through each of the nine classes:

      1. Elementalist - have the speed to +1, have the range to also team fight with damage or godly support on tempest and can also 1v1 with ease
      1. Necromancer - Don't even get me started. Near unkillable at times and can fight entire 1v3s for large amounts of time. Can +1
      1. Mesmer - Because the massive nerf _ finally_ hit mesmer and mirages, the elite and core spec are also teetering on the edge of being viable
      1. Ranger - I don't think I even need to talk about this class
      1. Engineer - Still a solid profession right now that is being saved by holosmith's damage and sustainability; can 1v1, hold points or _1
      1. Thief - Can simply +1 or decap points; near liability in team fights due to virtual 0 toughness or vitality and reduced damage that is completely laughable
      1. Guardian - Untouchable support class that also has access to damage; they're viable in every part of ranked PvP
      1. Warrior - Have builds that can hold points, win 1v1s with ease, and while a tad bit slower they are great 1v1ers with their plethora of CC skills
      1. Revenant - Current tanks that can 1v1, team fight, and one of the best +1 professions

    None of these other classes have been pigeonholed into the same constraints that Thief has. As a top 250 PvP player I have seen nearly all of the thief meta builds, and the glory days were when you could 1v1 or (before this current balance patch) simply do damage. The current big problem with thief is obviously
    A: the damage is absolutely terrible and you cannot win any 1v1s. Before this balance patch thieves struggled with winning 1v1s because the profession has been on a steady decline in every category possible aside from mobility while every other profession has received plentiful buffs in damage and sustainability.
    B: A majority of initiative a thief uses is spent on defensive purposes as opposed to offensive purposes. Defensive purposes would include going into stealth. Black Powder Shot alone costs 6 initiative to use and that doesn't include the Heartseeker, Bound, or Cluster Bomb that the thief is also forced to use to finish going into stealth. With the current playing style for everybody unfortunately being low damage and tanky builds, initiative is a big problem for thieves as we're forced into extended fights where the thief inevitably doesn't do enough upfront damage to kill the person and so the fight drags on until the thief inevitably runs out of initiative and dies of attrition. Hence where thieves are forced into the +1 nature that no other class has been forced into because they're more properly balanced.

    The "High Risk, High Reward" motto that was originally used for thieves has become a sham as even using a berserker amulet, auto-attacks do about 300-500 damage each. Backstab does less than 5000 damage and that's for D/P: one of the thieve's most offensively powerful weapon sets. However thieves are one of the easiest classes to kill due to having only 1 skill that supplies stability for a single second coupled with a low health pool and no extra toughness. Core necro is just one example of a class that can keep thief fear-locked for an eternity as the thief's health quickly dwindles away from other conditions. Power rangers, mainly power soulbeasts are melting thieves in a split second with nothing to save them. Guardians and elementalists can simply burn them to death. Engineers win the battle of attrition. Mesmer and some warrior builds are the only two professions that thief has a feasible chance against. Not to mention that that is only sometimes with warrior.

    I'll try to keep this short, but in short: The thief that was born into Guild Wars 2 has died. The best 1v1 class with the highest skill floor and ceiling was wasted.

    Yeah pretty much, teams wrecking the game just as the past teams did. This is one community where the team would be far better off as well as the game if they literally ignored forums etc and just went of high lv game play, the community isn't smart enough to know the difference between annoying and op and on top are vindictive and enjoy getting their counter classes ruined regardless of how it effects all the players that enjoy it. Community deserves the game as it is cuz they helped mold it,most not all.

    Lets make a deal .
    You get more burst but you loose 30% damage reduction + Weakness :
    Unhindered Combatant+ Weakening Strikes+ Marauder's Resilience
    Deal ?

    With 3 moves , they will become an Assassin class like Core

    Hellsing Abridged, JapAudio: Soul Eater, Arpeggio of Blue Steel,Code Geass , Seto no Hanayome(startfrom2ndep)
    Baka to Test,Pani Pon,He Is My Master(2nd) ,Azumanga Daioh ,Kamen no Maid Guy,Kenichi, Ouran Koukou
    Yamato Nadeshiko, Haré+Guu(5th)..Old animes: BLUE NOAH,Plawres Sanshiro,Sexy Commando

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    None of these other classes have been pigeonholed into the same constraints that Thief has. As a top 250 PvP player I have seen nearly all of the thief meta builds, and the glory days were when you could 1v1 or (before this current balance patch) simply do damage.

    wait, no hate or anything, if a thief can 1v1 with steal and shortbow 5 and shadow step
    why would any serious team take a holo or warrior for?
    just talking logic here, enlighten me some

    Not that this neccessarily applies here, but stronger teamfighting or 2v2ing? Thief is a "selfish" class by design, it doesnt really give any buffs or effects to its teammates. Engineers and Warriors do.

    but warrior has 0 use in 2v2 and teamfight that's why it's been pigeonholded into side node 1v1 since 2012

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    None of these other classes have been pigeonholed into the same constraints that Thief has. As a top 250 PvP player I have seen nearly all of the thief meta builds, and the glory days were when you could 1v1 or (before this current balance patch) simply do damage.

    wait, no hate or anything, if a thief can 1v1 with steal and shortbow 5 and shadow step
    why would any serious team take a holo or warrior for?
    just talking logic here, enlighten me some

    Not that this neccessarily applies here, but stronger teamfighting or 2v2ing? Thief is a "selfish" class by design, it doesnt really give any buffs or effects to its teammates. Engineers and Warriors do.

    but warrior has 0 use in 2v2 and teamfight that's why it's been pigeonholded into side node 1v1 since 2012

    Uh, it really hasnt been. It has a lot of use in 2v2 and teamfights, from support to just its AoE CC.

  • darren.1064darren.1064 Member ✭✭✭

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @darren.1064 said:
    I would like to start this by saying I've been playing GW2 since launch. I used to play PvP back in the hotjoin days before AT's, and Ranked PvP were a thing. I'm a rank 560 in PvP and have played a total of 15,438 games across all of my characters and 10,079 of those were played on my thief. I've never felt like PvP was as broken before as it is now, and I have also never felt like I should make a post on the Guild Wars 2 Forums until now.

    During my time on Guild Wars, I've taken a few breaks but I can firmly say that I remember the days when thief was the #1 1v1 class. Seeing as how thief has always had the highest learning curve, it only makes sense that the most complicated class to play would be the best at fighting 1v1s. That point still survives to this day as thief remains the hardest profession to play (aside from gimmick builds that occasionally pop up through profession exploits that also occur on other professions.) Over time the power creep has set in well for other classes while leading to the decline in play for other classes. Over just the past few months, ranger is the prime example as there was never a prime balance patch where they went from the red headed stepchild to the families golden child; over time they had a bunch of smaller positive changes that really helped progress the professions damage, sustain, and popularity. The opposite can be said about thief, the class that 5 years ago was the best class to 1v1 on. A very long series of balance patches have forced thieves into a pvp class that has been pigeonholed into the sole purpose of decapping and +1-ing fights. While there's nothing wrong with this particular role, it is shameful that no other class has been pushed this far into a single monotonous role. Going through each of the nine classes:

      1. Elementalist - have the speed to +1, have the range to also team fight with damage or godly support on tempest and can also 1v1 with ease
      1. Necromancer - Don't even get me started. Near unkillable at times and can fight entire 1v3s for large amounts of time. Can +1
      1. Mesmer - Because the massive nerf _ finally_ hit mesmer and mirages, the elite and core spec are also teetering on the edge of being viable
      1. Ranger - I don't think I even need to talk about this class
      1. Engineer - Still a solid profession right now that is being saved by holosmith's damage and sustainability; can 1v1, hold points or _1
      1. Thief - Can simply +1 or decap points; near liability in team fights due to virtual 0 toughness or vitality and reduced damage that is completely laughable
      1. Guardian - Untouchable support class that also has access to damage; they're viable in every part of ranked PvP
      1. Warrior - Have builds that can hold points, win 1v1s with ease, and while a tad bit slower they are great 1v1ers with their plethora of CC skills
      1. Revenant - Current tanks that can 1v1, team fight, and one of the best +1 professions

    None of these other classes have been pigeonholed into the same constraints that Thief has. As a top 250 PvP player I have seen nearly all of the thief meta builds, and the glory days were when you could 1v1 or (before this current balance patch) simply do damage. The current big problem with thief is obviously
    A: the damage is absolutely terrible and you cannot win any 1v1s. Before this balance patch thieves struggled with winning 1v1s because the profession has been on a steady decline in every category possible aside from mobility while every other profession has received plentiful buffs in damage and sustainability.
    B: A majority of initiative a thief uses is spent on defensive purposes as opposed to offensive purposes. Defensive purposes would include going into stealth. Black Powder Shot alone costs 6 initiative to use and that doesn't include the Heartseeker, Bound, or Cluster Bomb that the thief is also forced to use to finish going into stealth. With the current playing style for everybody unfortunately being low damage and tanky builds, initiative is a big problem for thieves as we're forced into extended fights where the thief inevitably doesn't do enough upfront damage to kill the person and so the fight drags on until the thief inevitably runs out of initiative and dies of attrition. Hence where thieves are forced into the +1 nature that no other class has been forced into because they're more properly balanced.

    The "High Risk, High Reward" motto that was originally used for thieves has become a sham as even using a berserker amulet, auto-attacks do about 300-500 damage each. Backstab does less than 5000 damage and that's for D/P: one of the thieve's most offensively powerful weapon sets. However thieves are one of the easiest classes to kill due to having only 1 skill that supplies stability for a single second coupled with a low health pool and no extra toughness. Core necro is just one example of a class that can keep thief fear-locked for an eternity as the thief's health quickly dwindles away from other conditions. Power rangers, mainly power soulbeasts are melting thieves in a split second with nothing to save them. Guardians and elementalists can simply burn them to death. Engineers win the battle of attrition. Mesmer and some warrior builds are the only two professions that thief has a feasible chance against. Not to mention that that is only sometimes with warrior.

    I'll try to keep this short, but in short: The thief that was born into Guild Wars 2 has died. The best 1v1 class with the highest skill floor and ceiling was wasted.

    Yeah pretty much, teams wrecking the game just as the past teams did. This is one community where the team would be far better off as well as the game if they literally ignored forums etc and just went of high lv game play, the community isn't smart enough to know the difference between annoying and op and on top are vindictive and enjoy getting their counter classes ruined regardless of how it effects all the players that enjoy it. Community deserves the game as it is cuz they helped mold it,most not all.

    Lets make a deal .
    You get more burst but you loose 30% damage reduction + Weakness :
    Unhindered Combatant+ Weakening Strikes+ Marauder's Resilience
    Deal ?

    Weakening Strikes and Marauder's Resilience have only been around for a year... So we've already been playing without them for years aside for the past few months. It's not like they're traits we've always had.

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 20, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    None of these other classes have been pigeonholed into the same constraints that Thief has. As a top 250 PvP player I have seen nearly all of the thief meta builds, and the glory days were when you could 1v1 or (before this current balance patch) simply do damage.

    wait, no hate or anything, if a thief can 1v1 with steal and shortbow 5 and shadow step
    why would any serious team take a holo or warrior for?
    just talking logic here, enlighten me some

    Not that this neccessarily applies here, but stronger teamfighting or 2v2ing? Thief is a "selfish" class by design, it doesnt really give any buffs or effects to its teammates. Engineers and Warriors do.

    but warrior has 0 use in 2v2 and teamfight that's why it's been pigeonholded into side node 1v1 since 2012

    Uh, it really hasnt been. It has a lot of use in 2v2 and teamfights, from support to just its AoE CC.

    Why would you run warrior team fight or 2v2 when you have FB/necro/holo/ele/rev

  • darren.1064darren.1064 Member ✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    A more complicated class shouldnt be better. That would make picking anything that is "easy" a mistake. Thats a terrible idea. Anyway, yes, thief is a decap and +1-bot. Thats the price it pays for having shortbow 5. I dont like it either, but there are people who enjoy that playstyle, and for the rest of us, there are other classes to play. Power Rev is kind of like the original thief. Or Spellbreaker, or as I like to call it, "Fat thief".

    While I agree that thief SHOULD be able to play this particular niche play style, is it really fitting that EVERY class is forced into this play style? As I said, the class was the best 1v1 profession for a reason. It has the highest skill ceiling and floor and as such, you should be able to do more than simply decap points and +1 others when you weren't simply limited to that before. As GW2 has grown and evolved, every other professional has been able to do more and add an additional job they were able to carry out in PvP. HoT allowed necros to have more focused damage, HoT allowed engineers to bunk points, HoT allowed rangers to heal their entire party and bunk points. So why should the profession that used to have an entirely different job be forced into another monotonous one simply because of bad balance?

    The trouble is that, as long as shortbow 5 exists, you cant give thief more. If they were deadly duelists and could move accross the map faster than anyone else, that would be problematic. The other classes can do multiple things, but not at once. But for thief? Any thief carrying a shortbow will be able to do the decapping and +1ing. And due to initiative, there is no real incentive to have 2 damage weaponsets.

    I can see this point but it's the same as mesmer using Portal. Portal among mesmers was a staple for years.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @darren.1064 said:
    I can see this point but it's the same as mesmer using Portal. Portal among mesmers was a staple for years.

    I love seeing high level teams having to slot a mesmer in their comp just because the opponent team has one.

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 21, 2020

    @darren.1064 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    A more complicated class shouldnt be better. That would make picking anything that is "easy" a mistake. Thats a terrible idea. Anyway, yes, thief is a decap and +1-bot. Thats the price it pays for having shortbow 5. I dont like it either, but there are people who enjoy that playstyle, and for the rest of us, there are other classes to play. Power Rev is kind of like the original thief. Or Spellbreaker, or as I like to call it, "Fat thief".

    While I agree that thief SHOULD be able to play this particular niche play style, is it really fitting that EVERY class is forced into this play style? As I said, the class was the best 1v1 profession for a reason. It has the highest skill ceiling and floor and as such, you should be able to do more than simply decap points and +1 others when you weren't simply limited to that before. As GW2 has grown and evolved, every other professional has been able to do more and add an additional job they were able to carry out in PvP. HoT allowed necros to have more focused damage, HoT allowed engineers to bunk points, HoT allowed rangers to heal their entire party and bunk points. So why should the profession that used to have an entirely different job be forced into another monotonous one simply because of bad balance?

    The trouble is that, as long as shortbow 5 exists, you cant give thief more. If they were deadly duelists and could move accross the map faster than anyone else, that would be problematic. The other classes can do multiple things, but not at once. But for thief? Any thief carrying a shortbow will be able to do the decapping and +1ing. And due to initiative, there is no real incentive to have 2 damage weaponsets.

    I can see this point but it's the same as mesmer using Portal. Portal among mesmers was a staple for years.

    it's not just shortbow, steal plays a huge part.
    shortbow's mobility alone doesnt make thief the king of roaming since 2012, shortbow 40% steal 60%, trickery steal completely ignores any good positioning, buffing or casting. if any holo/ele/fb comes +1 you can easily kit their damage, but steal is instant damage that also rips your protection/resistance and cancel any self defense you about to do.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @darren.1064 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    A more complicated class shouldnt be better. That would make picking anything that is "easy" a mistake. Thats a terrible idea. Anyway, yes, thief is a decap and +1-bot. Thats the price it pays for having shortbow 5. I dont like it either, but there are people who enjoy that playstyle, and for the rest of us, there are other classes to play. Power Rev is kind of like the original thief. Or Spellbreaker, or as I like to call it, "Fat thief".

    While I agree that thief SHOULD be able to play this particular niche play style, is it really fitting that EVERY class is forced into this play style? As I said, the class was the best 1v1 profession for a reason. It has the highest skill ceiling and floor and as such, you should be able to do more than simply decap points and +1 others when you weren't simply limited to that before. As GW2 has grown and evolved, every other professional has been able to do more and add an additional job they were able to carry out in PvP. HoT allowed necros to have more focused damage, HoT allowed engineers to bunk points, HoT allowed rangers to heal their entire party and bunk points. So why should the profession that used to have an entirely different job be forced into another monotonous one simply because of bad balance?

    The trouble is that, as long as shortbow 5 exists, you cant give thief more. If they were deadly duelists and could move accross the map faster than anyone else, that would be problematic. The other classes can do multiple things, but not at once. But for thief? Any thief carrying a shortbow will be able to do the decapping and +1ing. And due to initiative, there is no real incentive to have 2 damage weaponsets.

    I can see this point but it's the same as mesmer using Portal. Portal among mesmers was a staple for years.

    Portal is great, insane even, but its not got quite the impact shortbow 5 has. Mesmer with Portal still has limitations in its ability to rotate around the map. It doesnt cause the same issues a great duelist with shortbow 5 does.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    A more complicated class shouldnt be better. That would make picking anything that is "easy" a mistake. Thats a terrible idea. Anyway, yes, thief is a decap and +1-bot. Thats the price it pays for having shortbow 5. I dont like it either, but there are people who enjoy that playstyle, and for the rest of us, there are other classes to play. Power Rev is kind of like the original thief. Or Spellbreaker, or as I like to call it, "Fat thief".

    While I agree that thief SHOULD be able to play this particular niche play style, is it really fitting that EVERY class is forced into this play style? As I said, the class was the best 1v1 profession for a reason. It has the highest skill ceiling and floor and as such, you should be able to do more than simply decap points and +1 others when you weren't simply limited to that before. As GW2 has grown and evolved, every other professional has been able to do more and add an additional job they were able to carry out in PvP. HoT allowed necros to have more focused damage, HoT allowed engineers to bunk points, HoT allowed rangers to heal their entire party and bunk points. So why should the profession that used to have an entirely different job be forced into another monotonous one simply because of bad balance?

    The trouble is that, as long as shortbow 5 exists, you cant give thief more. If they were deadly duelists and could move accross the map faster than anyone else, that would be problematic. The other classes can do multiple things, but not at once. But for thief? Any thief carrying a shortbow will be able to do the decapping and +1ing. And due to initiative, there is no real incentive to have 2 damage weaponsets.

    I can see this point but it's the same as mesmer using Portal. Portal among mesmers was a staple for years.

    it's not just shortbow, steal plays a huge part.
    shortbow's mobility alone doesnt make thief the king of roaming since 2012, shortbow 40% steal 60%

    No it is just shortbow. The entire reason thief is so insane at decapping and +1ing is that its mobility is unparalleled thanks to shortbow. Steal is valuable, but not even remotely as much as shortbow.

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 21, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    A more complicated class shouldnt be better. That would make picking anything that is "easy" a mistake. Thats a terrible idea. Anyway, yes, thief is a decap and +1-bot. Thats the price it pays for having shortbow 5. I dont like it either, but there are people who enjoy that playstyle, and for the rest of us, there are other classes to play. Power Rev is kind of like the original thief. Or Spellbreaker, or as I like to call it, "Fat thief".

    While I agree that thief SHOULD be able to play this particular niche play style, is it really fitting that EVERY class is forced into this play style? As I said, the class was the best 1v1 profession for a reason. It has the highest skill ceiling and floor and as such, you should be able to do more than simply decap points and +1 others when you weren't simply limited to that before. As GW2 has grown and evolved, every other professional has been able to do more and add an additional job they were able to carry out in PvP. HoT allowed necros to have more focused damage, HoT allowed engineers to bunk points, HoT allowed rangers to heal their entire party and bunk points. So why should the profession that used to have an entirely different job be forced into another monotonous one simply because of bad balance?

    The trouble is that, as long as shortbow 5 exists, you cant give thief more. If they were deadly duelists and could move accross the map faster than anyone else, that would be problematic. The other classes can do multiple things, but not at once. But for thief? Any thief carrying a shortbow will be able to do the decapping and +1ing. And due to initiative, there is no real incentive to have 2 damage weaponsets.

    I can see this point but it's the same as mesmer using Portal. Portal among mesmers was a staple for years.

    it's not just shortbow, steal plays a huge part.
    shortbow's mobility alone doesnt make thief the king of roaming since 2012, shortbow 40% steal 60%

    No it is just shortbow. The entire reason thief is so insane at decapping and +1ing is that its mobility is unparalleled thanks to shortbow. Steal is valuable, but not even remotely as much as shortbow.

    it's not just shortbow tho really..have you tried any +1 without steal, anyone will be able to kit like they kit everybody else and takes way longer to kill
    not to mention there's shadowstep, dash and rifle.
    a quick +1 on low HP target on another point is less about shortbow,
    it's about shadow step 1200, backward withdraw and steal backstab and port back after confirmed kill, any decent thief will pull this off easily.
    ofc having shortbow 5 will add more range to this combo, but it's not what makes this combo so effective, it's steal.
    you wouldn't shut down anyone reliably without steal to finish target within shadowstep timer.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    None of these other classes have been pigeonholed into the same constraints that Thief has. As a top 250 PvP player I have seen nearly all of the thief meta builds, and the glory days were when you could 1v1 or (before this current balance patch) simply do damage.

    wait, no hate or anything, if a thief can 1v1 with steal and shortbow 5 and shadow step
    why would any serious team take a holo or warrior for?
    just talking logic here, enlighten me some

    so take those away for a moment.

    what does a thief bring to the fight?

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) nom nom nom🥔
    Fun Daredevil

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    A more complicated class shouldnt be better. That would make picking anything that is "easy" a mistake. Thats a terrible idea. Anyway, yes, thief is a decap and +1-bot. Thats the price it pays for having shortbow 5. I dont like it either, but there are people who enjoy that playstyle, and for the rest of us, there are other classes to play. Power Rev is kind of like the original thief. Or Spellbreaker, or as I like to call it, "Fat thief".

    While I agree that thief SHOULD be able to play this particular niche play style, is it really fitting that EVERY class is forced into this play style? As I said, the class was the best 1v1 profession for a reason. It has the highest skill ceiling and floor and as such, you should be able to do more than simply decap points and +1 others when you weren't simply limited to that before. As GW2 has grown and evolved, every other professional has been able to do more and add an additional job they were able to carry out in PvP. HoT allowed necros to have more focused damage, HoT allowed engineers to bunk points, HoT allowed rangers to heal their entire party and bunk points. So why should the profession that used to have an entirely different job be forced into another monotonous one simply because of bad balance?

    The trouble is that, as long as shortbow 5 exists, you cant give thief more. If they were deadly duelists and could move accross the map faster than anyone else, that would be problematic. The other classes can do multiple things, but not at once. But for thief? Any thief carrying a shortbow will be able to do the decapping and +1ing. And due to initiative, there is no real incentive to have 2 damage weaponsets.

    I can see this point but it's the same as mesmer using Portal. Portal among mesmers was a staple for years.

    it's not just shortbow, steal plays a huge part.
    shortbow's mobility alone doesnt make thief the king of roaming since 2012, shortbow 40% steal 60%

    No it is just shortbow. The entire reason thief is so insane at decapping and +1ing is that its mobility is unparalleled thanks to shortbow. Steal is valuable, but not even remotely as much as shortbow.

    it's not just shortbow tho really..have you tried any +1 without steal, anyone will be able to kit like they kit everybody else and takes way longer to kill
    not to mention there's shadowstep, dash and rifle.
    a quick +1 on low HP target on another point is less about shortbow,
    it's about shadow step 1200, backward withdraw and steal backstab and port back after confirmed kill, any decent thief will pull this off easily.
    ofc having shortbow 5 adds more range to this combo.

    No, it is really just shortbow. You can +1 without steal easily. Its less effective, but not by much. You still have shadowshot or Infiltrators Strike for approaching. Or Infiltrators Signet if youd be that desperate. Shadowstep is rarely used offensively. Its much too valuable of a cooldown. Dash is good, but thief was amazing before dash was implemented, and recently thief didnt use dash alltogether. Rifle is and has always been a bad weaponset.

    It is just about shortbow. Shadowstep is still not used offensively. Withdraw and steal backstab are pretty recent things, D/P used to rely more on headshot and shadowshot.

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    A more complicated class shouldnt be better. That would make picking anything that is "easy" a mistake. Thats a terrible idea. Anyway, yes, thief is a decap and +1-bot. Thats the price it pays for having shortbow 5. I dont like it either, but there are people who enjoy that playstyle, and for the rest of us, there are other classes to play. Power Rev is kind of like the original thief. Or Spellbreaker, or as I like to call it, "Fat thief".

    While I agree that thief SHOULD be able to play this particular niche play style, is it really fitting that EVERY class is forced into this play style? As I said, the class was the best 1v1 profession for a reason. It has the highest skill ceiling and floor and as such, you should be able to do more than simply decap points and +1 others when you weren't simply limited to that before. As GW2 has grown and evolved, every other professional has been able to do more and add an additional job they were able to carry out in PvP. HoT allowed necros to have more focused damage, HoT allowed engineers to bunk points, HoT allowed rangers to heal their entire party and bunk points. So why should the profession that used to have an entirely different job be forced into another monotonous one simply because of bad balance?

    The trouble is that, as long as shortbow 5 exists, you cant give thief more. If they were deadly duelists and could move accross the map faster than anyone else, that would be problematic. The other classes can do multiple things, but not at once. But for thief? Any thief carrying a shortbow will be able to do the decapping and +1ing. And due to initiative, there is no real incentive to have 2 damage weaponsets.

    I can see this point but it's the same as mesmer using Portal. Portal among mesmers was a staple for years.

    it's not just shortbow, steal plays a huge part.
    shortbow's mobility alone doesnt make thief the king of roaming since 2012, shortbow 40% steal 60%

    No it is just shortbow. The entire reason thief is so insane at decapping and +1ing is that its mobility is unparalleled thanks to shortbow. Steal is valuable, but not even remotely as much as shortbow.

    it's not just shortbow tho really..have you tried any +1 without steal, anyone will be able to kit like they kit everybody else and takes way longer to kill
    not to mention there's shadowstep, dash and rifle.
    a quick +1 on low HP target on another point is less about shortbow,
    it's about shadow step 1200, backward withdraw and steal backstab and port back after confirmed kill, any decent thief will pull this off easily.
    ofc having shortbow 5 adds more range to this combo.

    No, it is really just shortbow. You can +1 without steal easily. Its less effective, but not by much. You still have shadowshot or Infiltrators Strike for approaching. Or Infiltrators Signet if youd be that desperate. Shadowstep is rarely used offensively. Its much too valuable of a cooldown. Dash is good, but thief was amazing before dash was implemented, and recently thief didnt use dash alltogether. Rifle is and has always been a bad weaponset.

    It is just about shortbow. Shadowstep is still not used offensively. Withdraw and steal backstab are pretty recent things, D/P used to rely more on headshot and shadowshot.

    Here's the thing, greatsword warrior will be competing roaming spot if it had steal, that's how good it is for roamer.
    why you think rev can be +1 but it doesnt have shortbow 5 ish skill, but it has steal like skills.
    why power medi guard can be played +1, because steal like skill.

    it's steal that permits +1, not shortbow, other classes also have decent mobility if wanted, warrior can go bullcharge, sundering leap and sword/gs for insane mobility, but it will never be able to play +1, but if you give him steal, he will.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    A more complicated class shouldnt be better. That would make picking anything that is "easy" a mistake. Thats a terrible idea. Anyway, yes, thief is a decap and +1-bot. Thats the price it pays for having shortbow 5. I dont like it either, but there are people who enjoy that playstyle, and for the rest of us, there are other classes to play. Power Rev is kind of like the original thief. Or Spellbreaker, or as I like to call it, "Fat thief".

    While I agree that thief SHOULD be able to play this particular niche play style, is it really fitting that EVERY class is forced into this play style? As I said, the class was the best 1v1 profession for a reason. It has the highest skill ceiling and floor and as such, you should be able to do more than simply decap points and +1 others when you weren't simply limited to that before. As GW2 has grown and evolved, every other professional has been able to do more and add an additional job they were able to carry out in PvP. HoT allowed necros to have more focused damage, HoT allowed engineers to bunk points, HoT allowed rangers to heal their entire party and bunk points. So why should the profession that used to have an entirely different job be forced into another monotonous one simply because of bad balance?

    The trouble is that, as long as shortbow 5 exists, you cant give thief more. If they were deadly duelists and could move accross the map faster than anyone else, that would be problematic. The other classes can do multiple things, but not at once. But for thief? Any thief carrying a shortbow will be able to do the decapping and +1ing. And due to initiative, there is no real incentive to have 2 damage weaponsets.

    I can see this point but it's the same as mesmer using Portal. Portal among mesmers was a staple for years.

    it's not just shortbow, steal plays a huge part.
    shortbow's mobility alone doesnt make thief the king of roaming since 2012, shortbow 40% steal 60%

    No it is just shortbow. The entire reason thief is so insane at decapping and +1ing is that its mobility is unparalleled thanks to shortbow. Steal is valuable, but not even remotely as much as shortbow.

    it's not just shortbow tho really..have you tried any +1 without steal, anyone will be able to kit like they kit everybody else and takes way longer to kill
    not to mention there's shadowstep, dash and rifle.
    a quick +1 on low HP target on another point is less about shortbow,
    it's about shadow step 1200, backward withdraw and steal backstab and port back after confirmed kill, any decent thief will pull this off easily.
    ofc having shortbow 5 adds more range to this combo.

    No, it is really just shortbow. You can +1 without steal easily. Its less effective, but not by much. You still have shadowshot or Infiltrators Strike for approaching. Or Infiltrators Signet if youd be that desperate. Shadowstep is rarely used offensively. Its much too valuable of a cooldown. Dash is good, but thief was amazing before dash was implemented, and recently thief didnt use dash alltogether. Rifle is and has always been a bad weaponset.

    It is just about shortbow. Shadowstep is still not used offensively. Withdraw and steal backstab are pretty recent things, D/P used to rely more on headshot and shadowshot.

    Here's the thing, greatsword warrior will be competing roaming spot if it had steal, that's how good it is for roamer.
    why you think rev can be +1 but it doesnt have shortbow 5 ish skill, but it has steal like skills.
    why power medi guard can be played +1, because steal like skill.

    It wouldnt be. Its mobility in sPvP is very insignificant. It handles inclines poorly. Rev also cant be played well as a +1 role. Theyre focused on teamfights. Now you know who is decent at +1ing, or was? Mesmer. Because they have decent mobility. Core burst Engineer is also decent at +1ing, and he doesnt even have any kind of shadowstep. What he does have however is permaswiftness. Or hell, Ele has multiple blinks, but is not great at +1ing due to a horrendous lack of mobility.

    it's steal that permits +1, not shortbow, other classes also have decent mobility if wanted, warrior can go bullcharge, sundering leap and sword/gs for insane mobility, but it will never be able to play +1, but if you give him steal, he will.

    Incorrect. Its only shortbow that permits +1s. Steal is basically irrelevant. Thats why even with swipe (which is barely better than rush for approaching) thief is great at +1ing. And why even if you run Deadeye (mind you, Deadeye isnt good, but for different reasons) who gives up steal alltogether, thief would still be good at +1ing. Warriors problem is that his mobility is in dashes that move towards a location. In sPvP, that isnt great because of a lot of inclines, curved paths and other obstacles. Give Warrior a steal, and Warrior would 100% still be completely incapable of being a decent +1 class, precisely because its mobility that matters.

  • @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Watch noody's newest stream lol. He says "man what a class" like 3 or 4 times in first 2 pvp matches cuz there were 2 decent side noders that sat on each side node that he couldn't challenge and 3 mid destroying his team so he kept feeling useless cuz his team would feed mid and hes get destroyed if he tried to help. Both games went like this, granted his teams wernt doing great but was funny seeing him running from every 1v1 basically and even +1 wasn't super effective. All he could do was nothing lol. Then u got sind who stated thief's burst was to low even to be effective in +1'ing whether its sustains to high, thief's burst to low or a bit of both. Then u got vallun saying thief can get easy +1 kills if he fights the exact right situations and the community of thief haters start spouting thief's fine cuz vallun said thief gets easy kills lol.
    Good stuff. class is gbage right now, no class should just be a runner. This thief cant have burst is bs, high mobile low hp/armor classes should be ALL about the high burst and run playstyle. Guards are limited to gbage dos because the have a ton of blocks, invulnerability etc, all classes can and do usually excel at multiple things in gw2, that's sorta the games thing and thief shouldn't be single out from that just because it's a annoying design for some.

    re-roll to rev its the new thief

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 21, 2020

    @darren.1064 said:
    I would like to start this by saying I've been playing GW2 since launch. I used to play PvP back in the hotjoin days before AT's, and Ranked PvP were a thing. I'm a rank 560 in PvP and have played a total of 15,438 games across all of my characters and 10,079 of those were played on my thief. I've never felt like PvP was as broken before as it is now, and I have also never felt like I should make a post on the Guild Wars 2 Forums until now.

    During my time on Guild Wars, I've taken a few breaks but I can firmly say that I remember the days when thief was the #1 1v1 class. Seeing as how thief has always had the highest learning curve, it only makes sense that the most complicated class to play would be the best at fighting 1v1s. That point still survives to this day as thief remains the hardest profession to play (aside from gimmick builds that occasionally pop up through profession exploits that also occur on other professions.) Over time the power creep has set in well for other classes while leading to the decline in play for other classes. Over just the past few months, ranger is the prime example as there was never a prime balance patch where they went from the red headed stepchild to the families golden child; over time they had a bunch of smaller positive changes that really helped progress the professions damage, sustain, and popularity. The opposite can be said about thief, the class that 5 years ago was the best class to 1v1 on. A very long series of balance patches have forced thieves into a pvp class that has been pigeonholed into the sole purpose of decapping and +1-ing fights. While there's nothing wrong with this particular role, it is shameful that no other class has been pushed this far into a single monotonous role. Going through each of the nine classes:

      1. Elementalist - have the speed to +1, have the range to also team fight with damage or godly support on tempest and can also 1v1 with ease
      1. Necromancer - Don't even get me started. Near unkillable at times and can fight entire 1v3s for large amounts of time. Can +1
      1. Mesmer - Because the massive nerf finally hit mesmer and mirages, the elite and core spec are also teetering on the edge of being viable
      1. Ranger - I don't think I even need to talk about this class
      1. Engineer - Still a solid profession right now that is being saved by holosmith's damage and sustainability; can 1v1, hold points or _1
      1. Thief - Can simply +1 or decap points; near liability in team fights due to virtual 0 toughness or vitality and reduced damage that is completely laughable
      1. Guardian - Untouchable support class that also has access to damage; they're viable in every part of ranked PvP
      1. Warrior - Have builds that can hold points, win 1v1s with ease, and while a tad bit slower they are great 1v1ers with their plethora of CC skills
      1. Revenant - Current tanks that can 1v1, team fight, and one of the best +1 professions

    None of these other classes have been pigeonholed into the same constraints that Thief has. As a top 250 PvP player I have seen nearly all of the thief meta builds, and the glory days were when you could 1v1 or (before this current balance patch) simply do damage. The current big problem with thief is obviously
    A: the damage is absolutely terrible and you cannot win any 1v1s. Before this balance patch thieves struggled with winning 1v1s because the profession has been on a steady decline in every category possible aside from mobility while every other profession has received plentiful buffs in damage and sustainability.
    B: A majority of initiative a thief uses is spent on defensive purposes as opposed to offensive purposes. Defensive purposes would include going into stealth. Black Powder Shot alone costs 6 initiative to use and that doesn't include the Heartseeker, Bound, or Cluster Bomb that the thief is also forced to use to finish going into stealth. With the current playing style for everybody unfortunately being low damage and tanky builds, initiative is a big problem for thieves as we're forced into extended fights where the thief inevitably doesn't do enough upfront damage to kill the person and so the fight drags on until the thief inevitably runs out of initiative and dies of attrition. Hence where thieves are forced into the +1 nature that no other class has been forced into because they're more properly balanced.

    The "High Risk, High Reward" motto that was originally used for thieves has become a sham as even using a berserker amulet, auto-attacks do about 300-500 damage each. Backstab does less than 5000 damage and that's for D/P: one of the thieve's most offensively powerful weapon sets. However thieves are one of the easiest classes to kill due to having only 1 skill that supplies stability for a single second coupled with a low health pool and no extra toughness. Core necro is just one example of a class that can keep thief fear-locked for an eternity as the thief's health quickly dwindles away from other conditions. Power rangers, mainly power soulbeasts are melting thieves in a split second with nothing to save them. Guardians and elementalists can simply burn them to death. Engineers win the battle of attrition. Mesmer and some warrior builds are the only two professions that thief has a feasible chance against. Not to mention that that is only sometimes with warrior.

    I'll try to keep this short, but in short: The thief that was born into Guild Wars 2 has died. The best 1v1 class with the highest skill floor and ceiling was wasted.

    Complicated class......

    "High risk"......

    Don't want to link more video proof......

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @darren.1064 said:
    I would like to start this by saying I've been playing GW2 since launch. I used to play PvP back in the hotjoin days before AT's, and Ranked PvP were a thing. I'm a rank 560 in PvP and have played a total of 15,438 games across all of my characters and 10,079 of those were played on my thief. I've never felt like PvP was as broken before as it is now, and I have also never felt like I should make a post on the Guild Wars 2 Forums until now.

    During my time on Guild Wars, I've taken a few breaks but I can firmly say that I remember the days when thief was the #1 1v1 class. Seeing as how thief has always had the highest learning curve, it only makes sense that the most complicated class to play would be the best at fighting 1v1s. That point still survives to this day as thief remains the hardest profession to play (aside from gimmick builds that occasionally pop up through profession exploits that also occur on other professions.) Over time the power creep has set in well for other classes while leading to the decline in play for other classes. Over just the past few months, ranger is the prime example as there was never a prime balance patch where they went from the red headed stepchild to the families golden child; over time they had a bunch of smaller positive changes that really helped progress the professions damage, sustain, and popularity. The opposite can be said about thief, the class that 5 years ago was the best class to 1v1 on. A very long series of balance patches have forced thieves into a pvp class that has been pigeonholed into the sole purpose of decapping and +1-ing fights. While there's nothing wrong with this particular role, it is shameful that no other class has been pushed this far into a single monotonous role. Going through each of the nine classes:

      1. Elementalist - have the speed to +1, have the range to also team fight with damage or godly support on tempest and can also 1v1 with ease
      1. Necromancer - Don't even get me started. Near unkillable at times and can fight entire 1v3s for large amounts of time. Can +1
      1. Mesmer - Because the massive nerf finally hit mesmer and mirages, the elite and core spec are also teetering on the edge of being viable
      1. Ranger - I don't think I even need to talk about this class
      1. Engineer - Still a solid profession right now that is being saved by holosmith's damage and sustainability; can 1v1, hold points or _1
      1. Thief - Can simply +1 or decap points; near liability in team fights due to virtual 0 toughness or vitality and reduced damage that is completely laughable
      1. Guardian - Untouchable support class that also has access to damage; they're viable in every part of ranked PvP
      1. Warrior - Have builds that can hold points, win 1v1s with ease, and while a tad bit slower they are great 1v1ers with their plethora of CC skills
      1. Revenant - Current tanks that can 1v1, team fight, and one of the best +1 professions

    None of these other classes have been pigeonholed into the same constraints that Thief has. As a top 250 PvP player I have seen nearly all of the thief meta builds, and the glory days were when you could 1v1 or (before this current balance patch) simply do damage. The current big problem with thief is obviously
    A: the damage is absolutely terrible and you cannot win any 1v1s. Before this balance patch thieves struggled with winning 1v1s because the profession has been on a steady decline in every category possible aside from mobility while every other profession has received plentiful buffs in damage and sustainability.
    B: A majority of initiative a thief uses is spent on defensive purposes as opposed to offensive purposes. Defensive purposes would include going into stealth. Black Powder Shot alone costs 6 initiative to use and that doesn't include the Heartseeker, Bound, or Cluster Bomb that the thief is also forced to use to finish going into stealth. With the current playing style for everybody unfortunately being low damage and tanky builds, initiative is a big problem for thieves as we're forced into extended fights where the thief inevitably doesn't do enough upfront damage to kill the person and so the fight drags on until the thief inevitably runs out of initiative and dies of attrition. Hence where thieves are forced into the +1 nature that no other class has been forced into because they're more properly balanced.

    The "High Risk, High Reward" motto that was originally used for thieves has become a sham as even using a berserker amulet, auto-attacks do about 300-500 damage each. Backstab does less than 5000 damage and that's for D/P: one of the thieve's most offensively powerful weapon sets. However thieves are one of the easiest classes to kill due to having only 1 skill that supplies stability for a single second coupled with a low health pool and no extra toughness. Core necro is just one example of a class that can keep thief fear-locked for an eternity as the thief's health quickly dwindles away from other conditions. Power rangers, mainly power soulbeasts are melting thieves in a split second with nothing to save them. Guardians and elementalists can simply burn them to death. Engineers win the battle of attrition. Mesmer and some warrior builds are the only two professions that thief has a feasible chance against. Not to mention that that is only sometimes with warrior.

    I'll try to keep this short, but in short: The thief that was born into Guild Wars 2 has died. The best 1v1 class with the highest skill floor and ceiling was wasted.

    You had the "pleasure" to oppress the playerbase for years before finally being addressed

    You made "life" unbearable for hundreds of players in WvW for years ....

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 21, 2020

    "Most complicate and hard to learn" class....give me a break!
    At times around 2014 they were 2-3 thieves per team and in WvW you had thief ganking squads behind every corner....

    Frustrating to fight...oppressive, I am very glad all of this is gone

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    For your point B:
    Disable Stealth in PvP -> problem solved.

    And mentioning being a Top 250 doesn't mean anything, if you can't see what the vast majority - the obviously bigger and thus more important group for any game mode - sees.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    I don't get all the complaints about shortbow. Yes it's annoying seeing a thief constantly decapping, but that really boils down to luck in matchmaking and the other team. It doesn't matter how fast you are at decapping if your team is throwing their corpses at mid the whole match outnumbering the other team.

    Oh Im not complaining. Im just saying, shortbow 5 is why thief is in the state it is. For better, or for worse, its the class identity at this point.

    Sure, there are plenty of games where you can decap and rotate your way to victory, but there are just as many or more where your high mobility isn't going to matter and you're never going to be able to +1 because you teammates die before you can get to them.

    This much is true, thief is more reliant on his teammate than any other class.

    Half the time I've tried coming as a decap bot on thief I've just wound up giving up and trolling mid because I was either forced to duel for a sidenode or running back and forth across the map capping a point while the enemy recapped the point I just capped. I mean, I'm not good at thief anyway, but a lot of people argue that you can carry matches by simply avoiding fights and capping points, but I've yet to see a match where that was possible. You either win by a landslide and your help is barely noticed or you're just stalling the match.

    This is not true, exactly. Maybe in this meta, but generally a thief is key in breaking a stalemate.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Exedore.6320 said:
    I'm fine with thief gaining sustained damage if it drops some of the mobility (in-fight and out), teleports, evades, and resets via stealth.

    Here's the view from the other side. Thief - particularly daredevil - warps around and evades like crazy. With everyone's damage reduced, especially on CC's, it's nearly impossible in a 1v1 to kill a thief who prioritizes staying alive. So if thief can't lose a 1v1, shouldn't it also follow that it not be allowed to win a 1v1 either?

    Here is my problem: A Warrior or a Ranger also cant be killed if they prioritise staying alive. On flat ground, a Warriors mobility is unmatched, even by thief. They cant lose a 1v1. Why can they win 1v1s?

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArcanistSeven.8720 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Watch noody's newest stream lol. He says "man what a class" like 3 or 4 times in first 2 pvp matches cuz there were 2 decent side noders that sat on each side node that he couldn't challenge and 3 mid destroying his team so he kept feeling useless cuz his team would feed mid and hes get destroyed if he tried to help. Both games went like this, granted his teams wernt doing great but was funny seeing him running from every 1v1 basically and even +1 wasn't super effective. All he could do was nothing lol. Then u got sind who stated thief's burst was to low even to be effective in +1'ing whether its sustains to high, thief's burst to low or a bit of both. Then u got vallun saying thief can get easy +1 kills if he fights the exact right situations and the community of thief haters start spouting thief's fine cuz vallun said thief gets easy kills lol.
    Good stuff. class is gbage right now, no class should just be a runner. This thief cant have burst is bs, high mobile low hp/armor classes should be ALL about the high burst and run playstyle. Guards are limited to gbage dos because the have a ton of blocks, invulnerability etc, all classes can and do usually excel at multiple things in gw2, that's sorta the games thing and thief shouldn't be single out from that just because it's a annoying design for some.

    re-roll to rev its the new thief

    Already did, started doing ranked solo q last night and went 5 wins 2 losses. Happy with rev so far as it seems effective but harder to play.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    That overall..."arrogance" of thief players for having that mentality where : " I only die if I want to die and I kill you when I want"...makes my blood boil , do you think that people buy the game to be your personal toy in a virtual playground ?

    Nobody in his right mind would play a game only to be in fear of a seemingly invincible enemy that can pop out of nowhere doing life threatening damage before slipping back into invisible mode

    Let's start from removing stealth from GW2, that should bring back the idea of "high risk" for some burst builds in this game

    Man people really fixate on stealth, huh? Except, stealth has nothing (and I mean literally nothing) to do with why thieves risk is low. No, thats not accurate. It has less than nothing to do with it. Using stealth in-combat is one of the few ways a thief can get himself killed. Their way of being safe is to run away with shortbow 5.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    its not just shortbow 5, there is PLENTY mobility other then sb5.
    roll for ini, withdraw,steal,dash, perma swiftness, shadowstep, portal, dagger 2, vault, sword 2.
    Heck, dash alone from daredevil gives as much if not more mobility then most other classes can do when moving between points for example.

    It is just shortbow 5. Keep in mind, until recently the best thief builds didnt even run Daredevil. Or acrobatics. All they had was Shortbow 5. And surprise surprise, they were still the best +1 and decap class. On the other hand, we have never seen a non-shortbow thief build be any good at either. Of the ones you mention, Roll for Initiative and Shadowstep are not used for movement between points (much too valuable), Dash and perma-swiftness is synonymous, Steal isnt important (Thief remains the best at it with even Swipe, or Mark), Portal is largely not used, Vault is really bad for moving between points, Dagger 2 is really bad for moving between points and sword 2 is not usable without having a target.

    Dash would make thief on par with a lot of classes, and below others. Without shortbow 5, a dash thief would be a bad decapper and +1 class, and not viable. But a thief with shortbow and without Dash remains amazing. It legitimately is just shortbow 5. Its the ability the class is centered around. The most important one, and the key to its viability. You could remove the other mobility, it wouldnt matter so long as shortbow 5 exists. But remove just shortbow 5, and the class crumbles apart.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    its not just shortbow 5, there is PLENTY mobility other then sb5.
    roll for ini, withdraw,steal,dash, perma swiftness, shadowstep, portal, dagger 2, vault, sword 2.
    Heck, dash alone from daredevil gives as much if not more mobility then most other classes can do when moving between points for example.

    It is just shortbow 5. Keep in mind, until recently the best thief builds didnt even run Daredevil. Or acrobatics. All they had was Shortbow 5. And surprise surprise, they were still the best +1 and decap class. On the other hand, we have never seen a non-shortbow thief build be any good at either. Of the ones you mention, Roll for Initiative and Shadowstep are not used for movement between points (much too valuable), Dash and perma-swiftness is synonymous, Steal isnt important (Thief remains the best at it with even Swipe, or Mark), Portal is largely not used, Vault is really bad for moving between points, Dagger 2 is really bad for moving between points and sword 2 is not usable without having a target.

    Dash would make thief on par with a lot of classes, and below others. Without shortbow 5, a dash thief would be a bad decapper and +1 class, and not viable. But a thief with shortbow and without Dash remains amazing. It legitimately is just shortbow 5. Its the ability the class is centered around. The most important one, and the key to its viability. You could remove the other mobility, it wouldnt matter so long as shortbow 5 exists. But remove just shortbow 5, and the class crumbles apart.

    you can play sb 5 spam and be the fast or you can go DD without sb and still be the fastest

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    its not just shortbow 5, there is PLENTY mobility other then sb5.
    roll for ini, withdraw,steal,dash, perma swiftness, shadowstep, portal, dagger 2, vault, sword 2.
    Heck, dash alone from daredevil gives as much if not more mobility then most other classes can do when moving between points for example.

    It is just shortbow 5. Keep in mind, until recently the best thief builds didnt even run Daredevil. Or acrobatics. All they had was Shortbow 5. And surprise surprise, they were still the best +1 and decap class. On the other hand, we have never seen a non-shortbow thief build be any good at either. Of the ones you mention, Roll for Initiative and Shadowstep are not used for movement between points (much too valuable), Dash and perma-swiftness is synonymous, Steal isnt important (Thief remains the best at it with even Swipe, or Mark), Portal is largely not used, Vault is really bad for moving between points, Dagger 2 is really bad for moving between points and sword 2 is not usable without having a target.

    Dash would make thief on par with a lot of classes, and below others. Without shortbow 5, a dash thief would be a bad decapper and +1 class, and not viable. But a thief with shortbow and without Dash remains amazing. It legitimately is just shortbow 5. Its the ability the class is centered around. The most important one, and the key to its viability. You could remove the other mobility, it wouldnt matter so long as shortbow 5 exists. But remove just shortbow 5, and the class crumbles apart.

    you can play sb 5 spam and be the fast or you can go DD without sb and still be the fastest

    No, you can go DD without SB, and notice that you, in fact, arent the fastest. Permaswiftness aint all its cracked out to be, even Engineer has it. And a better, lower cooldown version of Heartseeker.

  • darren.1064darren.1064 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @darren.1064 said:
    I would like to start this by saying I've been playing GW2 since launch. I used to play PvP back in the hotjoin days before AT's, and Ranked PvP were a thing. I'm a rank 560 in PvP and have played a total of 15,438 games across all of my characters and 10,079 of those were played on my thief. I've never felt like PvP was as broken before as it is now, and I have also never felt like I should make a post on the Guild Wars 2 Forums until now.

    During my time on Guild Wars, I've taken a few breaks but I can firmly say that I remember the days when thief was the #1 1v1 class. Seeing as how thief has always had the highest learning curve, it only makes sense that the most complicated class to play would be the best at fighting 1v1s. That point still survives to this day as thief remains the hardest profession to play (aside from gimmick builds that occasionally pop up through profession exploits that also occur on other professions.) Over time the power creep has set in well for other classes while leading to the decline in play for other classes. Over just the past few months, ranger is the prime example as there was never a prime balance patch where they went from the red headed stepchild to the families golden child; over time they had a bunch of smaller positive changes that really helped progress the professions damage, sustain, and popularity. The opposite can be said about thief, the class that 5 years ago was the best class to 1v1 on. A very long series of balance patches have forced thieves into a pvp class that has been pigeonholed into the sole purpose of decapping and +1-ing fights. While there's nothing wrong with this particular role, it is shameful that no other class has been pushed this far into a single monotonous role. Going through each of the nine classes:

      1. Elementalist - have the speed to +1, have the range to also team fight with damage or godly support on tempest and can also 1v1 with ease
      1. Necromancer - Don't even get me started. Near unkillable at times and can fight entire 1v3s for large amounts of time. Can +1
      1. Mesmer - Because the massive nerf finally hit mesmer and mirages, the elite and core spec are also teetering on the edge of being viable
      1. Ranger - I don't think I even need to talk about this class
      1. Engineer - Still a solid profession right now that is being saved by holosmith's damage and sustainability; can 1v1, hold points or _1
      1. Thief - Can simply +1 or decap points; near liability in team fights due to virtual 0 toughness or vitality and reduced damage that is completely laughable
      1. Guardian - Untouchable support class that also has access to damage; they're viable in every part of ranked PvP
      1. Warrior - Have builds that can hold points, win 1v1s with ease, and while a tad bit slower they are great 1v1ers with their plethora of CC skills
      1. Revenant - Current tanks that can 1v1, team fight, and one of the best +1 professions

    None of these other classes have been pigeonholed into the same constraints that Thief has. As a top 250 PvP player I have seen nearly all of the thief meta builds, and the glory days were when you could 1v1 or (before this current balance patch) simply do damage. The current big problem with thief is obviously
    A: the damage is absolutely terrible and you cannot win any 1v1s. Before this balance patch thieves struggled with winning 1v1s because the profession has been on a steady decline in every category possible aside from mobility while every other profession has received plentiful buffs in damage and sustainability.
    B: A majority of initiative a thief uses is spent on defensive purposes as opposed to offensive purposes. Defensive purposes would include going into stealth. Black Powder Shot alone costs 6 initiative to use and that doesn't include the Heartseeker, Bound, or Cluster Bomb that the thief is also forced to use to finish going into stealth. With the current playing style for everybody unfortunately being low damage and tanky builds, initiative is a big problem for thieves as we're forced into extended fights where the thief inevitably doesn't do enough upfront damage to kill the person and so the fight drags on until the thief inevitably runs out of initiative and dies of attrition. Hence where thieves are forced into the +1 nature that no other class has been forced into because they're more properly balanced.

    The "High Risk, High Reward" motto that was originally used for thieves has become a sham as even using a berserker amulet, auto-attacks do about 300-500 damage each. Backstab does less than 5000 damage and that's for D/P: one of the thieve's most offensively powerful weapon sets. However thieves are one of the easiest classes to kill due to having only 1 skill that supplies stability for a single second coupled with a low health pool and no extra toughness. Core necro is just one example of a class that can keep thief fear-locked for an eternity as the thief's health quickly dwindles away from other conditions. Power rangers, mainly power soulbeasts are melting thieves in a split second with nothing to save them. Guardians and elementalists can simply burn them to death. Engineers win the battle of attrition. Mesmer and some warrior builds are the only two professions that thief has a feasible chance against. Not to mention that that is only sometimes with warrior.

    I'll try to keep this short, but in short: The thief that was born into Guild Wars 2 has died. The best 1v1 class with the highest skill floor and ceiling was wasted.

    You had the "pleasure" to oppress the playerbase for years before finally being addressed

    You made "life" unbearable for hundreds of players in WvW for years ....

    so your one true argument is that it's okay for thief to be bad now because they used to be playable before?

  • darren.1064darren.1064 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @darren.1064 said:
    I would like to start this by saying I've been playing GW2 since launch. I used to play PvP back in the hotjoin days before AT's, and Ranked PvP were a thing. I'm a rank 560 in PvP and have played a total of 15,438 games across all of my characters and 10,079 of those were played on my thief. I've never felt like PvP was as broken before as it is now, and I have also never felt like I should make a post on the Guild Wars 2 Forums until now.

    During my time on Guild Wars, I've taken a few breaks but I can firmly say that I remember the days when thief was the #1 1v1 class. Seeing as how thief has always had the highest learning curve, it only makes sense that the most complicated class to play would be the best at fighting 1v1s. That point still survives to this day as thief remains the hardest profession to play (aside from gimmick builds that occasionally pop up through profession exploits that also occur on other professions.) Over time the power creep has set in well for other classes while leading to the decline in play for other classes. Over just the past few months, ranger is the prime example as there was never a prime balance patch where they went from the red headed stepchild to the families golden child; over time they had a bunch of smaller positive changes that really helped progress the professions damage, sustain, and popularity. The opposite can be said about thief, the class that 5 years ago was the best class to 1v1 on. A very long series of balance patches have forced thieves into a pvp class that has been pigeonholed into the sole purpose of decapping and +1-ing fights. While there's nothing wrong with this particular role, it is shameful that no other class has been pushed this far into a single monotonous role. Going through each of the nine classes:

      1. Elementalist - have the speed to +1, have the range to also team fight with damage or godly support on tempest and can also 1v1 with ease
      1. Necromancer - Don't even get me started. Near unkillable at times and can fight entire 1v3s for large amounts of time. Can +1
      1. Mesmer - Because the massive nerf finally hit mesmer and mirages, the elite and core spec are also teetering on the edge of being viable
      1. Ranger - I don't think I even need to talk about this class
      1. Engineer - Still a solid profession right now that is being saved by holosmith's damage and sustainability; can 1v1, hold points or _1
      1. Thief - Can simply +1 or decap points; near liability in team fights due to virtual 0 toughness or vitality and reduced damage that is completely laughable
      1. Guardian - Untouchable support class that also has access to damage; they're viable in every part of ranked PvP
      1. Warrior - Have builds that can hold points, win 1v1s with ease, and while a tad bit slower they are great 1v1ers with their plethora of CC skills
      1. Revenant - Current tanks that can 1v1, team fight, and one of the best +1 professions

    None of these other classes have been pigeonholed into the same constraints that Thief has. As a top 250 PvP player I have seen nearly all of the thief meta builds, and the glory days were when you could 1v1 or (before this current balance patch) simply do damage. The current big problem with thief is obviously
    A: the damage is absolutely terrible and you cannot win any 1v1s. Before this balance patch thieves struggled with winning 1v1s because the profession has been on a steady decline in every category possible aside from mobility while every other profession has received plentiful buffs in damage and sustainability.
    B: A majority of initiative a thief uses is spent on defensive purposes as opposed to offensive purposes. Defensive purposes would include going into stealth. Black Powder Shot alone costs 6 initiative to use and that doesn't include the Heartseeker, Bound, or Cluster Bomb that the thief is also forced to use to finish going into stealth. With the current playing style for everybody unfortunately being low damage and tanky builds, initiative is a big problem for thieves as we're forced into extended fights where the thief inevitably doesn't do enough upfront damage to kill the person and so the fight drags on until the thief inevitably runs out of initiative and dies of attrition. Hence where thieves are forced into the +1 nature that no other class has been forced into because they're more properly balanced.

    The "High Risk, High Reward" motto that was originally used for thieves has become a sham as even using a berserker amulet, auto-attacks do about 300-500 damage each. Backstab does less than 5000 damage and that's for D/P: one of the thieve's most offensively powerful weapon sets. However thieves are one of the easiest classes to kill due to having only 1 skill that supplies stability for a single second coupled with a low health pool and no extra toughness. Core necro is just one example of a class that can keep thief fear-locked for an eternity as the thief's health quickly dwindles away from other conditions. Power rangers, mainly power soulbeasts are melting thieves in a split second with nothing to save them. Guardians and elementalists can simply burn them to death. Engineers win the battle of attrition. Mesmer and some warrior builds are the only two professions that thief has a feasible chance against. Not to mention that that is only sometimes with warrior.

    I'll try to keep this short, but in short: The thief that was born into Guild Wars 2 has died. The best 1v1 class with the highest skill floor and ceiling was wasted.

    You had the "pleasure" to oppress the playerbase for years before finally being addressed

    You made "life" unbearable for hundreds of players in WvW for years ....

    so your one true argument is that it's okay for thief to be bad now because they used to be playable before?

    Your argument is that if it's not OP...must be unplayable

    No, if you read my post without bias then you would understand my argument

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Maybe next elite speck will be 1v1 duelist with one weapon slot, so it would have to be less mobile but have better damage. Maybe a GS would fit.
    But till then being mobile and doing kitten ton of damage doesn't fit.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    Maybe next elite speck will be 1v1 duelist with one weapon slot, so it would have to be less mobile but have better damage. Maybe a GS would fit.
    But till then being mobile and doing kitten ton of damage doesn't fit.

    Dont think it should be a GS. Maybe offhand sword, maybe Mace, but Greatsword is just not thematically appropriate for theif in any version.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    Maybe next elite speck will be 1v1 duelist with one weapon slot, so it would have to be less mobile but have better damage. Maybe a GS would fit.
    But till then being mobile and doing kitten ton of damage doesn't fit.

    Why doesn't it, cuz u dont think it fits? Who made the rule high mobility= low burst?
    U know high sustained damage and high burst damage are both a thing and in most mmos high mobility archetypes like rogues get high burst as well so they can get in quick and do the damage the need to do before gtfo cuz their usually also squishy, hense high mobility and evades. Higher sustain classes usually have lower bursts but higher sustained damage because the can stay in the fight long enough to deal it.
    I love the community lmao let's make up our own rules to coincide with our bias against thief and call it the rule even though goes against the actual tropes made by all past mmo's.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    Maybe next elite speck will be 1v1 duelist with one weapon slot, so it would have to be less mobile but have better damage. Maybe a GS would fit.
    But till then being mobile and doing kitten ton of damage doesn't fit.

    Dont think it should be a GS. Maybe offhand sword, maybe Mace, but Greatsword is just not thematically appropriate for theif in any version.

    I agree, dual sword thief duelist would fit tho, when I think gs duelist I think of war/rev and only one has gs, really hoping the other does come cantha lol. Dual sword/gs shiro all day every day.