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The Death of Thief

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  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2020

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Name one class in any mmo that is baseline glassy archetype that doesn't do or isn't design with high burst along side its mobility?

    Archer in bdo?

    Ninja far closer to the thiefs archetype design, hows it designed? Oh top single target burst and bad support and team fighting, invisibility etc, sound familiar except top single target burst of course :)

    U said glassy but yeah ninja is probably closer to thief design. Best 1v1 class in bdo from what I’ve heard

    It is, I've got a awakened ninja. Best 1v1 with top single target bursts. Garbage at pve farming cuz poor aoe's in comparison to other classes and only good at +1ing, ganking stragglers etc in big team fights during node wars etc..
    Its op in 1v1 tho cuz a lot of iframe and has a grab which really strong in 1v1's.
    They burst hard, have crazy mobility and can stay long in a fight cuz I frames. Their ability to stay in fight needs shaved.
    To be fair to everyone that's complaining about thief here ninja and every other rogue like class gets these same complaints, go to any mmo forum and check out the complaints of rogue class and compare to amount regarding other classes lol.
    Thing is this team is the only one that ive ever seen that has stripped the rogue like class of its burst potential or at least has it on the lv of tanks or in some cases lower, it's crazy. If thief needed shaves that's fine but after all is said and done a rogue like classes burst shouldn't be one of its weakness, that's craziness. Anets team needs to learn how to balance ITS rogue like in a way that keeps it feeling like the archetype that thiefs mains chose it for. High burst/mobility low hp/armor.

  • Teb.6980Teb.6980 Member ✭✭

    I got my kitten punted by a thief with dual pistol who simply discharged from stealth repeatedly as I was dazed and condiblasted by poison, torment, and confusion during the 1.5 seconds that they were visible.

    Fun & balance™

    However, for the vast majority of thiefs, they feel kinda weak. Particularly when I'm trolling on my braindead burn guardian or tank/condi necros

  • @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @Project exa.3204 said:
    Does anybody else agree / disagree that changing a few mechanics would put new thief builds back into play and secure their niche in general ranked pvp?

    I think giving them the ability to strike through invulnerability or shields is not a HUGE ask or would be too out of character for thiefs. This makes their team viability much better, and would force enemy teams to actually address the thiefs before a snowball occured

    To resolve the stealth problems, they could give each class a new indicator above their utility skills for "there's a thief stealthed in your vicinity."
    --The "stealth detection" ability would be different depending on classes.
    --Rangers would have the highest stealth detection, while classes like warriors would have the lowest.
    --The closer they get to you the higher chance you have of detecting them before they can backstab
    --At the very least it gives people an idea of "I should be ready to evade as quickly as possible"

    Thoughts?
    -Eros of Ascalon

    thief would have the highest stealth detection, and also give them the ability to disarm traps

    I like this even better--disarming traps would be a nice mechanic, and add some more interest into thief 1v1s at contested points.
    -Eros of Ascalon

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Name one class in any mmo that is baseline glassy archetype that doesn't do or isn't design with high burst along side its mobility?

    Archer in bdo?

    Ninja far closer to the thiefs archetype design, hows it designed? Oh top single target burst, extremely good mobility and bad support and team fighting, invisibility and teleports etc, sound familiar except top single target burst of course :)

    wrong, ninja is good in large scale AND small scale, its universally broken.
    in bdo its all about landing cc first, ninja is the fastest so its the strongest, its bad in initiating large scale but its best at following up on the engage due to speed, its broken and hated and constantly nerfed.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Name one class in any mmo that is baseline glassy archetype that doesn't do or isn't design with high burst along side its mobility?

    Archer in bdo?

    Ninja far closer to the thiefs archetype design, hows it designed? Oh top single target burst and bad support and team fighting, invisibility etc, sound familiar except top single target burst of course :)

    U said glassy but yeah ninja is probably closer to thief design. Best 1v1 class in bdo from what I’ve heard

    It is, I've got a awakened ninja. Best 1v1 with top single target bursts. Garbage at pve farming cuz poor aoe's in comparison to other classes and only good at +1ing, ganking stragglers etc in big team fights during node wars etc..
    Its op in 1v1 tho cuz a lot of iframe and has a grab which really strong in 1v1's.
    They burst hard, have crazy mobility and can stay long in a fight cuz I frames. Their ability to stay in fight needs shaved.
    To be fair to everyone that's complaining about thief here ninja and every other rogue like class gets these same complaints, go to any mmo forum and check out the complaints of rogue class and compare to amount regarding other classes lol.
    Thing is this team is the only one that ive ever seen that has stripped the rogue like class of its burst potential or at least has it on the lv of tanks or in some cases lower, it's crazy. If thief needed shaves that's fine but after all is said and done a rogue like classes burst shouldn't be one of its weakness, that's craziness. Anets team needs to learn how to balance ITS rogue like in a way that keeps it feeling like the archetype that thiefs mains chose it for. High burst/mobility low hp/armor.

    Ninja got recently nerfed for being OP, now you can't oneshot high armor targets

    https://www.blackdesertonline.com/news/view/3712#Class

    ...No matter the game, no community will allow oppressive gameplay to prosper, high burst..moblity..evasion this combo cannot exist in the same build and it will be always target for nerfs

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Name one class in any mmo that is baseline glassy archetype that doesn't do or isn't design with high burst along side its mobility?

    Archer in bdo?

    Ninja far closer to the thiefs archetype design, hows it designed? Oh top single target burst, extremely good mobility and bad support and team fighting, invisibility and teleports etc, sound familiar except top single target burst of course :)

    wrong, ninja is good in large scale AND small scale, its universally broken.
    in bdo its all about landing cc first, ninja is the fastest so its the strongest, its bad in initiating large scale but its best at following up on the engage due to speed, its broken and hated and constantly nerfed.

    Wow u are so wrong lol. Ninja is gbage in group fights. U are literally the only person in existence who's ever said ninja in bdo is a good team fighter. Ninja wrecks in 1v1 that's it. Its known to all people that actually play bdo that ninja is mediocre at pve and team battles. U cant just make up claims that fit ur agenda and think there true buddy lmao. Go to bdo main forum and find one person that states they think ninja is food team fighter and for that one 300 people will be telling them their wrong. Good try tho. What u said about it all being about landing first cc and grab usually wins but that does little to $hit in large team fights with a ton of classes throwing massive aoe skills around and ranged skills that ninja doesnt even compare to. Like I said a ninja can pick of stragglers, hardly food team fight role. U know ur really trying to twist the narrative to fit ur biased views when u state ninja is a good team fighter to help prove ur point lol.
    I honestly can't think of a worse class in for large scale fight fights that are as bad as ninja, some may come close.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Name one class in any mmo that is baseline glassy archetype that doesn't do or isn't design with high burst along side its mobility?

    Archer in bdo?

    Ninja far closer to the thiefs archetype design, hows it designed? Oh top single target burst and bad support and team fighting, invisibility etc, sound familiar except top single target burst of course :)

    U said glassy but yeah ninja is probably closer to thief design. Best 1v1 class in bdo from what I’ve heard

    It is, I've got a awakened ninja. Best 1v1 with top single target bursts. Garbage at pve farming cuz poor aoe's in comparison to other classes and only good at +1ing, ganking stragglers etc in big team fights during node wars etc..
    Its op in 1v1 tho cuz a lot of iframe and has a grab which really strong in 1v1's.
    They burst hard, have crazy mobility and can stay long in a fight cuz I frames. Their ability to stay in fight needs shaved.
    To be fair to everyone that's complaining about thief here ninja and every other rogue like class gets these same complaints, go to any mmo forum and check out the complaints of rogue class and compare to amount regarding other classes lol.
    Thing is this team is the only one that ive ever seen that has stripped the rogue like class of its burst potential or at least has it on the lv of tanks or in some cases lower, it's crazy. If thief needed shaves that's fine but after all is said and done a rogue like classes burst shouldn't be one of its weakness, that's craziness. Anets team needs to learn how to balance ITS rogue like in a way that keeps it feeling like the archetype that thiefs mains chose it for. High burst/mobility low hp/armor.

    Ninja got recently nerfed for being OP, now you can't oneshot high armor targets

    https://www.blackdesertonline.com/news/view/3712#Class

    ...No matter the game, no community will allow oppressive gameplay to prosper, high burst..moblity..evasion this combo cannot exist in the same build and it will be always target for nerfs

    they can still 1shot high armor targets, what ninjas used to do was stacking evasion, while still 1shoting people, meaning you are bruiser that is fast as heck that 1shots people anyways :D

  • @darren.1064 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    This is really funny cause every thief main is being melodramatic, OU NOWS, thief can't oneshot people anymore like the last kitten patch and get all points. It is not even benched like most professions when they get the nerf bat, it is still meta. It is not like the previous season thieves were forcing people deeper in the bunker role since you couldn't catch up to them and they did hyper damage, thieves had their fun but now "ou my the turntables", everyone is on some type of bunker build, it is not like it wasn't expected.Thief meta just sucks for everyone else.
    I don't see much whining from warriors since they are kinda meh this patch, not bad, not good but still kinda there doing their thing , but then again rolling core necro or fb would probably be better.
    Calm your mammaries the current bunker builds would get a shave and thief will be able to stab them to death again, it is not like there aren't viable builds for thief.

    name a viable non-cheese build for thief.

    Well i can't cause the class is kinda cheese by default. Maybe they will make the next elite non cheese.

    Okay, now name a viable build for thief that uses cheese. I'll make it easier for you.

    Here you go https://metabattle.com/wiki/Thief, https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/thief. It is really funny cause there are allot of builds for thief on metabatlle and then looked at warrior having 2 which are kinda the same, lol. I think only engi had more builds listed then thief.

    I looked at those for 30 seconds and I can tell you right now that none of those builds are doing anything but showcasing my point further. They're simple +1 and decapping builds. None of them are winning a single 1v1.

    Well i ain't seeing warriors winning teamfights or reapers winning 1v1 welcome to the pigeonholed club your class is bad at something by design.

    The more you talk with thieves or mesmers..the more you realize how much they are affected by a god complex, it's like they're out of touch with reality..they're asking for a build that snip-snap around the map at will, engage/disengage equally at will and ofc be able to 1v1 and win against anybody.....really

    no. i'm asking to do damage. With every comment i'm bringing yall legit points. You guys are bringing opinions. I want a build that doesn't feel like tickles to a clown. Instead I do 500 damage an autoattack or 5k a Backstab. All while being the easiest profession to kill. I'm not asking for more than other professions. I'm asking for the bare minimum.

    if you want to do damage, give up your mobility and stealth. simple.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    This is really funny cause every thief main is being melodramatic, OU NOWS, thief can't oneshot people anymore like the last kitten patch and get all points. It is not even benched like most professions when they get the nerf bat, it is still meta. It is not like the previous season thieves were forcing people deeper in the bunker role since you couldn't catch up to them and they did hyper damage, thieves had their fun but now "ou my the turntables", everyone is on some type of bunker build, it is not like it wasn't expected.Thief meta just sucks for everyone else.
    I don't see much whining from warriors since they are kinda meh this patch, not bad, not good but still kinda there doing their thing , but then again rolling core necro or fb would probably be better.
    Calm your mammaries the current bunker builds would get a shave and thief will be able to stab them to death again, it is not like there aren't viable builds for thief.

    name a viable non-cheese build for thief.

    Well i can't cause the class is kinda cheese by default. Maybe they will make the next elite non cheese.

    Okay, now name a viable build for thief that uses cheese. I'll make it easier for you.

    Here you go https://metabattle.com/wiki/Thief, https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/thief. It is really funny cause there are allot of builds for thief on metabatlle and then looked at warrior having 2 which are kinda the same, lol. I think only engi had more builds listed then thief.

    I looked at those for 30 seconds and I can tell you right now that none of those builds are doing anything but showcasing my point further. They're simple +1 and decapping builds. None of them are winning a single 1v1.

    Well i ain't seeing warriors winning teamfights or reapers winning 1v1 welcome to the pigeonholed club your class is bad at something by design.

    The more you talk with thieves or mesmers..the more you realize how much they are affected by a god complex, it's like they're out of touch with reality..they're asking for a build that snip-snap around the map at will, engage/disengage equally at will and ofc be able to 1v1 and win against anybody.....really

    no. i'm asking to do damage. With every comment i'm bringing yall legit points. You guys are bringing opinions. I want a build that doesn't feel like tickles to a clown. Instead I do 500 damage an autoattack or 5k a Backstab. All while being the easiest profession to kill. I'm not asking for more than other professions. I'm asking for the bare minimum.

    if you want to do damage, give up your mobility and stealth. simple.

    No it's simple that THAT isnt a rule at all any further than some forum posters opinions on such. They indeed can have high burst, mobility and stealth while being squishy so...

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Project exa.3204 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    You're right, thief is so weak that 3/4 of the top 4 teams last mAT ran them, and I don't think this mAT will be any different.

    Yeah, and that's cool and all. Top 3/4 teams of mAT will always be in the top 3/4 teams. If Anet only cares about the top 1% of players that type of mentality is 100% ok.
    Not talking about the top 1% of players, because no matter what they're going to make classes work. Talking about the 99% of players who jump into thief thinking it's going to be fun, and end up getting rekt because the learning curve is so steep or because they are expected to have a singular purpose & don't understand fully how to play it.

    Do you disagree? You think that top 3/4 teams of mAT discredit the fact that thiefs (in general)--especially in solo or duo queue ranked where the majority of players play, makes the discussion points somehow NOT an issue? I don't.
    -Eros of Ascalon

    Thief is already a must have (pretty much) in high tier games. If you buff it for the mediocre people, it will just steamroll everything in high tier. We don't want a repeat of pre patch meta with double SA one shots.

    Its not. Actually quite the opposite, the high tier is dropping thief since its simply ineffective in the current meta. We also didnt have thief one-shots (far too low of a damage) or double thieves (2 thieves is a lot worse than one and usually ensures that you lose).

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    damage + mobility + no counterplay = bad time.
    in conquest every second counts, it doesnt matter that rev can deal more damage while they +1 if thief arrives 5s earlier and wins the fight on the sides already, most classes when pulled off get to be pulled off for a while and wont be able to fight back and have to wait to recover CD/health. sometimes shall push is all it takes.
    Now you gotta find those small pushes instead of traversing the map at the speed of light and booping bruisers for 60% hp from stealth.
    As it was said before, when holo/ranger/necro/rev and other bustaaad specs get some shaves thief will be fine, if you want to have different role learn different class.
    You dont see druids complaining they cant roam, necros that they cant stealth, its not their role.

    I'm really honored that you took the time out of your day to find the energy to comment on my post, but you haven't really contributed anything that I haven't already debunked already. Currently your +1 example doesn't even make sense because once again: "Thief doesn't do damage anymore."

    no, bad thiefs dont do damage anymore, the ones that took time to learn their class can still contribute

    I've gone top 100 multiple times and once again, i've been playing for years. Idk how many games I have but its in the thousands. I probably have more games on thief than you do overall. So please don't tell me that I'm a bad thief when I've put in years of learning to perfect the profession. I know every skill, trait, utility and elite. I kill streamers, I play in plat. This isn't a problem of bad thieves, this is a problem of all thieves. However, if other classes are allowed to be bad and still do damage: ranger, necro, guardian. Then why aren't thieves able to currently scavenge together a build? The entire thief thread is full of thieves asking if there's a single viable build to even play anymore. I doubt any other class currently has that problem. The answer to their question is no, thief has no viable build to play right now because people like you just complain that thief is still OP when it can't even do anything. So I would highly recommend that you do some introspection to become a better player and ask yourself what you can do better to kill thieves, and if you're feeling like you're still having trouble with thieves right now then oh buddy. I can promise you its not the thieves that are the problem but you yourself.

    there are people that played league longer then you played any game since you were born yet they are incapable of pushing past silver, time makes you play better only if you are capable of learning.
    as I said before, nerf broken bunker kitten and thief will be fine, what you lack right now is 2shoting people for free with no counterplay, too bad

    Ur not wrong it is the the majority of classes being far to bunker post patch that is making thief feel as week as it does but that also makes the thief players quarry of feeling their bursts are to weak legitimate. Whether its thief's burst was hit to hard,sustain is to low or if it's a bit of both the results are the same regarding thief players issue. This is anet were talking about right? What if they don't go the route of shaving the sustain on these classes but go a different route than thief's bursts would need looked at regardless.

    no, it wouldnt. its hard to believe but there are builds out there that are not made of 50k+ hp and perma protection.
    I do play wizard mirage from time to time and let me tell you thief can still put some real hurt into me, if you buff thief so it can pressure those 50k hp necros or 20k HP perma prot knights holos then my poor mirage will be obliterated with no tell, no counterplay and no ability to fight back. Do you think others can hurt those classes? do you think I can on mesmer? I go full glass with illusion+dueling+mirage on wizard amulet ( its like maruders ), even if I land 80% of their skills they fully sustain through that.
    I will have less sustain then thief, less dodges, less mobility but I cant hurt them regardless. As it stands you sick OP holo against another OP holo and call it a day, and I dont think there is a single roaming spec that will actually down competent holo, only chase them off the node. Maybe full glass ranger could do it? im unsure.

    The problem is that thief struggles to not just kill the full bunker builds, but even regular ones. You wont be obliterated without counterplay. The only part that has no counterplay is backstab (which is a problem, but I digress). That backstab will not hit you harder than, at the very most, 6k. Usually closer 4-5k. Your Wizard Mesmer has, what, over 20k hp? Thats less than a fourth of your health, and thats the majority of thieves damage, it just tapers off hard from there. So thief should be less than a gnat even to you.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 25, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Project exa.3204 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    You're right, thief is so weak that 3/4 of the top 4 teams last mAT ran them, and I don't think this mAT will be any different.

    Yeah, and that's cool and all. Top 3/4 teams of mAT will always be in the top 3/4 teams. If Anet only cares about the top 1% of players that type of mentality is 100% ok.
    Not talking about the top 1% of players, because no matter what they're going to make classes work. Talking about the 99% of players who jump into thief thinking it's going to be fun, and end up getting rekt because the learning curve is so steep or because they are expected to have a singular purpose & don't understand fully how to play it.

    Do you disagree? You think that top 3/4 teams of mAT discredit the fact that thiefs (in general)--especially in solo or duo queue ranked where the majority of players play, makes the discussion points somehow NOT an issue? I don't.
    -Eros of Ascalon

    Thief is already a must have (pretty much) in high tier games. If you buff it for the mediocre people, it will just steamroll everything in high tier. We don't want a repeat of pre patch meta with double SA one shots.

    Its not. Actually quite the opposite, the high tier is dropping thief since its simply ineffective in the current meta. We also didnt have thief one-shots (far too low of a damage) or double thieves (2 thieves is a lot worse than one and usually ensures that you lose).

    Man in all honesty just play a different class if ur like me and don't like how it feels anymore, there's other classes just as fun to use. Leave thief to vallun etc who think it's fine and move on ur gaming will be better and the thief players that like how it currently is can keep on doing so.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Project exa.3204 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    You're right, thief is so weak that 3/4 of the top 4 teams last mAT ran them, and I don't think this mAT will be any different.

    Yeah, and that's cool and all. Top 3/4 teams of mAT will always be in the top 3/4 teams. If Anet only cares about the top 1% of players that type of mentality is 100% ok.
    Not talking about the top 1% of players, because no matter what they're going to make classes work. Talking about the 99% of players who jump into thief thinking it's going to be fun, and end up getting rekt because the learning curve is so steep or because they are expected to have a singular purpose & don't understand fully how to play it.

    Do you disagree? You think that top 3/4 teams of mAT discredit the fact that thiefs (in general)--especially in solo or duo queue ranked where the majority of players play, makes the discussion points somehow NOT an issue? I don't.
    -Eros of Ascalon

    Thief is already a must have (pretty much) in high tier games. If you buff it for the mediocre people, it will just steamroll everything in high tier. We don't want a repeat of pre patch meta with double SA one shots.

    Its not. Actually quite the opposite, the high tier is dropping thief since its simply ineffective in the current meta. We also didnt have thief one-shots (far too low of a damage) or double thieves (2 thieves is a lot worse than one and usually ensures that you lose).

    Man in all honesty just play a different class if ur like me and don't like how it feels anymore, there's other classes just as fun to use. Leave thief to vallun etc who think it's fine and move on ur gaming will be better and the thief players that like how it currently is can keep on doing so.

    I mean, Ive been doing that for a while now. I havent really played thief in PvP since early last year or so. Im all aboard the core engi train. Do need to pick up Rev though. Maybe Warrior once I get that dagger skin I need.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    damage + mobility + no counterplay = bad time.
    in conquest every second counts, it doesnt matter that rev can deal more damage while they +1 if thief arrives 5s earlier and wins the fight on the sides already, most classes when pulled off get to be pulled off for a while and wont be able to fight back and have to wait to recover CD/health. sometimes shall push is all it takes.
    Now you gotta find those small pushes instead of traversing the map at the speed of light and booping bruisers for 60% hp from stealth.
    As it was said before, when holo/ranger/necro/rev and other bustaaad specs get some shaves thief will be fine, if you want to have different role learn different class.
    You dont see druids complaining they cant roam, necros that they cant stealth, its not their role.

    I'm really honored that you took the time out of your day to find the energy to comment on my post, but you haven't really contributed anything that I haven't already debunked already. Currently your +1 example doesn't even make sense because once again: "Thief doesn't do damage anymore."

    no, bad thiefs dont do damage anymore, the ones that took time to learn their class can still contribute

    I've gone top 100 multiple times and once again, i've been playing for years. Idk how many games I have but its in the thousands. I probably have more games on thief than you do overall. So please don't tell me that I'm a bad thief when I've put in years of learning to perfect the profession. I know every skill, trait, utility and elite. I kill streamers, I play in plat. This isn't a problem of bad thieves, this is a problem of all thieves. However, if other classes are allowed to be bad and still do damage: ranger, necro, guardian. Then why aren't thieves able to currently scavenge together a build? The entire thief thread is full of thieves asking if there's a single viable build to even play anymore. I doubt any other class currently has that problem. The answer to their question is no, thief has no viable build to play right now because people like you just complain that thief is still OP when it can't even do anything. So I would highly recommend that you do some introspection to become a better player and ask yourself what you can do better to kill thieves, and if you're feeling like you're still having trouble with thieves right now then oh buddy. I can promise you its not the thieves that are the problem but you yourself.

    there are people that played league longer then you played any game since you were born yet they are incapable of pushing past silver, time makes you play better only if you are capable of learning.
    as I said before, nerf broken bunker kitten and thief will be fine, what you lack right now is 2shoting people for free with no counterplay, too bad

    Ur not wrong it is the the majority of classes being far to bunker post patch that is making thief feel as week as it does but that also makes the thief players quarry of feeling their bursts are to weak legitimate. Whether its thief's burst was hit to hard,sustain is to low or if it's a bit of both the results are the same regarding thief players issue. This is anet were talking about right? What if they don't go the route of shaving the sustain on these classes but go a different route than thief's bursts would need looked at regardless.

    no, it wouldnt. its hard to believe but there are builds out there that are not made of 50k+ hp and perma protection.
    I do play wizard mirage from time to time and let me tell you thief can still put some real hurt into me, if you buff thief so it can pressure those 50k hp necros or 20k HP perma prot knights holos then my poor mirage will be obliterated with no tell, no counterplay and no ability to fight back. Do you think others can hurt those classes? do you think I can on mesmer? I go full glass with illusion+dueling+mirage on wizard amulet ( its like maruders ), even if I land 80% of their skills they fully sustain through that.
    I will have less sustain then thief, less dodges, less mobility but I cant hurt them regardless. As it stands you sick OP holo against another OP holo and call it a day, and I dont think there is a single roaming spec that will actually down competent holo, only chase them off the node. Maybe full glass ranger could do it? im unsure.

    The problem is that thief struggles to not just kill the full bunker builds, but even regular ones. You wont be obliterated without counterplay. The only part that has no counterplay is backstab (which is a problem, but I digress). That backstab will not hit you harder than, at the very most, 6k. Usually closer 4-5k. Your Wizard Mesmer has, what, over 20k hp? Thats less than a fourth of your health, and thats the majority of thieves damage, it just tapers off hard from there. So thief should be less than a gnat even to you.

    that would be true if thief just backstabed and thats it, there is backstab, mug, hearthseeker, followup autos before bugged model registers, venoms etc etc.
    and this is from the stuff that doesnt allow me to fight back, 1/3-1/2 is EASY taken from me insta from stealth, if not from stealth and hearth->mug->stab its usually over half HP but it is somewhat telegraphed.

    Mug does very little damage now. But sure, lets add that. Venoms and Siphoning are included in the damage as is. Heartseeker however? No. We said exclusively about things that have no counterplay. Heartseeker is a 0.75 second cast time skill. You absolutely can avoid the damage. Thats not "instant". And autos after that are even slower. So, doesnt really change anything. You still take about a quarter of your health at most before you can react.

    So no, just the stuff that doesnt allow you to fight back is backstab and its modifiers. Its a quarter of your health, or less, instant from stealth. Not 1/3, and certainly not even close to 1/2. And no, even heartseeker into mug into stab is not even close to 1/2 hp.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 25, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    damage + mobility + no counterplay = bad time.
    in conquest every second counts, it doesnt matter that rev can deal more damage while they +1 if thief arrives 5s earlier and wins the fight on the sides already, most classes when pulled off get to be pulled off for a while and wont be able to fight back and have to wait to recover CD/health. sometimes shall push is all it takes.
    Now you gotta find those small pushes instead of traversing the map at the speed of light and booping bruisers for 60% hp from stealth.
    As it was said before, when holo/ranger/necro/rev and other bustaaad specs get some shaves thief will be fine, if you want to have different role learn different class.
    You dont see druids complaining they cant roam, necros that they cant stealth, its not their role.

    I'm really honored that you took the time out of your day to find the energy to comment on my post, but you haven't really contributed anything that I haven't already debunked already. Currently your +1 example doesn't even make sense because once again: "Thief doesn't do damage anymore."

    no, bad thiefs dont do damage anymore, the ones that took time to learn their class can still contribute

    I've gone top 100 multiple times and once again, i've been playing for years. Idk how many games I have but its in the thousands. I probably have more games on thief than you do overall. So please don't tell me that I'm a bad thief when I've put in years of learning to perfect the profession. I know every skill, trait, utility and elite. I kill streamers, I play in plat. This isn't a problem of bad thieves, this is a problem of all thieves. However, if other classes are allowed to be bad and still do damage: ranger, necro, guardian. Then why aren't thieves able to currently scavenge together a build? The entire thief thread is full of thieves asking if there's a single viable build to even play anymore. I doubt any other class currently has that problem. The answer to their question is no, thief has no viable build to play right now because people like you just complain that thief is still OP when it can't even do anything. So I would highly recommend that you do some introspection to become a better player and ask yourself what you can do better to kill thieves, and if you're feeling like you're still having trouble with thieves right now then oh buddy. I can promise you its not the thieves that are the problem but you yourself.

    there are people that played league longer then you played any game since you were born yet they are incapable of pushing past silver, time makes you play better only if you are capable of learning.
    as I said before, nerf broken bunker kitten and thief will be fine, what you lack right now is 2shoting people for free with no counterplay, too bad

    Ur not wrong it is the the majority of classes being far to bunker post patch that is making thief feel as week as it does but that also makes the thief players quarry of feeling their bursts are to weak legitimate. Whether its thief's burst was hit to hard,sustain is to low or if it's a bit of both the results are the same regarding thief players issue. This is anet were talking about right? What if they don't go the route of shaving the sustain on these classes but go a different route than thief's bursts would need looked at regardless.

    no, it wouldnt. its hard to believe but there are builds out there that are not made of 50k+ hp and perma protection.
    I do play wizard mirage from time to time and let me tell you thief can still put some real hurt into me, if you buff thief so it can pressure those 50k hp necros or 20k HP perma prot knights holos then my poor mirage will be obliterated with no tell, no counterplay and no ability to fight back. Do you think others can hurt those classes? do you think I can on mesmer? I go full glass with illusion+dueling+mirage on wizard amulet ( its like maruders ), even if I land 80% of their skills they fully sustain through that.
    I will have less sustain then thief, less dodges, less mobility but I cant hurt them regardless. As it stands you sick OP holo against another OP holo and call it a day, and I dont think there is a single roaming spec that will actually down competent holo, only chase them off the node. Maybe full glass ranger could do it? im unsure.

    The problem is that thief struggles to not just kill the full bunker builds, but even regular ones. You wont be obliterated without counterplay. The only part that has no counterplay is backstab (which is a problem, but I digress). That backstab will not hit you harder than, at the very most, 6k. Usually closer 4-5k. Your Wizard Mesmer has, what, over 20k hp? Thats less than a fourth of your health, and thats the majority of thieves damage, it just tapers off hard from there. So thief should be less than a gnat even to you.

    that would be true if thief just backstabed and thats it, there is backstab, mug, hearthseeker, followup autos before bugged model registers, venoms etc etc.
    and this is from the stuff that doesnt allow me to fight back, 1/3-1/2 is EASY taken from me insta from stealth, if not from stealth and hearth->mug->stab its usually over half HP but it is somewhat telegraphed.

    Mug does very little damage now. But sure, lets add that. Venoms and Siphoning are included in the damage as is. Heartseeker however? No. We said exclusively about things that have no counterplay. Heartseeker is a 0.75 second cast time skill. You absolutely can avoid the damage. Thats not "instant". And autos after that are even slower. So, doesnt really change anything. You still take about a quarter of your health at most before you can react.

    So no, just the stuff that doesnt allow you to fight back is backstab and its modifiers. Its a quarter of your health, or less, instant from stealth. Not 1/3, and certainly not even close to 1/2. And no, even heartseeker into mug into stab is not even close to 1/2 hp.

    actually, skilled thief could time destealth with smoke field to leave stealth mid Heartseeker jump, so that it restealths instantly.
    that way HS is covered in stealth, at the end of its cast it leaves stealth -> mug->HS connects-> it stealths you ->backstab->1-2 basics before anyone can react.
    but that would take learning the timing, who needs that

    EDIT
    tested to make sure it works, it works 100% of the time I get the timing right.
    with assassins signet ( not activated to make it easy to do )
    scholar rune
    berserker amulet
    daredevil -> so still 13,3-13,5k HP
    I can take about 45%-50% from tough golem HP with HS+Backstab only.
    Extra dmg with followup autos or when used with signet the dmg would be bigger.
    sure hope I didnt just create new cancer lol

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    damage + mobility + no counterplay = bad time.
    in conquest every second counts, it doesnt matter that rev can deal more damage while they +1 if thief arrives 5s earlier and wins the fight on the sides already, most classes when pulled off get to be pulled off for a while and wont be able to fight back and have to wait to recover CD/health. sometimes shall push is all it takes.
    Now you gotta find those small pushes instead of traversing the map at the speed of light and booping bruisers for 60% hp from stealth.
    As it was said before, when holo/ranger/necro/rev and other bustaaad specs get some shaves thief will be fine, if you want to have different role learn different class.
    You dont see druids complaining they cant roam, necros that they cant stealth, its not their role.

    I'm really honored that you took the time out of your day to find the energy to comment on my post, but you haven't really contributed anything that I haven't already debunked already. Currently your +1 example doesn't even make sense because once again: "Thief doesn't do damage anymore."

    no, bad thiefs dont do damage anymore, the ones that took time to learn their class can still contribute

    I've gone top 100 multiple times and once again, i've been playing for years. Idk how many games I have but its in the thousands. I probably have more games on thief than you do overall. So please don't tell me that I'm a bad thief when I've put in years of learning to perfect the profession. I know every skill, trait, utility and elite. I kill streamers, I play in plat. This isn't a problem of bad thieves, this is a problem of all thieves. However, if other classes are allowed to be bad and still do damage: ranger, necro, guardian. Then why aren't thieves able to currently scavenge together a build? The entire thief thread is full of thieves asking if there's a single viable build to even play anymore. I doubt any other class currently has that problem. The answer to their question is no, thief has no viable build to play right now because people like you just complain that thief is still OP when it can't even do anything. So I would highly recommend that you do some introspection to become a better player and ask yourself what you can do better to kill thieves, and if you're feeling like you're still having trouble with thieves right now then oh buddy. I can promise you its not the thieves that are the problem but you yourself.

    there are people that played league longer then you played any game since you were born yet they are incapable of pushing past silver, time makes you play better only if you are capable of learning.
    as I said before, nerf broken bunker kitten and thief will be fine, what you lack right now is 2shoting people for free with no counterplay, too bad

    Ur not wrong it is the the majority of classes being far to bunker post patch that is making thief feel as week as it does but that also makes the thief players quarry of feeling their bursts are to weak legitimate. Whether its thief's burst was hit to hard,sustain is to low or if it's a bit of both the results are the same regarding thief players issue. This is anet were talking about right? What if they don't go the route of shaving the sustain on these classes but go a different route than thief's bursts would need looked at regardless.

    no, it wouldnt. its hard to believe but there are builds out there that are not made of 50k+ hp and perma protection.
    I do play wizard mirage from time to time and let me tell you thief can still put some real hurt into me, if you buff thief so it can pressure those 50k hp necros or 20k HP perma prot knights holos then my poor mirage will be obliterated with no tell, no counterplay and no ability to fight back. Do you think others can hurt those classes? do you think I can on mesmer? I go full glass with illusion+dueling+mirage on wizard amulet ( its like maruders ), even if I land 80% of their skills they fully sustain through that.
    I will have less sustain then thief, less dodges, less mobility but I cant hurt them regardless. As it stands you sick OP holo against another OP holo and call it a day, and I dont think there is a single roaming spec that will actually down competent holo, only chase them off the node. Maybe full glass ranger could do it? im unsure.

    The problem is that thief struggles to not just kill the full bunker builds, but even regular ones. You wont be obliterated without counterplay. The only part that has no counterplay is backstab (which is a problem, but I digress). That backstab will not hit you harder than, at the very most, 6k. Usually closer 4-5k. Your Wizard Mesmer has, what, over 20k hp? Thats less than a fourth of your health, and thats the majority of thieves damage, it just tapers off hard from there. So thief should be less than a gnat even to you.

    that would be true if thief just backstabed and thats it, there is backstab, mug, hearthseeker, followup autos before bugged model registers, venoms etc etc.
    and this is from the stuff that doesnt allow me to fight back, 1/3-1/2 is EASY taken from me insta from stealth, if not from stealth and hearth->mug->stab its usually over half HP but it is somewhat telegraphed.

    Mug does very little damage now. But sure, lets add that. Venoms and Siphoning are included in the damage as is. Heartseeker however? No. We said exclusively about things that have no counterplay. Heartseeker is a 0.75 second cast time skill. You absolutely can avoid the damage. Thats not "instant". And autos after that are even slower. So, doesnt really change anything. You still take about a quarter of your health at most before you can react.

    So no, just the stuff that doesnt allow you to fight back is backstab and its modifiers. Its a quarter of your health, or less, instant from stealth. Not 1/3, and certainly not even close to 1/2. And no, even heartseeker into mug into stab is not even close to 1/2 hp.

    actually, skilled thief could time destealth with smoke field to leave stealth mid Heartseeker jump, so that it restealths instantly.
    that way HS is covered in stealth, at the end of its cast it leaves stealth -> mug->HS connects-> it stealths you ->backstab->1-2 basics before anyone can react.
    but that would take learning the timing, who needs that

    Hold on, let me see if I get this one correctly. Your idea is to already be in stealth, use a smoke field (probably black powder, noone uses smokescreen anymore), wait for it to almost run out, then use heartseeker, wait until the stealth fully runs out, then mug into hit into backstab. Here is my 2 questions. First, why didnt you notice the pretty obvious smokescreen? Nevermind that its clearly visible (And they dont have the luxury of casting it outside of your sight range since Swipes range is low and heartseeker doesnt travel that far), its also pretty loud. There is no way you wouldnt see it and be able to react to it. But second, why would the thief do that? Nevermind that its kinda janky, it also fails if the enemy simply looks the wrong way. All that for a bit of extra damage that still falls woefully short of your 1/2.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 25, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    damage + mobility + no counterplay = bad time.
    in conquest every second counts, it doesnt matter that rev can deal more damage while they +1 if thief arrives 5s earlier and wins the fight on the sides already, most classes when pulled off get to be pulled off for a while and wont be able to fight back and have to wait to recover CD/health. sometimes shall push is all it takes.
    Now you gotta find those small pushes instead of traversing the map at the speed of light and booping bruisers for 60% hp from stealth.
    As it was said before, when holo/ranger/necro/rev and other bustaaad specs get some shaves thief will be fine, if you want to have different role learn different class.
    You dont see druids complaining they cant roam, necros that they cant stealth, its not their role.

    I'm really honored that you took the time out of your day to find the energy to comment on my post, but you haven't really contributed anything that I haven't already debunked already. Currently your +1 example doesn't even make sense because once again: "Thief doesn't do damage anymore."

    no, bad thiefs dont do damage anymore, the ones that took time to learn their class can still contribute

    I've gone top 100 multiple times and once again, i've been playing for years. Idk how many games I have but its in the thousands. I probably have more games on thief than you do overall. So please don't tell me that I'm a bad thief when I've put in years of learning to perfect the profession. I know every skill, trait, utility and elite. I kill streamers, I play in plat. This isn't a problem of bad thieves, this is a problem of all thieves. However, if other classes are allowed to be bad and still do damage: ranger, necro, guardian. Then why aren't thieves able to currently scavenge together a build? The entire thief thread is full of thieves asking if there's a single viable build to even play anymore. I doubt any other class currently has that problem. The answer to their question is no, thief has no viable build to play right now because people like you just complain that thief is still OP when it can't even do anything. So I would highly recommend that you do some introspection to become a better player and ask yourself what you can do better to kill thieves, and if you're feeling like you're still having trouble with thieves right now then oh buddy. I can promise you its not the thieves that are the problem but you yourself.

    there are people that played league longer then you played any game since you were born yet they are incapable of pushing past silver, time makes you play better only if you are capable of learning.
    as I said before, nerf broken bunker kitten and thief will be fine, what you lack right now is 2shoting people for free with no counterplay, too bad

    Ur not wrong it is the the majority of classes being far to bunker post patch that is making thief feel as week as it does but that also makes the thief players quarry of feeling their bursts are to weak legitimate. Whether its thief's burst was hit to hard,sustain is to low or if it's a bit of both the results are the same regarding thief players issue. This is anet were talking about right? What if they don't go the route of shaving the sustain on these classes but go a different route than thief's bursts would need looked at regardless.

    no, it wouldnt. its hard to believe but there are builds out there that are not made of 50k+ hp and perma protection.
    I do play wizard mirage from time to time and let me tell you thief can still put some real hurt into me, if you buff thief so it can pressure those 50k hp necros or 20k HP perma prot knights holos then my poor mirage will be obliterated with no tell, no counterplay and no ability to fight back. Do you think others can hurt those classes? do you think I can on mesmer? I go full glass with illusion+dueling+mirage on wizard amulet ( its like maruders ), even if I land 80% of their skills they fully sustain through that.
    I will have less sustain then thief, less dodges, less mobility but I cant hurt them regardless. As it stands you sick OP holo against another OP holo and call it a day, and I dont think there is a single roaming spec that will actually down competent holo, only chase them off the node. Maybe full glass ranger could do it? im unsure.

    The problem is that thief struggles to not just kill the full bunker builds, but even regular ones. You wont be obliterated without counterplay. The only part that has no counterplay is backstab (which is a problem, but I digress). That backstab will not hit you harder than, at the very most, 6k. Usually closer 4-5k. Your Wizard Mesmer has, what, over 20k hp? Thats less than a fourth of your health, and thats the majority of thieves damage, it just tapers off hard from there. So thief should be less than a gnat even to you.

    that would be true if thief just backstabed and thats it, there is backstab, mug, hearthseeker, followup autos before bugged model registers, venoms etc etc.
    and this is from the stuff that doesnt allow me to fight back, 1/3-1/2 is EASY taken from me insta from stealth, if not from stealth and hearth->mug->stab its usually over half HP but it is somewhat telegraphed.

    Mug does very little damage now. But sure, lets add that. Venoms and Siphoning are included in the damage as is. Heartseeker however? No. We said exclusively about things that have no counterplay. Heartseeker is a 0.75 second cast time skill. You absolutely can avoid the damage. Thats not "instant". And autos after that are even slower. So, doesnt really change anything. You still take about a quarter of your health at most before you can react.

    So no, just the stuff that doesnt allow you to fight back is backstab and its modifiers. Its a quarter of your health, or less, instant from stealth. Not 1/3, and certainly not even close to 1/2. And no, even heartseeker into mug into stab is not even close to 1/2 hp.

    actually, skilled thief could time destealth with smoke field to leave stealth mid Heartseeker jump, so that it restealths instantly.
    that way HS is covered in stealth, at the end of its cast it leaves stealth -> mug->HS connects-> it stealths you ->backstab->1-2 basics before anyone can react.
    but that would take learning the timing, who needs that

    Hold on, let me see if I get this one correctly. Your idea is to already be in stealth, use a smoke field (probably black powder, noone uses smokescreen anymore), wait for it to almost run out, then use heartseeker, wait until the stealth fully runs out, then mug into hit into backstab. Here is my 2 questions. First, why didnt you notice the pretty obvious smokescreen? Nevermind that its clearly visible (And they dont have the luxury of casting it outside of your sight range since Swipes range is low and heartseeker doesnt travel that far), its also pretty loud. There is no way you wouldnt see it and be able to react to it. But second, why would the thief do that? Nevermind that its kinda janky, it also fails if the enemy simply looks the wrong way. All that for a bit of extra damage that still falls woefully short of your 1/2.

    you dont have to be stealthed, you can use p5 -> hearthseeker, now your oponent has to dodge or he eats hearthseeker->mug->stab
    you wait 2,5s->HS ( in the same field ) ->mug->stab
    you make a threat of a stab when you place field, then you can do the same thing 2,5s later, or you can just continue stealthing.
    Im not saying its perfect, its hard to pull off. What I find interesting is that nobody has ever did this to me, nobody ever tried. After so many years you would thing that people would try everything, its cool that new cool tricks can still be made.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132
    https://imgur.com/gallery/dzJncPB
    this is the test I got.
    Thing to note.
    1 I forgot to mug, and due to that I missed many dmg modifiers.
    stealing inflicts -> poison,weakness, potentially confusion. that is 4-6% dmg from exposed weakness 6-8% with even the odds, should have taken it insead of revealed I think.
    3-4% dmg from compounding sigil
    3 might from thrill of crime
    I would also gain fury,might,swiftness,vigor that gives extra 2% dmg from enhancement sigil.
    Target above 50% so no executioner
    I also think i wasnt incombat so no lead attacks -> unsure of that one.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    damage + mobility + no counterplay = bad time.
    in conquest every second counts, it doesnt matter that rev can deal more damage while they +1 if thief arrives 5s earlier and wins the fight on the sides already, most classes when pulled off get to be pulled off for a while and wont be able to fight back and have to wait to recover CD/health. sometimes shall push is all it takes.
    Now you gotta find those small pushes instead of traversing the map at the speed of light and booping bruisers for 60% hp from stealth.
    As it was said before, when holo/ranger/necro/rev and other bustaaad specs get some shaves thief will be fine, if you want to have different role learn different class.
    You dont see druids complaining they cant roam, necros that they cant stealth, its not their role.

    I'm really honored that you took the time out of your day to find the energy to comment on my post, but you haven't really contributed anything that I haven't already debunked already. Currently your +1 example doesn't even make sense because once again: "Thief doesn't do damage anymore."

    no, bad thiefs dont do damage anymore, the ones that took time to learn their class can still contribute

    I've gone top 100 multiple times and once again, i've been playing for years. Idk how many games I have but its in the thousands. I probably have more games on thief than you do overall. So please don't tell me that I'm a bad thief when I've put in years of learning to perfect the profession. I know every skill, trait, utility and elite. I kill streamers, I play in plat. This isn't a problem of bad thieves, this is a problem of all thieves. However, if other classes are allowed to be bad and still do damage: ranger, necro, guardian. Then why aren't thieves able to currently scavenge together a build? The entire thief thread is full of thieves asking if there's a single viable build to even play anymore. I doubt any other class currently has that problem. The answer to their question is no, thief has no viable build to play right now because people like you just complain that thief is still OP when it can't even do anything. So I would highly recommend that you do some introspection to become a better player and ask yourself what you can do better to kill thieves, and if you're feeling like you're still having trouble with thieves right now then oh buddy. I can promise you its not the thieves that are the problem but you yourself.

    there are people that played league longer then you played any game since you were born yet they are incapable of pushing past silver, time makes you play better only if you are capable of learning.
    as I said before, nerf broken bunker kitten and thief will be fine, what you lack right now is 2shoting people for free with no counterplay, too bad

    Ur not wrong it is the the majority of classes being far to bunker post patch that is making thief feel as week as it does but that also makes the thief players quarry of feeling their bursts are to weak legitimate. Whether its thief's burst was hit to hard,sustain is to low or if it's a bit of both the results are the same regarding thief players issue. This is anet were talking about right? What if they don't go the route of shaving the sustain on these classes but go a different route than thief's bursts would need looked at regardless.

    no, it wouldnt. its hard to believe but there are builds out there that are not made of 50k+ hp and perma protection.
    I do play wizard mirage from time to time and let me tell you thief can still put some real hurt into me, if you buff thief so it can pressure those 50k hp necros or 20k HP perma prot knights holos then my poor mirage will be obliterated with no tell, no counterplay and no ability to fight back. Do you think others can hurt those classes? do you think I can on mesmer? I go full glass with illusion+dueling+mirage on wizard amulet ( its like maruders ), even if I land 80% of their skills they fully sustain through that.
    I will have less sustain then thief, less dodges, less mobility but I cant hurt them regardless. As it stands you sick OP holo against another OP holo and call it a day, and I dont think there is a single roaming spec that will actually down competent holo, only chase them off the node. Maybe full glass ranger could do it? im unsure.

    The problem is that thief struggles to not just kill the full bunker builds, but even regular ones. You wont be obliterated without counterplay. The only part that has no counterplay is backstab (which is a problem, but I digress). That backstab will not hit you harder than, at the very most, 6k. Usually closer 4-5k. Your Wizard Mesmer has, what, over 20k hp? Thats less than a fourth of your health, and thats the majority of thieves damage, it just tapers off hard from there. So thief should be less than a gnat even to you.

    that would be true if thief just backstabed and thats it, there is backstab, mug, hearthseeker, followup autos before bugged model registers, venoms etc etc.
    and this is from the stuff that doesnt allow me to fight back, 1/3-1/2 is EASY taken from me insta from stealth, if not from stealth and hearth->mug->stab its usually over half HP but it is somewhat telegraphed.

    Mug does very little damage now. But sure, lets add that. Venoms and Siphoning are included in the damage as is. Heartseeker however? No. We said exclusively about things that have no counterplay. Heartseeker is a 0.75 second cast time skill. You absolutely can avoid the damage. Thats not "instant". And autos after that are even slower. So, doesnt really change anything. You still take about a quarter of your health at most before you can react.

    So no, just the stuff that doesnt allow you to fight back is backstab and its modifiers. Its a quarter of your health, or less, instant from stealth. Not 1/3, and certainly not even close to 1/2. And no, even heartseeker into mug into stab is not even close to 1/2 hp.

    actually, skilled thief could time destealth with smoke field to leave stealth mid Heartseeker jump, so that it restealths instantly.
    that way HS is covered in stealth, at the end of its cast it leaves stealth -> mug->HS connects-> it stealths you ->backstab->1-2 basics before anyone can react.
    but that would take learning the timing, who needs that

    Hold on, let me see if I get this one correctly. Your idea is to already be in stealth, use a smoke field (probably black powder, noone uses smokescreen anymore), wait for it to almost run out, then use heartseeker, wait until the stealth fully runs out, then mug into hit into backstab. Here is my 2 questions. First, why didnt you notice the pretty obvious smokescreen? Nevermind that its clearly visible (And they dont have the luxury of casting it outside of your sight range since Swipes range is low and heartseeker doesnt travel that far), its also pretty loud. There is no way you wouldnt see it and be able to react to it. But second, why would the thief do that? Nevermind that its kinda janky, it also fails if the enemy simply looks the wrong way. All that for a bit of extra damage that still falls woefully short of your 1/2.

    you dont have to be stealthed, you can use p5 -> hearthseeker, now your oponent has to dodge or he eats hearthseeker->mug->stab
    you wait 2,5s->HS ( in the same field ) ->mug->stab
    you make a threat of a stab when you place field, then you can do the same thing 2,5s later, or you can just continue stealthing.
    Im not saying its perfect, its hard to pull off. What I find interesting is that nobody has ever did this to me, nobody ever tried. After so many years you would thing that people would try everything, its cool that new cool tricks can still be made.

    Oh, that combo. Yeah it exists. Its not used much, because its just too easily stopped. As for your suggestion, Im pretty sure that shouldnt work? The smoke field runs out a bit too quick. But there is a reason noone does it. Its really easily punished. Lets say you place the field, heartseeker, I dodge, and you move back to the field. Well, whats to stop me from chucking a handful of grenades at the field and making you lose most of your health? Thats the issue. I mean, thats generally the issue with trying to stealth up mid-combat. I can just punish it with ease.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    https://imgur.com/gallery/dzJncPB
    this is the test I got.
    Thing to note.
    1 I forgot to mug, and due to that I missed many dmg modifiers.
    stealing inflicts -> poison,weakness, potentially confusion. that is 4-6% dmg from exposed weakness 6-8% with even the odds, should have taken it insead of revealed I think.
    3-4% dmg from compounding sigil
    3 might from thrill of crime
    I would also gain fury,might,swiftness,vigor that gives extra 2% dmg from enhancement sigil.
    Target above 50% so no executioner
    I also think i wasnt incombat so no lead attacks -> unsure of that one.

    Well, I did expect a max damage build. Those arent really playable, you see what happened to Vallun when he tried a (slightly less max damage) version. Anyway, even with those modifiers added (rough math here), that shouldnt add any more than around 8% damage. Thats around 8k damage total. Even with a max damage build, thats only just above a third of the golems hp. Its also less than a single grenade barrage.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    https://imgur.com/gallery/dzJncPB
    this is the test I got.
    Thing to note.
    1 I forgot to mug, and due to that I missed many dmg modifiers.
    stealing inflicts -> poison,weakness, potentially confusion. that is 4-6% dmg from exposed weakness 6-8% with even the odds, should have taken it insead of revealed I think.
    3-4% dmg from compounding sigil
    3 might from thrill of crime
    I would also gain fury,might,swiftness,vigor that gives extra 2% dmg from enhancement sigil.
    Target above 50% so no executioner
    I also think i wasnt incombat so no lead attacks -> unsure of that one.

    Well, I did expect a max damage build. Those arent really playable, you see what happened to Vallun when he tried a (slightly less max damage) version. Anyway, even with those modifiers added (rough math here), that shouldnt add any more than around 8% damage. Thats around 8k damage total. Even with a max damage build, thats only just above a third of the golems hp. Its also less than a single grenade barrage.

    screen shows 7,3k dmg.
    3 might is about 3-4% dmg
    one sigil is 3%
    the other one is 2%
    exposed is 6%
    add in damage from mug lets say 800 to make it simple
    add in 1 basic attack before enemy does anything, how much is it? 1,5k? expecially since executioner might kick in there.
    also 5 vulnerability for 5% dmg but lose reveal power, so I assume it about cancels eachother.
    you have 7300 x 1,03 x 1,03 x 1,02 x 1,06 + 800 ( mug ) + 1500 ( basic attacks ) =10600 on heavy golem.
    On this particular build against heavy golem, my mesmer would take way more, and I suspect you could easy make a build that does same dmg if not more while being tanky, I kinda threw random things together. It steals boon, you could go DD to go through the block etc etc.

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 25, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    https://imgur.com/gallery/dzJncPB
    this is the test I got.
    Thing to note.
    1 I forgot to mug, and due to that I missed many dmg modifiers.
    stealing inflicts -> poison,weakness, potentially confusion. that is 4-6% dmg from exposed weakness 6-8% with even the odds, should have taken it insead of revealed I think.
    3-4% dmg from compounding sigil
    3 might from thrill of crime
    I would also gain fury,might,swiftness,vigor that gives extra 2% dmg from enhancement sigil.
    Target above 50% so no executioner
    I also think i wasnt incombat so no lead attacks -> unsure of that one.

    Well, I did expect a max damage build. Those arent really playable, you see what happened to Vallun when he tried a (slightly less max damage) version. Anyway, even with those modifiers added (rough math here), that shouldnt add any more than around 8% damage. Thats around 8k damage total. Even with a max damage build, thats only just above a third of the golems hp. Its also less than a single grenade barrage.

    Until you do the Barrage (0.5 sec cast time) , he can do 4 auto attacks for an extra 3000 damage(istant-istant--0,25-istant) , which scales with those modifiers > so they become 12k burst on Heavy targets .combined on the backstab

    So you where wrong about thief burst :P

    Mr/Ms Ncsoft, the West is weakened leaving space for new games(asian too). I know the ManaWo..ggs
    used the RnD Labs as testing ground,but can you let them be alone and not DMCA their video?
    Sincerely humble Butler, willigly letting his body to be exploited , or find another master -crystal ball

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    https://imgur.com/gallery/dzJncPB
    this is the test I got.
    Thing to note.
    1 I forgot to mug, and due to that I missed many dmg modifiers.
    stealing inflicts -> poison,weakness, potentially confusion. that is 4-6% dmg from exposed weakness 6-8% with even the odds, should have taken it insead of revealed I think.
    3-4% dmg from compounding sigil
    3 might from thrill of crime
    I would also gain fury,might,swiftness,vigor that gives extra 2% dmg from enhancement sigil.
    Target above 50% so no executioner
    I also think i wasnt incombat so no lead attacks -> unsure of that one.

    Well, I did expect a max damage build. Those arent really playable, you see what happened to Vallun when he tried a (slightly less max damage) version. Anyway, even with those modifiers added (rough math here), that shouldnt add any more than around 8% damage. Thats around 8k damage total. Even with a max damage build, thats only just above a third of the golems hp. Its also less than a single grenade barrage.

    screen shows 7,3k dmg.
    3 might is about 3-4% dmg

    Not with an active assassins signet. But sure.

    one sigil is 3%

    Only compounding should be active, which would be 2. 3 if you use even the odds, but then you lose the 200 power from revealed training.

    the other one is 2%

    Exploitation is the other one. it isnt used.

    exposed is 6%

    Should be 4%, unless you use Even the Odds. But then you lose 200 power from revealed training. Which is, what, 7-8%?

    add in damage from mug lets say 800 to make it simple
    add in 1 basic attack before enemy does anything, how much is it? 1,5k? expecially since executioner might kick in there.

    If you mean the full double strike? 1.2k, at best. Usually less. Its also not part of the instant combo.

    also 5 vulnerability for 5% dmg but lose reveal power, so I assume it about cancels eachother.

    Not quite, sadly. Revealed Training cancels out with the 5 vulnerability, as well as the entire sigil of compounding, and probably the might too. You lose quite a lot there.

    you have 7300 x 1,03 x 1,03 x 1,02 x 1,06 + 800 ( mug ) + 1500 ( basic attacks ) =10600 on heavy golem.

    A couple errors here. First, sigils dont stack multiplicatively, but additively with each other. Dont ask me why. It makes no sense, but its how it works. Second, you also lose out on the sigil of compounding and the might. So its 7300 x 1.02 x 1.06 + 800 (sure, if we add mug). Thats still under 10k, and its a build that, as I said, just isnt functional.

    On this particular build against heavy golem, my mesmer would take way more, and I suspect you could easy make a build that does same dmg if not more while being tanky, I kinda threw random things together. It steals boon, you could go DD to go through the block etc etc.

    Mesmer does more even with a fully dedicated non-damage traitline in Chaos. And thats power shatter mesmer. Cant imagine Mirage isnt even better. Also, you couldnt. As I said, its a max damage build. The only way to do more damage is to swap hidden killer for No Quarter. Swap any of those traitlines out for one that is tankier, and you lose a ton of damage. Thats also why this buildnt isnt run, btw.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    https://imgur.com/gallery/dzJncPB
    this is the test I got.
    Thing to note.
    1 I forgot to mug, and due to that I missed many dmg modifiers.
    stealing inflicts -> poison,weakness, potentially confusion. that is 4-6% dmg from exposed weakness 6-8% with even the odds, should have taken it insead of revealed I think.
    3-4% dmg from compounding sigil
    3 might from thrill of crime
    I would also gain fury,might,swiftness,vigor that gives extra 2% dmg from enhancement sigil.
    Target above 50% so no executioner
    I also think i wasnt incombat so no lead attacks -> unsure of that one.

    Well, I did expect a max damage build. Those arent really playable, you see what happened to Vallun when he tried a (slightly less max damage) version. Anyway, even with those modifiers added (rough math here), that shouldnt add any more than around 8% damage. Thats around 8k damage total. Even with a max damage build, thats only just above a third of the golems hp. Its also less than a single grenade barrage.

    Until you do the Barrage (0.5 sec cast time) , he can do 4 auto attacks for an extra 3000 damage(istant-istant--0,25-istant) , which scales with those modifiers > so they become 12k burst on Heavy targets .combined on the backstab
    Which he can repeat it with every stealth , but you have 1x Grenade Barrgage :P

    So you where wrong about thief burst :P

    Ive never seen someone so undeterred by their lack of knowledge about thief. The Dagger autoattacks are much, much slower than that. The whole sequence is 1.68 seconds. So you cant include it. Sorry. Wrong as always.

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 25, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    https://imgur.com/gallery/dzJncPB
    this is the test I got.
    Thing to note.
    1 I forgot to mug, and due to that I missed many dmg modifiers.
    stealing inflicts -> poison,weakness, potentially confusion. that is 4-6% dmg from exposed weakness 6-8% with even the odds, should have taken it insead of revealed I think.
    3-4% dmg from compounding sigil
    3 might from thrill of crime
    I would also gain fury,might,swiftness,vigor that gives extra 2% dmg from enhancement sigil.
    Target above 50% so no executioner
    I also think i wasnt incombat so no lead attacks -> unsure of that one.

    Well, I did expect a max damage build. Those arent really playable, you see what happened to Vallun when he tried a (slightly less max damage) version. Anyway, even with those modifiers added (rough math here), that shouldnt add any more than around 8% damage. Thats around 8k damage total. Even with a max damage build, thats only just above a third of the golems hp. Its also less than a single grenade barrage.

    Until you do the Barrage (0.5 sec cast time) , he can do 4 auto attacks for an extra 3000 damage(istant-istant--0,25-istant) , which scales with those modifiers > so they become 12k burst on Heavy targets .combined on the backstab
    Which he can repeat it with every stealth , but you have 1x Grenade Barrgage :P

    So you where wrong about thief burst :P

    Ive never seen someone so undeterred by their lack of knowledge about thief. The Dagger autoattacks are much, much slower than that. The whole sequence is 1.68 seconds. So you cant include it. Sorry. Wrong as always.

    They dont have internal global cd global cd (wait 0.25) before they can do the other attack :P
    Before the culling ( you go in stealth 0,15 after the execute the stealth combo > and you are releaved 0,15 after) you are already in the second ayto attack

    So thief cannot burst , that you proclaimed all thise time , is wrong :P
    You should have listened to be and not use defensive traiits :P

    Mr/Ms Ncsoft, the West is weakened leaving space for new games(asian too). I know the ManaWo..ggs
    used the RnD Labs as testing ground,but can you let them be alone and not DMCA their video?
    Sincerely humble Butler, willigly letting his body to be exploited , or find another master -crystal ball

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    https://imgur.com/gallery/dzJncPB
    this is the test I got.
    Thing to note.
    1 I forgot to mug, and due to that I missed many dmg modifiers.
    stealing inflicts -> poison,weakness, potentially confusion. that is 4-6% dmg from exposed weakness 6-8% with even the odds, should have taken it insead of revealed I think.
    3-4% dmg from compounding sigil
    3 might from thrill of crime
    I would also gain fury,might,swiftness,vigor that gives extra 2% dmg from enhancement sigil.
    Target above 50% so no executioner
    I also think i wasnt incombat so no lead attacks -> unsure of that one.

    Well, I did expect a max damage build. Those arent really playable, you see what happened to Vallun when he tried a (slightly less max damage) version. Anyway, even with those modifiers added (rough math here), that shouldnt add any more than around 8% damage. Thats around 8k damage total. Even with a max damage build, thats only just above a third of the golems hp. Its also less than a single grenade barrage.

    Until you do the Barrage (0.5 sec cast time) , he can do 4 auto attacks for an extra 3000 damage(istant-istant--0,25-istant) , which scales with those modifiers > so they become 12k burst on Heavy targets .combined on the backstab
    Which he can repeat it with every stealth , but you have 1x Grenade Barrgage :P

    So you where wrong about thief burst :P

    Ive never seen someone so undeterred by their lack of knowledge about thief. The Dagger autoattacks are much, much slower than that. The whole sequence is 1.68 seconds. So you cant include it. Sorry. Wrong as always.

    They dont have internal global cd global cd (wait 0.25) before they can do the other attack :P
    Before the culling ( you go in stealth 0,15 after the execute the stealth combo > and you are releaved 0,15 after) you are already in the second ayto attack

    Global ... cooldown? This is GW2, not WoW. There is no global cooldown. And the rest is just your typical rambling nonsense, so I will ignore it.

    So thief cannot burst , that you proclaimed all thise time , is wrong :P
    You should have listened to be and not use defensive traiits :P

    Oh no, its still correct. That build is still unplayable. And you know why I didnt listen to you? You are wrong about everything. I dont listen to wrong things.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 25, 2020

    i was deciding if i was just was going to start a new thread or to find a thread to this sad experience. So i decided to post this here since it specifies Thief Profession. I don't know why this was new to me but for some reasons, it did. Perhaps maybe it has been a very long time since ive experienced it, perhaps so??

    While I was helping the Commander with the squad to overtake a enemy camp, i noticed there was another Commander on the map who was already there. I departed from the squad to take a look to see if i can help that commander as well. When i arrived, that Commander had a small group with her so i helped her for a bit than returned to the Commander.

    Few minutes later, that Commander called for help in the map chat and again i disparted to help her...than returned to the Commander with the squad.
    Than about 5 minutes later, she called for help, she said in map, 'why doesn't anyone want to come to join me?' something like that along the line.

    I then disparted to help that Commander knowing the Values and Respect i have for Commanders. As i was heading to help her, there were several responses in the map chat that were hurtful. I was 10 seconds to to her location, she waypoint to the main camp keep.

    She still had her tag on, and i tried to assure her that it was ok and to not bother with their comments. She said that it was ok and as she was speaking, i noticed that she was a Thief Profession player

    It was all because she was a Thief Profession player.....as she tried to not be hurt. Our conversation lasted for few minutes than she tagged down and went away,

    Afterward, i stood there for few minutes trying to hold myself together, trying to see put all the pieces together.

    She later P.M to say Thank You! for Caring about helping her with the party she had who took off after i left and that shes used to it and that is ok'

    Thief Profession being a Toxic Bad Design should not be reason to treat them unfairly with hurtful words nor to be discriminated against or to completely be ignored...especially for being a Commander.

    -that is all- :(

    'Situations that are present are there because you allow and tolerate them to continue'

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 25, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    https://imgur.com/gallery/dzJncPB
    this is the test I got.
    Thing to note.
    1 I forgot to mug, and due to that I missed many dmg modifiers.
    stealing inflicts -> poison,weakness, potentially confusion. that is 4-6% dmg from exposed weakness 6-8% with even the odds, should have taken it insead of revealed I think.
    3-4% dmg from compounding sigil
    3 might from thrill of crime
    I would also gain fury,might,swiftness,vigor that gives extra 2% dmg from enhancement sigil.
    Target above 50% so no executioner
    I also think i wasnt incombat so no lead attacks -> unsure of that one.

    Well, I did expect a max damage build. Those arent really playable, you see what happened to Vallun when he tried a (slightly less max damage) version. Anyway, even with those modifiers added (rough math here), that shouldnt add any more than around 8% damage. Thats around 8k damage total. Even with a max damage build, thats only just above a third of the golems hp. Its also less than a single grenade barrage.

    Until you do the Barrage (0.5 sec cast time) , he can do 4 auto attacks for an extra 3000 damage(istant-istant--0,25-istant) , which scales with those modifiers > so they become 12k burst on Heavy targets .combined on the backstab
    Which he can repeat it with every stealth , but you have 1x Grenade Barrgage :P

    So you where wrong about thief burst :P

    Ive never seen someone so undeterred by their lack of knowledge about thief. The Dagger autoattacks are much, much slower than that. The whole sequence is 1.68 seconds. So you cant include it. Sorry. Wrong as always.

    They dont have internal global cd global cd (wait 0.25) before they can do the other attack :P
    Before the culling ( you go in stealth 0,15 after the execute the stealth combo > and you are releaved 0,15 after) you are already in the second ayto attack

    Global ... cooldown? This is GW2, not WoW. There is no global cooldown. And the rest is just your typical rambling nonsense, so I will ignore it.

    So thief cannot burst , that you proclaimed all thise time , is wrong :P
    You should have listened to be and not use defensive traiits :P

    Oh no, its still correct. That build is still unplayable. And you know why I didnt listen to you? You are wrong about everything. I dont listen to wrong things.

    What is correct ?
    You add up to the Mesmers The Mirror Blade +Mind stab + other 0,5 sec cast time spells to their Burst .
    And just happen to forget that auto attacks can help add up the to the damage ?
    You are not correct . You where never :P I was :P

    Mr/Ms Ncsoft, the West is weakened leaving space for new games(asian too). I know the ManaWo..ggs
    used the RnD Labs as testing ground,but can you let them be alone and not DMCA their video?
    Sincerely humble Butler, willigly letting his body to be exploited , or find another master -crystal ball

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    https://imgur.com/gallery/dzJncPB
    this is the test I got.
    Thing to note.
    1 I forgot to mug, and due to that I missed many dmg modifiers.
    stealing inflicts -> poison,weakness, potentially confusion. that is 4-6% dmg from exposed weakness 6-8% with even the odds, should have taken it insead of revealed I think.
    3-4% dmg from compounding sigil
    3 might from thrill of crime
    I would also gain fury,might,swiftness,vigor that gives extra 2% dmg from enhancement sigil.
    Target above 50% so no executioner
    I also think i wasnt incombat so no lead attacks -> unsure of that one.

    Well, I did expect a max damage build. Those arent really playable, you see what happened to Vallun when he tried a (slightly less max damage) version. Anyway, even with those modifiers added (rough math here), that shouldnt add any more than around 8% damage. Thats around 8k damage total. Even with a max damage build, thats only just above a third of the golems hp. Its also less than a single grenade barrage.

    Until you do the Barrage (0.5 sec cast time) , he can do 4 auto attacks for an extra 3000 damage(istant-istant--0,25-istant) , which scales with those modifiers > so they become 12k burst on Heavy targets .combined on the backstab
    Which he can repeat it with every stealth , but you have 1x Grenade Barrgage :P

    So you where wrong about thief burst :P

    Ive never seen someone so undeterred by their lack of knowledge about thief. The Dagger autoattacks are much, much slower than that. The whole sequence is 1.68 seconds. So you cant include it. Sorry. Wrong as always.

    They dont have internal global cd global cd (wait 0.25) before they can do the other attack :P
    Before the culling ( you go in stealth 0,15 after the execute the stealth combo > and you are releaved 0,15 after) you are already in the second ayto attack

    Global ... cooldown? This is GW2, not WoW. There is no global cooldown. And the rest is just your typical rambling nonsense, so I will ignore it.

    So thief cannot burst , that you proclaimed all thise time , is wrong :P
    You should have listened to be and not use defensive traiits :P

    Oh no, its still correct. That build is still unplayable. And you know why I didnt listen to you? You are wrong about everything. I dont listen to wrong things.

    What is correct ?
    You add up to the Mesmers The Mirror Blade +Mind stab + other 0,5 sec cast time spells to their Burst .

    I dont add Mind Stab. Or any cast time spells other than mirror blade, which gets pre-cast in stealth. I only add together damage that all happens in an instant. Since, you know, thats the point.

    And just happen to forget that auto attacks can help add up the to the damage ?

    Autoattacks arent part of the instant burst. If I wanted to add those, I would stuff like Mind Stab to Mesmer. But then the damage gap gets even bigger in Mesmers favour.

    You are not correct . You where never :P THta why we argue about ''Myopia'' :P

    You really love that word. You heard it once ,thought it sounded smart, and tried to use it as much as possible, even when it makes no sense to use it. Im sorry to say, but it doesnt sound smart. It just makes you look like a fool.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Thief has teleports, stealth and tons of evades so it damage should be on the Lower end. To be honest stealth should be capped at 3 secs across all classes and sw2 should cost far more ini due to it's ability to make plays other classes cant.
    Nerf thief!

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 25, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    https://imgur.com/gallery/dzJncPB
    this is the test I got.
    Thing to note.
    1 I forgot to mug, and due to that I missed many dmg modifiers.
    stealing inflicts -> poison,weakness, potentially confusion. that is 4-6% dmg from exposed weakness 6-8% with even the odds, should have taken it insead of revealed I think.
    3-4% dmg from compounding sigil
    3 might from thrill of crime
    I would also gain fury,might,swiftness,vigor that gives extra 2% dmg from enhancement sigil.
    Target above 50% so no executioner
    I also think i wasnt incombat so no lead attacks -> unsure of that one.

    Well, I did expect a max damage build. Those arent really playable, you see what happened to Vallun when he tried a (slightly less max damage) version. Anyway, even with those modifiers added (rough math here), that shouldnt add any more than around 8% damage. Thats around 8k damage total. Even with a max damage build, thats only just above a third of the golems hp. Its also less than a single grenade barrage.

    Until you do the Barrage (0.5 sec cast time) , he can do 4 auto attacks for an extra 3000 damage(istant-istant--0,25-istant) , which scales with those modifiers > so they become 12k burst on Heavy targets .combined on the backstab
    Which he can repeat it with every stealth , but you have 1x Grenade Barrgage :P

    So you where wrong about thief burst :P

    Ive never seen someone so undeterred by their lack of knowledge about thief. The Dagger autoattacks are much, much slower than that. The whole sequence is 1.68 seconds. So you cant include it. Sorry. Wrong as always.

    They dont have internal global cd global cd (wait 0.25) before they can do the other attack :P
    Before the culling ( you go in stealth 0,15 after the execute the stealth combo > and you are releaved 0,15 after) you are already in the second ayto attack

    Global ... cooldown? This is GW2, not WoW. There is no global cooldown. And the rest is just your typical rambling nonsense, so I will ignore it.

    So thief cannot burst , that you proclaimed all thise time , is wrong :P
    You should have listened to be and not use defensive traiits :P

    Oh no, its still correct. That build is still unplayable. And you know why I didnt listen to you? You are wrong about everything. I dont listen to wrong things.

    What is correct ?
    You add up to the Mesmers The Mirror Blade +Mind stab + other 0,5 sec cast time spells to their Burst .

    I dont add Mind Stab. Or any cast time spells other than mirror blade, which gets pre-cast in stealth. I only add together damage that all happens in an instant. Since, you know, thats the point.

    And just happen to forget that auto attacks can help add up the to the damage ?

    Autoattacks arent part of the instant burst. If I wanted to add those, I would stuff like Mind Stab to Mesmer. But then the damage gap gets even bigger in Mesmers favour.

    You are not correct . You where never :P THta why we argue about ''Myopia'' :P

    You really love that word. You heard it once ,thought it sounded smart, and tried to use it as much as possible, even when it makes no sense to use it. Im sorry to say, but it doesnt sound smart. It just makes you look like a fool.

    a)If they precasted Mind stab +Mirror blade , then you know where the mesmers is , why you whined about Mesmers doing ''cannot'' dodge dmage in the Mesmers thread ?
    b) auto attacka are part of the rotation . Mind stab has a cd .
    c)You really love that word. You heard it once ,thought it sounded smart, and tried to use it as much as possible, even when it makes no sense to use it. Im sorry to say, but it doesnt sound smart. It just makes you look like a fool.
    d) Agin you hwre wrong , that thief cant burst :P

    Mr/Ms Ncsoft, the West is weakened leaving space for new games(asian too). I know the ManaWo..ggs
    used the RnD Labs as testing ground,but can you let them be alone and not DMCA their video?
    Sincerely humble Butler, willigly letting his body to be exploited , or find another master -crystal ball

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    https://imgur.com/gallery/dzJncPB
    this is the test I got.
    Thing to note.
    1 I forgot to mug, and due to that I missed many dmg modifiers.
    stealing inflicts -> poison,weakness, potentially confusion. that is 4-6% dmg from exposed weakness 6-8% with even the odds, should have taken it insead of revealed I think.
    3-4% dmg from compounding sigil
    3 might from thrill of crime
    I would also gain fury,might,swiftness,vigor that gives extra 2% dmg from enhancement sigil.
    Target above 50% so no executioner
    I also think i wasnt incombat so no lead attacks -> unsure of that one.

    Well, I did expect a max damage build. Those arent really playable, you see what happened to Vallun when he tried a (slightly less max damage) version. Anyway, even with those modifiers added (rough math here), that shouldnt add any more than around 8% damage. Thats around 8k damage total. Even with a max damage build, thats only just above a third of the golems hp. Its also less than a single grenade barrage.

    Until you do the Barrage (0.5 sec cast time) , he can do 4 auto attacks for an extra 3000 damage(istant-istant--0,25-istant) , which scales with those modifiers > so they become 12k burst on Heavy targets .combined on the backstab
    Which he can repeat it with every stealth , but you have 1x Grenade Barrgage :P

    So you where wrong about thief burst :P

    Ive never seen someone so undeterred by their lack of knowledge about thief. The Dagger autoattacks are much, much slower than that. The whole sequence is 1.68 seconds. So you cant include it. Sorry. Wrong as always.

    They dont have internal global cd global cd (wait 0.25) before they can do the other attack :P
    Before the culling ( you go in stealth 0,15 after the execute the stealth combo > and you are releaved 0,15 after) you are already in the second ayto attack

    Global ... cooldown? This is GW2, not WoW. There is no global cooldown. And the rest is just your typical rambling nonsense, so I will ignore it.

    So thief cannot burst , that you proclaimed all thise time , is wrong :P
    You should have listened to be and not use defensive traiits :P

    Oh no, its still correct. That build is still unplayable. And you know why I didnt listen to you? You are wrong about everything. I dont listen to wrong things.

    What is correct ?
    You add up to the Mesmers The Mirror Blade +Mind stab + other 0,5 sec cast time spells to their Burst .

    I dont add Mind Stab. Or any cast time spells other than mirror blade, which gets pre-cast in stealth. I only add together damage that all happens in an instant. Since, you know, thats the point.

    And just happen to forget that auto attacks can help add up the to the damage ?

    Autoattacks arent part of the instant burst. If I wanted to add those, I would stuff like Mind Stab to Mesmer. But then the damage gap gets even bigger in Mesmers favour.

    You are not correct . You where never :P THta why we argue about ''Myopia'' :P

    You really love that word. You heard it once ,thought it sounded smart, and tried to use it as much as possible, even when it makes no sense to use it. Im sorry to say, but it doesnt sound smart. It just makes you look like a fool.

    a)If they precasted Mind stab +Mirror blade , then you know where the mesmers is , why you whined about Mesmers doing ''cannot'' dodge dmage in the Mesmers thread ?

    Out of combat stealth.

    b) auto attacka are part of the rotation . Mind stab has a cd .

    Doesnt matter, you dont burst every second.

  • @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    https://imgur.com/gallery/dzJncPB
    this is the test I got.
    Thing to note.
    1 I forgot to mug, and due to that I missed many dmg modifiers.
    stealing inflicts -> poison,weakness, potentially confusion. that is 4-6% dmg from exposed weakness 6-8% with even the odds, should have taken it insead of revealed I think.
    3-4% dmg from compounding sigil
    3 might from thrill of crime
    I would also gain fury,might,swiftness,vigor that gives extra 2% dmg from enhancement sigil.
    Target above 50% so no executioner
    I also think i wasnt incombat so no lead attacks -> unsure of that one.

    Well, I did expect a max damage build. Those arent really playable, you see what happened to Vallun when he tried a (slightly less max damage) version. Anyway, even with those modifiers added (rough math here), that shouldnt add any more than around 8% damage. Thats around 8k damage total. Even with a max damage build, thats only just above a third of the golems hp. Its also less than a single grenade barrage.

    Until you do the Barrage (0.5 sec cast time) , he can do 4 auto attacks for an extra 3000 damage(istant-istant--0,25-istant) , which scales with those modifiers > so they become 12k burst on Heavy targets .combined on the backstab
    Which he can repeat it with every stealth , but you have 1x Grenade Barrgage :P

    So you where wrong about thief burst :P

    Ive never seen someone so undeterred by their lack of knowledge about thief. The Dagger autoattacks are much, much slower than that. The whole sequence is 1.68 seconds. So you cant include it. Sorry. Wrong as always.

    They dont have internal global cd global cd (wait 0.25) before they can do the other attack :P
    Before the culling ( you go in stealth 0,15 after the execute the stealth combo > and you are releaved 0,15 after) you are already in the second ayto attack

    Global ... cooldown? This is GW2, not WoW. There is no global cooldown. And the rest is just your typical rambling nonsense, so I will ignore it.

    So thief cannot burst , that you proclaimed all thise time , is wrong :P
    You should have listened to be and not use defensive traiits :P

    Oh no, its still correct. That build is still unplayable. And you know why I didnt listen to you? You are wrong about everything. I dont listen to wrong things.

    What is correct ?
    You add up to the Mesmers The Mirror Blade +Mind stab + other 0,5 sec cast time spells to their Burst .

    I dont add Mind Stab. Or any cast time spells other than mirror blade, which gets pre-cast in stealth. I only add together damage that all happens in an instant. Since, you know, thats the point.

    And just happen to forget that auto attacks can help add up the to the damage ?

    Autoattacks arent part of the instant burst. If I wanted to add those, I would stuff like Mind Stab to Mesmer. But then the damage gap gets even bigger in Mesmers favour.

    You are not correct . You where never :P THta why we argue about ''Myopia'' :P

    You really love that word. You heard it once ,thought it sounded smart, and tried to use it as much as possible, even when it makes no sense to use it. Im sorry to say, but it doesnt sound smart. It just makes you look like a fool.

    a)If they precasted Mind stab +Mirror blade , then you know where the mesmers is , why you whined about Mesmers doing ''cannot'' dodge dmage in the Mesmers thread ?

    Out of combat stealth.

    b) auto attacka are part of the rotation . Mind stab has a cd .

    Doesnt matter, you dont burst every second.

    1) You can avoid those 2 spells out of combat . Both are 0.5 sec cst time . They cannot use for the Burst stealth for istant undodgable damage , that you said in the past
    2) Wott ? If you avoid those 2x 0,5 cast spells , you halved the damage of the Mesmer , So its burst lies at 9k also :P
    3) Thief cant burst :P

    Mr/Ms Ncsoft, the West is weakened leaving space for new games(asian too). I know the ManaWo..ggs
    used the RnD Labs as testing ground,but can you let them be alone and not DMCA their video?
    Sincerely humble Butler, willigly letting his body to be exploited , or find another master -crystal ball

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    https://imgur.com/gallery/dzJncPB
    this is the test I got.
    Thing to note.
    1 I forgot to mug, and due to that I missed many dmg modifiers.
    stealing inflicts -> poison,weakness, potentially confusion. that is 4-6% dmg from exposed weakness 6-8% with even the odds, should have taken it insead of revealed I think.
    3-4% dmg from compounding sigil
    3 might from thrill of crime
    I would also gain fury,might,swiftness,vigor that gives extra 2% dmg from enhancement sigil.
    Target above 50% so no executioner
    I also think i wasnt incombat so no lead attacks -> unsure of that one.

    Well, I did expect a max damage build. Those arent really playable, you see what happened to Vallun when he tried a (slightly less max damage) version. Anyway, even with those modifiers added (rough math here), that shouldnt add any more than around 8% damage. Thats around 8k damage total. Even with a max damage build, thats only just above a third of the golems hp. Its also less than a single grenade barrage.

    Until you do the Barrage (0.5 sec cast time) , he can do 4 auto attacks for an extra 3000 damage(istant-istant--0,25-istant) , which scales with those modifiers > so they become 12k burst on Heavy targets .combined on the backstab
    Which he can repeat it with every stealth , but you have 1x Grenade Barrgage :P

    So you where wrong about thief burst :P

    Ive never seen someone so undeterred by their lack of knowledge about thief. The Dagger autoattacks are much, much slower than that. The whole sequence is 1.68 seconds. So you cant include it. Sorry. Wrong as always.

    They dont have internal global cd global cd (wait 0.25) before they can do the other attack :P
    Before the culling ( you go in stealth 0,15 after the execute the stealth combo > and you are releaved 0,15 after) you are already in the second ayto attack

    Global ... cooldown? This is GW2, not WoW. There is no global cooldown. And the rest is just your typical rambling nonsense, so I will ignore it.

    So thief cannot burst , that you proclaimed all thise time , is wrong :P
    You should have listened to be and not use defensive traiits :P

    Oh no, its still correct. That build is still unplayable. And you know why I didnt listen to you? You are wrong about everything. I dont listen to wrong things.

    What is correct ?
    You add up to the Mesmers The Mirror Blade +Mind stab + other 0,5 sec cast time spells to their Burst .

    I dont add Mind Stab. Or any cast time spells other than mirror blade, which gets pre-cast in stealth. I only add together damage that all happens in an instant. Since, you know, thats the point.

    And just happen to forget that auto attacks can help add up the to the damage ?

    Autoattacks arent part of the instant burst. If I wanted to add those, I would stuff like Mind Stab to Mesmer. But then the damage gap gets even bigger in Mesmers favour.

    You are not correct . You where never :P THta why we argue about ''Myopia'' :P

    You really love that word. You heard it once ,thought it sounded smart, and tried to use it as much as possible, even when it makes no sense to use it. Im sorry to say, but it doesnt sound smart. It just makes you look like a fool.

    a)If they precasted Mind stab +Mirror blade , then you know where the mesmers is , why you whined about Mesmers doing ''cannot'' dodge dmage in the Mesmers thread ?

    Out of combat stealth.

    b) auto attacka are part of the rotation . Mind stab has a cd .

    Doesnt matter, you dont burst every second.

    1) You can avoid those 2 spells out of combat . Both are 0.5 sec cst time . They cannot use for the Burst stealth for istant undodgable damage , that you said in the past

    You cant avoid them if you dont know the Mesmer is there. Say, for example if they used out of combat stealth.

    2) Wott ? If you avoid those 2x 0,5 cast spells , you halved the damage of the Mesmer , So its burst lies at 9k also :P

    Which you cant. Its burst is much higher.

    3) Thief cant burst :P

    It indeed cant reasonably burst. But you and your grade-school level lies are getting tiresome.

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 25, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    https://imgur.com/gallery/dzJncPB
    this is the test I got.
    Thing to note.
    1 I forgot to mug, and due to that I missed many dmg modifiers.
    stealing inflicts -> poison,weakness, potentially confusion. that is 4-6% dmg from exposed weakness 6-8% with even the odds, should have taken it insead of revealed I think.
    3-4% dmg from compounding sigil
    3 might from thrill of crime
    I would also gain fury,might,swiftness,vigor that gives extra 2% dmg from enhancement sigil.
    Target above 50% so no executioner
    I also think i wasnt incombat so no lead attacks -> unsure of that one.

    Well, I did expect a max damage build. Those arent really playable, you see what happened to Vallun when he tried a (slightly less max damage) version. Anyway, even with those modifiers added (rough math here), that shouldnt add any more than around 8% damage. Thats around 8k damage total. Even with a max damage build, thats only just above a third of the golems hp. Its also less than a single grenade barrage.

    Until you do the Barrage (0.5 sec cast time) , he can do 4 auto attacks for an extra 3000 damage(istant-istant--0,25-istant) , which scales with those modifiers > so they become 12k burst on Heavy targets .combined on the backstab
    Which he can repeat it with every stealth , but you have 1x Grenade Barrgage :P

    So you where wrong about thief burst :P

    Ive never seen someone so undeterred by their lack of knowledge about thief. The Dagger autoattacks are much, much slower than that. The whole sequence is 1.68 seconds. So you cant include it. Sorry. Wrong as always.

    They dont have internal global cd global cd (wait 0.25) before they can do the other attack :P
    Before the culling ( you go in stealth 0,15 after the execute the stealth combo > and you are releaved 0,15 after) you are already in the second ayto attack

    Global ... cooldown? This is GW2, not WoW. There is no global cooldown. And the rest is just your typical rambling nonsense, so I will ignore it.

    So thief cannot burst , that you proclaimed all thise time , is wrong :P
    You should have listened to be and not use defensive traiits :P

    Oh no, its still correct. That build is still unplayable. And you know why I didnt listen to you? You are wrong about everything. I dont listen to wrong things.

    What is correct ?
    You add up to the Mesmers The Mirror Blade +Mind stab + other 0,5 sec cast time spells to their Burst .

    I dont add Mind Stab. Or any cast time spells other than mirror blade, which gets pre-cast in stealth. I only add together damage that all happens in an instant. Since, you know, thats the point.

    And just happen to forget that auto attacks can help add up the to the damage ?

    Autoattacks arent part of the instant burst. If I wanted to add those, I would stuff like Mind Stab to Mesmer. But then the damage gap gets even bigger in Mesmers favour.

    You are not correct . You where never :P THta why we argue about ''Myopia'' :P

    You really love that word. You heard it once ,thought it sounded smart, and tried to use it as much as possible, even when it makes no sense to use it. Im sorry to say, but it doesnt sound smart. It just makes you look like a fool.

    a)If they precasted Mind stab +Mirror blade , then you know where the mesmers is , why you whined about Mesmers doing ''cannot'' dodge dmage in the Mesmers thread ?

    Out of combat stealth.

    b) auto attacka are part of the rotation . Mind stab has a cd .

    Doesnt matter, you dont burst every second.

    1) You can avoid those 2 spells out of combat . Both are 0.5 sec cst time . They cannot use for the Burst stealth for istant undodgable damage , that you said in the past

    You cant avoid them if you dont know the Mesmer is there. Say, for example if they used out of combat stealth.

    2) Wott ? If you avoid those 2x 0,5 cast spells , you halved the damage of the Mesmer , So its burst lies at 9k also :P

    Which you cant. Its burst is much higher.

    3) Thief cant burst :P

    It indeed cant reasonably burst. But you and your grade-school level lies are getting tiresome.

    1) Mesmers have 3 sec stealth . Whch both have high cd . We talked about it
    2) Its more avoidable . 2 spells are 0.5 cast time . Avoiding those halves their damage
    Its like Death's Judgment 0,5 sec cast
    3)t indeed can reasonably burst. But you and your grade-school level lies are getting tiresome
    I WILL GO TO UNERVISITY THISE YEAR YOU KNOW ! YOU DONT HAVE TO PICK ME FOR MY grade-school STUFF !
    4) After the Backstab and the enemy is Feared for 1sec , why wouldnt anyone use auto attack to boost their dps on a cc-ed target !

    Mr/Ms Ncsoft, the West is weakened leaving space for new games(asian too). I know the ManaWo..ggs
    used the RnD Labs as testing ground,but can you let them be alone and not DMCA their video?
    Sincerely humble Butler, willigly letting his body to be exploited , or find another master -crystal ball

  • darren.1064darren.1064 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    damage + mobility + no counterplay = bad time.
    in conquest every second counts, it doesnt matter that rev can deal more damage while they +1 if thief arrives 5s earlier and wins the fight on the sides already, most classes when pulled off get to be pulled off for a while and wont be able to fight back and have to wait to recover CD/health. sometimes shall push is all it takes.
    Now you gotta find those small pushes instead of traversing the map at the speed of light and booping bruisers for 60% hp from stealth.
    As it was said before, when holo/ranger/necro/rev and other bustaaad specs get some shaves thief will be fine, if you want to have different role learn different class.
    You dont see druids complaining they cant roam, necros that they cant stealth, its not their role.

    I'm really honored that you took the time out of your day to find the energy to comment on my post, but you haven't really contributed anything that I haven't already debunked already. Currently your +1 example doesn't even make sense because once again: "Thief doesn't do damage anymore."

    no, bad thiefs dont do damage anymore, the ones that took time to learn their class can still contribute

    I've gone top 100 multiple times and once again, i've been playing for years. Idk how many games I have but its in the thousands. I probably have more games on thief than you do overall. So please don't tell me that I'm a bad thief when I've put in years of learning to perfect the profession. I know every skill, trait, utility and elite. I kill streamers, I play in plat. This isn't a problem of bad thieves, this is a problem of all thieves. However, if other classes are allowed to be bad and still do damage: ranger, necro, guardian. Then why aren't thieves able to currently scavenge together a build? The entire thief thread is full of thieves asking if there's a single viable build to even play anymore. I doubt any other class currently has that problem. The answer to their question is no, thief has no viable build to play right now because people like you just complain that thief is still OP when it can't even do anything. So I would highly recommend that you do some introspection to become a better player and ask yourself what you can do better to kill thieves, and if you're feeling like you're still having trouble with thieves right now then oh buddy. I can promise you its not the thieves that are the problem but you yourself.

    there are people that played league longer then you played any game since you were born yet they are incapable of pushing past silver, time makes you play better only if you are capable of learning.
    as I said before, nerf broken bunker kitten and thief will be fine, what you lack right now is 2shoting people for free with no counterplay, too bad

    Ur not wrong it is the the majority of classes being far to bunker post patch that is making thief feel as week as it does but that also makes the thief players quarry of feeling their bursts are to weak legitimate. Whether its thief's burst was hit to hard,sustain is to low or if it's a bit of both the results are the same regarding thief players issue. This is anet were talking about right? What if they don't go the route of shaving the sustain on these classes but go a different route than thief's bursts would need looked at regardless.

    no, it wouldnt. its hard to believe but there are builds out there that are not made of 50k+ hp and perma protection.
    I do play wizard mirage from time to time and let me tell you thief can still put some real hurt into me, if you buff thief so it can pressure those 50k hp necros or 20k HP perma prot knights holos then my poor mirage will be obliterated with no tell, no counterplay and no ability to fight back. Do you think others can hurt those classes? do you think I can on mesmer? I go full glass with illusion+dueling+mirage on wizard amulet ( its like maruders ), even if I land 80% of their skills they fully sustain through that.
    I will have less sustain then thief, less dodges, less mobility but I cant hurt them regardless. As it stands you sick OP holo against another OP holo and call it a day, and I dont think there is a single roaming spec that will actually down competent holo, only chase them off the node. Maybe full glass ranger could do it? im unsure.

    The problem is that thief struggles to not just kill the full bunker builds, but even regular ones. You wont be obliterated without counterplay. The only part that has no counterplay is backstab (which is a problem, but I digress). That backstab will not hit you harder than, at the very most, 6k. Usually closer 4-5k. Your Wizard Mesmer has, what, over 20k hp? Thats less than a fourth of your health, and thats the majority of thieves damage, it just tapers off hard from there. So thief should be less than a gnat even to you.

    that would be true if thief just backstabed and thats it, there is backstab, mug, hearthseeker, followup autos before bugged model registers, venoms etc etc.
    and this is from the stuff that doesnt allow me to fight back, 1/3-1/2 is EASY taken from me insta from stealth, if not from stealth and hearth->mug->stab its usually over half HP but it is somewhat telegraphed.

    Mug does very little damage now. But sure, lets add that. Venoms and Siphoning are included in the damage as is. Heartseeker however? No. We said exclusively about things that have no counterplay. Heartseeker is a 0.75 second cast time skill. You absolutely can avoid the damage. Thats not "instant". And autos after that are even slower. So, doesnt really change anything. You still take about a quarter of your health at most before you can react.

    So no, just the stuff that doesnt allow you to fight back is backstab and its modifiers. Its a quarter of your health, or less, instant from stealth. Not 1/3, and certainly not even close to 1/2. And no, even heartseeker into mug into stab is not even close to 1/2 hp.

    actually, skilled thief could time destealth with smoke field to leave stealth mid Heartseeker jump, so that it restealths instantly.
    that way HS is covered in stealth, at the end of its cast it leaves stealth -> mug->HS connects-> it stealths you ->backstab->1-2 basics before anyone can react.
    but that would take learning the timing, who needs that

    EDIT
    tested to make sure it works, it works 100% of the time I get the timing right.
    with assassins signet ( not activated to make it easy to do )
    scholar rune
    berserker amulet
    daredevil -> so still 13,3-13,5k HP
    I can take about 45%-50% from tough golem HP with HS+Backstab only.
    Extra dmg with followup autos or when used with signet the dmg would be bigger.
    sure hope I didnt just create new cancer lol

    I'm not gonna say anything crude. I'm just going to say that you obviously know what attack chain is coming because the thief has to approach you out of stealth and you don't dodge to avoid the damage? that sounds like a you problem from poor gameplay buddy

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Project exa.3204 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    You're right, thief is so weak that 3/4 of the top 4 teams last mAT ran them, and I don't think this mAT will be any different.

    Yeah, and that's cool and all. Top 3/4 teams of mAT will always be in the top 3/4 teams. If Anet only cares about the top 1% of players that type of mentality is 100% ok.
    Not talking about the top 1% of players, because no matter what they're going to make classes work. Talking about the 99% of players who jump into thief thinking it's going to be fun, and end up getting rekt because the learning curve is so steep or because they are expected to have a singular purpose & don't understand fully how to play it.

    Do you disagree? You think that top 3/4 teams of mAT discredit the fact that thiefs (in general)--especially in solo or duo queue ranked where the majority of players play, makes the discussion points somehow NOT an issue? I don't.
    -Eros of Ascalon

    Thief is already a must have (pretty much) in high tier games. If you buff it for the mediocre people, it will just steamroll everything in high tier. We don't want a repeat of pre patch meta with double SA one shots.

    Its not. Actually quite the opposite, the high tier is dropping thief since its simply ineffective in the current meta. We also didnt have thief one-shots (far too low of a damage) or double thieves (2 thieves is a lot worse than one and usually ensures that you lose).

    This is true. Thief is still used and decent, but it’s like that state in HoT(if I remember the timeline accurately) where it’s good but is falling short of competition level. Ppl will think of reasons to run thief, but no it’s not even close to a must have.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    damage + mobility + no counterplay = bad time.
    in conquest every second counts, it doesnt matter that rev can deal more damage while they +1 if thief arrives 5s earlier and wins the fight on the sides already, most classes when pulled off get to be pulled off for a while and wont be able to fight back and have to wait to recover CD/health. sometimes shall push is all it takes.
    Now you gotta find those small pushes instead of traversing the map at the speed of light and booping bruisers for 60% hp from stealth.
    As it was said before, when holo/ranger/necro/rev and other bustaaad specs get some shaves thief will be fine, if you want to have different role learn different class.
    You dont see druids complaining they cant roam, necros that they cant stealth, its not their role.

    I'm really honored that you took the time out of your day to find the energy to comment on my post, but you haven't really contributed anything that I haven't already debunked already. Currently your +1 example doesn't even make sense because once again: "Thief doesn't do damage anymore."

    no, bad thiefs dont do damage anymore, the ones that took time to learn their class can still contribute

    I've gone top 100 multiple times and once again, i've been playing for years. Idk how many games I have but its in the thousands. I probably have more games on thief than you do overall. So please don't tell me that I'm a bad thief when I've put in years of learning to perfect the profession. I know every skill, trait, utility and elite. I kill streamers, I play in plat. This isn't a problem of bad thieves, this is a problem of all thieves. However, if other classes are allowed to be bad and still do damage: ranger, necro, guardian. Then why aren't thieves able to currently scavenge together a build? The entire thief thread is full of thieves asking if there's a single viable build to even play anymore. I doubt any other class currently has that problem. The answer to their question is no, thief has no viable build to play right now because people like you just complain that thief is still OP when it can't even do anything. So I would highly recommend that you do some introspection to become a better player and ask yourself what you can do better to kill thieves, and if you're feeling like you're still having trouble with thieves right now then oh buddy. I can promise you its not the thieves that are the problem but you yourself.

    there are people that played league longer then you played any game since you were born yet they are incapable of pushing past silver, time makes you play better only if you are capable of learning.
    as I said before, nerf broken bunker kitten and thief will be fine, what you lack right now is 2shoting people for free with no counterplay, too bad

    Ur not wrong it is the the majority of classes being far to bunker post patch that is making thief feel as week as it does but that also makes the thief players quarry of feeling their bursts are to weak legitimate. Whether its thief's burst was hit to hard,sustain is to low or if it's a bit of both the results are the same regarding thief players issue. This is anet were talking about right? What if they don't go the route of shaving the sustain on these classes but go a different route than thief's bursts would need looked at regardless.

    no, it wouldnt. its hard to believe but there are builds out there that are not made of 50k+ hp and perma protection.
    I do play wizard mirage from time to time and let me tell you thief can still put some real hurt into me, if you buff thief so it can pressure those 50k hp necros or 20k HP perma prot knights holos then my poor mirage will be obliterated with no tell, no counterplay and no ability to fight back. Do you think others can hurt those classes? do you think I can on mesmer? I go full glass with illusion+dueling+mirage on wizard amulet ( its like maruders ), even if I land 80% of their skills they fully sustain through that.
    I will have less sustain then thief, less dodges, less mobility but I cant hurt them regardless. As it stands you sick OP holo against another OP holo and call it a day, and I dont think there is a single roaming spec that will actually down competent holo, only chase them off the node. Maybe full glass ranger could do it? im unsure.

    The problem is that thief struggles to not just kill the full bunker builds, but even regular ones. You wont be obliterated without counterplay. The only part that has no counterplay is backstab (which is a problem, but I digress). That backstab will not hit you harder than, at the very most, 6k. Usually closer 4-5k. Your Wizard Mesmer has, what, over 20k hp? Thats less than a fourth of your health, and thats the majority of thieves damage, it just tapers off hard from there. So thief should be less than a gnat even to you.

    that would be true if thief just backstabed and thats it, there is backstab, mug, hearthseeker, followup autos before bugged model registers, venoms etc etc.
    and this is from the stuff that doesnt allow me to fight back, 1/3-1/2 is EASY taken from me insta from stealth, if not from stealth and hearth->mug->stab its usually over half HP but it is somewhat telegraphed.

    Mug does very little damage now. But sure, lets add that. Venoms and Siphoning are included in the damage as is. Heartseeker however? No. We said exclusively about things that have no counterplay. Heartseeker is a 0.75 second cast time skill. You absolutely can avoid the damage. Thats not "instant". And autos after that are even slower. So, doesnt really change anything. You still take about a quarter of your health at most before you can react.

    So no, just the stuff that doesnt allow you to fight back is backstab and its modifiers. Its a quarter of your health, or less, instant from stealth. Not 1/3, and certainly not even close to 1/2. And no, even heartseeker into mug into stab is not even close to 1/2 hp.

    actually, skilled thief could time destealth with smoke field to leave stealth mid Heartseeker jump, so that it restealths instantly.
    that way HS is covered in stealth, at the end of its cast it leaves stealth -> mug->HS connects-> it stealths you ->backstab->1-2 basics before anyone can react.
    but that would take learning the timing, who needs that

    EDIT
    tested to make sure it works, it works 100% of the time I get the timing right.
    with assassins signet ( not activated to make it easy to do )
    scholar rune
    berserker amulet
    daredevil -> so still 13,3-13,5k HP
    I can take about 45%-50% from tough golem HP with HS+Backstab only.
    Extra dmg with followup autos or when used with signet the dmg would be bigger.
    sure hope I didnt just create new cancer lol

    I'm not gonna say anything crude. I'm just going to say that you obviously know what attack chain is coming because the thief has to approach you out of stealth and you don't dodge to avoid the damage? that sounds like a you problem from poor gameplay buddy

    following your logic when thief uses basic ability to stealth for 3s or 12s I should constantly keep dodgin?
    I dont think me and my 1 dodge can handle it friend

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    https://imgur.com/gallery/dzJncPB
    this is the test I got.
    Thing to note.
    1 I forgot to mug, and due to that I missed many dmg modifiers.
    stealing inflicts -> poison,weakness, potentially confusion. that is 4-6% dmg from exposed weakness 6-8% with even the odds, should have taken it insead of revealed I think.
    3-4% dmg from compounding sigil
    3 might from thrill of crime
    I would also gain fury,might,swiftness,vigor that gives extra 2% dmg from enhancement sigil.
    Target above 50% so no executioner
    I also think i wasnt incombat so no lead attacks -> unsure of that one.

    Well, I did expect a max damage build. Those arent really playable, you see what happened to Vallun when he tried a (slightly less max damage) version. Anyway, even with those modifiers added (rough math here), that shouldnt add any more than around 8% damage. Thats around 8k damage total. Even with a max damage build, thats only just above a third of the golems hp. Its also less than a single grenade barrage.

    Until you do the Barrage (0.5 sec cast time) , he can do 4 auto attacks for an extra 3000 damage(istant-istant--0,25-istant) , which scales with those modifiers > so they become 12k burst on Heavy targets .combined on the backstab
    Which he can repeat it with every stealth , but you have 1x Grenade Barrgage :P

    So you where wrong about thief burst :P

    Ive never seen someone so undeterred by their lack of knowledge about thief. The Dagger autoattacks are much, much slower than that. The whole sequence is 1.68 seconds. So you cant include it. Sorry. Wrong as always.

    They dont have internal global cd global cd (wait 0.25) before they can do the other attack :P
    Before the culling ( you go in stealth 0,15 after the execute the stealth combo > and you are releaved 0,15 after) you are already in the second ayto attack

    Global ... cooldown? This is GW2, not WoW. There is no global cooldown. And the rest is just your typical rambling nonsense, so I will ignore it.

    So thief cannot burst , that you proclaimed all thise time , is wrong :P
    You should have listened to be and not use defensive traiits :P

    Oh no, its still correct. That build is still unplayable. And you know why I didnt listen to you? You are wrong about everything. I dont listen to wrong things.

    What is correct ?
    You add up to the Mesmers The Mirror Blade +Mind stab + other 0,5 sec cast time spells to their Burst .

    I dont add Mind Stab. Or any cast time spells other than mirror blade, which gets pre-cast in stealth. I only add together damage that all happens in an instant. Since, you know, thats the point.

    And just happen to forget that auto attacks can help add up the to the damage ?

    Autoattacks arent part of the instant burst. If I wanted to add those, I would stuff like Mind Stab to Mesmer. But then the damage gap gets even bigger in Mesmers favour.

    You are not correct . You where never :P THta why we argue about ''Myopia'' :P

    You really love that word. You heard it once ,thought it sounded smart, and tried to use it as much as possible, even when it makes no sense to use it. Im sorry to say, but it doesnt sound smart. It just makes you look like a fool.

    a)If they precasted Mind stab +Mirror blade , then you know where the mesmers is , why you whined about Mesmers doing ''cannot'' dodge dmage in the Mesmers thread ?

    Out of combat stealth.

    b) auto attacka are part of the rotation . Mind stab has a cd .

    Doesnt matter, you dont burst every second.

    1) You can avoid those 2 spells out of combat . Both are 0.5 sec cst time . They cannot use for the Burst stealth for istant undodgable damage , that you said in the past

    You cant avoid them if you dont know the Mesmer is there. Say, for example if they used out of combat stealth.

    2) Wott ? If you avoid those 2x 0,5 cast spells , you halved the damage of the Mesmer , So its burst lies at 9k also :P

    Which you cant. Its burst is much higher.

    3) Thief cant burst :P

    It indeed cant reasonably burst. But you and your grade-school level lies are getting tiresome.

    1) Mesmers have 3 sec stealth . Whch both have high cd . We talked about it

    Which doesnt matter since you dont burst that often. We indeed talked about it. You refused to learn anything, as you always do.

    2) Its more avoidable . 2 spells are 0.5 cast time . Avoiding those halves their damage
    Its like Death's Judgment 0,5 sec cast

    Death's Judgment is super telegraphed. Mirror Blade from stealth is not telegraphed at all. One can be easily avoided. The other cant be avoided at all.

    3)t indeed can reasonably burst. But you and your grade-school level lies are getting tiresome
    I WILL GO TO UNERVISITY THISE YEAR YOU KNOW ! YOU DONT HAVE TO PICK ME FOR MY grade-school STUFF !

    I predict you will have trouble given your tendency to not learn anything.

    4) After the Backstab and the enemy is Feared for 1sec , why wouldnt anyone use auto attack to boost their dps on a cc-ed target !

    Stunbreak/condi cleanse. The enemy is no longer feared. Besides, were talking instant damage here. If you want to include more, I could slap on damage on the Mesmer as well. It just goes further into the Mesmers favour.

  • darren.1064darren.1064 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    damage + mobility + no counterplay = bad time.
    in conquest every second counts, it doesnt matter that rev can deal more damage while they +1 if thief arrives 5s earlier and wins the fight on the sides already, most classes when pulled off get to be pulled off for a while and wont be able to fight back and have to wait to recover CD/health. sometimes shall push is all it takes.
    Now you gotta find those small pushes instead of traversing the map at the speed of light and booping bruisers for 60% hp from stealth.
    As it was said before, when holo/ranger/necro/rev and other bustaaad specs get some shaves thief will be fine, if you want to have different role learn different class.
    You dont see druids complaining they cant roam, necros that they cant stealth, its not their role.

    I'm really honored that you took the time out of your day to find the energy to comment on my post, but you haven't really contributed anything that I haven't already debunked already. Currently your +1 example doesn't even make sense because once again: "Thief doesn't do damage anymore."

    no, bad thiefs dont do damage anymore, the ones that took time to learn their class can still contribute

    I've gone top 100 multiple times and once again, i've been playing for years. Idk how many games I have but its in the thousands. I probably have more games on thief than you do overall. So please don't tell me that I'm a bad thief when I've put in years of learning to perfect the profession. I know every skill, trait, utility and elite. I kill streamers, I play in plat. This isn't a problem of bad thieves, this is a problem of all thieves. However, if other classes are allowed to be bad and still do damage: ranger, necro, guardian. Then why aren't thieves able to currently scavenge together a build? The entire thief thread is full of thieves asking if there's a single viable build to even play anymore. I doubt any other class currently has that problem. The answer to their question is no, thief has no viable build to play right now because people like you just complain that thief is still OP when it can't even do anything. So I would highly recommend that you do some introspection to become a better player and ask yourself what you can do better to kill thieves, and if you're feeling like you're still having trouble with thieves right now then oh buddy. I can promise you its not the thieves that are the problem but you yourself.

    there are people that played league longer then you played any game since you were born yet they are incapable of pushing past silver, time makes you play better only if you are capable of learning.
    as I said before, nerf broken bunker kitten and thief will be fine, what you lack right now is 2shoting people for free with no counterplay, too bad

    Ur not wrong it is the the majority of classes being far to bunker post patch that is making thief feel as week as it does but that also makes the thief players quarry of feeling their bursts are to weak legitimate. Whether its thief's burst was hit to hard,sustain is to low or if it's a bit of both the results are the same regarding thief players issue. This is anet were talking about right? What if they don't go the route of shaving the sustain on these classes but go a different route than thief's bursts would need looked at regardless.

    no, it wouldnt. its hard to believe but there are builds out there that are not made of 50k+ hp and perma protection.
    I do play wizard mirage from time to time and let me tell you thief can still put some real hurt into me, if you buff thief so it can pressure those 50k hp necros or 20k HP perma prot knights holos then my poor mirage will be obliterated with no tell, no counterplay and no ability to fight back. Do you think others can hurt those classes? do you think I can on mesmer? I go full glass with illusion+dueling+mirage on wizard amulet ( its like maruders ), even if I land 80% of their skills they fully sustain through that.
    I will have less sustain then thief, less dodges, less mobility but I cant hurt them regardless. As it stands you sick OP holo against another OP holo and call it a day, and I dont think there is a single roaming spec that will actually down competent holo, only chase them off the node. Maybe full glass ranger could do it? im unsure.

    The problem is that thief struggles to not just kill the full bunker builds, but even regular ones. You wont be obliterated without counterplay. The only part that has no counterplay is backstab (which is a problem, but I digress). That backstab will not hit you harder than, at the very most, 6k. Usually closer 4-5k. Your Wizard Mesmer has, what, over 20k hp? Thats less than a fourth of your health, and thats the majority of thieves damage, it just tapers off hard from there. So thief should be less than a gnat even to you.

    that would be true if thief just backstabed and thats it, there is backstab, mug, hearthseeker, followup autos before bugged model registers, venoms etc etc.
    and this is from the stuff that doesnt allow me to fight back, 1/3-1/2 is EASY taken from me insta from stealth, if not from stealth and hearth->mug->stab its usually over half HP but it is somewhat telegraphed.

    Mug does very little damage now. But sure, lets add that. Venoms and Siphoning are included in the damage as is. Heartseeker however? No. We said exclusively about things that have no counterplay. Heartseeker is a 0.75 second cast time skill. You absolutely can avoid the damage. Thats not "instant". And autos after that are even slower. So, doesnt really change anything. You still take about a quarter of your health at most before you can react.

    So no, just the stuff that doesnt allow you to fight back is backstab and its modifiers. Its a quarter of your health, or less, instant from stealth. Not 1/3, and certainly not even close to 1/2. And no, even heartseeker into mug into stab is not even close to 1/2 hp.

    actually, skilled thief could time destealth with smoke field to leave stealth mid Heartseeker jump, so that it restealths instantly.
    that way HS is covered in stealth, at the end of its cast it leaves stealth -> mug->HS connects-> it stealths you ->backstab->1-2 basics before anyone can react.
    but that would take learning the timing, who needs that

    EDIT
    tested to make sure it works, it works 100% of the time I get the timing right.
    with assassins signet ( not activated to make it easy to do )
    scholar rune
    berserker amulet
    daredevil -> so still 13,3-13,5k HP
    I can take about 45%-50% from tough golem HP with HS+Backstab only.
    Extra dmg with followup autos or when used with signet the dmg would be bigger.
    sure hope I didnt just create new cancer lol

    I'm not gonna say anything crude. I'm just going to say that you obviously know what attack chain is coming because the thief has to approach you out of stealth and you don't dodge to avoid the damage? that sounds like a you problem from poor gameplay buddy

    following your logic when thief uses basic ability to stealth for 3s or 12s I should constantly keep dodgin?
    I dont think me and my 1 dodge can handle it friend

    No you should figure out how to play better. If you dodge the chain and the thief uses his steal, then he can't use it for about 20 seconds. Within those 20 seconds, use a block or be prepared to fight. Simple. Fighting a thief isn't rocket science, you guys just have a low skill level.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    damage + mobility + no counterplay = bad time.
    in conquest every second counts, it doesnt matter that rev can deal more damage while they +1 if thief arrives 5s earlier and wins the fight on the sides already, most classes when pulled off get to be pulled off for a while and wont be able to fight back and have to wait to recover CD/health. sometimes shall push is all it takes.
    Now you gotta find those small pushes instead of traversing the map at the speed of light and booping bruisers for 60% hp from stealth.
    As it was said before, when holo/ranger/necro/rev and other bustaaad specs get some shaves thief will be fine, if you want to have different role learn different class.
    You dont see druids complaining they cant roam, necros that they cant stealth, its not their role.

    I'm really honored that you took the time out of your day to find the energy to comment on my post, but you haven't really contributed anything that I haven't already debunked already. Currently your +1 example doesn't even make sense because once again: "Thief doesn't do damage anymore."

    no, bad thiefs dont do damage anymore, the ones that took time to learn their class can still contribute

    I've gone top 100 multiple times and once again, i've been playing for years. Idk how many games I have but its in the thousands. I probably have more games on thief than you do overall. So please don't tell me that I'm a bad thief when I've put in years of learning to perfect the profession. I know every skill, trait, utility and elite. I kill streamers, I play in plat. This isn't a problem of bad thieves, this is a problem of all thieves. However, if other classes are allowed to be bad and still do damage: ranger, necro, guardian. Then why aren't thieves able to currently scavenge together a build? The entire thief thread is full of thieves asking if there's a single viable build to even play anymore. I doubt any other class currently has that problem. The answer to their question is no, thief has no viable build to play right now because people like you just complain that thief is still OP when it can't even do anything. So I would highly recommend that you do some introspection to become a better player and ask yourself what you can do better to kill thieves, and if you're feeling like you're still having trouble with thieves right now then oh buddy. I can promise you its not the thieves that are the problem but you yourself.

    there are people that played league longer then you played any game since you were born yet they are incapable of pushing past silver, time makes you play better only if you are capable of learning.
    as I said before, nerf broken bunker kitten and thief will be fine, what you lack right now is 2shoting people for free with no counterplay, too bad

    Ur not wrong it is the the majority of classes being far to bunker post patch that is making thief feel as week as it does but that also makes the thief players quarry of feeling their bursts are to weak legitimate. Whether its thief's burst was hit to hard,sustain is to low or if it's a bit of both the results are the same regarding thief players issue. This is anet were talking about right? What if they don't go the route of shaving the sustain on these classes but go a different route than thief's bursts would need looked at regardless.

    no, it wouldnt. its hard to believe but there are builds out there that are not made of 50k+ hp and perma protection.
    I do play wizard mirage from time to time and let me tell you thief can still put some real hurt into me, if you buff thief so it can pressure those 50k hp necros or 20k HP perma prot knights holos then my poor mirage will be obliterated with no tell, no counterplay and no ability to fight back. Do you think others can hurt those classes? do you think I can on mesmer? I go full glass with illusion+dueling+mirage on wizard amulet ( its like maruders ), even if I land 80% of their skills they fully sustain through that.
    I will have less sustain then thief, less dodges, less mobility but I cant hurt them regardless. As it stands you sick OP holo against another OP holo and call it a day, and I dont think there is a single roaming spec that will actually down competent holo, only chase them off the node. Maybe full glass ranger could do it? im unsure.

    The problem is that thief struggles to not just kill the full bunker builds, but even regular ones. You wont be obliterated without counterplay. The only part that has no counterplay is backstab (which is a problem, but I digress). That backstab will not hit you harder than, at the very most, 6k. Usually closer 4-5k. Your Wizard Mesmer has, what, over 20k hp? Thats less than a fourth of your health, and thats the majority of thieves damage, it just tapers off hard from there. So thief should be less than a gnat even to you.

    that would be true if thief just backstabed and thats it, there is backstab, mug, hearthseeker, followup autos before bugged model registers, venoms etc etc.
    and this is from the stuff that doesnt allow me to fight back, 1/3-1/2 is EASY taken from me insta from stealth, if not from stealth and hearth->mug->stab its usually over half HP but it is somewhat telegraphed.

    Mug does very little damage now. But sure, lets add that. Venoms and Siphoning are included in the damage as is. Heartseeker however? No. We said exclusively about things that have no counterplay. Heartseeker is a 0.75 second cast time skill. You absolutely can avoid the damage. Thats not "instant". And autos after that are even slower. So, doesnt really change anything. You still take about a quarter of your health at most before you can react.

    So no, just the stuff that doesnt allow you to fight back is backstab and its modifiers. Its a quarter of your health, or less, instant from stealth. Not 1/3, and certainly not even close to 1/2. And no, even heartseeker into mug into stab is not even close to 1/2 hp.

    actually, skilled thief could time destealth with smoke field to leave stealth mid Heartseeker jump, so that it restealths instantly.
    that way HS is covered in stealth, at the end of its cast it leaves stealth -> mug->HS connects-> it stealths you ->backstab->1-2 basics before anyone can react.
    but that would take learning the timing, who needs that

    EDIT
    tested to make sure it works, it works 100% of the time I get the timing right.
    with assassins signet ( not activated to make it easy to do )
    scholar rune
    berserker amulet
    daredevil -> so still 13,3-13,5k HP
    I can take about 45%-50% from tough golem HP with HS+Backstab only.
    Extra dmg with followup autos or when used with signet the dmg would be bigger.
    sure hope I didnt just create new cancer lol

    I'm not gonna say anything crude. I'm just going to say that you obviously know what attack chain is coming because the thief has to approach you out of stealth and you don't dodge to avoid the damage? that sounds like a you problem from poor gameplay buddy

    following your logic when thief uses basic ability to stealth for 3s or 12s I should constantly keep dodgin?
    I dont think me and my 1 dodge can handle it friend

    No you should figure out how to play better. If you dodge the chain and the thief uses his steal, then he can't use it for about 20 seconds. Within those 20 seconds, use a block or be prepared to fight. Simple. Fighting a thief isn't rocket science, you guys just have a low skill level.

    someone is overly upset their hypermobile burst no counterplay unkillabe permastealth builds aint op no more :/

    I mean, the sPvP version wasnt Permastealth. It also wasnt "unkillable" unless you mean "Always runs away before someone can damage them" by that. Counterplay was on the lower end, but the damage was low to compensate (not as low as now, but low nonetheless). The build was not really op, it was the same thief had been since pre-HoT with a couple pauses in HoT. A build carried by Shortbow 5.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    damage + mobility + no counterplay = bad time.
    in conquest every second counts, it doesnt matter that rev can deal more damage while they +1 if thief arrives 5s earlier and wins the fight on the sides already, most classes when pulled off get to be pulled off for a while and wont be able to fight back and have to wait to recover CD/health. sometimes shall push is all it takes.
    Now you gotta find those small pushes instead of traversing the map at the speed of light and booping bruisers for 60% hp from stealth.
    As it was said before, when holo/ranger/necro/rev and other bustaaad specs get some shaves thief will be fine, if you want to have different role learn different class.
    You dont see druids complaining they cant roam, necros that they cant stealth, its not their role.

    I'm really honored that you took the time out of your day to find the energy to comment on my post, but you haven't really contributed anything that I haven't already debunked already. Currently your +1 example doesn't even make sense because once again: "Thief doesn't do damage anymore."

    no, bad thiefs dont do damage anymore, the ones that took time to learn their class can still contribute

    I've gone top 100 multiple times and once again, i've been playing for years. Idk how many games I have but its in the thousands. I probably have more games on thief than you do overall. So please don't tell me that I'm a bad thief when I've put in years of learning to perfect the profession. I know every skill, trait, utility and elite. I kill streamers, I play in plat. This isn't a problem of bad thieves, this is a problem of all thieves. However, if other classes are allowed to be bad and still do damage: ranger, necro, guardian. Then why aren't thieves able to currently scavenge together a build? The entire thief thread is full of thieves asking if there's a single viable build to even play anymore. I doubt any other class currently has that problem. The answer to their question is no, thief has no viable build to play right now because people like you just complain that thief is still OP when it can't even do anything. So I would highly recommend that you do some introspection to become a better player and ask yourself what you can do better to kill thieves, and if you're feeling like you're still having trouble with thieves right now then oh buddy. I can promise you its not the thieves that are the problem but you yourself.

    there are people that played league longer then you played any game since you were born yet they are incapable of pushing past silver, time makes you play better only if you are capable of learning.
    as I said before, nerf broken bunker kitten and thief will be fine, what you lack right now is 2shoting people for free with no counterplay, too bad

    Ur not wrong it is the the majority of classes being far to bunker post patch that is making thief feel as week as it does but that also makes the thief players quarry of feeling their bursts are to weak legitimate. Whether its thief's burst was hit to hard,sustain is to low or if it's a bit of both the results are the same regarding thief players issue. This is anet were talking about right? What if they don't go the route of shaving the sustain on these classes but go a different route than thief's bursts would need looked at regardless.

    no, it wouldnt. its hard to believe but there are builds out there that are not made of 50k+ hp and perma protection.
    I do play wizard mirage from time to time and let me tell you thief can still put some real hurt into me, if you buff thief so it can pressure those 50k hp necros or 20k HP perma prot knights holos then my poor mirage will be obliterated with no tell, no counterplay and no ability to fight back. Do you think others can hurt those classes? do you think I can on mesmer? I go full glass with illusion+dueling+mirage on wizard amulet ( its like maruders ), even if I land 80% of their skills they fully sustain through that.
    I will have less sustain then thief, less dodges, less mobility but I cant hurt them regardless. As it stands you sick OP holo against another OP holo and call it a day, and I dont think there is a single roaming spec that will actually down competent holo, only chase them off the node. Maybe full glass ranger could do it? im unsure.

    The problem is that thief struggles to not just kill the full bunker builds, but even regular ones. You wont be obliterated without counterplay. The only part that has no counterplay is backstab (which is a problem, but I digress). That backstab will not hit you harder than, at the very most, 6k. Usually closer 4-5k. Your Wizard Mesmer has, what, over 20k hp? Thats less than a fourth of your health, and thats the majority of thieves damage, it just tapers off hard from there. So thief should be less than a gnat even to you.

    that would be true if thief just backstabed and thats it, there is backstab, mug, hearthseeker, followup autos before bugged model registers, venoms etc etc.
    and this is from the stuff that doesnt allow me to fight back, 1/3-1/2 is EASY taken from me insta from stealth, if not from stealth and hearth->mug->stab its usually over half HP but it is somewhat telegraphed.

    Mug does very little damage now. But sure, lets add that. Venoms and Siphoning are included in the damage as is. Heartseeker however? No. We said exclusively about things that have no counterplay. Heartseeker is a 0.75 second cast time skill. You absolutely can avoid the damage. Thats not "instant". And autos after that are even slower. So, doesnt really change anything. You still take about a quarter of your health at most before you can react.

    So no, just the stuff that doesnt allow you to fight back is backstab and its modifiers. Its a quarter of your health, or less, instant from stealth. Not 1/3, and certainly not even close to 1/2. And no, even heartseeker into mug into stab is not even close to 1/2 hp.

    actually, skilled thief could time destealth with smoke field to leave stealth mid Heartseeker jump, so that it restealths instantly.
    that way HS is covered in stealth, at the end of its cast it leaves stealth -> mug->HS connects-> it stealths you ->backstab->1-2 basics before anyone can react.
    but that would take learning the timing, who needs that

    EDIT
    tested to make sure it works, it works 100% of the time I get the timing right.
    with assassins signet ( not activated to make it easy to do )
    scholar rune
    berserker amulet
    daredevil -> so still 13,3-13,5k HP
    I can take about 45%-50% from tough golem HP with HS+Backstab only.
    Extra dmg with followup autos or when used with signet the dmg would be bigger.
    sure hope I didnt just create new cancer lol

    I'm not gonna say anything crude. I'm just going to say that you obviously know what attack chain is coming because the thief has to approach you out of stealth and you don't dodge to avoid the damage? that sounds like a you problem from poor gameplay buddy

    following your logic when thief uses basic ability to stealth for 3s or 12s I should constantly keep dodgin?
    I dont think me and my 1 dodge can handle it friend

    No you should figure out how to play better. If you dodge the chain and the thief uses his steal, then he can't use it for about 20 seconds. Within those 20 seconds, use a block or be prepared to fight. Simple. Fighting a thief isn't rocket science, you guys just have a low skill level.

    someone is overly upset their hypermobile burst no counterplay unkillabe permastealth builds aint op no more :/

    I mean, the sPvP version wasnt Permastealth. It also wasnt "unkillable" unless you mean "Always runs away before someone can damage them" by that. Counterplay was on the lower end, but the damage was low to compensate (not as low as now, but low nonetheless). The build was not really op, it was the same thief had been since pre-HoT with a couple pauses in HoT. A build carried by Shortbow 5.

    build like these keep MANY builds out of viability, I liked scepter/axe over staff condi mes, but the moment thief uses build like this i HAVE to use staff perma protection bull build or thief comes out of stealth and chunks for 60-70% of my HP every 5-6s. only form of counterplay is being tanky enough to sustain through the bursts to facetanky levels

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    damage + mobility + no counterplay = bad time.
    in conquest every second counts, it doesnt matter that rev can deal more damage while they +1 if thief arrives 5s earlier and wins the fight on the sides already, most classes when pulled off get to be pulled off for a while and wont be able to fight back and have to wait to recover CD/health. sometimes shall push is all it takes.
    Now you gotta find those small pushes instead of traversing the map at the speed of light and booping bruisers for 60% hp from stealth.
    As it was said before, when holo/ranger/necro/rev and other bustaaad specs get some shaves thief will be fine, if you want to have different role learn different class.
    You dont see druids complaining they cant roam, necros that they cant stealth, its not their role.

    I'm really honored that you took the time out of your day to find the energy to comment on my post, but you haven't really contributed anything that I haven't already debunked already. Currently your +1 example doesn't even make sense because once again: "Thief doesn't do damage anymore."

    no, bad thiefs dont do damage anymore, the ones that took time to learn their class can still contribute

    I've gone top 100 multiple times and once again, i've been playing for years. Idk how many games I have but its in the thousands. I probably have more games on thief than you do overall. So please don't tell me that I'm a bad thief when I've put in years of learning to perfect the profession. I know every skill, trait, utility and elite. I kill streamers, I play in plat. This isn't a problem of bad thieves, this is a problem of all thieves. However, if other classes are allowed to be bad and still do damage: ranger, necro, guardian. Then why aren't thieves able to currently scavenge together a build? The entire thief thread is full of thieves asking if there's a single viable build to even play anymore. I doubt any other class currently has that problem. The answer to their question is no, thief has no viable build to play right now because people like you just complain that thief is still OP when it can't even do anything. So I would highly recommend that you do some introspection to become a better player and ask yourself what you can do better to kill thieves, and if you're feeling like you're still having trouble with thieves right now then oh buddy. I can promise you its not the thieves that are the problem but you yourself.

    there are people that played league longer then you played any game since you were born yet they are incapable of pushing past silver, time makes you play better only if you are capable of learning.
    as I said before, nerf broken bunker kitten and thief will be fine, what you lack right now is 2shoting people for free with no counterplay, too bad

    Ur not wrong it is the the majority of classes being far to bunker post patch that is making thief feel as week as it does but that also makes the thief players quarry of feeling their bursts are to weak legitimate. Whether its thief's burst was hit to hard,sustain is to low or if it's a bit of both the results are the same regarding thief players issue. This is anet were talking about right? What if they don't go the route of shaving the sustain on these classes but go a different route than thief's bursts would need looked at regardless.

    no, it wouldnt. its hard to believe but there are builds out there that are not made of 50k+ hp and perma protection.
    I do play wizard mirage from time to time and let me tell you thief can still put some real hurt into me, if you buff thief so it can pressure those 50k hp necros or 20k HP perma prot knights holos then my poor mirage will be obliterated with no tell, no counterplay and no ability to fight back. Do you think others can hurt those classes? do you think I can on mesmer? I go full glass with illusion+dueling+mirage on wizard amulet ( its like maruders ), even if I land 80% of their skills they fully sustain through that.
    I will have less sustain then thief, less dodges, less mobility but I cant hurt them regardless. As it stands you sick OP holo against another OP holo and call it a day, and I dont think there is a single roaming spec that will actually down competent holo, only chase them off the node. Maybe full glass ranger could do it? im unsure.

    The problem is that thief struggles to not just kill the full bunker builds, but even regular ones. You wont be obliterated without counterplay. The only part that has no counterplay is backstab (which is a problem, but I digress). That backstab will not hit you harder than, at the very most, 6k. Usually closer 4-5k. Your Wizard Mesmer has, what, over 20k hp? Thats less than a fourth of your health, and thats the majority of thieves damage, it just tapers off hard from there. So thief should be less than a gnat even to you.

    that would be true if thief just backstabed and thats it, there is backstab, mug, hearthseeker, followup autos before bugged model registers, venoms etc etc.
    and this is from the stuff that doesnt allow me to fight back, 1/3-1/2 is EASY taken from me insta from stealth, if not from stealth and hearth->mug->stab its usually over half HP but it is somewhat telegraphed.

    Mug does very little damage now. But sure, lets add that. Venoms and Siphoning are included in the damage as is. Heartseeker however? No. We said exclusively about things that have no counterplay. Heartseeker is a 0.75 second cast time skill. You absolutely can avoid the damage. Thats not "instant". And autos after that are even slower. So, doesnt really change anything. You still take about a quarter of your health at most before you can react.

    So no, just the stuff that doesnt allow you to fight back is backstab and its modifiers. Its a quarter of your health, or less, instant from stealth. Not 1/3, and certainly not even close to 1/2. And no, even heartseeker into mug into stab is not even close to 1/2 hp.

    actually, skilled thief could time destealth with smoke field to leave stealth mid Heartseeker jump, so that it restealths instantly.
    that way HS is covered in stealth, at the end of its cast it leaves stealth -> mug->HS connects-> it stealths you ->backstab->1-2 basics before anyone can react.
    but that would take learning the timing, who needs that

    EDIT
    tested to make sure it works, it works 100% of the time I get the timing right.
    with assassins signet ( not activated to make it easy to do )
    scholar rune
    berserker amulet
    daredevil -> so still 13,3-13,5k HP
    I can take about 45%-50% from tough golem HP with HS+Backstab only.
    Extra dmg with followup autos or when used with signet the dmg would be bigger.
    sure hope I didnt just create new cancer lol

    I'm not gonna say anything crude. I'm just going to say that you obviously know what attack chain is coming because the thief has to approach you out of stealth and you don't dodge to avoid the damage? that sounds like a you problem from poor gameplay buddy

    following your logic when thief uses basic ability to stealth for 3s or 12s I should constantly keep dodgin?
    I dont think me and my 1 dodge can handle it friend

    No you should figure out how to play better. If you dodge the chain and the thief uses his steal, then he can't use it for about 20 seconds. Within those 20 seconds, use a block or be prepared to fight. Simple. Fighting a thief isn't rocket science, you guys just have a low skill level.

    someone is overly upset their hypermobile burst no counterplay unkillabe permastealth builds aint op no more :/

    I mean, the sPvP version wasnt Permastealth. It also wasnt "unkillable" unless you mean "Always runs away before someone can damage them" by that. Counterplay was on the lower end, but the damage was low to compensate (not as low as now, but low nonetheless). The build was not really op, it was the same thief had been since pre-HoT with a couple pauses in HoT. A build carried by Shortbow 5.

    build like these keep MANY builds out of viability, I liked scepter/axe over staff condi mes, but the moment thief uses build like this i HAVE to use staff perma protection bull build or thief comes out of stealth and chunks for 60-70% of my HP every 5-6s. only form of counterplay is being tanky enough to sustain through the bursts to facetanky levels

    I mean if you cant survive a thief, you cant exactly survive a Rev or a Mesmer or anyone else either. There is no way a thief should be able to instantly chunk you for even 50% of your hp, even pre-patch. Yes, the backstab had low counterplay. Not a question, out of combat stealth is stupid and I wouldnt shed a tear if it got hit somehow. However, that backstab, even with mug, even with the leeching effects, would not exceed 8k damage on a normal build on a squishy target. Usually it would be less. That part you indeed cannot avoid. But what follows, you can avoid. For that matter, protection doesnt help you unless you have it before the thief strikes (which I dont believe Mesmer can do). But yes, if thief wouldve kept the build out of viability, it already was unviable thanks to the much stronger burst and sustained damage classes.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    damage + mobility + no counterplay = bad time.
    in conquest every second counts, it doesnt matter that rev can deal more damage while they +1 if thief arrives 5s earlier and wins the fight on the sides already, most classes when pulled off get to be pulled off for a while and wont be able to fight back and have to wait to recover CD/health. sometimes shall push is all it takes.
    Now you gotta find those small pushes instead of traversing the map at the speed of light and booping bruisers for 60% hp from stealth.
    As it was said before, when holo/ranger/necro/rev and other bustaaad specs get some shaves thief will be fine, if you want to have different role learn different class.
    You dont see druids complaining they cant roam, necros that they cant stealth, its not their role.

    I'm really honored that you took the time out of your day to find the energy to comment on my post, but you haven't really contributed anything that I haven't already debunked already. Currently your +1 example doesn't even make sense because once again: "Thief doesn't do damage anymore."

    no, bad thiefs dont do damage anymore, the ones that took time to learn their class can still contribute

    I've gone top 100 multiple times and once again, i've been playing for years. Idk how many games I have but its in the thousands. I probably have more games on thief than you do overall. So please don't tell me that I'm a bad thief when I've put in years of learning to perfect the profession. I know every skill, trait, utility and elite. I kill streamers, I play in plat. This isn't a problem of bad thieves, this is a problem of all thieves. However, if other classes are allowed to be bad and still do damage: ranger, necro, guardian. Then why aren't thieves able to currently scavenge together a build? The entire thief thread is full of thieves asking if there's a single viable build to even play anymore. I doubt any other class currently has that problem. The answer to their question is no, thief has no viable build to play right now because people like you just complain that thief is still OP when it can't even do anything. So I would highly recommend that you do some introspection to become a better player and ask yourself what you can do better to kill thieves, and if you're feeling like you're still having trouble with thieves right now then oh buddy. I can promise you its not the thieves that are the problem but you yourself.

    there are people that played league longer then you played any game since you were born yet they are incapable of pushing past silver, time makes you play better only if you are capable of learning.
    as I said before, nerf broken bunker kitten and thief will be fine, what you lack right now is 2shoting people for free with no counterplay, too bad

    Ur not wrong it is the the majority of classes being far to bunker post patch that is making thief feel as week as it does but that also makes the thief players quarry of feeling their bursts are to weak legitimate. Whether its thief's burst was hit to hard,sustain is to low or if it's a bit of both the results are the same regarding thief players issue. This is anet were talking about right? What if they don't go the route of shaving the sustain on these classes but go a different route than thief's bursts would need looked at regardless.

    no, it wouldnt. its hard to believe but there are builds out there that are not made of 50k+ hp and perma protection.
    I do play wizard mirage from time to time and let me tell you thief can still put some real hurt into me, if you buff thief so it can pressure those 50k hp necros or 20k HP perma prot knights holos then my poor mirage will be obliterated with no tell, no counterplay and no ability to fight back. Do you think others can hurt those classes? do you think I can on mesmer? I go full glass with illusion+dueling+mirage on wizard amulet ( its like maruders ), even if I land 80% of their skills they fully sustain through that.
    I will have less sustain then thief, less dodges, less mobility but I cant hurt them regardless. As it stands you sick OP holo against another OP holo and call it a day, and I dont think there is a single roaming spec that will actually down competent holo, only chase them off the node. Maybe full glass ranger could do it? im unsure.

    The problem is that thief struggles to not just kill the full bunker builds, but even regular ones. You wont be obliterated without counterplay. The only part that has no counterplay is backstab (which is a problem, but I digress). That backstab will not hit you harder than, at the very most, 6k. Usually closer 4-5k. Your Wizard Mesmer has, what, over 20k hp? Thats less than a fourth of your health, and thats the majority of thieves damage, it just tapers off hard from there. So thief should be less than a gnat even to you.

    that would be true if thief just backstabed and thats it, there is backstab, mug, hearthseeker, followup autos before bugged model registers, venoms etc etc.
    and this is from the stuff that doesnt allow me to fight back, 1/3-1/2 is EASY taken from me insta from stealth, if not from stealth and hearth->mug->stab its usually over half HP but it is somewhat telegraphed.

    Mug does very little damage now. But sure, lets add that. Venoms and Siphoning are included in the damage as is. Heartseeker however? No. We said exclusively about things that have no counterplay. Heartseeker is a 0.75 second cast time skill. You absolutely can avoid the damage. Thats not "instant". And autos after that are even slower. So, doesnt really change anything. You still take about a quarter of your health at most before you can react.

    So no, just the stuff that doesnt allow you to fight back is backstab and its modifiers. Its a quarter of your health, or less, instant from stealth. Not 1/3, and certainly not even close to 1/2. And no, even heartseeker into mug into stab is not even close to 1/2 hp.

    actually, skilled thief could time destealth with smoke field to leave stealth mid Heartseeker jump, so that it restealths instantly.
    that way HS is covered in stealth, at the end of its cast it leaves stealth -> mug->HS connects-> it stealths you ->backstab->1-2 basics before anyone can react.
    but that would take learning the timing, who needs that

    EDIT
    tested to make sure it works, it works 100% of the time I get the timing right.
    with assassins signet ( not activated to make it easy to do )
    scholar rune
    berserker amulet
    daredevil -> so still 13,3-13,5k HP
    I can take about 45%-50% from tough golem HP with HS+Backstab only.
    Extra dmg with followup autos or when used with signet the dmg would be bigger.
    sure hope I didnt just create new cancer lol

    I'm not gonna say anything crude. I'm just going to say that you obviously know what attack chain is coming because the thief has to approach you out of stealth and you don't dodge to avoid the damage? that sounds like a you problem from poor gameplay buddy

    following your logic when thief uses basic ability to stealth for 3s or 12s I should constantly keep dodgin?
    I dont think me and my 1 dodge can handle it friend

    No you should figure out how to play better. If you dodge the chain and the thief uses his steal, then he can't use it for about 20 seconds. Within those 20 seconds, use a block or be prepared to fight. Simple. Fighting a thief isn't rocket science, you guys just have a low skill level.

    someone is overly upset their hypermobile burst no counterplay unkillabe permastealth builds aint op no more :/

    I mean, the sPvP version wasnt Permastealth. It also wasnt "unkillable" unless you mean "Always runs away before someone can damage them" by that. Counterplay was on the lower end, but the damage was low to compensate (not as low as now, but low nonetheless). The build was not really op, it was the same thief had been since pre-HoT with a couple pauses in HoT. A build carried by Shortbow 5.

    build like these keep MANY builds out of viability, I liked scepter/axe over staff condi mes, but the moment thief uses build like this i HAVE to use staff perma protection bull build or thief comes out of stealth and chunks for 60-70% of my HP every 5-6s. only form of counterplay is being tanky enough to sustain through the bursts to facetanky levels

    I mean if you cant survive a thief, you cant exactly survive a Rev or a Mesmer or anyone else either. There is no way a thief should be able to instantly chunk you for even 50% of your hp, even pre-patch. Yes, the backstab had low counterplay. Not a question, out of combat stealth is stupid and I wouldnt shed a tear if it got hit somehow. However, that backstab, even with mug, even with the leeching effects, would not exceed 8k damage on a normal build on a squishy target. Usually it would be less. That part you indeed cannot avoid. But what follows, you can avoid. For that matter, protection doesnt help you unless you have it before the thief strikes (which I dont believe Mesmer can do). But yes, if thief wouldve kept the build out of viability, it already was unviable thanks to the much stronger burst and sustained damage classes.

    nah, i could 1v1 revs, I could 1v1 warriors, I could 1v1 rangers and holos. but against thief there wasnt even fighting back allowed, if enemy team took thief or 2 im forced into undeath runes, rabid amulet and perma prot build or I risk constantly losing 50%+ hp from stealth every 5-6s.

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 25, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    https://imgur.com/gallery/dzJncPB
    this is the test I got.
    Thing to note.
    1 I forgot to mug, and due to that I missed many dmg modifiers.
    stealing inflicts -> poison,weakness, potentially confusion. that is 4-6% dmg from exposed weakness 6-8% with even the odds, should have taken it insead of revealed I think.
    3-4% dmg from compounding sigil
    3 might from thrill of crime
    I would also gain fury,might,swiftness,vigor that gives extra 2% dmg from enhancement sigil.
    Target above 50% so no executioner
    I also think i wasnt incombat so no lead attacks -> unsure of that one.

    Well, I did expect a max damage build. Those arent really playable, you see what happened to Vallun when he tried a (slightly less max damage) version. Anyway, even with those modifiers added (rough math here), that shouldnt add any more than around 8% damage. Thats around 8k damage total. Even with a max damage build, thats only just above a third of the golems hp. Its also less than a single grenade barrage.

    Until you do the Barrage (0.5 sec cast time) , he can do 4 auto attacks for an extra 3000 damage(istant-istant--0,25-istant) , which scales with those modifiers > so they become 12k burst on Heavy targets .combined on the backstab
    Which he can repeat it with every stealth , but you have 1x Grenade Barrgage :P

    So you where wrong about thief burst :P

    Ive never seen someone so undeterred by their lack of knowledge about thief. The Dagger autoattacks are much, much slower than that. The whole sequence is 1.68 seconds. So you cant include it. Sorry. Wrong as always.

    They dont have internal global cd global cd (wait 0.25) before they can do the other attack :P
    Before the culling ( you go in stealth 0,15 after the execute the stealth combo > and you are releaved 0,15 after) you are already in the second ayto attack

    Global ... cooldown? This is GW2, not WoW. There is no global cooldown. And the rest is just your typical rambling nonsense, so I will ignore it.

    So thief cannot burst , that you proclaimed all thise time , is wrong :P
    You should have listened to be and not use defensive traiits :P

    Oh no, its still correct. That build is still unplayable. And you know why I didnt listen to you? You are wrong about everything. I dont listen to wrong things.

    What is correct ?
    You add up to the Mesmers The Mirror Blade +Mind stab + other 0,5 sec cast time spells to their Burst .

    I dont add Mind Stab. Or any cast time spells other than mirror blade, which gets pre-cast in stealth. I only add together damage that all happens in an instant. Since, you know, thats the point.

    And just happen to forget that auto attacks can help add up the to the damage ?

    Autoattacks arent part of the instant burst. If I wanted to add those, I would stuff like Mind Stab to Mesmer. But then the damage gap gets even bigger in Mesmers favour.

    You are not correct . You where never :P THta why we argue about ''Myopia'' :P

    You really love that word. You heard it once ,thought it sounded smart, and tried to use it as much as possible, even when it makes no sense to use it. Im sorry to say, but it doesnt sound smart. It just makes you look like a fool.

    a)If they precasted Mind stab +Mirror blade , then you know where the mesmers is , why you whined about Mesmers doing ''cannot'' dodge dmage in the Mesmers thread ?

    Out of combat stealth.

    b) auto attacka are part of the rotation . Mind stab has a cd .

    Doesnt matter, you dont burst every second.

    1) You can avoid those 2 spells out of combat . Both are 0.5 sec cst time . They cannot use for the Burst stealth for istant undodgable damage , that you said in the past

    You cant avoid them if you dont know the Mesmer is there. Say, for example if they used out of combat stealth.

    2) Wott ? If you avoid those 2x 0,5 cast spells , you halved the damage of the Mesmer , So its burst lies at 9k also :P

    Which you cant. Its burst is much higher.

    3) Thief cant burst :P

    It indeed cant reasonably burst. But you and your grade-school level lies are getting tiresome.

    1) Mesmers have 3 sec stealth . Whch both have high cd . We talked about it

    Which doesnt matter since you dont burst that often. We indeed talked about it. You refused to learn anything, as you always do.

    2) Its more avoidable . 2 spells are 0.5 cast time . Avoiding those halves their damage
    Its like Death's Judgment 0,5 sec cast

    Death's Judgment is super telegraphed. Mirror Blade from stealth is not telegraphed at all. One can be easily avoided. The other cant be avoided at all.

    3)t indeed can reasonably burst. But you and your grade-school level lies are getting tiresome
    I WILL GO TO UNERVISITY THISE YEAR YOU KNOW ! YOU DONT HAVE TO PICK ME FOR MY grade-school STUFF !

    I predict you will have trouble given your tendency to not learn anything.

    4) After the Backstab and the enemy is Feared for 1sec , why wouldnt anyone use auto attack to boost their dps on a cc-ed target !

    Stunbreak/condi cleanse. The enemy is no longer feared. Besides, were talking instant damage here. If you want to include more, I could slap on damage on the Mesmer as well. It just goes further into the Mesmers favour.

    1) You are saying NOW that Mesmers went out of combat and you got bursted .
    Its 3 sec . What out of combat stealth ? He was there 3 sec away from you .

    2) If he used Mirror Blade or Mind Stab in stealth , he would be unstealth and he wouldnt do the rest of the combo in stealth

    3) Even if he did stunbreaks , you would have time to continue the auto attack sequience . Thats thiefs where doing when they use Basilisk Poison in the old days , They didn stop at Backstab and then took a break , even if was stunbreaked
    8k + leach + 3k auto attacks =11k burst for a spec that in daredevil spec has 30% damage reduction +weakness + dash

    Mr/Ms Ncsoft, the West is weakened leaving space for new games(asian too). I know the ManaWo..ggs
    used the RnD Labs as testing ground,but can you let them be alone and not DMCA their video?
    Sincerely humble Butler, willigly letting his body to be exploited , or find another master -crystal ball

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    damage + mobility + no counterplay = bad time.
    in conquest every second counts, it doesnt matter that rev can deal more damage while they +1 if thief arrives 5s earlier and wins the fight on the sides already, most classes when pulled off get to be pulled off for a while and wont be able to fight back and have to wait to recover CD/health. sometimes shall push is all it takes.
    Now you gotta find those small pushes instead of traversing the map at the speed of light and booping bruisers for 60% hp from stealth.
    As it was said before, when holo/ranger/necro/rev and other bustaaad specs get some shaves thief will be fine, if you want to have different role learn different class.
    You dont see druids complaining they cant roam, necros that they cant stealth, its not their role.

    I'm really honored that you took the time out of your day to find the energy to comment on my post, but you haven't really contributed anything that I haven't already debunked already. Currently your +1 example doesn't even make sense because once again: "Thief doesn't do damage anymore."

    no, bad thiefs dont do damage anymore, the ones that took time to learn their class can still contribute

    I've gone top 100 multiple times and once again, i've been playing for years. Idk how many games I have but its in the thousands. I probably have more games on thief than you do overall. So please don't tell me that I'm a bad thief when I've put in years of learning to perfect the profession. I know every skill, trait, utility and elite. I kill streamers, I play in plat. This isn't a problem of bad thieves, this is a problem of all thieves. However, if other classes are allowed to be bad and still do damage: ranger, necro, guardian. Then why aren't thieves able to currently scavenge together a build? The entire thief thread is full of thieves asking if there's a single viable build to even play anymore. I doubt any other class currently has that problem. The answer to their question is no, thief has no viable build to play right now because people like you just complain that thief is still OP when it can't even do anything. So I would highly recommend that you do some introspection to become a better player and ask yourself what you can do better to kill thieves, and if you're feeling like you're still having trouble with thieves right now then oh buddy. I can promise you its not the thieves that are the problem but you yourself.

    there are people that played league longer then you played any game since you were born yet they are incapable of pushing past silver, time makes you play better only if you are capable of learning.
    as I said before, nerf broken bunker kitten and thief will be fine, what you lack right now is 2shoting people for free with no counterplay, too bad

    Ur not wrong it is the the majority of classes being far to bunker post patch that is making thief feel as week as it does but that also makes the thief players quarry of feeling their bursts are to weak legitimate. Whether its thief's burst was hit to hard,sustain is to low or if it's a bit of both the results are the same regarding thief players issue. This is anet were talking about right? What if they don't go the route of shaving the sustain on these classes but go a different route than thief's bursts would need looked at regardless.

    no, it wouldnt. its hard to believe but there are builds out there that are not made of 50k+ hp and perma protection.
    I do play wizard mirage from time to time and let me tell you thief can still put some real hurt into me, if you buff thief so it can pressure those 50k hp necros or 20k HP perma prot knights holos then my poor mirage will be obliterated with no tell, no counterplay and no ability to fight back. Do you think others can hurt those classes? do you think I can on mesmer? I go full glass with illusion+dueling+mirage on wizard amulet ( its like maruders ), even if I land 80% of their skills they fully sustain through that.
    I will have less sustain then thief, less dodges, less mobility but I cant hurt them regardless. As it stands you sick OP holo against another OP holo and call it a day, and I dont think there is a single roaming spec that will actually down competent holo, only chase them off the node. Maybe full glass ranger could do it? im unsure.

    The problem is that thief struggles to not just kill the full bunker builds, but even regular ones. You wont be obliterated without counterplay. The only part that has no counterplay is backstab (which is a problem, but I digress). That backstab will not hit you harder than, at the very most, 6k. Usually closer 4-5k. Your Wizard Mesmer has, what, over 20k hp? Thats less than a fourth of your health, and thats the majority of thieves damage, it just tapers off hard from there. So thief should be less than a gnat even to you.

    that would be true if thief just backstabed and thats it, there is backstab, mug, hearthseeker, followup autos before bugged model registers, venoms etc etc.
    and this is from the stuff that doesnt allow me to fight back, 1/3-1/2 is EASY taken from me insta from stealth, if not from stealth and hearth->mug->stab its usually over half HP but it is somewhat telegraphed.

    Mug does very little damage now. But sure, lets add that. Venoms and Siphoning are included in the damage as is. Heartseeker however? No. We said exclusively about things that have no counterplay. Heartseeker is a 0.75 second cast time skill. You absolutely can avoid the damage. Thats not "instant". And autos after that are even slower. So, doesnt really change anything. You still take about a quarter of your health at most before you can react.

    So no, just the stuff that doesnt allow you to fight back is backstab and its modifiers. Its a quarter of your health, or less, instant from stealth. Not 1/3, and certainly not even close to 1/2. And no, even heartseeker into mug into stab is not even close to 1/2 hp.

    actually, skilled thief could time destealth with smoke field to leave stealth mid Heartseeker jump, so that it restealths instantly.
    that way HS is covered in stealth, at the end of its cast it leaves stealth -> mug->HS connects-> it stealths you ->backstab->1-2 basics before anyone can react.
    but that would take learning the timing, who needs that

    EDIT
    tested to make sure it works, it works 100% of the time I get the timing right.
    with assassins signet ( not activated to make it easy to do )
    scholar rune
    berserker amulet
    daredevil -> so still 13,3-13,5k HP
    I can take about 45%-50% from tough golem HP with HS+Backstab only.
    Extra dmg with followup autos or when used with signet the dmg would be bigger.
    sure hope I didnt just create new cancer lol

    I'm not gonna say anything crude. I'm just going to say that you obviously know what attack chain is coming because the thief has to approach you out of stealth and you don't dodge to avoid the damage? that sounds like a you problem from poor gameplay buddy

    following your logic when thief uses basic ability to stealth for 3s or 12s I should constantly keep dodgin?
    I dont think me and my 1 dodge can handle it friend

    No you should figure out how to play better. If you dodge the chain and the thief uses his steal, then he can't use it for about 20 seconds. Within those 20 seconds, use a block or be prepared to fight. Simple. Fighting a thief isn't rocket science, you guys just have a low skill level.

    someone is overly upset their hypermobile burst no counterplay unkillabe permastealth builds aint op no more :/

    I mean, the sPvP version wasnt Permastealth. It also wasnt "unkillable" unless you mean "Always runs away before someone can damage them" by that. Counterplay was on the lower end, but the damage was low to compensate (not as low as now, but low nonetheless). The build was not really op, it was the same thief had been since pre-HoT with a couple pauses in HoT. A build carried by Shortbow 5.

    build like these keep MANY builds out of viability, I liked scepter/axe over staff condi mes, but the moment thief uses build like this i HAVE to use staff perma protection bull build or thief comes out of stealth and chunks for 60-70% of my HP every 5-6s. only form of counterplay is being tanky enough to sustain through the bursts to facetanky levels

    I mean if you cant survive a thief, you cant exactly survive a Rev or a Mesmer or anyone else either. There is no way a thief should be able to instantly chunk you for even 50% of your hp, even pre-patch. Yes, the backstab had low counterplay. Not a question, out of combat stealth is stupid and I wouldnt shed a tear if it got hit somehow. However, that backstab, even with mug, even with the leeching effects, would not exceed 8k damage on a normal build on a squishy target. Usually it would be less. That part you indeed cannot avoid. But what follows, you can avoid. For that matter, protection doesnt help you unless you have it before the thief strikes (which I dont believe Mesmer can do). But yes, if thief wouldve kept the build out of viability, it already was unviable thanks to the much stronger burst and sustained damage classes.

    nah, i could 1v1 revs, I could 1v1 warriors, I could 1v1 rangers and holos. but against thief there wasnt even fighting back allowed, if enemy team took thief or 2 im forced into undeath runes, rabid amulet and perma prot build or I risk constantly losing 50%+ hp from stealth every 5-6s.

    That ... sorry Im just gonna say, thats completely unbelievable. I can believe that thief would give you trouble if you were playing condi mirage precisely because of consume plasma (I mean it is kinda bonkers). But there is absolutely no way you would lose 50% hp, let alone more, from stealth, even if you had 0 toughness. Maybe if you had 0 toughness and 0 vitality and the thief was playing a higher damage build like Crit Strikes (that would be worse in general), maybe then. But even then, you get burst once, and then the thief wont be able to burst again until he gets out of combat, stealths up in a safe spot, and comes running to you, which is a lot more than 5-6 seconds.

    But yes, even then, if thief did that much burst damage, then Rev shouldve just obliterated you instantly. No build that was unviable because of thief wouldve been viable anyway. Or rather, it was unviable because of thief. It was unviable because it couldnt handle burst, not even from the lowest burst damage class running around.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @darren.1064 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    damage + mobility + no counterplay = bad time.
    in conquest every second counts, it doesnt matter that rev can deal more damage while they +1 if thief arrives 5s earlier and wins the fight on the sides already, most classes when pulled off get to be pulled off for a while and wont be able to fight back and have to wait to recover CD/health. sometimes shall push is all it takes.
    Now you gotta find those small pushes instead of traversing the map at the speed of light and booping bruisers for 60% hp from stealth.
    As it was said before, when holo/ranger/necro/rev and other bustaaad specs get some shaves thief will be fine, if you want to have different role learn different class.
    You dont see druids complaining they cant roam, necros that they cant stealth, its not their role.

    I'm really honored that you took the time out of your day to find the energy to comment on my post, but you haven't really contributed anything that I haven't already debunked already. Currently your +1 example doesn't even make sense because once again: "Thief doesn't do damage anymore."

    no, bad thiefs dont do damage anymore, the ones that took time to learn their class can still contribute

    I've gone top 100 multiple times and once again, i've been playing for years. Idk how many games I have but its in the thousands. I probably have more games on thief than you do overall. So please don't tell me that I'm a bad thief when I've put in years of learning to perfect the profession. I know every skill, trait, utility and elite. I kill streamers, I play in plat. This isn't a problem of bad thieves, this is a problem of all thieves. However, if other classes are allowed to be bad and still do damage: ranger, necro, guardian. Then why aren't thieves able to currently scavenge together a build? The entire thief thread is full of thieves asking if there's a single viable build to even play anymore. I doubt any other class currently has that problem. The answer to their question is no, thief has no viable build to play right now because people like you just complain that thief is still OP when it can't even do anything. So I would highly recommend that you do some introspection to become a better player and ask yourself what you can do better to kill thieves, and if you're feeling like you're still having trouble with thieves right now then oh buddy. I can promise you its not the thieves that are the problem but you yourself.

    there are people that played league longer then you played any game since you were born yet they are incapable of pushing past silver, time makes you play better only if you are capable of learning.
    as I said before, nerf broken bunker kitten and thief will be fine, what you lack right now is 2shoting people for free with no counterplay, too bad

    Ur not wrong it is the the majority of classes being far to bunker post patch that is making thief feel as week as it does but that also makes the thief players quarry of feeling their bursts are to weak legitimate. Whether its thief's burst was hit to hard,sustain is to low or if it's a bit of both the results are the same regarding thief players issue. This is anet were talking about right? What if they don't go the route of shaving the sustain on these classes but go a different route than thief's bursts would need looked at regardless.

    no, it wouldnt. its hard to believe but there are builds out there that are not made of 50k+ hp and perma protection.
    I do play wizard mirage from time to time and let me tell you thief can still put some real hurt into me, if you buff thief so it can pressure those 50k hp necros or 20k HP perma prot knights holos then my poor mirage will be obliterated with no tell, no counterplay and no ability to fight back. Do you think others can hurt those classes? do you think I can on mesmer? I go full glass with illusion+dueling+mirage on wizard amulet ( its like maruders ), even if I land 80% of their skills they fully sustain through that.
    I will have less sustain then thief, less dodges, less mobility but I cant hurt them regardless. As it stands you sick OP holo against another OP holo and call it a day, and I dont think there is a single roaming spec that will actually down competent holo, only chase them off the node. Maybe full glass ranger could do it? im unsure.

    The problem is that thief struggles to not just kill the full bunker builds, but even regular ones. You wont be obliterated without counterplay. The only part that has no counterplay is backstab (which is a problem, but I digress). That backstab will not hit you harder than, at the very most, 6k. Usually closer 4-5k. Your Wizard Mesmer has, what, over 20k hp? Thats less than a fourth of your health, and thats the majority of thieves damage, it just tapers off hard from there. So thief should be less than a gnat even to you.

    that would be true if thief just backstabed and thats it, there is backstab, mug, hearthseeker, followup autos before bugged model registers, venoms etc etc.
    and this is from the stuff that doesnt allow me to fight back, 1/3-1/2 is EASY taken from me insta from stealth, if not from stealth and hearth->mug->stab its usually over half HP but it is somewhat telegraphed.

    Mug does very little damage now. But sure, lets add that. Venoms and Siphoning are included in the damage as is. Heartseeker however? No. We said exclusively about things that have no counterplay. Heartseeker is a 0.75 second cast time skill. You absolutely can avoid the damage. Thats not "instant". And autos after that are even slower. So, doesnt really change anything. You still take about a quarter of your health at most before you can react.

    So no, just the stuff that doesnt allow you to fight back is backstab and its modifiers. Its a quarter of your health, or less, instant from stealth. Not 1/3, and certainly not even close to 1/2. And no, even heartseeker into mug into stab is not even close to 1/2 hp.

    actually, skilled thief could time destealth with smoke field to leave stealth mid Heartseeker jump, so that it restealths instantly.
    that way HS is covered in stealth, at the end of its cast it leaves stealth -> mug->HS connects-> it stealths you ->backstab->1-2 basics before anyone can react.
    but that would take learning the timing, who needs that

    EDIT
    tested to make sure it works, it works 100% of the time I get the timing right.
    with assassins signet ( not activated to make it easy to do )
    scholar rune
    berserker amulet
    daredevil -> so still 13,3-13,5k HP
    I can take about 45%-50% from tough golem HP with HS+Backstab only.
    Extra dmg with followup autos or when used with signet the dmg would be bigger.
    sure hope I didnt just create new cancer lol

    I'm not gonna say anything crude. I'm just going to say that you obviously know what attack chain is coming because the thief has to approach you out of stealth and you don't dodge to avoid the damage? that sounds like a you problem from poor gameplay buddy

    following your logic when thief uses basic ability to stealth for 3s or 12s I should constantly keep dodgin?
    I dont think me and my 1 dodge can handle it friend

    No you should figure out how to play better. If you dodge the chain and the thief uses his steal, then he can't use it for about 20 seconds. Within those 20 seconds, use a block or be prepared to fight. Simple. Fighting a thief isn't rocket science, you guys just have a low skill level.

    someone is overly upset their hypermobile burst no counterplay unkillabe permastealth builds aint op no more :/

    I mean, the sPvP version wasnt Permastealth. It also wasnt "unkillable" unless you mean "Always runs away before someone can damage them" by that. Counterplay was on the lower end, but the damage was low to compensate (not as low as now, but low nonetheless). The build was not really op, it was the same thief had been since pre-HoT with a couple pauses in HoT. A build carried by Shortbow 5.

    build like these keep MANY builds out of viability, I liked scepter/axe over staff condi mes, but the moment thief uses build like this i HAVE to use staff perma protection bull build or thief comes out of stealth and chunks for 60-70% of my HP every 5-6s. only form of counterplay is being tanky enough to sustain through the bursts to facetanky levels

    I mean if you cant survive a thief, you cant exactly survive a Rev or a Mesmer or anyone else either. There is no way a thief should be able to instantly chunk you for even 50% of your hp, even pre-patch. Yes, the backstab had low counterplay. Not a question, out of combat stealth is stupid and I wouldnt shed a tear if it got hit somehow. However, that backstab, even with mug, even with the leeching effects, would not exceed 8k damage on a normal build on a squishy target. Usually it would be less. That part you indeed cannot avoid. But what follows, you can avoid. For that matter, protection doesnt help you unless you have it before the thief strikes (which I dont believe Mesmer can do). But yes, if thief wouldve kept the build out of viability, it already was unviable thanks to the much stronger burst and sustained damage classes.

    nah, i could 1v1 revs, I could 1v1 warriors, I could 1v1 rangers and holos. but against thief there wasnt even fighting back allowed, if enemy team took thief or 2 im forced into undeath runes, rabid amulet and perma prot build or I risk constantly losing 50%+ hp from stealth every 5-6s.

    That ... sorry Im just gonna say, thats completely unbelievable. I can believe that thief would give you trouble if you were playing condi mirage precisely because of consume plasma (I mean it is kinda bonkers). But there is absolutely no way you would lose 50% hp, let alone more, from stealth, even if you had 0 toughness. Maybe if you had 0 toughness and 0 vitality and the thief was playing a higher damage build like Crit Strikes (that would be worse in general), maybe then. But even then, you get burst once, and then the thief wont be able to burst again until he gets out of combat, stealths up in a safe spot, and comes running to you, which is a lot more than 5-6 seconds.

    But yes, even then, if thief did that much burst damage, then Rev shouldve just obliterated you instantly. No build that was unviable because of thief wouldve been viable anyway. Or rather, it was unviable because of thief. It was unviable because it couldnt handle burst, not even from the lowest burst damage class running around.

    its not the plasma, he can engage from stealth and freely restealth with every smokefield, and there is nothing I can do.
    no aoe to prevent, projectiles get blocked, in fact they could just flop the field and deny me entire point ( most didnt know that lul ) becouse most condi mes damage was projectiles
    thief vs mesmer is not only because of plasma, mesmer survives by kiting and evading attacks, thief has ways to make their attacks almost unavoidable and can stick to mesmer, staff 2, jaunt, blink... are really strong when it comes to fightning warrior or necro but against thief they are half useless, all plasma does is a middle finger after a slap.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    https://imgur.com/gallery/dzJncPB
    this is the test I got.
    Thing to note.
    1 I forgot to mug, and due to that I missed many dmg modifiers.
    stealing inflicts -> poison,weakness, potentially confusion. that is 4-6% dmg from exposed weakness 6-8% with even the odds, should have taken it insead of revealed I think.
    3-4% dmg from compounding sigil
    3 might from thrill of crime
    I would also gain fury,might,swiftness,vigor that gives extra 2% dmg from enhancement sigil.
    Target above 50% so no executioner
    I also think i wasnt incombat so no lead attacks -> unsure of that one.

    Well, I did expect a max damage build. Those arent really playable, you see what happened to Vallun when he tried a (slightly less max damage) version. Anyway, even with those modifiers added (rough math here), that shouldnt add any more than around 8% damage. Thats around 8k damage total. Even with a max damage build, thats only just above a third of the golems hp. Its also less than a single grenade barrage.

    Until you do the Barrage (0.5 sec cast time) , he can do 4 auto attacks for an extra 3000 damage(istant-istant--0,25-istant) , which scales with those modifiers > so they become 12k burst on Heavy targets .combined on the backstab
    Which he can repeat it with every stealth , but you have 1x Grenade Barrgage :P

    So you where wrong about thief burst :P

    Ive never seen someone so undeterred by their lack of knowledge about thief. The Dagger autoattacks are much, much slower than that. The whole sequence is 1.68 seconds. So you cant include it. Sorry. Wrong as always.

    They dont have internal global cd global cd (wait 0.25) before they can do the other attack :P
    Before the culling ( you go in stealth 0,15 after the execute the stealth combo > and you are releaved 0,15 after) you are already in the second ayto attack

    Global ... cooldown? This is GW2, not WoW. There is no global cooldown. And the rest is just your typical rambling nonsense, so I will ignore it.

    So thief cannot burst , that you proclaimed all thise time , is wrong :P
    You should have listened to be and not use defensive traiits :P

    Oh no, its still correct. That build is still unplayable. And you know why I didnt listen to you? You are wrong about everything. I dont listen to wrong things.

    What is correct ?
    You add up to the Mesmers The Mirror Blade +Mind stab + other 0,5 sec cast time spells to their Burst .

    I dont add Mind Stab. Or any cast time spells other than mirror blade, which gets pre-cast in stealth. I only add together damage that all happens in an instant. Since, you know, thats the point.

    And just happen to forget that auto attacks can help add up the to the damage ?

    Autoattacks arent part of the instant burst. If I wanted to add those, I would stuff like Mind Stab to Mesmer. But then the damage gap gets even bigger in Mesmers favour.

    You are not correct . You where never :P THta why we argue about ''Myopia'' :P

    You really love that word. You heard it once ,thought it sounded smart, and tried to use it as much as possible, even when it makes no sense to use it. Im sorry to say, but it doesnt sound smart. It just makes you look like a fool.

    a)If they precasted Mind stab +Mirror blade , then you know where the mesmers is , why you whined about Mesmers doing ''cannot'' dodge dmage in the Mesmers thread ?

    Out of combat stealth.

    b) auto attacka are part of the rotation . Mind stab has a cd .

    Doesnt matter, you dont burst every second.

    1) You can avoid those 2 spells out of combat . Both are 0.5 sec cst time . They cannot use for the Burst stealth for istant undodgable damage , that you said in the past

    You cant avoid them if you dont know the Mesmer is there. Say, for example if they used out of combat stealth.

    2) Wott ? If you avoid those 2x 0,5 cast spells , you halved the damage of the Mesmer , So its burst lies at 9k also :P

    Which you cant. Its burst is much higher.

    3) Thief cant burst :P

    It indeed cant reasonably burst. But you and your grade-school level lies are getting tiresome.

    1) Mesmers have 3 sec stealth . Whch both have high cd . We talked about it

    Which doesnt matter since you dont burst that often. We indeed talked about it. You refused to learn anything, as you always do.

    2) Its more avoidable . 2 spells are 0.5 cast time . Avoiding those halves their damage
    Its like Death's Judgment 0,5 sec cast

    Death's Judgment is super telegraphed. Mirror Blade from stealth is not telegraphed at all. One can be easily avoided. The other cant be avoided at all.

    3)t indeed can reasonably burst. But you and your grade-school level lies are getting tiresome
    I WILL GO TO UNERVISITY THISE YEAR YOU KNOW ! YOU DONT HAVE TO PICK ME FOR MY grade-school STUFF !

    I predict you will have trouble given your tendency to not learn anything.

    4) After the Backstab and the enemy is Feared for 1sec , why wouldnt anyone use auto attack to boost their dps on a cc-ed target !

    Stunbreak/condi cleanse. The enemy is no longer feared. Besides, were talking instant damage here. If you want to include more, I could slap on damage on the Mesmer as well. It just goes further into the Mesmers favour.

    1) You are saying NOW that Mesmers went out of combat and you got bursted .
    Its 3 sec . What out of combat stealth ? He was there 3 sec away from you .

    ... you do know that you usually burst when you engage a new target? They didnt "go out of combat", they were out of combat by default.

    2) If he used Mirror Blade or Mind Stab in stealth , he would be unstealth and he wouldnt do the rest of the combo in stealth

    Lets add Mesmer to "pile of things you have not even the faintest clue about". Let me explain how the combo works. So, the way it works is you engage in stealth. You pre-cast Mirror Blade while you get into melee range of the enemy. Then you use power spike, have the mirror blade hit and use mind wrack all in an instant. The entire combo happens instantly out of stealth. Its like backstab. Do you understand now?

    3) Even if he did stunbreaks , you would have time to continue the auto attack sequience . Thats thiefs where doing when they use Basilisk Poison in the old days , They didn stop at Backstab and then took a break , even if was stunbreaked

    The thieves didnt use backstab much in the old days. And if he stunbreaks and pops active defense or CCs you, you dont get to continue the autoattack sequence. Thats why its not counted amongst the instant stuff.

    8k + leach + 3k auto attacks =11k burst for a spec that in daredevil spec has 30% damage reduction +weakness + dash

    Damage is lower than that, auto attacks are not included in burst, the damage reduction doesnt matter. You know what, Im just not even gonna bother. You refuse to learn. You have 0 clue about anything about thief. Every single thing you say is categorically completely wrong, and yet you refuse to learn. Talking to you is a waste of time, because you revel in your ignorance. Maybe university will be able to make you learn finally. Otherwise, you will struggle.