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Analytics should not drive the direction of the game...

And I'm glad that for the most part it hasn't. A lot of the new content in the latest releases have stemmed as a response to the accessibility of raiding, with strikes being the driving force behind the design of the content. However, if this is a response to analytics, then what's being done is in my opinion, a bad way to push players in. As a whole raiding in this game is probably more accessible than it is in any other MMORPG out there on the market right now. It really boils down to the statement "how bad does the player want it", and it's been that way since raids were released. Now there seems to be a lot of hostility (that I've brought a lot of light to) from the community of players as a whole because the players have created a division between "casual" and "hardcore" and I myself have done so in the past admittedly joined in, but I recently changed my mind in looking at players as one or the other. The way I see it everyone in the game no matter how serious you play is a player, not a casual player, not a hardcore player, but just a player.

Raiding is not the factor that creates this division either, the reality is that players are not even trying at all to adjust, understand, or develop skill and then trying to enforce this weird thing everyone also cultivated called a skill cap as if it were some sort of domino effect on everyone. When looking at the behavior and mindset of everyone asking ANET to push out different difficulties for things, they don't see that what they're doing is actually degrading the quality of the fun that the game brings about. I wish I could explain in detail how this works, but it's hard to put the words together without actual experience, but from other's mistakes the game developers at ANET.

However the major contributor to the only game that has ever started the idea of raiding is in fact WoW, and it's greatest downfall became how Blizzard used analytics to create a for-profit experience as opposed to a for-fun game. From a business perspective being greedy and hostile to your audience for money (which is not what ANET is currently doing) is exactly what led to the downfall of many businesses and products. KFC did it to Colonel Sanders to reduce the cost of his original chicken formula, and now they use his face and belittle his memory as their trademark, now Popeyes dominates over fried chicken fast food, than KFC does. In the world of MMORPG Blizzard did the same thing to their beloved WoW and the creators were absolutely destroyed by what happened and even made their own accounts at how evil it was to make their game for profit.

They introduced multiple raiding difficulties expecting higher profits, which it did but not in the long run, and that led to the downfall of the game, raiders hated that because it reduced the quality of the incentive to even do raiding. Take this man named Harry that I knew from GameStop when I was 12. Harry at the time was 35 and loved wrath of the lich king and he had a static group for doing ICC. What happened is he did ICC on normal about 150 times. I'll let that sink in for a minute, 150 times! In essence Blizzard chose to spend more time and effort making the game easier as opposed to pushing out quality content to maximize their profits, and when they did this the number of raids in an expansion went from 25 to 5. What was a journey in which you traveled with your guild suddenly became less of a journey and more of a free-for-all for profits. When Harry's group finally said they were going to do heroic mode he was so fed up as naturally anyone would be, of doing this stupid raid again and just quit the game for good.

And this happened more and more down the line. Eventually in Mists of Pandaria expansion they introduced LFR which was a joke of a mode where you can just die and afk for each boss at will and come out with the kill no questions asked, and that ruined even more of the incentive to do raiding. Now imagine, in wow right now you have 4 difficulties of raiding, and you need a certain ilvl to progress. When you finally reach Mythic raiding you've already beaten normal and heroic twice, you have good gear, and realistically you could just do Mythic+ dungeons for armor or just raid on Mythic like a full time job. By the time you've reached Mythic raiding you're super exhausted from doing the raid as a whole and just leave the game. Mythic raiding as a whole is an expensive frustration-ride and is the actual real boss that you don't fight in LFR, normal, and heroic. This means you've been fighting fake bosses for the last two weeks only to fight the real one and wipe 50+ times for 1 kill. You also have to work your butt off to get the potions of unbridled fury. And Blizzard did this deliberately for profits to keep the player running on the hamster wheel and I will tell you that collectively, WoW is just not fun. Don't get me wrong the Raids are fun it's raiding that's not fun.

In contrast in Guild Wars 2 you get the real boss no questions asked and there is no line to cross to get into it other than being able to dodge roll out of orange circles and using the right builds. Knowing mechanics helps and so on. And you don't even need to look up guides that much, as guilds will go out of their way to train you if you're serious. In wow my first experience with LFR literally sucked out my soul from my body into a vortex, because here I thought I was going to get a challenge that I go through with friends I'll make in group finder and I barely pressed a button to kill the boss, I literally ran around like an idiot swinging my sword and the boss died like nothing in less than 5 minutes. At the end I asked, "That's it?" And literally just felt robbed out of fun.

I use raiding as an example because raiding as the community calls it is not a for profit game mode. But realistically speaking it could be any aspect of the game even WvW. If they start abusing the player for money more it just ruins the quality of the game. If anything, many raiders would agree that raids are incredibly accessible and that anyone and I mean anyone can have access to raiding, you just have too have a positive mental attitude and a willingness to succeed. There's no reason to slash off raiding simply because you can't do it, and then mask off the negativity as content you need ANET to monetize in order to do. Don't destroy the quality of something you have that you've never used in a product. If I have a product and this product has many different features that I never use, but could be of great value to me, it would be my fault for not reaping the benefits of the features not the designer of the product. Likewise like an instruction manual, the ANET guides for raiding on the wiki are pretty good, you don't need Snowcrows builds and all of that nonsense to be successful even though it's the norm (here's the guide from ANET https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spirit_Vale ). I would add pictures personally but they spare you from that so you experience the fun not watch it.

Note that through cause and effect, ANET makes the game easy because some stupid numbers are telling them to, then players who play everything easy will dominate the game. That actually reduces the quality of your MMORPG. Skins and visuals would effectively be the only good thing about the game, and that will wear off quickly it's why so much of the initial launch population left, literally no investment in anything fun, and everyone was just grinding for that shiny skin. And that alone is unorthodox and really mundane. You'd see the Aerodome empty and no real reason of doing raids to begin with as a group just solo it. Just do the raid solo...the most paradoxical statement on the planet.

While I use WoW as an example a video Asmongold (the most popular WoW Twitch streamer) reacted to a Game Dev of the original Vanilla WoW's comments who explains exactly what I mean:

Profits does not mean fun it simply means profits. It's as Kevin Jordan calls it:
"Analytics defining fun you know, you don't sound like a game designer you sound like a ... computer, that's trying to evolve into a sentient AI that's trying to determine an emotional quality based on data."

As I've mentioned earlier, the only thing gating players from raiding is literally a mindset, and nothing else. Anything in this game that's gated by anything whether it be getting a legendary or anything in particular, is all only gated in the mindset of the player. Quite literally I saw a post from someone who decided to take that leap and actually push himself to have fun raiding! That felt so amazing to read about his account only proves that it's just the mindset. With that being said, I hope ANET doesn't use analytics to say what's fun. Nobody told Nintendo how to make Super Mario fun, Super Mario is fun because it is challenging!

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Comments

  • Hashberry.4510Hashberry.4510 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Raiding was always a mess in WoW, guilds would routinely meltdown and shatter when new content came along. Perhaps these game modes just don't stay 'fun' long enough; the lure of new shinies plus getting sick of your current raiding community translates to less fun.

    I dunno, I enjoyed raids back in my time but was clearly an activity that would go off the rails fast. I doubt Anet should expect more of their player base to enjoy them. Sure, it would be nice to support raiders more, but I don't see it paying off.

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 21, 2020

    The main misconception that MMO devs typically have, is that they think making things more accessible (Which typically means "Make them braindead easy"...) garners a healthier playerbase.

    However, it tends to only seek to alienate people who like to have engaging content, while it simultaneously causes the players who don't want to put in any effort at all to figure out how to play the game just put in even less effort because nothing they're doing actually promotes them to do more.

    It has been a core problem with WoW since WotLK added in the LFD tool and started the slope of enabling lazy casuals, starting with dungeons being nerfed because "They're too hard" until every new dungeon is released as a faceroll. This then lead into the LFR tool at the end of Cataclysm, but again, "Too hard nerf plx" until LFR content was so easy you had to actively have the entire raid TRY and fail... Then we started getting easier Normal modes, Heroic modes and eventually by WoD, Normal mode was about as difficult as Cataclysm's LFR and it's been the same since...

    If anything, MMO's need to start going the other way with things and making general content more challenging to try and illicit a response from players to actually bother to play the game.

    Gamers aren't allergic to difficult games. The popularity of Dark Souls and thus the rise of the "Souls-like" genre says much about how people (Even disabled people, as noted with Sekiro when Journalists tried to be woke and talk about how the game was too hard for disabled people which miffed off tons of disabled people who loved the game)

    Of course, things don't have to be too challenging, since a common argument is that people play video games to relax after work. But the constant diminishing of need to actually engage with the game is not healthy for population.

    Meanwhile, when focusing on making things "More accessible", it should be just that. More tools to find groups, more places to practice content to get relevant experience before jumping into your first ever raid (Which would be possible by making raid-esk difficulty content in other areas of the game, so that it's not such a leap from non-raiding into raiding), more ways to check personal performance etc.

    Cat: Meow.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 21, 2020

    I'm not going to get into any details or join this discussion, but I am going to link to the original video Asmongold is actually reacting to:

    on Kevin Jordan's Youtube channel (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs2ibGVoXSsoqcbv-VKel_A)

    In general, it is always best to use original sources and not reaction videos. The video is worth a watch and sheds an interesting light and perspective on different issues MMOs and games face.

  • keenedge.9675keenedge.9675 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 21, 2020

    If you want harder content, gw2 is not the place to look. You're just banging your head against the wall.

    My son played for about 6 months and then quit because he said it was too easy. He won't even come back. There are many flavors of games. The Guild Wars 2 flavor might not be for you, but many are VERY happy.

    BTW, the OP desperately needs a 'TLDR'
    (also, Super Mario is not fun it's a platformer. I was cured of those back with Donkey Kong)

    Moral Statute Machine: John Spartan, you are fined five credits for repeated violations of the verbal morality statute.

  • Seera.5916Seera.5916 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

    @Seera.5916 said:

    An MMO aimed for the lower skilled players does not mean that the MMO is bad quality. It's just not designed for players looking for a challenge.

    >

    Except, that is never how GW2 was marketed in the first place. Yes, it was marketed to people who game more casually than others, but it was never marketed only to them. From the start they've told us that the game would have both easy and challenging content. In fact, at the start of the game dungeons were that challenging content, because they were a lot harder than they are now. Fractals of the Mists, back when it only went so far as level 50, was a lot harder than Fractals are now. Level 50 then was harder than level 100 now. This is what people always seem to forget when they talk about the demographic the game is aiming for. GW2 has, and was always supposed to have, both easy and challenging content. I truly believe that people complaining content is too difficult (except for people with disabilities) are the kind of people who just flat out refuse to improve and want everything handed to them as easy to swallow bits. Either that, or they have the wrong expectations based on faulty data.

    I never said that GW2 was. I was just countering what the OP said. That aiming an MMO at the lower skilled playerbase creates a bad quality MMO. Hence me saying MMO and not GW2.

  • @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

    @Seera.5916 said:

    An MMO aimed for the lower skilled players does not mean that the MMO is bad quality. It's just not designed for players looking for a challenge.

    >

    Except, that is never how GW2 was marketed in the first place. Yes, it was marketed to people who game more casually than others, but it was never marketed only to them. From the start they've told us that the game would have both easy and challenging content. In fact, at the start of the game dungeons were that challenging content, because they were a lot harder than they are now. Fractals of the Mists, back when it only went so far as level 50, was a lot harder than Fractals are now. Level 50 then was harder than level 100 now. This is what people always seem to forget when they talk about the demographic the game is aiming for. GW2 has, and was always supposed to have, both easy and challenging content. I truly believe that people complaining content is too difficult (except for people with disabilities) are the kind of people who just flat out refuse to improve and want everything handed to them as easy to swallow bits. Either that, or they have the wrong expectations based on faulty data.

    People aren't complain its too difficult, it's the style and nature of gsmeplay that does not fit into casual gameplay, I. E play the build you want, and not have to play the min max rotation game while jumping in and out of circles.
    And watching dmg meters. Casual players don't want raids in its current format that's targeted at a niche.

    Except that's exactly the reason why some people cry it's too difficult, because they don't want to put in the work. ANet designed this game with skills that interact with each other, not just your own skills but also skills between players. That's a large part of what makes a rotation. What's the use of putting in a skill mechanic if you're not going to create content that is designed to make the best of that mechanic? With jumping in and out of circles I assume you mean the enemies' aoe's? They are everywhere in the game, including open world. So at the least people shouldn't be unfamiliar with that mechanic and at best they know how to deal with it.

    And by the way, if you know the mechanics of every boss you don't need to do a meta rotation to kill the boss. You don't even need ascended gear. But you won't get there by just auto-attacking either. There's open world for that. Instanced content in GW2 has always been of a higher challenge than open world content. It's been that way since the release of the game, with dungeons. The people that lamented the difficulty of dungeons back then are the same (kind of) people who complain about Fractals and Raids these days. But it's always been a part of the game. And yes, they do complain it's too difficult. This forum is riddled with threads saying just that.

  • @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    An analogy

    There's a party with 100 people at it, 90 like pop music, 10 like heavy metal. The dj plays heavy metal, and the 10 heavy metal fans think those other 90 will learn to like heavy metal if they just keep enduring it. They don't, because people know what they like. They leave the party and wish there was a party with pop music near by.

    In my experience you'll always find a few people among those 90 pop music fans that appreciate heavy metal as well. This coming from a lifelong metalhead who also happens to like quite a bit of pop music. Your analogy is under the presumption that the 2 are mutually exclusive, but they're not.

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2020

    @Zephire.8049 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    As I've mentioned earlier, the only thing gating players from raiding is literally a mindset, and nothing else.

    So it's okay to force people into doing something they don't like or have no interest in doing because that matches up with what you think is the "correct mindest" while you're arguing against Arenanet and others for essentially asking you to not focus so much on raiding AKA changing how you view raids in GW2?

    Not everyone likes raiding. Analytics are helpful in determining which areas for a company to focus on. Just because some companies misread or skew analytics to say what they want doesn't mean analytics are bad and no one should use them—they're a tool, nothing more. In the case of GW2, raiding was never a part of the original plan and in its heyday it was still a minority of raiders who raided, a number that has steadily dropped from wings 5-7.

    If <5% of players are participating in content that can take 50%+ of the PvE resources, that's not fair to the other 95% of people. Not everything has to have raiding. Not everyone has to raid. Not Everyone likes to raid. There are other MMOs with raiding out there if that's what you want, don't demand GW2 and GW2 players change just so your personal tastes can be catered to.

    Also, raiding in GW2 is not accessible.

    • No automatic LFG tool <-This is bad, this is LFR, LFR is awful because you aren't building for success, you need healers, and a tank, if you go without either you're going to die.
    • Complicated encounters that need research <-All raiders in any raid in any adventure, even in movies, go in with a plan
    • High skill floor for everyone in a raid <- I'm not skilled, and I managed to get Deimos and Statues of Grenth without researching them
    • The only DPS tester is in an obscure room <-What is this? You mean the Special Forces Training Area?
    • No official mods <- You don't need any
    • One unofficial DPS metre that can be confusing for people to install and crash their game <-It's not confusing the instructions are clear and I personally don't even use it, and realistically nobody really needs it.
    • Groups willing to take new(ish) players are few and far between <-There are a lot you just haven't looked, or even bothered looking
    • Having to search for training groups outside of the game <-You don't need to search outside of the game read my previous bullet
    • Said training groups often fill up fast the moment they announce a run <-Then be one of the first people?
    • Common cheese/speed-run strategies that confuse people because they intentionally ignore mechanics <-This only applies to Gorseval and the idea is simply to phase him before he blows you up.

    Other MMOs you can hop into a raid fairly easily from my experience. GW2 requires effort, time, gold, and willing to spend multiple hours trying to find a group. That's not even going into how toxic raiders are and what people are expected to listen to over voice chat. Throw in how many bosses have a mechanic that wipes the group if even 1 person doesn't play perfectly and it's just not fun for a lot of people and those people aren't wrong for not liking it and they don't need "convincing" for them to like it.

    I'm not arguing against ArenaNET, I'm actually quite literally on their side!

    Raiding in GW2 is absolutely accessible. This is coming from someone who literally pug killed his first bosses. I went ahead and countered each of your points in the post itself. And you're wrong, in other MMOs you cannot hop into raids easily in WoW you need achievements and IO scores and you need to PM group leaders what your experience is, in ESO you need an actual guild and extremely over the top specific meta builds, and overall you need to socialize with group leaders to get inside while in this one all you need is a slice of pizza and some Bosco sticks (just click one button and you're in the group). GW2 does not require gold for raiding and you don't need expensive potions or an extensive amount of farming; you don't even need ascended armor, weapons, or specific builds, and you don't even really have to socialize much at all; I don't even speak with my guild members while raiding. Most raiders aren't toxic either and those that are leave the groups almost immediately after a single wipe (so technically the problem removes itself), many people just want you to cooperate for success.

    Just yesterday I killed keep construct for the first time, when I joined the group the literal first thing I said was "1 sec I think I have my Xera mini here somewhere" and literally the leader said "just come". I looked up this video to learn it just before joining them

    And we managed to 1 shot it. I managed to do the same again the same day with a different group, like really none of this is hard. It truly is all in the mindset of the player.

    One other thing is I'm almost done with my Experimental Envoy collection, I only need the spirit strings which I can get next week. I also only have 70 LI. If anything that's all I've ever gotten in the span of 1.5 years. I really don't even raid that much. You can trust me, I'm literally experience incarnate. Regardless raiding isn't the topic of my OP, it's just a factor that ties into the topic that I use. WvW is another aspect and so is PvP and everything else. ANET shouldn't have to cater their game to players on the basis of data telling people what's fun. If anything I'd eliminate the community of players pushing for them to use data to determine whats fun and replace that same community with players who want to have fun the way ANET intends it, not how their numbers ans statistics say they should; simply cater a different audience with a more positive outlook instead of a negative one, it makes the game healthier less full of complaints about the game. Numbers != fun != game design.

    See it any way you'd like, the fact still remains that pretty much my entire Envoy 1 collection has been the result of pugging my way through raiding. I can barely make my guild's static group. When you really understand how the game works, it rewards you back handsomely, it also as a result becomes a lot more fun to play. Also I'm not saying people have to like it either, nobody, after all, can force anyone to do anything in game, unless that someone allows others to do so; in this case a lot of the people who want to raid and don't, simply don't because others tell them not to, or that they can't, or they tell themselves they cant.

    If you'd allow it, I'd like to take you into my guild and show you what it's actually like. The offer stands for anyone in this thread really, my guild is always looking for people to train and cultivate into a static group.

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    My problem with raid are these 2.

    1. Li tresholds.

    Everything under 100 Li is basically like having 0 Li.
    Meaning that you have to join 100 low Li/ training runs before you even can get a decent group.

    The next treshold is 250 Li.

    Thats 250 Boss Kills before it feels like you actually start raiding.

    Its like a gear requirement but worse.

    1. There isnt even a reason to raid.

    Skins and AP are the only rewards thats are maybe interesting. Legendary Armor and Ring are easier to get from WvW.

    Now you must ask yourself. Are 250 boss kills worth the time investment only to get a single skin you like or maybe the few AP from some boss kills you need 250 Li for?

    TLDR: It takes way to long to get into "real" raiding for little to no reward worth the time effort.

    I actually make a lot of money from Raiding, in one wing I get ascended mats which I use to craft ascended stuff I end up selling. It's how I've made most of my gold. Also I'm almost done with my Envoy 1 collection and I only have 70 Li to this date. About half of my collection is training runs. I don't even have a static group.

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    There's a lot I disagree with in your post. You seem to be laboring under the assumption that harder content is more fun content, which is true for a percentage of the people but not true for all people. You're laboring under the assumption that people don't raid because they're some how incapable of raiding. You're laboring under the assumption that a guy that does hard content a lot of times is more valuable than more people who do content fewer times. There's a lot of assumptions in your posts.

    Analaytics need to be part of the decision making process, but they perhaps shouldn't be the entire decision making process.

    I'm not harboring any of those assumptions. I never implied said assumptions on my post. Also it sounds like you are harboring those assumptions.

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

    @Seera.5916 said:

    An MMO aimed for the lower skilled players does not mean that the MMO is bad quality. It's just not designed for players looking for a challenge.

    >

    Except, that is never how GW2 was marketed in the first place. Yes, it was marketed to people who game more casually than others, but it was never marketed only to them. From the start they've told us that the game would have both easy and challenging content. In fact, at the start of the game dungeons were that challenging content, because they were a lot harder than they are now. Fractals of the Mists, back when it only went so far as level 50, was a lot harder than Fractals are now. Level 50 then was harder than level 100 now. This is what people always seem to forget when they talk about the demographic the game is aiming for. GW2 has, and was always supposed to have, both easy and challenging content. I truly believe that people complaining content is too difficult (except for people with disabilities) are the kind of people who just flat out refuse to improve and want everything handed to them as easy to swallow bits. Either that, or they have the wrong expectations based on faulty data.

    People aren't complain its too difficult, it's the style and nature of gsmeplay that does not fit into casual gameplay, I. E play the build you want, and not have to play the min max rotation game while jumping in and out of circles.
    And watching dmg meters. Casual players don't want raids in its current format that's targeted at a niche.

    Can always break the cycle by starting your own group that defies said niche, also there's no such thing as casual players, just players nothing more. What's preventing you from taking action to get what you want? ;)

    @Westenev.5289 said:
    I'm gated from raids due to my timezone, which includes ping and time issues.

    I lack interest in raids because I can't remember the 50-90 or so button presses in some "optimal" rotations, and a lack a sense of personal agency durring the raid. Even if we win, I can't say I had fun doing so.

    I show my lack of interest by not visiting raids, hoping that if enough people do the same, Anet will focus on other projects. So, I for one hope Anet follows the analytics if strikes fail to create new raiders.

    And I'm somehow the toxic one? I don't even use a rotation I just understand the game, for example as a berserker warrior all you need to focus on to optimize damage is just find every way to trigger decapitate or eviscerate (forgot what it's called) and you can proc that easily using stuff and so on I don't use any order. On my Guardian I try to make sure my f1 tether on dragon hunter is up and that all my traps are placed. My focus 5 is always used when its up, and make sure my sword 2 and my greatsword 4 are together in the same place before doing a spin to win greatsword 2. No rotation needed.

    @Taril.8619 said:
    The main misconception that MMO devs typically have, is that they think making things more accessible (Which typically means "Make them braindead easy"...) garners a healthier playerbase.

    However, it tends to only seek to alienate people who like to have engaging content, while it simultaneously causes the players who don't want to put in any effort at all to figure out how to play the game just put in even less effort because nothing they're doing actually promotes them to do more.

    It has been a core problem with WoW since WotLK added in the LFD tool and started the slope of enabling lazy casuals, starting with dungeons being nerfed because "They're too hard" until every new dungeon is released as a faceroll. This then lead into the LFR tool at the end of Cataclysm, but again, "Too hard nerf plx" until LFR content was so easy you had to actively have the entire raid TRY and fail... Then we started getting easier Normal modes, Heroic modes and eventually by WoD, Normal mode was about as difficult as Cataclysm's LFR and it's been the same since...

    If anything, MMO's need to start going the other way with things and making general content more challenging to try and illicit a response from players to actually bother to play the game.

    Gamers aren't allergic to difficult games. The popularity of Dark Souls and thus the rise of the "Souls-like" genre says much about how people (Even disabled people, as noted with Sekiro when Journalists tried to be woke and talk about how the game was too hard for disabled people which miffed off tons of disabled people who loved the game)

    Of course, things don't have to be too challenging, since a common argument is that people play video games to relax after work. But the constant diminishing of need to actually engage with the game is not healthy for population.

    Meanwhile, when focusing on making things "More accessible", it should be just that. More tools to find groups, more places to practice content to get relevant experience before jumping into your first ever raid (Which would be possible by making raid-esk difficulty content in other areas of the game, so that it's not such a leap from non-raiding into raiding), more ways to check personal performance etc.

    You're right and that's what game development goals should be about (not money and profiteering), an MMO becomes the the audience it cultivates, if you cultivate a negative audience, like the majority of this thread, your game becomes full of that audience. It doesn't have to be ultra hard like Super Meat Boy, but something like dark souls, which a major popular title a lot of people play. A talented artist doesn't ever think about what elements of its creation makes the most money, they just look at the value from every thought into the complexity of their work and how people will take it all in. No movie producer has ever said "This part of my movie is going to make x dollars."

    People who play CS:GO don't play for the skins of their guns you know? People who play getting over it don't play for the graphics, people who play chess don't play for the way the pieces of the game look.

    @Westenev.5289 said:

    @TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    An analogy

    There's a party with 100 people at it, 90 like pop music, 10 like heavy metal. The dj plays heavy metal, and the 10 heavy metal fans think those other 90 will learn to like heavy metal if they just keep enduring it. They don't, because people know what they like. They leave the party and wish there was a party with pop music near by.

    In my experience you'll always find a few people among those 90 pop music fans that appreciate heavy metal as well. This coming from a lifelong metalhead who also happens to like quite a bit of pop music. Your analogy is under the presumption that the 2 are mutually exclusive, but they're not.

    If we lumped in the people who like both metal and pop into the "likes metal" camp, I think the analogy would remain the same... this is why strikes were deemed necessary in the first place.

    Strikes aren't necessary, they literally achieved the opposite of what they were intended for. How many people do you know have actually advanced from strikes to raids? I haven't met anyone who has.

    @thepenmonster.3621 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    As I've mentioned earlier, the only thing gating players from raiding is literally a mindset, and nothing else.

    The mods will probably delete this viewpoint for spurious reasons again, but the reason people don't raid/strike/play PvP/ etc... is because the people who love those modes have a reputation of being the sort of folks you don't want to spend your game time with.

    It's unfair and most assuredly a hashtag;notallraiders type of deal but it's true and folks need to stop ignoring it. Anyone who truly wants more people doing the underplayed gamemodes needs to go on a PR offensive to prove that the reputation is untrue. The devs and community managers especially.

    I don't think they will I'm not personally attacking anyone and I'm making sure not to mark anyone off with offensive responses. Also I don't think you've actually spoken to anyone who love those modes. Ask your guild you'll actually find people who do love those modes.

    @Westenev.5289 said:

    @TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    An analogy

    There's a party with 100 people at it, 90 like pop music, 10 like heavy metal. The dj plays heavy metal, and the 10 heavy metal fans think those other 90 will learn to like heavy metal if they just keep enduring it. They don't, because people know what they like. They leave the party and wish there was a party with pop music near by.

    In my experience you'll always find a few people among those 90 pop music fans that appreciate heavy metal as well. This coming from a lifelong metalhead who also happens to like quite a bit of pop music. Your analogy is under the presumption that the 2 are mutually exclusive, but they're not.

    If we lumped in the people who like both metal and pop into the "likes metal" camp, I think the analogy would remain the same... this is why strikes were deemed necessary in the first place.

    I like a lot of metal Genres, I also love synthwave like Mega Drive, lofi hip hop, epic orchestral music, and some rap. What camp do I belong in?

    @keenedge.9675 said:
    If you want harder content, gw2 is not the place to look. You're just banging your head against the wall.

    My son played for about 6 months and then quit because he said it was too easy. He won't even come back. There are many flavors of games. The Guild Wars 2 flavor might not be for you, but many are VERY happy.

    BTW, the OP desperately needs a 'TLDR'
    (also, Super Mario is not fun it's a platformer. I was cured of those back with Donkey Kong)

    You did not just shrug off Super Mario as not FUN! My GOD! xD
    That being said I have questions as to what your son did in game because the personal story is really easy, did he do fractals? Did he PvP, WvW, or raid? Like try the harder stuff?

    @Hashberry.4510 said:
    Well, folks that use terms like 'lazy casuals' are part of the problem. I sure don't want to spend any time with that stuff.

    Well the people who created the term casuals are responsible for creating that problem to begin with (raiders never refer to anyone as a casual ever in game). In fact I've never even seen anyone refer to anyone as a casual in the game ever and I think that's a good thing.

    @AgentMoore.9453 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    Raiding is not the factor that creates this division either, the reality is that players are not even trying at all to adjust, understand, or develop skill

    Being able to digest carrots doesn't mean you enjoy eating carrots.

    Not liking them does not mean you:

    • aren't a skilled chewer
    • don't realize the nutritional value of carrots
    • don't acknowledge that some people love them
    • wish to ban carrots from the market.

    Some people have tried carrots and tried them in a number of different ways and decided, ultimately that they don't like the taste or the feel or the smell of them. They aren't picky eaters - they know what they like. They're interested in supporting their local grocer, but can't stomach what's being sold.

    If they suggest an alternative vegetable be added to the market that is similar to carrots, but more palatable to them, and you tell them they're unwilling to develop an acquired taste or not smart enough to appreciate carrots as they are, you have the exact situation GW2's raids have:

    People have tried them, people have learned them, and they've still determined they don't like them and either prefer not to play them at all, or would be willing to play them at reduced levels of difficulty. Reduced difficulty raids with reduced rewards. Hard mode and big payoff for those who like carrots, and easy mode with long-term reward goals for those who prefer baby carrots.

    The reality is that both styles of play are equally valid and both should be taken care of when it comes to secondary game modes, particularly if ArenaNet wants them to be popular and profitable.

    If they eat a lot of junk food they become fat and can develop heart disease, diabetes, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, and die sooner. A lot of the times they will struggle to do physically demanding tasks. Also once again I only used raiding as an example my post isn't as a whole about raiding.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @thepenmonster.3621 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    As I've mentioned earlier, the only thing gating players from raiding is literally a mindset, and nothing else.

    The mods will probably delete this viewpoint for spurious reasons again, but the reason people don't raid/strike/play PvP/ etc... is because the people who love those modes have a reputation of being the sort of folks you don't want to spend your game time with.

    It's unfair and most assuredly a hashtag;notallraiders type of deal but it's true and folks need to stop ignoring it. Anyone who truly wants more people doing the underplayed gamemodes needs to go on a PR offensive to prove that the reputation is untrue. The devs and community managers especially.

    I had the opposite experience its the people coming into experienced groups hiding behind fake kill proofs or starting groups with 3-4 times the kp requirement then they have hopeing for a clean run thats the problem

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2020

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @thepenmonster.3621 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    As I've mentioned earlier, the only thing gating players from raiding is literally a mindset, and nothing else.

    The mods will probably delete this viewpoint for spurious reasons again, but the reason people don't raid/strike/play PvP/ etc... is because the people who love those modes have a reputation of being the sort of folks you don't want to spend your game time with.

    It's unfair and most assuredly a hashtag;notallraiders type of deal but it's true and folks need to stop ignoring it. Anyone who truly wants more people doing the underplayed gamemodes needs to go on a PR offensive to prove that the reputation is untrue. The devs and community managers especially.

    I had the opposite experience its the people coming into experienced groups hiding behind fake kill proofs or starting groups with 3-4 times the kp requirement then they have hopeing for a clean run thats the problem

    I mentioned the unnatural kp requirement somewhere else those groups are the worst, they never find a soul to group with and the more they require the harder they fail. "I need a quickbrand a healbrand a condi scourge 2 boon chronos 1 condi BS " etc etc. Waaay over the top and never get anything done.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I'm not going to get into any details or join this discussion, but I am going to link to the original video Asmongold is actually reacting to:

    on Kevin Jordan's Youtube channel (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs2ibGVoXSsoqcbv-VKel_A)

    In general, it is always best to use original sources and not reaction videos. The video is worth a watch and sheds an interesting light and perspective on different issues MMOs and games face.

    +1

    Thank You! Cyninja for posting the original source video

    'Situations that are present are there because you allow and tolerate them to continue'

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2020

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

    @Seera.5916 said:

    An MMO aimed for the lower skilled players does not mean that the MMO is bad quality. It's just not designed for players looking for a challenge.

    >

    Except, that is never how GW2 was marketed in the first place. Yes, it was marketed to people who game more casually than others, but it was never marketed only to them. From the start they've told us that the game would have both easy and challenging content. In fact, at the start of the game dungeons were that challenging content, because they were a lot harder than they are now. Fractals of the Mists, back when it only went so far as level 50, was a lot harder than Fractals are now. Level 50 then was harder than level 100 now. This is what people always seem to forget when they talk about the demographic the game is aiming for. GW2 has, and was always supposed to have, both easy and challenging content. I truly believe that people complaining content is too difficult (except for people with disabilities) are the kind of people who just flat out refuse to improve and want everything handed to them as easy to swallow bits. Either that, or they have the wrong expectations based on faulty data.

    People aren't complain its too difficult, it's the style and nature of gsmeplay that does not fit into casual gameplay, I. E play the build you want, and not have to play the min max rotation game while jumping in and out of circles.
    And watching dmg meters. Casual players don't want raids in its current format that's targeted at a niche.

    Except that's exactly the reason why some people cry it's too difficult, because they don't want to put in the work. ANet designed this game with skills that interact with each other, not just your own skills but also skills between players. That's a large part of what makes a rotation. What's the use of putting in a skill mechanic if you're not going to create content that is designed to make the best of that mechanic? With jumping in and out of circles I assume you mean the enemies' aoe's? They are everywhere in the game, including open world. So at the least people shouldn't be unfamiliar with that mechanic and at best they know how to deal with it.

    And by the way, if you know the mechanics of every boss you don't need to do a meta rotation to kill the boss. You don't even need ascended gear. But you won't get there by just auto-attacking either. There's open world for that. Instanced content in GW2 has always been of a higher challenge than open world content. It's been that way since the release of the game, with dungeons. The people that lamented the difficulty of dungeons back then are the same (kind of) people who complain about Fractals and Raids these days. But it's always been a part of the game. And yes, they do complain it's too difficult. This forum is riddled with threads saying just that.

    Yes people don't want to put in the 'work'. That's the whole point, your elitist 'crying' comment is irrelevant, no one is crying about current raids because they don't care about it, it's for you not them, and they want you to enjoy it. What casual players want is casual 10 man content. Same principle as fractals.hard modes for the niche, and easier modes for the majority of the player base.

    Put it this way. 3 ootions:

    1. Raids are tuned for casual play - 5-10% of player base not interested.

    2. No casual mode raids, 90% of player base not satisfied.

    3. Or have both.

    1 is unfair on raiders. 2 is failing the player base, 3 is obviously the solution.

    Except that 90% of the playerbase is satisfied with the current state of the game. :smile:
    So.... keep making raids as is and leave the "casual" playerbase to do what they love doing it's already winning!

  • Luthan.5236Luthan.5236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Soo ... a good compromise would be to not make the raids easier. (People that raid and want them to be hard can't complain then.) But also not making any more raids. (If many people don't want raids because they are too hard for them make other content.)

    Companies try to maximize their profit. Big profit here comes from people buying expansions and the gems with real money. Doing hard content and attracting players that like raiding and such stuff would automatically put GW2 into competition with similar games where raiding (also gear treadmill is some stuff commonly done and liked by certain people) is a big thing.

    Attracting differen customers can be interesting on it's own. They might get less people by NOT going for raids. But people the'll have safe as hardcore fans forever. Might be "cheaper" to satisfy their needs than trying to satisfy the "I need a new hardcore raid very 1-2 weeks" customer that wants hardcore stuff and grinds it over and over to finish all associated achievements pretty quickly after release - then complaining cause there isn't any new content.

    To me GW2 seems a game that attracts an older playerbase and wants to be intersting for "everyone". Story and stuff are a good thing. We also have JPs as unique stuff not available in many other MMORPG. Then we have every now and then the players that also finish the Living World stuff pretty fast. Still ArenaNet isn't rushing the content cause of some people posting in the forums and complaining. On the other hand other people mention doing stuff slowly and still having fun. (There is also stuff like PvP for permanent fun where you aren't aiming to "finish" it.)

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2020

    @Luthan.5236 said:
    Soo ... a good compromise would be to not make the raids easier. (People that raid and want them to be hard can't complain then.) But also not making any more raids. (If many people don't want raids because they are too hard for them make other content.)

    Companies try to maximize their profit. Big profit here comes from people buying expansions and the gems with real money. Doing hard content and attracting players that like raiding and such stuff would automatically put GW2 into competition with similar games where raiding (also gear treadmill is some stuff commonly done and liked by certain people) is a big thing.

    Attracting differen customers can be interesting on it's own. They might get less people by NOT going for raids. But people the'll have safe as hardcore fans forever. Might be "cheaper" to satisfy their needs than trying to satisfy the "I need a new hardcore raid very 1-2 weeks" customer that wants hardcore stuff and grinds it over and over to finish all associated achievements pretty quickly after release - then complaining cause there isn't any new content.

    To me GW2 seems a game that attracts an older playerbase and wants to be intersting for "everyone". Story and stuff are a good thing. We also have JPs as unique stuff not available in many other MMORPG. Then we have every now and then the players that also finish the Living World stuff pretty fast. Still ArenaNet isn't rushing the content cause of some people posting in the forums and complaining. On the other hand other people mention doing stuff slowly and still having fun. (There is also stuff like PvP for permanent fun where you aren't aiming to "finish" it.)

    There's no reason at all that's healthy or good for removing raiding from development. That is a bad compromise.

    (If many people don't want raids because they are too hard for them make other content.) <-this is false

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2020

    @Luthan.5236 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @Luthan.5236 said:
    Soo ... a good compromise would be to not make the raids easier. (People that raid and want them to be hard can't complain then.) But also not making any more raids. (If many people don't want raids because they are too hard for them make other content.)

    Companies try to maximize their profit. Big profit here comes from people buying expansions and the gems with real money. Doing hard content and attracting players that like raiding and such stuff would automatically put GW2 into competition with similar games where raiding (also gear treadmill is some stuff commonly done and liked by certain people) is a big thing.

    Attracting differen customers can be interesting on it's own. They might get less people by NOT going for raids. But people the'll have safe as hardcore fans forever. Might be "cheaper" to satisfy their needs than trying to satisfy the "I need a new hardcore raid very 1-2 weeks" customer that wants hardcore stuff and grinds it over and over to finish all associated achievements pretty quickly after release - then complaining cause there isn't any new content.

    To me GW2 seems a game that attracts an older playerbase and wants to be intersting for "everyone". Story and stuff are a good thing. We also have JPs as unique stuff not available in many other MMORPG. Then we have every now and then the players that also finish the Living World stuff pretty fast. Still ArenaNet isn't rushing the content cause of some people posting in the forums and complaining. On the other hand other people mention doing stuff slowly and still having fun. (There is also stuff like PvP for permanent fun where you aren't aiming to "finish" it.)

    There's no reason at all that's healthy or good for removing raiding from development. That is a bad compromise.

    I disagree with your personal opinion.

    When literally the only thing that generates money for ANET is in the Gem store what the hell is slashing raiding going to do to benefit the company? If anything, keeping an aspect alive helps keep players playing, and if you remove one aspect where people leave that means less profit for ANET. As an FYI people who raid also pay for gems, and I've seen people spend hundreds on gems who raid so...disagree with me all you want, anything that makes players leave is bad. Also I'm pretty sure raiders are also hardcore fans. Nothing good comes from removing development in an area of the game; that's what happened with WvW and it went horribly horribly south!

  • Luthan.5236Luthan.5236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If you have let's say 10 hours of development time and spend 1 on raiding 9 on other content. And other content makes you much more money ... then why not spend the whole 10 hours on the other content?

    I'm not saying raiding doesn't make money. Same for JP. A lot of people like SAB and buy skins related to it and the infinite continue coin with gems. But there are a lot more other people willing to spend money because of other reasons ... then it might make more sense to develop stuff for them. (Unless the profit you could made from them is already maximized.)

    I'm sure ArenaNet has the data and as a company they are probably doing the stuff a company usually does. (Making profits like the owners expect it.) Strike missions for example with the public instance before the boss ... seem a good idea for content not too easy ... still interesting for the players that don't want to raid.

    So my guess is: Strike missions aren't made to get people into raiding (then later develop more raids) - they are in fact the thing replacing raids. (Developing strike missions instead of raids.)

    How many dungeons did they make in the last years after fractals got released? Have there been a lot of new fractals afer they introduced raids?
    From what I have seen ... at lest for fractals they still added new ones - according to this list sorted by release date: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractals_of_the_Mists
    (The list down on the page there.)

    Still compared to the total amount a lot of them have been implemented 2012/13 and much less of them later. (And afaik they are not that big.)

    It might be that they never make new raids again or at a very slow release pace now that strike missions are the new thing. (Like a new raid every 2-3 years or with the upcoming expansion or so.)

    This can totally be enough considering there is tons of other stuff to do in the game..

  • Rasimir.6239Rasimir.6239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Taril.8619 said:
    Of course, things don't have to be too challenging, since a common argument is that people play video games to relax after work. But the constant diminishing of need to actually engage with the game is not healthy for population.

    How about engaging with the game not because of "need" but simply because of "fun"?

    To me that's what puts GW2 above its competitors: this game offers me a lot of different ways to have fun without forcing me to do any specific content. I don't need to play contend I don't enjoy just to be able to access content I do enjoy. I can pick and choose what to do purely on the base of what I enjoy.

    I can even choose the challenge level I feel like tackling. This game holds a lot of content I can tailor to my needs by imposing my own challenges. To take this into the realm of 10-man content, if what's there isn't enough for you, you can join public strikes and see how good you are at working with strangers who might have different knowledge, skill level, or even prefer different strategies to tackle the instance. Put up a raid lfg and learn to adjust your strategy to a mix of playstyles rather than being a one-trick pony that can only succeed in a pre-built setup that requires participantes to perform a preconceived ballet of fixed moves and rotations they have learned by heart. The real challenge this game offers is in cooperating with others and adjusting to different groups and setups, not learning just one meta choreography deemed by one of the prominent raid guilds to be the be-all and end-all of doing said content.

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2020

    @Luthan.5236 said:
    If you have let's say 10 hours of development time and spend 1 on raiding 9 on other content. And other content makes you much more money ... then why not spend the whole 10 hours on the other content?

    I'm not saying raiding doesn't make money. Same for JP. A lot of people like SAB and buy skins related to it and the infinite continue coin with gems. But there are a lot more other people willing to spend money because of other reasons ... then it might make more sense to develop stuff for them. (Unless the profit you could made from them is already maximized.)

    I'm sure ArenaNet has the data and as a company they are probably doing the stuff a company usually does. (Making profits like the owners expect it.) Strike missions for example with the public instance before the boss ... seem a good idea for content not too easy ... still interesting for the players that don't want to raid.

    So my guess is: Strike missions aren't made to get people into raiding (then later develop more raids) - they are in fact the thing replacing raids. (Developing strike missions instead of raids.)

    How many dungeons did they make in the last years after fractals got released? Have there been a lot of new fractals afer they introduced raids?
    From what I have seen ... at lest for fractals they still added new ones - according to this list sorted by release date: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractals_of_the_Mists
    (The list down on the page there.)

    Still compared to the total amount a lot of them have been implemented 2012/13 and much less of them later. (And afaik they are not that big.)

    It might be that they never make new raids again or at a very slow release pace now that strike missions are the new thing. (Like a new raid every 2-3 years or with the upcoming expansion or so.)

    This can totally be enough considering there is tons of other stuff to do in the game..

    You are literally saying that because raids don't make people pay for gems its content that needs to be removed. I could easily remove what you love to do in game for the same reason.

    Strike missions also are not replacing raids. Raids are almost 5x more rewarding, and much more worthwhile to do for legendary armors and now legendary trinkets.

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    When literally the only thing that generates money for ANET is in the Gem store what the hell is slashing raiding going to do to benefit the company?

    It could allow them to spend more resources on developing more stuff for the Gem store as well as more content for whatever audience is spending the most money on average on Gem store content.

    I.e. If your average non-raider spends more money on average in the Gem store than a raider, then producing content for non-raiders, to keep them playing and wanting to spend more money, is more profitable than producing content for raiders, to keep them playing and wanting to spend more money.

    It's not an ideal scenario to have to cut an area of content and thus lose a particular demographic. But there are points where if said demographic is not producing enough money to cover the costs of development (While making a profit, as that's important rather than just breaking even) then losing that demographic is financially the best call.

    Cat: Meow.

  • Luthan.5236Luthan.5236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I NEVER said anything about removing them. Just not developing them any further. The stuff already there of course can stay as it is - for people that have fun playing it. So it's stupit do say "i could remove stuff you like that already exists in the game cause you don't want them to develop more of the stuff I like".

    Would make more sense to say "they could stop adding new things of the stuff you like".

    But keep in mind that the game started out with a philosophy different from the other games that focus on raiding. It makes sense that with that philosophy a different customer base got attracted and that they develop for them. (Like ... WoW isn't going to introduce JPs just because someone from GW2 might like them and then might start to play WoW.)

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2020

    @Taril.8619 said:

    I.e. If your average non-raider spends more money on average in the Gem store than a raider, then producing content for non-raiders, to keep them playing and wanting to spend more money, is more profitable than producing content for raiders, to keep them playing and wanting to spend more money.

    Except you probably don't understand that raiders spend money on gems too. It's like you're pooling raiders as players who play something else when it's literally the same game. Were playing the same game we as a community as a whole have the same spending habits on average.

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2020

    @Luthan.5236 said:
    I NEVER said anything about removing them. Just not developing them any further. The stuff already there of course can stay as it is - for people that have fun playing it. So it's stupit do say "i could remove stuff you like that already exists in the game cause you don't want them to develop more of the stuff I like".

    Would make more sense to say "they could stop adding new things of the stuff you like".

    But keep in mind that the game started out with a philosophy different from the other games that focus on raiding. It makes sense that with that philosophy a different customer base got attracted and that they develop for them. (Like ... WoW isn't going to introduce JPs just because someone from GW2 might like them and then might start to play WoW.)

    YOUR philosophy leads to less players not more so nothing you're saying is actually making sense. Players leaving is not good for the game, removing players who think like you is actually good for the game though.

    Also removing development from raids is to literally remove them, bro that's not gonna happen. Get over yourself the game doesn't belong to players who refuse to try stuff.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2020

    @Taril.8619 said:
    I.e. If your average non-raider spends more money on average in the Gem store than a raider, then producing content for non-raiders, to keep them playing and wanting to spend more money, is more profitable than producing content for raiders, to keep them playing and wanting to spend more money.

    That's a gigantic "if" with no conclusive answer. There is very little correlation between content type and revenue/profit, but if you want to make one, take a look at the beginning of the Icebrood Saga and the few episodes before it, when the game had -exclusively- open world content. No Raids, no fractals, no PVP, no WVW, no other types of instanced content, no big world bosses. It was by far the weakest quarter in the game's history financially. If content type (the release of Raids) negatively affected profits, then surely having exclusively open world content would cause revenue to go up, but it went deep down instead.

  • Rasimir.6239Rasimir.6239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    Players leaving is not good for the game, removing players who think like you is actually good for the game though.

    Totally depends on the number of players in each group.

    There are scenarios when you have to make decisions that have some players leaving, no matter how you decide (or even if you don't decide at all). As hard as it is, sometimes trying to keep a certain player (or group of players) playing the game is more expensive than accepting the loss of said player(s).

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2020

    @Rasimir.6239 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    Players leaving is not good for the game, removing players who think like you is actually good for the game though.

    Totally depends on the number of players in each group.

    There are scenarios when you have to make decisions that have some players leaving, no matter how you decide (or even if you don't decide at all). As hard as it is, sometimes trying to keep a certain player (or group of players) playing the game is more expensive than accepting the loss of said player(s).

    So cut off all the raiders, cut off all the fractal lovers, cut off all the WvWers, cut off all the PvPers from hoping for new content to make cosmetics which just becomes some skin to a collection? That's a brilliant strategy for a well thought recipe that promotes failure!

    Anything that stifles development in a mode is effectively bad, for one thing I was disappointed that we didn't get a new open world map and instead got an instance last patch, just for the sake of strikes? Now there's a new element to focus on, so we have strikes, pvp, raids, open world, wvw, and fractals to focus on. WvW already attacked by a rocket launcher so...............

  • Luthan.5236Luthan.5236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2020

    Only ArenaNet has the relevant data. Just looking at some profit they made at the same time some season got released ... isn't itself enough information. There might be people that constantly want new expansions (and elite specs) and therefor have stopped by the time Icebrood got released. (Not because there are not any more raids.) Also when expansions get released they'll give them a huge boost on income cause they can only be bought with real money. (Not by trading gold into gems.)

    And they are of course taking this into account and lower profits on one quarter be because of stuff being paid to work on a later expansion. (Which they already promised.) Which doesn't give the income over linear over the time it is developed but after the development is finished when most people start rushing to buy it.

    Stuff like "the game doesn't belong to players who refuse to try stuff" is weird to say when no one claimed that. I only see an aggressive tone of someone that wants more raids because he personally likes them. Then explanations why to him personally raids are fun. It is okay. Others can read it and accept it. Maybe people will try raids because of it. Because they see other guys with low amount of raid experience managed to get into them.

    All fine until here.

    But it's up to ArenaNet how they make the game. If they decide to give it another try ... okay.
    If not ... then not.

    You can't force people to play more raids so it will get more attractive for ArenaNet to develop them. You can try to convince them. The post with your personal positive experiences might help here. What might help more would be a system in game to make raids accessible and fun. Personal experience and claining "it is just your mindset gating you from raids" doesn't help here.

    For me everything that has huge need for time is a big turnoff. I like short PvP matches that take max 15 minutes. Strike missions seem to be shorter as raids as well.

    So: Toxic players in raids and stuff ... and your personal positive experience: Yeah I might give it a try. Maybe there are a lot of nice players and not as toxic as usually people claim on the forums ... I'd try if it was possible to do a run in 30 minutes or so. (Haven't looked up the times. it usually takes.) Then it is even okay to fail lots of times. 1 hour might be the absoulte hard limit. I wouldn't play raids where it takes 1-2 hours or so. (I knew other MMO where for sure it takes that long. I don't know about GW2. I'm also avoiding stuff like LoL and other MOBA cause of the long match duration.)

    So how is it just the "mindset" when some people just have that much time to waste?
    I'm not against super hard bosses that require group mechanics. (In fact it is interesting.) Personally I find trash mobs that you need to kill to the boss (as time sink to make it not too fast) boring and annoying.

    Just for clarification to better interpret my post: I'm a player that never played dungeons, raids, strike missions. Except the wintersday strike mission. (I will definitely try the other ones when I caught up to Icebrood - I play stuff in release order atm at PoF story doing it slowly.) At wintersday I found the boss okay. The public instancing system was nice. But having to kill stuff until you get to the boss ... felt boring and grindy. (Even if it probably as short compared to raids.)

    And I play PvP a lot at low skill tier and I don't care about getting killed lot I have fun. For me it is not about difficulty. It is about fun and the time needed. (Considering that repeatedly having to to certain stuff is getting boring ... should take less time. Yet legendary stuff from raids will be a grind and raids will take more time then your usual other stuff in the game.)

  • Rasimir.6239Rasimir.6239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @Rasimir.6239 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    Players leaving is not good for the game, removing players who think like you is actually good for the game though.

    Totally depends on the number of players in each group.

    There are scenarios when you have to make decisions that have some players leaving, no matter how you decide (or even if you don't decide at all). As hard as it is, sometimes trying to keep a certain player (or group of players) playing the game is more expensive than accepting the loss of said player(s).

    So cut off all the raiders, cut off all the fractal lovers, cut off all the WvWers, cut off all the PvPers from hoping for new content to make cosmetics which just becomes some skin to a collection? That's a brilliant strategy for a well thought recipe that promotes failure!

    Anything that stifles development in a mode is effectively bad, for one thing I was disappointed that we didn't get a new open world map and instead got an instance last patch, just for the sake of strikes? Now there's a new element to focus on, so we have strikes, pvp, raids, open world, wvw, and fractals to focus on. WvW already attacked by a rocket launcher so...............

    Read what I wrote. It depends. It depends on a variety of factors.

    There are many shades of grey between black and white.

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @Taril.8619 said:

    I.e. If your average non-raider spends more money on average in the Gem store than a raider, then producing content for non-raiders, to keep them playing and wanting to spend more money, is more profitable than producing content for raiders, to keep them playing and wanting to spend more money.

    Except you probably don't understand that raiders spend money on gems too. It's like you're pooling raiders as players who play something else when it's literally the same game. Were playing the same game we as a community as a whole have the same spending habits on average.

    Except I literally stated that both players spend on gems.

    The difference was IF one group of players spends MORE than the other and specifically, if they spend on things directly related to the content (Since I'm sure Raiders play other areas of the game too in which they spend gems on)

    It's especially relevant when it has been mentioned that it's possible to earn a lot of gold from doing raids and crafting stuff to sell, given that gold can be turned into gems without ANET receiving a single cent. Which can lower the amount of profit made by developing raids.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Taril.8619 said:
    I.e. If your average non-raider spends more money on average in the Gem store than a raider, then producing content for non-raiders, to keep them playing and wanting to spend more money, is more profitable than producing content for raiders, to keep them playing and wanting to spend more money.

    That's a gigantic "if" with no conclusive answer. There is very little correlation between content type and revenue/profit, but if you want to make one, take a look at the beginning of the Icebrood Saga and the few episodes before it, when the game had -exclusively- open world content. No Raids, no fractals, no PVP, no WVW, no other types of instanced content, no big world bosses. It was by far the weakest quarter in the game's history financially. If content type (the release of Raids) negatively affected profits, then surely having exclusively open world content would cause revenue to go up, but it went deep down instead.

    I'm sure there is a correlation between content type and profit. Given that different content types attract different numbers of players. Also, different content types utilize different Gem store items. I.e. A person doing mainly PvP won't be buying your gem store exclusive Gathering Tools, World Boss teleporters etc.

    Also, just because -exclusively- open world content was not the most profitable period in the games history, it doesn't mean that all content is necessarily profitable.

    We can't know for sure exactly how much money is used to develop specific content such as Raids, nor can we know exactly how much profit they generate.

    Only ANET can know that and they can make decisions based on such data where if they feel a particular type of content is not profitable enough, for whatever reason, maybe it costs too much to develop, maybe not enough people that play it spend on Gems, maybe the average player of said content spends less Gems on average etc. Then they can decide that it is no longer financially worthwhile to continue making that specific type of content and instead shift resources to develop other content instead, this can be more content of another type that IS profitable, or it could be a new type of content entirely.

    If we take the fact that ANET have seemingly stopped releasing Raids and instead release Strikes, it's an indication that Raids were not profitable to continue making and Strikes are less resource intensive to create. However we can't know for sure unless we work there and can see the data they have.

    Cat: Meow.