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Analytics should not drive the direction of the game...

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  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Taril.8619 said:
    Given that different content types attract different numbers of players.

    Number of players is essential for a game that offers expansions or paid DLC. A game that focuses on micro transactions needs active players, players that actually play the game, not players that play once per month. The "number" of players that each content type attracts is highly irrelevant, because it's really hard to actually measure. How many players play "exclusively" one content type or another? Spending and activity is way more important than numbers.

    Also, although the starting Strike Missions were a meme joke, eventually they've come up with content that is harder/more demanding than some of the Raid encounter. A player that enjoys content like Whisper of Jormag or Boneskinner should have zero difficulty Raiding. Meaning, some of the Strikes attract the same audience as Raids, if the population that is interested into Raids is what led to their cancellation, then why does Boneskinner and Whisper of Jormag exist?

    If we take the fact that ANET have seemingly stopped releasing Raids and instead release Strikes, it's an indication that Raids were not profitable to continue making and Strikes are less resource intensive to create.

    They also stopped releasing dungeons, they stopped releasing guild missions, they stopped releasing fractals (although they are gonna be rebooted soon?), they stopped releasing big world bosses (Drakkar was released nearly 2 years after the last world boss, 20 months after Death-branded Shatterer and they are not even on the same level)
    Heck they haven't released a new expansion, or new elite specs, in 2+ years. Not releasing something doesn't necessarily have to do with profits

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Unfortunately players have been so conditioned by the metrics and profit driven skinner-box design where they easily press a lever on schedule when it lights up to get some meaningless reward (and buy something to look fancy while doing so), that by now they think they actually prefer it over memorable, engaging and genuinely fun experiences which offer opportunities to be challenged, to fail, to learn and to grow from.

    I appreciate the effort OP, but it's not going to be a popular opinion.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Game of Bones.8975Game of Bones.8975 Member ✭✭✭✭

    To refer to the OP, TL:DR. Sorry, for what I did read of it you seem to be passionate about the topic and for that I applaud you putting yourself out for criticism.

    As far as a game like GW2 not being run by analytics, I see there being several levels: the individual builds, the playing modes, and market research.

    The individual build analytics are kept in check by player feedback in what skills are used the most and how they are used. There are periodic patches to nerf and buff skills as the devs see fit. We may then have to change builds, skills, or skill rotations in order to compensate.

    Playing modes are looked at by the percentages of players (new, returning, and vets) playing PvE, WvW, Fractals, and Raids. If more people across the board are playing Raids, of course they will focus on that aspect of the game. Or they may try to get new players interested in Raids by rolling out new wings and bosses.

    Market Research covers the "what are other games doing." The gaming 'pie' is finite and if GW2 can take a larger slice from other games they will have the financial means to bring about new and more interesting content on a regular basis.

    Or I could be completely wrong.

    "That's what" -- She

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hashberry.4510 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    Unfortunately players have been so conditioned by the metrics and profit driven skinner-box design where they easily press a lever on schedule when it lights up to get some meaningless reward (and buy something to look fancy while doing so), that by now they think they actually prefer it over memorable, engaging and genuinely fun experiences which offer opportunities to be challenged, to fail, to learn and to grow from.

    I appreciate the effort OP, but it's not going to be a popular opinion.

    See, I don't want to be in the same instance with players that think of others this way.

    Use the block function in game and add a nickname so you know why and you wont have to.
    You can simply leave when you spot them in a group you join.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    Unfortunately players have been so conditioned by the metrics and profit driven skinner-box design where they easily press a lever on schedule when it lights up to get some meaningless reward (and buy something to look fancy while doing so), that by now they think they actually prefer it over memorable, engaging and genuinely fun experiences which offer opportunities to be challenged, to fail, to learn and to grow from.

    I appreciate the effort OP, but it's not going to be a popular opinion.

    To many people, the easy things are the "memorable, engaging and genuinely fun experiences".
    Not everyone wants to be challenged in their free time. Many people want to have fun and relax.
    Having to accumulate gear for Meta builds and learning strict rotations is bothersome and unfun for more people than those that enjoy it.

    I highly doubt anyone will still remember daily #564 they did running around alone in open world a few years ago.
    What stays are the moments of struggle, growth and genuine achievement, as well as the social connections people made, usually formed by overcoming something together.
    That doesn't mean there should not be relaxing and/or solo content, or not even that it shouldn't be the majority of play.
    If there is never any challenge or inconvenience whatsoever though, you might as well be just flipping lever for a reward.

    Also, gear comes really easily in this game once engaged with all the systems, it's just hard and can be overwhelming to take that first step into that. Additionally, the only place rotations are static are in practice at the golem/benchmarking, in actual fights you are better off adjusting them on a boss by boss and group by group basis.

    @Westenev.5289 said:
    I lack interest in raids because I can't remember the 50-90 or so button presses in some "optimal" rotations, and a lack a sense of personal agency durring the raid. Even if we win, I can't say I had fun doing so.

    Rotations usually are 5-10 button presses which are then looped depending on CD's and it's not about remembering them precisely.
    Benchmark rotations are merely a) the maximum theoretical DPS in a best case (static target, no mechanics) scenario for comparison, and b) a rough guideline to trace how to get there in a vacuum.
    They are useful to compare viability of builds and as guideline to learn them, not exactly what you will be doing on every boss in every scenario.
    And imo aside from PvP content, things like Fractals and Raids are really the only place in PvE where personal agency can be felt. Once you know your build, play it well and understand it's purpose in the group composition, you are keenly aware of your contribution to the success (or failure) of the group, unlike Story, Open World and Meta events where really nothing one does matters as there isn't a failure state.

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Absolutely analytics should drive development. To think otherwise is naive.

    The thing is that you can have 10 minutes of short and mind-numbingly easy content rewarding 5 gold that is terribly designed, and 20 minutes of challenging content rewarding 5 gold which is a blast to play, engages people with game mechanics to beat it, as well as forming social bonds through requiring communication, and without question people at large will flock to the more rewarding short and easy content as people, even when it's to their own detriment (be it for personal growth or missing out on fun experiences), will go for the path of least resistance and analytics will show that more people are "engaged" with that type of content, urging analytics driven devs to produce more low quality reward driven content as a result, even though that will long term drastically reduce the quality of the game and the overall player engagement with it.

    Analytics are fine and well, if one knows how to read and interpret them. High numbers in certain content doesn't necessitate high engagement with that content or even that it's fun, nor if it's good for the game longterm to produce more of that.
    I'm sure things like Istan farming had crazy engagement numbers of people getting close to insanity brainlessly farming for hours and hours simply because the rewards were so ridiculous they destroyed the ingame economy for years to come.
    That doesn't mean one should release a new even easier to farm and more profitable Istan every patch (unless you want people to burn out and quit while the rest watches the economy crash and burn).

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I strongly agree with you.

    The game is about fun, and fun has many faces. Failing is part of the gameplay. Sadly, once we get the grasp of Raid mechanics it becomes pretty bland after first few clears. MMORPGs that focus on builds more than player's reflexes are always going to go that way.
    I love the versatility of MMORPGs, but because of that they lack in the depth of each mechanic. It's like the jack-of-all-trades, master of none. So rarely any content will be as challenging as single-player RPGs and rarely any story will be as engaging as any RPG. And because MMORPGs are this kind of always-in-development, people will have their demands, and will be vocal about them. Whether Devs should listen to all, I don't think so.

    For me it feels as if everything in online gaming revolves around optimization. Once I follow that path, the whole enjoyment, for me, simply goes away. Just after getting my Legendary Armor I instantly stopped playing GW2 for a long time. I knew what I signed up for, but I still was like "That's it?". I just slammed my way to the shiny reward, the skin and the legendary that lets me optimize my gameplay even more.

    And if I start feeling trapped by the game's design to be in the loop, that's when I stop playing. What is the point?

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mutisija.5017 said:
    hey people i got a great idea for how to improve this restaurant! lets trash the menu that contained mostly just mild foods, and focus only on selling ultra spicy food. majority of customers claiming that they would stop visiting if we served only foods stuffed full of carolina reapers are just stupid people who know nothing of enjoyable food, and we should not listen to them. people who dislike super spicy food are just gated by their mindsets. they will love it if we just serve them super spicy food even if they say that they dont want to eat it! this will definitely not make them all want to switch to another restaurant.

    Give me 2-3 pitchers of water and I'll down that spicy food.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2020

    @Mutisija.5017 said:
    hey people i got a great idea for how to improve this restaurant! lets trash the menu that contained mostly just mild foods, and focus only on selling ultra spicy food. majority of customers claiming that they would stop visiting if we served only foods stuffed full of carolina reapers are just stupid people who know nothing of enjoyable food, and we should not listen to them. people who dislike super spicy food are just gated by their mindsets. they will love it if we just serve them super spicy food even if they say that they dont want to eat it! this will definitely not make them all want to switch to another restaurant.

    More like a restaurant that only serves bread and water might consider offering actually substantial dishes, and I don't think anybody wants to get rid of the bread and water either. Just not only that.

    Raids in GW2 hardly are "carolina reapers" in any case, maybe a moderate cayenne.

    And sure, a lot of people are reluctant of new foods and spices at first, especially if it's not gradually introduced while growing up. Most things are an acquired taste and people will complain, but the alternative being stuck with bread, water and maybe pureed vegetables and fruits forever is a bit silly (and sometimes you need to push people to even just eat their veggies).

    At least I can't imagine eating that for years. Variety is key.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Zaklex.6308Zaklex.6308 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2020

    @Taril.8619 said:

    ~snip~

    If anything, MMO's need to start going the other way with things and making general content more challenging to try and illicit a response from players to actually bother to play the game.

    Gamers aren't allergic to difficult games. The popularity of Dark Souls and thus the rise of the "Souls-like" genre says much about how people (Even disabled people, as noted with Sekiro when Journalists tried to be woke and talk about how the game was too hard for disabled people which miffed off tons of disabled people who loved the game)

    Of course, things don't have to be too challenging, since a common argument is that people play video games to relax after work. But the constant diminishing of need to actually engage with the game is not healthy for population.

    ~snip~
    It's not gamer's that are the problem audience here, it's the 3 billion people on this planet that play mobile games and spend money...that's the audience you're trying to draw in and you can't do it with challenging content that gamer's might like. Also I could say it's a 50/50 issue on people playing difficult games, compare the sales of Dark Souls to something like Skyrim...do you see the difference? That's what businesses have to decide on, whether to go after the 20 million units sold market or the 3 million units of Dark Souls, which do you think looks better to the marketing and accounting people?

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @Taril.8619 said:

    I.e. If your average non-raider spends more money on average in the Gem store than a raider, then producing content for non-raiders, to keep them playing and wanting to spend more money, is more profitable than producing content for raiders, to keep them playing and wanting to spend more money.

    Except you probably don't understand that raiders spend money on gems too. It's like you're pooling raiders as players who play something else when it's literally the same game. Were playing the same game we as a community as a whole have the same spending habits on average.

    >
    Problem with your assumption is that part of ArenaNet's analytics tells them who spends how much on Gems, so it's quite possible that open world players spend a considerably more amount of RW money on gems than players that exclusively raid, the only people that know the truth is ArenaNet. Before you can suggest they can't track data, they certainly can since you have to buy the gems while logged into your account, or even enter gem card codes while logged in, so it's not data that's hard to gather.

    Yes...no...maybe...what do you want, can't you see I'm busy saving the world...AGAIN!

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    How do skilled players become skilled players if not through data analytics? You can't objectively increase the odds of group success without using data analytics. What the swinging cat do you think damage meters are doing? The OP is using 'shoot the messenger' logic. Which isn't logical. Analytics has discovered competition for studio resources and they blame it on the tool. They also blame it on non raiders. Perhaps blaming the tool is meant to soften the guilt of non raiders. Raids could easily offer the worst or a terrible return on investment. RoI shouldn't be the only thing determining how the studio spends resources, but it will be an important consideration.

    Jordan isn't discussing analytics in good faith either. The WoW developers admit that analytics will discover optimal solutions that aren't fun, but will also give a genuine, over all picture of what the player base finds worth doing, a baseline for a definition for fun. Jordan responds with an example that analytics could show as optimized for 'fun as time' that isn't fun. He is trying to disagree with them by agreeing with them. Analytics would discover that players were logging in every 15 minutes or only running one dungeon.

    _A studio must use analytics and defines itself by how it responds to what they learn._Gamifying and profiting from fun is a herd of cursing kittens complex. Imo, the studio has problems with their philosophy of analytics. Trying to please many disparate groups across many disparate modes can cause a decrease in mode difficulty or mode complexity. Tyrian raids aren't as intense as other games. NPC character dimension is reduced in the Living World. Arenanet decided to build a game world that rejected gate keeping and I am glad to see them struggle to make that work. The inflation of mode type and mode agency is a worthwhile problem to have, a valuable foe.

    Gold provides a powerful analytical tool. Gold also provides agency, it defeats gate keeping. Yet somehow, the early game's economy relied on players behaving as robots at the MF. We can visit a casino and gamble. There has always been a white lie kernel near the heart of the studio's understanding of player agency. To me, it looks like an econ edge lord's religious faith in fungibility and black and white approach to revealed preference. Masochism, dependency, addiction do all qualify as valuable data points of agency.

    Imo, the problems with Arenanet's philosophy of analytics fall into two categories:

    They are willing to discover and monetize high fidelity examples of anti agency. Their agency creation and analysis tool has too many hard wired paths, some of which lead to anti agency destinations.

    The studio's genuine interest in listening for agency combined with gold as an agency multiplier has built a game that is always spreading and struggling to find its unique personality. Which I think is PvE and the Living World. Skins and the fashion wars don't do justice to Tyria's unique personality. Using a reward meta as an exogenous landscape where the studio can find endogenous data points of fun; the studio has never had a data set to query that resonates with their unique core personality.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2020

    @thepenmonster.3621 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    To many people, the easy things are the "memorable, engaging and genuinely fun experiences".

    Once upon a time, some months ago, a message popped up in the map chat in Orr;

    "Anyone around? I need some help for the Melandru chain"

    There were a few "OMWs" and "Where at?" and one "You have my ax!". That last one was me by the way. I hope no one was disappointed I was using a hammer scrapper.

    When I arrived there were two players already there. The person asking for help, elementalist, and a necro. All three of us were playing Asura. Cute but we set out. As we finished the events more players joined. They were all Asura as well. Here's the kicker: We were all mostly clad in primary colors. Orange, green, white, black. That's right. We were Asuran Power Rangers taking on a giant statue. If only we had a big golem to jump into.

    Great memory. Entirely casual.

    And yet the key components of that memorable experience were 1. difficulty, someone struggling, failing and needing help and 2. communication and it turning into a social experience because of that.

    Anet tried to facilitate a lot more moments like that with HoT, but the vocal minority of casual complainers screamed for so long that they caved and nerfed half the Hero Points and such into the ground, turning some of them from engaging mechanical experiences and social mini hubs into boring press F to channels, while others are just yet again more points on the map checklist you walk to, nuke from orbit and move on, just like core, without ever being engaged or making a memory, with only a few of them still intact as interesting fights which you need to engage with, either by playing really well and thinking about your build making it an interesting gameplay experience or asking for help, creating a social experience.
    PoF then continued down that path further to become even more forgettable and while I still remember HoT at launch to this day, running around helping people with certain HP's and such in a vibrant alive world with challenges, already with PoF almost all I remember is just that I flew through it, nuked everything and there was lot's of sand.

    Point is, content can be moderately difficult and still be casual and requests for more difficulty don't mean "make everything teeth grinding difficult hardcore content".
    It just means that if the vast majority of released content is walk around solo and press F to get shiny, or close to that, every release quickly becomes little more than a forgettable busy work (meta achievement) checklist to work off, instead of a fun gameplay experience with memorable moments just like that.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2020

    @Naxos.2503 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @thepenmonster.3621 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    To many people, the easy things are the "memorable, engaging and genuinely fun experiences".

    Once upon a time, some months ago, a message popped up in the map chat in Orr;

    "Anyone around? I need some help for the Melandru chain"

    There were a few "OMWs" and "Where at?" and one "You have my ax!". That last one was me by the way. I hope no one was disappointed I was using a hammer scrapper.

    When I arrived there were two players already there. The person asking for help, elementalist, and a necro. All three of us were playing Asura. Cute but we set out. As we finished the events more players joined. They were all Asura as well. Here's the kicker: We were all mostly clad in primary colors. Orange, green, white, black. That's right. We were Asuran Power Rangers taking on a giant statue. If only we had a big golem to jump into.

    Great memory. Entirely casual.

    And yet the key components of that memorable experience were 1. difficulty, someone struggling, failing and needing help and 2. communication and it turning into a social experience because of that.

    Anet tried to facilitate a lot more moments like that with HoT, but the vocal minority of casual complainers screamed for so long that they caved and nerfed half the Hero Points and such into the ground, turning some of them from engaging mechanical experiences and social mini hubs into boring press F to channels, while others are just yet again more points on the map checklist you walk to, nuke from orbit and move on, just like core, without ever being engaged or making a memory, with only a few of them still intact as interesting fights which you need to engage with, either by playing really well and thinking about your build making it an interesting gameplay experience or asking for help, creating a social experience.
    PoF then continued down that path further to become even more forgettable and while I still remember HoT at launch to this day, running around helping people with certain HP's and such in a vibrant alive world with challenges, already with PoF almost all I remember is just that I flew through it, nuked everything and there was lot's of sand.

    Point is, content can be moderately difficult and still be casual and requests for more difficulty don't mean "make everything teeth grinding difficult hardcore content".
    It just means that if the vast majority of released content is walk around solo and press F to get shiny, or close to that, every release quickly becomes little more than a forgettable busy work (meta achievement) checklist to work off, instead of a fun gameplay experience with memorable moments just like that.

    You're absolutely correct there, the thing is, the drive for efficiency is not the same at all. Raids have a timer, that all but mean it has to be beat by That time, or it results in faillure. And you have few avenues to beat that timer, if those avenues are missed even once, you risk running the clock, voiding all your efforts completely. That moment described earlier had no such drive for efficiency, the goal was to win, not to win as efficiently, and quickly as possible.

    I'd indulge in raids as hard as they are currently were it not for that timer. That is literally my only gripe with the mode. I dont control my hands very well, and my rotations suffer as a result of it. It's not Pleasant to fail because of something outside of your control : an unfair mechanic that triggers if you take slightly too long for X or Y Reason.

    Just give my hands the time to actually properly play my class, properly play the mechanics, rather than beat the clock as fast as possible with DPS, let me use more nuanced builds, let me counter, let me adapt. I feel trapped by that timer, and only that timer. Because a build that isn't optimized to the latest meta Can beat those bosses, provided the timer is relaxed.

    I'd much rather have the boss get harder when you mess up a mechanic, than by such a simple factor as "time". I didn't pull the chains on time ? By all mean, debuff me. Knock me down. Kill me. But dont kill me because I lacked 2 minutes on that timer.

    I do think there are quite a lot of misconceptions about raids and while I do recognise a few of them here and want to point them out from my point of view, I don't mean to invalidate your experience with it in anyway.

    For most Bosses the timer really is incredibly generous and, unlike Meta events and such which generally are on a timer as well, in Raids for the most part it's not even an instant failure state. Bosses just "enrage", becoming significantly more deadly, but can still be beaten if one is close.
    There are only a few exceptions, like Twin Largos, where the timer can be really tight for a lot of groups, and not being quick enough results in a wipe.

    That said even when one fails you said that voids all of your efforts completely.
    I think that is mainly a mentality problem which can quite easily be adjusted if you try to perceive those failures as part of the learning process, which then allows you to think for yourself and with your group what went wrong, what can be improved, what can be changed, in a constructive and positive manner, to then try again and hopefully succeed.
    If wiping is just seen as a complete failure from which nothing of value is gained, then yes, I imagine it ends up being quite frustrating, but it doesn't have to be that way.

    On that note, that line of thinking is also when someone in my opinion discovers the fun in efficiency - once they are part of that thinking process of improvement themselves, rather than just being a spectator who then has to abide by the resulting changes without understanding why.

    That said, while content like Raids lends itself to optimisation and efficiency, they really aren't that difficult that you can't get through them semi-casually in a fun group playing quirky non meta builds, doing non optimal rotations.
    People make out Raids to be a lot harder than they actually are.

    As for issues with your hands I can relate and you might want to consider looking into supports which tend to be a lot less demanding on the hands/wrists, focusing a lot more on adapting to the fight and being perceptive of things going wrong rather than apm.

    I would wager 95%+ of Raid wipes are due to failed mechanics, rather than the timer (and even timer fails are generally the result of having failed too many mechanics, losing time ressing etc.), so if that is all that is keeping you away I would urge you to reconsider.

    One thing I really wish people would realise is that you don't need to do Meta perfect 38k DPS rotations to beat content like Raids.
    Those hardcore meta groups usually only take 2-4 minutes per boss, so even if your group literally does 50% less DPS than those meta builds and players, you are still far from hitting the timer on most if not all bosses.
    There are (very much so non meta) builds you can make like a power Renegade which literally just activates one upkeep skill and then autoattacks, dealing ~25k DPS (fully buffed), which is more than enough to beat the content.
    The real problem is when people somehow manage to just do 4-8k DPS, aka pressing all buttons randomly/on CD with a completely nonsensical selection of Traits, because that's unfortunately how anyone can get by in the open world, without ever having been engaged and tested by the game mechanics.

    Even of those completely min maxed 38k DPS meta builds, you can often drastically simplify the rotation of and leave a lot of taxing steps out and maybe only lose around 1-5k DPS. It's fine.

    Let's take Vale Guardian as an example.
    The Boss has 22.021.440 HP and an enrage timer of 8 Minutes (480 seconds), after which point it's damage increases by 200%.
    That means a group needs to do a mere 45.878 DPS per second to beat it before the timer, which is 4587 DPS per player.
    Due to mechanics and phases interrupting the time you will be able to damage the boss, as well as having low dps supports, that means if everybody does just ~15k DPS you will be way ahead of the timer.
    The biggest issue by far is failing mechanics, getting downs which need to be ressed (massively dropping group DPS) etc.
    High DPS helps by allowing to skip mechanics and providing a safety net for those moments when things go wrong.
    But you are fighting the boss and it's mechanics primarily, not your rotations or a timer.

    If you are interested in that type of content, and you imo should because it's great, just don't jump straight into a hardcore pug/lfg group. That makes for a terrible experience.
    I can't recommend enough for people to try their best to find a semi-casual like minded beginner group to learn and grow with instead.
    Yes that takes some effort to find, but it's worth it.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Zaklex.6308Zaklex.6308 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    ~snip~

    On that note, that line of thinking is also when someone in my opinion discovers the fun in efficiency - once they are part of that thinking process of improvement themselves, rather than just being a spectator who then has to abide by the resulting changes without understanding why.

    ~snip~

    I'm only responding to this line as in my opinion I don't think there's any fun in efficiency in a video game. Unless your on the competitive scene, and by that I mean professional competitive scene(make a living at), not like the GW2 competitive scene then you might want to be efficient to maximize your earnings potential. When you're playing a game for pure entertainment and relaxation purposes, aka fun, there's absolutely no reason to be efficient as you're just trying to "waste" time enjoying a game. People say time is precious, for some yes, but for the vast majority they've got 80 odd years to live, you can afford to "waste" some of that not time being efficient.

    Yes...no...maybe...what do you want, can't you see I'm busy saving the world...AGAIN!

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    Again, missing the point, there is no 10 man instanced content for players who may not perform well, but would like to play in a group like this. Same principle as fractals, same principles that all the other big AAA mmorpg employ. It's not about getting better, it's about the style of gameplay.

    There is though, I can pretty much guarantee that you can beat 100% of Strikes and most of the Raid bosses with 3 supports and 7 people doing little more than just autoattacking, given the right builds made for that.

    Fractals have a difficulty system in place which at it's lowest can literally be soloed with ease, so it shouldn't be a problem for not so well performing groups either.

    @Zaklex.6308 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    ~snip~

    On that note, that line of thinking is also when someone in my opinion discovers the fun in efficiency - once they are part of that thinking process of improvement themselves, rather than just being a spectator who then has to abide by the resulting changes without understanding why.

    ~snip~

    I'm only responding to this line as in my opinion I don't think there's any fun in efficiency in a video game. Unless your on the competitive scene, and by that I mean professional competitive scene(make a living at), not like the GW2 competitive scene then you might want to be efficient to maximize your earnings potential. When you're playing a game for pure entertainment and relaxation purposes, aka fun, there's absolutely no reason to be efficient as you're just trying to "waste" time enjoying a game. People say time is precious, for some yes, but for the vast majority they've got 80 odd years to live, you can afford to "waste" some of that not time being efficient.

    It ofc depends on the person, but doing something well, even if it's just a hobby (or in many cases especially then) can be fun too.
    It's not really about maximising earnings or minimizing time spent for most people, although some people really enjoy that too.
    Doesn't matter if you are playing football with friends, benching weights or Raiding in a game, things working well, coming together and a sense of improvement can be very much so fun and fulfilling for it's own sake, even if there isn't a monetary gain attached to it.

    That said, being part of a well oiled Raid squad smoothly clearing content is mainly just quite relaxing and fun, despite being efficient as well.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    Again, missing the point, there is no 10 man instanced content for players who may not perform well, but would like to play in a group like this.

    Have you tried the Grothmar Strike Mission?

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2020

    @Bridget Morrigan.1752 said:
    I've been watching your [OP] posts over the past week, and I think there's one thing you need to understand about people that you're failing to really grasp: you can't change people's minds about this.

    What they want is what they want. You might want them to get into liking raiding, but unless and until it's a priority for them, the accessibility roadblocks, however small they may seem to you, are just annoying enough for them to make it not worth the bother. In other words, you can't persuade them to make it a priority to raid and to like it.

    In a way, you're not wrong to say, "As I've mentioned earlier, the only thing gating players from raiding is literally a mindset, and nothing else. That phrase sounds a little insulting because it implies that the roadblocks don't exist except in people's minds, and roadblocks/deterrents/inconveniences/commitments/whatever DO exist whether you find them significant or not...but sure: mind over matter, if people really just wanted to raid enough, I'm sure they would. They just don't want to that much, because those roadblocks are that significant to them, and the payoff is not. And you wanting them to want to isn't going to make them want to want to.

    If someone says they just don't enjoy content like Raids, especially if they tried it a few times to see if that's genuinely true, I don't think there is a way to not respect that and it's perfectly fine. It's definitely not for everybody.

    Where the arguments start is at the reasons given why people can't get into Raids, from being gatekeeped by LFG's asking for KP/LI (when everybody can make their own group, and finding a like minded beginner group being the far superior way to get into Raids than pugging anyway), to not being able to do perfect meta rotations (when there is a mountain of possible builds doing ~20k DPS by basically just Auto Attacking, perfectly able of clearing even Raids), to the general Idea that content like Raids is insanely hard and they just aren't good enough for it, or the timer being a problem (when really they can be cleared with 30-50% of the performance of the meta builds in the hands of hardcore players, which is easily doable by casual players).

    When almost all reasons people list for not being able to play the content is just a community mindset that has been propagated without actually being true, then it feels really unfortunate that so many people are kept from that fantastic content for things they have just build up in their heads/been told.

    If someone just doesn't enjoy the content and has no interest in it whatsoever, fair enough.
    If they are missing out on great content (and communities) they would love because of irrational fears and/or false information, then that's a shame.

    I'm personally coming from that place where I had bought into this community fear and the tribal us vs them mindset against the hardcore playerbase and content, thinking Raids and it's community were absolutely not for me and despising the idea of things like DPS meters, until I through a variety of circumstances happened to try it and realised I had just been limiting my own fun before.
    Ofc not everybody is like that, and I'm not trying to convince everbody. My hope is just to reach someone hesitant of the content for all those imaginary reasons like me just reading along and maybe getting them to give it a shot too.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Obfuscate.6430Obfuscate.6430 Member ✭✭
    edited April 23, 2020

    Some people can not get in to raids despite wanting to because of a combination of time zones, time constraints (balancing work /kids/other responsibilities) and finding people in the raiding community able to work with someone dealing with those constraints. It has nothing to do with an inability to "get good", or a lack of desire._ Please stop using that as your argument.

    So here is an idea:
    If making easy, normal and hard modes isn't an option than perhaps having progress you can save is. Imagine if you got 1/4 through a raid , was able to log off, and come back to it, like you can with story instances. That leaves the challenge where it is for people who have the time while creating space for people who want to do the content but can't do it all at once.

    Make raids have save points like story instances/chapters, that you can come back to even after logging off. It solves everybody's problems.

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2020

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Bridget Morrigan.1752 said:
    I've been watching your [OP] posts over the past week, and I think there's one thing you need to understand about people that you're failing to really grasp: you can't change people's minds about this.

    What they want is what they want. You might want them to get into liking raiding, but unless and until it's a priority for them, the accessibility roadblocks, however small they may seem to you, are just annoying enough for them to make it not worth the bother. In other words, you can't persuade them to make it a priority to raid and to like it.

    In a way, you're not wrong to say, "As I've mentioned earlier, the only thing gating players from raiding is literally a mindset, and nothing else. That phrase sounds a little insulting because it implies that the roadblocks don't exist except in people's minds, and roadblocks/deterrents/inconveniences/commitments/whatever DO exist whether you find them significant or not...but sure: mind over matter, if people really just wanted to raid enough, I'm sure they would. They just don't want to that much, because those roadblocks are that significant to them, and the payoff is not. And you wanting them to want to isn't going to make them want to want to.

    I'm personally coming from that place where I had bought into this community fear and the tribal us vs them mindset against the hardcore playerbase and content, thinking Raids and it's community were absolutely not for me and despising the idea of things like DPS meters, until I through a variety of circumstances happened to try it and realised I had just been limiting my own fun before.
    Ofc not everybody is like that, and I'm not trying to convince everbody. My hope is just to reach someone hesitant of the content for all those imaginary reasons like me just reading along and maybe getting them to give it a shot too.

    Grgrgrgrgrgrgrgrgrgrgrgrgrgrgrgrrg
    grrgrggrgrgrgrgrgrgrrgrgrgrgrrgrrgrgrgrg
    Grgrrgrgrgrgrgrgrggrgr

    If they like raids it they will stay in a more relaxed time in Training Guilds , avoiding LFG .
    And avoiding entirly Wing 5/6/7 , because training groups dont do that , and they dont have the LI/KP for that to show it and join the Wing 5/6/7 LFG groups

    Hellsing Abridged.First5minsux. JapAudio: Soul Eater, Arpeggio of Blue Steel,Code Geass
    Seto no Hanayome(startfrom2ndep), Baka to Test,Pani Pon,He Is My Master(2nd) ,Azumanga Daioh
    Kamen no Maid Guy, Kenichi, Ouran Koukou,Yamato Nadeshiko, Rosario+Vampire(2nd)Haré+Guu(5th), AIR MASTER!!!

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    That said even when one fails you said that voids all of your efforts completely.
    I think that is mainly a mentality problem which can quite easily be adjusted if you try to perceive those failures as part of the learning process, which then allows you to think for yourself and with your group what went wrong, what can be improved, what can be changed, in a constructive and positive manner, to then try again and hopefully succeed.
    If wiping is just seen as a complete failure from which nothing of value is gained, then yes, I imagine it ends up being quite frustrating, but it doesn't have to be that way.

    You are making an assumption here that colors your whole thinking. An assumption you might yourself not be aware of. You are speaking of mentality problem, when the words you should have used should be "mentality difference". There's absolutely no problem that "needs to be adjusted" with perceiving the situation the way Naxos described. A failure is a failure, and perceiving it that way is perfectly normal.

    That is the core issue here. The difference in player mentality. And if the decades now of MMORPG history have shown us anything, is that hoping that casual players will change their mentality and their approach to the game to become hardcores is an excercise in futility. It does happen, but it is relatively rare. In fact, if the shift in mentality happens, it usually happens the other way (there's a lot of "veteran" casuals that were quite active hardcore players/raiders when they were younger, the opposite almost never happens however).

    You are kind of inferring a negative connotation to my word choice where there wasn't really meant one.

    It can be a "problem" in the sense that it can needlessly rob people of enjoyment they otherwise would have and lead to a negative experience when it doesn't need to.
    I just meant to point out how a wipe doesn't necessarily just mean failure and a waste of time (at least not in non PuG's), but can in fact be seen as part of the learning process, which is actually an integral part to the sense of satisfaction and achievement one then gets when overcoming those struggles together eventually.

    So yes, it is a mentality difference which can be a problem. That's all I meant to say.

    Imo there is a big difference between a minor setback which one can learn, improve and grow from and an outright crushing failure without redeeming elements. And that's in most cases a difference people have control over, depending on how they choose to perceive them.

    Whether a harmful cognitive distortion is normal or not doesn't really matter there.

    But ofc it's everybodies own prerogative to perceive that however they choose to still.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • FrizzFreston.5290FrizzFreston.5290 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Taril.8619 said:

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:
    Doesn't this thread miss the whole point of: Difficulty is subjective, fun is subjective, where analytics show what people enjoy

    That's a misnomer.

    Analytics will not show what people enjoy.

    It will only show what people deem suitably rewarding.

    This doesn't only include things that people enjoy, but also happens to include things that people don't enjoy but which gives a reward that outweighs the lack of enjoyment.

    A good example is Daily Quest grinds in WoW. Lots of people did Daily Quests for Reputations in WoW because Rep vendors gave considerably good rewards (It used to be things like enchants for shoulder armour and the like, with this being the only source for such an enhancement). But it did not mean that the same people enjoyed doing this. In fact, the majority of people HATED it. Eventually Bli$$ard listened and removed such items from Rep vendors so people weren't enticed into grinding out Daily Quests to get them (But at the same time, they implemented other reasons to force people to do them because Bli$$ard is dumb and makes dumb decisions...)

    It however, highlights something that developers need to keep in mind, that high activity =/= high enjoyment. You need to listen to feedback to determine enjoyment, otherwise the high activity can be simply be due to the rewards being high enough to draw people in despite the lack of enjoyment.

    Yes, sorry, good point.

  • Rasimir.6239Rasimir.6239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Taril.8619 said:

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:
    Doesn't this thread miss the whole point of: Difficulty is subjective, fun is subjective, where analytics show what people enjoy

    That's a misnomer.

    Analytics will not show what people enjoy.

    It will only show what people deem suitably rewarding.

    You assume that every player is motivated by rewards. I know a lot of people who are, but I also know a lot of people who are not. Lots of people, especially in this game where almost all of the rewards can be gotten in a variety of ways, actually do play content because they enjoy said content.

    I'm sure ANet is aware of this and knows how to interpret the numbers and account for those grinding the content until they've gotten what they want as opposed to those who keep coming back to said content again and again. For example, I still love this game's dungeons and take every chance I get to jump into one, despite having finished all of the dungeon related collections and achievements years ago, with dungeon tokens accumulating in my wallet, never being used. I know I can turn those tokens into gold and/or materials in a variety of ways, I just don't because it's not fun to me. Putting up a simple "p1" in lfg and running with whatever joins on the other hand is fun. Last time I wanted to run CoE for example, four people joined that were all new to the dungeon (and even to the game in general). It was a decidedly un-meta run, but it was just sooo much fun, I can't help but still smile when I think of it.

    Analytics is much more than just counting a simple "x people do content a, y people do content b". The numbers are able to show what people enjoy, as well as what people see rewarding. The challenge is to interpret the numbers so you come to the right conclusions. Personally I think ANet has proven quite often that they are good at reading their numbers as well as taking in feedback from other sources to come up with content suitable to the game. Not everything is perfect, but the majority of new features and updates seems to imply to me that ANet has a pretty good grasp on how to use all feedback sources available to them, including interpreting the analytics available to them.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 24, 2020

    @Taril.8619 said:

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:
    Doesn't this thread miss the whole point of: Difficulty is subjective, fun is subjective, where analytics show what people enjoy

    That's a misnomer.

    Analytics will not show what people enjoy.

    It will only show what people deem suitably rewarding.

    This doesn't only include things that people enjoy, but also happens to include things that people don't enjoy but which gives a reward that outweighs the lack of enjoyment.
    It however, highlights something that developers need to keep in mind, that high activity =/= high enjoyment. You need to listen to feedback to determine enjoyment, otherwise the high activity can be simply be due to the rewards being high enough to draw people in despite the lack of enjoyment.

    Exactly this.

    Examples from this game too:
    Auric Basin Multi loot
    Istan multi farm
    Fractal level 40 farm
    Swamps of the Mists
    Queensdale Champion train
    Silverwastes Amber Sandfall chest farm
    EOTM Karma Trains
    and probably the "fist" one: Citadel of Flame Path 1 farm
    or was it Penit/Shelter farm the first? Or what was that golem in Cursed Shore that I forgot his name? Or the one at the southeast edge of Cursed Shore with the vigil tactician and the grubs? So many memories, so many farms
    and many more examples like these

    Things that are really high reward/low effort will destroy analytics and not show "enjoyment" at all. On the flip side, the developers used analytics to figure out that these things were over-rewarding and nerfed them, a very good use of analytics.

    edit: removed Silverwastes RIBA because that still exists, but replaced it with the much older Silverwastes Amber Sandfall chest farm which was... far worse.

  • JTGuevara.9018JTGuevara.9018 Member ✭✭✭

    "Analytics should not drive the direction of the game...."

    And yet it is! It is a fact of life in our information age. gw2 is no exception. However, the issue isn't really analytics is it? That's just a cover for what you really say in your post. You don't want "those" players playing your content! Mindset you say? No...most people don't raid because it's not fun. The proof is in the pudding. This is coming from someone who went through the whole process. Research, practicing rotations on the golem, helping to run guild raid events, committing to voice comms and the raid, getting the actual kills. Not really my choice, by the way, I was just a guild officer doing what was needed. I never WANTED to raid.

    You raiders need to make a choice. Make the raids easier and acceptable to attract more people or keep them hard and stay small and don't complain. You can't have both.

  • Pifil.5193Pifil.5193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rasimir.6239 said:

    @Taril.8619 said:

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:
    Doesn't this thread miss the whole point of: Difficulty is subjective, fun is subjective, where analytics show what people enjoy

    That's a misnomer.

    Analytics will not show what people enjoy.

    It will only show what people deem suitably rewarding.

    You assume that every player is motivated by rewards. I know a lot of people who are, but I also know a lot of people who are not. Lots of people, especially in this game where almost all of the rewards can be gotten in a variety of ways, actually do play content because they enjoy said content.

    Then the reward they play for is enjoyment so the point stands, however if you wish to then you can say that what the analytics show is what content people are willing to do for whatever reason.

    I'm sure the people in ArenaNet know about intrinsic and extrinsic rewards and a good deal about player motivation. I'm also sure that the exact reason why individuals are willing to do it is a nuance that isn't really all that relevant in aggregate.

    They have content that people do and content they don't.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 24, 2020

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    You raiders need to make a choice. Make the raids easier and acceptable to attract more people or keep them hard and stay small and don't complain. You can't have both.

    It'd be better to have multiple difficulties than to give raids a blanket nerf.
    That way, players with a more casual attitude can enjoy the easier mode and the story. while current raiders can enjoy the current difficulty.
    This can easily be achieved by reducing the health and damage of bosses and removing the enrage timers, as well as one-shot mechanics (if they exist).
    Arenanet could even add a harder mode for those madwomen and madmen who think current raids are too easy.

    In WoW, LFR as an easier difficulty saved the raiding scene by massively increasing player participation and thus justifying the continued production of raids. Meanwhile, heroic/mythic raids gave more thrill to the top percentage raiders.
    There is no reason GW2 should have different results when adding multiple difficulties.

  • @Fueki.4753 said:
    It'd be better to have multiple difficulties

    This is the most sensible option. But I'm assuming they haven't tried it (and won't) because of the "spaghetti code"

    The Commander will end you.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rasimir.6239 said:
    The numbers are able to show what people enjoy, as well as what people see rewarding.

    We all know that S3 zones are mostly dead by this point, especially Ember Bay, Lake Doric and Draconis Mons, all zones that I've been to recently, even when they were part of the daily. And most S4 zones don't have many players around except during a meta, Thuderhead Peaks being a curious exception by my observations. What do these analytics tell us about enjoyment and rewards?