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Reconciling the Mouvelian Calender with Varra Skylark's remarks

Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
edited April 23, 2020 in Lore

Hi guys,
I've been putting a lot more thought into the nature of the perceived time paradoxes present in this game. I think that some of these paradoxes are simple misunderstandings. Chief among these misunderstandings is the nature of time, as measured by the Mouvelian Calendar, and the reasoning behind Varra Skylark's comment at Arah: that the Elder Dragons were active roughly 10000 years ago.

Here's the substance of my brooding: Although Varra is a member of the Durmand Priory, she isn't using the Mouvelian Calendar to calculate time. I'm not exactly sure why, but I'd put it down to either i) racial bias (Varra finds norn timekeeping practices easier to understand) or ii) scholarly bias. In regards to the latter, Varra has been studying jotun timekeeping practices, so it makes sense that she would adopt them when using jotun magitech (the telescope at Arah).

So what's the difference between the Mouvelian Calendar, a human timekeeping system, and jotun timekeeping? Well, it's quite simple: the Mouvelian Calendar is calculated using Tyria's sun's relative position to the Rift. Jotun timekeeping, however, is determined using Tyria's relative position to it's sun. In other words, it takes at least 3000 Mouvelian Calendar years for Tyria's solar system to complete an orbit of the Rift. In that time, Tyria complete's an orbit of it's sun roughly 10000 times. Hence, both the Mouvelian Calendar and jotun timekeeping are correct, depending on which timekeeper (the Rift or Tyria's sun) you wish to refer to. (I believe that Lord Odran's Map of the Mists details the relationship between Tyria's solar system and the Rift.)

What this means is that when Logan and other NPCS remark that Glint has over three thousand years of memory, they are referring to the Mouvelian Calendar. What is most intriguing about this timekeeping process, however, is that Glint's own remarks support Mouvelian timekeeping practices. She see's herself as three thousand years old.

There's something in here. You all know my theory that the Elder Dragons are avatars of the Rift. I wonder if dragonkind as a whole originate from this region of the Mists? When they look into the sky, perhaps their vision, or their minds' eye, means that the dominant light source they behold isn't Tyria's sun but the Rift.

Comments

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 24, 2020

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    Here's the substance of my brooding: Although Varra is a member of the Durmand Priory, she isn't using the Mouvelian Calendar to calculate time.

    Is this a statement, or a hypothesis? Because as far as I know, nothing indicates that she's using a different system to calculate time.

    While there is quite an issue with the time of the last ED rise, with some sources saying 10,000/11,000 years, and other sources saying 3,000/2,000 years, Varra is not the only source saying 10,000 years ago. Varra's comment likely comes from the same origins as Scholar Stinn's - that is, the Elder Dragon date is associated with the extinction of the Giganticus Lupicus in 10,000 BE. That would be using the Mouvelian calendar, and simplifying "11,326 years ago" as "10,000 years ago". Supporting this statement is also the Mursaat Lore Tablets, which aren't related to the Durmand Priory or jotun at all. Though that runs the issue of... when were those tablets written, and what calendar system do they use.

    So what's the difference between the Mouvelian Calendar, a human timekeeping system, and jotun timekeeping? Well, it's quite simple: the Mouvelian Calendar is calculated using Tyria's sun's relative position to the Rift.

    Again: is this a statement, or a hypothesis? The only established facts about the Mouvelian Calendar's design is that it's based off of the Gregorian calendar. The Gregorian calendar, in turn, is a solar calendar (as opposed to a lunar calendar or lunisolar calendar) utilizing tropical year counting (as opposed to sidereal years) that monitor's the sun's relative position to the stars - I'm not sure where you're bringing in the Rift from, as far as I know, there is no established canonical relation between the Rift and Tyria's solar system.

    Jotun timekeeping, however, is determined using Tyria's relative position to it's sun.

    Where's your source for this? While we do know that the jotun has a heavy relation to star study, I've not seen anything about chronology in their lore.

    But your argument is that Jotun's chronology is based on a sidereal solar calendar (position of earth's revolution to the sun), while Tyrian humans' is based on a tropical solar calendar (sun's position in relation to seasons)? Am I understanding this correctly?

    If so, I do not think there can possibly be a 7,000 year difference in the calendars, as they're both solar calendar systems and take into account the sun's position. For this to work, there would need to be 2.33 winters a mouvelian year, or for the jotun (and mursaat) calendar to last only 3.33 Mouvelian months (if I did my math right for these numbers), which very much does not seem to be the case - and it would be very weird indeed for any priory scholar, especially an asura, to acciount for such.

    In addition, the 10,000 BE date is, well, notably Mouvelian. The 10,000 years come from the Mouvelian calendar far more than the 3,000 year date (bolded for emphasis in this body of text) which is primarily mentioned by Forgotten, though once suggested indirectly by Seiran. Either way, the Priory utilize both dating methods in some manner.

    So if I were to take your theory and run with it, I would inverse the argument. And it could work - the Forgotten are not of this world, after all; the years they are used to could be over twice as long as Tyria's. The issue comes in that Glint and dwarven records uses this dating too.

    Basically, too many different sources are independently using the same dates.

    10,000 BE is used by:

    • Tyrian humans (Mouvelian calendar)
    • Through above, asura and norn
    • Mursaat

    "3,000 years ago" is used by:

    • Forgotten
    • Dwarves
    • Glint
    • Possibly humans (1769 BE date in timeline)

    What this means is that when Logan and other NPCS remark that Glint has over three thousand years of memory, they are referring to the Mouvelian Calendar. What is most intriguing about this timekeeping process, however, is that Glint's own remarks support Mouvelian timekeeping practices. She see's herself as three thousand years old.

    Were your theory correct, it would be the inverse conclusion given the origin of the 10,000 year date. But that said - there is an alternative explanation for that line.

    In Crystalline Memories story step in PoF, Glint establishes that she has few memories from before the Forgotten performed their ritual on Glint. This means the 3,000 date is not on Glint's age, nor on the rise of the Elder Dragons, but rather 3,000 years ago refers to when Glint was purified, which notably occurred near the end of the previous dragonrise.

    One interpretation from this, then, is that the previous dragonrise might have lasted for 7,000 years. This might seem like an insanely long time for them to be awake given the devastation they perform, the destruction of civilizations is a long task, and with none capable of felling Elder Dragons, it could have easily lasted so long. After all, in 250 years, the Elder Dragons had not left the tiny space that is Central Tyria in this vast world. If it takes over two centuries for five of the Elder Dragons to conquer one tiny piece of the world, how long does it take for them to conquer the whole?

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 24, 2020

    edit...nvm found my answer to my question

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • @Randulf.7614 said:
    edit...nvm found my answer to my question

    But now I'll never know what it was.. :#

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    edit...nvm found my answer to my question

    But now I'll never know what it was.. :#

    It was pretty epic and the answer was mind blowing!

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    edit...nvm found my answer to my question

    But now I'll never know what it was.. :#

    It was pretty epic and the answer was mind blowing!

    As mindblowing as 42?

    Do not fear difficulty. Hard ground makes sore feet.
    All things...grow. And the blossom bothers the weed.
    Act with wisdom and axe.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anninke.7469 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    edit...nvm found my answer to my question

    But now I'll never know what it was.. :#

    It was pretty epic and the answer was mind blowing!

    As mindblowing as 42?

    Renders 42 obsolete

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 26, 2020

    HOW WILL I BE ABLE TO LIVE ON WITH THE BURDEN OF NEVER KNOWING?!?!?!

    Hate Is Fuel.