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How to PROPERLY handle lich form.

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  • Terrorhuz.4695Terrorhuz.4695 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2020

    My only problem with Lich form is that it restores life force to necromancers.
    I pierced through 30k shroud -should be about 15k but damage taken in shroud is halved-, then assuming you don't heal I pierce through 20k HP, then you pop the lich form and force me to kitten off for 10 more seconds. Lich form over; 15% more shroud, your staff cds are restored and with a couple of marks that may even be dodged -LF regen pops on mark trigger, regardless of whether it hits or not- you get back to 30-40% in no time. That's definitely not cool.
    As far as I am concerned they can halve the cooldown and make it a reliable tool to turn the tides of a fight, but the life force regeneration needs to be nuked 'cause now it's not an active gameplay tool, it's just an out of jail card for a class that is quite sturdy already.

  • @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:
    I tried it the other day. Spamming 4000+> @Axl.8924 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:
    Lich auto attack needs a reduction in damage by at least 50%.

    That in essence would prob delete lich. 50% is too big a nerf, especially for the cd it already has. You also run the risk of deleting core nec from SPVP completely.

    50% would allow you to constantly spam 2000+ crits instead of 4000-5000+.
    Why would core suffer much from a grossly OP elite ability being adjusted? If you depend on something that is obviously broken, you're in for a lot of disappointment.

    The lich has 5 skills. Nerf the broken one and buff the others.

    You can't avoid the slowest-moving character in the game for literally 10 seconds once every three minutes, assuming they are only focusing on you? Says a lot about your skills, bro.

    Sure I can, but giving someone a nuke and others a feather to fight with is bad balancing.

    A nuke with a dozen options to avoid? On a class where any group with a cleanse/heal prof can just eliminate most of your non-lich damage? Cool story, bro.

    PVP isn't only balanced around elite skills. But it is based on players with higher skill levels than you or I.

    Reviving this ancient discussion just to tell you that this is a grossly facetious defense of an obviously broken skill (especially now that zerker reaper is meta)

    A skill you might get to use twice a match? Sorry you can't figure out how to not be the only person in the match to die during the 15-30 seconds a match they pop lich. Got a gofundme page for that?

    Rampage had an atrocious cooldown and it was still busted. The infrequency doesn't matter if it's a huge problem when it is used.

    Strongly disagree. If you try to facetank a necro in lich, that's 100% on you.

    You don't have to "try to facetank a necro in lich" for lich form to be a problem. That's short-sighted.
    Also, you still haven't addressed the issue of reapers popping lich form out of shroud and firing off 2-3 attacks with quickness that are basically impossible to react to in time.
    And before you give the necro forum-mandated answer of "just pressure reaper lol", the issue isn't that you didn't pressure the reaper enough that they weren't able to get on top of you, it's that even with the pressure, the spec has the tools to safely reach you and unload 12k of lich bolts before you're able to answer it.

  • @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:
    I tried it the other day. Spamming 4000+> @Axl.8924 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:
    Lich auto attack needs a reduction in damage by at least 50%.

    That in essence would prob delete lich. 50% is too big a nerf, especially for the cd it already has. You also run the risk of deleting core nec from SPVP completely.

    50% would allow you to constantly spam 2000+ crits instead of 4000-5000+.
    Why would core suffer much from a grossly OP elite ability being adjusted? If you depend on something that is obviously broken, you're in for a lot of disappointment.

    The lich has 5 skills. Nerf the broken one and buff the others.

    You can't avoid the slowest-moving character in the game for literally 10 seconds once every three minutes, assuming they are only focusing on you? Says a lot about your skills, bro.

    Sure I can, but giving someone a nuke and others a feather to fight with is bad balancing.

    A nuke with a dozen options to avoid? On a class where any group with a cleanse/heal prof can just eliminate most of your non-lich damage? Cool story, bro.

    PVP isn't only balanced around elite skills. But it is based on players with higher skill levels than you or I.

    Reviving this ancient discussion just to tell you that this is a grossly facetious defense of an obviously broken skill (especially now that zerker reaper is meta)

    A skill you might get to use twice a match? Sorry you can't figure out how to not be the only person in the match to die during the 15-30 seconds a match they pop lich. Got a gofundme page for that?

    Rampage had an atrocious cooldown and it was still busted. The infrequency doesn't matter if it's a huge problem when it is used.

    Strongly disagree. If you try to facetank a necro in lich, that's 100% on you.

    You don't have to "try to facetank a necro in lich" for lich form to be a problem. That's short-sighted.
    Also, you still haven't addressed the issue of reapers popping lich form out of shroud and firing off 2-3 attacks with quickness that are basically impossible to react to in time.
    And before you give the necro forum-mandated answer of "just pressure reaper lol", the issue isn't that you didn't pressure the reaper enough that they weren't able to get on top of you, it's that even with the pressure, the spec has the tools to safely reach you and unload 12k of lich bolts before you're able to answer it.

    So you personally can't solo a reaper twice a match because of lich? That's your complaint?

  • @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:
    I tried it the other day. Spamming 4000+> @Axl.8924 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:
    Lich auto attack needs a reduction in damage by at least 50%.

    That in essence would prob delete lich. 50% is too big a nerf, especially for the cd it already has. You also run the risk of deleting core nec from SPVP completely.

    50% would allow you to constantly spam 2000+ crits instead of 4000-5000+.
    Why would core suffer much from a grossly OP elite ability being adjusted? If you depend on something that is obviously broken, you're in for a lot of disappointment.

    The lich has 5 skills. Nerf the broken one and buff the others.

    You can't avoid the slowest-moving character in the game for literally 10 seconds once every three minutes, assuming they are only focusing on you? Says a lot about your skills, bro.

    Sure I can, but giving someone a nuke and others a feather to fight with is bad balancing.

    A nuke with a dozen options to avoid? On a class where any group with a cleanse/heal prof can just eliminate most of your non-lich damage? Cool story, bro.

    PVP isn't only balanced around elite skills. But it is based on players with higher skill levels than you or I.

    Reviving this ancient discussion just to tell you that this is a grossly facetious defense of an obviously broken skill (especially now that zerker reaper is meta)

    A skill you might get to use twice a match? Sorry you can't figure out how to not be the only person in the match to die during the 15-30 seconds a match they pop lich. Got a gofundme page for that?

    Rampage had an atrocious cooldown and it was still busted. The infrequency doesn't matter if it's a huge problem when it is used.

    Strongly disagree. If you try to facetank a necro in lich, that's 100% on you.

    You don't have to "try to facetank a necro in lich" for lich form to be a problem. That's short-sighted.
    Also, you still haven't addressed the issue of reapers popping lich form out of shroud and firing off 2-3 attacks with quickness that are basically impossible to react to in time.
    And before you give the necro forum-mandated answer of "just pressure reaper lol", the issue isn't that you didn't pressure the reaper enough that they weren't able to get on top of you, it's that even with the pressure, the spec has the tools to safely reach you and unload 12k of lich bolts before you're able to answer it.

    So you personally can't solo a reaper twice a match because of lich? That's your complaint?

    What? I'm talking about teamfighting.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2020

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:
    I tried it the other day. Spamming 4000+> @Axl.8924 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:
    Lich auto attack needs a reduction in damage by at least 50%.

    That in essence would prob delete lich. 50% is too big a nerf, especially for the cd it already has. You also run the risk of deleting core nec from SPVP completely.

    50% would allow you to constantly spam 2000+ crits instead of 4000-5000+.
    Why would core suffer much from a grossly OP elite ability being adjusted? If you depend on something that is obviously broken, you're in for a lot of disappointment.

    The lich has 5 skills. Nerf the broken one and buff the others.

    You can't avoid the slowest-moving character in the game for literally 10 seconds once every three minutes, assuming they are only focusing on you? Says a lot about your skills, bro.

    Sure I can, but giving someone a nuke and others a feather to fight with is bad balancing.

    A nuke with a dozen options to avoid? On a class where any group with a cleanse/heal prof can just eliminate most of your non-lich damage? Cool story, bro.

    PVP isn't only balanced around elite skills. But it is based on players with higher skill levels than you or I.

    Reviving this ancient discussion just to tell you that this is a grossly facetious defense of an obviously broken skill (especially now that zerker reaper is meta)

    A skill you might get to use twice a match? Sorry you can't figure out how to not be the only person in the match to die during the 15-30 seconds a match they pop lich. Got a gofundme page for that?

    Rampage had an atrocious cooldown and it was still busted. The infrequency doesn't matter if it's a huge problem when it is used.

    Strongly disagree. If you try to facetank a necro in lich, that's 100% on you.

    You don't have to "try to facetank a necro in lich" for lich form to be a problem. That's short-sighted.
    Also, you still haven't addressed the issue of reapers popping lich form out of shroud and firing off 2-3 attacks with quickness that are basically impossible to react to in time.
    And before you give the necro forum-mandated answer of "just pressure reaper lol", the issue isn't that you didn't pressure the reaper enough that they weren't able to get on top of you, it's that even with the pressure, the spec has the tools to safely reach you and unload 12k of lich bolts before you're able to answer it.

    So you personally can't solo a reaper twice a match because of lich? That's your complaint?

    What? I'm talking about teamfighting.

    In a team fight at least two of your team members jump on the lich and kill it in 2 seconds.

    Lich is dangerous if the necro has still a lot of HP to not get oneshot in lich and the target has burned its cooldowns and has no support. But in such a scenario the necro should win the fight anyway.

    A necro on 50% HP popping lich is the best he can do do kill himself.

  • @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:
    I tried it the other day. Spamming 4000+> @Axl.8924 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:
    Lich auto attack needs a reduction in damage by at least 50%.

    That in essence would prob delete lich. 50% is too big a nerf, especially for the cd it already has. You also run the risk of deleting core nec from SPVP completely.

    50% would allow you to constantly spam 2000+ crits instead of 4000-5000+.
    Why would core suffer much from a grossly OP elite ability being adjusted? If you depend on something that is obviously broken, you're in for a lot of disappointment.

    The lich has 5 skills. Nerf the broken one and buff the others.

    You can't avoid the slowest-moving character in the game for literally 10 seconds once every three minutes, assuming they are only focusing on you? Says a lot about your skills, bro.

    Sure I can, but giving someone a nuke and others a feather to fight with is bad balancing.

    A nuke with a dozen options to avoid? On a class where any group with a cleanse/heal prof can just eliminate most of your non-lich damage? Cool story, bro.

    PVP isn't only balanced around elite skills. But it is based on players with higher skill levels than you or I.

    Reviving this ancient discussion just to tell you that this is a grossly facetious defense of an obviously broken skill (especially now that zerker reaper is meta)

    A skill you might get to use twice a match? Sorry you can't figure out how to not be the only person in the match to die during the 15-30 seconds a match they pop lich. Got a gofundme page for that?

    Rampage had an atrocious cooldown and it was still busted. The infrequency doesn't matter if it's a huge problem when it is used.

    Strongly disagree. If you try to facetank a necro in lich, that's 100% on you.

    You don't have to "try to facetank a necro in lich" for lich form to be a problem. That's short-sighted.
    Also, you still haven't addressed the issue of reapers popping lich form out of shroud and firing off 2-3 attacks with quickness that are basically impossible to react to in time.
    And before you give the necro forum-mandated answer of "just pressure reaper lol", the issue isn't that you didn't pressure the reaper enough that they weren't able to get on top of you, it's that even with the pressure, the spec has the tools to safely reach you and unload 12k of lich bolts before you're able to answer it.

    So you personally can't solo a reaper twice a match because of lich? That's your complaint?

    What? I'm talking about teamfighting.

    Then ez stomp for ez win. What's the problem? Lich gets melted FAST.

  • @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:
    I tried it the other day. Spamming 4000+> @Axl.8924 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:
    Lich auto attack needs a reduction in damage by at least 50%.

    That in essence would prob delete lich. 50% is too big a nerf, especially for the cd it already has. You also run the risk of deleting core nec from SPVP completely.

    50% would allow you to constantly spam 2000+ crits instead of 4000-5000+.
    Why would core suffer much from a grossly OP elite ability being adjusted? If you depend on something that is obviously broken, you're in for a lot of disappointment.

    The lich has 5 skills. Nerf the broken one and buff the others.

    You can't avoid the slowest-moving character in the game for literally 10 seconds once every three minutes, assuming they are only focusing on you? Says a lot about your skills, bro.

    Sure I can, but giving someone a nuke and others a feather to fight with is bad balancing.

    A nuke with a dozen options to avoid? On a class where any group with a cleanse/heal prof can just eliminate most of your non-lich damage? Cool story, bro.

    PVP isn't only balanced around elite skills. But it is based on players with higher skill levels than you or I.

    Reviving this ancient discussion just to tell you that this is a grossly facetious defense of an obviously broken skill (especially now that zerker reaper is meta)

    A skill you might get to use twice a match? Sorry you can't figure out how to not be the only person in the match to die during the 15-30 seconds a match they pop lich. Got a gofundme page for that?

    Rampage had an atrocious cooldown and it was still busted. The infrequency doesn't matter if it's a huge problem when it is used.

    Strongly disagree. If you try to facetank a necro in lich, that's 100% on you.

    You don't have to "try to facetank a necro in lich" for lich form to be a problem. That's short-sighted.
    Also, you still haven't addressed the issue of reapers popping lich form out of shroud and firing off 2-3 attacks with quickness that are basically impossible to react to in time.
    And before you give the necro forum-mandated answer of "just pressure reaper lol", the issue isn't that you didn't pressure the reaper enough that they weren't able to get on top of you, it's that even with the pressure, the spec has the tools to safely reach you and unload 12k of lich bolts before you're able to answer it.

    So you personally can't solo a reaper twice a match because of lich? That's your complaint?

    What? I'm talking about teamfighting.

    Then ez stomp for ez win. What's the problem? Lich gets melted FAST.

    I'm not sure if you're inexperienced playing against good players or what, but you're consistently ignoring the actual points of my argument.

  • @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:
    I tried it the other day. Spamming 4000+> @Axl.8924 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:
    Lich auto attack needs a reduction in damage by at least 50%.

    That in essence would prob delete lich. 50% is too big a nerf, especially for the cd it already has. You also run the risk of deleting core nec from SPVP completely.

    50% would allow you to constantly spam 2000+ crits instead of 4000-5000+.
    Why would core suffer much from a grossly OP elite ability being adjusted? If you depend on something that is obviously broken, you're in for a lot of disappointment.

    The lich has 5 skills. Nerf the broken one and buff the others.

    You can't avoid the slowest-moving character in the game for literally 10 seconds once every three minutes, assuming they are only focusing on you? Says a lot about your skills, bro.

    Sure I can, but giving someone a nuke and others a feather to fight with is bad balancing.

    A nuke with a dozen options to avoid? On a class where any group with a cleanse/heal prof can just eliminate most of your non-lich damage? Cool story, bro.

    PVP isn't only balanced around elite skills. But it is based on players with higher skill levels than you or I.

    Reviving this ancient discussion just to tell you that this is a grossly facetious defense of an obviously broken skill (especially now that zerker reaper is meta)

    A skill you might get to use twice a match? Sorry you can't figure out how to not be the only person in the match to die during the 15-30 seconds a match they pop lich. Got a gofundme page for that?

    Rampage had an atrocious cooldown and it was still busted. The infrequency doesn't matter if it's a huge problem when it is used.

    Strongly disagree. If you try to facetank a necro in lich, that's 100% on you.

    You don't have to "try to facetank a necro in lich" for lich form to be a problem. That's short-sighted.
    Also, you still haven't addressed the issue of reapers popping lich form out of shroud and firing off 2-3 attacks with quickness that are basically impossible to react to in time.
    And before you give the necro forum-mandated answer of "just pressure reaper lol", the issue isn't that you didn't pressure the reaper enough that they weren't able to get on top of you, it's that even with the pressure, the spec has the tools to safely reach you and unload 12k of lich bolts before you're able to answer it.

    So you personally can't solo a reaper twice a match because of lich? That's your complaint?

    What? I'm talking about teamfighting.

    Then ez stomp for ez win. What's the problem? Lich gets melted FAST.

    I'm not sure if you're inexperienced playing against good players or what, but you're consistently ignoring the actual points of my argument.

    No, you just keep trying to get me to agree that lich is OP because it's useful under very particular circumstances twice a match. The problem isn't that I don't understand or am not experienced. I'm not the one complaining about getting ez'd by a noob spec. It's that I don't have these huge problems with reapers/lich you seem to. And I'm running a kitten scourge petting zoo. What's your excuse?

  • @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:
    I tried it the other day. Spamming 4000+> @Axl.8924 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:
    Lich auto attack needs a reduction in damage by at least 50%.

    That in essence would prob delete lich. 50% is too big a nerf, especially for the cd it already has. You also run the risk of deleting core nec from SPVP completely.

    50% would allow you to constantly spam 2000+ crits instead of 4000-5000+.
    Why would core suffer much from a grossly OP elite ability being adjusted? If you depend on something that is obviously broken, you're in for a lot of disappointment.

    The lich has 5 skills. Nerf the broken one and buff the others.

    You can't avoid the slowest-moving character in the game for literally 10 seconds once every three minutes, assuming they are only focusing on you? Says a lot about your skills, bro.

    Sure I can, but giving someone a nuke and others a feather to fight with is bad balancing.

    A nuke with a dozen options to avoid? On a class where any group with a cleanse/heal prof can just eliminate most of your non-lich damage? Cool story, bro.

    PVP isn't only balanced around elite skills. But it is based on players with higher skill levels than you or I.

    Reviving this ancient discussion just to tell you that this is a grossly facetious defense of an obviously broken skill (especially now that zerker reaper is meta)

    A skill you might get to use twice a match? Sorry you can't figure out how to not be the only person in the match to die during the 15-30 seconds a match they pop lich. Got a gofundme page for that?

    Rampage had an atrocious cooldown and it was still busted. The infrequency doesn't matter if it's a huge problem when it is used.

    Strongly disagree. If you try to facetank a necro in lich, that's 100% on you.

    You don't have to "try to facetank a necro in lich" for lich form to be a problem. That's short-sighted.
    Also, you still haven't addressed the issue of reapers popping lich form out of shroud and firing off 2-3 attacks with quickness that are basically impossible to react to in time.
    And before you give the necro forum-mandated answer of "just pressure reaper lol", the issue isn't that you didn't pressure the reaper enough that they weren't able to get on top of you, it's that even with the pressure, the spec has the tools to safely reach you and unload 12k of lich bolts before you're able to answer it.

    So you personally can't solo a reaper twice a match because of lich? That's your complaint?

    What? I'm talking about teamfighting.

    Then ez stomp for ez win. What's the problem? Lich gets melted FAST.

    I'm not sure if you're inexperienced playing against good players or what, but you're consistently ignoring the actual points of my argument.

    No, you just keep trying to get me to agree that lich is OP because it's useful under very particular circumstances twice a match. The problem isn't that I don't understand or am not experienced. I'm not the one complaining about getting ez'd by a noob spec. It's that I don't have these huge problems with reapers/lich you seem to. And I'm running a kitten scourge petting zoo. What's your excuse?

    I'm not interested in your agreement, but you're refuting that a skilled necro will find opportunities to utilize lich even against coordinated pressure by saying 'git gud'. You seem to not understand that the issue with lich isn't avoiding it for 10 seconds, it's the 1.5 seconds after they press the button and fire off 20k damage before you can react.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I mean, whats wrong with (2.34) coof autoattack every 1,1s ( less with quickness ) that has 1200 range btw and pierces
    BTW this is grenade barrage level of damage every 1s at 1200 range. Nothing wrong, I mean just los, just dodge, just reflect loool. Just corrupt the stab lool

  • @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:
    I tried it the other day. Spamming 4000+> @Axl.8924 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:
    Lich auto attack needs a reduction in damage by at least 50%.

    That in essence would prob delete lich. 50% is too big a nerf, especially for the cd it already has. You also run the risk of deleting core nec from SPVP completely.

    50% would allow you to constantly spam 2000+ crits instead of 4000-5000+.
    Why would core suffer much from a grossly OP elite ability being adjusted? If you depend on something that is obviously broken, you're in for a lot of disappointment.

    The lich has 5 skills. Nerf the broken one and buff the others.

    You can't avoid the slowest-moving character in the game for literally 10 seconds once every three minutes, assuming they are only focusing on you? Says a lot about your skills, bro.

    Sure I can, but giving someone a nuke and others a feather to fight with is bad balancing.

    A nuke with a dozen options to avoid? On a class where any group with a cleanse/heal prof can just eliminate most of your non-lich damage? Cool story, bro.

    PVP isn't only balanced around elite skills. But it is based on players with higher skill levels than you or I.

    Reviving this ancient discussion just to tell you that this is a grossly facetious defense of an obviously broken skill (especially now that zerker reaper is meta)

    A skill you might get to use twice a match? Sorry you can't figure out how to not be the only person in the match to die during the 15-30 seconds a match they pop lich. Got a gofundme page for that?

    Rampage had an atrocious cooldown and it was still busted. The infrequency doesn't matter if it's a huge problem when it is used.

    Strongly disagree. If you try to facetank a necro in lich, that's 100% on you.

    You don't have to "try to facetank a necro in lich" for lich form to be a problem. That's short-sighted.
    Also, you still haven't addressed the issue of reapers popping lich form out of shroud and firing off 2-3 attacks with quickness that are basically impossible to react to in time.
    And before you give the necro forum-mandated answer of "just pressure reaper lol", the issue isn't that you didn't pressure the reaper enough that they weren't able to get on top of you, it's that even with the pressure, the spec has the tools to safely reach you and unload 12k of lich bolts before you're able to answer it.

    So you personally can't solo a reaper twice a match because of lich? That's your complaint?

    What? I'm talking about teamfighting.

    Then ez stomp for ez win. What's the problem? Lich gets melted FAST.

    I'm not sure if you're inexperienced playing against good players or what, but you're consistently ignoring the actual points of my argument.

    No, you just keep trying to get me to agree that lich is OP because it's useful under very particular circumstances twice a match. The problem isn't that I don't understand or am not experienced. I'm not the one complaining about getting ez'd by a noob spec. It's that I don't have these huge problems with reapers/lich you seem to. And I'm running a kitten scourge petting zoo. What's your excuse?

    I'm not interested in your agreement, but you're refuting that a skilled necro will find opportunities to utilize lich even against coordinated pressure by saying 'git gud'. You seem to not understand that the issue with lich isn't avoiding it for 10 seconds, it's the 1.5 seconds after they press the button and fire off 20k damage before you can react.

    You mean you and your team have a total lack of situational awareness, miss the whole flashy long cast, then stand there eating damage for another 1.5 seconds before reacting? I mean, if that's the case then yeah: git gud. Boiled down to its essence, your statement is that there are THREE seconds per match where a skilled player can dump out some heavy unanswered damage? Am I understanding that correctly? Because if that's your gripe, we're done here and I'm just gonna nose-chortle.

  • @Arklite.4013 said:

    Rampage had an atrocious cooldown and it was still busted. The infrequency doesn't matter if it's a huge problem when it is used.

    The real problem with the Lich form isn't that it does damage, or any of its actual abilities.

    Its that the whining on this forum has been so effective at all but removing necro from viability in the PVP+WvW game that them having one single skill that isn't a joke results in shock that they can actually still do something.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Klaeljanus.7695 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    Rampage had an atrocious cooldown and it was still busted. The infrequency doesn't matter if it's a huge problem when it is used.

    The real problem with the Lich form isn't that it does damage, or any of its actual abilities.

    Its that the whining on this forum has been so effective at all but removing necro from viability in the PVP+WvW game that them having one single skill that isn't a joke results in shock that they can actually still do something.

    I wish mesmer was as as unviable as necro is in wvw or pvp, its not like I saw ~4 necros in each pvp match last time I played, or that half the squads in wvw are made off necros, they are just soooo unviable, nobody touches them.

  • Arklite.4013Arklite.4013 Member ✭✭
    edited September 12, 2020

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:
    I tried it the other day. Spamming 4000+> @Axl.8924 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:
    Lich auto attack needs a reduction in damage by at least 50%.

    That in essence would prob delete lich. 50% is too big a nerf, especially for the cd it already has. You also run the risk of deleting core nec from SPVP completely.

    50% would allow you to constantly spam 2000+ crits instead of 4000-5000+.
    Why would core suffer much from a grossly OP elite ability being adjusted? If you depend on something that is obviously broken, you're in for a lot of disappointment.

    The lich has 5 skills. Nerf the broken one and buff the others.

    You can't avoid the slowest-moving character in the game for literally 10 seconds once every three minutes, assuming they are only focusing on you? Says a lot about your skills, bro.

    Sure I can, but giving someone a nuke and others a feather to fight with is bad balancing.

    A nuke with a dozen options to avoid? On a class where any group with a cleanse/heal prof can just eliminate most of your non-lich damage? Cool story, bro.

    PVP isn't only balanced around elite skills. But it is based on players with higher skill levels than you or I.

    Reviving this ancient discussion just to tell you that this is a grossly facetious defense of an obviously broken skill (especially now that zerker reaper is meta)

    A skill you might get to use twice a match? Sorry you can't figure out how to not be the only person in the match to die during the 15-30 seconds a match they pop lich. Got a gofundme page for that?

    Rampage had an atrocious cooldown and it was still busted. The infrequency doesn't matter if it's a huge problem when it is used.

    Strongly disagree. If you try to facetank a necro in lich, that's 100% on you.

    You don't have to "try to facetank a necro in lich" for lich form to be a problem. That's short-sighted.
    Also, you still haven't addressed the issue of reapers popping lich form out of shroud and firing off 2-3 attacks with quickness that are basically impossible to react to in time.
    And before you give the necro forum-mandated answer of "just pressure reaper lol", the issue isn't that you didn't pressure the reaper enough that they weren't able to get on top of you, it's that even with the pressure, the spec has the tools to safely reach you and unload 12k of lich bolts before you're able to answer it.

    So you personally can't solo a reaper twice a match because of lich? That's your complaint?

    What? I'm talking about teamfighting.

    Then ez stomp for ez win. What's the problem? Lich gets melted FAST.

    I'm not sure if you're inexperienced playing against good players or what, but you're consistently ignoring the actual points of my argument.

    No, you just keep trying to get me to agree that lich is OP because it's useful under very particular circumstances twice a match. The problem isn't that I don't understand or am not experienced. I'm not the one complaining about getting ez'd by a noob spec. It's that I don't have these huge problems with reapers/lich you seem to. And I'm running a kitten scourge petting zoo. What's your excuse?

    I'm not interested in your agreement, but you're refuting that a skilled necro will find opportunities to utilize lich even against coordinated pressure by saying 'git gud'. You seem to not understand that the issue with lich isn't avoiding it for 10 seconds, it's the 1.5 seconds after they press the button and fire off 20k damage before you can react.

    You mean you and your team have a total lack of situational awareness, miss the whole flashy long cast, then stand there eating damage for another 1.5 seconds before reacting? I mean, if that's the case then yeah: git gud. Boiled down to its essence, your statement is that there are THREE seconds per match where a skilled player can dump out some heavy unanswered damage? Am I understanding that correctly? Because if that's your gripe, we're done here and I'm just gonna nose-chortle.

    If I reply again, you'll just oversimplify the conversation until it fits your perspective and dodge the actual issues that have been mentioned by myself and many others in the thread by beating around the bush. It has become clear that you didn’t actually make this thread with the intention of discussing the issues with lich form, but to make a joke about the skill being a l2p issue and be rallied behind by other necro players who rely on the skill.

    Have fun.

  • @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:
    I tried it the other day. Spamming 4000+> @Axl.8924 said:

    @Malcastus.6240 said:
    Lich auto attack needs a reduction in damage by at least 50%.

    That in essence would prob delete lich. 50% is too big a nerf, especially for the cd it already has. You also run the risk of deleting core nec from SPVP completely.

    50% would allow you to constantly spam 2000+ crits instead of 4000-5000+.
    Why would core suffer much from a grossly OP elite ability being adjusted? If you depend on something that is obviously broken, you're in for a lot of disappointment.

    The lich has 5 skills. Nerf the broken one and buff the others.

    You can't avoid the slowest-moving character in the game for literally 10 seconds once every three minutes, assuming they are only focusing on you? Says a lot about your skills, bro.

    Sure I can, but giving someone a nuke and others a feather to fight with is bad balancing.

    A nuke with a dozen options to avoid? On a class where any group with a cleanse/heal prof can just eliminate most of your non-lich damage? Cool story, bro.

    PVP isn't only balanced around elite skills. But it is based on players with higher skill levels than you or I.

    Reviving this ancient discussion just to tell you that this is a grossly facetious defense of an obviously broken skill (especially now that zerker reaper is meta)

    A skill you might get to use twice a match? Sorry you can't figure out how to not be the only person in the match to die during the 15-30 seconds a match they pop lich. Got a gofundme page for that?

    Rampage had an atrocious cooldown and it was still busted. The infrequency doesn't matter if it's a huge problem when it is used.

    Strongly disagree. If you try to facetank a necro in lich, that's 100% on you.

    You don't have to "try to facetank a necro in lich" for lich form to be a problem. That's short-sighted.
    Also, you still haven't addressed the issue of reapers popping lich form out of shroud and firing off 2-3 attacks with quickness that are basically impossible to react to in time.
    And before you give the necro forum-mandated answer of "just pressure reaper lol", the issue isn't that you didn't pressure the reaper enough that they weren't able to get on top of you, it's that even with the pressure, the spec has the tools to safely reach you and unload 12k of lich bolts before you're able to answer it.

    So you personally can't solo a reaper twice a match because of lich? That's your complaint?

    What? I'm talking about teamfighting.

    Then ez stomp for ez win. What's the problem? Lich gets melted FAST.

    I'm not sure if you're inexperienced playing against good players or what, but you're consistently ignoring the actual points of my argument.

    No, you just keep trying to get me to agree that lich is OP because it's useful under very particular circumstances twice a match. The problem isn't that I don't understand or am not experienced. I'm not the one complaining about getting ez'd by a noob spec. It's that I don't have these huge problems with reapers/lich you seem to. And I'm running a kitten scourge petting zoo. What's your excuse?

    I'm not interested in your agreement, but you're refuting that a skilled necro will find opportunities to utilize lich even against coordinated pressure by saying 'git gud'. You seem to not understand that the issue with lich isn't avoiding it for 10 seconds, it's the 1.5 seconds after they press the button and fire off 20k damage before you can react.

    You mean you and your team have a total lack of situational awareness, miss the whole flashy long cast, then stand there eating damage for another 1.5 seconds before reacting? I mean, if that's the case then yeah: git gud. Boiled down to its essence, your statement is that there are THREE seconds per match where a skilled player can dump out some heavy unanswered damage? Am I understanding that correctly? Because if that's your gripe, we're done here and I'm just gonna nose-chortle.

    If I reply again, you'll just oversimplify the conversation until if fits your perspective and dodge the actual issues that have been mentioned by myself and many others in the thread by beating around the bush. It has become clear that you didn’t actually make this thread with the intention of discussing the issues with lich form, but to make a joke about the skill being a l2p issue and be rallied behind by other necro players who rely on the skill.

    Have fun.

    No, you've been given simple solutions to literally everything you've said, so YOU keep getting more and more specific because you don't want to admit that you get outplayed by low-tier players because you won't change up your play style or GASP die MAYBE twice a fight to a rare mechanic that can be easily burned down if you just PAY ATTENTION AND DON'T FACETANK FOR A FEW SECONDS. It's not that I'm being too general. It's that you keep moving the goalposts and mocking the very real answers you're given. If you are mocking half a dozen simple mechanics at a time that will save you and are accessible to pretty much every class, YOU are the problem. Not the ONE mechanic you're complaining can do decent damage twice a match if you just sit there and watch them do it.

    If somebody goes from shroud into lich, you just had all the time in the world to get away from them or kite them away from your team. Light you on fire with flaming autofire and see if you're dumb enough to do anything but run. Because if half your life is gone, you're on fire, and now you decide to charge me, you deserve a face full of lich. I usually see people going the other way with it, though. Chop a chunk of life off of anyone who decides to stand and bang with lich auto before popping shroud and lighting you on fire a couple times and draining your life. XD

    Of course, as I explained multiple times in this thread, I main a scourge petting zoo. I don't have lich OR shroud, so please stop bringing it up like some big "gotcha." You're just too stubborn to take advice and only came here to whine. Go buy more gems and enjoy the game. Stop pretending it's a broken mess just because you only wanna do things one way.

  • Lich form has only ever been an issue during a 1v1 on point. Crit me 3x before i could even find a place to line of sight. Its situational, but could be a free I WIN button if timed right. No other elite has that much impact in such a short time, which is why its either cheesy or useless. Immob spam druid is worse.

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Klaeljanus.7695 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    Rampage had an atrocious cooldown and it was still busted. The infrequency doesn't matter if it's a huge problem when it is used.

    The real problem with the Lich form isn't that it does damage, or any of its actual abilities.

    Its that the whining on this forum has been so effective at all but removing necro from viability in the PVP+WvW game that them having one single skill that isn't a joke results in shock that they can actually still do something.

    I wish mesmer was as as unviable as necro is in wvw or pvp, its not like I saw ~4 necros in each pvp match last time I played, or that half the squads in wvw are made off necros, they are just soooo unviable, nobody touches them.

    At newbie ranks, where people haven't figured out that the singular defence that necro has is always sheer bulk, it can be effective, anywhere else where people remember that CC is a thing though? its useless and always has been except for a few periods here and there.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    When I see lich form if I spam blind it as a d/p thief an auto ALWAYS gets through and does ~66% of my health. It's absurd. This ability is completely broken.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Klaeljanus.7695 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Klaeljanus.7695 said:

    @Arklite.4013 said:

    Rampage had an atrocious cooldown and it was still busted. The infrequency doesn't matter if it's a huge problem when it is used.

    The real problem with the Lich form isn't that it does damage, or any of its actual abilities.

    Its that the whining on this forum has been so effective at all but removing necro from viability in the PVP+WvW game that them having one single skill that isn't a joke results in shock that they can actually still do something.

    I wish mesmer was as as unviable as necro is in wvw or pvp, its not like I saw ~4 necros in each pvp match last time I played, or that half the squads in wvw are made off necros, they are just soooo unviable, nobody touches them.

    At newbie ranks, where people haven't figured out that the singular defence that necro has is always sheer bulk, it can be effective, anywhere else where people remember that CC is a thing though? its useless and always has been except for a few periods here and there.

    Seems effective to me.

  • Klaeljanus.7695Klaeljanus.7695 Member ✭✭
    edited September 23, 2020

    lol. The opponents in that video are so inept that they actually let the reaper run away

    A class that has tiny number of stunbreaks, most of them on 30sec+ cooldowns, and that has exactly One viable escape. And it wasn't even slotted.

    And they let it run away.

    I stand by my statement that all difficulties in killing necromancers in PvP and WvW is purely a L2P issue.

  • snoow.1694snoow.1694 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2020

    No, unblockable fear and 8k ranged autoattacks are the problem here mate. If Anet doesn‘t massively nerf the damage output for Lich Form the community will probably burn HoM to the ground. It‘s not even a topic of discussion - 8K, ranged, 0 cooldown between autoattacks, it should be a no brainer. It‘s time to end the win botton for team fights

  • @snoow.1694 said:
    No, unblockable fear and 8k ranged autoattacks are the problem here mate. If Anet doesn‘t massively nerf the damage output for Lich Form the community will probably burn HoM to the ground. It‘s not even a topic of discussion - 8K, ranged, 0 cooldown between autoattacks, it should be a no brainer. It‘s time to end the win botton for team fights

    Go back and read any of the dozen times in this thread we've already discussed this. If you wish to chime in, please catch up first.

  • Eddbopkins.2630Eddbopkins.2630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2020

    I feel the best way to handle lich is if enough people focus him the second he transforms.....u know he isnt going to dodge, and u know he has no blocks or invulns or barrier, a decently coordinated team would make mince meat of lich every single time.

    A aura share tempest can juat keep at least 8 seconds of reflect up to keep the safty of the team in check from lich.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    I feel the best way to handle lich is if enough people focus him the second he transforms.....u know he isnt going to dodge, and u know he has no blocks or invulns or barrier, a decently coordinated team would make mince meat of lich every single time.

    A aura share tempest can juat keep at least 8 seconds of reflect up to keep the safty of the team in check from lich.

    if your solution to necro being too strong is to gang up several people at then then its not much of a solution.
    in the same boat when you " gang up " on lich, HIS tempest can shocking aura the lich, CC people that come close. Dont forget lich has much more health then any other person, so even trading 2 blows for 1 will make you lose.
    The only real counters are big proj denial ( ele can have it and thief on elite, any other proj denial is mostly wasted, I think necro can afford to take one too but thats about it )
    Moa -> xd
    corrupt ( only necro has it )

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    I feel the best way to handle lich is if enough people focus him the second he transforms.....u know he isnt going to dodge, and u know he has no blocks or invulns or barrier, a decently coordinated team would make mince meat of lich every single time.

    A aura share tempest can juat keep at least 8 seconds of reflect up to keep the safty of the team in check from lich.

    if your solution to necro being too strong is to gang up several people at then then its not much of a solution.
    in the same boat when you " gang up " on lich, HIS tempest can shocking aura the lich, CC people that come close. Dont forget lich has much more health then any other person, so even trading 2 blows for 1 will make you lose.
    The only real counters are big proj denial ( ele can have it and thief on elite, any other proj denial is mostly wasted, I think necro can afford to take one too but thats about it )
    Moa -> xd
    corrupt ( only necro has it )

    You still keep talking like lich is something they can just stay in or pop whenever, and that when they do, it's always YOU they attack. It's literally a few seconds on a three minute cooldown. There are plenty of profs that can be traited to nuke a teamfight that DON'T die to being focused for 2 seconds. And you keep putting together talents that can't be spec'd simultaneously in your "breakdowns."

  • Eddbopkins.2630Eddbopkins.2630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    I feel the best way to handle lich is if enough people focus him the second he transforms.....u know he isnt going to dodge, and u know he has no blocks or invulns or barrier, a decently coordinated team would make mince meat of lich every single time.

    A aura share tempest can juat keep at least 8 seconds of reflect up to keep the safty of the team in check from lich.

    if your solution to necro being too strong is to gang up several people at then then its not much of a solution.
    in the same boat when you " gang up " on lich, HIS tempest can shocking aura the lich, CC people that come close. Dont forget lich has much more health then any other person, so even trading 2 blows for 1 will make you lose.
    The only real counters are big proj denial ( ele can have it and thief on elite, any other proj denial is mostly wasted, I think necro can afford to take one too but thats about it )
    Moa -> xd
    corrupt ( only necro has it )

    The chances of having an aura share tempest is slim to none. But in my case i main ele, and been maining aura share tempest this season. So the counters im talking about are things i do personally. When im in unranked in a 3-5 man group and were all discording and coordinating our attacks like this 5v5 team based game should be lich is ez pickins 100% of the time.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2020

    @Eddbopkins.2630 everything is easy pickings when you coordinate 3v1/5v1. problem starts when its coordinated 3v3/4v4 where you try hard to stop lich, but enemy team tries equally hard to make it hard for you, be it CC so the lich lands, vulnerability so it doest hit for 7k but rather 10, shocking aura etc.
    And I dont speak from exp of playing random unranked games, ofc in random unranked or low ranked game you wont face tempests, or if you do they will suck and wont help anyways. Its about high rank and coordianted teams.
    In random games you wont have 3+ people trait down the lich anyways.

  • snoow.1694snoow.1694 Member ✭✭✭
    edited 12:23PM

    I am all for making the auto attack melee, cutting the damage by 50% and making the fear blockable - please get that broken skill fixed and ignore the proposed „pseudo nerfs“ Necros in this thread are proposing in order to not lose their win button, thanks Anet :]