Revenant, stunbreaks & balance changes — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home Professions Revenant

Revenant, stunbreaks & balance changes

Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭✭

I've been thinking for a while on this issue. What makes revenants unique is their energy management system. Like thiefs, who manage initiative and can spam weapon skills as long as they have it, revenants would be able to use their utilities with nearly no cooldown as long as they had enough energy.

Also, revenants had plenty of access to stun breaks, via their utilities and legend swap (when using invocation), on the downside they had limited cleanse access. Their design intentionally made them strong against cc, and weak against conditions.

However… ANet philosophy regarding gameplay has changed, stunbreak access has gone down across the board, and this includes revenant. No longer can one stunbreak when swapping legend, and the utilities that do it are expensive, meaning that in practice playing aggressively generally means the revenant can't stunbreak at all.

So, because stunbreaks must be scarce, then revenant utilities which do them either have long cooldowns, high energy costs, or both. So why not move the stunbreaks out of utility skills? If none of the revenant skills had a stunbreak, then they could have their costs reduced, and energy management would be mostly used for offensive or utility purposes.

So, where would the stunbreak go if not in utility slots? I think it belongs in the f-keys, as all of those are by design cooldown based.

What do you all think? Is the revenant okay in its current state regarding stunbreak access? Or how else it could be improved?

Comments

  • I think the current state of Rev stunbreaks are (generally) fine. I was initially upset about the Empty Vessel removal like most people, but after playing dozens of daily ATs and both monthlies since the changes i think they’re in a good place. Revenant has enough mobility/evades/blocks/sustain where it doesn’t need Empty Vessel in the current meta game. I think it’s okay that CC is good against Rev since it is rather evasive by nature. If CC wasn’t strong against Rev then Condi Herald would have near 0 drawbacks, which isn’t healthy for the game. Also the removal of Vessel allows for Retribution to be a more viable traitline as well, since invocation becomes less mandatory for its (now nonexistent) built in stunbreak, which in turn increases build diversity within Rev specs which is always nice.

    Overall rev is in a great place, with three strong/meta builds in pvp right now (power & condi Herald, Bunker Ren). I would be hesitant to give Rev any sort of buff right now to any of its currently used legends/weapon sets, especially if other classes get nerfs.

    In terms of stunbreaks, I think Riposting Shadows going from 40 to 35 energy would be okay. I would also consider shortening the case on Rite of the Great Dwarf by .25 or .5s to bring it to either 1s or .75s cast time. Right now it doesn’t always feel worth it to break stun with Rite and then full cast it; in a lot of situations that 1.25s cast time will get you killed if you don’t immediately dodge. Having a faster cast time would make me want to use the skill fully in most situations. Contrast this with Pain Absorption which has a .5s cast time and I nearly always full cast PA when using it as a break stun since it’s rarely detrimental to do so.

    Oh and obligatory “ventari needs a stunbreak.”

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The only issue stunbreaks have right now is the irregular cost of a basic sort of Profession feature in competitive.

    Most Stunbreaks cost 30 Energy, which is fine.
    Shiro and Jalis cost 40 which is pushing how high a skill can cost considering Revenant still has, till this day, this stupid 50 Energy reset on Legend swap.

    And Ventari doesn't even have a stunbreak.

    What needs to be done is to standardize the cost of stunbreaks to just 30 Energy, lowering utility if the stunbreak "does too much" and GIVE VENTARI A STUNBREAK ALREADY.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭✭

    One could argue that one of the reasons to have a dedicated stunbreak f-skill is that currently those utilities are overload in the revenant kits. In assassin it doubles as a dodge/retreat tool, in demon, it absorbs and counters conditions, and in dwarf it grants nonstripable damage reduction (though, as mentioned above, due to cast time it's pretty much impossible to take advantage of both in a single cast), and ventari doesn't even has one due to the nature of the kit (which requires all utilities to have low CD and the ability to reuse them quickly if needed). The cost can't be standardized until all these utilities are of actual equivalent utility.

    Also, it's hard to state that a change like this would be a buff, as it would mean revenant gets access to a single stunbreak on a single cooldown, all other classes can build with multiple stunbreaks in mind, revenant can't. The kit is fixed, so it's not even that they have the freedom to slot offensive tools where the stun break used to go. The only advantage is that the stunbreak would be available regardless of energy, as long as the CD is up, which probably isn't really that much since there are some complaints that the game is heavy cc oriented currently, for which a single stunbreak hardly suffices.

  • @Skotlex.7580 said:
    Also, it's hard to state that a change like this would be a buff, as it would mean revenant gets access to a single stunbreak on a single cooldown, all other classes can build with multiple stunbreaks in mind, revenant can't.

    If that’s the proposal then it’s a hard disagree from me. Having a single stunbreak on a CD would be even more limiting than what we have now. Currently, we can have multiple stunbreaks, but instead of “building for it” we have to plan for it. For example, it’s perfectly feasible to play defensively and pop Pain Absorption once or twice and then swap legends and pop Gaze of Darkness if you need to break stun 2-3 times. Removing the stunbreaks off of utilities and fusing them into one F skill wouldn’t be sufficient and honestly would be a dumbing down of the class overall by limiting player freedoms (in terms of how to prioritize spending energy). The profession is about planning, tactics, and flexibility allowing the user to choose what they need/want to use when they want it, provided they plan for it accordingly. This is the reason CD increases are sometimes questionable balance decisions a lot of times for Rev since it reduces the choices that Rev is allowed to spend energy on at any given time.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 28, 2020

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    Currently, we can have multiple stunbreaks, but instead of “building for it” we have to plan for it. For example, it’s perfectly feasible to play defensively and pop Pain Absorption once or twice and then swap legends and pop Gaze of Darkness if you need to break stun 2-3 times.

    having a stunbreak available means always having 30 energy in store (or up to 40 depending on legend), or swapping and using one right away. Having 30 energy in reserve, when a legend swap sets it to 50 (for most cases) means.... as you mentioned, playing defensively. No other class needs to play defensively in order to have their stun break available.

    Perhaps some other solution should be in order. Like having legend swap add energy instead of setting it to 50. Or on the very least change Jalis's one from the elite to the road brick one (since that's the most problematic of them all, using it usually means having to cancel it with a dodge, costing additional resources...). :/

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I agree with @LucianTheAngelic.7054. If you are having with CC, you have options:

    • Trait Charged Mists. Works great with anything but Glint builds.
    • Use Jalis.
    • Go core for a bigger energy pool.

    In general I'd say the class is at a pretty good spot right now. Empty Vessel being removed definitely disrupts the flow, but the class is more fairly punishable now and fewer available stunbreaks is something that all classes are having to adapt to. Keep in mind that other classes do have to play defensively still as their stunbreaks generally have medium to large cooldowns. If you blow your stunbreaks on another class, you are forced to wait for the cooldown to drop. Ventari though? I agree with the others that it needs a stunbreak.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2020

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 i dont mind Ventari not having a stunbreaker......

    On the other hand even not using deamon for anti-condi support, Rev overall has quite some aoe condi cleanse capabilities :\ but maybe they could tweak Ventari elite skill, it creates alot of orbs when u cast tablet and destrooy it this can be spammed but its useless and a 10 condi cleansed(at 100 energy) as much i try to do it rarelly or almost never worked.....

    This elite skill could be cganged for something more suportish with stunbreaker than burn ur health for nothing >_>

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    The only issue stunbreaks have right now is the irregular cost of a basic sort of Profession feature in competitive.

    Most Stunbreaks cost 30 Energy, which is fine.
    Shiro and Jalis cost 40 which is pushing how high a skill can cost considering Revenant still has, till this day, this stupid 50 Energy reset on Legend swap.

    And Ventari doesn't even have a stunbreak.

    What needs to be done is to standardize the cost of stunbreaks to just 30 Energy, lowering utility if the stunbreak "does too much" and GIVE VENTARI A STUNBREAK ALREADY.

    I would rather have 1 stunbreak on Legend swap instead of legend skills.
    Being unable to use abilities because stunbreak drains a third of your energy is terrible.
    On Legend swap at least, you would have more energy for other use.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Jalis has permanent access to stability if traited/played well. Glint has one of the best breakstuns in the game. Mallyx and Shiro breakstuns are expensive, but Mallyx is bad outside teamfigths and stopped caring on Shiro months ago. Ventari is the worst healer in the game due the crappy tablet mechanics, no surprise how unpopular is at every game mode, and Kalla was nothing but at buff in numbers to sell PoF to PvE Revenants (remember: was originally designed with the breakstun in the heal skill), and will be abandoned as soon as the next expansion arrives with the new over-bloated, overpowered specs arrives (to sell expansions).

    So seems fine to me. After 3 moths paying only bunker condis in PvP I'm now running a Glint/Jalis bunker, having fun at the far control point even when I lose.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    The only issue stunbreaks have right now is the irregular cost of a basic sort of Profession feature in competitive.

    Most Stunbreaks cost 30 Energy, which is fine.
    Shiro and Jalis cost 40 which is pushing how high a skill can cost considering Revenant still has, till this day, this stupid 50 Energy reset on Legend swap.

    And Ventari doesn't even have a stunbreak.

    What needs to be done is to standardize the cost of stunbreaks to just 30 Energy, lowering utility if the stunbreak "does too much" and GIVE VENTARI A STUNBREAK ALREADY.

    I would rather have 1 stunbreak on Legend swap instead of legend skills.
    Being unable to use abilities because stunbreak drains a third of your energy is terrible.
    On Legend swap at least, you would have more energy for other use.

    You can make that argument sure, but on the flip side that means in order to access your stunbreak you need to leave your current legend's kit. Ventari has experienced this from day one: want a stunbreak? Say goodbye to the bulk of your heals. It just doesn't feel good. Just legendswap to Ventari to heal up your team? Oh what's that, a 3s stun? Just gotta sit there and take it or blow your energy keeping yourself alive. I highly prefer the current implementation. It promotes and enables more adaptable and more skillful play and rewards proper energy management.

  • @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    The only issue stunbreaks have right now is the irregular cost of a basic sort of Profession feature in competitive.

    Most Stunbreaks cost 30 Energy, which is fine.
    Shiro and Jalis cost 40 which is pushing how high a skill can cost considering Revenant still has, till this day, this stupid 50 Energy reset on Legend swap.

    And Ventari doesn't even have a stunbreak.

    What needs to be done is to standardize the cost of stunbreaks to just 30 Energy, lowering utility if the stunbreak "does too much" and GIVE VENTARI A STUNBREAK ALREADY.

    I would rather have 1 stunbreak on Legend swap instead of legend skills.
    Being unable to use abilities because stunbreak drains a third of your energy is terrible.
    On Legend swap at least, you would have more energy for other use.

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 already did a good job explaining why this would be bad for the class, but thought I'd add my opinions as well.

    The problem with this is that in some cases you need to/are able to stunbreak multiple times. If all stunbreaks were tied to legend swap, you wouldn't have that possibility anymore, which would be bad since it directly limits what Revenant can do when CC'ed. Rev is largely about choosing what to do with your energy, so keeping choices (like using Pain Absorption twice in a row, for example) is incredibly healthy. Also stunbreaks shouldn't be associated with the energy regen mechanic. It only worked with Empty Vessel because we also had the Legend stunbreaks as well, but if we only had Empty Vessel and no other stunbreaks, then you'd be forced to either blow your stunbreak early to get energy (leaving you even more vulnerable than now) or wait for yourself to get stunned before swapping, potentially wasting energy in your current legend by resetting the cap to 50. This wouldn't promote healthy gameplay for the class.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    That's also true. What would you suggest to give Ventari a stun break ? Or would you not ?

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    Also stunbreaks shouldn't be associated with the energy regen mechanic. It only worked with Empty Vessel because we also had the Legend stunbreaks as well, but if we only had Empty Vessel and no other stunbreaks, then you'd be forced to either blow your stunbreak early to get energy (leaving you even more vulnerable than now) or wait for yourself to get stunned before swapping, potentially wasting energy in your current legend by resetting the cap to 50. This wouldn't promote healthy gameplay for the class.

    Maybe.... there could be a unique f-skill used to stunbreak, and it's cooldown gets reduced/recharged when swapping legends?

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    Rev's situation is an odd one.

    Typically, for a stun break, you want it to be readily available when you need it. This works well for normal classes who just have 1/3 utilities as a stun break that is independent of the rest of their kit and thus can be used when they need it.

    If another class feels it needs more stun breaks, they can replace another utility with another stun break.

    For Rev, due to the energy mechanic, their stun breaks are not always readily available because you might get CC'd while you're low on energy. The upside to this is that they have more potential access to their stunbreaks due to low CD's and they just need the required energy to use them.

    However, because Rev's are stuck with a single set of utilities for each Legend, having a skill in each Legend that is do nothing but Stun Break is not an appealing design, thus this leads to additional effects being added to their stun break skills (Mallyx provides Resistance and Condi transfer, Shiro removes movement impairments and gives Fury, Jalis gives unrippable 50% damage reduction, Glint provides Blind+Reveal+10 stack Vuln and Kalla provides Stability + damage + Daze)

    These added effects of course, raise the energy cost of said skills, making them have even lower availability...

    Thus, the ideal solution would be to move Rev stunbreak to an independent F skill (I guess F5? Due to Kalla utilizing F2-4) which would allow it to emulate other classes Utilities in that it would be a set CD independent of other class resources. The cost being that unlike other classes, Rev wouldn't be able to slot in multiple Stun Breaks for the advantage of still having a full 3 utility slots that have actual skills in.

    Of course, whether or not to do that would depend a lot on how the playerbase overall feels about the situation. Do they want an always accessible Stun Break via an F skill? Or do they want the higher potential number of Stun Breaks from having low CD utilities with high energy costs?

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2, 2020

    @Skotlex.7580 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    Also stunbreaks shouldn't be associated with the energy regen mechanic. It only worked with Empty Vessel because we also had the Legend stunbreaks as well, but if we only had Empty Vessel and no other stunbreaks, then you'd be forced to either blow your stunbreak early to get energy (leaving you even more vulnerable than now) or wait for yourself to get stunned before swapping, potentially wasting energy in your current legend by resetting the cap to 50. This wouldn't promote healthy gameplay for the class.

    Maybe.... there could be a unique f-skill used to stunbreak, and it's cooldown gets reduced/recharged when swapping legends?

    I think that would be possible, but they’d have to rebalance the existing break stuns’s Energy costs to account for the loss of break stun on those skills. And more importantly which F skill would it be, because they’d have to balance/change functionality/change locations for other F2/3/4 as well. And if the new “break stun F skill” was too costly then it would probably be better to just keep it as is.
    You’d lose the ability to break stun quickly, multiple times in a row as well, which is something you can still do with Pain Absorption and Riposting Shadows if you have the energy for it.

    Also the benefit of the current system for break stuns is that they can balance break stuns individually for each legend, so if break stun becomes a problem on one legend, but not another, they can nerf it accordingly (or buff it) without affecting other legends.

    It’s a tricky question/proposal because a lot of changes would need to be made to make sure it wouldn’t be too harsh of a nerf or a buff, so I’m currently in camp “leave it as is, it already works fine”

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If I'd have to share the biggest secret of Revenant, it would be;

    Never take first Initiative without some form of sustain to back you up. (Stability, Stunbreak, Evade or Legend Swap.)

    Sometimes, you're better off waiting for a CC then stunbreak in the current Legend to Swap it and have plenty to be offensive with.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • pninak.1069pninak.1069 Member ✭✭✭

    in principle the plan to rebalance stunbreak on rev seems fine, but I doubt you really wanna lose them when most legend got atleast one stunbreak available. biggest nerf would hit mallyx. because you lose an no cd stunbreak even if the costs for it are pretty high. I think rev has biggest on demand stunbreak compared to other classes. and you are pretty good against condi too with a alacrigade being able to ignore 4/5 of all condi dmg if he uses mallyx skills frequently.