Pistol thief

The old but new obnoxios "condie" thief build, good times are ahead, lets see how long Anet takes to fix this little gem of a build.

Hopefully they don't, it's annoying but not anywhere near op. Imagine we nerfed builds cuz their annoying lmao oh that's right that's what 90% of this games pvp community does instead of trying to get gud lol.Man I really hope this team starts ignoring these forums or pvp just gonna keep bleeding players and be totally dead by 2021.

What's wrong with that build? Did it win a tournament?

I played that around 2014 and it was quite viable, but hardcountered by ranged burst. Is there something new to the build?

I think the problem is 2 initiative for the second part of its dual ability is too cheap, especially when it procs the poison trait line from deadly arts, IMO they should make the first part of the dual ability cost 3 initiative and second part cost 3, rather than 4-2. So its a very slight nerf. This would basically make the first cast of shadow strike/repeater cost the same, but extra casts will cost just 1 more initiative, to reduce the spam ability or making thieves think a little hard before they start smashing their 3 key after shadow strike. I did post in a different thread that thieves don't really have any spammable abilities anymore, but I didn't realize repeater only costs 2 initiative, making it extremely strong with the DA trait lines. I don't think Anet needs to gut it though at all and not target other things like the deadly art trait lines like previous patches and focus more on the weapon set, looking at you S/D

My other idea is to count the repeater as the dual ability of the shadow strike to not proc any more poison procs and wait for it to reset to proc it again from the DA traitline, same with Sword/Dagger to keep the same synergy.

@KrHome.1920 said:Did it win a tournament?Both of EU mAT finalist teams had a condi thief

Any build played in mAT's at some point automatically started becoming synonymous with OP.

Seen a few thieves with this build already, all of 'em got their arses slapped handily. I don't see an issue. Seems very niche and more of a counter-pick.

If you can see it coming and actually have cleanses, it's not a problem.

Can we not nerf a build that is actually performing decently that has counters? The P/D build for example isn't as slippery as a D/P thief if you you know they are around. Also it does not have as much condi cleanse built in as D/P so it lives and dies by the condi.

I've played this build since they made the change to P/D 3 and gotten pretty far on NA with it. Its only counters are reflects / projectile hate (mainly from weaver, but other than that weavers are easy to burst down with the build), and condi core necro. Core necro got nerfed a bit so there's going to be a lot more running around now.

The build is way too strong. Way too much stealth access and the sneak attack on pistol 1 does a lot of damage when combo-ed right. The build needs a nerf in the form of reducing bleed duration on P/D 3 and the sneak attack, as well as a cast time on the first skill for P/D 3 (it's basically instant cast as long as you aren't CC-ed). That will allow some counterplay when a melee class gets in range, and make spamming 3 less lucrative.

As it stands now it is very easy to win a 1v2 with in the hands of a good player

@"Topher.5631" said:I've played this build since they made the change to P/D 3 and gotten pretty far on NA with it. Its only counters are reflects / projectile hate (mainly from weaver, but other than that weavers are easy to burst down with the build), and condi core necro. Core necro got nerfed a bit so there's going to be a lot more running around now.

The build is way too strong. Way too much stealth access and the sneak attack on pistol 1 does a lot of damage when combo-ed right. The build needs a nerf in the form of reducing bleed duration on P/D 3 and the sneak attack, as well as a cast time on the first skill for P/D 3 (it's basically instant cast as long as you aren't CC-ed). That will allow some counterplay when a melee class gets in range, and make spamming 3 less lucrative.

As it stands now it is very easy to win a 1v2 with in the hands of a good player

post the build that you are talking about and explain the "too much" portions

Make repeater a 1 time cast after each shadow strike

Very slight variation, but it still plays the same.
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PSwEcEWoMBmHLhxxKxU66sVD-z5IeKZKC6VCEwQoiFgAHA

On this one you get stealth from the heal and steal instead of just heal, but you could combo that with Steal + Dagger 5 on the metabattle build and get the same result

The meta burst for this build is Shortbow 4 on the target, steal + stealth (through dagger 5 or the steal itself), sneak attack from the pistol (combo finishes with the poison field for more poison), then 3 3 (which also combos with the poison). That's enough to knock down a lot of people and takes about 4 seconds to execute from the time the poison hits the ground, without using any venoms (try it in the FFA arena). It's very low risk because you still have all your utilities to kite while your burst comes off CD in another 16 seconds, not to mention P/D 3 to get away from anyone who closes the gap.

Even if you don't land the full burst, there aren't a lot of options for the enemy to counterplay. If they're melee you kite with 3 or 5. If they're ranged, you have enough distance from the 3 skill to LoS them, or stealth if you can't manage that.

That's why the first skill in the 3 chain needs an actual cast time, so that way they can be CC-ed by something to allow counterplay, as well as reduce the bleed duration on the second one in the chain. This allows the opponent to have a little bit more freedom with condi clears and puts more emphasis on combo-ing it right in order to get good results, instead of 3333 spam being a safe choice. In addition, the second skill in the chain only costs 2 initiative, which is way more cost effective for damage than any other skill that thief has, so that needs to be increased too.

@Crab Fear.1624 said:Make repeater a 1 time cast after each shadow strike

Also a good idea, that would encourage some sort of rotation

Hows this build vs condi harald?

Countered by condi herald / necro and a little rough vs ranger, same as the one on metabattle

@Topher.5631 said:Countered by condi herald / necro and a little rough vs ranger, same as the one on metabattle

Yeah I figured malyx f2 prob hurt bad throwing the condis back in the thief's face lol

@Topher.5631 said:I've played this build since they made the change to P/D 3 and gotten pretty far on NA with it. Its only counters are reflects / projectile hate (mainly from weaver, but other than that weavers are easy to burst down with the build), and condi core necro. Core necro got nerfed a bit so there's going to be a lot more running around now.

The build is way too strong. Way too much stealth access and the sneak attack on pistol 1 does a lot of damage when combo-ed right. The build needs a nerf in the form of reducing bleed duration on P/D 3 and the sneak attack, as well as a cast time on the first skill for P/D 3 (it's basically instant cast as long as you aren't CC-ed). That will allow some counterplay when a melee class gets in range, and make spamming 3 less lucrative.

As it stands now it is very easy to win a 1v2 with in the hands of a good player

You're saying a thief build needs to be nerfed... if they can +1 with it?

@"Topher.5631" said:Very slight variation, but it still plays the same.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PSwEcEWoMBmHLhxxKxU66sVD-z5IeKZKC6VCEwQoiFgAHA

On this one you get stealth from the heal and steal instead of just heal, but you could combo that with Steal + Dagger 5 on the metabattle build and get the same result

The meta burst for this build is Shortbow 4 on the target, steal + stealth (through dagger 5 or the steal itself), sneak attack from the pistol (combo finishes with the poison field for more poison), then 3 3 (which also combos with the poison). That's enough to knock down a lot of people and takes about 4 seconds to execute from the time the poison hits the ground, without using any venoms (try it in the FFA arena). It's very low risk because you still have all your utilities to kite while your burst comes off CD in another 16 seconds, not to mention P/D 3 to get away from anyone who closes the gap.

Even if you don't land the full burst, there aren't a lot of options for the enemy to counterplay. If they're melee you kite with 3 or 5. If they're ranged, you have enough distance from the 3 skill to LoS them, or stealth if you can't manage that.

That's why the first skill in the 3 chain needs an actual cast time, so that way they can be CC-ed by something to allow counterplay, as well as reduce the bleed duration on the second one in the chain. This allows the opponent to have a little bit more freedom with condi clears and puts more emphasis on combo-ing it right in order to get good results, instead of 3333 spam being a safe choice. In addition, the second skill in the chain only costs 2 initiative, which is way more cost effective for damage than any other skill that thief has, so that needs to be increased too.

Lol you linked a necro build.

Adding a cast time to Shadowstrike is silly. It’s a single teleport meant for kiting. It locks the thief out of teleporting again for 4 seconds. There are so many gap closers possible in that time frame that it isn’t that powerful of a kiting skill (especially compared to using sword).

Repeater does lower damage and has longer channel than Stealth Attack. It interacts well with Deadly Ambition but compare a build (once you link one) using DA and not using DA. There is poison damage there but it isn’t that much higher than without taking the trait. I don’t think increasing initiative cost (which is a lazy way to balance) is the solution.

Is this hypothetical build OP or merely somewhat effective? Just because a thief is able to join other professions at a competitive level doesn’t make it worthy of being nerfed until none play it.

@darren.1064 said:

@Topher.5631 said:I've played this build since they made the change to P/D 3 and gotten pretty far on NA with it. Its only counters are reflects / projectile hate (mainly from weaver, but other than that weavers are easy to burst down with the build), and condi core necro. Core necro got nerfed a bit so there's going to be a lot more running around now.

The build is way too strong. Way too much stealth access and the sneak attack on pistol 1 does a lot of damage when combo-ed right. The build needs a nerf in the form of reducing bleed duration on P/D 3 and the sneak attack, as well as a cast time on the first skill for P/D 3 (it's basically instant cast as long as you aren't CC-ed). That will allow some counterplay when a melee class gets in range, and make spamming 3 less lucrative.

As it stands now it is very easy to win a 1v2 with in the hands of a good player

Where did you get that from ?I've played almost 6k games on thief and the next closest is 2.7, so I don't want thief to be useless

@"saerni.2584" said:Lol you linked a necro build.

Adding a cast time to Shadowstrike is silly. It’s a single teleport meant for kiting. It locks the thief out of teleporting again for 4 seconds. There are so many gap closers possible in that time frame that it isn’t that powerful of a kiting skill (especially compared to using sword).

Repeater does lower damage and has longer channel than Stealth Attack. It interacts well with Deadly Ambition but compare a build (once you link one) using DA and not using DA. There is poison damage there but it isn’t that much higher than without taking the trait. I don’t think increasing initiative cost (which is a lazy way to balance) is the solution.

Is this hypothetical build OP or merely somewhat effective? Just because a thief is able to join other professions at a competitive level doesn’t make it worthy of being nerfed until none play it.

In my defense it was late at night when I did that lol, and I think the way I got to the website was using the link from a friend who was theory crafting on necro /facepalmhttp://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAoiVlNw2YiMLGJO2OrrdA-zZoOkCUApIDyUI40B

The reason shadowstrike needs a cast time is so it gives the opponent time to react. There are gap closers sure, but those are all way lower cooldown than shadowstrike. The thief can keep up pressure way longer than they should be able to just because it has no cooldown, only a 4 second lock-out of the skill. A cast time would allow counterplay and mind games to make the thief waste ini, so they'd have to be smarter about using it.

Repeater has enough damage to keep most people on their toes, plus the fact that it only costs 2 initiative and a 1 second cast time means that in effect it only costs 1 initiative because they recuperate one by the end of the channel. That's wayway too spammy, even by thief standards. I'm not saying that it needs an initiative increase, I agree with you it's lazy balance, but the bleed duration needs to be cut down a bit, or if the teleport distance from shadowstrike is cut then they would still be in very close proximity to the target while doing a 1s channel, which would leave them more vulnerable to counterplay.

And i'd like to re-iterate, i'm not a random who was strolling along in unranked one day, got ganked by the build, rage quit, and came to the forums to qq about it. I've played this build for at least 8 months now and it is too strong. I've participated in 1v1 tournaments and only lost to a legend ranked player after he put on a bunch condi clears (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/469227197?filter=all&sort=time starting at 6:30, 30:20, 53:00). The reason thief is not up there with other professions in ranked is because it requires close communication with the team in order to play effectively, or the other team could run 5 bruiser classes, play 2 points and basically hard counter by comp alone. It's not a build thing, it's just the nature of thief that causes it to be out of the meta more often than not. 1v1 it can hold its own if played right, just like any class can. However, this build shuts out too much potential for the opponent to counterplay effectively, to the point where only 2 meta builds counter. Thief should be top tier, and I would love for it to be. I've been a thief main since HoT came out, but this build is unhealthy for the game as a whole

@Topher.5631 said:

@"saerni.2584" said:Lol you linked a necro build.

Adding a cast time to Shadowstrike is silly. It’s a single teleport meant for kiting. It locks the thief out of teleporting again for 4 seconds. There are so many gap closers possible in that time frame that it isn’t that powerful of a kiting skill (especially compared to using sword).

Repeater does lower damage and has longer channel than Stealth Attack. It interacts well with Deadly Ambition but compare a build (once you link one) using DA and not using DA. There is poison damage there but it isn’t that much higher than without taking the trait. I don’t think increasing initiative cost (which is a lazy way to balance) is the solution.

Is this hypothetical build OP or merely somewhat effective? Just because a thief is able to join other professions at a competitive level doesn’t make it worthy of being nerfed until none play it.

Don’t worry I figured it was a mistake (and know where you come from as a long time thief player. I just come at this as a thief who has played variants of P/D builds since basically release.

The teleport distance is pretty important to the survivabilty of this kind of build. So I wouldn’t cut that otherwise you really change the play style of the set.

As to damage on repeater, the idea when this was implemented was to give P/D more damage through a flip skill. At the time you had the ability to spam Shadowstrike But the set didn’t do a lot of damage at all (compared to everyone else). Obviously, damage went down for everyone and repeater still does the lower but more reliable ranged pressure.

I don’t think Repeater does too much damage balanced against the current meta. Your counter play has more to do with projectiles being easy to block, reflect/block/LoS, as well as your ability to gap close after Shadowstrike when the thief has to retreat. A thief spamming Repeater won’t do enough damage before someone closes the distance (600 is very manageable for most builds) or starts taking ranged pressure to the point it has to disengage.

Well just play this exactly Build and you will actually dont loose most 1v1s while only running arount and spaming the shadow 1 skill.The Build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAoiVlFw2YHsQ2JO2OrrbA-zZoOlUUAZKC6VIEvEwxDA

PS. For real this thief build need a realy hard nerf .... and all the ones that said "just l2p" have no idea how fcking strong this build is .... i mean you could perma load spam and oneshot enemys while porting and stealth around.

every time someone gets killed by thief he starts complaining and thief gets nerfed again because of the vocal minority and thieves have to make new builds out of the scraps they have left, then someone gets killed by thief again and the circle goes on

just git gud instead of nerfing a class you don't like

@krz.1327 oh im just playing thief myself but condition thief pretty hard overperforming atm and need some balanced nerf (only rly CONDI thief not the power one)