The REAL balance problem (my 2 cents, yours?)

Hi,

Im not using to write on forums or... whatever like this :) just found that anet is patching and patching... and people/players/us are finding the balance issue worst everytime.I must admit that was happy at the beggining of the last patch but...

The problem seems to be the same as ever, in one word "cheesy". This is not a problem about how powerful warrior, or holo, or mesmer are, is about concept.At the first we could blame the players, us, because we are not playing for fun, we are playing to get the most easy win with the less effort... but if you think, anet, and the way they are balancing the classes is allowing (if not powering) that playstyle.

Why condis are so powerful? easy, dont matter how fast you could clean them, once you did it, they are reapplied again, just take a look to mirage, for example, the cooldowns of the axe and how it can spam easily bleed, torment, confusion...So what happens with this? first you dont need to be a good player, cause you dont need to think a lot, just learn a rotation and spam, and being a good player, or using your brain doesn't mean you are gonna better results, it depends on how cheesy your build is.Following that example take a look the meta, you will find that is always about powerful/aoe/spamable skills.

On other side, just a note: Human brain is "limited" to the things it can do, if you take a 2 players with the same skill leve, the one that have to pay less attention to the enviroment, or think about what is happening gonna win.This is creating another problem: Bots. When you dont need to take any decision, bots can do as any other player (maybe better cause they can process time faster and better). As you can notice there are lot of bots and are always using the same specs.

So, as said, I found is not a classes issue, or just reducing/increasing the damage, cooldowns and quality changes (that means, changes that affect the what skills do, not only +/- values) will help to solve this: So if you want to use a powerful skill that is a game changer? it needs a cooldown, nothing that lets you spam tons of damage, in a second, with aoe effect and is easily reapplied.

I know devs think about to improve the game experience, just saying this because, maybe, the actual path is not the best for game balance.

What do you think?

GW2 pvp is The leaning tower of....cheesa?

get it cause people rely on leaning on the the cheesiest builds to prosper

I crack myself up

@"judgebeo.3976" said:At the first we could blame the players, us, because we are not playing for fun, we are playing to get the most easy win with the less effort... but if you think, anet, and the way they are balancing the classes is allowing (if not powering) that playstyle.

I play for fun. The more the game balances so that each class/profession is balanced towards each other (good in 1 vs. 1) but only allowing for one or few specific builds to be good in that situation to be balanced ... the less fun it is. (Fun can come from trying different stuff and playing different builds and using skills you like.)

Of course full glass cannon should be able to kill others quickly while dying pretty fast as well (because of own low health). But let's say if glass cannon was completely inviable cause all bunkers would just "outbunker" your huge damage while slowly killing your low health ... that would be making that one build inunteresting. (While in first case it could have been balanced if glasscannon still can kill bunker.) You wouldn't play glass cannon even if it was "fun". (I. e. it removes the fun from PvP for people that like to play glass cannon. Less players in PvP because they don't play it anymore.)

People have different concepts of what "balanced" means. Professional highly skilled players of course want ot get the most out of their class and always play "META" regardless of what is "fun" and for them 1 build is enough as long as each glass has 1 build that performs 100 percent balanced in 1 vs. 1 compared to each other class.

Other care for the map and game mode. They think about stuff like "mobilty" and don't want certain classes to have too much. (Like thief.) Or at least want that classe to have a big trade-off for mobility. (Balancing combat stuff with other stuff with a 1 vs. 1 in mind. Thief is strong in mobilty. But I can just kill our outbunker him cause he "jumps around doing nothing except capping/decapping".)

I personally like - even thouh matchmaking with queus that don't allow for premad 5 man teams is a problem here - if different professions are imbalanced on purpose in 1 vs. 1 comparison. (Combat or even 1 vs. 1. comparing them an looking at stuff like mobility.)

5 vs. 5 each team playing same comopsotion (same professions on both team) it would be balanced even if the thief hat huge mobilty and could 1-shot bunkers ... as long as each team had only 1 thief it would be balanced. For example. I like that kind of balancing. Classes that are allowed to be unique and strong in something. Certain combinations of 2-3 builds (players) that work nice together.

Game would need to focus on promoting team play more. LFG tool more advertised and 5 man team queue allowed. (Yeah it is in unranked but people care more about ranked.)

It may be too harsh to call it a failed balance patch, but it was disappointing because ANET took 2 shortcuts that almost ALWAYS tick off the playerbase and show laziness.

1. They only nerfed and didn't buff anything. Minor nerfing of some things was needed, but not only did they leave stuff out to nerf...they forgot to BUFF the specs and things that were underperforming. That's no way to INCREASE interest in the game...nerfs and no buffs is lazy and short-sighted.

2. They just REMOVED stuff from the game versus taking the time to balance it. There is nothing about those amulets that are inherently unfair UNLESS you have screwed up something in the core design of the game. On top of that, they clearly didn't use much foresight either. Just recently, they spent a huge amount of resources reducing damage in the game that INCLUDED the previous amulets in the game that increased survivability. Now, they are sabotaging their own work a month ago by removing amulets that were inevitably included in their balance equation. Thus, fixing one issue lazily will likely lead to even bigger problems than they solved.

Again, even if deleting the amulets solves a problem, it's just like doing nerfs with no buffs...it's a terrible way to try and increase interest in the game.

The same thing happened with underwater combat in pvp. Instead of FIXING the core problems (or even living with the imbalance), they just DELETE programming which is ALWAYS disappointing to the existing playerbase and does ZERO to attract new people.

People just don't want to learn to fight against things there is no real cheesy thing, there are overturned things, sometimes overpowered things

But in general people are just lazy, and run with their head always against the wall and say "this is cheesy and op" instead of looking what the enemy is doing and adept to that

@SPESHAL.9106 said:It may be too harsh to call it a failed balance patch, but it was disappointing because ANET took 2 shortcuts that almost ALWAYS tick off the playerbase and show laziness.

1. They only nerfed and didn't buff anything. Minor nerfing of some things was needed, but not only did they leave stuff out to nerf...they forgot to BUFF the specs and things that were underperforming. That's no way to INCREASE interest in the game...nerfs and no buffs is lazy and short-sighted.

2. They just REMOVED stuff from the game versus taking the time to balance it. There is nothing about those amulets that are inherently unfair UNLESS you have screwed up something in the core design of the game. On top of that, they clearly didn't use much foresight either. Just recently, they spent a huge amount of resources reducing damage in the game that INCLUDED the previous amulets in the game that increased survivability. Now, they are sabotaging their own work a month ago by removing amulets that were inevitably included in their balance equation. Thus, fixing one issue lazily will likely lead to even bigger problems than they solved.

Again, even if deleting the amulets solves a problem, it's just like doing nerfs with no buffs...it's a terrible way to try and increase interest in the game.

The same thing happened with underwater combat in pvp. Instead of FIXING the core problems (or even living with the imbalance), they just DELETE programming which is ALWAYS disappointing to the existing playerbase and does ZERO to attract new people.

This ^

The real balance problem is only one: what some people wait balance. This is wrong. It should be renamed "CHANGES", and make absolutely valid some class build total domination, 1 vs 3 easy.We have perfect mmr rating system, so theres is no any reason keep attentions if some class super string or super fail. After few wind on lose the will get same level members ..

Call it "Skill/trait changes", and make rules, that there is no any point to try make classes sames.

@Luthan.5236 said:

@"judgebeo.3976" said:At the first we could blame the players, us, because we are not playing for fun, we are playing to get the most easy win with the less effort... but if you think, anet, and the way they are balancing the classes is allowing (if not powering) that playstyle.

This is "another" pretty interesting point of view. ANET says that they want to kill the "trinity", but the more the game grows the more it recalls that trinity all that present in gw1. that was, if you go to a random arena, and your team got a monk, while the others dont... you already won 95% actually i found that the matchmaking is a bit "crazy". Is not only that you find a "player skill" balanced/unbalanced. There are the bots (as said on my first post) and the composition of the teams that, having a lot of paper vs rock vs scissor, all together, can be quite fustrating.

@"Avatar.3568" said:People just don't want to learn to fight against things there is no real cheesy thing, there are overturned things, sometimes overpowered things

But in general people are just lazy, and run with their head always against the wall and say "this is cheesy and op" instead of looking what the enemy is doing and adept to that

you can call it the way you want, but is the same. Im not against that cheesy skills, builds or... whatever, just saying that yes, they can be spamable, but shouldn't be that powerful. There is no sense in a skill that dont requieres the player any attention, or decision, to have the high impact it has.

@"SPESHAL.9106" said:It may be too harsh to call it a failed balance patch, but it was disappointing because ANET took 2 shortcuts that almost ALWAYS tick off the playerbase and show laziness.

1. They only nerfed and didn't buff anything. Minor nerfing of some things was needed, but not only did they leave stuff out to nerf...they forgot to BUFF the specs and things that were underperforming. That's no way to INCREASE interest in the game...nerfs and no buffs is lazy and short-sighted.

2. They just REMOVED stuff from the game versus taking the time to balance it. There is nothing about those amulets that are inherently unfair UNLESS you have screwed up something in the core design of the game. On top of that, they clearly didn't use much foresight either. Just recently, they spent a huge amount of resources reducing damage in the game that INCLUDED the previous amulets in the game that increased survivability. Now, they are sabotaging their own work a month ago by removing amulets that were inevitably included in their balance equation. Thus, fixing one issue lazily will likely lead to even bigger problems than they solved.

Again, even if deleting the amulets solves a problem, it's just like doing nerfs with no buffs...it's a terrible way to try and increase interest in the game.

The same thing happened with underwater combat in pvp. Instead of FIXING the core problems (or even living with the imbalance), they just DELETE programming which is ALWAYS disappointing to the existing playerbase and does ZERO to attract new people.

there is another good point. I dont understand about how devs focus this. Another example is Chaotic Interruption. It was there for ages, almost noone used it (well i did hahaha), suddenly it starts to appear in meta and anet got "removed" an skill during months... so, that way of "planning" dont seems to me like there is a "final" concept of what pvp should, seems that (i may be wrong...) anet is fighting fire when it appear on the forums, but dont have a plan at all.. how you can remove a trait during 2/3 months of the game and change it to something almost useless?So, seeing that, they may do the same with the druids root...

I think that if you're losing fights to bots, you have bigger problems than condi.

@AliamRationem.5172 said:I think that if you're losing fights to bots, you have bigger problems than condi.

noone said that is loosing to bots, please, read and dont be toxic.

@judgebeo.3976 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:I think that if you're losing fights to bots, you have bigger problems than condi.

You did, actually. And you're the one being toxic. Have a nice day!