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Roaming // Condi builds forcing us to sacrifice crucial build elements for cleanse uptime

SoulSlavocracy.4902SoulSlavocracy.4902 Member ✭✭✭
edited May 26, 2020 in WvW

I typed a long detailed post and decided to delete it because condi-mains will just reply with "jUsT cLeanSe JuSt DoDgE" regardless. You can't fix people like that and I won't try to change their minds.

Fact of the matter: condi is OP and every competent player who wants to win at least 8/10 matchups is forced to run a build with antitoxin rune, or lose every time vs condi mirage, core necro, occasionally to burn guard, and condi rev (to an even lesser degree). There is simply not enough condi cleanse in the game to deal with these builds without specifically building against them (i.e. antitoxin fire weaver), sacrificing crucial traits that would be of value vs power enemies or forcing certain builds and decreasing build diversity/overall fun of the game...

overpowered builds are overpowered, enough said. please don't take half a year to patch this.

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Comments

  • Helly.2597Helly.2597 Member ✭✭✭

    Conditions are strong (busted) currently but youre not correct in your solution. Condi cleanse buffs have contributed to the current situation where too many specs are overloaded on cleanses and condis have been buffed to combat this.

    Cleansing sigil is absolutely broken in wvw and even if the meta isn't favoring condis was already required in builds prior to the patch anyways.

    I've basically been playing exclusively power revenant recently (resistance runes and cleansing sigil) and in most fights I am not overloaded with conditions as long as I play well. But...

    The problem with condi in wvw currently (and support) is the gear stats that are available to them in dire/tb (and minstrels for support). There is basically no reason to not take these stats currently and you don't need to think just face tank damage. This issue is only compounded with how weakness doesn't impact condi dmg but is a massive dmg loss on any power build.

    If these stat sets are removed we can actually start to evaluate balancing, but until then these overperforming sets will dominate any build design and balance decision and are imo the root of the current (garbage) meta.

    [vT] Hobo
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  • ArlAlt.1630ArlAlt.1630 Member ✭✭✭

    @God.2708 said:
    Isn't this as much a paradigm issue? Rock Paper Scissors me here, dude above me is saying condition builds are using full dire/tb which strikes me as a tremendous build 'sacrifice' because they're having to build explicitly to last against more bursty power specs that potentially roam in pairs or trios. If they have to make that build sacrifice then why shouldn't you have to make a sacrifice to deal with them? Given the sandbox nature of WvW it seems incredible neurotic to expect a single build to work in the majority of situations. If you can build to counter them, and the counter works without making TO MUCH sacrifice, IMO things are working as intended.

    If the sacrifice is to much and that is your issue, carry on!

    This! oh yes and just dodge, cleanse.

  • Helly.2597Helly.2597 Member ✭✭✭

    @God.2708 said:
    Isn't this as much a paradigm issue? Rock Paper Scissors me here, dude above me is saying condition builds are using full dire/tb which strikes me as a tremendous build 'sacrifice' because they're having to build explicitly to last against more bursty power specs that potentially roam in pairs or trios. If they have to make that build sacrifice then why shouldn't you have to make a sacrifice to deal with them? Given the sandbox nature of WvW it seems incredible neurotic to expect a single build to work in the majority of situations. If you can build to counter them, and the counter works without making TO MUCH sacrifice, IMO things are working as intended.

    If the sacrifice is to much and that is your issue, carry on!

    You're totally right, trade offs are required. That is at the core of balance. But I struggle to find the trade offs for using dire/tb/minstrels. You don't lose dmg (or support ability for minstrels), you don't lose toughness, you don't lose hp. You're gotten away with countering builds (such as burst builds) that are supposed to combat yours without actually making a concession.

    I'm not against condi I'm against stat sets being no brainer decisions. There are reasons dire/tb/minstrels don't exist in spvp, and it's not because spvpers don't know how to properly counter builds.

    [vT] Hobo
    Violent Tendency
    NA Roaming

  • knite.1542knite.1542 Member ✭✭✭

    @God.2708 said:
    Isn't this as much a paradigm issue? Rock Paper Scissors me here, dude above me is saying condition builds are using full dire/tb which strikes me as a tremendous build 'sacrifice' because they're having to build explicitly to last against more bursty power specs that potentially roam in pairs or trios. If they have to make that build sacrifice

    How exactly is running a stat that gives you both offensive stats that you need (Condition damage + expertise) as well as vitality and toughness a sacrifice?

    If your team wins it's because of everyone else. If your team loses, blame the thief.
    ranger is OP but holo is more OP so its fine
    Why do this matter at all, you have people asking you why play so bad as fractal god?

  • RlyOsim.2497RlyOsim.2497 Member ✭✭
    edited May 1, 2020

    Lowering of the skill ceiling.

    But I definitely understand what you mean, it feels terrible to h-a-v-e to account for random pug showing up mid-fight with their 3k toughness and 25k hp to spam skills they haven't even read. You can't just burst them down and continue, they die anyway but you have to waste so much more on these people that have no business being in the fight that long in the first place. It's frustrating and just artificially adds difficulty. And it's not just the more casual players either, you put a skilled player on some of the tb builds doing they rounds and they just demolish everything, sure, slower, but they do, particularly in 1v1's, it's not a question of if but when.

    Hyperbole clearly but I feel these points are pretty valid and core issues to a certain section of the WvW playerbase.

  • SpellOfIniquity.1780SpellOfIniquity.1780 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm of the opposite opinion of why build defensively when you can 1 shot people. Both ends of the spectrum are obscene.

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  • Dahir.4158Dahir.4158 Member ✭✭✭

    Just cleanse just dodge

    Broski Supreme - Borsk Carry Effect - Condi Ele Pioneer

  • @God.2708 said:
    Isn't this as much a paradigm issue? Rock Paper Scissors me here, dude above me is saying condition builds are using full dire/tb which strikes me as a tremendous build 'sacrifice' because they're having to build explicitly to last against more bursty power specs that potentially roam in pairs or trios. If they have to make that build sacrifice then why shouldn't you have to make a sacrifice to deal with them? Given the sandbox nature of WvW it seems incredible neurotic to expect a single build to work in the majority of situations. If you can build to counter them, and the counter works without making TO MUCH sacrifice, IMO things are working as intended.

    If the sacrifice is to much and that is your issue, carry on!

    The “sacrifice” you’re describing here with dire/trailblazer to deal with “power specs that roam in pairs or trios“. So balanced means you should be able to take on 1v2 or 1v3 consistently on a condi build? That doesn’t make sense to me.

    What’s the opportunity cost of taking trailblazer or dire gear? It’s not like you need other offensive stats to do good condition damage. There is minimal sacrifice to condition damage when you pick up dire/trailblazer gear.

  • ArlAlt.1630ArlAlt.1630 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 1, 2020

    Ok now that I have some more time to go in depth.
    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 Which class is it that you play that you feel forced to run Antitoxin, cuz let's have a little look at what condi cleanse classes have available across the spectrum.

    Mesmer: I would have to login to double check but off the top of my head I currently run 20-22 cleanses over the first 30 secs of the fight, should the need arise, which is never because that's 3 full condi bombs cleansed.

    Warrior: You get 10-16 condis cleansed over the first 30 secs and that's without investing too much into it, you could go way more if you really wanna build for it.

    Ranger: You get 10-16 condis cleansed over the first 30 secs by playing the standard wilderness survival/BM build. If you go druid that number goes astronomically high.

    Engineer: If you make use of your fields (toolbelt and conjured weapons) and finishers you can cleanse an insane amount of condi, I don't think I'm able to make an educated guess without spending time looking at it. But think Upward of 15.

    Guardian: This one doesn't need any consideration, anyone that has played the game for more than 2 days, can tell you this guy is your boy when condi is present, best part his is AoE.

    Elementalist: Tricky, depending on build it could have insane cleanse potential or close to none.
    Edit: I just got back from my Ele guy. Without going overboard you can get 15 cleanses in the first 30 secs of a fight, no Antitoxin runes, no Cleansing sigil.

    Necromancer: Decent arsenal of impactful cleansing/transfer options available in the base kit. Needs no further consideration, maybe Reaper is on the lower end? Though again you can probably slot in enough condi cleanse without having to resort to Antitoxin runes, which is what you claim is required.

    Thief: If you're a Daredevil, literally all you have to do is pick escapist fortitude and shadowstep and you're already borderline never going to have a problem with condi. For the others slotting Signet of Agility and 1-2 cleansing sigil(s) is more than sufficient to put you in good standing to where you'll never need to slot Antitoxin runes.

    Revenant: I have a feeling this is where the bread winner is gonna be, Power Shiro has always had lackluster cleanse options, however the not so recent changes to cleansing sigil made them fair much better. Power Shiro is a glass cannon kill or be killed kind of spec that has active defense options to sustain itself for the duration of the fight. Yes it doesn't do well against heavy condi pressure, but no build is good against everything. This is prolly the only build I'd say requires double cleansing in the current meta.
    On the other hand, if you look at Malyx Rev, practically immune to condi.

    Was that 9? I believe it was. Now to summarize, every single class in the game has options to build for more than enough condi cleanse, to deal with just about any situation that isn't a blob full of pulsing AoE and that is fine, that's why you have your resident Mender FBs to compound cleanse the blob, but your title says "roaming" so we'll just ignore that point altogether. The only build and I do say build as it's not representative of the class as a whole is Power Shiro Rev.
    So what exactly is your problem with condi cleanses and why do you feel the need slot Antitoxin runes to roam successfully?

    Tl;DR: Your complaint feels more like universal hatred for condis, stemming from you being lazy or unwilling to slot any cleanse options provided by your kit so you can drool over big numbers while yelling "BIG DAMAGE, BIG DAMAGE!"

    Edit: I stand corrected, the OP is a FIRE WEAVER, oh the irony. :lol:

  • knite.1542knite.1542 Member ✭✭✭

    Goodness. That is an impressive list. With condi cleanse being so easy and available it makes me wonder how condi builds get any kills ever.

    If your team wins it's because of everyone else. If your team loses, blame the thief.
    ranger is OP but holo is more OP so its fine
    Why do this matter at all, you have people asking you why play so bad as fractal god?

  • mistsim.2748mistsim.2748 Member ✭✭✭

    Dodge? Cleanse? Nah. Just kill them.

    If you're losing to condi, you're not glass.enough.

  • ArlAlt.1630ArlAlt.1630 Member ✭✭✭

    @knite.1542 said:
    Goodness. That is an impressive list. With condi cleanse being so easy and available it makes me wonder how condi builds get any kills ever.

    I have the sneaking suspicion the OP is complaining about condi class stacking in small roaming groups, which has gotten more popular now that we have more than 1 working condi class at the same time. And yes, you can’t outsustain 2 condi classes pummeling you, but the same is true for having 2 glass cannons tunneling you. You’re not supposed to, in a perfect balance scenario at equal skill 1 player should not be able to 1vX.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Uhm op plays... Fire weaver?

  • ArlAlt.1630ArlAlt.1630 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 1, 2020

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    OP seems to imply that condi builds are immune to condi without making the same sacrifices to crucial build elements as power.

    Or is unhappy that a mean Condi Rev transferred his 12 stacks of burn right back at him. :lol:

    @God.2708 said:

    @kiwituatara.6053 said:

    @God.2708 said:
    Isn't this as much a paradigm issue? Rock Paper Scissors me here, dude above me is saying condition builds are using full dire/tb which strikes me as a tremendous build 'sacrifice' because they're having to build explicitly to last against more bursty power specs that potentially roam in pairs or trios. If they have to make that build sacrifice then why shouldn't you have to make a sacrifice to deal with them? Given the sandbox nature of WvW it seems incredible neurotic to expect a single build to work in the majority of situations. If you can build to counter them, and the counter works without making TO MUCH sacrifice, IMO things are working as intended.

    If the sacrifice is to much and that is your issue, carry on!

    The “sacrifice” you’re describing here with dire/trailblazer to deal with “power specs that roam in pairs or trios“. So balanced means you should be able to take on 1v2 or 1v3 consistently on a condi build? That doesn’t make sense to me.

    What’s the opportunity cost of taking trailblazer or dire gear? It’s not like you need other offensive stats to do good condition damage. There is minimal sacrifice to condition damage when you pick up dire/trailblazer gear.

    The sacrifice you are making is that if the opponent equips anti-toxin runes and takes even a modicum amount of cleanse you are literally a walking cabbage. Base damage with no power behind is absolutely no threat. It is why the real PITA condition classes are usually celestial hybrids that pressure you on both layers to which there is no counter except to out stat them better, these are the builds worth discussing over how to nerf, and historically have been the most problematic. Most builds complained about are not exactly fun to fight, but they are easily countered cheese and they exist in equal parts for both power and condi.

    To the other person, PvP toughness got removed because you have to go to the enemy. In a sandbox mode where it's perfectly viable to turn the corner, make a few gear changes, and come back around and be effectively immortal the issue is not the stats but the approach. They just removed knights and cavaliers too, I suppose those are over performing in WvW?

    This is true, however the recent power level nerfs affected those severely due to the already lower power levels they can achieve, making them far less desirable.

  • Strider.7849Strider.7849 Member ✭✭✭

    Am I in the minority of people who enjoy fighting different builds.. condi or otherwise? I'm a power build currently, can also roam as a healer.. but haven't been able to theory craft a proper condi build yet as I'm working on the legendary gear to be able to fine tune one. I wouldn't like seeing them toned down just because I enjoy the diversity in what I fight and also like having multiple options as a player myself. Something I lose to most is condi revenant and 2+ groups of condi/support firebrands (solo ones are np) but it doesn't mean I don't enjoy fighting it.

    I honestly hope that the WvW forum doesn't become like whining on sPvP one: "I lost to X please nerf, since it's not my ability, build, poor choices, or being outplayed/outnumbered but because my inferior opponent is running a super powered indestructible build".

  • Lightning Xv.8705Lightning Xv.8705 Member ✭✭
    edited May 1, 2020

    Wonder how many people would screech about condi if a full condition damage build was a squish as full zerker....
    Condi has its own power/ferocity with condi damage/expertise its just missing that third stat to make gear options require a bit more thought. Could they work precision into condition somehow? Maybe. Probably a better option than creating an entirely new stat. Something like making skills that apply condi only apply a base amount for a non-crit and then the full amount if the skill crits?

    A skill example

    Enfeebling Blood
    A non crit would apply 1 bleed but a crit would apply all 3.

    Though rabid is condi/pre/tough ......which most people would flock to and just ignore the expertise loss all together possibly mixing in dire to get some vit back. So that stat would probably have to play a bigger role(lower base durations with expertise increasing it at a higher rate? I'm thinking along the lines of what they did to healing power).Don't know how to really rework condi with how this game built it and not leave loopholes or over complicating it.

    I feel like since HoT there has been plenty of condi builds that got obliterated because of the tankyness of the gearing options rather than the actual output. I don't know if this idea is good or not its just what I thought up on the spot.

    -edit using precision and crits would also bring weakness in to play against condition builds.

    @Strider.7849 said:
    Am I in the minority of people who enjoy fighting different builds.. condi or otherwise?

    Having some variety in opposition is nice instead of fighting the same cookie-cutter build from each class all day long.

    I honestly hope that the WvW forum doesn't become like whining on sPvP one: "I lost to X please nerf, since it's not my ability, build, poor choices, or being outplayed/outnumbered but because my inferior opponent is running a super powered indestructible build".

    Pretty sure we crossed that bridge a long time ago. Not saying there haven't been some over performing setups over the years but some of the threads people create make me want to question if they can even tie their own shoe...

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yes.....nerf the condi's that comes from the OP's mentioned classes....NERF THEM ALL laughs in a non mentioned condi class

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
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  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider.7849 said:
    Am I in the minority of people who enjoy fighting different builds.. condi or otherwise? I'm a power build currently, can also roam as a healer.. but haven't been able to theory craft a proper condi build yet as I'm working on the legendary gear to be able to fine tune one. I wouldn't like seeing them toned down just because I enjoy the diversity in what I fight and also like having multiple options as a player myself. Something I lose to most is condi revenant and 2+ groups of condi/support firebrands (solo ones are np) but it doesn't mean I don't enjoy fighting it.

    I honestly hope that the WvW forum doesn't become like whining on sPvP one: "I lost to X please nerf, since it's not my ability, build, poor choices, or being outplayed/outnumbered but because my inferior opponent is running a super powered indestructible build".

    Honestly, I can't fathom what game everyone else is playing, but while I can point to plenty of things that I think could work better, I've always felt combat felt good in this game. It never mattered which meta people were complaining about.

    Am I the one doing it wrong here?

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 1, 2020

    Core necro's problem is with its ridiculous sustain, not because of condi. Plus unlike some of the other listed classes cannot chase you down. Most of the time people die to core necro is because they chase the necro since everyone's been conditioned to think necro is a free kill and get upset when they are not.. (I have yet to shake this mentality myself)

    Mirage has always been a problem, but condi or not, it is still.

    Burn guard in 1v1 with their 1 condition? I dunno. Guardians are probably the lowest threat level to me tbh, regardless of class. Maybe it's because I main guard and it's one of the most popular classes so most are insanely predictable, not that it isn't a predictable class to begin with.

    Overperforming specs and too much sustain seems to be a bigger problem than condi. I'm thinking all 4 stat armor should be nerfed only in wvw, but not sure how that works since nothing can be changed in this game because technical limitations. Maybe we could nerf concentration and expertise.

    BTW unless you're totally already loaded on condi clears (running purge gyro or one of the cleanse mantras or something), antitoxin runes are not the way to go. Why is this? It only works when you actually have condi clear. Clearing that extra cover condi doesn't help. So it does nothing to help you when you need it, especially vs attackers that just focus on a single type of condi. This is why cleansing sigils are massively valued; they clear your condis when you need to!

  • ArlAlt.1630ArlAlt.1630 Member ✭✭✭

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    Overperforming specs and too much sustain seems to be a bigger problem than condi. I'm thinking all 4 stat armor should be nerfed only in wvw, but not sure how that works since nothing can be changed in this game because technical limitations. Maybe we could nerf concentration and expertise.

    Which would be ok if all classes had nearly identical active/passive defenses built into their kits. However they’re not even close.
    Fact to the matter is that some classes require investment in defensive stats to survive, while others can roll zerker gear and be fine on sustain. That alone makes such a suggestion unfeasible, at least with the way things are right now.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 1, 2020

    @ArlAlt.1630 said:

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    Overperforming specs and too much sustain seems to be a bigger problem than condi. I'm thinking all 4 stat armor should be nerfed only in wvw, but not sure how that works since nothing can be changed in this game because technical limitations. Maybe we could nerf concentration and expertise.

    Which would be ok if all classes had nearly identical active/passive defenses built into their kits. However they’re not even close.
    Fact to the matter is that some classes require investment in defensive stats to survive, while others can roll zerker gear and be fine on sustain. That alone makes such a suggestion unfeasible, at least with the way things are right now.

    Why is it unfeasible when that's how it was before HoT? All 4 stats gear really does is power creep and remove the need for trade offs.

    People still use core stats like dire.

  • ArlAlt.1630ArlAlt.1630 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 1, 2020

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:

    @ArlAlt.1630 said:

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    Overperforming specs and too much sustain seems to be a bigger problem than condi. I'm thinking all 4 stat armor should be nerfed only in wvw, but not sure how that works since nothing can be changed in this game because technical limitations. Maybe we could nerf concentration and expertise.

    Which would be ok if all classes had nearly identical active/passive defenses built into their kits. However they’re not even close.
    Fact to the matter is that some classes require investment in defensive stats to survive, while others can roll zerker gear and be fine on sustain. That alone makes such a suggestion unfeasible, at least with the way things are right now.

    Why is it unfeasible when that's how it was before HoT? All 4 stats gear really does is power creep and remove the need for trade offs.

    People still use core stats like dire.

    I apologize, I missed the part about 4 stat gears. Yes those did introduce an unnecessary power creep. Then further introduced the need for ANet to balance base condi duration from skills to balance them out. However as it is now, short of them removing expertise and concentration as stats to go back to the original +% values awarded by traits and skills, I really don’t see a fix. So that ship set sails long time ago and talking about it now makes little sense.

  • ArlAlt.1630ArlAlt.1630 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 1, 2020

    Ok so I just got back from my Ele guy. He looked over the Metabattle Fire Weaver spec, said you can get around 15 condi cleanses in the first 30 secs of a fight with a couple trait swaps, without slotting Antitoxin or Cleansing sigil. He then mentioned, that slotting Antitoxin in that build makes a lot of sense since you get that extra condi damage on top of the extra cleanse.
    So tell me again man, what exactly is your problem here? Sorry you can’t slot even more damage or duration on your burns, but at some point you gotta draw the line and min/max. You’re NOT by any means required to slot those runes, but you can choose to and get 175 extra condi damage. I really don’t understand your gripe.

    And with that being said... /thread

  • Ahnlok.3897Ahnlok.3897 Member ✭✭

    Tbh, if anet remove PVE styled gears in WvW, and use PvP based amulets, runes, and sigils. It might be better to fight vs condi builds. However, I doubt anet will even try to move their fingers on this move.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2020

    @ArlAlt.1630 said:
    Ok so I just got back from my Ele guy. He looked over the Metabattle Fire Weaver spec, said you can get around 15 condi cleanses in the first 30 secs of a fight with a couple trait swaps, without slotting Antitoxin or Cleansing sigil. He then mentioned, that slotting Antitoxin in that build makes a lot of sense since you get that extra condi damage on top of the extra cleanse.
    So tell me again man, what exactly is your problem here? Sorry you can’t slot even more damage or duration on your burns, but at some point you gotta draw the line and min/max. You’re NOT by any means required to slot those runes, but you can choose to and get 175 extra condi damage. I really don’t understand your gripe.

    And with that being said... /thread

    My guy, Solemn Sacrilege probably knows all this information already and is probably 100x better than 99% of the people who’ve made comments on this thread thus far.

    Do you really think the research you just did qualifies as actual research that deserves a /thread? You’ve basically said absolutely nothing of real impact.

    What Solemn is saying is that you have to spec into antitoxin in order to fight condi meta because condi application meta is so strong you need to spec full cleansing to just be alive and do things in a fight. You can’t NOT afford to take this rune.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2020

    You also got to factor in the skill of the player.

    What that means is if you face bad players, you probably can 1v many for awhile. But if they know how to coordinate, they will bomb at the same time, bursting you with condi. And you will lose.

    I remember pre nerf of burn on ren, you can actually do a lot of 1v many bad players. Now, it's not as easy.

    There's builds which makes you immortal for a bit. Like the old school mace shield war. Or the unkillable core necro, but as patches happen, the old God's lose the edge.

    In the end you'll be thinking Mara cavalier ranger. Let's go.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:
    I typed a long detailed post and decided to delete it because condi-mains will just reply with "jUsT cLeanSe JuSt DoDgE" regardless. You can't fix people like that and I won't try to change their minds.

    Fact of the matter: condi is OP and every competent player who wants to win at least 8/10 matchups is forced to run a build with antitoxin rune, or lose every time vs condi mirage, core necro, occasionally to burn guard, and condi rev (to an even lesser degree). There is simply not enough condi cleanse in the game to deal with these builds without specifically building against them (i.e. antitoxin fire weaver), sacrificing crucial traits that would be of value vs power enemies or forcing certain builds and decreasing build diversity/overall fun of the game...

    Condi mirage is probably still busted tbh, at least as far as very smallscale fights go (at least when you're outnumbered).

    Core necro, just don't engage, they have 0 chase potential and extremely low dmg, but they're so tanky 1v1 that it's not worth the effort. If you're in a group just chainstun them.

    Burnguard is annoying cause it's so bursty but they have no personal CC and possibly the worst sustain in the game. Just focus them and they either die or do invuln>block and run away (very slowly).

    Condirev has low mobility and bad access to stab with mediocre sustain (outside of Tormenting Runes hitting multiple targets, in which case they're in melee with multiple enemies so high risk high reward).

    overpowered builds are overpowered, enough said. please don't take half a year to patch this.

    -solemn

    So the best anti condi tool in the game is sigil of cleansing, takes up 1 sigil slot, for power builds sigil slots are extremely low value. You essentially give up nothing for it. It isn't even mentioned in your post where you mention stuff like antitoxin.

    Antitoxin isn't needed on a single build to get a good condi matchup, but it does allow you completely crush all condi matchups as you take essentially 0 dmg.

    By itself cleansing is probably enough to make you able to win against most condi builds assuming you have no other clears.

    That you have to go a up valuable traits/skills to improve your condi matchups doesn't seem that weird, you're just arguing from a point of view where power is the default.

    I could whine that I have to give up precious cleanses to improve my matchups versus power builds and it would be the same thing.

    Why should I have to give up running plaguedoctor on my support elementalist and be "forced" to run minstrel instead just because I get shredded by the obscene power damage otherwise?

    Why should I be forced to run - 10% dmg taken food instead of - 20% condi duration food?

    I run cleansing sigil and 2 other mediocre clears and have no issues with condi builds, neither does anyone in my group (usual groupsize 3) who runs similar amounts of condi clears. We essentially have no group clears (about 5-15% of my clears for example is from party members,according to logs).

    The best solution is to kill them before they kill you and cleansing generally shifts that in your favor.

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @ArlAlt.1630 said:
    Ok so I just got back from my Ele guy. He looked over the Metabattle Fire Weaver spec, said you can get around 15 condi cleanses in the first 30 secs of a fight with a couple trait swaps, without slotting Antitoxin or Cleansing sigil. He then mentioned, that slotting Antitoxin in that build makes a lot of sense since you get that extra condi damage on top of the extra cleanse.
    So tell me again man, what exactly is your problem here? Sorry you can’t slot even more damage or duration on your burns, but at some point you gotta draw the line and min/max. You’re NOT by any means required to slot those runes, but you can choose to and get 175 extra condi damage. I really don’t understand your gripe.

    And with that being said... /thread

    My guy, Solemn Sacrilege probably knows all this information already and is probably 100x better than 99% of the people who’ve made comments on this thread thus far.

    I'd honestly be embarrassed if one of my friends made a similar post about how good I am and how everyone should listen to me on the forums....

    Do you really think the research you just did qualifies as actual research that deserves a /thread? You’ve basically said absolutely nothing of real impact.

    What Solemn is saying is that you have to spec into antitoxin in order to fight condi meta because condi application meta is so strong you need to spec full cleansing to just be alive and do things in a fight. You can’t NOT afford to take this rune.

    But you really really don't.

    Every single class can currently get okay condi clear with just sigil of cleansing. With that and 2-3 skills/traits (that are often good anyway) most classes have fantastic clears.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    the pve extremes of builds in any direction (power, condi, tank) are pretty lame and anet won't do anything about them. the simple solution (may not be easy tho) is to nerf the extremes of stat stacking on gear so people can't stack 3k power/ 2k condi/ 3.6k toughness.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Dahir.4158Dahir.4158 Member ✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684

    You're an ele. You don't need Antitoxin to fight condi players xD

    Broski Supreme - Borsk Carry Effect - Condi Ele Pioneer

  • @lodjur.1284 said:
    I'd honestly be embarrassed if one of my friends made a similar post about how good I am and how everyone should listen to me on the forums....

    We’re not friends. I’ve just seen him in action when he occasionally showed up in our open field GvGs when my guild was linked to his server

    @Dahir.4158 said:
    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684

    You're an ele. You don't need Antitoxin to fight condi players xD

    I don’t just play Ele, I play almost every class.

  • @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    the pve extremes of builds in any direction (power, condi, tank) are pretty lame and anet won't do anything about them. the simple solution (may not be easy tho) is to nerf the extremes of stat stacking on gear so people can't stack 3k power/ 2k condi/ 3.6k toughness.

    The problem with this in WvW is that Condi stacks 2 of those does really good damage while stacking alot of armor. I do feel condi does need to be toned down a bit. When they nerf overall power damage it just made Condi builds all that more difficult to kill. IMO they should find a way to make condi damage have to crit to do big damage. That way there isn't Vit and Toughness stacking on condi builds

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2020

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    You also got to factor in the skill of the player.

    What that means is if you face bad players, you probably can 1v many for awhile. But if they know how to coordinate, they will bomb at the same time, bursting you with condi. And you will lose.

    I don't get where this argument is coming from. If anything, it's easier to 1v2 condi classes than two power classes.

    If two condi classes burst you at the same time and you fail to dodge/block, you can cleanse and you may have the advantage as your 1 cleanse erases both players' burn stacks.

    If two power classes burst you at the same time and you fail to dodge/block, you're just dead because their damage is instant.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    I'd honestly be embarrassed if one of my friends made a similar post about how good I am and how everyone should listen to me on the forums....

    We’re not friends. I’ve just seen him in action when he occasionally showed up in our open field GvGs when my guild was linked to his server

    Course not. Sounds very believable.

    @Dahir.4158 said:
    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684

    You're an ele. You don't need Antitoxin to fight condi players xD

    I don’t just play Ele, I play almost every class.

    And none of em needs antitoxin.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @coro.3176 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    You also got to factor in the skill of the player.

    What that means is if you face bad players, you probably can 1v many for awhile. But if they know how to coordinate, they will bomb at the same time, bursting you with condi. And you will lose.

    I don't get where this argument is coming from. If anything, it's easier to 1v2 condi classes than two power classes.

    If two condi classes burst you at the same time and you fail to dodge/block, you can cleanse and you may have the advantage as your 1 cleanse erases both players' burn stacks.

    If two power classes burst you at the same time and you fail to dodge/block, you're just dead because their damage is instant.

    Its simple. If your enemy is skilled, or more skilled than you, you probably will lose.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2020

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @coro.3176 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    You also got to factor in the skill of the player.

    What that means is if you face bad players, you probably can 1v many for awhile. But if they know how to coordinate, they will bomb at the same time, bursting you with condi. And you will lose.

    I don't get where this argument is coming from. If anything, it's easier to 1v2 condi classes than two power classes.

    If two condi classes burst you at the same time and you fail to dodge/block, you can cleanse and you may have the advantage as your 1 cleanse erases both players' burn stacks.

    If two power classes burst you at the same time and you fail to dodge/block, you're just dead because their damage is instant.

    Its simple. If your enemy is skilled, or more skilled than you, you probably will lose.

    Agreed, but given equal skill of opponents, it is easier to 1v2 condi than it is to 1v2 power, because with 1v2 condi, you might be able to nullify both of their damage with a single cleanse. With power, their damage is always fully applied.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @coro.3176 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @coro.3176 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    You also got to factor in the skill of the player.

    What that means is if you face bad players, you probably can 1v many for awhile. But if they know how to coordinate, they will bomb at the same time, bursting you with condi. And you will lose.

    I don't get where this argument is coming from. If anything, it's easier to 1v2 condi classes than two power classes.

    If two condi classes burst you at the same time and you fail to dodge/block, you can cleanse and you may have the advantage as your 1 cleanse erases both players' burn stacks.

    If two power classes burst you at the same time and you fail to dodge/block, you're just dead because their damage is instant.

    Its simple. If your enemy is skilled, or more skilled than you, you probably will lose.

    Agreed, but given equal skill of opponents, it is easier to 1v2 condi than it is to 1v2 power, because with 1v2 condi, you might be able to nullify both of their damage with a single cleanse. With power, their damage is always fully applied, given that it hits.

    But that's not the situation. I'm saying. It's easy to beat bad players. But the moment they're good, you can't easily 1v2. Certain classes don't just put condi they corrupt stuff.

    If you face equal opponents most likely the build will carry. Or the knowledge of kiting thru territory. Etc. The running around game.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If they nerf burn then condi will be easier to beat. It's the status that acts like power burst daamge.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    If they nerf burn then condi will be easier to beat. It's the status that acts like power burst daamge.

    They kind of did already on a lot of classes. On engi, for example, they basically cut burn damage in half on its main damage skill: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blowtorch

    That used to do 4 stacks for 6 seconds. Now it does 2 stacks for 12, but since there is so much cleanse, it's always going to be cleansed before 6 seconds have passed.

    They also increased the cooldown by 25%.

    If that's not a heavy nerf, I don't know what is.

  • Saying that condi takes more time to kill is not true. Torment Burn and confusion are the main problems with condi damage I have had a 10k Burn tick proc on me and torment and confusion punish u for doing anything. There is no way anyone can convince me that Trailblazers and dire are needed for condi players just because of ramp up time.

  • Junkpile.7439Junkpile.7439 Member ✭✭✭

    I wanna learn how to do 10k burntic. Any tips how core necro can do it? I did shoot life blast to stag and it did take like 20 sec to kill one. Core mesmer kill it under second. :o

    Low quality trolling since launch
    Seafarer's Rest EotM Hero

  • Comus.7365Comus.7365 Member ✭✭

    i'd say torment is the only condi worth keeping since it has counterplay.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @Helly.2597 said:

    @God.2708 said:
    Isn't this as much a paradigm issue? Rock Paper Scissors me here, dude above me is saying condition builds are using full dire/tb which strikes me as a tremendous build 'sacrifice' because they're having to build explicitly to last against more bursty power specs that potentially roam in pairs or trios. If they have to make that build sacrifice then why shouldn't you have to make a sacrifice to deal with them? Given the sandbox nature of WvW it seems incredible neurotic to expect a single build to work in the majority of situations. If you can build to counter them, and the counter works without making TO MUCH sacrifice, IMO things are working as intended.

    If the sacrifice is to much and that is your issue, carry on!

    You're totally right, trade offs are required. That is at the core of balance. But I struggle to find the trade offs for using dire/tb/minstrels. You don't lose dmg (or support ability for minstrels), you don't lose toughness, you don't lose hp. You're gotten away with countering builds (such as burst builds) that are supposed to combat yours without actually making a concession.

    I'm not against condi I'm against stat sets being no brainer decisions. There are reasons dire/tb/minstrels don't exist in spvp, and it's not because spvpers don't know how to properly counter builds.

    There's a lot of nobrain sets for all roles.
    Only combinations we lack IMO

    • Power, Precision, Vitality
    • Power, Ferocity, Precision, Vitality
    • Precision, Condition Damage, Vitality, Expertise
  • @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Helly.2597 said:

    @God.2708 said:
    Isn't this as much a paradigm issue? Rock Paper Scissors me here, dude above me is saying condition builds are using full dire/tb which strikes me as a tremendous build 'sacrifice' because they're having to build explicitly to last against more bursty power specs that potentially roam in pairs or trios. If they have to make that build sacrifice then why shouldn't you have to make a sacrifice to deal with them? Given the sandbox nature of WvW it seems incredible neurotic to expect a single build to work in the majority of situations. If you can build to counter them, and the counter works without making TO MUCH sacrifice, IMO things are working as intended.

    If the sacrifice is to much and that is your issue, carry on!

    You're totally right, trade offs are required. That is at the core of balance. But I struggle to find the trade offs for using dire/tb/minstrels. You don't lose dmg (or support ability for minstrels), you don't lose toughness, you don't lose hp. You're gotten away with countering builds (such as burst builds) that are supposed to combat yours without actually making a concession.

    I'm not against condi I'm against stat sets being no brainer decisions. There are reasons dire/tb/minstrels don't exist in spvp, and it's not because spvpers don't know how to properly counter builds.

    There's a lot of nobrain sets for all roles.

    This. Most roles only make a decision between 2-3 statcombos, condi tbh has one of the more interesting decision making when it comes to builds as expertise is capped and finding out what combo of dire/tb is ideal takes some math.

    TB/Dire(/apothecary/settler) for condi

    Minstrel/Nomad(/giver) for support

    Marauder/Berserker(/a few extremely niche combos including crusader, diviner and valkyrie)

    Only combinations we lack IMO

    • Power, Precision, Vitality
    • Power, Ferocity, Precision, Vitality
    • Precision, Condition Damage, Vitality, Expertise

    Imo we miss a lot more statcombos that would be awesome to have

    Demolisher

    Marauder but with healing power instead of vit

    Marauder but with small conc instead of vit (not diviner)

    Above but with big fero instead of big preci

    Big vit TB (instead of tough)

    TB with healing power instead of vit

    TB with healing power instead of tough

    Condi+Healing Power+Expertise+Conc

    A ton more that I can't think of right now that would be amazing for all kinds of builds.

    Imo the game should just allow us to make our own somehow, would require a bit of a rework of the crafting system I suppose but the result seems worth it.