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Roaming // Condi builds forcing us to sacrifice crucial build elements for cleanse uptime

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  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Helly.2597 said:

    @God.2708 said:
    Isn't this as much a paradigm issue? Rock Paper Scissors me here, dude above me is saying condition builds are using full dire/tb which strikes me as a tremendous build 'sacrifice' because they're having to build explicitly to last against more bursty power specs that potentially roam in pairs or trios. If they have to make that build sacrifice then why shouldn't you have to make a sacrifice to deal with them? Given the sandbox nature of WvW it seems incredible neurotic to expect a single build to work in the majority of situations. If you can build to counter them, and the counter works without making TO MUCH sacrifice, IMO things are working as intended.

    If the sacrifice is to much and that is your issue, carry on!

    You're totally right, trade offs are required. That is at the core of balance. But I struggle to find the trade offs for using dire/tb/minstrels. You don't lose dmg (or support ability for minstrels), you don't lose toughness, you don't lose hp. You're gotten away with countering builds (such as burst builds) that are supposed to combat yours without actually making a concession.

    I'm not against condi I'm against stat sets being no brainer decisions. There are reasons dire/tb/minstrels don't exist in spvp, and it's not because spvpers don't know how to properly counter builds.

    There's a lot of nobrain sets for all roles.

    This. Most roles only make a decision between 2-3 statcombos, condi tbh has one of the more interesting decision making when it comes to builds as expertise is capped and finding out what combo of dire/tb is ideal takes some math.

    TB/Dire(/apothecary/settler) for condi

    Minstrel/Nomad(/giver) for support

    Marauder/Berserker(/a few extremely niche combos including crusader, diviner and valkyrie)

    Only combinations we lack IMO

    • Power, Precision, Vitality
    • Power, Ferocity, Precision, Vitality
    • Precision, Condition Damage, Vitality, Expertise

    Imo we miss a lot more statcombos that would be awesome to have

    Demolisher

    Marauder but with healing power instead of vit

    Marauder but with small conc instead of vit (not diviner)

    Above but with big fero instead of big preci

    Big vit TB (instead of tough)

    TB with healing power instead of vit

    TB with healing power instead of tough

    Condi+Healing Power+Expertise+Conc

    A ton more that I can't think of right now that would be amazing for all kinds of builds.

    Imo the game should just allow us to make our own somehow, would require a bit of a rework of the crafting system I suppose but the result seems worth it.

    Anet's been reluctant with adding new combinations. And with the removal of amulets in PvP, I doubt we see such thing soon.
    Maybe with 3rd expansion, they'll introduce 5 stats gear (2 major + 3 minor) so defensive stats as minor are kept lower.
    Exemple : +1064 Power, +1064 Precision, +578 Ferocity, +578 Vitality, +578 Concentration

  • SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2020

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Helly.2597 said:

    @God.2708 said:
    Isn't this as much a paradigm issue? Rock Paper Scissors me here, dude above me is saying condition builds are using full dire/tb which strikes me as a tremendous build 'sacrifice' because they're having to build explicitly to last against more bursty power specs that potentially roam in pairs or trios. If they have to make that build sacrifice then why shouldn't you have to make a sacrifice to deal with them? Given the sandbox nature of WvW it seems incredible neurotic to expect a single build to work in the majority of situations. If you can build to counter them, and the counter works without making TO MUCH sacrifice, IMO things are working as intended.

    If the sacrifice is to much and that is your issue, carry on!

    You're totally right, trade offs are required. That is at the core of balance. But I struggle to find the trade offs for using dire/tb/minstrels. You don't lose dmg (or support ability for minstrels), you don't lose toughness, you don't lose hp. You're gotten away with countering builds (such as burst builds) that are supposed to combat yours without actually making a concession.

    I'm not against condi I'm against stat sets being no brainer decisions. There are reasons dire/tb/minstrels don't exist in spvp, and it's not because spvpers don't know how to properly counter builds.

    There's a lot of nobrain sets for all roles.

    This. Most roles only make a decision between 2-3 statcombos, condi tbh has one of the more interesting decision making when it comes to builds as expertise is capped and finding out what combo of dire/tb is ideal takes some math.

    TB/Dire(/apothecary/settler) for condi

    Minstrel/Nomad(/giver) for support

    Marauder/Berserker(/a few extremely niche combos including crusader, diviner and valkyrie)

    Only combinations we lack IMO

    • Power, Precision, Vitality
    • Power, Ferocity, Precision, Vitality
    • Precision, Condition Damage, Vitality, Expertise

    Imo we miss a lot more statcombos that would be awesome to have

    Demolisher

    Marauder but with healing power instead of vit

    Marauder but with small conc instead of vit (not diviner)

    Above but with big fero instead of big preci

    Big vit TB (instead of tough)

    TB with healing power instead of vit

    TB with healing power instead of tough

    Condi+Healing Power+Expertise+Conc

    A ton more that I can't think of right now that would be amazing for all kinds of builds.

    Imo the game should just allow us to make our own somehow, would require a bit of a rework of the crafting system I suppose but the result seems worth it.

    Anet's been reluctant with adding new combinations. And with the removal of amulets in PvP, I doubt we see such thing soon.

    Would be a shame, limiting start combinations imo feels like such poor balancing. Especially for WvW.

    Maybe with 3rd expansion, they'll introduce 5 stats gear (2 major + 3 minor) so defensive stats as minor are kept lower.
    Exemple : +1064 Power, +1064 Precision, +578 Ferocity, +578 Vitality, +578 Concentration

    I would love 5 stats been thinking about it a lot myself, with like ~15% more stats than 3 stats (4 stat is ~10%)

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I wouldn’t say it is a must to run a lot of anti-condi because I’ve seen skilled players make do with just a few.

    Properly avoiding bigger condi applications is something that most players do not know how to do (myself included). I rely a lot on stacking anti condi Options to out cleanse the conditions instead of avoiding its application.

    I used to run 8-9 anti condi options just to keep cleansing because I fail at dodging.
    I now run almost continuous condi clear because why dodge when you can keep cleansing every couple of seconds.

    Given that there are many anti condi tools for those who don’t know how to avoid bigger applications, I would say that condi is not OP.

    I’m more worried about the sustain now tbh. Core Necro definitely needs a hit in its signets and the heal in shroud trait. Just bring over the nerfs from PvP and it would be less broke. There is also a Low key Ele build I see someone play that seems to be very sustainy that might need a look at.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I can imagine in future where you can edit stars to percentage. Oh I'd definitely make mine 10% toughness got and 80% condi. Mwahhaahha

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Supreme.3164Supreme.3164 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2020

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    I wouldn’t say it is a must to run a lot of anti-condi because I’ve seen skilled players make do with just a few.

    Properly avoiding bigger condi applications is something that most players do not know how to do (myself included). I rely a lot on stacking anti condi Options to out cleanse the conditions instead of avoiding its application.

    I used to run 8-9 anti condi options just to keep cleansing because I fail at dodging.
    I now run almost continuous condi clear because why dodge when you can keep cleansing every couple of seconds.

    Given that there are many anti condi tools for those who don’t know how to avoid bigger applications, I would say that condi is not OP.

    I’m more worried about the sustain now tbh. Core Necro definitely needs a hit in its signets and the heal in shroud trait. Just bring over the nerfs from PvP and it would be less broke. There is also a Low key Ele build I see someone play that seems to be very sustainy that might need a look at.

    I have yet to see a single ele roaming in T1 outside me on WSR.....but there are "thousand" of necros from scourge to core necro...from roaming to zerging, this ele build you talk about for being a lowkey build...it's pretty much nonexistent. Even "TOP" ele streamers ( just a couple of them) have stopped doing so in wvw.....

    They are skilled players who may be using ele time to time...I give you that, but there is nothing faceroll on ele..nothing on the same level of necro at least and the numbers alone do me justice

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:
    I typed a long detailed post and decided to delete it because condi-mains will just reply with "jUsT cLeanSe JuSt DoDgE" regardless. You can't fix people like that and I won't try to change their minds.

    Fact of the matter: condi is OP and every competent player who wants to win at least 8/10 matchups is forced to run a build with antitoxin rune, or lose every time vs condi mirage, core necro, occasionally to burn guard, and condi rev (to an even lesser degree). There is simply not enough condi cleanse in the game to deal with these builds without specifically building against them (i.e. antitoxin fire weaver), sacrificing crucial traits that would be of value vs power enemies or forcing certain builds and decreasing build diversity/overall fun of the game...

    overpowered builds are overpowered, enough said. please don't take half a year to patch this.

    -solemn

    @Helly.2597 said:

    @God.2708 said:
    Isn't this as much a paradigm issue? Rock Paper Scissors me here, dude above me is saying condition builds are using full dire/tb which strikes me as a tremendous build 'sacrifice' because they're having to build explicitly to last against more bursty power specs that potentially roam in pairs or trios. If they have to make that build sacrifice then why shouldn't you have to make a sacrifice to deal with them? Given the sandbox nature of WvW it seems incredible neurotic to expect a single build to work in the majority of situations. If you can build to counter them, and the counter works without making TO MUCH sacrifice, IMO things are working as intended.

    If the sacrifice is to much and that is your issue, carry on!

    You're totally right, trade offs are required. That is at the core of balance. But I struggle to find the trade offs for using dire/tb/minstrels. You don't lose dmg (or support ability for minstrels), you don't lose toughness, you don't lose hp. You're gotten away with countering builds (such as burst builds) that are supposed to combat yours without actually making a concession.

    I'm not against condi I'm against stat sets being no brainer decisions. There are reasons dire/tb/minstrels don't exist in spvp, and it's not because spvpers don't know how to properly counter builds.

    It's as much an issue of power stats doing next to nothing for condi builds. What other stat set is there to take for condi? Hybrid doesn't work. You can't usually design builds that can make use of both without giving up more of one just to have the other. And if you somehow force those stats onto condi, condi is worthless because it's still damage over time that can be cleansed which will always lose the glass cannon battle. What you would need are stats that can support both, while also supporting some degree of passive defense to facilitate partial reliance on damage over time. Just not full on passive stats like dire/tb. I don't know how you make it work without reinventing the wheel.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2020

    @Helly.2597 said:

    @God.2708 said:
    Isn't this as much a paradigm issue? Rock Paper Scissors me here, dude above me is saying condition builds are using full dire/tb which strikes me as a tremendous build 'sacrifice' because they're having to build explicitly to last against more bursty power specs that potentially roam in pairs or trios. If they have to make that build sacrifice then why shouldn't you have to make a sacrifice to deal with them? Given the sandbox nature of WvW it seems incredible neurotic to expect a single build to work in the majority of situations. If you can build to counter them, and the counter works without making TO MUCH sacrifice, IMO things are working as intended.

    If the sacrifice is to much and that is your issue, carry on!

    You're totally right, trade offs are required. That is at the core of balance. But I struggle to find the trade offs for using dire/tb/minstrels. You don't lose dmg (or support ability for minstrels), you don't lose toughness, you don't lose hp. You're gotten away with countering builds (such as burst builds) that are supposed to combat yours without actually making a concession.

    The trade-off for minstrel is fairly simply that you do very close to 0 dmg.

    The trade-off for dire/TB builds is GENERALLY a lack of burst, there's a few exceptions to this, most notably burnguard, condi mes and condi thief. One of which has very close to 0 mobility, sustain and CC, the other 2 which are about as annoying as their power counterparts.

    Condi builds overall get to play with stronger statcombos because there's a lot more counterplay to it, even in full toughness gear and protection on, many power skills can still hit 5-6k crits on you, sometimes even higher (even after nerfs). The only counterplay is essentially avoidance.

    Condi has a very large amount of counterplay, with clears being the most obvious one. Against condi one can simply hit weapon swap (or holomode/legend swap/attunement etc) and negate a very large portion of their dmg. The counterplay options are avoidance, cleansing and resistance.

    I'm not against condi I'm against stat sets being no brainer decisions. There are reasons dire/tb/minstrels don't exist in spvp, and it's not because spvpers don't know how to properly counter builds.

    Tbf sPvP is a very low power environment with a very specific goal (ie standing on nodes)

    Ascended level weapon damage is too strong.

    Marauder stats are too strong

    Viper stats are too strong.

    Soldier stats are too strong lmfao.

    Even cleric is too strong.

    Close to every single rune is too strong.

    Cleansing Sigil is too strong.

    Energy Sigil is too strong.

    Even bad sigils like force is too strong for sPvP.

    That something is too strong for sPvP does not mean that it's too strong for WvW.

    There's a lot less counter options available for sPvP, if they were to introduce only Dire/TB in sPvP it would ofc be a disaster, if they were to introduce the rest of WvW balancing who knows. Probably still bad as the gamemode revolves around standing on a little point, something which tanky builds excel at compared to the open field fights of WvW.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In WvW right now there are specs that are virtually immune to direct dmg a combination of high boon uptime and unnerfed sustain traitlines compared to PvP plus nerfed direct dmg...makes some specs practically impossible to kill with direct dmg alone.

    Condi dmg is necessary to balance out the immense sustain powercreep some classes in WvW still enjoy :

    engineer
    ranger
    necro

    These 3 above have innate sustain , can have access to long term boons on top medium-high base HP....condi is most times the only answer to them

    Thief-rev

    High defense against power spike with block/teleports and stealth in thief case...again condi is the only answer to avoid any further delay ; my point is that any nerf to condi dmg must be accompanied by nerfs to sustain for some specs, typically they ones I have mentioned

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2020

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    I wouldn’t say it is a must to run a lot of anti-condi because I’ve seen skilled players make do with just a few.

    Properly avoiding bigger condi applications is something that most players do not know how to do (myself included). I rely a lot on stacking anti condi Options to out cleanse the conditions instead of avoiding its application.

    I used to run 8-9 anti condi options just to keep cleansing because I fail at dodging.
    I now run almost continuous condi clear because why dodge when you can keep cleansing every couple of seconds.

    Given that there are many anti condi tools for those who don’t know how to avoid bigger applications, I would say that condi is not OP.

    I’m more worried about the sustain now tbh. Core Necro definitely needs a hit in its signets and the heal in shroud trait. Just bring over the nerfs from PvP and it would be less broke. There is also a Low key Ele build I see someone play that seems to be very sustainy that might need a look at.

    "Very sustainy ele" ???? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.......what game are you playing? GW2 on servers with 2013 version?. If there is a very sustainy ele build in wvw....when playing boonbeast...I should be reported for hacking xd

    Good lord...they are hundreds of necros per map...every day in wvw...with the occasional Tempest playing with zergs....there are bloody hundreds of necros and this guy talk about "very sustainy ele"..just what in the name of all is holy is going on?

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • @ArlAlt.1630 said:
    Ok now that I have some more time to go in depth.
    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 Which class is it that you play that you feel forced to run Antitoxin, cuz let's have a little look at what condi cleanse classes have available across the spectrum.

    Mesmer: I would have to login to double check but off the top of my head I currently run 20-22 cleanses over the first 30 secs of the fight, should the need arise, which is never because that's 3 full condi bombs cleansed.

    Warrior: You get 10-16 condis cleansed over the first 30 secs and that's without investing too much into it, you could go way more if you really wanna build for it.

    Ranger: You get 10-16 condis cleansed over the first 30 secs by playing the standard wilderness survival/BM build. If you go druid that number goes astronomically high.

    Engineer: If you make use of your fields (toolbelt and conjured weapons) and finishers you can cleanse an insane amount of condi, I don't think I'm able to make an educated guess without spending time looking at it. But think Upward of 15.

    Guardian: This one doesn't need any consideration, anyone that has played the game for more than 2 days, can tell you this guy is your boy when condi is present, best part his is AoE.

    Elementalist: Tricky, depending on build it could have insane cleanse potential or close to none.
    Edit: I just got back from my Ele guy. Without going overboard you can get 15 cleanses in the first 30 secs of a fight, no Antitoxin runes, no Cleansing sigil.

    Necromancer: Decent arsenal of impactful cleansing/transfer options available in the base kit. Needs no further consideration, maybe Reaper is on the lower end? Though again you can probably slot in enough condi cleanse without having to resort to Antitoxin runes, which is what you claim is required.

    Thief: If you're a Daredevil, literally all you have to do is pick escapist fortitude and shadowstep and you're already borderline never going to have a problem with condi. For the others slotting Signet of Agility and 1-2 cleansing sigil(s) is more than sufficient to put you in good standing to where you'll never need to slot Antitoxin runes.

    Revenant: I have a feeling this is where the bread winner is gonna be, Power Shiro has always had lackluster cleanse options, however the not so recent changes to cleansing sigil made them fair much better. Power Shiro is a glass cannon kill or be killed kind of spec that has active defense options to sustain itself for the duration of the fight. Yes it doesn't do well against heavy condi pressure, but no build is good against everything. This is prolly the only build I'd say requires double cleansing in the current meta.
    On the other hand, if you look at Malyx Rev, practically immune to condi.

    Was that 9? I believe it was. Now to summarize, every single class in the game has options to build for more than enough condi cleanse, to deal with just about any situation that isn't a blob full of pulsing AoE and that is fine, that's why you have your resident Mender FBs to compound cleanse the blob, but your title says "roaming" so we'll just ignore that point altogether. The only build and I do say build as it's not representative of the class as a whole is Power Shiro Rev.
    So what exactly is your problem with condi cleanses and why do you feel the need slot Antitoxin runes to roam successfully?

    Tl;DR: Your complaint feels more like universal hatred for condis, stemming from you being lazy or unwilling to slot any cleanse options provided by your kit so you can drool over big numbers while yelling "BIG DAMAGE, BIG DAMAGE!"

    Edit: I stand corrected, the OP is a FIRE WEAVER, oh the irony. :lol:

    It's a bit ignorant to suggest that running fire weaver is ironic after it's been neutered so much. If you struggle to fight a fire weaver post-patch, ur doin it wrong. Burn guard on the other hand is basically where fire weaver was at pre-patch ... and no wonder why fire weaver was neutered, burn guard needs the same done to it.

    But yes, no go on, you're right - let's slot max condi cleanses in every build we play so that we can counter the 2-3 builds that we infrequently run into, so that when we fight the builds that we would be fighting 80% of the time we'll be at a competitive disadvantage. Furthermore, realistic fights ? Throw that out the window. Theoretical cleanses is the only thing that matters. If it's possible to cleanse 20 condis in the first 30 seconds, that means it's always going to be possible/viable, yes. Cause I really love to just spam cleanses for 30 seconds straight without being able to focus on doing any lasting damage to the opponent, that's balanced gameplay right there.

    | Solemn [DoM][Fw][PAL][shrd] |
    | NSP (main) | Anvil Rock (alt)

  • @ArlAlt.1630 said:
    Ok so I just got back from my Ele guy. He looked over the Metabattle Fire Weaver spec, said you can get around 15 condi cleanses in the first 30 secs of a fight with a couple trait swaps, without slotting Antitoxin or Cleansing sigil. He then mentioned, that slotting Antitoxin in that build makes a lot of sense since you get that extra condi damage on top of the extra cleanse.
    So tell me again man, what exactly is your problem here? Sorry you can’t slot even more damage or duration on your burns, but at some point you gotta draw the line and min/max. You’re NOT by any means required to slot those runes, but you can choose to and get 175 extra condi damage. I really don’t understand your gripe.

    And with that being said... /thread

    Fight a competent condi mirage or core necro, maybe even a burn guard if they're very clever, and tell me you don't need antitoxin runes. They will wipe the floor with anyone that isn't running a counter build if they know what they're doing. Ok, MAYBE if you went 300 IQ mode and borderline-predicted-the-future or were very lucky, you could utilize all your cleanses at the optimal times without antitoxin rune, WHILE doing damage somehow because if you do not they will just continue spamming, and that could suffice. But that's rare. And I'm not the best ele but I'm certainly not bad either, I can tell you it's genuinely very difficult to fight these builds if you're not running antitoxin. Find someone who is very talented with core necro or condi mirage and try to beat them, you'll understand pretty quickly.

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:
    But yes, no go on, you're right - let's slot max condi cleanses in every build we play so that we can counter the 2-3 builds that we infrequently run into, so that when we fight the builds that we would be fighting 80% of the time we'll be at a competitive disadvantage. Furthermore, realistic fights ? Throw that out the window. Theoretical cleanses is the only thing that matters. If it's possible to cleanse 20 condis in the first 30 seconds, that means it's always going to be possible/viable, yes. Cause I really love to just spam cleanses for 30 seconds straight without being able to focus on doing any lasting damage to the opponent, that's balanced gameplay right there.

    | Solemn [DoM][Fw][PAL][shrd] |
    | NSP (main) | Anvil Rock (alt)

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Condi dmg is necessary to balance out the immense sustain powercreep some classes in WvW still enjoy :

    engineer
    ranger
    necro

    These 3 above have innate sustain , can have access to long term boons on top medium-high base HP....condi is most times the only answer to them

    Yeah because bringing condi to a necro fight is always a brilliant idea.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    The time was we had people here posting screenshots of death breakdowns to various builds in PvP. They would show a chart where they died to 20000 power damage and then others where they died to 80000 and more condition damage. They would then suggest that this proved Condition damage OP. In reality it was exactly the opposite.

    Most people have only around 20k HPS . If you die to a power build with 22000 power point damage while it takes 80000 condition damage to kill you, this generally shows that there are more counters to Condition damage. You can not take 80000 in damage and still live unless there are counters and those counters are cleanses and heals forcing the condition player to start applying those stacks again.

    It's always interesting how very few people seem to realise this.

    I'm not sure if I understand, 80000 theoretical damage or 80000 actual damage? Long duration condi skills on low cooldown can do a lot of damage with only one button press, but they typically don't due to cleanse. That's what makes it not absurdly unbalanced. So to say that there was more theoretical condi damage than power is kind of the idea, isn't it?

    DPS is the only metric I'm interested in here

    | Solemn [DoM][Fw][PAL][shrd] |
    | NSP (main) | Anvil Rock (alt)

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Supreme.3164 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    I wouldn’t say it is a must to run a lot of anti-condi because I’ve seen skilled players make do with just a few.

    Properly avoiding bigger condi applications is something that most players do not know how to do (myself included). I rely a lot on stacking anti condi Options to out cleanse the conditions instead of avoiding its application.

    I used to run 8-9 anti condi options just to keep cleansing because I fail at dodging.
    I now run almost continuous condi clear because why dodge when you can keep cleansing every couple of seconds.

    Given that there are many anti condi tools for those who don’t know how to avoid bigger applications, I would say that condi is not OP.

    I’m more worried about the sustain now tbh. Core Necro definitely needs a hit in its signets and the heal in shroud trait. Just bring over the nerfs from PvP and it would be less broke. There is also a Low key Ele build I see someone play that seems to be very sustainy that might need a look at.

    I have yet to see a single ele roaming in T1 outside me on WSR.....but there are "thousand" of necros from scourge to core necro...from roaming to zerging, this ele build you talk about for being a lowkey build...it's pretty much nonexistent. Even "TOP" ele streamers ( just a couple of them) have stopped doing so in wvw.....

    They are skilled players who may be using ele time to time...I give you that, but there is nothing faceroll on ele..nothing on the same level of necro at least and the numbers alone do me justice

    Fair enough. I’m not very knowledgeable in ele so I can’t say for sure. I did see one doing very well though, outsustaining even against good players on power soulbeasts. But as you said, that ele might just be an even better player than those he fought.

    And just to clarify, I don’t mean ele as in core ele. That good player I saw was using a weaver 🙂

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Supreme.3164 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    I wouldn’t say it is a must to run a lot of anti-condi because I’ve seen skilled players make do with just a few.

    Properly avoiding bigger condi applications is something that most players do not know how to do (myself included). I rely a lot on stacking anti condi Options to out cleanse the conditions instead of avoiding its application.

    I used to run 8-9 anti condi options just to keep cleansing because I fail at dodging.
    I now run almost continuous condi clear because why dodge when you can keep cleansing every couple of seconds.

    Given that there are many anti condi tools for those who don’t know how to avoid bigger applications, I would say that condi is not OP.

    I’m more worried about the sustain now tbh. Core Necro definitely needs a hit in its signets and the heal in shroud trait. Just bring over the nerfs from PvP and it would be less broke. There is also a Low key Ele build I see someone play that seems to be very sustainy that might need a look at.

    I have yet to see a single ele roaming in T1 outside me on WSR.....but there are "thousand" of necros from scourge to core necro...from roaming to zerging, this ele build you talk about for being a lowkey build...it's pretty much nonexistent. Even "TOP" ele streamers ( just a couple of them) have stopped doing so in wvw.....

    They are skilled players who may be using ele time to time...I give you that, but there is nothing faceroll on ele..nothing on the same level of necro at least and the numbers alone do me justice

    Fair enough. I’m not very knowledgeable in ele so I can’t say for sure. I did see one doing very well though, outsustaining even against good players on power soulbeasts. But as you said, that ele might just be an even better player than those he fought.

    And just to clarify, I don’t mean ele as in core ele. That good player I saw was using a weaver 🙂

    I solo roam on fire weaver and I still feel very comfortable with it (before and after 2/25), but I almost never see other sword weavers roaming or in PvP. Most weavers I see run dagger and most of those are running LR builds. Core ele is even more rare, but tempests are pretty common (though they usually run with allies and play support).

    Here's a video of a renegade and a soulbeast turning me into a pincushion for a couple of minutes until I finally manage to overwhelm and finish them. There was a tempest, too, but he came over and bit off a lot more than he could chew before his friends could save him! Sorry, brother! But you did come over and pick that fight! :)

    I wonder what you guys think of this fight? Obviously, if I am winning 1v3 (or 1v2, whatever you wanna call this!), it's unlikely that my opponents are on my level (whatever that is!). But my class knowledge is terrible and I can't say for certain how skilled my opponents are in outnumbered fights. I'm too busy trying to stay alive and counter-pressure! Would you say it's the build that is OP? I am just a lot better than the guys I am fighting? It just seems like impressions of competitive modes in this game are so subjective, it's like we're all playing our own version of the game, specific to us. But I'd still be curious to hear some opinions on this condi build that most people don't seem to be complaining about (is it a "sleeper" build?).

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Supreme.3164 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    I wouldn’t say it is a must to run a lot of anti-condi because I’ve seen skilled players make do with just a few.

    Properly avoiding bigger condi applications is something that most players do not know how to do (myself included). I rely a lot on stacking anti condi Options to out cleanse the conditions instead of avoiding its application.

    I used to run 8-9 anti condi options just to keep cleansing because I fail at dodging.
    I now run almost continuous condi clear because why dodge when you can keep cleansing every couple of seconds.

    Given that there are many anti condi tools for those who don’t know how to avoid bigger applications, I would say that condi is not OP.

    I’m more worried about the sustain now tbh. Core Necro definitely needs a hit in its signets and the heal in shroud trait. Just bring over the nerfs from PvP and it would be less broke. There is also a Low key Ele build I see someone play that seems to be very sustainy that might need a look at.

    I have yet to see a single ele roaming in T1 outside me on WSR.....but there are "thousand" of necros from scourge to core necro...from roaming to zerging, this ele build you talk about for being a lowkey build...it's pretty much nonexistent. Even "TOP" ele streamers ( just a couple of them) have stopped doing so in wvw.....

    They are skilled players who may be using ele time to time...I give you that, but there is nothing faceroll on ele..nothing on the same level of necro at least and the numbers alone do me justice

    Fair enough. I’m not very knowledgeable in ele so I can’t say for sure. I did see one doing very well though, outsustaining even against good players on power soulbeasts. But as you said, that ele might just be an even better player than those he fought.

    And just to clarify, I don’t mean ele as in core ele. That good player I saw was using a weaver 🙂

    I solo roam on fire weaver and I still feel very comfortable with it (before and after 2/25), but I almost never see other sword weavers roaming or in PvP. Most weavers I see run dagger and most of those are running LR builds. Core ele is even more rare, but tempests are pretty common (though they usually run with allies and play support).

    Here's a video of a renegade and a soulbeast turning me into a pincushion for a couple of minutes until I finally manage to overwhelm and finish them. There was a tempest, too, but he came over and bit off a lot more than he could chew before his friends could save him! Sorry, brother! But you did come over and pick that fight! :)

    I wonder what you guys think of this fight? Obviously, if I am winning 1v3 (or 1v2, whatever you wanna call this!), it's unlikely that my opponents are on my level (whatever that is!). But my class knowledge is terrible and I can't say for certain how skilled my opponents are in outnumbered fights. I'm too busy trying to stay alive and counter-pressure! Would you say it's the build that is OP? I am just a lot better than the guys I am fighting? It just seems like impressions of competitive modes in this game are so subjective, it's like we're all playing our own version of the game, specific to us. But I'd still be curious to hear some opinions on this condi build that most people don't seem to be complaining about (is it a "sleeper" build?).

    I roam on my weaver/tempest 80% of the time. I find the sword fire weaver with sanct/antitoxin/dura/whatever rune a little bit boring for my play-style since the damage isn't top-notch, while sustain is OK. Your video shows exactly that - you outplay by resilience. It's fun sometimes.
    However, I've been running d/f or even d/d LR weaver / tempest more now - it's more high risk - high reward kind of build, and there is no greater pleasure to roll over some cocky necro or thief and 'ride the lightning' away :)

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    The time was we had people here posting screenshots of death breakdowns to various builds in PvP. They would show a chart where they died to 20000 power damage and then others where they died to 80000 and more condition damage. They would then suggest that this proved Condition damage OP. In reality it was exactly the opposite.

    Most people have only around 20k HPS . If you die to a power build with 22000 power point damage while it takes 80000 condition damage to kill you, this generally shows that there are more counters to Condition damage. You can not take 80000 in damage and still live unless there are counters and those counters are cleanses and heals forcing the condition player to start applying those stacks again.

    It's always interesting how very few people seem to realise this.

    I'm not sure if I understand, 80000 theoretical damage or 80000 actual damage? Long duration condi skills on low cooldown can do a lot of damage with only one button press, but they typically don't due to cleanse. That's what makes it not absurdly unbalanced. So to say that there was more theoretical condi damage than power is kind of the idea, isn't it?

    DPS is the only metric I'm interested in here

    Actual damage. In the death log in PvP it shows you the damage you have taken while you are on your feet. Pepe will post screenshots of them taking 60-100k+ Condi damage as some sort of justification that it's OP.

    Anyways the point of their post is of condi has such high dps then the log would show comparatively lower numbers, closer to their actual health max. Anytime you see a screenshot where someone has taken Condi damage far above that it shows how ineffective conditions are not the opposite.

  • @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    The time was we had people here posting screenshots of death breakdowns to various builds in PvP. They would show a chart where they died to 20000 power damage and then others where they died to 80000 and more condition damage. They would then suggest that this proved Condition damage OP. In reality it was exactly the opposite.

    Most people have only around 20k HPS . If you die to a power build with 22000 power point damage while it takes 80000 condition damage to kill you, this generally shows that there are more counters to Condition damage. You can not take 80000 in damage and still live unless there are counters and those counters are cleanses and heals forcing the condition player to start applying those stacks again.

    It's always interesting how very few people seem to realise this.

    I'm not sure if I understand, 80000 theoretical damage or 80000 actual damage? Long duration condi skills on low cooldown can do a lot of damage with only one button press, but they typically don't due to cleanse. That's what makes it not absurdly unbalanced. So to say that there was more theoretical condi damage than power is kind of the idea, isn't it?

    DPS is the only metric I'm interested in here

    Actual damage. In the death log in PvP it shows you the damage you have taken while you are on your feet. Pepe will post screenshots of them taking 60-100k+ Condi damage as some sort of justification that it's OP.

    Anyways the point of their post is of condi has such high dps then the log would show comparatively lower numbers, closer to their actual health max. Anytime you see a screenshot where someone has taken Condi damage far above that it shows how ineffective conditions are not the opposite.

    If they're taking damage which is 5 to 10 times the amount of their health, they're healing for a LOT or have dedicated healer. Maybe the issue is support builds. In 1v1 scenarios, condi is OP.

    | Solemn [DoM][Fw][PAL][shrd] |
    | NSP (main) | Anvil Rock (alt)

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 24, 2020

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    The time was we had people here posting screenshots of death breakdowns to various builds in PvP. They would show a chart where they died to 20000 power damage and then others where they died to 80000 and more condition damage. They would then suggest that this proved Condition damage OP. In reality it was exactly the opposite.

    Most people have only around 20k HPS . If you die to a power build with 22000 power point damage while it takes 80000 condition damage to kill you, this generally shows that there are more counters to Condition damage. You can not take 80000 in damage and still live unless there are counters and those counters are cleanses and heals forcing the condition player to start applying those stacks again.

    It's always interesting how very few people seem to realise this.

    I'm not sure if I understand, 80000 theoretical damage or 80000 actual damage? Long duration condi skills on low cooldown can do a lot of damage with only one button press, but they typically don't due to cleanse. That's what makes it not absurdly unbalanced. So to say that there was more theoretical condi damage than power is kind of the idea, isn't it?

    DPS is the only metric I'm interested in here

    Actual damage. In the death log in PvP it shows you the damage you have taken while you are on your feet. Pepe will post screenshots of them taking 60-100k+ Condi damage as some sort of justification that it's OP.

    Anyways the point of their post is of condi has such high dps then the log would show comparatively lower numbers, closer to their actual health max. Anytime you see a screenshot where someone has taken Condi damage far above that it shows how ineffective conditions are not the opposite.

    In 1v1 scenarios, condi is OP.

    As a whole it really isn't as a whole but you do you man. Its entirely scenario dependant, even in 1v1 instances.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 24, 2020

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    The time was we had people here posting screenshots of death breakdowns to various builds in PvP. They would show a chart where they died to 20000 power damage and then others where they died to 80000 and more condition damage. They would then suggest that this proved Condition damage OP. In reality it was exactly the opposite.

    Most people have only around 20k HPS . If you die to a power build with 22000 power point damage while it takes 80000 condition damage to kill you, this generally shows that there are more counters to Condition damage. You can not take 80000 in damage and still live unless there are counters and those counters are cleanses and heals forcing the condition player to start applying those stacks again.

    It's always interesting how very few people seem to realise this.

    I'm not sure if I understand, 80000 theoretical damage or 80000 actual damage? Long duration condi skills on low cooldown can do a lot of damage with only one button press, but they typically don't due to cleanse. That's what makes it not absurdly unbalanced. So to say that there was more theoretical condi damage than power is kind of the idea, isn't it?

    DPS is the only metric I'm interested in here

    Actual damage. In the death log in PvP it shows you the damage you have taken while you are on your feet. Pepe will post screenshots of them taking 60-100k+ Condi damage as some sort of justification that it's OP.

    Anyways the point of their post is of condi has such high dps then the log would show comparatively lower numbers, closer to their actual health max. Anytime you see a screenshot where someone has taken Condi damage far above that it shows how ineffective conditions are not the opposite.

    If they're taking damage which is 5 to 10 times the amount of their health, they're healing for a LOT or have dedicated healer. Maybe the issue is support builds. In 1v1 scenarios, condi is OP.

    No a dedicated healer is not needed. The CONDI total damage will always be several times higher than a players life total and much more pronounced then the power damage that shows in those logs. This is due to damage over time as opposed to singular large hits. It does not mean you need multiple heal sources. As example a person might heal once every 20 seconds with their main heal. When you face a Condition build you do not need an immediate heal. You can burn your health down as those ticks are doing damage and heal when health low. You can cleanse then heal forcing a restart of the Condition applications. This is very much unlike taking a 15k power damage hit where you pretty close to a forced heal. Added to those smaller heals like Regen or healing signet , adrenal and so on work more effectively against Conditions . If as example I have a 300 per torment tick and I have 300 per second in other heals such as outlined in ten seconds I will taken 3000 damage sum total but my health would still be full. This is NOT the same as taking 3000 damage in a singular hit as it now takes ten seconds to get that health back via that regen source.

    Again those death logs always show Condition damage deaths as 4 or 5 times higher then power damage deaths. If the heals equal then that dedicated healer should work just as effectively against power. That is not the case. People in PvP have shown those death breakdowns after 1v1's and it the same. Condition damage total before you drop is always higher meaning the Condition damage player has to inflict way more damage total in order to get a kill.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    So, if you don't need cleanses to win against condi builds, why would anyone take condi builds ? If everyone is using power builds and no cleanse because using condi or cleanse is a waste of time, why would those mechancis exists ?

  • @babazhook.6805 said:
    No a dedicated healer is not needed. The CONDI total damage will always be several times higher than a players life total and much more pronounced then the power damage that shows in those logs. This is due to damage over time as opposed to singular large hits. It does not mean you need multiple heal sources. As example a person might heal once every 20 seconds with their main heal. When you face a Condition build you do not need an immediate heal. You can burn your health down as those ticks are doing damage and heal when health low. You can cleanse then heal forcing a restart of the Condition applications. This is very much unlike taking a 15k power damage hit where you pretty close to a forced heal. Added to those smaller heals like Regen or healing signet , adrenal and so on work more effectively against Conditions . If as example I have a 300 per torment tick and I have 300 per second in other heals such as outlined in ten seconds I will taken 3000 damage sum total but my health would still be full. This is NOT the same as taking 3000 damage in a singular hit as it now takes ten seconds to get that health back via that regen source.

    Again those death logs always show Condition damage deaths as 4 or 5 times higher then power damage deaths. If the heals equal then that dedicated healer should work just as effectively against power. That is not the case. People in PvP have shown those death breakdowns after 1v1's and it the same. Condition damage total before you drop is always higher meaning the Condition damage player has to inflict way more damage total in order to get a kill.

    Ehhh.. I think I'm preaching to the choir at this point but for the record, I still don't understand how this is a valid argument for condi being underpowered / balanced.

    If a condi build's burst is 5k/s, i.e. burn guard ....
    Or a condi mesmer's burst is 4k/s, i.e. a competent condi mirage ...
    and a power build's burst is 4k/s, i.e. power rev, power reaper, literally anything power that is built correctly etc,
    or a deadeye 3-shots you doing 6k/s
    or a condi thief bleeds you down while you're off-cooldown doing 3k/s

    What is the big difference here that I'm apparently not seeing
    How is it being DOT not a moot point

    I understand that condi damage is dealt over time.
    If there were no cleanses, condi DPS+DOT would be absurdly unbalanced

    Condi DPS is still quite good

    I don't understand

    DPS is still DPS

    ???????????????

    | Solemn [DoM][Fw][PAL][shrd] |
    | NSP (main) | Anvil Rock (alt)

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    No a dedicated healer is not needed. The CONDI total damage will always be several times higher than a players life total and much more pronounced then the power damage that shows in those logs. This is due to damage over time as opposed to singular large hits. It does not mean you need multiple heal sources. As example a person might heal once every 20 seconds with their main heal. When you face a Condition build you do not need an immediate heal. You can burn your health down as those ticks are doing damage and heal when health low. You can cleanse then heal forcing a restart of the Condition applications. This is very much unlike taking a 15k power damage hit where you pretty close to a forced heal. Added to those smaller heals like Regen or healing signet , adrenal and so on work more effectively against Conditions . If as example I have a 300 per torment tick and I have 300 per second in other heals such as outlined in ten seconds I will taken 3000 damage sum total but my health would still be full. This is NOT the same as taking 3000 damage in a singular hit as it now takes ten seconds to get that health back via that regen source.

    Again those death logs always show Condition damage deaths as 4 or 5 times higher then power damage deaths. If the heals equal then that dedicated healer should work just as effectively against power. That is not the case. People in PvP have shown those death breakdowns after 1v1's and it the same. Condition damage total before you drop is always higher meaning the Condition damage player has to inflict way more damage total in order to get a kill.

    Ehhh.. I think I'm preaching to the choir at this point but for the record, I still don't understand how this is a valid argument for condi being underpowered / balanced.

    If a condi build's burst is 5k/s, i.e. burn guard ....
    Or a condi mesmer's burst is 4k/s, i.e. a competent condi mirage ...
    and a power build's burst is 4k/s, i.e. power rev, power reaper, literally anything power that is built correctly etc,
    or a deadeye 3-shots you doing 6k/s
    or a condi thief bleeds you down while you're off-cooldown doing 3k/s

    What is the big difference here that I'm apparently not seeing
    How is it being DOT not a moot point

    I understand that condi damage is dealt over time.
    If there were no cleanses, condi DPS+DOT would be absurdly unbalanced

    Condi DPS is still quite good

    I don't understand

    DPS is still DPS

    ???????????????

    The more prevalent are cleanses, the most bursty conditions must be to not be meaningless.
    If there was no cleanses at all, skills wouldn't apply several stacks at once, Burning damage would be reduced, condition base duration would be increased, and condi build would be the absolute top DPS, while power would be better at short bursts to deal the killing blow.

  • SoulSlavocracy.4902SoulSlavocracy.4902 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 24, 2020

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    The more prevalent are cleanses, the most bursty conditions must be to not be meaningless.
    If there was no cleanses at all, skills wouldn't apply several stacks at once, Burning damage would be reduced, condition base duration would be increased, and condi build would be the absolute top DPS, while power would be better at short bursts to deal the killing blow.

    Which is a fair point until you're off-cleanse for 4 seconds and find yourself 1/4 health suddenly. It's not like vs power builds where you can apply protection or utilize damage-reducing traits, you're just screwed if you get caught off-cleanse. Am I whining? That seems unfair to me.

    edit: it's similar to the feeling I get when I'm stunlocked. It's not a challenge. It does not require me to have some skillful reaction. All I can do is sit and die. That is what I don't like about it. You have too many condis on you suddenly and you're off-cleanse? There is literally nothing you can do about it, have fun dying. Same with being CC-spammed to death or feared for 10 seconds. It's silly.

    | Solemn [DoM][Fw][PAL][shrd] |
    | NSP (main) | Anvil Rock (alt)

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 25, 2020

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:
    I typed a long detailed post and decided to delete it because condi-mains will just reply with "jUsT cLeanSe JuSt DoDgE" regardless. You can't fix people like that and I won't try to change their minds.

    Fact of the matter: condi is OP and every competent player who wants to win at least 8/10 matchups is forced to run a build with antitoxin rune, or lose every time vs condi mirage, core necro, occasionally to burn guard, and condi rev (to an even lesser degree). There is simply not enough condi cleanse in the game to deal with these builds without specifically building against them (i.e. antitoxin fire weaver), sacrificing crucial traits that would be of value vs power enemies or forcing certain builds and decreasing build diversity/overall fun of the game...

    overpowered builds are overpowered, enough said. please don't take half a year to patch this.

    -solemn

    +1

    Toxicity were there before we decided to play WvW and PvP. The signs were there. We may have chosen to look the other way, but the signs were always there.

    There are no remedy or antiToxin in combating 8 years of rooted ignored Toxicity without removing it at its core root....

    or simply...walk away from it

    you and i deserve better of 8 years of neglect

    'Situations that are present are there because you allow and tolerate them to continue'

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    The more prevalent are cleanses, the most bursty conditions must be to not be meaningless.
    If there was no cleanses at all, skills wouldn't apply several stacks at once, Burning damage would be reduced, condition base duration would be increased, and condi build would be the absolute top DPS, while power would be better at short bursts to deal the killing blow.

    Which is a fair point until you're off-cleanse for 4 seconds and find yourself 1/4 health suddenly. It's not like vs power builds where you can apply protection or utilize damage-reducing traits, you're just screwed if you get caught off-cleanse. Am I whining? That seems unfair to me.

    edit: it's similar to the feeling I get when I'm stunlocked. It's not a challenge. It does not require me to have some skillful reaction. All I can do is sit and die. That is what I don't like about it. You have too many condis on you suddenly and you're off-cleanse? There is literally nothing you can do about it, have fun dying. Same with being CC-spammed to death or feared for 10 seconds. It's silly.

    You're a fire weaver, though, right? So here's what I don't get...

    Rotate fire for a condi cleanse. Rotate earth. Detonate + fire aura for a 3 condi cleanse. Flamewall (if convenient). Rotate air. Polaric leap combo off flamewall + magnetic wave for a 4 condi cleanse. Rotate water. Dodge for a condi cleanse. And so on.

    You have cleanse baked into literally every part of your rotation and you also have a million evades, reflects, projectile blocks, heals, barrier, invuln, counter-pressure and CC to buy time between them. Add cleansing sigil because it's a no-brainer and why would you ever need antitoxin runes?

    Even if they get the drop on you with a CC condi bomb that takes you low, you're a fire weaver! Recovering from burst is usually as easy as dodging and then rotating into an advantageous attunement.

    I know we aren't as strong as we were prior to 2/25, but this still feels like a versatile build that is well-equipped to handle a variety of builds both power and condi. But then again, I do seem to be somewhat on my own on this one. I can't say I see any other fire weavers out there and sword seems to be a rather unpopular choice? ::shrug:: Still works for me!

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026 said:

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    The more prevalent are cleanses, the most bursty conditions must be to not be meaningless.
    If there was no cleanses at all, skills wouldn't apply several stacks at once, Burning damage would be reduced, condition base duration would be increased, and condi build would be the absolute top DPS, while power would be better at short bursts to deal the killing blow.

    Which is a fair point until you're off-cleanse for 4 seconds and find yourself 1/4 health suddenly. It's not like vs power builds where you can apply protection or utilize damage-reducing traits, you're just screwed if you get caught off-cleanse. Am I whining? That seems unfair to me.

    There's a much much more powerful boon than protection against condi its called resistance.

    Also there's no way there's more dmg reducing traits than there is cleanses in the game.

    edit: it's similar to the feeling I get when I'm stunlocked. It's not a challenge. It does not require me to have some skillful reaction. All I can do is sit and die. That is what I don't like about it. You have too many condis on you suddenly and you're off-cleanse? There is literally nothing you can do about it, have fun dying. Same with being CC-spammed to death or feared for 10 seconds. It's silly.

    It requires you to manage your clears (or to just run something with enough clears to be essentially immune to condi /shrug).

    Managing your clears is a skill like any other and imo a far more interesting one than whatever skill is needed to avoid power dmg.

    You can have the opinion that condi is overpowered or unfun or whatever, that's your prerogative, I think you're wrong and that it's very much an l2p issue but it's kinda hard to prove one way or another. However saying it has less counterplay than power is just objectively wrong.

    Counterplay to power

    Dodging

    Blocking

    Invulns

    Damage reducers (protection, toughness, ascended food etc)

    Healing

    Counterplay to condi

    Dodging

    Damage reducers (righteous rebel, second skin, some food, various runes)

    Duration reducers (ascended food, various traits and runes)

    Resistance (!!!)

    Cleansing (traits, skills, sigils, runes, the best one being available at extremely low opportunity cost)

    Invulns

    Healing

    In addition to this, condi by design gives your more time to execute said counterplay than power does.

    Yes the big thing is time. Just as more time needed to get those stacks of conditions on and eventually wear out the opponent, the person on the receiving end has more time to use the heals, regen and cleanses. If you get into a fight against power or against Condition generally you will be able to use your heals more often against a condition build and this shows in those screenshots of sources of damage in Pvp.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 25, 2020

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    No a dedicated healer is not needed. The CONDI total damage will always be several times higher than a players life total and much more pronounced then the power damage that shows in those logs. This is due to damage over time as opposed to singular large hits. It does not mean you need multiple heal sources. As example a person might heal once every 20 seconds with their main heal. When you face a Condition build you do not need an immediate heal. You can burn your health down as those ticks are doing damage and heal when health low. You can cleanse then heal forcing a restart of the Condition applications. This is very much unlike taking a 15k power damage hit where you pretty close to a forced heal. Added to those smaller heals like Regen or healing signet , adrenal and so on work more effectively against Conditions . If as example I have a 300 per torment tick and I have 300 per second in other heals such as outlined in ten seconds I will taken 3000 damage sum total but my health would still be full. This is NOT the same as taking 3000 damage in a singular hit as it now takes ten seconds to get that health back via that regen source.

    Again those death logs always show Condition damage deaths as 4 or 5 times higher then power damage deaths. If the heals equal then that dedicated healer should work just as effectively against power. That is not the case. People in PvP have shown those death breakdowns after 1v1's and it the same. Condition damage total before you drop is always higher meaning the Condition damage player has to inflict way more damage total in order to get a kill.

    Ehhh.. I think I'm preaching to the choir at this point but for the record, I still don't understand how this is a valid argument for condi being underpowered / balanced.

    If a condi build's burst is 5k/s, i.e. burn guard ....
    Or a condi mesmer's burst is 4k/s, i.e. a competent condi mirage ...
    and a power build's burst is 4k/s, i.e. power rev, power reaper, literally anything power that is built correctly etc,
    or a deadeye 3-shots you doing 6k/s
    or a condi thief bleeds you down while you're off-cooldown doing 3k/s

    What is the big difference here that I'm apparently not seeing
    How is it being DOT not a moot point

    I understand that condi damage is dealt over time.
    If there were no cleanses, condi DPS+DOT would be absurdly unbalanced

    Condi DPS is still quite good

    I don't understand

    DPS is still DPS

    ???????????????

    DPS is not still DPS. The types of DPS are different.

    Lets just take a simple example. Now this just breaking it down to the bare basics for the sake of clarity.

    Two players each have 2000 HPS. Power player has a single big attack that can hit for 1500 damage and there no way to avoid it. That means he took the other player down to 500. This attack happens once every 10 seconds. Thats 150 DPS.

    The Condition player has an attack that can do 1500 damage over 10 seconds and there no way to avoid it. They are both doing the same amount of damage over that 10 second period but there no way the types of damage comparable.

    Assume there regen running and that the only heal and the person gets a 150 per tick regen.

    The player playing against the Condition build will never see his health drop below 2000. The person playing against the power build will at some point be down to 500 health. Where the condition player now needs 10 seconds to get back to full health , the Power player needs no such thing. They never have to use their regular heal.

    Now if both have a second attack that can do 700 damage , one over time and one instantly , that Power player could never lose such a matchup. Now obviously this is not what happens in game but it does show why Condition builds generally need that toughness and vitality from something like DIRE and TB.

    Consequently if there was a log detailing damage sources before death a person will see far more damage from Condition sources then from power sources before they die meaning that power is more efficient when looking at amount of damage needed to make a kill. This does not mean Conditions are Underpowered or that Power damage is OP. It merely means there IS a trade off in condition build and that trade off is more time is needed and it shows there plenty of Counter play to Conditions.

  • @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    The more prevalent are cleanses, the most bursty conditions must be to not be meaningless.
    If there was no cleanses at all, skills wouldn't apply several stacks at once, Burning damage would be reduced, condition base duration would be increased, and condi build would be the absolute top DPS, while power would be better at short bursts to deal the killing blow.

    Which is a fair point until you're off-cleanse for 4 seconds and find yourself 1/4 health suddenly. It's not like vs power builds where you can apply protection or utilize damage-reducing traits, you're just screwed if you get caught off-cleanse. Am I whining? That seems unfair to me.

    edit: it's similar to the feeling I get when I'm stunlocked. It's not a challenge. It does not require me to have some skillful reaction. All I can do is sit and die. That is what I don't like about it. You have too many condis on you suddenly and you're off-cleanse? There is literally nothing you can do about it, have fun dying. Same with being CC-spammed to death or feared for 10 seconds. It's silly.

    You're a fire weaver, though, right? So here's what I don't get...

    Rotate fire for a condi cleanse. Rotate earth. Detonate + fire aura for a 3 condi cleanse. Flamewall (if convenient). Rotate air. Polaric leap combo off flamewall + magnetic wave for a 4 condi cleanse. Rotate water. Dodge for a condi cleanse. And so on.

    You have cleanse baked into literally every part of your rotation and you also have a million evades, reflects, projectile blocks, heals, barrier, invuln, counter-pressure and CC to buy time between them. Add cleansing sigil because it's a no-brainer and why would you ever need antitoxin runes?

    Even if they get the drop on you with a CC condi bomb that takes you low, you're a fire weaver! Recovering from burst is usually as easy as dodging and then rotating into an advantageous attunement.

    I know we aren't as strong as we were prior to 2/25, but this still feels like a versatile build that is well-equipped to handle a variety of builds both power and condi. But then again, I do seem to be somewhat on my own on this one. I can't say I see any other fire weavers out there and sword seems to be a rather unpopular choice? ::shrug:: Still works for me!

    This is what I keep saying. I don't WANT to be forced to play fire weaver. I don't even WANT to play fire weaver most days, why should I be forced into it just to have a chance vs cond builds!?

    | Solemn [DoM][Fw][PAL][shrd] |
    | NSP (main) | Anvil Rock (alt)

  • @babazhook.6805 said:

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    No a dedicated healer is not needed. The CONDI total damage will always be several times higher than a players life total and much more pronounced then the power damage that shows in those logs. This is due to damage over time as opposed to singular large hits. It does not mean you need multiple heal sources. As example a person might heal once every 20 seconds with their main heal. When you face a Condition build you do not need an immediate heal. You can burn your health down as those ticks are doing damage and heal when health low. You can cleanse then heal forcing a restart of the Condition applications. This is very much unlike taking a 15k power damage hit where you pretty close to a forced heal. Added to those smaller heals like Regen or healing signet , adrenal and so on work more effectively against Conditions . If as example I have a 300 per torment tick and I have 300 per second in other heals such as outlined in ten seconds I will taken 3000 damage sum total but my health would still be full. This is NOT the same as taking 3000 damage in a singular hit as it now takes ten seconds to get that health back via that regen source.

    Again those death logs always show Condition damage deaths as 4 or 5 times higher then power damage deaths. If the heals equal then that dedicated healer should work just as effectively against power. That is not the case. People in PvP have shown those death breakdowns after 1v1's and it the same. Condition damage total before you drop is always higher meaning the Condition damage player has to inflict way more damage total in order to get a kill.

    Ehhh.. I think I'm preaching to the choir at this point but for the record, I still don't understand how this is a valid argument for condi being underpowered / balanced.

    If a condi build's burst is 5k/s, i.e. burn guard ....
    Or a condi mesmer's burst is 4k/s, i.e. a competent condi mirage ...
    and a power build's burst is 4k/s, i.e. power rev, power reaper, literally anything power that is built correctly etc,
    or a deadeye 3-shots you doing 6k/s
    or a condi thief bleeds you down while you're off-cooldown doing 3k/s

    What is the big difference here that I'm apparently not seeing
    How is it being DOT not a moot point

    I understand that condi damage is dealt over time.
    If there were no cleanses, condi DPS+DOT would be absurdly unbalanced

    Condi DPS is still quite good

    I don't understand

    DPS is still DPS

    ???????????????

    DPS is not still DPS. The types of DPS are different.

    Lets just take a simple example. Now this just breaking it down to the bare basics for the sake of clarity.

    Two players each have 2000 HPS. Power player has a single big attack that can hit for 1500 damage and there no way to avoid it. That means he took the other player down to 500. This attack happens once every 10 seconds. Thats 150 DPS.

    The Condition player has an attack that can do 1500 damage over 10 seconds and there no way to avoid it. They are both doing the same amount of damage over that 10 second period but there no way the types of damage comparable.

    Assume there regen running and that the only heal and the person gets a 150 per tick regen.

    The player playing against the Condition build will never see his health drop below 2000. The person playing against the power build will at some point be down to 500 health. Where the condition player now needs 10 seconds to get back to full health , the Power player needs no such thing. They never have to use their regular heal.

    Now if both have a second attack that can do 700 damage , one over time and one instantly , that Power player could never lose such a matchup. Now obviously this is not what happens in game but it does show why Condition builds generally need that toughness and vitality from something like DIRE and TB.

    Consequently if there was a log detailing damage sources before death a person will see far more damage from Condition sources then from power sources before they die meaning that power is more efficient when looking at amount of damage needed to make a kill. This does not mean Conditions are Underpowered or that Power damage is OP. It merely means there IS a trade off in condition build and that trade off is more time is needed and it shows there plenty of Counter play to Conditions.

    I understand the concept of DOT. Fact of the matter is that condi dps is still too high. Condi mirage presses 3 buttons and if you're off-cleanse you've just lost the battle.

    | Solemn [DoM][Fw][PAL][shrd] |
    | NSP (main) | Anvil Rock (alt)

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    The more prevalent are cleanses, the most bursty conditions must be to not be meaningless.
    If there was no cleanses at all, skills wouldn't apply several stacks at once, Burning damage would be reduced, condition base duration would be increased, and condi build would be the absolute top DPS, while power would be better at short bursts to deal the killing blow.

    Which is a fair point until you're off-cleanse for 4 seconds and find yourself 1/4 health suddenly. It's not like vs power builds where you can apply protection or utilize damage-reducing traits, you're just screwed if you get caught off-cleanse. Am I whining? That seems unfair to me.

    edit: it's similar to the feeling I get when I'm stunlocked. It's not a challenge. It does not require me to have some skillful reaction. All I can do is sit and die. That is what I don't like about it. You have too many condis on you suddenly and you're off-cleanse? There is literally nothing you can do about it, have fun dying. Same with being CC-spammed to death or feared for 10 seconds. It's silly.

    You're a fire weaver, though, right? So here's what I don't get...

    Rotate fire for a condi cleanse. Rotate earth. Detonate + fire aura for a 3 condi cleanse. Flamewall (if convenient). Rotate air. Polaric leap combo off flamewall + magnetic wave for a 4 condi cleanse. Rotate water. Dodge for a condi cleanse. And so on.

    You have cleanse baked into literally every part of your rotation and you also have a million evades, reflects, projectile blocks, heals, barrier, invuln, counter-pressure and CC to buy time between them. Add cleansing sigil because it's a no-brainer and why would you ever need antitoxin runes?

    Even if they get the drop on you with a CC condi bomb that takes you low, you're a fire weaver! Recovering from burst is usually as easy as dodging and then rotating into an advantageous attunement.

    I know we aren't as strong as we were prior to 2/25, but this still feels like a versatile build that is well-equipped to handle a variety of builds both power and condi. But then again, I do seem to be somewhat on my own on this one. I can't say I see any other fire weavers out there and sword seems to be a rather unpopular choice? ::shrug:: Still works for me!

    This is what I keep saying. I don't WANT to be forced to play fire weaver. I don't even WANT to play fire weaver most days, why should I be forced into it just to have a chance vs cond builds!?

    Water offers strong clears.

    Earth offers strong clears.

    Fire offers strong clears.

    Cleansing by itself offers enough clears for burstier mobile specs.

    It sounds to me like you want to play a build with 0 cleanses and still be able to facetank condi builds

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    No a dedicated healer is not needed. The CONDI total damage will always be several times higher than a players life total and much more pronounced then the power damage that shows in those logs. This is due to damage over time as opposed to singular large hits. It does not mean you need multiple heal sources. As example a person might heal once every 20 seconds with their main heal. When you face a Condition build you do not need an immediate heal. You can burn your health down as those ticks are doing damage and heal when health low. You can cleanse then heal forcing a restart of the Condition applications. This is very much unlike taking a 15k power damage hit where you pretty close to a forced heal. Added to those smaller heals like Regen or healing signet , adrenal and so on work more effectively against Conditions . If as example I have a 300 per torment tick and I have 300 per second in other heals such as outlined in ten seconds I will taken 3000 damage sum total but my health would still be full. This is NOT the same as taking 3000 damage in a singular hit as it now takes ten seconds to get that health back via that regen source.

    Again those death logs always show Condition damage deaths as 4 or 5 times higher then power damage deaths. If the heals equal then that dedicated healer should work just as effectively against power. That is not the case. People in PvP have shown those death breakdowns after 1v1's and it the same. Condition damage total before you drop is always higher meaning the Condition damage player has to inflict way more damage total in order to get a kill.

    Ehhh.. I think I'm preaching to the choir at this point but for the record, I still don't understand how this is a valid argument for condi being underpowered / balanced.

    If a condi build's burst is 5k/s, i.e. burn guard ....
    Or a condi mesmer's burst is 4k/s, i.e. a competent condi mirage ...
    and a power build's burst is 4k/s, i.e. power rev, power reaper, literally anything power that is built correctly etc,
    or a deadeye 3-shots you doing 6k/s
    or a condi thief bleeds you down while you're off-cooldown doing 3k/s

    What is the big difference here that I'm apparently not seeing
    How is it being DOT not a moot point

    I understand that condi damage is dealt over time.
    If there were no cleanses, condi DPS+DOT would be absurdly unbalanced

    Condi DPS is still quite good

    I don't understand

    DPS is still DPS

    ???????????????

    DPS is not still DPS. The types of DPS are different.

    Lets just take a simple example. Now this just breaking it down to the bare basics for the sake of clarity.

    Two players each have 2000 HPS. Power player has a single big attack that can hit for 1500 damage and there no way to avoid it. That means he took the other player down to 500. This attack happens once every 10 seconds. Thats 150 DPS.

    The Condition player has an attack that can do 1500 damage over 10 seconds and there no way to avoid it. They are both doing the same amount of damage over that 10 second period but there no way the types of damage comparable.

    Assume there regen running and that the only heal and the person gets a 150 per tick regen.

    The player playing against the Condition build will never see his health drop below 2000. The person playing against the power build will at some point be down to 500 health. Where the condition player now needs 10 seconds to get back to full health , the Power player needs no such thing. They never have to use their regular heal.

    Now if both have a second attack that can do 700 damage , one over time and one instantly , that Power player could never lose such a matchup. Now obviously this is not what happens in game but it does show why Condition builds generally need that toughness and vitality from something like DIRE and TB.

    Consequently if there was a log detailing damage sources before death a person will see far more damage from Condition sources then from power sources before they die meaning that power is more efficient when looking at amount of damage needed to make a kill. This does not mean Conditions are Underpowered or that Power damage is OP. It merely means there IS a trade off in condition build and that trade off is more time is needed and it shows there plenty of Counter play to Conditions.

    I understand the concept of DOT. Fact of the matter is that condi dps is still too high. Condi mirage presses 3 buttons and if you're off-cleanse you've just lost the battle.

    Then the fact of the matter is not that "condi dps is still to high".

    Its that mirage skills still applies too many stacks of torment (possibly that torment runes are too strong too).

    See the difference?

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 26, 2020

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    No a dedicated healer is not needed. The CONDI total damage will always be several times higher than a players life total and much more pronounced then the power damage that shows in those logs. This is due to damage over time as opposed to singular large hits. It does not mean you need multiple heal sources. As example a person might heal once every 20 seconds with their main heal. When you face a Condition build you do not need an immediate heal. You can burn your health down as those ticks are doing damage and heal when health low. You can cleanse then heal forcing a restart of the Condition applications. This is very much unlike taking a 15k power damage hit where you pretty close to a forced heal. Added to those smaller heals like Regen or healing signet , adrenal and so on work more effectively against Conditions . If as example I have a 300 per torment tick and I have 300 per second in other heals such as outlined in ten seconds I will taken 3000 damage sum total but my health would still be full. This is NOT the same as taking 3000 damage in a singular hit as it now takes ten seconds to get that health back via that regen source.

    Again those death logs always show Condition damage deaths as 4 or 5 times higher then power damage deaths. If the heals equal then that dedicated healer should work just as effectively against power. That is not the case. People in PvP have shown those death breakdowns after 1v1's and it the same. Condition damage total before you drop is always higher meaning the Condition damage player has to inflict way more damage total in order to get a kill.

    Ehhh.. I think I'm preaching to the choir at this point but for the record, I still don't understand how this is a valid argument for condi being underpowered / balanced.

    If a condi build's burst is 5k/s, i.e. burn guard ....
    Or a condi mesmer's burst is 4k/s, i.e. a competent condi mirage ...
    and a power build's burst is 4k/s, i.e. power rev, power reaper, literally anything power that is built correctly etc,
    or a deadeye 3-shots you doing 6k/s
    or a condi thief bleeds you down while you're off-cooldown doing 3k/s

    What is the big difference here that I'm apparently not seeing
    How is it being DOT not a moot point

    I understand that condi damage is dealt over time.
    If there were no cleanses, condi DPS+DOT would be absurdly unbalanced

    Condi DPS is still quite good

    I don't understand

    DPS is still DPS

    ???????????????

    DPS is not still DPS. The types of DPS are different.

    Lets just take a simple example. Now this just breaking it down to the bare basics for the sake of clarity.

    Two players each have 2000 HPS. Power player has a single big attack that can hit for 1500 damage and there no way to avoid it. That means he took the other player down to 500. This attack happens once every 10 seconds. Thats 150 DPS.

    The Condition player has an attack that can do 1500 damage over 10 seconds and there no way to avoid it. They are both doing the same amount of damage over that 10 second period but there no way the types of damage comparable.

    Assume there regen running and that the only heal and the person gets a 150 per tick regen.

    The player playing against the Condition build will never see his health drop below 2000. The person playing against the power build will at some point be down to 500 health. Where the condition player now needs 10 seconds to get back to full health , the Power player needs no such thing. They never have to use their regular heal.

    Now if both have a second attack that can do 700 damage , one over time and one instantly , that Power player could never lose such a matchup. Now obviously this is not what happens in game but it does show why Condition builds generally need that toughness and vitality from something like DIRE and TB.

    Consequently if there was a log detailing damage sources before death a person will see far more damage from Condition sources then from power sources before they die meaning that power is more efficient when looking at amount of damage needed to make a kill. This does not mean Conditions are Underpowered or that Power damage is OP. It merely means there IS a trade off in condition build and that trade off is more time is needed and it shows there plenty of Counter play to Conditions.

    I understand the concept of DOT. Fact of the matter is that condi dps is still too high. Condi mirage presses 3 buttons and if you're off-cleanse you've just lost the battle.

    And If I have used my last block or dodge and get hit by a 12000 damage power attack I have lost the battle. The other day I was not paying attention to a guardian nearby as I was focused on another. I was in a power build glassy spec with a little over 15k health. I was downed in one shot. While I could have dodged that shot if I had a dodge left to me once it hit I was DOWNED.

    I can be hit my that mesmer with that condition load from those buttons you talk about (3 buttons pushed as compared to that guardians one) and still manage to survive. What i find so contradictory when people who are convinced Condition builds OP is they will point out there fewer tells on some of the big condition attacks when compared to power. They are talking 1 second and less yet when a Condition applied they suddenly do not have time to do anything about it when they generally have several seconds to do so. You can react after a condition bomb loaded on you because it DOT and you have those seconds to cleanse, heal or throw up resistance. Swap weapons with a cleansing sigil if you need to.

    Now might there be outliers in specific condition damage builds that need looking at? Perhaps but that does not mean "Condi is OP' or that "There fewer Counters to Condi" or that there a problem with Condition damage based builds and the mechanics used.

  • Comus.7365Comus.7365 Member ✭✭

    i'm surprised that there's still people who haven't figured out how to counter condi. i've played mostly condi builds and now i'm starting to look more at power builds because for me it feels like everyone is just puking out cleanses left and right so i hardly get to do any damage.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    The more prevalent are cleanses, the most bursty conditions must be to not be meaningless.
    If there was no cleanses at all, skills wouldn't apply several stacks at once, Burning damage would be reduced, condition base duration would be increased, and condi build would be the absolute top DPS, while power would be better at short bursts to deal the killing blow.

    Which is a fair point until you're off-cleanse for 4 seconds and find yourself 1/4 health suddenly. It's not like vs power builds where you can apply protection or utilize damage-reducing traits, you're just screwed if you get caught off-cleanse. Am I whining? That seems unfair to me.

    edit: it's similar to the feeling I get when I'm stunlocked. It's not a challenge. It does not require me to have some skillful reaction. All I can do is sit and die. That is what I don't like about it. You have too many condis on you suddenly and you're off-cleanse? There is literally nothing you can do about it, have fun dying. Same with being CC-spammed to death or feared for 10 seconds. It's silly.

    You're a fire weaver, though, right? So here's what I don't get...

    Rotate fire for a condi cleanse. Rotate earth. Detonate + fire aura for a 3 condi cleanse. Flamewall (if convenient). Rotate air. Polaric leap combo off flamewall + magnetic wave for a 4 condi cleanse. Rotate water. Dodge for a condi cleanse. And so on.

    You have cleanse baked into literally every part of your rotation and you also have a million evades, reflects, projectile blocks, heals, barrier, invuln, counter-pressure and CC to buy time between them. Add cleansing sigil because it's a no-brainer and why would you ever need antitoxin runes?

    Even if they get the drop on you with a CC condi bomb that takes you low, you're a fire weaver! Recovering from burst is usually as easy as dodging and then rotating into an advantageous attunement.

    I know we aren't as strong as we were prior to 2/25, but this still feels like a versatile build that is well-equipped to handle a variety of builds both power and condi. But then again, I do seem to be somewhat on my own on this one. I can't say I see any other fire weavers out there and sword seems to be a rather unpopular choice? ::shrug:: Still works for me!

    This is what I keep saying. I don't WANT to be forced to play fire weaver. I don't even WANT to play fire weaver most days, why should I be forced into it just to have a chance vs cond builds!?

    Because Fire is the default DPS attunement for elementalist and you can't win if you don't do DPS.

  • @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    The more prevalent are cleanses, the most bursty conditions must be to not be meaningless.
    If there was no cleanses at all, skills wouldn't apply several stacks at once, Burning damage would be reduced, condition base duration would be increased, and condi build would be the absolute top DPS, while power would be better at short bursts to deal the killing blow.

    Which is a fair point until you're off-cleanse for 4 seconds and find yourself 1/4 health suddenly. It's not like vs power builds where you can apply protection or utilize damage-reducing traits, you're just screwed if you get caught off-cleanse. Am I whining? That seems unfair to me.

    edit: it's similar to the feeling I get when I'm stunlocked. It's not a challenge. It does not require me to have some skillful reaction. All I can do is sit and die. That is what I don't like about it. You have too many condis on you suddenly and you're off-cleanse? There is literally nothing you can do about it, have fun dying. Same with being CC-spammed to death or feared for 10 seconds. It's silly.

    You're a fire weaver, though, right? So here's what I don't get...

    Rotate fire for a condi cleanse. Rotate earth. Detonate + fire aura for a 3 condi cleanse. Flamewall (if convenient). Rotate air. Polaric leap combo off flamewall + magnetic wave for a 4 condi cleanse. Rotate water. Dodge for a condi cleanse. And so on.

    You have cleanse baked into literally every part of your rotation and you also have a million evades, reflects, projectile blocks, heals, barrier, invuln, counter-pressure and CC to buy time between them. Add cleansing sigil because it's a no-brainer and why would you ever need antitoxin runes?

    Even if they get the drop on you with a CC condi bomb that takes you low, you're a fire weaver! Recovering from burst is usually as easy as dodging and then rotating into an advantageous attunement.

    I know we aren't as strong as we were prior to 2/25, but this still feels like a versatile build that is well-equipped to handle a variety of builds both power and condi. But then again, I do seem to be somewhat on my own on this one. I can't say I see any other fire weavers out there and sword seems to be a rather unpopular choice? ::shrug:: Still works for me!

    Yes of course fire weaver still works very well against condi.
    I don't want to play fire weaver anymore though.

    | Solemn [DoM][Fw][PAL][shrd] |
    | NSP (main) | Anvil Rock (alt)

  • @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    The more prevalent are cleanses, the most bursty conditions must be to not be meaningless.
    If there was no cleanses at all, skills wouldn't apply several stacks at once, Burning damage would be reduced, condition base duration would be increased, and condi build would be the absolute top DPS, while power would be better at short bursts to deal the killing blow.

    Which is a fair point until you're off-cleanse for 4 seconds and find yourself 1/4 health suddenly. It's not like vs power builds where you can apply protection or utilize damage-reducing traits, you're just screwed if you get caught off-cleanse. Am I whining? That seems unfair to me.

    edit: it's similar to the feeling I get when I'm stunlocked. It's not a challenge. It does not require me to have some skillful reaction. All I can do is sit and die. That is what I don't like about it. You have too many condis on you suddenly and you're off-cleanse? There is literally nothing you can do about it, have fun dying. Same with being CC-spammed to death or feared for 10 seconds. It's silly.

    You're a fire weaver, though, right? So here's what I don't get...

    Rotate fire for a condi cleanse. Rotate earth. Detonate + fire aura for a 3 condi cleanse. Flamewall (if convenient). Rotate air. Polaric leap combo off flamewall + magnetic wave for a 4 condi cleanse. Rotate water. Dodge for a condi cleanse. And so on.

    You have cleanse baked into literally every part of your rotation and you also have a million evades, reflects, projectile blocks, heals, barrier, invuln, counter-pressure and CC to buy time between them. Add cleansing sigil because it's a no-brainer and why would you ever need antitoxin runes?

    Even if they get the drop on you with a CC condi bomb that takes you low, you're a fire weaver! Recovering from burst is usually as easy as dodging and then rotating into an advantageous attunement.

    I know we aren't as strong as we were prior to 2/25, but this still feels like a versatile build that is well-equipped to handle a variety of builds both power and condi. But then again, I do seem to be somewhat on my own on this one. I can't say I see any other fire weavers out there and sword seems to be a rather unpopular choice? ::shrug:: Still works for me!

    This is what I keep saying. I don't WANT to be forced to play fire weaver. I don't even WANT to play fire weaver most days, why should I be forced into it just to have a chance vs cond builds!?

    Because Fire is the default DPS attunement for elementalist and you can't win if you don't do DPS.

    Can't tell if sarcastic or genuine so I'll answer literally - no it isn't. Running lightning is much more fun and does VERY good dps.

    | Solemn [DoM][Fw][PAL][shrd] |
    | NSP (main) | Anvil Rock (alt)

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    The more prevalent are cleanses, the most bursty conditions must be to not be meaningless.
    If there was no cleanses at all, skills wouldn't apply several stacks at once, Burning damage would be reduced, condition base duration would be increased, and condi build would be the absolute top DPS, while power would be better at short bursts to deal the killing blow.

    Which is a fair point until you're off-cleanse for 4 seconds and find yourself 1/4 health suddenly. It's not like vs power builds where you can apply protection or utilize damage-reducing traits, you're just screwed if you get caught off-cleanse. Am I whining? That seems unfair to me.

    edit: it's similar to the feeling I get when I'm stunlocked. It's not a challenge. It does not require me to have some skillful reaction. All I can do is sit and die. That is what I don't like about it. You have too many condis on you suddenly and you're off-cleanse? There is literally nothing you can do about it, have fun dying. Same with being CC-spammed to death or feared for 10 seconds. It's silly.

    You're a fire weaver, though, right? So here's what I don't get...

    Rotate fire for a condi cleanse. Rotate earth. Detonate + fire aura for a 3 condi cleanse. Flamewall (if convenient). Rotate air. Polaric leap combo off flamewall + magnetic wave for a 4 condi cleanse. Rotate water. Dodge for a condi cleanse. And so on.

    You have cleanse baked into literally every part of your rotation and you also have a million evades, reflects, projectile blocks, heals, barrier, invuln, counter-pressure and CC to buy time between them. Add cleansing sigil because it's a no-brainer and why would you ever need antitoxin runes?

    Even if they get the drop on you with a CC condi bomb that takes you low, you're a fire weaver! Recovering from burst is usually as easy as dodging and then rotating into an advantageous attunement.

    I know we aren't as strong as we were prior to 2/25, but this still feels like a versatile build that is well-equipped to handle a variety of builds both power and condi. But then again, I do seem to be somewhat on my own on this one. I can't say I see any other fire weavers out there and sword seems to be a rather unpopular choice? ::shrug:: Still works for me!

    This is what I keep saying. I don't WANT to be forced to play fire weaver. I don't even WANT to play fire weaver most days, why should I be forced into it just to have a chance vs cond builds!?

    Because Fire is the default DPS attunement for elementalist and you can't win if you don't do DPS.

    Can't tell if sarcastic or genuine so I'll answer literally - no it isn't. Running lightning is much more fun and does VERY good dps.

    I really can't tell if you guys are on about the attunement or the traitline in this exchange. Though its fun to see D/D Weaver

  • Widmo.3186Widmo.3186 Member ✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Supreme.3164 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    I wouldn’t say it is a must to run a lot of anti-condi because I’ve seen skilled players make do with just a few.

    Properly avoiding bigger condi applications is something that most players do not know how to do (myself included). I rely a lot on stacking anti condi Options to out cleanse the conditions instead of avoiding its application.

    I used to run 8-9 anti condi options just to keep cleansing because I fail at dodging.
    I now run almost continuous condi clear because why dodge when you can keep cleansing every couple of seconds.

    Given that there are many anti condi tools for those who don’t know how to avoid bigger applications, I would say that condi is not OP.

    I’m more worried about the sustain now tbh. Core Necro definitely needs a hit in its signets and the heal in shroud trait. Just bring over the nerfs from PvP and it would be less broke. There is also a Low key Ele build I see someone play that seems to be very sustainy that might need a look at.

    I have yet to see a single ele roaming in T1 outside me on WSR.....but there are "thousand" of necros from scourge to core necro...from roaming to zerging, this ele build you talk about for being a lowkey build...it's pretty much nonexistent. Even "TOP" ele streamers ( just a couple of them) have stopped doing so in wvw.....

    They are skilled players who may be using ele time to time...I give you that, but there is nothing faceroll on ele..nothing on the same level of necro at least and the numbers alone do me justice

    Fair enough. I’m not very knowledgeable in ele so I can’t say for sure. I did see one doing very well though, outsustaining even against good players on power soulbeasts. But as you said, that ele might just be an even better player than those he fought.

    And just to clarify, I don’t mean ele as in core ele. That good player I saw was using a weaver 🙂

    I solo roam on fire weaver and I still feel very comfortable with it (before and after 2/25), but I almost never see other sword weavers roaming or in PvP. Most weavers I see run dagger and most of those are running LR builds. Core ele is even more rare, but tempests are pretty common (though they usually run with allies and play support).

    Here's a video of a renegade and a soulbeast turning me into a pincushion for a couple of minutes until I finally manage to overwhelm and finish them. There was a tempest, too, but he came over and bit off a lot more than he could chew before his friends could save him! Sorry, brother! But you did come over and pick that fight! :)

    I wonder what you guys think of this fight? Obviously, if I am winning 1v3 (or 1v2, whatever you wanna call this!), it's unlikely that my opponents are on my level (whatever that is!). But my class knowledge is terrible and I can't say for certain how skilled my opponents are in outnumbered fights. I'm too busy trying to stay alive and counter-pressure! Would you say it's the build that is OP? I am just a lot better than the guys I am fighting? It just seems like impressions of competitive modes in this game are so subjective, it's like we're all playing our own version of the game, specific to us. But I'd still be curious to hear some opinions on this condi build that most people don't seem to be complaining about (is it a "sleeper" build?).

    Thats simple, because sword is dead. Dagger MH is meta and there shouldnt be any doubts, Dagger OH is just bad and stupidity of cmc or other balance dev that silently nerfed Updraft aint helping. Sword nerfs on both evades and stability makes it hardly viable, especially for power, you have little passive damage (because they took Primordial Stance) and each CC can be your death. That makes my spec, that I played since the start of PoF till its very end (Feb patch) - sw/d power - dead. Condi (fireweaver) is still available because of condi, which is passive damage and you simply dont care about stuns, damage will still flow. How ironic, ANet killed avatarsword when they were aiming for fireweaver, and fireweaver is still fine.
    Personally I spit on ele condi builds, can play both core d/d and old avatarsword but only because I perfectly know its limits and when/how to put pressure (high leg player, blahblahblah) so each fight doesnt end as stalemate. Its masochistic, LR Weaver is just better in almost every way and that makes me sad.

    Roaming now is boring anyways. The amount of ppl that play bunker/condi builds is just hillarious, we swapped 10k crits for 10 minutes fights, whoever makes more mistakes because of boredom - loses. But in media res of our topic - ele shouldnt have much problems with condis. If you take fire - just use auras, if you take water - just use F2, if you take Weaver - just read traits. Other classes can easily handle condi problem as well, you dont need to sacrifice anything, just swap one or two traits/skills and should be fine. As already said, boring meta.

    PS: About the video - lots of mistakes (probably because as you said, low class knowledge) and enemies are one of those backpedaling....sheeps. But at least we can see example of how condi carries ppl ^.^

    Dont mind me, I just randomly spam 35 skill-buttons
    25.02.2020 edit - Nevermind, now I spam only 29 skill-buttons

  • Supreme.3164Supreme.3164 Member ✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Supreme.3164 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    I wouldn’t say it is a must to run a lot of anti-condi because I’ve seen skilled players make do with just a few.

    Properly avoiding bigger condi applications is something that most players do not know how to do (myself included). I rely a lot on stacking anti condi Options to out cleanse the conditions instead of avoiding its application.

    I used to run 8-9 anti condi options just to keep cleansing because I fail at dodging.
    I now run almost continuous condi clear because why dodge when you can keep cleansing every couple of seconds.

    Given that there are many anti condi tools for those who don’t know how to avoid bigger applications, I would say that condi is not OP.

    I’m more worried about the sustain now tbh. Core Necro definitely needs a hit in its signets and the heal in shroud trait. Just bring over the nerfs from PvP and it would be less broke. There is also a Low key Ele build I see someone play that seems to be very sustainy that might need a look at.

    I have yet to see a single ele roaming in T1 outside me on WSR.....but there are "thousand" of necros from scourge to core necro...from roaming to zerging, this ele build you talk about for being a lowkey build...it's pretty much nonexistent. Even "TOP" ele streamers ( just a couple of them) have stopped doing so in wvw.....

    They are skilled players who may be using ele time to time...I give you that, but there is nothing faceroll on ele..nothing on the same level of necro at least and the numbers alone do me justice

    Fair enough. I’m not very knowledgeable in ele so I can’t say for sure. I did see one doing very well though, outsustaining even against good players on power soulbeasts. But as you said, that ele might just be an even better player than those he fought.

    And just to clarify, I don’t mean ele as in core ele. That good player I saw was using a weaver 🙂

    I solo roam on fire weaver and I still feel very comfortable with it (before and after 2/25), but I almost never see other sword weavers roaming or in PvP. Most weavers I see run dagger and most of those are running LR builds. Core ele is even more rare, but tempests are pretty common (though they usually run with allies and play support).

    Here's a video of a renegade and a soulbeast turning me into a pincushion for a couple of minutes until I finally manage to overwhelm and finish them. There was a tempest, too, but he came over and bit off a lot more than he could chew before his friends could save him! Sorry, brother! But you did come over and pick that fight! :)

    I wonder what you guys think of this fight? Obviously, if I am winning 1v3 (or 1v2, whatever you wanna call this!), it's unlikely that my opponents are on my level (whatever that is!). But my class knowledge is terrible and I can't say for certain how skilled my opponents are in outnumbered fights. I'm too busy trying to stay alive and counter-pressure! Would you say it's the build that is OP? I am just a lot better than the guys I am fighting? It just seems like impressions of competitive modes in this game are so subjective, it's like we're all playing our own version of the game, specific to us. But I'd still be curious to hear some opinions on this condi build that most people don't seem to be complaining about (is it a "sleeper" build?).

    That build get obliterated by any serious roaming spec minus try hard d/p or s/d thieves which can jump on DE and still rock your world

    • ranger can easily outclean/outsustain if using high CC buld with rock gazelle
    • dh burn can easily burst you down, assuming you're running fire/arcana and not fire/water in which case...you still end up not doing enough dmg in the end to win
    • condi rev can murder you easily
    • shout warrior will laugh at you

    No..you can't win fire weaver against competent players used to your spec

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I really need to learn how to play ranger for purpose or lotr rp.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    i dont think conditions are that OP, besides only fire is overperforming under some conditions...

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    i dont think conditions are that OP, besides only fire is overperforming under some conditions...

    If tourment and burn applies together then yes, that's when the problem shows but outside of that . It's the vul stacks and pow will pew pew

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Supreme.3164 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Supreme.3164 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    I wouldn’t say it is a must to run a lot of anti-condi because I’ve seen skilled players make do with just a few.

    Properly avoiding bigger condi applications is something that most players do not know how to do (myself included). I rely a lot on stacking anti condi Options to out cleanse the conditions instead of avoiding its application.

    I used to run 8-9 anti condi options just to keep cleansing because I fail at dodging.
    I now run almost continuous condi clear because why dodge when you can keep cleansing every couple of seconds.

    Given that there are many anti condi tools for those who don’t know how to avoid bigger applications, I would say that condi is not OP.

    I’m more worried about the sustain now tbh. Core Necro definitely needs a hit in its signets and the heal in shroud trait. Just bring over the nerfs from PvP and it would be less broke. There is also a Low key Ele build I see someone play that seems to be very sustainy that might need a look at.

    I have yet to see a single ele roaming in T1 outside me on WSR.....but there are "thousand" of necros from scourge to core necro...from roaming to zerging, this ele build you talk about for being a lowkey build...it's pretty much nonexistent. Even "TOP" ele streamers ( just a couple of them) have stopped doing so in wvw.....

    They are skilled players who may be using ele time to time...I give you that, but there is nothing faceroll on ele..nothing on the same level of necro at least and the numbers alone do me justice

    Fair enough. I’m not very knowledgeable in ele so I can’t say for sure. I did see one doing very well though, outsustaining even against good players on power soulbeasts. But as you said, that ele might just be an even better player than those he fought.

    And just to clarify, I don’t mean ele as in core ele. That good player I saw was using a weaver 🙂

    I solo roam on fire weaver and I still feel very comfortable with it (before and after 2/25), but I almost never see other sword weavers roaming or in PvP. Most weavers I see run dagger and most of those are running LR builds. Core ele is even more rare, but tempests are pretty common (though they usually run with allies and play support).

    Here's a video of a renegade and a soulbeast turning me into a pincushion for a couple of minutes until I finally manage to overwhelm and finish them. There was a tempest, too, but he came over and bit off a lot more than he could chew before his friends could save him! Sorry, brother! But you did come over and pick that fight! :)

    I wonder what you guys think of this fight? Obviously, if I am winning 1v3 (or 1v2, whatever you wanna call this!), it's unlikely that my opponents are on my level (whatever that is!). But my class knowledge is terrible and I can't say for certain how skilled my opponents are in outnumbered fights. I'm too busy trying to stay alive and counter-pressure! Would you say it's the build that is OP? I am just a lot better than the guys I am fighting? It just seems like impressions of competitive modes in this game are so subjective, it's like we're all playing our own version of the game, specific to us. But I'd still be curious to hear some opinions on this condi build that most people don't seem to be complaining about (is it a "sleeper" build?).

    That build get obliterated by any serious roaming spec minus try hard d/p or s/d thieves which can jump on DE and still rock your world

    • ranger can easily outclean/outsustain if using high CC buld with rock gazelle
    • dh burn can easily burst you down, assuming you're running fire/arcana and not fire/water in which case...you still end up not doing enough dmg in the end to win
    • condi rev can murder you easily
    • shout warrior will laugh at you

    No..you can't win fire weaver against competent players used to your spec

    Okay, thanks! If I start having trouble, now I know to look for those builds as specific counters to mine. The more you know!

    So, what about builds that didn't make the list? Honestly, I like my odds if these 4 builds are the only thing that just hard counters me. But it hardly matters. I'm not some pro streamer that other players chase around running counter builds just to see if they can embarrass me on my twitch stream. Nobody is switching to shout warrior just to beat me and, if they are, I'm thrilled that I played well enough that you felt the need to do that!

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Widmo.3186 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Supreme.3164 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    I wouldn’t say it is a must to run a lot of anti-condi because I’ve seen skilled players make do with just a few.

    Properly avoiding bigger condi applications is something that most players do not know how to do (myself included). I rely a lot on stacking anti condi Options to out cleanse the conditions instead of avoiding its application.

    I used to run 8-9 anti condi options just to keep cleansing because I fail at dodging.
    I now run almost continuous condi clear because why dodge when you can keep cleansing every couple of seconds.

    Given that there are many anti condi tools for those who don’t know how to avoid bigger applications, I would say that condi is not OP.

    I’m more worried about the sustain now tbh. Core Necro definitely needs a hit in its signets and the heal in shroud trait. Just bring over the nerfs from PvP and it would be less broke. There is also a Low key Ele build I see someone play that seems to be very sustainy that might need a look at.

    I have yet to see a single ele roaming in T1 outside me on WSR.....but there are "thousand" of necros from scourge to core necro...from roaming to zerging, this ele build you talk about for being a lowkey build...it's pretty much nonexistent. Even "TOP" ele streamers ( just a couple of them) have stopped doing so in wvw.....

    They are skilled players who may be using ele time to time...I give you that, but there is nothing faceroll on ele..nothing on the same level of necro at least and the numbers alone do me justice

    Fair enough. I’m not very knowledgeable in ele so I can’t say for sure. I did see one doing very well though, outsustaining even against good players on power soulbeasts. But as you said, that ele might just be an even better player than those he fought.

    And just to clarify, I don’t mean ele as in core ele. That good player I saw was using a weaver 🙂

    I solo roam on fire weaver and I still feel very comfortable with it (before and after 2/25), but I almost never see other sword weavers roaming or in PvP. Most weavers I see run dagger and most of those are running LR builds. Core ele is even more rare, but tempests are pretty common (though they usually run with allies and play support).

    Here's a video of a renegade and a soulbeast turning me into a pincushion for a couple of minutes until I finally manage to overwhelm and finish them. There was a tempest, too, but he came over and bit off a lot more than he could chew before his friends could save him! Sorry, brother! But you did come over and pick that fight! :)

    I wonder what you guys think of this fight? Obviously, if I am winning 1v3 (or 1v2, whatever you wanna call this!), it's unlikely that my opponents are on my level (whatever that is!). But my class knowledge is terrible and I can't say for certain how skilled my opponents are in outnumbered fights. I'm too busy trying to stay alive and counter-pressure! Would you say it's the build that is OP? I am just a lot better than the guys I am fighting? It just seems like impressions of competitive modes in this game are so subjective, it's like we're all playing our own version of the game, specific to us. But I'd still be curious to hear some opinions on this condi build that most people don't seem to be complaining about (is it a "sleeper" build?).

    Thats simple, because sword is dead. Dagger MH is meta and there shouldnt be any doubts, Dagger OH is just bad and stupidity of cmc or other balance dev that silently nerfed Updraft aint helping. Sword nerfs on both evades and stability makes it hardly viable, especially for power, you have little passive damage (because they took Primordial Stance) and each CC can be your death. That makes my spec, that I played since the start of PoF till its very end (Feb patch) - sw/d power - dead. Condi (fireweaver) is still available because of condi, which is passive damage and you simply dont care about stuns, damage will still flow. How ironic, ANet killed avatarsword when they were aiming for fireweaver, and fireweaver is still fine.
    Personally I spit on ele condi builds, can play both core d/d and old avatarsword but only because I perfectly know its limits and when/how to put pressure (high leg player, blahblahblah) so each fight doesnt end as stalemate. Its masochistic, LR Weaver is just better in almost every way and that makes me sad.

    Roaming now is boring anyways. The amount of ppl that play bunker/condi builds is just hillarious, we swapped 10k crits for 10 minutes fights, whoever makes more mistakes because of boredom - loses. But in media res of our topic - ele shouldnt have much problems with condis. If you take fire - just use auras, if you take water - just use F2, if you take Weaver - just read traits. Other classes can easily handle condi problem as well, you dont need to sacrifice anything, just swap one or two traits/skills and should be fine. As already said, boring meta.

    PS: About the video - lots of mistakes (probably because as you said, low class knowledge) and enemies are one of those backpedaling....sheeps. But at least we can see example of how condi carries ppl ^.^

    Well, you aren't salty at all, are you? LoL

    Hey, thanks for the critique. I am certainly not playing at your level! It's a shame you had to spend so much time ranting about the things you hate about...so many things? I would have been interested in hearing more about your thoughts on dagger vs. sword. I don't know dagger for weaver yet, but maybe there is something to try next!