Cutting down on CC

Since stability has been largely cut down cc should be too because people like to actually play the game not just watch themselves die in a cc chain. I think the best way to fix the cc problem is to decrease amount of cc in the game, increase cooldown of cc abilities. There is also question of daze. Dazes still do damage despite being almost as good as other cc that doesn't do damage. I think dazes should be split into two categories long daze and microdaze. Microdazes should last only 1/4 second and can be used as way to interrupt skills mainly but at the same time still do damage. Long dazes on the other hand should lose the damage they deal. Each weapon should generally have only 1 hard cc (long daze is hard cc, microdaze is not), but it is important to not stick to this rule strictly because that would mean class identity could be endangered.

I will give examples of changes for classes that I know enough about, that doesn't means other classes that have too much cc shouldn't be nerfed.

Elementalist

Dagger main hand:Shocking aura - can effect each player once every 5 seconds (instead of current 2 seconds), exploding aura should still stun even if target was stunned by your shocking aura. This would mean you can get stunned only once by hitting someone that has shocking aura, elementalist still has potential to chain cc you with a followed up explosion of the aura, but others cannot (in you are running aura share). Increase cooldown to 30 seconds. Tempest still has access to triple shocking aura which counters melee engage from enemy team but is not as powerful.Katabatic Wind - should be changed to micro daze that does damage. Increase cooldown to 20 seconds.Mud Slide - only knockdowns when hitting people, walking into mud cripples them instead of knocking them down. Increase cooldown to 25 seconds.

Focus:Gale - this skill should be reworked to either do big damage or give some mobility or combination of both, maybe you can just give it Lighting Leap from lighting hammer with more damage and longer cooldown and no quickness (part of elementalist identity is that I normally does not have quickness boon).Comet - long daze so it should lose damage increase cooldown to 30 or even 35 seconds.

Dagger offhand:Updraft - this skill should be reworked to do damage, maybe keep the evade. Another option is to make it Invoke lighting from Lighting hammer.

Tornado:Tornado 5 opening is a fun skill to use and watch, but it is very stupid when you can chain cc someone for entire duration of tornado. Cooldown was already increased and could be increase further to 120 seconds.Debris tornado - should be changed to a micro daze for people inside the tornado, gets damage back. Cooldown increased to 3 seconds.

Conjure Earth Shield:Magnetic Surge - change it to micro daze so it keeps the damage.

Revenant

This class as a whole is problematic, because of energy and double amount of utility skills it is very hard to play. Only best mechanical players with a lot of practice on this class can show its true (over)power. In the past this class was so overpowered that even not so good players could do well on it. This class has been in competitive meta ever since it was released without any time periods when it wasn't meta as far as I am aware, please correct me if I am wrong. This class would need to be nerfed to a state where it isn't overpowered in competitive anymore which would lead to class being very bad in lower levels of play. I think it would be a shame to dumb down best designed class in the game just so it can be played in lower elo.

Renegade:This spec needs to be reworked but I don't see that happening anytime soon. So here is a quick 'fix' in terms of cc.Darkrazor's Daring - increase interval to 3 seconds and increase cooldown to 25 seconds.

Dwarf:Forced Engagement - increase cooldown to 25 seconds.

Shiro:Jade Winds - yes it costs 50 energy but it stuns for 3 seconds, decrease stun duration to 2 seconds.

Ranger

Pets:Pets in current state are terribly designed, they need to be cleansed like the classes were cleansed on 25th of February, they were clearly forgotten. All the pets should have cc removed unless it is a beast ability. Beast ability cc should follow the same rule of no damage as classes. Power ratios on pets should be adjusted the same way or even more harshly then the classes were (no more bird 4k autoattacks). To compensate for that pets should become more durable (more HP and im talking double) additionally they should cleanse a condition on themselves every 3 seconds because currently ranger has no ability to cleanse his pet can only heal it, maybe this could become a trait in beastmastery to replace one of the passives. Pets should have a shorter range in which they can go away from ranger. A lot of beast abilities could be changed to being utility like smokefield, water field ect.

Greatsword:If pets do get nerfed recent nerfs to GS should be reverted.Counterattack Kick - remove this.

Conclusion

I would like to say that overall purge of powercreep on 25th of February was a success but clearly some things were forgotten about and not thought off when making the changes. I am also aware you are not done making changes and that trait passives are getting replaced with new traits. I think in addition to problem of cc spam there is also far too much weakness which is one of the strongest conditions. Also please stop removing amulets from the PvP I would like to see more of them not less, knights amulet wasn't the problem, prot holo, ranger pets and bunker necro are.

@Cal Cohen.2358

AYAYA

No. Most CC is obvious animations/tells. Dodge it, pop stab, use aegis, use blocks, use blinds, etc.

This forum is obsessed with turning this mode into a bunker v bunker face tanking a node without ever using a dodge or their brain.

@Drennon.7190 said:No. Most CC is obvious animations/tells. Dodge it, pop stab, use aegis, use blocks, use blinds, etc.

This forum is obsessed with turning this mode into a bunker v bunker face tanking a node without ever using a dodge or their brain.

Ah yes the classic just dodge it 4Head. Mostly classes don't have stab, aegis or blocks or have very limited amount. And people don't decide for builds with blinds because blind have very small value against everything else.

Bunkers and CC is connected how exactly? Bunkers having more access to cc just helps them waste more time when they get outnumbered. Even if cc is nerfed 2 or 3 people can chain cc a bunker, more CC would just overlap. CC is most effective against glass cannon builds not vs bunkers. Yes water weaver was weak against cc and used evades to avoid damage and heal itself but current bunkers just face tank damage and sustain it.

@"McPero.3287" said:

Dwarf:Forced Engagement - increase cooldown to 25 seconds.

Shiro:Jade Winds - yes it costs 50 energy but it stuns for 3 seconds, decrease stun duration to 2 seconds.

Really? I don't think yu know Rev enough then.

Jade Winds has a ridiculous cost to use and it's really only good in teamfights, and instantly negated by a Stunbreak, allowing yu to punish the Rev who has now no Energy to assault or defend with.

Force Engagement is a Projectile that can be LoS'd and unless yur rushing at a Rev with no Stab, this skill does close to nothing, and if yur rushing any enemy without Stab, yur gonna eat CC anyway.

Also, no mention of Call to Anguish, which I expected to appear because even though the Energy cost was increased in PvP, it's still highly spammable for group locking opponents.

Also, never mind the other Professions mentioned, there is no mention of Warrior at all, which right now is by far the worst offender when it comes to stunlocking players, offset only by the fact that they can no longer sustain themselves.But in a teamfight setting, a Warrior can easily lockdown the entire enemy team for over 5 seconds per player, especially when supported by a Firebrand or Scrapper to push their advance.

Also, no mention of Chrono either, which is still pretty good at locking down single players for several seconds.

Also, no mention of Fear Necros either, which not only have many Fears on rotation, they can also corrupt Stability for more fears.

Look, I appreciate the sentiment of starting a thread about state of CC, but if yu wanna make a post like this, please research deeply and thoroughly and not have a bad excuse like "I will give examples of changes for classes that I know enough about, that doesn't means other classes that have too much cc shouldn't be nerfed." to defend yurself against inquiries.

Just because some Professions can lay down the big sad, doesn't mean they are immune to it either, and doesn't mean others can't answer to it either.

Engineer for example, has a decent amount of CC, but an absurd amount of Stability.

Rev for example, may have some problematic CC spam, but utterly helpless against CC themselves, usually being shutdown entirely when being hit by 2 or more CC effects.

Guardians as well, are very vulnerable to CC the moment their Stab is stripped or times out, often being very beefy sacks of meat being ping ponged around due to them not really having many Stunbreaks.

I literally said that those are examples of changes and that there are obviously other classes that need their cc nerfed. But thanks for reminding about demon cc. That one could have cooldown increased. Rev is not problematic in terms of cc apart from renegade daze spam.

@McPero.3287 said:

Cutting down on CC

Since stability has been largely cut down cc should be too because people like to actually play the game not just watch themselves die in a cc chain. I think the best way to fix the cc problem is to decrease amount of cc in the game, increase cooldown of cc abilities. There is also question of daze. Dazes still do damage despite being almost as good as other cc that doesn't do damage. I think dazes should be split into two categories long daze and microdaze. Microdazes should last only 1/4 second and can be used as way to interrupt skills mainly but at the same time still do damage. Long dazes on the other hand should lose the damage they deal. Each weapon should generally have only 1 hard cc (long daze is hard cc, microdaze is not), but it is important to not stick to this rule strictly because that would mean class identity could be endangered.

I will give examples of changes for classes that I know enough about, that doesn't means other classes that have too much cc shouldn't be nerfed.

Elementalist

Dagger main hand:Shocking aura - can effect each player once every 5 seconds (instead of current 2 seconds), exploding aura should still stun even if target was stunned by your shocking aura. This would mean you can get stunned only once by hitting someone that has shocking aura, elementalist still has potential to chain cc you with a followed up explosion of the aura, but others cannot (in you are running aura share). Increase cooldown to 30 seconds. Tempest still has access to triple shocking aura which counters melee engage from enemy team but is not as powerful.Katabatic Wind - should be changed to micro daze that does damage. Increase cooldown to 20 seconds.Mud Slide - only knockdowns when hitting people, walking into mud cripples them instead of knocking them down. Increase cooldown to 25 seconds.

Focus:Gale - this skill should be reworked to either do big damage or give some mobility or combination of both, maybe you can just give it Lighting Leap from lighting hammer with more damage and longer cooldown and no quickness (part of elementalist identity is that I normally does not have quickness boon).Comet - long daze so it should lose damage increase cooldown to 30 or even 35 seconds.

Dagger offhand:Updraft - this skill should be reworked to do damage, maybe keep the evade. Another option is to make it Invoke lighting from Lighting hammer.

Tornado:Tornado 5 opening is a fun skill to use and watch, but it is very stupid when you can chain cc someone for entire duration of tornado. Cooldown was already increased and could be increase further to 120 seconds.Debris tornado - should be changed to a micro daze for people inside the tornado, gets damage back. Cooldown increased to 3 seconds.

Conjure Earth Shield:Magnetic Surge - change it to micro daze so it keeps the damage.

Revenant

This class as a whole is problematic, because of energy and double amount of utility skills it is very hard to play. Only best mechanical players with a lot of practice on this class can show its true (over)power. In the past this class was so overpowered that even not so good players could do well on it. This class has been in competitive meta ever since it was released without any time periods when it wasn't meta as far as I am aware, please correct me if I am wrong. This class would need to be nerfed to a state where it isn't overpowered in competitive anymore which would lead to class being very bad in lower levels of play. I think it would be a shame to dumb down best designed class in the game just so it can be played in lower elo.

Renegade:This spec needs to be reworked but I don't see that happening anytime soon. So here is a quick 'fix' in terms of cc.Darkrazor's Daring - increase interval to 3 seconds and increase cooldown to 25 seconds.

Dwarf:Forced Engagement - increase cooldown to 25 seconds.

Shiro:Jade Winds - yes it costs 50 energy but it stuns for 3 seconds, decrease stun duration to 2 seconds.

Ranger

Pets:Pets in current state are terribly designed, they need to be cleansed like the classes were cleansed on 25th of February, they were clearly forgotten. All the pets should have cc removed unless it is a beast ability. Beast ability cc should follow the same rule of no damage as classes. Power ratios on pets should be adjusted the same way or even more harshly then the classes were (no more bird 4k autoattacks). To compensate for that pets should become more durable (more HP and im talking double) additionally they should cleanse a condition on themselves every 3 seconds because currently ranger has no ability to cleanse his pet can only heal it, maybe this could become a trait in beastmastery to replace one of the passives. Pets should have a shorter range in which they can go away from ranger. A lot of beast abilities could be changed to being utility like smokefield, water field ect.

Greatsword:If pets do get nerfed recent nerfs to GS should be reverted.Counterattack Kick - remove this.

Conclusion

I would like to say that overall purge of powercreep on 25th of February was a success but clearly some things were forgotten about and not thought off when making the changes. I am also aware you are not done making changes and that trait passives are getting replaced with new traits. I think in addition to problem of cc spam there is also far too much weakness which is one of the strongest conditions. Also please stop removing amulets from the PvP I would like to see more of them not less, knights amulet wasn't the problem, prot holo, ranger pets and bunker necro are.

@Cal Cohen.2358

AYAYA

Do people on the forums just have no concept of action and consequence? Really? The solution to too much CC is to just get rid of it? Sigh...

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

Do people on the forums just have no concept of action and consequence? Really? The solution to too much CC is to just get rid of it? Sigh...

Yes, the solution to too much of something is to tone it down, remove some of it, or provide alternatives and drawbacks.

What do you prefer? Special rules such as diminishing returns or maybe arms race balancing such as giving out more stun breaks and stability? None of that has ever led to a healthy PvP game.

@Exedore.6320 said:

@"AliamRationem.5172" said:

Do people on the forums just have no concept of action and consequence? Really? The solution to too much CC is to just get rid of it? Sigh...

I prefer to remove PvP entirely...before the whole game get destroyed with professions made unplayable.....or just separate it from the rest of the game and give everybody there a stick doing 1 dmg and 1m HP..so nobody get "his feelings" wounded by losing in PvP

CC is required in game. This is a game where we should not be mindlessly rushing into fights. Reducing cc would take away the "danger" element from games. If you see a warrior coming in, you must be ready for CCs, it is a defining feature of the class, the same with the rev, ranger, holo or any other class. They all have certain skills that are punishing and it is a good thing having to watch out for those. If no skills are punishing, would the game be more engaging? I don't think it would. Anet already took out the damage from Ccs and because of that for example, the holo's ultimate feels like a big MEH. Earlier we needed to watch out for that . The holosmith had a real presence and IMO that was a good thing. Now its yeah whatever he used his ulti, no big deal. . There are certain class abilities that need to be impactful and I am okay with that. This is a 5V5 game, you are not supposed to face tank everything that is thrown at you.

When people say:

"X is problematic, it needs to be toned down"

What they're really saying is:

"X makes me play differently and adapt my plan of approach. I don't like that. I want to be able to do my thing without regard for what the opponent can do to stop me".

It might be fun to make those big montage plays, but the reality of the situation is that you cannot go full balls to the wall 100% of the time and expect it to work. You will have to play around cooldowns, consider what counterplay options your opponent has, evade the major crowd control setups, factor in teamates or potential +/- situations.

What this means is that you may have to dial back the aggression a bit and utilize your brain. Instead of complaining about CC, ask yourself why you're getting hit by these skills in the first place. Could you really have done nothing better?

@"Tazer.2157" said:CC is required in game. This is a game where we should not be mindlessly rushing into fights. Reducing cc would take away the "danger" element from games. If you see a warrior coming in, you must be ready for CCs, it is a defining feature of the class, the same with the rev, ranger, holo or any other class. They all have certain skills that are punishing and it is a good thing having to watch out for those. If no skills are punishing, would the game be more engaging? I don't think it would. Anet already took out the damage from Ccs and because of that for example, the holo's ultimate feels like a big MEH. Earlier we needed to watch out for that . The holosmith had a real presence and IMO that was a good thing. Now its yeah whatever he used his ulti, no big deal. . There are certain class abilities that need to be impactful and I am okay with that. This is a 5V5 game, you are not supposed to face tank everything that is thrown at you.

Nobody is saying to remove all cc just have less of it because game becomes unplayable when you get chain cced after using your stunbreaks. There being less cc makes cc more valuable and buffs cc skills that lost damage to get back some of the value. No serious player plays old Holo elite everyone uses mortar kit. I agree there should be impactful abilities like Lich Form or Tornado. Tornado 5 into teamfight is very impactful and fun to watch but then spammimg tornado 3 to aoe knock down everyone every second is just stupid. You can stun break it you are knocked down one second later congrats. I don't know what the last sentence has to do with cc but okay I agree.

@"Kuma.1503" said:When people say:

"X is problematic, it needs to be toned down"

What they're really saying is:

"X makes me play differently and adapt my plan of approach. I don't like that. I want to be able to do my thing without regard for what the opponent can do to stop me".

FALSE!

Most complaints like that happen because there is something not fun about it. The presented solution is likely bad, but the reason for the complaint is, more often than not, valid. The problem at the source of the complaint may not be inherently broken, or it may only apply at certain skill tiers, but it shouldn't be met with blanket dismissal as "L2P".

And not all problems need buffs or nerfs. The solution may be as mundane as adding a more obvious animation.

@Exedore.6320 said:

@"Kuma.1503" said:When people say:

"X is problematic, it needs to be toned down"

What they're really saying is:

"X makes me play differently and adapt my plan of approach. I don't like that. I want to be able to do my thing without regard for what the opponent can do to stop me".

When in the heat of battle, people will neglect to do these things, because, to them it feels like a chore. They get hit by the skill, complain that it is op, zero counterplay, powercrept, ect. then come to the forums to complain about it.

Most skills listed here have obvious animations. Comet launches a very obvious comet into the air, literally signal flaring for you to dodge. Gale has a standard 3/4 second cast time. Mudslide leaves mud on the ground which you should not be walking into in the first place. If the ele misses the skill and someone walks into it and get knocked down, that is not the skills fault. That person was most likely tunnel visioning and not paying attention.

I will concede on Call to Anguish needing a bigger telegraph though. A growing red circle on the ground at their destination would go a long way.

CC is clearly out of hand. To all of those who say "just adapt, get around it", there are literally only 3 ways:

• Dwarf/Kalla renegade bunker, has 50%-ish stability uptime (pulsing) and insane sustain. Sometimes you can drop Jalis, sometimes you need it, just watch the EU monthly finals...
• Longbow ranger/deadeye, good luck CC-ing someone 1500 away
• Becoming part of the problem, playing a CC-bomber (LR weaver, meme core engineer etc.), and CC them before they CC you

So there are options sure, but do we really want the meta to change that way? Lately I came to the conclusion that renegade shouldn't even be viable in PvP at all, yet stacking renegades seems to be the best counter to the current CC heavy comps. If we don't cut back on the CC, get ready for the meta to devolve into the worst thing we had since HoT release.

Anyway I'm off to learn the Kalla bunker build. See you in ranked, hope you like visual cancer!

@"Bazsi.2734" said:CC is clearly out of hand. To all of those who say "just adapt, get around it", there are literally only 3 ways:

• Dwarf/Kalla renegade bunker, has 50%-ish stability uptime (pulsing) and insane sustain. Sometimes you can drop Jalis, sometimes you need it, just watch the EU monthly finals...
• Longbow ranger/deadeye, good luck CC-ing someone 1500 away
• Becoming part of the problem, playing a CC-bomber (LR weaver, meme core engineer etc.), and CC them before they CC you

So there are options sure, but do we really want the meta to change that way? Lately I came to the conclusion that renegade shouldn't even be viable in PvP at all, yet stacking renegades seems to be the best counter to the current CC heavy comps. If we don't cut back on the CC, get ready for the meta to devolve into the worst thing we had since HoT release.

Anyway I'm off to learn the Kalla bunker build. See you in ranked, hope you like visual cancer!

If you're going to play Kalla Ren, you should give a damage oriented build a shot. It's less about spamming visual cancer on node, and more about using your CC to line up your Icerazer > Citadel bombardment > Spiritcrush burst. Grab a support with good CC that can set you up, and watch entire teams melt.

You should watch your damage as you play it. If the opposing team is playing something bunkery like symbrolbrand + bunker necro it's not uncommon to end up doing 200k+ damage in the first few seconds of a teamfight.

@Kuma.1503 said:

@Exedore.6320 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:When people say:

"X is problematic, it needs to be toned down"

What they're really saying is:

"X makes me play differently and adapt my plan of approach. I don't like that. I want to be able to do my thing without regard for what the opponent can do to stop me".

You look into the air above yourself when playing to see comet that spawns exactly at the top of you? I get that you see cast animation but saying you see the comet itself is pure bullpoop.Clearly power of mudslide mud effect isn't in people walking into it but the zoning potential it gives.Yes you can evade, block, blind ect the obvious cc animations but how exactly are you going to avoid being cc by a Gale while you are already stunned and don't have a stunbreak up. Stunbreaks and stability got nerfed so you have less access to it, there is less vigor uptime which means less dodges and so on, yet amount of cc stayed the same.

@McPero.3287 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:

@Exedore.6320 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:When people say:

"X is problematic, it needs to be toned down"

What they're really saying is:

"X makes me play differently and adapt my plan of approach. I don't like that. I want to be able to do my thing without regard for what the opponent can do to stop me".

You can see comet's animation easily by looking at the opponent. It's a blue ball that flies up into the air. It's very easy to spot.

I suggest playing ele for a bit so you can see the animation for yourself. Once you know what to look for, you won't miss it.As far as mudslide goes, walk around it. Its not a very big field. You're greatly exaggerating it's effectiveness as a zoning tool.

This thread just shows that Anet over-nerfed stab across the board. CC's have been complained about since Feb Patch. The Solution to CC's isn't removing it from the game. That's very unlikely given the boundaries of what a PvP Dev can do.

The solution is to reintroduce stab, very slightly, but effectively until CC'ing an enemy to death isn't the main objective of PvP. So much of the game-mode is about checks and balances. Condi has cleanses, power damage has weakness and protection, burst attacks are countered by evades and invuln. CC's are countered by stab. It's very simple.

was hoping for calls for warrior nerfs

disappointing...

@Kuma.1503 said:

@Exedore.6320 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:When people say:

"X is problematic, it needs to be toned down"

What they're really saying is:

"X makes me play differently and adapt my plan of approach. I don't like that. I want to be able to do my thing without regard for what the opponent can do to stop me".

You what mate? Gale being 3/4 sec with no giant animation is fast. Call to Anguish needs a bigger telegraph when the Revenant literally leaps into the air over everyone? What??? CtA is busted but NOT because it isn't obvious, meanwhile Gale knocks you down for 3 seconds and is unblockable and hard to see.

@Drennon.7190 said:No. Most CC is obvious animations/tells. Dodge it, pop stab, use aegis, use blocks, use blinds, etc.

This forum is obsessed with turning this mode into a bunker v bunker face tanking a node without ever using a dodge or their brain.

Lols. L2dodge argument never gets old, ehh? It is becoming a parity that render any Discussion useless. even in small scale fights there is way more CC than you could possibly avoid. The game has now defaulted into CC meta. Actually, since nothing does any damage now, CC chaining is the name of the game to kill anyone. In team fights prepare to get frozen. I guess it is Ice Brood Saga, even in sPvP...

See, even if we theoretically assume the game is now somewhat working as intended, there are major issues in design. You are right that if we limit CC, as balance currently stand, spvp will be total bunker mode. However, if sPvP is primarily balanced around CC chaining and avoidance, it is not worth playing. It is not remotely fun, and honestly, nor balanced.

With the latest big patch Arenanet ensured CC to be even more disgustingly atrocious than it already was before.That should be proof enough that Arenanet has not a single shred of intention to cut down on CC.

@Kuma.1503 said:

@McPero.3287 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:

@Exedore.6320 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:When people say:

"X is problematic, it needs to be toned down"

What they're really saying is:

"X makes me play differently and adapt my plan of approach. I don't like that. I want to be able to do my thing without regard for what the opponent can do to stop me".

Please work on your reading comprehension skills before engaging in discussions.

@Sailorz.5426 said:was hoping for calls for warrior nerfs

disappointing...

Actually warrior cc should get nerfed as well but as I said these are examples for classes I played enough to know all abilities. But this thread is only about cc I think warrior needs different buffs.

"Nerf Holo Anet. It literally runs at you and between Corona Burst and Elixir U you literally don't have a chance to interact"

Anet: I gotchu fam. Elixir U now gives 1 second of stab, and Corona burst only grants barrier

"Nerf Ele Anet. It has much too high stab access alongside perma evades"

Anet: On that too

"Nerf Guard Anet. Constant heals while pulsing out stab to allies and making them immortal"

Anet: One great boon purging coming right up

-Many nerfs later-

"Wtf where did all the stab go. CC op. Anet is so dum, can't balance gaem"

There's such a misconception of CC in guildwars 2. These people who complain that there is too much probably never played a class that relies on cc in gw2. Imagine needing to land an ability on a 20+ sec cd that can be nulled by, stab, blind, aegis, cc break, dodge, invul.

I get stuns make people salty. but it's just sad. If the cc aspect of warrior gets nuked from orbit because "cc bad mmkkayy" there will no longer be a class that has a playstyle I like.