Competitive Mindset

I wanted to talk about having a competitive mindset when it comes to Ranked PvP. The whole objective of Ranked is to win, plain and simple. We use the best builds and classes to gain the biggest advantage over the opposing team.Now a bit of context, I play Theif. Predominantly D/P Daredevil but recently made the switch to condi Thief because it is insanely powerful (I agree it needs nerfed by that's another topic). Here is the problem, the amount hate I get is incredible. Getting called "trash" for using a "cheap" build plus much more. This kind of mindset hinders those kinds of players massively.

A competitive mindset should look at what your opponents are using and reroll to counter. Here is an example... As I stated above I've been running condi Thief but, if my team is kind of squishy and has maybe a Mesmer or another Thief I will reroll to my Revenant. This gives me a better chance of winning.I do not blame players for using "broken" or top tier builds. It is in the game so why wouldn't you use it?

Now, I know what's coming, "I shouldn't have to learn other classes and reroll to counter 1 build" and you are wrong. Yes, condi Thief is very strong right now but there are counters out there, like communicating with your team to focus the Thief everytime you see them!

In summary, we can highlight overly powerful builds here on the forums for devs to get feedback and make changes but players need to change their mindset in ga e when it comes to meta builds and make a change to how they play in order to win.

I'd like to know the communities thoughts on their mindset when playing Ranked PvP

Counter argument if you bandwagon to the freshest cheese you deserve to be called out. Getting carried by the build and not by skill is pissing off people, usually people have seen it time and time again and the bandwagoner turns to dead weight when the build gets nerfed. Cheese builds force people to play to their tune and removes variety.Lets say there is E-sport and everyone is cheesing to win but it is boring to play and boring to watch and it fails miserably and the mode gets trashed and not supported.So people leave, other enjoy cheesing to win so much that we get cheese fests, but even more people start leaving cause this place is too cheesy and boring and we go in a spiral with less and less people playing.

Counter-counter argument, by not laying the "best" build available you are actively hurting your teams chances of success. It would be nice if there was more diversity, but playing sub-par builds to try and force this diversity is a bad thing for your team. As for being called out for a build, oh noes, please...stop...

Counter-counter-counter argument,there is a difference between cheese and best build for the situation, playing broken shit put us in the place we are now, that is why we get ded gam memes. Continue to play with your training wheels till everyone stops playing the game all together.

@Vancho.8750 said:Counter argument if you bandwagon to the freshest cheese you deserve to be called out. Getting carried by the build and not by skill is pissing off people, usually people have seen it time and time again and the bandwagoner turns to dead weight when the build gets nerfed. Cheese builds force people to play to their tune and removes variety.Lets say there is E-sport and everyone is cheesing to win but it is boring to play and boring to watch and it fails miserably and the mode gets trashed and not supported.So people leave, other enjoy cheesing to win so much that we get cheese fests, but even more people start leaving cause this place is too cheesy and boring and we go in a spiral with less and less people playing.

Being able to play more than one class is the way to the top.....playing a single class only lead to personal bias

Let Anet judge wether or not something is "broken" or cheese. They are afterall the only ones with the power to change it. At best the community can provide feedback to Anet.Players that complain about builds/cheese ingame tend to only be when opponent is using it. I have yet to be in a game where teammates "call out" cheese on their teammates, unless they are losing. Making me believe they dont actually care about OP builds. In fact I tend to see more players calling out teammates for using non-meta builds.Giving yourself the handicap of playing non-meta, just so you can claim yourself superior. is a scrub argument.

Imagine thinking GW2 is competitive

@"Markri.9475" said:Let Anet judge wether or not something is "broken" or cheese. They are afterall the only ones with the power to change it. At best the community can provide feedback to Anet.Players that complain about builds/cheese ingame tend to only be when opponent is using it. I have yet to be in a game where teammates "call out" cheese on their teammates, unless they are losing. Making me believe they dont actually care about OP builds. In fact I tend to see more players calling out teammates for using non-meta builds.Giving yourself the handicap of playing non-meta, just so you can claim yourself superior. is a scrub argument.Lets all be degenerates, or don't play at all cause the game went to the shitter again. Guess what people chose more often.

I swore to myself to never ever play anything but Necro in PvP since early HoT tho

I have stayed true to it ever since. I will play Necro and nothing but Necro regardless of the state of Necro or whether the enemy comp hard counters me.

@"Vancho.8750" said:Counter argument if you bandwagon to the freshest cheese you deserve to be called out. Getting carried by the build and not by skill is pissing off people, usually people have seen it time and time again and the bandwagoner turns to dead weight when the build gets nerfed. Cheese builds force people to play to their tune and removes variety.Lets say there is E-sport and everyone is cheesing to win but it is boring to play and boring to watch and it fails miserably and the mode gets trashed and not supported.So people leave, other enjoy cheesing to win so much that we get cheese fests, but even more people start leaving cause this place is too cheesy and boring and we go in a spiral with less and less people playing.

I think your missing the point. I agree, "cheese" builds are horrible to play against and I'd much rather play my D/P Daredevil but in a Ranked match the objective is to win and I will play the best builds to help me do that. I will not alter my playstyle to give someone else a better chance of winning. This isn't an argument on what classes as "competitive" and should and shouldn't be allowed in Ranked.

It is the developers job to balance such builds and change the meta. Its not down to the players.

@"Broady.2358" said:I wanted to talk about having a competitive mindset when it comes to Ranked PvP. The whole objective of Ranked is to win, plain and simple. We use the best builds and classes to gain the biggest advantage over the opposing team.Now a bit of context, I play Theif. Predominantly D/P Daredevil but recently made the switch to condi Thief because it is insanely powerful (I agree it needs nerfed by that's another topic). Here is the problem, the amount hate I get is incredible. Getting called "trash" for using a "cheap" build plus much more. This kind of mindset hinders those kinds of players massively.

A competitive mindset should look at what your opponents are using and reroll to counter. Here is an example... As I stated above I've been running condi Thief but, if my team is kind of squishy and has maybe a Mesmer or another Thief I will reroll to my Revenant. This gives me a better chance of winning.I do not blame players for using "broken" or top tier builds. It is in the game so why wouldn't you use it?

Now, I know what's coming, "I shouldn't have to learn other classes and reroll to counter 1 build" and you are wrong. Yes, condi Thief is very strong right now but there are counters out there, like communicating with your team to focus the Thief everytime you see them!

In summary, we can highlight overly powerful builds here on the forums for devs to get feedback and make changes but players need to change their mindset in ga e when it comes to meta builds and make a change to how they play in order to win.

I'd like to know the communities thoughts on their mindset when playing Ranked PvP

Certainly, that's one way of defining a "competitive mindset". However, when you place all of the importance on winning, there is a chance you forget about actually competing!

@Broady.2358 said:

@"Vancho.8750" said:Counter argument if you bandwagon to the freshest cheese you deserve to be called out. Getting carried by the build and not by skill is pissing off people, usually people have seen it time and time again and the bandwagoner turns to dead weight when the build gets nerfed. Cheese builds force people to play to their tune and removes variety.Lets say there is E-sport and everyone is cheesing to win but it is boring to play and boring to watch and it fails miserably and the mode gets trashed and not supported.So people leave, other enjoy cheesing to win so much that we get cheese fests, but even more people start leaving cause this place is too cheesy and boring and we go in a spiral with less and less people playing.

Just because a build has counters doesnt mean its good for the game. There have been a lot of meta and non-meta builds that have no place in a competitive game, largely due to toxic gameplay mechanics and poor design.

Take a look at spellbreaker for example. People rarely complained about anything other than tether-rampage when SPB was a top meta pick, because the class is well designed and feels fair to fight. On the other hand condi thief builds have usually relied on horribly toxic mechanics, like constant teleporting, applying condis while evading, stealth, immob spamming, and so on. It doesnt matter how effective the build is in the meta, its all about how it feels to fight it. Most people play games to have fun, winning just happens to be a strong factor in that.

Nothing is stopping you from playing the FOTM, but don't complain if someone is calling you names for it.It takes time to patch OP stuff, some would say it takes too much time for obvious things to be changed.Also like @AliamRationem.5172 pointed out is it really satisfying to win by any means or is it better to win by ones merit.

Personally I get my enjoyment from winning, full stop. I think it's kind of childish to be toxic towards other players using powerful builds. I agree that certain builds need looked at and nerfed but as I stated originally the whole point of ranked is to win, thats it.Lets look at something different, say sports. Would a team say "oh we aren't going to play out best players because its cheesey"? The answer is no.

Someone correctly stated above that people are happy to have "cheese" builds on their team but only get angry when they're against them. Makes no sense.

I'm basically saying we should actively try to counter such builds or just fight fire with fire and not flame those for using the builds.

@"Broady.2358" said:Personally I get my enjoyment from winning, full stop. I think it's kind of childish to be toxic towards other players using powerful builds. I agree that certain builds need looked at and nerfed but as I stated originally the whole point of ranked is to win, thats it.Lets look at something different, say sports. Would a team say "oh we aren't going to play out best players because its cheesey"? The answer is no.

I'm gonna watch this debate from the sidelines, but keep in mind most sports and tournament organizers have specific rules in place to prevent people from winning by any means. The fact that some people get their kicks from "winning, full stop" isn't by itself an issue, but issues tend to arise when they find themselves unsuccessful within what allows the opponent time to reasonably react or counter them.

A team would not say "Oh we won't play because its cheesy" but they might say:

"Oh we won't play because the opponent deflates the ball or dopes and nobody has said anything to them yet."

or

"Oh we won't play because there's a 50/50 chance we get a preschooler drafted onto our team."

@Broady.2358 said:

@"Vancho.8750" said:Counter argument if you bandwagon to the freshest cheese you deserve to be called out. Getting carried by the build and not by skill is pissing off people, usually people have seen it time and time again and the bandwagoner turns to dead weight when the build gets nerfed. Cheese builds force people to play to their tune and removes variety.Lets say there is E-sport and everyone is cheesing to win but it is boring to play and boring to watch and it fails miserably and the mode gets trashed and not supported.So people leave, other enjoy cheesing to win so much that we get cheese fests, but even more people start leaving cause this place is too cheesy and boring and we go in a spiral with less and less people playing.

By your logic it should be encouraged for players to use third party programs to cheat their way to a win, because it's the developers job to ensure such programs cannot be used, and thus the players cannot be held responsible. While the means to an easy win might be available to the player, they have no obligation to pick it, and if one player is abusing a loophole to win rather than doing it fair and square, they should absolutely be shunned for it.

It's also nice to remember that while it's true that the point of a competitive mode is to win, the point of a game is still first and foremost to have fun. If winning and having fun are mutually exclusive, the mode is broken.

Salty or not it is entirely appropriate to use whatever gives you the greatest edge against your opponent. Do I hate getting farmed by condi thief or any other build that is very strong? Definitely. But even if I rage about it being "brainded ez monkey FB* I still don't blame the person for using it. It wouldn't make any sense to run something that isn't as effective. I get where you are coming from : ) Trying to figure out a way to counter it is a more valuable way to spend your energy

I think my overall point has been mistaken, which is probably my fault for not explaining it well enough.

I agree that outlying builds like condi Thief need looked and and adjusted quickly but those using the build which is in the game, cannot be blamed. I am just talking about the mindset when it comes to tackling these builds in a competitive environment. Instead of just complaining in game and being abusive to players using such a build that is literally in the game, using no hacks or anything doesn't accomplish anything. If anything it drives players away.

Please don't misunderstand my intentions. I want PvP to be enjoyable by all players and have a balanced environment but some elements are out of our control and down to the developers to balance. I often play other classes I am not confident with in Unranked for fun where there aren't any stakes on the line but for Ranked, I play to win.

So, how do top players deal with "overpowered" or "cheesy" builds? Because at the end of the day, if your goal is to win (which I imagine it is if you're in ranked) wouldn't giving yourself the best chance of winning be the logical choice?

Thanks all for talking about this, I enjoy the back and forth :)

@"Broady.2358" said:I think my overall point has been mistaken, which is probably my fault for not explaining it well enough.

I agree that outlying builds like condi Thief need looked and and adjusted quickly but those using the build which is in the game, cannot be blamed. I am just talking about the mindset when it comes to tackling these builds in a competitive environment. Instead of just complaining in game and being abusive to players using such a build that is literally in the game, using no hacks or anything doesn't accomplish anything. If anything it drives players away.

Please don't misunderstand my intentions. I want PvP to be enjoyable by all players and have a balanced environment but some elements are out of our control and down to the developers to balance. I often play other classes I am not confident with in Unranked for fun where there aren't any stakes on the line but for Ranked, I play to win.

So, how do top players deal with "overpowered" or "cheesy" builds? Because at the end of the day, if your goal is to win (which I imagine it is if you're in ranked) wouldn't giving yourself the best chance of winning be the logical choice?

Thanks all for talking about this, I enjoy the back and forth :)

In that case, I think a lot of people at higher ranks dont care about leaderboard positions at all, and are happy to sit in plat. There are a lot of veteran players who have found the playstyle they enjoy, and are reluctant to swap builds or classes just to counter some new gimmick. And if a build is specialized enough, it might not be possible to adapt it to a big shift in the meta or some cheesy class rework.

@Broady.2358 said:

Please don't misunderstand my intentions. I want PvP to be enjoyable by all players and have a balanced environment

I want PvP to be enjoyable so I play condi thief. 10/10 meme

In that case, I think a lot of people at higher ranks dont care about leaderboard positions at all, and are happy to sit in plat. There are a lot of veteran players who have found the playstyle they enjoy, and are reluctant to swap builds or classes just to counter some new gimmick. And if a build is specialized enough, it might not be possible to adapt it to a big shift in the meta or some cheesy class rework.

Not sure what you're getting at here but if those players who have found a playstyle they like and are reluctant to swap builds or classes then they cannot complain about players running meta builds.I'm hoping to talk about a change of mindset in Ranked PvP when dealing with top tier builds and actively working to counter them instead of complaining about the players using assets available to them.

@"Broady.2358" said:

I agree that outlying builds like condi Thief need looked and and adjusted quickly but those using the build which is in the game, cannot be blamed. I am just talking about the mindset when it comes to tackling these builds in a competitive environment. Instead of just complaining in game and being abusive to players using such a build that is literally in the game, using no hacks or anything doesn't accomplish anything. If anything it drives players away.

Like I said nobody is forcing them to play that build, they're doing it cuz they want to, and cuz they know it is overpowered. Just because some loophole is in the game and the developers didn't immediately fix it, doesn't mean it's ok to abuse it, in fact many developers retroactively punish players for doing similar things in other games. If you're worried about the attitude driving players away, you should know that the free abuse of such builds also drives players away, and in much higher numbers. When faced between choosing to use a build they don't want to use and won't have fun with just to counter some flavour of the month outlier, and just not playing at all, more often than not one would pick just not playing.

At the end of the day, you're making the game unenjoyable for other people just to get your "I win" fix (which I'm not even sure how you're getting it since it's not by merit), and you can't blame people for not wanting to play with you, or shunning you when they're forced to play with you. Obviously, the developers make the game and it's up to them to deny such outliers, but the community is also partially responsible to take it upon themselves to make the game more enjoyable for themselves and others, instead of constantly looking for loopholes to abuse.

@Broady.2358 is correct in that playing to win means using cheesy builds sometimes. However, if you choose that path, expect to be called out for it.

What I consider a "cheesy" build is something with a low skill floor which is low risk and high reward, or something which involves a gimmick to kill fast which only works the first time you encounter it because it's not expected.

Using a build like that can elevate someone above their skill level compared to a build with a better risk-reward balance. That's why it frustrates people: they can plan better and be better skilled mechanically, but in order to win or stalemate, they have to put in far more effort.

My competetive mindset:

Builds don't carry players. Players carry players. If you won using the best build avaliable to you, as far as results are concerend, you won fair and square. You made optimal use out of your resources, and you played the build to a competent enough level to earn your team the win. This is the nature of competitive games.

Don't want to play the best builds in the game, but still want to rank up?

You have two options avaliable to you.

Option 1. Completely halt any hope for progress or improvement you might have by blaming any loss on the opponents build. Their build was better than yours. You did nothing wrong, and you would have won if only their build was a little bit weaker. Perhaps you're not that deluded, you admit you made some mistakes but you think you played "Well enough"

Correct or not, this mindset will not help you improve. You'll take nothing away from that loss, save for slightly higher blood pressure, and in extreme cases, a broken keyboard. Don't shoot for "good enough" Aim to play the best you possibly can. Be honest with yourself and ask yourself what you could have done better. Don't know? That's fine. Do some research or ask members of the community who know the ins and outs of PvP.

Option 2. Realize that you are not playing at the highest tier of play. A mediocre build can easily trump a broken build utilizing good fundamentals. Perhaps their build simply outshines you in the 1v1. But you know how to play around cooldowns, you know which skills to dodge, when to dodge, how to kite when situations turn disadvantagous, how to rotate and so on.

You know the ins and outs of the game, and because of that, while that guy playing his broken build rotates into a 1v3 mid and dies, you're playing smart and decaping far for your team.

Once you reach the highest tiers of play, meta builds will begin to shine by virtue of being meta. Players will make fewer mistakes, and you'll have fewer opportunities to beat them using superior skill and game knowledge. Odds are, they know just as much as you. If you want to be the best of the best, you must build like the best of the best.

If that doesn't satisfy you, then, by all means, walk the path of the Off-meta hero. Learn your weaker build inside and out and learn how to push it to it's absolute limits. You'll have to work harder than everyone else, but that's where the glory lies. Understand what you're getting youself into so that you have no one to blame but yourself when things go wrong.

Best of luck.

@"Kuma.1503" said:My competetive mindset:

Builds don't carry players. Players carry players. If you won using the best build avaliable to you, as far as results are concerend, you won fair and square. You made optimal use out of your resources, and you played the build to a competent enough level to earn your team the win. This is the nature of competitive games.

Don't want to play the best builds in the game, but still want to rank up?

You have two options avaliable to you.

Option 1. Completely halt any hope for progress or improvement you might have by blaming any loss on the opponents build. Their build was better than yours. You did nothing wrong, and you would have won if only their build was a little bit weaker. Perhaps you're not that deluded, you admit you made some mistakes but you think you played "Well enough"

Correct or not, this mindset will not help you improve. You'll take nothing away from that loss, save for slightly higher blood pressure, and in extreme cases, a broken keyboard. Don't shoot for "good enough" Aim to play the best you possibly can. Be honest with yourself and ask yourself what you could have done better. Don't know? That's fine. Do some research or ask members of the community who know the ins and outs of PvP.

Option 2. Realize that you are not playing at the highest tier of play. A mediocre build can easily trump a broken build utilizing good fundamentals. Perhaps their build simply outshines you in the 1v1. But you know how to play around cooldowns, you know which skills to dodge, when to dodge, how to kite when situations turn disadvantagous, how to rotate and so on.

You know the ins and outs of the game, and because of that, while that guy playing his broken build rotates into a 1v3 mid and dies, you're playing smart and decaping far for your team.

Once you reach the highest tiers of play, meta builds will begin to shine by virtue of being meta. Players will make fewer mistakes, and you'll have fewer opportunities to beat them using superior skill and game knowledge. Odds are, they know just as much as you. If you want to be the best of the best, you must build like the best of the best.

If that doesn't satisfy you, then, by all means, walk the path of the Off-meta hero. Learn your weaker build inside and out and learn how to push it to it's absolute limits. You'll have to work harder than everyone else, but that's where the glory lies. Understand what you're getting youself into so that you have no one to blame but yourself when things go wrong.Best of luck.

This sums up the point I am making perfectly! Thankyou for wording it much better than myself.