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Time to bring down the Nerf hammer on guardian

Tyse the Black.6789Tyse the Black.6789 Member ✭✭
edited May 3, 2020 in Guardian

Guardian (core, dragonhunter and firebrand) has been meta defining for too long. Most automated tournament teams have 2-3 guardians and guardian is why the super boring WvW pirateship meta works so well. Too much aegis spam (sometimes without having a to even press anything) is a common theme in all 3 iterations and too much block chain when considered alongside the highly mobile burst potential (of both power and Condi). The arguments for guardian being so OP for a long time have been so that it checks a bunch of different builds, most of which have now been culled. It's guardians turn

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Comments

  • @Drennon.7190 said:
    What tournaments are you watching? EU basically doesn’t touch guardian in competitive play anymore. NA teams run at most, 1 symbol brand on a team.

    I don't watch I play and every AT I've played for the past 2-3 weeks ish has had this

  • @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    I fail to see you arguing about them so it's going lead me to believe your argument more based on personal bias than a real issue with the class."

    This is a bad assumption. This is the guardian forum why would I call for nerfs to other professions here? I agree that the other professions you list- and while we're at it, ranger, also need to be clawed back. The issues, like I said are a lot more than just boonshare. Invuln/block chains, getting aegis without having to do anything with no trade-off on their burst potential in some cases.

    To pick on your point about things that have 10 boonshare... I don't mind 10-man boonshare in theory as long as it isn't excessive and involves tradeoffs to take it. No one should have 10 man stab, aegis, resistance and other boons like protection, might and fury that apply to 10 should be shorter unless people really invest in boon duration. People run in comms in WvW most of the time anyways- call when you're giving boons so your team can time their burst but if they're slow or blew their CDs then RIP their burst window.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Stand You Ground is powerful indeed, but Tomes are more of the problem. They are too powerful and need BIG nerfs. Justice Passive is very strong, particularly in a game mode were people ball up nice and tight for you in order to avoid some AoE. Permeating Wrath + Sword of Justice and a symbol or two nukes a zerg. It nukes siege. I had to step away from my Burn DH. It was so strong that it was too boring to play, ZERO skill involved.

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 5, 2020

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    Stand You Ground is powerful indeed, but Tomes are more of the problem. They are too powerful and need BIG nerfs. Justice Passive is very strong, particularly in a game mode were people ball up nice and tight for you in order to avoid some AoE. Permeating Wrath + Sword of Justice and a symbol or two nukes a zerg. It nukes siege. I had to step away from my Burn DH. It was so strong that it was too boring to play, ZERO skill involved.

    The burn issue your complaining about doesn’t really have to do with Tomes though. Burn oriented FBs are fairly balanced. Also, it’s mostly just Core.

    To OP, if you haven’t noticed yet, most of the past few updates have nerfed Guardians quite a bit, especially FBs.

    However, I do agree there should be something done about Stability on Courage Tome 1. I know Skill 1 had been nerfed in duration already, but I still feel like it should be removed altogether and replaced with bleed. This gives the FB an alternate condition source instead of just burn, yet nerfs the stab spam that many people feel is a problem.

    “Be like water”-Bruce Lee

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    Stand You Ground is powerful indeed, but Tomes are more of the problem. They are too powerful and need BIG nerfs. Justice Passive is very strong, particularly in a game mode were people ball up nice and tight for you in order to avoid some AoE. Permeating Wrath + Sword of Justice and a symbol or two nukes a zerg. It nukes siege. I had to step away from my Burn DH. It was so strong that it was too boring to play, ZERO skill involved.

    The burn issue your complaining about doesn’t really have to do with Tomes though. Burn oriented FBs are fairly balanced. Also, it’s mostly just Core.

    To OP, if you haven’t noticed yet, most of the past few updates have nerfed Guardians quite a bit, especially FBs.

    However, I do agree there should be something done about Stability on Courage Tome 1. I know Skill 1 had been nerfed in duration already, but I still feel like it should be removed altogether and replaced with bleed. This gives the FB an alternate condition source instead of just burn, yet nerfs the stab spam that many people feel is a problem.

    They were separate pieces of commentary, my bad if that wasn't clear.

  • frareanselm.1925frareanselm.1925 Member ✭✭✭

    Burn guardian deal more damage than a pyromancer. Burn guardian with the flamethrower kit does more damage than a engi-flamethrower. This needs to stop!

  • Josiah.2967Josiah.2967 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 9, 2020

    Edit: Since the usual trolls have come out. Let me explain in detail what I want. I mostly play endgame PVE (Raids/Strikes/Fractals).

    The DPS spread is bigger than ever. It keeps getting bigger each patch. The ideal meta shakeup would be balance. That being said, nerfing the tier 1 specs (which have been on top for years now), and buffing professions on the bottom would be a good start. True balance would be a meta shakeup. I would like to play something different that is competitive for a change. I would like variety.

    Original Message:

    We need a meta shakeup to make this game fun again! I fully support this. I am sick of feeling the need to play Guardian in group content because of the advantage it brings over everything else.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    We need a meta shakeup to make this game fun again! I fully support this. I am sick of feeling the need to play Guardian in group content because of the advantage it brings over everything else.

    A shake up for the sake of a shake up is a terrible idea.
    I don't want balance patch WoW-like where things are made better or worse just to shift things around.

  • Josiah.2967Josiah.2967 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 9, 2020

    Edit: Since the usual trolls have come out. Let me explain in detail what I want. I mostly play endgame PVE (Raids/Strikes/Fractals).

    The DPS spread is bigger than ever. It keeps getting bigger each patch. The ideal meta shakeup would be balance. That being said, nerfing the tier 1 specs (which have been on top for years now), and buffing professions on the bottom would be a good start. True balance would be a meta shakeup. I would like to play something different that is competitive for a change. I would like variety.

    I want the TOP DPS nerfed.

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    We need a meta shakeup to make this game fun again! I fully support this. I am sick of feeling the need to play Guardian in group content because of the advantage it brings over everything else.

    A shake up for the sake of a shake up is a terrible idea.
    I don't want balance patch WoW-like where things are made better or worse just to shift things around.

    We really need it. It will bring life back to this game. Keeping the same professions Tier 1 just for consistency is not my idea of fun.

  • RUNICBLACK.7630RUNICBLACK.7630 Member ✭✭✭

    @frareanselm.1925 said:
    Burn guardian deal more damage than a pyromancer. Burn guardian with the flamethrower kit does more damage than a engi-flamethrower. This needs to stop!

    Ok I'll bite can you honestly show me builds on the gw2skills.net where this is true , I'd like to see this myself , I could be wrong but to me it feels like your biased on this . Just to keep it simple wipe out the gear or if you feel that doesn't do it justice please be honest on the builds (another words no insane glass cannon build compared to a build with a solid sustain and claiming they are the same please, if one sacrifices sustain for damage all of them should etc..) I'm willing to listen but without something verifiable it just sounds like a "I hate guardian rant".

    Life before Death
    Strength before Weakness
    Journey before Destination
    stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Words

  • RUNICBLACK.7630RUNICBLACK.7630 Member ✭✭✭

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    We need a meta shakeup to make this game fun again! I fully support this. I am sick of feeling the need to play Guardian in group content because of the advantage it brings over everything else.

    If your talking about Raids or Fractals I get where your coming from , that was the same complaint that was voiced by the Mesmer/Chrono community when Alacrity was only available from the Chrono and you know what happened they made available to the Rev/Renegade and everyone in the Mesmer community blew their stack go figure.
    While I'm for thoughtful play balance(which could be argued that they have had mixed success on that but that"s an argument for another time) change just for changes sake is pretty much utterly detrimental to the game as a whole. If your talking about any other part the game the "GROUP" play such as Fractals, or Strike Missions isn't that closed off or exclusive enough to warrant that kind of change, don't like the group restriction in LFG for the Fractal or Strike mission POST your own and I'm sure people will join because they are annoyed with the "You have Run THIS THIS WAY OR YOUR OUT" attitude as much as you are. Really its not that big a deal I've done it quite often myself for that very reason. Heck had a team whine about my DPS because the team kept wiping (over 4 times and I was rezzing the majority the team) so they kicked me joined another team without the attitude and finished on the first attempt without a single down , go figure. I play for my enjoyment not to support someone else's ego

    Life before Death
    Strength before Weakness
    Journey before Destination
    stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Words

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    We need a meta shakeup to make this game fun again! I fully support this. I am sick of feeling the need to play Guardian in group content because of the advantage it brings over everything else.

    A shake up for the sake of a shake up is a terrible idea.
    I don't want balance patch WoW-like where things are made better or worse just to shift things around.

    We really need it. I till bring life to this game. Keeping the same professions Tier 1 just for consistency is terrible.

    Based on what you say, you would be perfectly happy if ANet added that on each weekly reset, 2 classes are randomly picked to receives a 1 week long PvP buff that give them +50% Damage -20% Incoming Damage. So each week, Tiers 1 class would be "shaken up".

    The delay at which the chosen classes are picked and the effect of the buff may vary, but on the principle, would you be satisfied by that ?
    That's basically what you advocates for, without messing with PvE and WvW balance.

  • Josiah.2967Josiah.2967 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    We need a meta shakeup to make this game fun again! I fully support this. I am sick of feeling the need to play Guardian in group content because of the advantage it brings over everything else.

    A shake up for the sake of a shake up is a terrible idea.
    I don't want balance patch WoW-like where things are made better or worse just to shift things around.

    We really need it. I till bring life to this game. Keeping the same professions Tier 1 just for consistency is terrible.

    Based on what you say, you would be perfectly happy if ANet added that on each weekly reset, 2 classes are randomly picked to receives a 1 week long PvP buff that give them +50% Damage -20% Incoming Damage. So each week, Tiers 1 class would be "shaken up".

    The delay at which the chosen classes are picked and the effect of the buff may vary, but on the principle, would you be satisfied by that ?
    That's basically what you advocates for, without messing with PvE and WvW balance.

    Slow clap. I have be trolled.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @frareanselm.1925 said:
    Burn guardian deal more damage than a pyromancer. Burn guardian with the flamethrower kit does more damage than a engi-flamethrower. This needs to stop!

    Guardian is a burn specialist; burns were until FB their only relevant condition in terms of damage (and still the bleeds in the FB can't compete with their burns), whereas both Eles and Engies can apply aditional condition damage from bleeds, poison... And FB works more like a hybrid class in terms of damage, even in PvE.

  • Arken.3725Arken.3725 Member ✭✭✭

    I completely agree with this sentiment.

    www.twitch.tv/arkryuken

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    ye bringing all classes into the same dps range for pve is bad and hard to do, change is evil never do it cuz I want to remain more op then everyone else

    Te lazla otstara.

  • RUNICBLACK.7630RUNICBLACK.7630 Member ✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    ye bringing all classes into the same dps range for pve is bad and hard to do, change is evil never do it cuz I want to remain more op then everyone else

    That is not what Obtena or anyone else is saying with regard to counter the argument , all that they are saying is change just for changes is sake is not only utterly pointless but is also counterproductive if not more damaging to the game as a whole and that would include all of the game modes. They don't disagree with the idea of considered and measured change and balance but what the earlier individual and some of the others have subscribed to is just "Shake It UP" where is there any sense of considered and measured change in that way of thinking, just because the changes that have happened are not to your liking in anyway means they lack value it just means YOU don't value them . I am honestly not totally onboard with every change but does that mean that I think everything they have done in this past very large balance patch was bad , no it doesn't not even remotely that and honestly I wouldn't expect it to be fully to my liking because I wasn't the one crafting this change but all that being said I'm willing to continue to wait see how these further changes play out.

    Life before Death
    Strength before Weakness
    Journey before Destination
    stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Words

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    all that they are saying is change just for changes is sake is not only utterly pointless but is also counterproductive

    people seem to use this sentiment to dismiss the argument for classes being closer together dps wise. obviously its a dumb thing to say "change for sake of change", but when you have close to equal representation of classes then more people will be happy which means more people will be playing. not to say some classes shouldn't be stronger then others, everyone should have their strengths. its also worthwhile to point out that if people see that things are fair it makes them less likely to ask for change.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 11, 2020

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    all that they are saying is change just for changes is sake is not only utterly pointless but is also counterproductive

    people seem to use this sentiment to dismiss the argument for classes being closer together dps wise.

    Well, let's start here ... I'm certainly not ... the argument against closer DPS is that the game and its content is designed to accommodate those wide DPS ranges to begin with, so the need for closer DPS doesn't exist if you play the game with that understanding.

    If you actually want to take us down the 'things need to be fair between classes' path, then you have to be more honest in recognizing that the sum of all the 'things' a class will have to make those comparisons isn't something that can be measured to make a sound and logical argument in the first place.

    But let's be REAL honest ... that's not what the OP is asking for. He want's change, just for changes sake because there is some fallacy that mixing it all up again is actually APPEALING to established and new players ... does that actually make sense to anyone here?

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Kicast.1459Kicast.1459 Member ✭✭✭

    But WvW is full of Revs Necros
    Pvp is busted by thieves and guardians are close to disapear.

    Are we talking about a PVE issue ?
    If yes lol sorry.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @cryorion.9532 said:
    Indeed, Guardian is the most overperforming profession in game, in general, for years now.
    People got used to having so much so in case of proper balance, the class will be completely dead, totally unplayable and absolutely non-viable in every game mode. Yikes.
    I hope the trade offs DH and FB will get will be brutal.

    FB should lose some offense and DH should lose some defense.

  • @Obtena.7952 said:

    But let's be REAL honest ... that's not what the OP is asking for. He want's change, just for changes sake because there is some fallacy that mixing it all up again is actually APPEALING to established and new players ... does that actually make sense to anyone here?

    Again, a bad assumption. I want overperforming specs brought in line... not just changes "for the sake of it." Guardian is overperforming and has been for years.

  • Holgarf.6581Holgarf.6581 Member ✭✭✭

    Maybe mention this is WvW in the title rather than a sweeping statement.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 14, 2020

    @Tyse the Black.6789 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    But let's be REAL honest ... that's not what the OP is asking for. He want's change, just for changes sake because there is some fallacy that mixing it all up again is actually APPEALING to established and new players ... does that actually make sense to anyone here?

    Again, a bad assumption. I want overperforming specs brought in line... not just changes "for the sake of it." Guardian is overperforming and has been for years.

    Your wording is more than questionable if that was your intent. Something is always going to be meta, so complaining that something is meta for too long isn't about overperforming specs being brought inline ... that's simply a call for changes to make something else meta. I made no assumptions ... I just understand what meta is.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Well, let's start here ... I'm certainly not ... the argument against closer DPS is that the game and its content is designed to accommodate those wide DPS ranges to begin with, so the need for closer DPS doesn't exist if you play the game with that understanding.

    If you actually want to take us down the 'things need to be fair between classes' path, then you have to be more honest in recognizing that the sum of all the 'things' a class will have to make those comparisons isn't something that can be measured to make a sound and logical argument in the first place.

    But let's be REAL honest ... that's not what the OP is asking for. He want's change, just for changes sake because there is some fallacy that mixing it all up again is actually APPEALING to established and new players ... does that actually make sense to anyone here?

    in pve why would you take a class that does less dps?
    no idea what you're trying to say in the second part.
    I'm not necessarily for nerfing guards cuz they're strong, but rather buff low dps classes.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 14, 2020

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Well, let's start here ... I'm certainly not ... the argument against closer DPS is that the game and its content is designed to accommodate those wide DPS ranges to begin with, so the need for closer DPS doesn't exist if you play the game with that understanding.

    If you actually want to take us down the 'things need to be fair between classes' path, then you have to be more honest in recognizing that the sum of all the 'things' a class will have to make those comparisons isn't something that can be measured to make a sound and logical argument in the first place.

    But let's be REAL honest ... that's not what the OP is asking for. He want's change, just for changes sake because there is some fallacy that mixing it all up again is actually APPEALING to established and new players ... does that actually make sense to anyone here?

    in pve why would you take a class that does less dps?

    For reasons that aren't related to DPS. Are you implying you can't think of a single reason other than DPS to play a class? I am sad for you if that's the case because the whole game is designed to allow people to do exactly that ... play for whatever reason they want.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    in pve why would you take a class that does less dps?

    For reasons that aren't related to DPS. Are you implying you can't think of a single reason other than DPS to play a class? I am sad for you if that's the case because the whole game is designed to allow people to do exactly that ... play for whatever reason they want.

    what the hell. the convo is about pve dps being widely unequal, don't try to change the subject. additionally, don't try to make this a meta vs. play how you want scenario either, this is specifically about meta dps in pve. lol.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • RUNICBLACK.7630RUNICBLACK.7630 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2020

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    what the hell. the convo is about pve dps being widely unequal, don't try to change the subject. additionally, don't try to make this a meta vs. play how you want scenario either, this is specifically about meta dps in pve. lol.

    Actually Tyse started the thread complaining about Guardians dominating in PvP(I really don't know where he is seeing that I'm PvP almost every season and I'm not seeing that) and then said that he is running into 2 to 3 Guardians in AT's (again I do tourneys and I'm not seeing it but to be fair other people's experience may vary) and than he was complaining about Guardians dominating in WvW an one of the main reasons for the WvW pirate ship model of conflict , the whole discussion on PvE was started later by other people.

    "Guardian (core, dragonhunter and firebrand) has been meta defining for too long. Most automated tournament teams have 2-3 guardians and guardian is why the super boring WvW pirateship meta works so well."

    Life before Death
    Strength before Weakness
    Journey before Destination
    stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Words

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2020

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    in pve why would you take a class that does less dps?

    For reasons that aren't related to DPS. Are you implying you can't think of a single reason other than DPS to play a class? I am sad for you if that's the case because the whole game is designed to allow people to do exactly that ... play for whatever reason they want.

    what the hell. the convo is about pve dps being widely unequal, don't try to change the subject. additionally, don't try to make this a meta vs. play how you want scenario either, this is specifically about meta dps in pve. lol.

    OK ... I'm not changing any subject ... it's not a problem that there is widely unequal PVE DPS. The game is designed for those things to work in those wide ranges.

    And to be honest, you aren't correct. Seems to me the OP is complaining about a PVP/WvW issue. If anything it was YOU that initiated this diversion about DPS for PVE, not me.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    in pve why would you take a class that does less dps?

    Because top-tier PvE dps classes and builds usually are trash at soloing content. Or because they had bad mechanics which don't transfer well from Fractals/Raids to open world bosses, etc. As example: scholar runes are absolute gabage for map completion, specailly for a Guardian.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Buran.3796 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    in pve why would you take a class that does less dps?

    Because top-tier PvE dps classes and builds usually are trash at soloing content. Or because they had bad mechanics which don't transfer well from Fractals/Raids to open world bosses, etc. As example: scholar runes are absolute gabage for map completion, specailly for a Guardian.

    I prefer fire works in OW, but scholar is one of the best runes for DH in most situations. You cannot go wrong with extra damage. Sustainability usually is not an issue.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    in pve why would you take a class that does less dps?

    For reasons that aren't related to DPS. Are you implying you can't think of a single reason other than DPS to play a class? I am sad for you if that's the case because the whole game is designed to allow people to do exactly that ... play for whatever reason they want.

    what the hell. the convo is about pve dps being widely unequal, don't try to change the subject. additionally, don't try to make this a meta vs. play how you want scenario either, this is specifically about meta dps in pve. lol.

    OK ... I'm not changing any subject ... it's not a problem that there is widely unequal PVE DPS. The game is designed for those things to work in those wide ranges.

    And to be honest, you aren't correct. Seems to me the OP is complaining about a PVP/WvW issue. If anything it was YOU that initiated this diversion about DPS for PVE, not me.

    cuz apparently I can't bring up something that indirectly relates to the topic at hand, ty forgot about that I must be losing my conversational prowess. I am talking about pve end game content and I should've been more specific.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    in pve why would you take a class that does less dps?

    For reasons that aren't related to DPS. Are you implying you can't think of a single reason other than DPS to play a class? I am sad for you if that's the case because the whole game is designed to allow people to do exactly that ... play for whatever reason they want.

    what the hell. the convo is about pve dps being widely unequal, don't try to change the subject. additionally, don't try to make this a meta vs. play how you want scenario either, this is specifically about meta dps in pve. lol.

    OK ... I'm not changing any subject ... it's not a problem that there is widely unequal PVE DPS. The game is designed for those things to work in those wide ranges.

    And to be honest, you aren't correct. Seems to me the OP is complaining about a PVP/WvW issue. If anything it was YOU that initiated this diversion about DPS for PVE, not me.

    cuz apparently I can't bring up something that indirectly relates to the topic at hand, ty forgot about that I must be losing my conversational prowess. I am talking about pve end game content and I should've been more specific.

    Sure you can ... just don't accuse ME of being the one that is changing the subject when it's YOU.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Altion.9576Altion.9576 Member ✭✭✭

    So, Guardians have too much Aegis, Necros have too much AOE Thiefs have too much Critic, lets nerf everything because you dont like how they play!! Dude Guardians are supposed to be a multiclass, for damage you have warriors and thiefs, for condi Necros and the rest, for Ala you have Mesmerss, the Guardian class was designed to be that way and to act as support or damage , you say that "in all 3 iterations and too much block chain when considered alongside the highly mobile burst potential" I could say the ridiculous amount of AOE the necros have kitten me off, same with the stupid high Thief crit damage, Every class has something that makes them unique in their own playstyle. I used to play ton of wvw as a Healer firebrand so I know first hand how crazy is the Necro damage and the thief in pvp.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyse the Black.6789 said:
    Most automated tournament teams have 2-3 guardians and guardian is why the super boring WvW pirateship meta works so well.

    Actually running more guardians is counter to pirateship meta. Run 2 firebrands per party and no pirateship group will beat you. If people didn't have sustain, blocks and stability, how would they push?

    I take you're on NA, because no one on EU runs pirateship. It is just because NA likes running funky things like Mesmer and Revenant commanders on open tags. Just dodge wells (the middle sized AoEs), its that easy.

    Btw, dragon banner needs nerfs, it is quite punishing for groups pushing in.

    Riformed - On break from commanding
    Diamond Legend
    ~Waiting for them to fix WvW~

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2020

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @cryorion.9532 said:
    Indeed, Guardian is the most overperforming profession in game, in general, for years now.
    People got used to having so much so in case of proper balance, the class will be completely dead, totally unplayable and absolutely non-viable in every game mode. Yikes.
    I hope the trade offs DH and FB will get will be brutal.

    FB should lose some offense and DH should lose some defense.

    Don’t they pretty much already do that?

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @Tyse the Black.6789 said:
    Most automated tournament teams have 2-3 guardians and guardian is why the super boring WvW pirateship meta works so well.

    Actually running more guardians is counter to pirateship meta. Run 2 firebrands per party and no pirateship group will beat you. If people didn't have sustain, blocks and stability, how would they push?

    I take you're on NA, because no one on EU runs pirateship. It is just because NA likes running funky things like Mesmer and Revenant commanders on open tags. Just dodge wells (the middle sized AoEs), its that easy.

    Btw, dragon banner needs nerfs, it is quite punishing for groups pushing in.

    I’m on NA and run with a Zerg commander that does not do pirate ship meta. We normally chew up the zergs that do this too. Also, we do a very mixed group of classes. The exception being thieves and rangers.

    Agree with the dragon banner nerf need. It’s annoying and we avoid using them because it’s a toxic and cheap tactic. Its especially annoying when the opposing Zerg runs 3 banners!

    “Be like water”-Bruce Lee

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @cryorion.9532 said:
    Indeed, Guardian is the most overperforming profession in game, in general, for years now.
    People got used to having so much so in case of proper balance, the class will be completely dead, totally unplayable and absolutely non-viable in every game mode. Yikes.
    I hope the trade offs DH and FB will get will be brutal.

    FB should lose some offense and DH should lose some defense.

    Don’t they pretty much already do that?

    Not really, and that is the problem. You can seriously argue that that they've lost nothing for what they've gained.

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @cryorion.9532 said:
    Indeed, Guardian is the most overperforming profession in game, in general, for years now.
    People got used to having so much so in case of proper balance, the class will be completely dead, totally unplayable and absolutely non-viable in every game mode. Yikes.
    I hope the trade offs DH and FB will get will be brutal.

    FB should lose some offense and DH should lose some defense.

    Don’t they pretty much already do that?

    Not really, and that is the problem. You can seriously argue that that they've lost nothing for what they've gained.

    So you would run dps on a FB vs Core dps?

    “Be like water”-Bruce Lee

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @cryorion.9532 said:
    Indeed, Guardian is the most overperforming profession in game, in general, for years now.
    People got used to having so much so in case of proper balance, the class will be completely dead, totally unplayable and absolutely non-viable in every game mode. Yikes.
    I hope the trade offs DH and FB will get will be brutal.

    FB should lose some offense and DH should lose some defense.

    Don’t they pretty much already do that?

    Not really, and that is the problem. You can seriously argue that that they've lost nothing for what they've gained.

    So you would run dps on a FB vs Core dps?

    You can. Symbol Brand is a thing you know. FB has more things in its kit than a core guardian does.

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @cryorion.9532 said:
    Indeed, Guardian is the most overperforming profession in game, in general, for years now.
    People got used to having so much so in case of proper balance, the class will be completely dead, totally unplayable and absolutely non-viable in every game mode. Yikes.
    I hope the trade offs DH and FB will get will be brutal.

    FB should lose some offense and DH should lose some defense.

    Don’t they pretty much already do that?

    Not really, and that is the problem. You can seriously argue that that they've lost nothing for what they've gained.

    So you would run dps on a FB vs Core dps?

    You can. Symbol Brand is a thing you know. FB has more things in its kit than a core guardian does.

    Core heavily outweighs FB for dps though. Sure you can do FB dps, but not like Core.

    “Be like water”-Bruce Lee

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @cryorion.9532 said:
    Indeed, Guardian is the most overperforming profession in game, in general, for years now.
    People got used to having so much so in case of proper balance, the class will be completely dead, totally unplayable and absolutely non-viable in every game mode. Yikes.
    I hope the trade offs DH and FB will get will be brutal.

    FB should lose some offense and DH should lose some defense.

    Don’t they pretty much already do that?

    Not really, and that is the problem. You can seriously argue that that they've lost nothing for what they've gained.

    So you would run dps on a FB vs Core dps?

    You can. Symbol Brand is a thing you know. FB has more things in its kit than a core guardian does.

    Core heavily outweighs FB for dps though. Sure you can do FB dps, but not like Core.

    And FB brings more CC to lock core into the symbols. Raw DPS numbers are not the end all be all of what wins a fight.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2020

    Why did pve come up here all of a sudden? Firebrand is meta only in fractals solely due to quickness and aegis. DH is good dps but not the best. Not necessary in raids at all. They're also good for carrying really bad players throughout the game, but that's not what meta means.

    In WvW, Firebrand is only 1/2 the problem. The other half is scourge. Nerfing guardian doesn't help the issue of pirate ship; and in fact Guardian was nerfed. It just got worse because some classes have limited access to stability and corrupts. There is also burn guard, but Anet did not nerf condi damage for some reason. It was also nerfed recently though. Of course, in large scale WvW, only thief and ranger are without a role though immobolize spam has been getting popular from ranger; and these two classes remain strong elsewhere in WvW.

    Just because Guardian is the only well designed class doesn't mean you have to be bitter. :) It's not our fault Anet failed to come up with a vision for some classes and specs, thus making them overly specialized. Nerfs or buffs won't suddenly make say, scrapper, viable in pve. These things need to be fundamentally retooled per game mode.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Sure you can ... just don't accuse ME of being the one that is changing the subject when it's YOU.

    yes... I did initially. I read something written by someone else which I should've quoted. then you tried to use what you were saying in your other convo which didn't make any sense. it was a misunderstanding.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2020

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @cryorion.9532 said:
    Indeed, Guardian is the most overperforming profession in game, in general, for years now.
    People got used to having so much so in case of proper balance, the class will be completely dead, totally unplayable and absolutely non-viable in every game mode. Yikes.
    I hope the trade offs DH and FB will get will be brutal.

    FB should lose some offense and DH should lose some defense.

    Don’t they pretty much already do that?

    Not really, and that is the problem. You can seriously argue that that they've lost nothing for what they've gained.

    So you would run dps on a FB vs Core dps?

    You can. Symbol Brand is a thing you know. FB has more things in its kit than a core guardian does.

    Core heavily outweighs FB for dps though. Sure you can do FB dps, but not like Core.

    And FB brings more CC to lock core into the symbols. Raw DPS numbers are not the end all be all of what wins a fight.

    And I know several Core guardians that chew up competent symbolbrands for breakfast. No, dps doesn’t win the day, it’s the player behind it. This Still doesn’t change what I said earlier.

    “Be like water”-Bruce Lee