Is the Revenant Shortbow that bad? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Is the Revenant Shortbow that bad?

aaron.7850aaron.7850 Member ✭✭✭

Got exited to unlock the elite spec, then noticed 99% of the builds in metabattle dont use short bow... yikes!
Is it that awful?

Comments

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    No, but META comp assume everyone is tightly packed together in melee range. And melee weapon are made better than range weapon as part of the balance (most of the time).

  • aaron.7850aaron.7850 Member ✭✭✭

    except most other classes have plenty of builds in metabattle that use their ranged weapons

  • RaidsAreEasyAF.8652RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 Member ✭✭✭

    Bow is good for PvE though.

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What content are we talking about? In pve, condi dps Renegade does use shortbow.
    In competitive mode, the problem is not the shortbow, but Kalla in general. Or more specifically, the fact that Glint has no energy costs makes every other elite spec obsolete until Anet decides to revamp the energy system.

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Also, metabattle is not the best for pve build advice. I suggest snowcrows for raids and discretize for fractals.

  • aaron.7850aaron.7850 Member ✭✭✭

    I play mainly open-world and wvw, and rarely spvp.

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 4, 2020

    Good single target damage, good aoe, 200 breakbar damage on a low cooldown (of course, Kalla already laughts at breakbars with Darkrazor's Daring), shortbow is absolutely usable (and one of the best ranged weapons) for open world. Personally, I like playing core rev, but when you don't feel like trying too hard and just want to 11111 stuff to death, power shortbow is quite potent.

    For wvw, Herald is just too good.

  • Scoobaniec.9561Scoobaniec.9561 Member ✭✭✭

    Its trash just like kalla and the whole line itself. For raids and thats it

  • @aaron.7850 said:
    I play mainly open-world and wvw, and rarely spvp.

    Open world it’s great in. Wooden potatoes has a great open world renegade bow power build you can check out. Traits mostly the same even after feb patch.

    Wvw depends on what you want to do but would say it’s not great in roaming/small skirmishes and should go power herald Shiro for that. If you mainly Zerg or blob, and aren’t in a tight wad squad, you can basically run whatever you want/enjoy.

    Spvp has bunkerish builds in meta battle that while rated low, can do work in right hands.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 5, 2020

    2 and 3 are both unreliable skills in PvP/WvW. 4 and 5 are solid but can be a bit awkward to use. With 2 generally being the primary bread-and-butter dps skill on most weapons, it makes shortbow have rather poor burst due to it being hard to land and an unimpactful condition. The weapon also lacks an evade, block, or movement skill. Best thing about Shortbow in PvP/WvW IMO is the autoattack and its synergy with Soulcleave's Summit and Impossible Odds.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah renegade so bad anet didn't have to nerf it in wvw/spvp this spring rofl...

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's a PvE weapon used by people that don't get in melee range with sword (power) or mace+axe (condi).

    I saw someone using it in t4 fractals last week instead of swords... needless to say it didn't work out too well for them and nobody was getting alacrity either (no idea what that person was doing).

  • aaron.7850aaron.7850 Member ✭✭✭

    Well I just tested it with a power build, and boy.. I did not like it at all. I can already imagine how frustrating it would be to trying to land most of the weapon skills in a pvp scenario where enemies are constantly moving.

    Its a shame, hammer is fun but slow and I really wanted the bow to be fun to use.

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @aaron.7850 said:
    Well I just tested it with a power build, and boy.. I did not like it at all. I can already imagine how frustrating it would be to trying to land most of the weapon skills in a pvp scenario where enemies are constantly moving.

    Its a shame, hammer is fun but slow and I really wanted the bow to be fun to use.

    It’s not really a power weapon so that’s definitely part of the problem you’re having with it. Works best in open world in full viper gear and condi traits

  • Draygorn.7012Draygorn.7012 Member ✭✭✭

    SB is pretty useful in open world and some raids. Not too bad in fractals, though people are more fond of power builds there, so swords will probably be better. My experience of using SB in WvW is that it's actually okay in team fights. I've had some luck in small scale with well timed scorchrazor and spiritcrush. Don't bother using the other skills though lol. I haven't done pvp in a long time, but it seems to not do very well there.

  • SB is a niche condition weapon. To see shortbow shine you need a very large target that is mostly stationary with a massive amount of HP. The reason you need all of these things to happen is because without a large stationary target many skills become unreliable such as 2 and 3. You also need a massive amount of HP because thats the only time condition damage can out shine power builds. It is a really good weapon for specific Raid encounters but you'd mostly see it in Open world. In Open world anything goes tho so you could run around with staff or exclusively using axe offhand and it wouldnt really make much difference.

  • DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    My feeling is that the entire Renegade was designed with Raids in mind. Before Path of Fire Revenant wasn’t the best option to plat that mode.

    So, as above, Shortbow is a good weapon for huge stationary targets which means nothing outside of Raids or the Inquest Mega Golem world boss in Mount Maelstrom. It can feel pretty good when you land your skills but the performance drops dramatically when it comes to moving targets. This applies to the entire Renegade Specialization since your whole utility bar, even heal, works like that.

    There is a PvP build that utilizes Shortbow but using Power. And a guy actually managed to get Legendary league with that build. But it required a lot of workarounds and some things use very weird mechanics, so take away a single thing from it and the build stops working.
    People have been complaining and requesting a rework of SB since PoF, but because Renegade performs great in Raids (for which it seems to be made), ai don’t think the devs are going to do anything about it.

    TL;DR
    The Shortbow is just impractical in most scenarios.

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭

    Not really bad, there are a few of caveats though. The #2 and #3 skills are unreliable and situational to use, the #4 can't be used behind your character. Of course for PvE none of that really matters. For wvw/pvp gameplay it seems like the best way to use shortbow is to alternate between auto-attacking and comboing the others skills off Scorchrazor (#5). If you include Kalla legend skills you can be even more effective.

    Examples:
    #5 -> #2
    #5 -> #4
    #5 -> #4 -> #2
    Icerazor -> #5 -> #4
    Icerazor -> #5 -> #4 -> #2

    Usually you want to use #2 last in combos since it has the highest cast time. If Scorchrazor's on cooldown the only time you can really use #2 and #3 on their own is when an enemy is downed or reviving an ally.

    Also, taking advantage of the double proc of auto-attack with Soulcleave's Summit is a good idea. A good way to start is by dropping Icerazor slightly in front of your character as area denial, then Soulcleave on top of yourself. It can be pretty effective against clones/minions since they just walk right into Icerazor and give extra Soulcleave procs while you're auto-ing their master.

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I mostly WvW, so my opinion is based on it, but SB is a still a good weapon to use if you’re skilled with it. The exception being skill2. As people have stated, it’s highly unreliable and is best used only if the target is stunned, knocked down, or in downstate. Don’t bother using it if they’re upright and moving.

    A lot of people claim skill3 is also unreliable, but I disagree and say that it’s completely dependent on the SB user’s ability to use skill shots. I personally have no problems landing all 7 arrows nearly 100% of the time I use it. That being said, I do feel it’s energy cost doesn’t quite equate to it’s benefit and either the condi or power damage should be slightly buffed.

    I see some people above are using it as a power weapon, but it’s better used as condi/power hybrid imo.

    “Be like water”-Bruce Lee

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Shortbow can be used in PvE and works fine, but being an hybrid weapon and with bleeding and burning (Sevenshoot is not a reliable source of tormen) as the main condition that applies has 0 synergies with mace and axe, which apply mostly torment and burning. As result of that, doesn't benefits that much from the Rune of Tormenting, so the sustain while using the bow is way lower than while using the condition mele weapons.

    In WvW the auto attack is meh, is not terrible but doesn't provide the same degree of pressure as other ranger weapons from other classes; the #5 is a good cc but has a limited angle of cast, which makes it useless when a enemy flanks you. #4 and #5 can work in small skirmishes and teamfights but usually are bad for roaming, and #2 & #3 are just garbage. So you end with a weapon with no mobility skills, no defensive skills, 2 useless skills which became up to 4 useless skills when the foe flanks/rears you. So when you fight foes at range with the shortbow in WvW usually you're in disadvantage, and is even worse when you enter in mele combat.

    The only use I found for the sb in WvW was making easier to kill the elite Wyrm in the desert borderland, because it tends to fill the place with flames, and using Shiro + Mallyx + short bow/staff lets you to damage him at range without being toasted (is harder to mele). But PvEing at WvW just make no sense, so... I think that condi Herald/condi core is stronger than anything the Renegade with sb could bring to the table in WvW.

    In PvP I've played both condi Herald (mace + axe/shield) and condi Mallyx (sb + mace & axe) and I think that Herald (and also core) are stronger, specially if you play with randoms which doesn't support you if you end being focused: when a mele class enters in your cqc range the bow becomes useless; if your weapon set in swap is mace you will barely have any defense (maybe using the shield, but is a block with long cooldown), if it's the staff you have more defenses, but now you do no damage for 10 seconds, because staff dps is atrocius in berserker stats, and if you're running a short bow renegade your amulet probably will be carrion, and that means low physical damage and almost no condition procs from that weapon.

    So, in player vs player environments the shortbow provides medium pressure that decays faster as the distance closes, with clunky skills which oftenly can't be used, with no defensive or mobility value. In PvE, when you have more control over the range at which you figth foes works ok, but I feel that mele condi Revs are sturdier and more fun to use. And despite being weak in terms of AoE dps compared to a condition Renegade, power Revs have more sustain, much more mobility and can do PvE content perfectly fine. Mobility is also a concern with Renegade because one of the reasons I moved from maining a Guardian to a Rev was the constant need to use Traveller runes, whereas a Herald has access to Facet of Elements, Rising Momentum and Impossible Odds; only that last one is available to a Renegade.

    There's also another point against the short bow: currently the ONLY reason this weapon is used is because Renegade does well at raids, which was the only focus of the specialization (which was released with things as asburd of having the breakstun in the healing skill, just to remark how uninterested in competitive game modes were the designers of this spec); with the arrival of the next expansion the chances are that the new specs will perform better than the current ones (because is a selling point, and power creep is a constant in MMOs). So once the new specs arrives and performs better than Renegade at raids, what is the point of playing a Renegade? The playstile isn't great, the legend is bad, the weapon has very limited use and the only reason teams put Renegades in their raids is to buff numbers and share boons. Is almost impossible to design a new spec as clunky and forgetable as the Renegade, so as long as has decent skills and gives something similar to the Kalla's Fervor the Renegade will be ditched instantly. Thast's why I don't like this spec: has very low synergies to PvP/WvW, a weak weapon in terms of dps on enemy players and no tools (the staff has low damage but still gives useful tools). All in all: shortbow is bad and the Revenant lacks ranged weapons.

  • ScottBroChill.3254ScottBroChill.3254 Member ✭✭✭

    It's not terrible and really its a nice open world weapon for clearing adds and attacking large targets that don't move a lot. The problems with it are mostly for pvp, but skill 2 on shortbow misses all the time and there is a lack of utility on shortbow that is only problematic because rev lacks good secondary weapon sets. It serves the same purpose as mace/axe, just at range.

    The problems with shortbow, and also renegade, is that it's not really designed around active combat and mobility which this game has a whole bunch of. Luckily, the numbers are buffed a lot that make the clunky playstyle feel very effective.

  • aaron.7850aaron.7850 Member ✭✭✭

    well i have now tested all longbows and bows from all classes and so far its revenant's shortbow that its the most restrictive, it needs its #2 reworked to provide some sort of pvp utility

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 6, 2020

    @Buran.3796 said:
    So once the new specs arrives and performs better than Renegade at raids, what is the point of playing a Renegade?

    It will be used for the same reason it's used now, alacrity and heals.

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    @Buran.3796 said:
    So once the new specs arrives and performs better than Renegade at raids, what is the point of playing a Renegade?

    It will be used for the same reason it's used now, alacrity and heals.

    Don't forget it's high condi dps too! I'm fairly certain the new spec won't have as much condi damage as Ren, so Ren will still be preferred as Condi for fights that don't favor Power.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2020

    @aaron.7850 said:
    Got exited to unlock the elite spec, then noticed 99% of the builds in metabattle dont use short bow... yikes!
    Is it that awful?

    Outside of specific PvE content, yes, it is awful. The main damage skill, skill 3, needs the target to be: stationary, at mid range and preferably large hit box. Needless to say, that does not work in most context. I play renegade a lot nowadays in open world. I have SB, but mostly sit on mace/axe.

    As for Kalla, it is badly designed, but anything can work when you brute force with high damage modifiers and ridiculous effects. It is very strong in PvE.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:
    What content are we talking about? In pve, condi dps Renegade does use shortbow.
    In competitive mode, the problem is not the shortbow, but Kalla in general. Or more specifically, the fact that Glint has no energy costs makes every other elite spec obsolete until Anet decides to revamp the energy system.

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:
    What content are we talking about? In pve, condi dps Renegade does use shortbow.
    In competitive mode, the problem is not the shortbow, but Kalla in general. Or more specifically, the fact that Glint has no energy costs makes every other elite spec obsolete until Anet decides to revamp the energy system.

    It most definitely is the shortbow as well. For one, the shortbow suffers from all the terrain ills of the revenant class. From Unrelenting Assault to Coalescing Ruin to Sevenshot to Bloodbane Path to Scorchrazor are all terribly inconsistent in landing the complete attack with the slightest change in terrain or when near walls.

    Sevenshot also is a skill that assumes the revenant can control distance to land the proper projectiles all on a coalescing point, but the fact is that shortbow and revenant in general have abysmal kiting tools to do so, unlike ranger and thief.

    The only reason shortbow works in PvE is because PvE is a mess where virtually every single encounter consists of a stack of people hitting a boss point blank for 99.9% of the encounter, and most of these bosses have large enough hitboxes for any skill to land the full shots. There's no such thing as skill shots in PvE because with the way boons are shared only within melee range as well as healing, all the spatial aspect of the game is removed.

    PvE also does an atrocious job of selecting melee and ranged mechanics separately, at best it's usually 1-2 people baiting a ranged mechanic and that's it. It's nothing even close to WoW where multiple concurrent ranged+melee+healer+ tank mechanics force positional arrangements that just don't exist in GW2, so the ranged weapons in this game are essentially played like melee ones.

  • Funky.4861Funky.4861 Member ✭✭✭

    I used the snowcrows condi rene build for months in OW pve and never really had any trouble with it once i got the basics down. It shines in bounty/non-commune HP's and mob-dense areas. If the #3 skill is annoying you, check your ground-targetting settings in 'Options'; i have mine set to 'cast on release' so i can hold the button down for as long as i need to align the shot.

  • Blixem.2486Blixem.2486 Member ✭✭
    edited May 13, 2020

    I've been trying it in WvW -- I love the animations and the vibe, but from the perspective of an average player (and repeating what others have said above):

    -- no defensive / mobility skills
    -- can't cast 4 behind
    -- 3 slightly unreliable
    -- 2 has a long cast time

    In the perfect fight -- open, blobs not too massive, bit spread out -- it does good work. But this is hardly flexible. The other issue is if you pair it with m/a you still have no defensives, and with staff you have some mobility but only have the SB for damage.

    As for the Renegade legend, if you can land the elite + icerazors it's kinda cool, but again you need a slower / more predictable fight. Often I think I'd be doing better with m/a and staff. I don't mind the Renegade trait line per se, the alacrity is still nice.