The underlying cause of nerf threads

The Short Answer comes in two parts: Ego and Instant Gratification, but there's a lot more to it than that.

Rerolling - Your best friend or your worst enemy?

How often have you witnessed the following scenario. A player dies to a certain build. They label that build in their mind as OP. They decide "if you can't beat them, join them". They reroll to that build, and to no one's surprise, the results they were expecting never come.

But Why?

They try a different meta build, perhaps this time, the results they see are better, they climb in the short term, but inevitably they hit another wall. Players start punishing them for their mistakes. They get locked down in teamfights, They try to land their burst, but that pesky theif or mesmer keeps evading it. Why isn't their build working?

That person naturally comes to the conclusion that their build is truly OP, but all these other mechanics, from CC, to evades, to sustain, to blocks are even more OP. If only these were nerfed, they would climb and achieve the rank they deserve.

Mental Game vs Meta Game

The root of this frustration lies deeper than buffs or nerfs. As we've seen, no amount of nerfs leave these types of people satisfied. As one outlier is knocked down, another takes it's place. This one, perhaps, more frustrating than the last. In order to get to the root, we have to look past the meta. The meta does not matter as much as people give it credit for. The reality of the situation is that PvP has an enormous skill cap. Good players can exploit solid fundamentals to climb to high ranks regardless of build.

Unfortunately, we live in a world where we're conditioned to expect instant results. Self reflection is hard. It's painful. You have to be willing to put your ego aside and admit to yourself that that person didn't only win because his build was OP. We was legitimately better than you. This really stings one's pride. We human beings are averse to pain, we choose to soften the blow by lieing to ourselves. We choose to preserve our ego even if it comes at the cost of our improvement.

Instead we turn to old habits. We want the solution to our problem now. If one build doesn't work, we try another, then another, and another, each with varying degrees of success, and each time, we come up against frustrating mechanics that stonewall us from achieving the results we want to see.

Why certain mechanics are so frustrating

We've established that people are conditioned to expect instant results. We've established that self reflection is hard, that letting go of one's ego is a difficult endeavor, even for the best of us.

In PvP, there are certain mechanics that are especially effective at punishing these types of players. The type who rely on external factors such as build to give them instant results they want. The exact type most likely to auto-pilot their games, trying the same strategies with little willingness to adapt to the situation.

These mechanics include: CC, Evades, Blocks, Invulns, Counters, and Sustain.

Why are these mechanics so frustrating?

Imagine you've opted to reroll to burn guardian. It's easy enough, you just land your burst, and rely on your aegis and invuln to carry you if your make a mistake.

You go to land your burst onto a mesmer but he evades it. You try to land your burst onto a weaver, but he just cleansed it and healed it all back. You try again against a rev but, damnit, Infuse Light is OP.

You were so focused on what your gameplan should be, that you didn't stop, even for a second, to consider what your opponent's gameplan might be.

These types of mechanics excel at punishing this short sighted mindset. That's why they see a disproportionate amount of hate threads by the community.CC will halt you mid combo, invulns, blocks and evades will cause you to whiff your burst if you don't bait it. Sustain punishes you for not investing the time to optimize your combos. You gave your opponent a window to breathe and they took advantage of it, but you didn't see any of that.

What you saw was another OP build using it's OP mechanics to thwart you.

--And the one responsible for that was not you. It was Anet for allowing these mechanics to exist in the first place.

Conclusion

Fixing your mindset is hard. Not only do you have to worry about the long arduous path of self improvement. You have to get over the monumental hurdle that is your own ego. That hurdle prevents many from going down that path in the first place. That hurdle will convince you that anyone that attempts to help you overcome your shortcoming is secretly conspiring against you. They're not trying to help, they're biased and just defending their class.

Thankfully, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. If you can overcome that hurdle, you'll be a step ahead of the competition. You'll be able to reach heights most players can only dream of. Whether or not you choose to walk it is entirely up to you.

Overcoming one's ego isn't just hard in this game, it's impossible.

There's mechanics at work in this game that have the unintended consequence of massively inflating people's egos, and I don't agree with them. I do agree that they're annoying, and should probably be changed or removed so that they exist as less of an ego boost and more as a fair feature of the game, but I don't think think that nerfs and the people asking for them have much to do with it.

Balance is just the big scapegoat if you ask me. A way to keep the community arguing amongst themselves while the real ego-driven manipulation happens in completely different ways.

Even if that's not the case, I don't think nerf request threads are a big source of egotism. It's essentially just copying a philosophy that everyone already knows is in play here.Nerfs > Buffs ?

some calls for nerfs have truth to them, some don't. the underlying cause of them is that anet is incapable of determining what things are over powered or under powered in their own game.

I'd hate to sound like a snob, but it could be unpractical or unrealistic at this point to even try and convince people not to complain, because there is too much ignorance (about the game and it's balance).

I us to be just like everyone else. I thought along the lines of "buff this, nerf that." And thinking back on it in hindsight it was short-sighted and misguided. It took me a moment of epiphany to realize a much larger grand scale picture that completely altered my mindset. The first thing i realized back then was that i didn't do any actual analysis before complaining. That was the key in approaching things from a REAL analytical standpoint.

Most people complain with nothing but their own biases, and little to no research. Even people who want to offer constructive feedback don't do proper analysis. It's not because people are dumb. It's because people don't even know how or don't bother to put in the effort. Think about how many people have come up with ideas that we've all heard before as if the devs never thought or implemented such things in the past.

Prime example here, is that a while ago, people said that the former balance team was bad because they only played and balanced for PVE (which could have perhaps been true to an extent) and that the only way proper balance will happen is if we listen to top ranked ESL level players since they "know the game better." Well we've now got what they wished for. CMC is an exclusive ESL level PVP player. and yet here we are at what i would consider to be the peak of the worst balance in the game ever since launch. Where are these people now that made this suggestion? What was the reasoning, where was the critical analysis? (Btw I've got nothing against CMC i think he's a wonderful man, and i definitely don't mind that he is a dev trying his best to get the game in order.)

Anyway, the idea is that there is no real analysis happening, no constructive, analytical discussions, just opinions and hate being thrown about like it's nobodies business. Nobody has numbers, facts, or models. Nobody has historical data, scientific data or tests.... nothing other than bias opinions and nothing more. What's worse is that some opinions become "common knowledge," because some streamer said so (or whatever reasoning) and so we have players that will not for any price listen to what you have to say, and their belief in whatever they were told will remain unfaltering.

Ive long given up hoping for balance. The game is in an unfixable state because anet doesnt have the means of addressing the fundamental issues. Every balance patch over the last several years has more or less just been a band-aid solution ignoring the design flaws of classes and their applications in combat. A lot of the cries for nerfs over the years were completely justified, the problem has always been figuring out which class features and systems are the source of the issue. As stated in the OP, mechanics such as cc, condi, defensive ability, and passive effects are often the cause of complaints, and there is very good reasoning for that. While these game mechanics are complex and often just misunderstood, they are also often implemented in toxic ways. Its not always easy to see that when most players are only concerned with in game effectiveness relative to the meta, so people argue without fully understanding the issue.

I think for many people including myself, there was a point when you just stopped enjoying the game, but kept playing because of how much you have invested in it. If you dont realize when you reach that point, you just get frustrated and start mindlessly hating it.

@"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said:Ive long given up hoping for balance. The game is in an unfixable state because anet doesnt have the means of addressing the fundamental issues. Every balance patch over the last several years has more or less just been a band-aid solution ignoring the design flaws of classes and their applications in combat. A lot of the cries for nerfs over the years were completely justified, the problem has always been figuring out which class features and systems are the source of the issue. As stated in the OP, mechanics such as cc, condi, defensive ability, and passive effects are often the cause of complaints, and there is very good reasoning for that. While these game mechanics are complex and often just misunderstood, they are also often implemented in toxic ways. Its not always easy to see that when most players are only concerned with in game effectiveness relative to the meta, so people argue without fully understanding the issue.

I think for many people including myself, there was a point when you just stopped enjoying the game, but kept playing because of how much you have invested in it. If you dont realize when you reach that point, you just get frustrated and start mindlessly hating it.

What you find toxic..may just be what identifies the class in this MMO, in the end this is a game with 9 different professions and what you may find "toxic" to play against may well be what makes your opponent class interesting to play.

People tend to think selfishly at their own fun...what about other players who bought the game like you? Let's say you play a class with high HP which allow you to play a certain way, now your opponent plays a class with less base HP and ofc for compensation this class will have strong defensive mechanics that you may find...toxic to go against, if your opponent class can't stand a chance against you while putting equal amount of effort....well the game will stops being fun to play for your enemy, don't you think that's unfair?

The real issue is, the Devs have proven that they will cave to the nerf posts.

Look at WoW. In low tier PvP, Demon Hunters destroy bad players. All day long people cry on the forums that they need nerfed. But if you look at top teams and leaderboards, Demon Hunter is hardly represented, because top players know how to counter it.

WoW’s devs balanced based on top tier. A-net could learn from them.

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:I'd hate to sound like a snob, but it could be unpractical or unrealistic at this point to even try and convince people not to complain, because there is too much ignorance (about the game and it's balance).

I us to be just like everyone else. I thought along the lines of "buff this, nerf that." And thinking back on it in hindsight it was short-sighted and misguided. It took me a moment of epiphany to realize a much larger grand scale picture that completely altered my mindset. The first thing i realized back then was that i didn't do any actual analysis before complaining. That was the key in approaching things from a REAL analytical standpoint.

Most people complain with nothing but their own biases, and little to no research. Even people who want to offer constructive feedback don't do proper analysis. It's not because people are dumb. It's because people don't even know how or don't bother to put in the effort. Think about how many people have come up with ideas that we've all heard before as if the devs never thought or implemented such things in the past.

Prime example here, is that a while ago, people said that the former balance team was bad because they only played and balanced for PVE (which could have perhaps been true to an extent) and that the only way proper balance will happen is if we listen to top ranked ESL level players since they "know the game better." Well we've now got what they wished for. CMC is an exclusive ESL level PVP player. and yet here we are at what i would consider to be the peak of the worst balance in the game ever since launch. Where are these people now that made this suggestion? What was the reasoning, where was the critical analysis? (Btw I've got nothing against CMC i think he's a wonderful man, and i definitely don't mind that he is a dev trying his best to get the game in order.)

Anyway, the idea is that there is no real analysis happening, no constructive, analytical discussions, just opinions and hate being thrown about like it's nobodies business. Nobody has numbers, facts, or models. Nobody has historical data, scientific data or tests.... nothing other than bias opinions and nothing more. What's worse is that some opinions become "common knowledge," because some streamer said so (or whatever reasoning) and so we have players that will not for any price listen to what you have to say, and their belief in whatever they were told will remain unfaltering.

You might be right about that. Perhaps I'm screaming into a void, but it is as they say, nothing ventured nothing gained.

I've spent a good part of my life playing games competetively, and along the way, I've learned a lot about myself. I've had to swallow a lot of hard facts. I'm glad I went through that though. It's helped me improve, not only at each respective game, but it helped shine light on the way I approach life. My experiences helped me improve as a person, and as a bonus, I made a few friends along the way.

I'd like to share a bit of that knowledge that I gained with anyone who's willing to listen. If I was able to help even one person, perhaps someone who is on the fence and not quite sure where to go, then the 30-some minutes it took me to write this up were worth the investment.

CMC is doing good work, but we need more people to chime in and give their input. Experienced players who know the ins and outs of PvP. We saw a bit of that with the interviews CMC took part in. Hopefully we can see more of that in the future. It helps to have a second and third opinion from someone who knows what they're talking about.

Unfortunately, I don't know what can be done about player bias. Perhaps it can be used as a tool to gauge how frustrating or fair certain mechanics "feel" to play against. I'm no developer so I can't say how this information should most optimally be used. What I can do is speak on what I do know. How to keep a healthy competetive mindset.

@Kuma.1503 said:

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:I'd hate to sound like a snob, but it could be unpractical or unrealistic at this point to even try and convince people not to complain, because there is too much ignorance (about the game and it's balance).

I us to be just like everyone else. I thought along the lines of "buff this, nerf that." And thinking back on it in hindsight it was short-sighted and misguided. It took me a moment of epiphany to realize a much larger grand scale picture that completely altered my mindset. The first thing i realized back then was that i didn't do any actual analysis before complaining. That was the key in approaching things from a REAL analytical standpoint.

Most people complain with nothing but their own biases, and little to no research. Even people who want to offer constructive feedback don't do proper analysis. It's not because people are dumb. It's because people don't even know how or don't bother to put in the effort. Think about how many people have come up with ideas that we've all heard before as if the devs never thought or implemented such things in the past.

Prime example here, is that a while ago, people said that the former balance team was bad because they only played and balanced for PVE (which could have perhaps been true to an extent) and that the only way proper balance will happen is if we listen to top ranked ESL level players since they "know the game better." Well we've now got what they wished for. CMC is an exclusive ESL level PVP player. and yet here we are at what i would consider to be the peak of the worst balance in the game ever since launch. Where are these people now that made this suggestion? What was the reasoning, where was the critical analysis? (Btw I've got nothing against CMC i think he's a wonderful man, and i definitely don't mind that he is a dev trying his best to get the game in order.)

Anyway, the idea is that there is no real analysis happening, no constructive, analytical discussions, just opinions and hate being thrown about like it's nobodies business. Nobody has numbers, facts, or models. Nobody has historical data, scientific data or tests.... nothing other than bias opinions and nothing more. What's worse is that some opinions become "common knowledge," because some streamer said so (or whatever reasoning) and so we have players that will not for any price listen to what you have to say, and their belief in whatever they were told will remain unfaltering.

CMC isn't doing kitten. And it's not even his fault, if he was given creative control to be able to change skill functionality instead of being forced to tweak numbers as it's the only thing they'll let him do, for the sake of PvE bots, the previous patch would've looked a whole lot different. It's time to call it how it is, US PvP players are the minority and not the target audience. We'll always be an afterthought as far as this game's development goes. We can either accept and deal with it, or quit and move on to other titles. There won't be a change in policy regardless.

@Kuma.1503 said:

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:I'd hate to sound like a snob, but it could be unpractical or unrealistic at this point to even try and convince people not to complain, because there is too much ignorance (about the game and it's balance).

I us to be just like everyone else. I thought along the lines of "buff this, nerf that." And thinking back on it in hindsight it was short-sighted and misguided. It took me a moment of epiphany to realize a much larger grand scale picture that completely altered my mindset. The first thing i realized back then was that i didn't do any actual analysis before complaining. That was the key in approaching things from a REAL analytical standpoint.

Most people complain with nothing but their own biases, and little to no research. Even people who want to offer constructive feedback don't do proper analysis. It's not because people are dumb. It's because people don't even know how or don't bother to put in the effort. Think about how many people have come up with ideas that we've all heard before as if the devs never thought or implemented such things in the past.

Prime example here, is that a while ago, people said that the former balance team was bad because they only played and balanced for PVE (which could have perhaps been true to an extent) and that the only way proper balance will happen is if we listen to top ranked ESL level players since they "know the game better." Well we've now got what they wished for. CMC is an exclusive ESL level PVP player. and yet here we are at what i would consider to be the peak of the worst balance in the game ever since launch. Where are these people now that made this suggestion? What was the reasoning, where was the critical analysis? (Btw I've got nothing against CMC i think he's a wonderful man, and i definitely don't mind that he is a dev trying his best to get the game in order.)

Anyway, the idea is that there is no real analysis happening, no constructive, analytical discussions, just opinions and hate being thrown about like it's nobodies business. Nobody has numbers, facts, or models. Nobody has historical data, scientific data or tests.... nothing other than bias opinions and nothing more. What's worse is that some opinions become "common knowledge," because some streamer said so (or whatever reasoning) and so we have players that will not for any price listen to what you have to say, and their belief in whatever they were told will remain unfaltering.

Experienced players are not less biased than the rest..actually they tend to be much more biased, their vested interest in the game is well known between streaming and tournies, they'll do and say whatever necessary to be on the winning side...

@Kuma.1503 said:CMC is doing good work, but we need more people to chime in and give their input. Experienced players who know the ins and outs of PvP.

Personally, id rather see a theorycrafter take care of balance rather than an experienced PvPer. Most PVPers focus on the Meta and only the Meta and I think that’s been the prevailing philosophy for the past few years and it leads to bad balance (for a number of reasons, which I’ll skip over for now)

Theorycrafters know how to create new things...explore ideas...they are natural builders. I think that’s what balance needs at this point. New ideas and approaches.

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:CMC is doing good work, but we need more people to chime in and give their input. Experienced players who know the ins and outs of PvP.

Good point. Right now the only theorycrafter I know of is Vallun, but I'm sure there are more people out there that enjoy breaking the mold. I wouldn't mind seeing more of that around here. People posting their builds, receiving feedback, iterating based on experience and community input.

Perhaps there could be a PvP subforum for that kind of thing. Split things up so that people have a place to vent and a place for constructive discussion.

I think I should also add that if there were a lot more people playing this game and matches were closer most of the time, much of these nerf qq's would go away.

@Kuma.1503 said:

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:Personally, id rather see a theorycrafter take care of balance rather than an experienced PvPer. Most PVPers focus on the Meta and only the Meta and I think that’s been the prevailing philosophy for the past few years and it leads to bad balance (for a number of reasons, which I’ll skip over for now)

Theorycrafters know how to create new things...explore ideas...they are natural builders. I think that’s what balance needs at this point. New ideas and approaches.

I agree. When I work on a build, I try to make it as "consistently successfull" as I can but I lack the "final touch".

This is where the strong mains of that class come in. They are usually pretty reluctant at first but when they see the builds in action they also help choosing a better synergy, a better rune, even a better amulet, since they know how things scale better than me. That's why we need a theorycrafting section.

Theorycrafting in GW2 community is very lacking. There is so much to do.

@Kuma.1503 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:CMC is doing good work, but we need more people to chime in and give their input. Experienced players who know the ins and outs of PvP.

Vallun is a good player, but I would hardly consider him a legit theorycrafter

Someone like Boots is a legit theorycrafter.

There aren’t many theorycrafters out there anymore since they are more or less the veteran theorycrafters of GW1. A lot have been lost to time.

And this is why i'm against nerfing stuff too hard:

Kill pet damage and rangers won't have as much edge.

Take away sustain on necro: You end up deleting necro.

I disagree. I started playing my necromancer alt before the latest nerfs, and going from warrior the contrast was stark. It was easy to pick up, I could survive 1v2's for way too long, and 1v1 was a joke, they really struggled to down me in between the conditions eating away at them while I was spamming crowd control. About as how I would expect it to feel, having struggled to kill necromancers as a warrior. The result was there, and no longer did I have to avoid all aoe crap on capture points to deal damage, and it also meant that I was less susceptible to getting hit by random stuns and other effects because I could stand at a distance. Then the nerfs hit, and I still feel that my sustain is great.

@Drennon.7190 said:The real issue is, the Devs have proven that they will cave to the nerf posts.

Look at WoW. In low tier PvP, Demon Hunters destroy bad players. All day long people cry on the forums that they need nerfed. But if you look at top teams and leaderboards, Demon Hunter is hardly represented, because top players know how to counter it.

WoW’s devs balanced based on top tier. A-net could learn from them.

This is why I've pretty much moved on from the game. The classes themes, designs and playstyles u chose ur main for and were obviously the visions the devs had for them are constantly being altered in ways that don't just effect their balance but the things mentioned above. Its especially jarring that its the community of players that dislike the class that steer those changes due to the devs not having enough confidence to make the descisions themselves.

yup ppl mostly want their build to reign supreme with no bad matchup so can get most value with minimal efforts

while they don't achieve this they're very vocal on forums.

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said:Ive long given up hoping for balance. The game is in an unfixable state because anet doesnt have the means of addressing the fundamental issues. Every balance patch over the last several years has more or less just been a band-aid solution ignoring the design flaws of classes and their applications in combat. A lot of the cries for nerfs over the years were completely justified, the problem has always been figuring out which class features and systems are the source of the issue. As stated in the OP, mechanics such as cc, condi, defensive ability, and passive effects are often the cause of complaints, and there is very good reasoning for that. While these game mechanics are complex and often just misunderstood, they are also often implemented in toxic ways. Its not always easy to see that when most players are only concerned with in game effectiveness relative to the meta, so people argue without fully understanding the issue.

I think for many people including myself, there was a point when you just stopped enjoying the game, but kept playing because of how much you have invested in it. If you dont realize when you reach that point, you just get frustrated and start mindlessly hating it.

Well this is kind of what I meant by toxic mechanics, when one player uses questionable game features to get a significant advantage in combat. Fights become "unfair", one person has to put in much less effort to get equal or better results. Sure these mechanics are part of the game and add build diversity, but there are a lot of valid reasons why they shouldnt be. Features that remove the majority of counterplay options, force one specific playstyle onto your opponent, or just add completely unnecessary elements to combat (such as excessive visual effects) can usually be considered toxic, and its a very questionable decision to include them in what is supposed to be a competitive game.

Just nerf teef plz

I'm pretty casual with <1000 games played in 4.5 years and still only ever completed 1 ranked season. I probably spend more time solo roaming WvW (approaching rank 2000 from that). So, I guess you could say I am not so concerned about winning, I more just enjoy fighting other players. And maybe it's my roamer side showing, but I'm not even really concerned about the fights being fair (though I definitely prefer close matches in PvP!).

Given that, I guess it's understandable that I would be less sensitive to balance issues. But also, when I compare to my WoW PvP days (BC), this game's combat feels a lot better. It has fewer hard counters and they feel "softer" to me. There's also more build variety, owing to the non-trinity design allowing for a more free-form trait system as well as features like weapon-swapping.

Whatever it is, I feel like balance is not anywhere near as bad as some players make it out to be. Further, the feel of combat in this game seems generally well-received by players. When people list strong points of GW2, the combat is on that list every time. In my experience, it takes a lot to spoil that. Fighting just feels good in this game, and they've never been able to break that for me (thankfully!). The meta has never mattered to me. Pre-2/25 was great. It's great now. It was great a year ago and it was great when I played my ranked season back in HoT. Bunker? 1-shot? I've been able to play at the platinum level (well, I am a total noob at rotation and map awareness - I'm just handy in a fight, I guess!) since my first season and it's never mattered.

TL;DR: Nerf or buff whatever I guess? It probably won't matter. Combat feels good either way. Carry on.

@AliamRationem.5172 said:TL;DR: Nerf or buff whatever I guess? It probably won't matter. Combat feels good either way. Carry on.

Right. Again I hate to sound like the snob, But this is what I refer to in my comment when I brought up non analytical bias.

Your post is a personal post...nothing wrong with that at all. but what possible information can you establish to be true with what you said? How do we implement what you said into balancing the game?

I actually appreciate posts like this because it shows your point of view without toxicity. But I also know similar bizzaro land posts just like yours exist, except they are extremely toxic.

What the game needs is analytics...and objective truth. We can’t keep going to look at player feedback as gospel, because it will be different for everyone.

@Khalisto.5780 said:yup ppl mostly want their build to reign supreme with no bad matchup so can get most value with minimal efforts

while they don't achieve this they're very vocal on forums.

I believe the complaints start when there is effectively nothing on your class that can help against a specific enemy, not necessarily the same build that worked against others...just the lack of tools overall to deal with another problem altogether

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Khalisto.5780 said:yup ppl mostly want their build to reign supreme with no bad matchup so can get most value with minimal efforts

while they don't achieve this they're very vocal on forums.

and this i call balance

the FA weaver pre patch had nothing on mesmers but could burst a necro from 100% shroud to 20% life, but I knew that and never came on forums to call mesmer nerfs

i think most ppl dont understand their matchups and want to win fights they shouldnt, they prolly playing just one build and consistently die to this other class, which leads to them crying in the forums wanting the other class nerfed so they have no bad matchup