A complete turret rework is long overdue

IntroductionWhen I started playing the game, I immediately fell in love with the engineer class and knew that I wanted to main it. And especially turrets were a passion of mine in the past, I used nothing but turrets in my utility bar until I reached level 80. I liked the idea that I can fortify a point that it becomes impossible for enemies to fight me in my "danger zone".

Unfortunately, that dream had to die. There comes the day for every engineer when they have to accept that turrets are simply not allowed to be good. And that includes every game mode. PvP, PvE, WvW, it doesn't matter. With minor exceptions (healing turret and rifle turret, the last one is solely used for the spammable toolbelt skill), the turret skill type just doesn't have any place in he game whatsoever.

Anet actually even moved away from the idea that turrets should be something you get rewarded for keeping alive over long periods of time. Even changing it that turrets just overcharge a single time on placement and if you want them to overcharge again.... then you have to remove them and place them again. This is not how this should work, turrets should create an area that is in your control and rewarding you for keeping them alive as long as possible.

Then there is also the visual aspect of turrets. I don't know if I am the only one, but I was a bit underwhelmed by the design of their models.Engineer got advertised with pictures like this one: https://d3b4yo2b5lbfy.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/wallpapers/GW2_EngineerWallpaper02-1920x1200.jpgThat one on the front left side, this is a worthy design for a rifle turret. Or maybe use something that actually looks like the icon on our skill bar is implying:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/3/35/Rifle_Turret.png

But instead of these, we are stuck with a rifle turret that looks like this:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/8/89/Rifle_Turret.jpg

Engineer just has 4 core skill types: Kits, elixirs, gadgets, and turrets. Gadgets and turrets both are so weak they see practially no use, which means half of the engineer core utility skills are in a sad state of unviability. Let us work on that, please.

I welcome everyone to discuss how turrets can get improved to make playing a turreteer a viable playstyle in this game!

I have some thoughts about the topic, too. Obviously, I'm no game designer and it might be that people disagree with my interpretation of turrets. But let's try.

My suggested reworkTurrets no longer overcharge when getting placed and the turret skill no longer flips over to the detonation skill. You can no longer pick up the turret to decrease the cooldown of it. Instead of picking them up, interacting with a turret will make it detonate. These detonations all still count as blast finishers, but instead of all dealing power damage, the detonations get other effects added based on the turret type. Cooldowns for turrets will become fairly high and punishing, tho. So detonating a turret in this way will be a last resort type of skill. Also turrets are no longer auto attacking.

Placing a turret will make the skill flip over to the overcharge ability. While in combat these overcharge abilities are building up charges, similar to ammunition skills. But unlike these, the overcharge ability will not just use 1 charge when activated. It will consume all charges and the power of the ability is determined by the amount of stacks which got used to activate it.The turreteer wants to place the turrets in combat and keep them alive, while they are building up. Then he gets rewarded with a huge pay off by powerful overcharge abilities. Considering that turrets are no longer auto attacking while charging up, they should get increased survivability (more HP, more toughness).Overcharges also activate the reflection bubble from the trait "experimental turrets".

Healing TurretThe Healing Turret will heal the engineer on placement, just like right now. The overcharge ability will heal everyone in the area (up to 10 targets) and cleanse conditions. The healing amount and number of cleansed conditions increases with the charge count.Detonating the turret with the F-key will apply a unique buff on allies, which heals them for a small amount over time.

Rifle TurretThe overcharge ability of the Rifle Turret can crit now and scales with the attributes of the engineer. Activating the overcharge will rotate the rifle turret in your selected direction and let it deal ticking damage over a period of time in a cone. Duration of the barrage and damage increase with the charge count.Detonating the turret with the F-key will deal damage in the area.

Net Turret -> Chemical TurretToo many turrets are currently focused on applying CC. So some turrets will get a rework to give them a new niche. It looks like a tank with green liquid in it and has some vents on the top.The Chemical Turret will release green fumes in it's area when activated, which are applying boons for allies and conditions for foes (poison + confusion). Duration of the boons and stack number of conditions increase with the charge count. It counts as an elixir for traits.Detonating the turret with the F-key will make it enhance the same boons it provides itself by 2 seconds in duration and apply some bleeding on enemies.

Chemical Turret also gets a new toolbelt skill: Deadly MixtureThe engineer is releasing fumes, which are dealing ticking strike damage in an area around him for a few seconds. Instead of scaling with the engineer's power, this strike damage scales with condition damage and also with the number of boons the engineer currently has.

Rocket TurretThe overcharge ability of the Rocket Turret can crit now and scales with the attributes of the engineer. Activating the overcharge will strike the targeted area with a barrage of rockets, which are applying the effects of traits interacting with explosions. These rockets are unblockable. The damage increases with the charge count.Detonating the turret with the F-key will deal damage in the area (less than rifle turret) and apply 2 stacks of "unblockable" to the engineer.

Thumper Turret -> Static TurretThe Static Turret looks like a tesla coil, emitting electric surges. Overcharging it will release an electrical surge in the area (spreading like a shockwave) that will CC enemies caught in it, while also applying vulnerability and weakness. Type of CC (lower stacks: daze, higher stacks: stun) and duration increase with the charge count.Detonating the turret with the F-key will give allies in the area swiftness and remove movement impairing conditions.

Static Turret also gets a new toolbelt skill: Shock TherapyThis skill will deal some slight damage around the engineer and daze foes while stunbreaking.

Flame TurretThe Flame Turret will release a flame jet that is rotating clockwise for 1 turn. When it hits a foe, it applies burning and slow. Duration of the conditions increases with the charge count.Detonating the turret with the F-key will create a blinding smoke combo field.

Supply Crate -> Assembly TurretThe new mechanic doesn't really work with the current elite skill anymore, since turrets no longer auto attack. Instead, we get a new elite turret, which will function as a small factory that will create small mechanical creatures that attack enemies in the area. Number and strength of the minions created by it increase with the charge count.Detonating the turret with the F-key will grant a barrier to nearby allies.

The toolbelt skill stays unchanged.The trait system could also get enhanced to work with this new mechanic, like adding more maximal charges or making turrets collect charges faster. I would still keep the trait that creates a reflecting bubble and makes turrets pulse boons in the area.

Honestly, it'd be super cool if Turrets had a design that was dependent on your Race.

So Asura turrets would look like the hi-tech ones the Inquest use.

Sylvari turrets would look like their racial skill plant turret thing.

Charr turrets would look like their various tanks/cannons.

With Human and Norn also getting some unique race themed looks (From what I can remember, I'm not sure if I've seen anything particularly "Turret-like" from Human and Norn)

As far as turrets themselves go:

I'd want them to stay auto-attacking. That's like the core idea behind independent turrets, they control a zone because they shoot at whatever comes into their range. Your suggested non-auto attacking turrets sound like glorified "Mines" (In the sense of how Engie's in-game Mines are manually detonated, rather than actual mines or the mines that enemy factions use that auto-detonate in proximity) sitting around doing nothing until you tell them to do something.

However, overcharge being the activated skill rather than detonation would be welcome, especially as it would make maintaining them more beneficial (Especially Healing Turret which is notable because the best way to get healing from it is to plop it down and insta-detonate it while its Water Field is active for the AoE heal combo...)

For turret changes, I'd like to see:

Healing Turret - No regen on the self heal, but an increased heal amount. Periodic AoE pulse healing and Water Field with no Regen 5 targets. Overcharge: Big heal, cleanse conditions, apply Regen 10 targets CD of like 30-40s.

Rifle Turret - Raw damage, no condi's at all. Shoots targets with piercing shots. Overcharge: Increased fire rate and damage output, attacks also shoot an additional round.

Flame Turret - Reduced power damage, longer Burn (At least 3s burn duration so it can maintain 100% burn uptime) causes a Smoke field upon deployment. Overcharge: Instead of shooting flames in a cone, it shoots fireballs that have increased range and splash in an AoE around the target, burning duration is increased.

Chemical Turret - I like the idea of this instead of the Net turret. Though, I'd see it as something that shoots globs of chemicals at a target that leaves a patch of gloop on the ground (Similar to how Fanged Iboga pet pukes on stuff), impact and patch of gloop applies poison and vulnerability with the patch applying it every interval (Interval of 1s). Overcharge: Increases the splash size and thus the ground patch. Causes 2 stacks of poison and vulnerability per instance. Also applies random Boons to allies in the area (Swiftness, Vigor, Might, Fury)

Toolbelt skill Acidic Mist releases a PBAoE spray of chemicals that strips boons off enemies and cleanses conditions from allies every 1s interval for 4s.

Rocket Turret - Shoots rockets at enemies with higher than other turrets ranges, attack rate improved to 3s interval down from 4s. Overcharge: Fires salvos of smaller missiles every interval at up to 5 targets in range. Each missile can hit up to 3 targets. 3 missiles per salvo. Interval is 1s.

Toolbelt skill Rocket applies knockdown.

Thumper Turret - Deals damage in a PBAoE and applies Cripple. Overcharge: Increased attack rate and attacks also apply Barrier to allies in the area.

@Taril.8619 said:

I kinda don't want turrets to be based on race, simply because I prefer the mechanical aesthetics of them and my main engineer is a Sylvari. Would feel pretty bad if I end up with plant turrets.

The problem I see with turrets keeping auto attacking is that they probably will never be allowed to be actually good in any game mode, just like they are right now. Because they might potentially be too good in PvP. I think we need a deeper mechanical change to them to allow them to perform well.

The turreteer wants to place the turrets in combat and keep them alive

Which is contradictive to them actually being useful in WvW, because its exactly why they dont work. Static combat and janky mechanics that lag behind the player does not work good in GW2. It's the same reason warrior banners has been sidelined, it's the same reason "traps" are barely used as traps but rather melee AoE, it's why the engineer heal turret is the only turret used and it's instantly destroyed again. You simply cannot repair turrets in WvW or "keep them alive" where you placed it. Because it's a literal death sentence.

How would one fix that? I honestly have no idea. I dont think it's fixable. It's why Anet made the scrapper - the gyros are just viable turrets. We know this because unlike the actual turrets, Anet fixed the gyros to make them viable. That way we could forget all about those crappy turrets and Anet could avoid fixing them.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

I agree that WvW is a really tough challenge, maybe too hard to make turrets viable in that game mode. They are still a minion type in the end and all minion types struggle in WvW because of the huge blob fights with AoE being thrown everywhere. Ranger pets are constantly dead, necromancers can't summon minions without them dying immediately, etc.

But I think we can at least try to make turrets viable in PvP and PvE. Then they would at least have a place in some game modes. Currently, turrets are absolutely terrible everywhere.

@Kodama.6453 said:I kinda don't want turrets to be based on race, simply because I prefer the mechanical aesthetics of them and my main engineer is a Sylvari. Would feel pretty bad if I end up with plant turrets.

Maybe some plant-mech hybrid? Or mechanical plants instead?

Either way, some Race based flavour would be cool as opposed to the current meh aethstetics or being forced into something Charr like.

@Kodama.6453 said:The problem I see with turrets keeping auto attacking is that they probably will never be allowed to be actually good in any game mode, just like they are right now. Because they might potentially be too good in PvP. I think we need a deeper mechanical change to them to allow them to perform well.

They could always be decent in PvE, much like Necro minions which are meta for Power Necros.

It'd just be PvP/WvW where they will fall a little bit flat because of things like how OP they could be for contesting control points or just how meh in general most things are in blob wars...

Though at least in WvW, having turrets that are worth keeping up would at least provide potential use of Experimental Turret because boon generation. The only thing that would be missing is some form of interaction to allow the turrets to actually keep up with the blob... Which I'll get onto later in this post...

@"Dawdler.8521" said:Static combat and janky mechanics that lag behind the player does not work good in GW2. It's the same reason warrior banners has been sidelined, it's the same reason "traps" are barely used as traps but rather melee AoE

I'd point out that Traps are used as melee AoE due to the nature of them being required to have an enemy stand inside them. Which, when they're a big glowy red circle, is never going to happen as an actual "Trap"

It's the same thing with Necro Staff's Marks, you have to place them on top of the enemy, because no-one's going to run into the giant red circle.

As far as empowering turrets with the mobility required by something like WvW... It's possible to put in some synergy with Tool Kit to allow repositioning of turrets.

Since, Tool Kit is already themed to have Turret support (Due to healing turrets with its AA's)... If you could do stuff like pull your Turrets to you with Magnet (With reduced recharge when targetting your own turrets) and change the interact effect of turrets from detonation to picking them up while having the kit equipped (Replacing your #1 with deploying the turret in front of you), maybe even turn Box of Crap into something that lets you gather up your turrets to move multiple at once.

This could allow for someone to keep moving their turrets with the flow of the fight, without having to just destroy them and wait for their CD's again (Which is often best anyway because outside of their Overcharge upon deployment they're pretty meh anyway)

Unrelated additional idea:

I was thinking about a replacement for Thumper Turret for something Condi based, so that with my previous post, there would be 2 Power turrets (Rifle + Rocket), 2 Condi turrets (Flame and this new one) and 1 Hybrid turret (Chemical). So I present:

Sawblade Turret - Shoots piercing sawblades at enemies stacking bleeds on them. Overcharge: Faster attack speed, shoots 3 sawblades in a cone pattern.

Toolbelt skill Buzz Saw uses electromagnets to cause 5 sawblades to spin around you for a few seconds, dealing damage and applying bleed on each hit.

I wouldn't be surprised if ANet gave turrets the treatment they gave traps on thief - remove them completely and give us something different and new instead.And I can't say no if that's the plan.

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Dawdler.8521" said:

ANet doesn't give a damn about Engi turrets, kinda looks like a mindset: "if it ain't broken and nobody uses it, don't touch it".

@"Dawdler.8521" said:Static combat and janky mechanics that lag behind the player does not work good in GW2. It's the same reason warrior banners has been sidelined, it's the same reason "traps" are barely used as traps but rather melee AoE

@"Taril.8619" said:I'd point out that Traps are used as melee AoE due to the nature of them being required to have an enemy stand inside them. Which, when they're a big glowy red circle, is never going to happen as an actual "Trap"You just pointed out why turrets dont work either lol.

@"Taril.8619" said:

I'd want them to stay auto-attacking. That's like the core idea behind independent turrets, they control a zone because they shoot at whatever comes into their range. Your suggested non-auto attacking turrets sound like glorified "Mines" (In the sense of how Engie's in-game Mines are manually detonated, rather than actual mines or the mines that enemy factions use that auto-detonate in proximity) sitting around doing nothing until you tell them to do something.

Rereading this thread here, I have to correct something: What I described doesn't work like mines and mines actually do work like actual mines, meaning they auto-detonate in proximity. Either you are not familiar with engineer in general or you simply never use the mine skill.

All mines, these created by bunker down as well as from the skill "Throw Mine" are activating when an enemy walks over them. Throw Mine just has the extra option to detonate it remotely.

@Taril.8619 said:Honestly, it'd be super cool if Turrets had a design that was dependent on your Race.

So Asura turrets would look like the hi-tech ones the Inquest use.

Sylvari turrets would look like their racial skill plant turret thing.

Charr turrets would look like their various tanks/cannons.

This ! Except for Charrs. Turrets are already Charr themed.

@Taril.8619 said:I'd want them to stay auto-attacking. That's like the core idea behind independent turrets, they control a zone because they shoot at whatever comes into their range. Your suggested non-auto attacking turrets sound like glorified "Mines" (In the sense of how Engie's in-game Mines are manually detonated, rather than actual mines or the mines that enemy factions use that auto-detonate in proximity) sitting around doing nothing until you tell them to do something.

However, overcharge being the activated skill rather than detonation would be welcome, especially as it would make maintaining them more beneficial (Especially Healing Turret which is notable because the best way to get healing from it is to plop it down and insta-detonate it while its Water Field is active for the AoE heal combo...)

I agree.

There could be all sort of turrets by the way.

Healing turret (with condition cleanse), minigun turret, flamethrower turret, fishnet launcher turret, thumper turret, alchemical spray turret (throwing toxic glue balls), shield turret (destroy projectiles), ...

@"Dawdler.8521" said:The turreteer wants to place the turrets in combat and keep them alive

Which is contradictive to them actually being useful in WvW, because its exactly why they dont work. Static combat and janky mechanics that lag behind the player does not work good in GW2. It's the same reason warrior banners has been sidelined, it's the same reason "traps" are barely used as traps but rather melee AoE, it's why the engineer heal turret is the only turret used and it's instantly destroyed again. You simply cannot repair turrets in WvW or "keep them alive" where you placed it. Because it's a literal death sentence.

How would one fix that? I honestly have no idea. I dont think it's fixable. It's why Anet made the scrapper - the gyros are just viable turrets. We know this because unlike the actual turrets, Anet fixed the gyros to make them viable. That way we could forget all about those crappy turrets and Anet could avoid fixing them.

I mean, one way to do it is to take inspiration from TF2. In that game the Engineer can pick up his deployables to put them down elsewhere. Why not let GW2s engineer do the same? Maybe even let the turrets overcharge upon being placed down if they were carries long enough. I think the bigger issue is that theyre inherently passive. And passive gameplay is something Anet shies away from.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Dawdler.8521" said:

The turreteer wants to place the turrets in combat and keep them alive

Which is contradictive to them actually being

useful

in WvW, because its exactly why they dont work. Static combat and janky mechanics that lag behind the player does not work good in GW2. It's the same reason warrior banners has been sidelined, it's the same reason "traps" are barely used as traps but rather melee AoE, it's why the engineer heal turret is the only turret used and it's instantly destroyed again. You simply

cannot

repair turrets in WvW or "keep them alive" where you placed it. Because it's a literal death sentence.

How would one fix that? I honestly have no idea. I dont think it's fixable. It's why Anet made the scrapper - the gyros are just viable turrets. We know this because unlike the actual turrets, Anet fixed the gyros to make them viable. That way we could forget all about those crappy turrets and Anet could avoid fixing them.

Picking up your turrets, it quickly become a hazzle to place and pick up the second after because the group is already far away. Even in a 1v1, what are you going to do when the enemy is an 1800 range soulbeast that simply kite your turrets? Throw the turret at them out of anger?

The only way I can see them maybe usable if you have the capability to surprise the enemy with them, such as placed turrets burrowing into the ground/stealthing and acting similar to traps. It'd be just as useless for zerging but then it might be workable in smallscale as a surprise preset defense. With behaviour similar to traps that would also make it fire-and-forget, avoiding the stupid blasting-or-pickup mechanic and reducing cooldown the more prepared you are.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

The turreteer wants to place the turrets in combat and keep them alive

Which is contradictive to them actually being

useful

in WvW, because its exactly why they dont work. Static combat and janky mechanics that lag behind the player does not work good in GW2. It's the same reason warrior banners has been sidelined, it's the same reason "traps" are barely used as traps but rather melee AoE, it's why the engineer heal turret is the only turret used and it's instantly destroyed again. You simply

cannot

repair turrets in WvW or "keep them alive" where you placed it. Because it's a literal death sentence.

How would one fix that? I honestly have no idea. I dont think it's fixable. It's why Anet made the scrapper - the gyros are just viable turrets. We know this because unlike the actual turrets, Anet fixed the gyros to make them viable. That way we could forget all about those crappy turrets and Anet could avoid fixing them.

I mean could go the Rescue Ranger route and let the Engineer pick up at range. There are solutions for it. And eh, if youre facing a Soulbeast, youre rather screwed anyway.

The only way I can see them maybe usable if you have the capability to surprise the enemy with them, such as placed turrets burrowing into the ground/stealthing and acting similar to traps. It'd be just as useless for zerging but then it might be workable in smallscale as a surprise preset defense. With behaviour similar to traps that would also make it fire-and-forget, avoiding the stupid blasting-or-pickup mechanic and reducing cooldown the more prepared you are.

At that point theyre just traps, and traps arent very interesting. We need something to make turrets less passive.

It would be nice to pick them up to move them (maybe like ranger spirits but instead of teleporting you deploy them back at same health) and perhaps have them hit a specific target but I don't anticipate them being changed.

One of my guildmates climbed the ladder to the top in the core days with turret bunker and is supposedly one of the reasons turrets were nerfed. You were able to fully bunker a point and do damage since turrets have independent weapon strength (power = 2389 ; no crits) similar to mesmer phantasms and ranger pets.

edit: for PvE the turrets' health could be greater ; the turret trait has decent uptime on might generation but not so much on fury/protection (thumper turret).

@Infusion.7149 said:It would be nice to pick them up to move them (maybe like ranger spirits but instead of teleporting you deploy them back at same health) and perhaps have them hit a specific target but I don't anticipate them being changed.

One of my guildmates climbed the ladder to the top in the core days with turret bunker and is supposedly one of the reasons turrets were nerfed. You were able to fully bunker a point and do damage since turrets have independent weapon strength (power = 2389) similar to mesmer phantasms and ranger pets.

And I think this can best be solved by tying the damage of the turrets to the stats of the engineer.Like I described in my rework suggestion, if we let rifle turret scale with power and precision and rocket turret, too, then going full bunker would be completely uneffective, since these turrets wouldn't deal damage anymore.

And then there is the point that turrets should exceed at protecting an area, which is strong in PvP. Hence why I suggested that instead of making turrets presurring enemies on nodes the entire time, we give them short but powerful bursts.

On a side note, somebody mentioned TF2 and it'd be cool to have a teleport turret, since portal isn't a specific mesmer thing anymore. Just an engi's wet dream.

My suggestion on how to rework turrets:

Make all the TF2 references more then references and make turrets upgradable by hitting it with the wrench!

@Kulvar.1239 said:

This ! Except for Charrs. Turrets are already Charr themed.

I would love new and updated turrets for my Charr Engineer. The Charr turret in the OP looks so cool. Something like the Glyph system from WoW would be so nice for this in GW2. That way it would be optional and available for all races. But, probably more effort than it's worth. Optional racial gyros would be amazing, too.

I'm pretty much pro-any change to Turrets. I used to play a lot of Engineer in Warhammer Online. It was fun to not only be able to build useful turrets (only one at a time though), but also useful structures that had various affects. GW2's Engineer is a lot of fun and have several things going for it. Building is not one of them. I really like your new Supply Drop to Assembly Turret suggestion.

Maybe starting with one at a time.

Rifle turret, increase the range, scales slightly with equipment stats 10~20%? Fire support, attacks enemies that are tagged by the engineer so no more auto shooting that can mess things up. Toolbelt overtune turret gains might, fury and quickness for a small time period (depends on pve, pvp, wvw), but is destroyed afterwards.

One pipedream I've had for the longest was to turn turrets into stationary kits with a wider array of skills and usable by anyone much like the old mortar.

Edit: While keeping the automated function when not in use.

Can we have the new gatling turret that charr use on the new map please? Also the rocket launcher instead of the mprtar would be nice

@Makuragee.3058 said:Can we have the new gatling turret that charr use on the new map please? Also the rocket launcher instead of the mprtar would be nice

Yeah, I thought the same after seeing them. This is how our rifle turret should look like...Actually made another thread saying that this new story episode was the absolute best opportunity to give us a turret rework. Updating their skins, like giving us that gatling turret. And especially with so many Charr engineers using turrets on the map....

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Makuragee.3058 said:Can we have the new gatling turret that charr use on the new map please? Also the rocket launcher instead of the mprtar would be nice

i feel like we might see a turret buff on the next balance pass

@ukuni.8745 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Makuragee.3058 said:Can we have the new gatling turret that charr use on the new map please? Also the rocket launcher instead of the mprtar would be nice

Do we have any idea when this is going to happen? Seems like a while the last real balance patch happened and if I remember correctly, then they stated that these will happen more frequently now.

@Kodama.6453 said:

@ukuni.8745 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Makuragee.3058 said:Can we have the new gatling turret that charr use on the new map please? Also the rocket launcher instead of the mprtar would be nice

If I had to guess I'd say sometime between the 3v3 mini league and the next conquest league